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On August 21 2011 23:40 DoubleReed wrote:I'm not convinced this should happen at all. The fact is that with the upgrade the warp prism is by far the fastest shuttle. It's fragility is due to its incredible speed. It's just that people don't bother to get the speed upgrade right now (as well as getting the obs speed upgrade).
yes with its upgrade.....
this upgrade is costly and in a bad spot for such a fragile unit. If they wanted to see more builds focused on the prism early game they need to move that upgrade to the cybor core or something like that. Until then the idea of having to finish 2 tech trees to have a worth while drop is kinda stupid.
secondly if the prism is justified as balanced due to this upgrade then it needs to be changed, fast moving paper is still paper after all. The prism does not gain its all around usefulness from its dropping ability its the warp in ability that makes it viable and no matter how quick the thing is well its in warp in mode its not going to move. So change the upgrade to do something about the phase where its just sitting in place.......Maybe make it a mobile shield battery, that would be sexy imba ♥
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On August 21 2011 23:54 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 23:47 DoubleReed wrote:On August 21 2011 23:43 H0i wrote:On August 21 2011 23:40 DoubleReed wrote:3) Give the warp prism more life. I'm not convinced this should happen at all. The fact is that with the upgrade the warp prism is by far the fastest shuttle. It's fragility is due to its incredible speed. It's just that people don't bother to get the speed upgrade right now (as well as getting the obs speed upgrade). The warp prism is fragile because it is fast after being upgraded at a building that is expensive and only obtained to get a different upgrade for a very high tier unit? That statement makes totally no sense. Just because you only get the robo bay for colossi doesn't meant that's the only way to do things. The warp prism is so fragile because it is the fastest after you get the speed upgrade. Saying "it's expensive" is a little silly considering that the warp prism doesn't cost gas (at least ventral sacs costs 200 gas). The real point though is that its the fastest shuttle. It should be the most fragile. Still that argument makes no sense. Things don't need to be fragile just because they are fast after being upgraded.
example: broodwars shuttle. Ridiculously fast (after the upgrade), but still durable enough that it wont die to a lyote cough.
The thing about it was though that it didnt reach max acceleration the moment it started moving, though (i think) the warp prism does. Thats why players had to keep moving the shuttle around while their reaver/templar were shitting on worker lines, so they could make a quick escape.
Perhaps increasing the WP life and turning its acceleration to shit we can see some nice micro as a result
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On August 21 2011 23:47 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 23:17 MockHamill wrote:
I think the game balance is very good right now, I think only a few minor adjustments are needed
1) The bluflame bonus should only apply to normal light units, not vs workers.
2) Fungal needs to have a slight damage nerf.
3) Infested Terran should cost slightly more energy to cast.
3) Snipe should do bonus damage vs Massive Units in order to better balance TvZ late game. Every single one of these changes benefits Terran... I take it TvZ is your worst MU and TvP is your best?
No my TvP and TvZ is equal. TvT is my weakest matchup.
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On August 22 2011 00:01 TheAntZ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 21 2011 23:54 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 23:47 DoubleReed wrote:On August 21 2011 23:43 H0i wrote:On August 21 2011 23:40 DoubleReed wrote:3) Give the warp prism more life. I'm not convinced this should happen at all. The fact is that with the upgrade the warp prism is by far the fastest shuttle. It's fragility is due to its incredible speed. It's just that people don't bother to get the speed upgrade right now (as well as getting the obs speed upgrade). The warp prism is fragile because it is fast after being upgraded at a building that is expensive and only obtained to get a different upgrade for a very high tier unit? That statement makes totally no sense. Just because you only get the robo bay for colossi doesn't meant that's the only way to do things. The warp prism is so fragile because it is the fastest after you get the speed upgrade. Saying "it's expensive" is a little silly considering that the warp prism doesn't cost gas (at least ventral sacs costs 200 gas). The real point though is that its the fastest shuttle. It should be the most fragile. Still that argument makes no sense. Things don't need to be fragile just because they are fast after being upgraded. example: broodwars shuttle. Ridiculously fast (after the upgrade), but still durable enough that it wont die to a lyote cough. The thing about it was though that it didnt reach max acceleration the moment it started moving, though (i think) the warp prism does. Thats why players had to keep moving the shuttle around while their reaver/templar were shitting on worker lines, so they could make a quick escape. Perhaps increasing the WP life and turning its acceleration to shit we can see some nice micro as a result Nice idea.
I think they should buff WP and see how it will be used. If it is OP in some way, they will nerf it accordigly. PS: shield battery idea sounds interesting, but i havent thought about that much.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 22 2011 00:04 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 23:47 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 21 2011 23:17 MockHamill wrote:
I think the game balance is very good right now, I think only a few minor adjustments are needed
1) The bluflame bonus should only apply to normal light units, not vs workers.
