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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 45

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HigoSeco
Profile Joined December 2010
Chile232 Posts
August 21 2011 17:51 GMT
#881
mules are way too good compared to chronoboosts and terrans can also scan and drop supplies with their orbitals.
I hope in HotS they give protoss another skill for their nexus because at the moment every protoss i see has full energy on his nexus in the late game because there's really not that much you can do with it.
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
August 21 2011 17:51 GMT
#882
On August 22 2011 02:43 Figgy wrote:
I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.

Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.

Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.

Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.


Late game PvT wasnt balanced which is why they made the change.
MeLo
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia192 Posts
August 21 2011 17:53 GMT
#883
I think the problem is Protoss tech path regarding the 111.

Maybe a HoTS idea but let us build an Observer from the Nexus instead of the Robo. If we didn't have to get a Robo incase of cloaked banshees I think it'd be easier to deal with.
eloist
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1017 Posts
August 21 2011 17:55 GMT
#884
On August 22 2011 02:43 Figgy wrote:
I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.

Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.

Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.

Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.

Talk about a one sided perspective. All this changes had merit.
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
August 21 2011 17:57 GMT
#885
Nerf marines and pick up the pieces. It's the only way. So many attempts to work around the fact that they made marines too strong :<
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
August 21 2011 17:57 GMT
#886
Warp-in storms were an abomination that should never come back. They were not only ridiculously strong but also much too forgiving.

Protoss just needs some help against 1-1-1.
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
August 21 2011 17:57 GMT
#887
On August 22 2011 02:55 eloist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 02:43 Figgy wrote:
I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.

Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.

Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.

Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.

Talk about a one sided perspective. All this changes had merit.


What exactly was the merit of the Warpgate nerf? I mean, even pros think it was pointless, and didn't achieve what it was supposed to do.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
IAttackYou
Profile Joined August 2010
United States330 Posts
August 21 2011 17:58 GMT
#888
The fact is if you see 1-1-1 with bunch of marines, it is generally smart to tech to colossus with few immortals to deal with it. If the Terran is going all in, you should respect it and tech vs it accordingly.
I'm not a nub, I'm gosu of tomorrow
Figgy
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1788 Posts
August 21 2011 17:58 GMT
#889
On August 22 2011 02:55 eloist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 02:43 Figgy wrote:
I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.

Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.

Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.

Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.

Talk about a one sided perspective. All this changes had merit.


Sure, they had merit. But now Terran and Zerg are free to tech up and expand to whatever they want without any issue of dying in the early game. This is the reason the 1-1-1 is so effective, because it now survives rushes without any problems.

Also, with Terrans becoming insanely better at micro late game PvT is starting to become a huge joke. Ghosts outrange and out utility High Templars in a huge way.
Bug Fixes Fixed an issue where, when facing a SlayerS terran, completing a hatchery would cause a medivac and 8 marines to randomly spawn nearby and attack it.
Korlinni
Profile Joined April 2011
125 Posts
August 21 2011 17:58 GMT
#890
they need to un-nerf warpgate and then do something about the range of EMP. I also think medivacs may be a bit strong. But emp being AOE and having a bigger range than Feedback needs to be changed.
Impossible is a word to be found only in the dictionary of fools!
Veritassong
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada393 Posts
August 21 2011 17:59 GMT
#891
watching iem finals is exactly why I stopped playing sc2. repetition of same builds successfully. makes my heart bleed
人族英巴
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
August 21 2011 18:01 GMT
#892
On August 22 2011 02:58 IAttackYou wrote:
The fact is if you see 1-1-1 with bunch of marines, it is generally smart to tech to colossus with few immortals to deal with it. If the Terran is going all in, you should respect it and tech vs it accordingly.

You can only get 1 collo out without range. It's not enough.

There's a reason none of the top Protoss players even bother trying collo: they've tried it in practice and it simply doesn't work. It works on ladder because the Terrans are bad and execute the push too late.
eloist
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1017 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 18:03:14
August 21 2011 18:01 GMT
#893
On August 22 2011 02:58 Figgy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 02:55 eloist wrote:
On August 22 2011 02:43 Figgy wrote:
I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.

Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.

Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.

Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.

Talk about a one sided perspective. All this changes had merit.


Sure, they had merit. But now Terran and Zerg are free to tech up and expand to whatever they want without any issue of dying in the early game. This is the reason the 1-1-1 is so effective, because it now survives rushes without any problems.

Also, with Terrans becoming insanely better at micro late game PvT is starting to become a huge joke. Ghosts outrange and out utility High Templars in a huge way.

Builds like 3 gate pressure are still difficult for me to deal with when I play terran, it's not as clear cut as you present it.

Protoss late game is very vulnerable to ghost now as it stands I agree. However, the way to go is not to un-fix all those other issues but open up another path such as making carrier play more viable. Would make chronoboost useful late game as well.

As for the the 1-1-1, the Phoenix opening seems very promising. It delayed Puma until he had a second Raven out. MC didn't really capitalize on the fact that he sniped it with DTs though. The dark shrine was not a worthwhile investment like that.
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
August 21 2011 18:01 GMT
#894
On August 22 2011 02:58 Figgy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 02:55 eloist wrote:
On August 22 2011 02:43 Figgy wrote:
I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.

Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.

Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.

Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.

Talk about a one sided perspective. All this changes had merit.


