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Regarding Mules, I'm not sure why no one has brought up yet (in my overview of the posts at least) that the Terran Macro mechanic has to be looked at in comparison to the other races.
Mules are needed, especially early game so that Terran can keep up with the economy of Protoss and Zerg.
Terrans have one of the most inefficient builders. At the early game, and I mean Very low supply counts. Terran may have 2-3 workers building supply/production facility/refinery. Granted the refinery is a one time build thing. But the point is, when Terrans are setting up their base, they lose a lot of SCV mining time with each worker that is tied up.
Zergs can drone hard through Injects. Although they lose a drone every time they morph a building, Zergs do not have to worry about production facilities early game as much. Most of the drones if they are used for buildings, are invested into Tech buildings (only need One) or Base Defence.
Protoss can Chrono Probes out quickly. They also have by far the most efficient builders. Drop and go. They have to worry about pylon grids and sim-city with that in mind but that's another issue. This is about how time becomes tied up in workers.
Mules are absolutely necessary early-mid game so that Terrans can keep up with the economy of the two other races, as they do not have anything other methods of increasing SCV production (Comparing 1 Base to 1 Base of course).
I think the issue that most people have is late game when Terrans can drop multiple Mules down from several OC's into a new Expansion. However if you look at the other races, it's not as if they're helpless. There's nothing stopping a Zerg from hard droning or re-droning, and Protoss can still chrono probes out.
Not to mention that each Macro mechanic serves a different purpose in the later stages of the game. Zerg injects and storing larva can help outmacro the other races, while later on they can also remax and reinforce an army insanely fast. While Protoss can use Chrono to help production speed as well as upgrade speed. Terrans gain extra income, supply drops or scans. Each race's macro mechanic in the end serves a different purpose.
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On August 22 2011 01:30 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 01:24 Lordwar wrote:
You guys can make also more than one warp prism, two add big enough warping field to spawn lots of units at once.
Stop thinking warp prism has harrasment, start to think of it more like full out assault frontier. Are you serious?!?! Try it out once and you will see how this is never ever going to work.
The fact that it is not utilized well for now, is not a prove of inefficiency.
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On August 20 2011 23:34 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 15:56 reneg wrote:On August 20 2011 15:43 Salteador Neo wrote:
Since 1-1-1 and pretty much every terran all-in is way too strong because of marines, I would give them -5 initial hp while buffing the +10hp upgrade to +15 so they keep being so good at everything later.
Banshees could need a nerf as well IMHO, since they are a better harrasment unit than anything protoss has (flying DTs) that actually do very well in a straight up fight, since protoss AA is terribad. Something like -10 or -20 hp to make it more clear that its a specialist harrass unit or used only to snipe stuff with their sick DPS.
Infestor also needs some work (has been discused to boredom) and it would be cool to have a decent reason to get carrier tech, even if just for the lulz in multiplayer games (Flux Vanes? VRs are crap anyway...). I feel like you're lacking a general theory through your thread. Not to attack your ideas, but let's think about them constructively? 1. I don't know if it's necessarily the marines that are the overpowered unit. What could be done instead of just moving the HP around (while discussed earlier in the thread, and possibly a good idea), it might be good to consider something like the u-15 upgrade in BW (increased the range of the marine). I feel like drastically reducing the HP of the marine by 1 whole ling hit would also drastically change the state of the game in TvZ. Throw in fungals, and you stim, and you literally kill all your marines (if you don't have the HP upgrade). 2. Banshees - are we trying to pigeonhole them into a harass unit too much? they already move pretty slowly (in comparison to other harass units), and while they can cloak, they still cost a lot of gas, and build comparatively very slowly. People often say that "DTs are countered by spore crawlers / turrets." and that's why they "suck" as a harass unit. Just because they can be seen, doesn't mean they still don't 1shot workers. So if you can catch a player off guard, you can make out with a fair few worker kills. A similar vein with the banshee, 1 photon cannon / spore / turret shuts down harass at a particular mineral line. 3. I'm unconvinced that the infestor needs a lot of work. Yes, it is an extremely powerful caster unit, but ghosts and templar are equally powerful. Feedback and EMP can do massive amounts of 'damage' even if it's just depleting the energy in the infestor. (As for the VR comment, i don't know what to say to that, I feel like VRs can deal massive amounts of damage i certain situations, esp PvZ). I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, i'm just trying to provide counter arguments to the ideas you've put forward, so we can flush them out and come up with something actually good. Yeah I also thought about the range upgrade to marines from BW, but I feel that would be too many uogrades already in one building (4 in the tech lab), and making marines a bag of "must-have" upgrades. Problem with Banshees is that they are just too good at a-moving over a marine swarm against protoss IMO. They are already a sick harass unit that ends TvPs and TvTs by itself if not hard-countered fast. Static defense isn't that great either because of their range. Infestors are just nonsense IMO. Most cost-effective unit in the game in the macro race that FE's with no risk. Counters everything in the protoss arsenal but HT, and comes into the play with energy to fungal. They were already decent before the buff but they were overlooked since everyone focused in the early game because of stim and 4gate timings (and the imba QQ). The infestor and some terran stuff might be needing a nerf in the near future for the sake of balance IMO, just like a lot other stuff has been drastically changed over the past year. Apparently Blizz doesn't like to go "gently" and delicate in their balance changes. Like the nerfs to reapers, VR, WG timing... etc. Killing flies with cannon shots. Wrong way to go for sure IMO. They overdid it a few times and broke the game in different ways. Btw nice answers and forgive my not-so-good english 
IEM spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Quoting myself because Puma just defeated MC game 1 with Marine/Banshee/Tank, after the cloak harass failed epicly and the first all-in with scv pull was defended
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well i have an idea for terran, its like a warp prism.