2) Fungal needs to have a slight damage nerf.
3) Infested Terran should cost slightly more energy to cast.
3) Snipe should do bonus damage vs Massive Units in order to better balance TvZ late game. Every single one of these changes benefits Terran... I take it TvZ is your worst MU and TvP is your best? No my TvP and TvZ is equal. TvT is my weakest matchup.
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On August 21 2011 23:47 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 23:17 MockHamill wrote:
I think the game balance is very good right now, I think only a few minor adjustments are needed
1) The bluflame bonus should only apply to normal light units, not vs workers.
2) Fungal needs to have a slight damage nerf.
3) Infested Terran should cost slightly more energy to cast.
3) Snipe should do bonus damage vs Massive Units in order to better balance TvZ late game. Every single one of these changes benefits Terran... I take it TvZ is your worst MU and TvP is your best?
Blueflame no longer dealing bonus damage to worker benefits terrans... how?
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On August 21 2011 23:37 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 23:28 StoRm_res wrote:On August 21 2011 23:17 MockHamill wrote:.
3) Snipe should do bonus damage vs Massive Units in order to better balance TvZ late game. so you basically want to 2-shot broodlords? ^^ No right now you need 6 snipes to kill a single BroodLord (5+ 1 for healing factor) and 12(!) to kill an Ultralisk. By giving Snipe a +15 damage vs Massive it would be sufficient with 4 snipes to kill a BroodLord and 9 snipes to kill an Ultralisk.
Snipe is already an incredibly powerful ability vs Zerg, and Terrans already have the edge in that matchup. I can't see how making snipe even better is going to balance things out, especially in a way that makes Ultralisks and even more unappealing unit?
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Warpprism is not just dropship, it its a mobile pylon. I dont understand why people dont fucking get this and then they complain about being able to drop only 4 zealots
Warp prism is designed to warp in bigger armies than what terran does with dropships.
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On August 22 2011 00:45 Lordwar wrote:
Warpprism is not just dropship, it its a mobile pylon. I dont understand why people dont fucking get this and then they complain about being able to drop only 4 zealots
Warp prism is designed to warp in bigger armies than what terran does with dropships.
so...our harassment options are supposed to kick in when we get 20 warpgates?
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On August 22 2011 00:45 Lordwar wrote:
Warpprism is not just dropship, it its a mobile pylon. I dont understand why people dont fucking get this and then they complain about being able to drop only 4 zealots
Warp prism is designed to warp in bigger armies than what terran does with dropships.
Pretty much. The only limit to how many units you can drop with a Warp Prism is how many Warp Gates you have. Drop the units it has in it, then go into pylon mod and warp in a ton more. Of course you can only get those original units back out safely but there are plenty of applications for it like drawing an enemy army back to his main while you snipe an expo. Sure it doesn't have much HP but it's fast as hell, the only time the opponent should be able to get a hit on it is when it's in pylon mode anyway.
so...our harassment options are supposed to kick in when we get 20 warpgates?
Why is 20 the threshold you think that warping in becomes useful? Dropping 4 Zealots and warping in 5 more is more than enough to do some real damage to any undefended base.
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On August 22 2011 00:46 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 00:45 Lordwar wrote:
Warpprism is not just dropship, it its a mobile pylon. I dont understand why people dont fucking get this and then they complain about being able to drop only 4 zealots
Warp prism is designed to warp in bigger armies than what terran does with dropships. so...our harassment options are supposed to kick in when we get 20 warpgates?
no but if you drop 4 zealots, then go out of range out of base, warp in 4 zealots, drop 4 more, repeat this is beautiful i wish i can do this with my shuttles over on iccup.
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On August 21 2011 23:40 DoubleReed wrote:I'm not convinced this should happen at all. The fact is that with the upgrade the warp prism is by far the fastest shuttle. It's fragility is due to its incredible speed. It's just that people don't bother to get the speed upgrade right now (as well as getting the obs speed upgrade).
If the upgrades were in something that wasn't the robo support bay, people might get them. Because they are hidden within a building that cost 200 gas and is the key to getting colossi, they aren't used as much. If you spending 200 gas, your going to get colossi, not spend 100 more gas on upgrades for units that can't shoot.
If the upgrade was moved to the cyber core, forge or twilight counsel, I think it would be used more. It just in a crappy spot right now, and it limits the use of the WP.