Sure, they had merit. But now Terran and Zerg are free to tech up and expand to whatever they want without any issue of dying in the early game. This is the reason the 1-1-1 is so effective, because it now survives rushes without any problems.

Also, with Terrans becoming insanely better at micro late game PvT is starting to become a huge joke. Ghosts outrange and out utility High Templars in a huge way.


It was a much funnier joke when protoss was invulnerable to drops after a certain point in the game, and was able to whittle down a terran army to red and orange health (even with good storm dodging) by the time terran reached toss base.
And sure, ghosts >>> templar, but blizzard never said that the spellcasters of each race were meant to be similarly powerful.
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
Barkziee
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom138 Posts
August 21 2011 18:02 GMT
#895
On August 22 2011 03:01 eloist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 02:58 Figgy wrote:
On August 22 2011 02:55 eloist wrote:
On August 22 2011 02:43 Figgy wrote:
I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.

Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.

Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.

Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.

Talk about a one sided perspective. All this changes had merit.


Sure, they had merit. But now Terran and Zerg are free to tech up and expand to whatever they want without any issue of dying in the early game. This is the reason the 1-1-1 is so effective, because it now survives rushes without any problems.

Also, with Terrans becoming insanely better at micro late game PvT is starting to become a huge joke. Ghosts outrange and out utility High Templars in a huge way.

Builds like 3 gate pressure are still difficult for me to deal with when I play terran, it's not as clear cut as you present it.

Protoss late game is very vulnerable to ghost now as it stands I agree. However, the way to go is not to un-fix all those other issues but open up another path such as making carrier play more viable. Would make chronoboost useful late game as well.


Chrono is already useful late game, you chrono shit and it happens faster. You dont need a carrier buff to make it useful.
branflakes14
Profile Joined July 2010
2082 Posts
August 21 2011 18:03 GMT
#896
I think exploring Fleet Bacon tech should be the top priority for Protoss players at the moment since it's just about all there really is left. Remember, while Carrier damage output is quite frankly pretty shitty and they can take a long time to get, Interceptors have 3.2 health per 1 mineral (the nearest any other unit has is the Zealot with 1.5 per mineral) and seriously mess up Marine AI if they can't reach the Carrier (which has a maximum of 14 range). Interceptors are practically a huge cheap damage shield against Marines.
Williammm
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia908 Posts
August 21 2011 18:03 GMT
#897
After watching finals of IEM, I feel the only thing stopping MC from holding the all in was the PDD. Having PDD basically denies close to half of the Protoss' army from doing anything (stalkers). Granted the PDD needs to be in a good position, but mixed with tanks, the protoss can't really do anything about the PDD without taking lots of damage. The phoenix would have done it if there wasn't so many marines...

Overall pdd is fine, since in BW zerg had dark swarm and that was doable. Main problem is PDD LASTS FOR 3 MINUTES! regens energy too... and denies stalker/phoenix attempts to take it down or the raven down.

Making PDD last 30 seconds would have made 1/1/1 all in more managable
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
August 21 2011 18:04 GMT
#898
On August 22 2011 03:01 TheAntZ wrote:
And sure, ghosts >>> templar, but blizzard never said that the spellcasters of each race were meant to be similarly powerful.

But in this case whoever wins the caster war invariably wins the game. So ghosts just being plain better is kind of a problem.

If gateway armies were overall > bio and ghosts were evening it up, that would of course be just fine.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
August 21 2011 18:04 GMT
#899
Ghosts are like the ultimate anti-templar unit, saying that ghosts counter templars is like saying roaches counter zealots. Its intended.

Thats why protoss has the colossus option and can juggle between the two techpaths.
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 18:07:57
August 21 2011 18:04 GMT
#900
On August 22 2011 03:01 TheAntZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 02:58 Figgy wrote:
On August 22 2011 02:55 eloist wrote:
On August 22 2011 02:43 Figgy wrote:
I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.

Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.

Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.

Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.

Talk about a one sided perspective. All this changes had merit.


Sure, they had merit. But now Terran and Zerg are free to tech up and expand to whatever they want without any issue of dying in the early game. This is the reason the 1-1-1 is so effective, because it now survives rushes without any problems.

Also, with Terrans becoming insanely better at micro late game PvT is starting to become a huge joke. Ghosts outrange and out utility High Templars in a huge way.



And sure, ghosts >>> templar, but blizzard never said that the spellcasters of each race were meant to be similarly powerful.

That's true, but the argument (as he presents it) has little to do with equivalent powers of spellcasters (though, frankly, when one caster completely invalidates the power of another...), but rather has to do with "what can protoss do to deal with a powerful terran army, the analysis of comparing spellcasters because more valid.

On August 22 2011 03:04 Bagi wrote:
Ghosts are like the ultimate anti-templar unit, saying that ghosts counter templars is like saying roaches counter zealots. Its intended.

Thats why protoss has the colossus option and can juggle between the two techpaths.


You make it seem as though "juggling between the two techpaths" is an easy to accomplish route - unfortunately the two different tech paths a: are in opposite teching directions, b: require different buildings to build said units c: are costly to tech to, particularly in reference to the time of teching.

By the time you have spent back-teching (particularly to colossi), terran has had a significant amount of time / resources to have a strong army anyways.

It's not quite the same as, say for zerg, going from a roach heavy army, to a ling muta army (since both only require larvae and getting a spire is pretty standard for most zerg players)
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