see warp prism is pretty fast but weak. terran has barracks its slow but strong
so what u do is you take 1-2 baracks and a medivac with marines and you land the baracks in his base and start making marines while your marines kill his workers. and its going to do so much damage
/sarcasm
seriously though, wtf?
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This topic is too vast to contain in a mere thread.
It should have its own section in SC2 forums, IMO.
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On August 22 2011 01:39 Eps wrote:Terrans have one of the most inefficient builders. At the early game, and I mean Very low supply counts. Terran may have 2-3 workers building supply/production facility/refinery. Granted the refinery is a one time build thing. But the point is, Terrans are setting up our base, they lose a lot of SCV mining time with each worker that is tied up.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the rest of what you are saying, but I'm pretty sure terran has a more efficient building system than zerg. Terrans get the workers back when they're done!
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i feel that the range of emp and snipe are too large at 10 and should be reduced to 9, the range of feedback and fungal. The longer range makes it impossible for protoss if terran plays perfectly whereas this change would make it balanced. I cannot understand why blizzard made ghosts' spells with 1 more range than other spells at range 10. in addition ghosts should cost 150/150 again not 200/100 as it makes terran much less gas dependent than other races and favors too heavily the terran with a surplus of minerals thanks to mules.
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feel that the range of emp and snipe are too large at 10 and should be reduced to 9, the range of feedback and fungal. The longer range makes it impossible for protoss if terran plays perfectly whereas this change would make it balanced.
exactly. except i would advocate EMP range 8 because the aoe nature of the spell allows for 2 extra range if you really need to EMP something. That would mean max EMP range 10, max feedback range 9. The 1 extra range makes up for the projectile nature of EMP
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On August 22 2011 01:55 Nehtaro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 01:39 Eps wrote:Terrans have one of the most inefficient builders. At the early game, and I mean Very low supply counts. Terran may have 2-3 workers building supply/production facility/refinery. Granted the refinery is a one time build thing. But the point is, Terrans are setting up our base, they lose a lot of SCV mining time with each worker that is tied up. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the rest of what you are saying, but I'm pretty sure terran has a more efficient building system than zerg. Terrans get the workers back when they're done!
You are correct. I guess that I should have made the comparisons a bit more clear. Yes, Zergs lose their workers after they morph a building. However I feel that they are compensated as they do not have to invest in as much additional production facilities compared to the other two races. Other than a few extra Macro Hatches late game.
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On August 22 2011 01:39 Lordwar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 01:30 H0i wrote:On August 22 2011 01:24 Lordwar wrote:
You guys can make also more than one warp prism, two add big enough warping field to spawn lots of units at once.
Stop thinking warp prism has harrasment, start to think of it more like full out assault frontier. Are you serious?!?! Try it out once and you will see how this is never ever going to work. The fact that it is not utilized well for now, is not a prove of inefficiency.
the thing is, those robos could be making immortals or collussi
On August 22 2011 02:05 NuclearWINtr wrote:
i feel that the range of emp and snipe are too large at 10 and should be reduced to 9, the range of feedback and fungal. The longer range makes it impossible for protoss if terran plays perfectly whereas this change would make it balanced. I cannot understand why blizzard made ghosts' spells with 1 more range than other spells at range 10. in addition ghosts should cost 150/150 again not 200/100 as it makes terran much less gas dependent than other races and favors too heavily the terran with a surplus of minerals thanks to mules.
I think the idea was it freed up more gas for a mech/sky terran type build
ghosts are meant to counter infestors/hts last i checked
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The warp prism is way to fragile considering that it's the only way to play HTs in PvT to avoid getting EMP'd. It should have more HP and no ability to warp in. More like a shuttle.
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200 hp / 1 armor would be nice for prisms
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On August 22 2011 02:11 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 01:55 Nehtaro wrote:On August 22 2011 01:39 Eps wrote:Terrans have one of the most inefficient builders. At the early game, and I mean Very low supply counts. Terran may have 2-3 workers building supply/production facility/refinery. Granted the refinery is a one time build thing. But the point is, Terrans are setting up our base, they lose a lot of SCV mining time with each worker that is tied up. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the rest of what you are saying, but I'm pretty sure terran has a more efficient building system than zerg. Terrans get the workers back when they're done! You are correct. I guess that I should have made the comparisons a bit more clear. Yes, Zergs lose their workers after they morph a building. However I feel that they are compensated as they do not have to invest in as much additional production facilities compared to the other two races. Other than a few extra Macro Hatches late game.
And terran arent compensated in any way hmm?
its hilarious how people can seriously say this kinda shit, can you really only see your races disadvantages?
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ghosts are meant to counter infestors/hts last i checked
but then what's the protoss counter to ghosts? you seem fine with ghosts out ranging them by 3 because they're supposed to counter ht/infestor.. but ghosts give more than just shutting down hts, what is protoss supposed to do about that?
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On August 22 2011 02:19 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:11 Eps wrote:On August 22 2011 01:55 Nehtaro wrote:On August 22 2011 01:39 Eps wrote:Terrans have one of the most inefficient builders. At the early game, and I mean Very low supply counts. Terran may have 2-3 workers building supply/production facility/refinery. Granted the refinery is a one time build thing. But the point is, Terrans are setting up our base, they lose a lot of SCV mining time with each worker that is tied up. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the rest of what you are saying, but I'm pretty sure terran has a more efficient building system than zerg. Terrans get the workers back when they're done! You are correct. I guess that I should have made the comparisons a bit more clear. Yes, Zergs lose their workers after they morph a building. However I feel that they are compensated as they do not have to invest in as much additional production facilities compared to the other two races. Other than a few extra Macro Hatches late game. And terran arent compensated in any way hmm? its hilarious how people can seriously say this kinda shit, can you really only see your races disadvantages?
That was the whole point of his first post...
The mules are there to compensate for this, he just explained why they are needed.
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On August 22 2011 02:22 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:19 TheAntZ wrote:On August 22 2011 02:11 Eps wrote:On August 22 2011 01:55 Nehtaro wrote:On August 22 2011 01:39 Eps wrote:Terrans have one of the most inefficient builders. At the early game, and I mean Very low supply counts. Terran may have 2-3 workers building supply/production facility/refinery. Granted the refinery is a one time build thing. But the point is, Terrans are setting up our base, they lose a lot of SCV mining time with each worker that is tied up. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the rest of what you are saying, but I'm pretty sure terran has a more efficient building system than zerg. Terrans get the workers back when they're done! You are correct. I guess that I should have made the comparisons a bit more clear. Yes, Zergs lose their workers after they morph a building. However I feel that they are compensated as they do not have to invest in as much additional production facilities compared to the other two races. Other than a few extra Macro Hatches late game. And terran arent compensated in any way hmm? its hilarious how people can seriously say this kinda shit, can you really only see your races disadvantages? That was the whole point of his first post... The mules are there to compensate for this, he just explained why they are needed.
oh, then i misunderstood the original post, sorry. It seemed like the typical 'I play terran, do you know how hard my life is?' post
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IEM finals spoilers:
+ Show Spoiler +I feel that any Korean GM vs any Protoss doing the 1/1/1 allin is basically a free win right now.
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+ Show Spoiler +Puma is hardly some random GM...nevertheless he beat MC after MC held the first loll-in, having half MCs worker count. just...silly
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I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.
Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.
Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.
Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.
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On August 22 2011 02:43 Figgy wrote:
I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.
Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.
Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.
Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.
lategame TvP was nowhere near balanced with warpin storms dude, come on
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EPT