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On August 22 2011 00:50 wishbones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 00:46 Shiori wrote:On August 22 2011 00:45 Lordwar wrote:
Warpprism is not just dropship, it its a mobile pylon. I dont understand why people dont fucking get this and then they complain about being able to drop only 4 zealots
Warp prism is designed to warp in bigger armies than what terran does with dropships. so...our harassment options are supposed to kick in when we get 20 warpgates? no but if you drop 4 zealots, then go out of range out of base, warp in 4 zealots, drop 4 more, repeat this is beautiful i wish i can do this with my shuttles over on iccup.
zealots aren't even good at killing workers, since you need charge to be able to get anywhere near them. this is assuming that your opponent knows what he's doing, of course.
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Protos is no harrasment race currently, their armies are bad in small numbers. Protos is really much like zerg in that wise. Protos is macro race and is fully reliant on impenetrable defence which leads to my another thing that i want to mention: Photon cannons
Protosses still have not understood value of cannons. They are pretty cheap, and shoot both air and ground and are even detectors. Protos is known to have problems with splitting armies, so they really should try and use hell alot more static defence to be safe from drops.
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Why is 20 the threshold you think that warping in becomes useful? Dropping 4 Zealots and warping in 5 more is more than enough to do some real damage to any undefended base.
Yay... now we can maybe.. like focus down a barracks and maybe 2 scvs before all the scvs run and the MMM comes and kills the 5 zealots you warped in. And that's assuming stimmed marauders with conc shell don't prevent the 4 zeals that can run away in the drop ship from escaping.
Problem with the warp prism is less that its so fragile and more that protoss just has nothing to drop before high templar, and even then its extremely high risk for potentially nothing if the terran just runs away like you would from baneling bombs
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On August 22 2011 00:50 wishbones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 00:46 Shiori wrote:On August 22 2011 00:45 Lordwar wrote:
Warpprism is not just dropship, it its a mobile pylon. I dont understand why people dont fucking get this and then they complain about being able to drop only 4 zealots
Warp prism is designed to warp in bigger armies than what terran does with dropships. so...our harassment options are supposed to kick in when we get 20 warpgates? no but if you drop 4 zealots, then go out of range out of base, warp in 4 zealots, drop 4 more, repeat this is beautiful i wish i can do this with my shuttles over on iccup.
That's 1000 minerals that was spent on that harassment, so it better do a ton of damage. Unless the zealots have charge, your opponent has to be asleep at the wheel for it to be super effective.
In the late game, when the protoss is on 3-4 bases, they have the option of getting the WP and doing this, but the mid and early game is to tight to be throwing down that much money.
Also, the WP is a crappy mobile pylon. You cant (quickly) warp in more than 5-7 gates worth of units with it, due to is limited radius. Pylons buffer your supply and have a larger radius.
The WP has a lot of potential, but its upgrades are locked away in a teir 3 building and 300 gas. That's more gas than all three of basic terran bio upgrades, the same gas cost as twilight counsel. and charge. If they were available earlier, I think people would experiment with them more. Right now, its a late game ability to get because you have nothing else to upgrade.
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Imagine if the Warp Prism Speed would be at the Cybercore.
I for sure would get it and do sentry drops.
I've experimented with Sentry drops the last couple days, and they are pretty good,
but the prism is a huge liability. With the speed upgrade you could really harass fast and
more effective. I could also imagine doing immortal drops against zergs to try and kill queens / tech structures etc.
Or give the upgrade as default to test it out first, and if it's too powerful you can weaken it after.
Maybe then people will really start to experiment and find harass possiblities like that sentry drop.
It's like Tyler said on SotG. Maybe sometimes you have to take a risk in buffing a unit, even if it becomes to powerful, but then you can weaken it a bit after.
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On August 22 2011 00:58 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +Why is 20 the threshold you think that warping in becomes useful? Dropping 4 Zealots and warping in 5 more is more than enough to do some real damage to any undefended base. Yay... now we can maybe.. like focus down a barracks and maybe 2 scvs before all the scvs run and the MMM comes and kills the 5 zealots you warped in. And that's assuming stimmed marauders with conc shell don't prevent the 4 zeals that can run away in the drop ship from escaping.
Those Zealots would be for harassment purposes, not to kill the Terran's army. And when/if the Terran player brings his army to defend, then attack his natural/main ramp. Warp Prisms are not like Nydus Worms, they can't be used very offensively/all in, but can be used for harassment (though harassment for Protoss is a lot more difficult without a unit like the Reaver).
With that said, maybe the Warp Prism should get a decrease in cost (200 to 150 minerals) and phase mode should become an upgrade. This allows Protoss players to use the Warp Prism more easily during early/mid game. Overall, I think that Blizzard will not touch the Warp Prism until HotS, where Protoss will hopefully get a harassment unit similar to the Reaper or the Hellion. I remember before SCII came out Blizzard had a unit for Protoss that they were testing (I think it was called a Soul Hunter or something like that) that seemed like a good harass unit that could easily be paired with the Warp Prism.
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High templars in warp prisms is out of this world. You need insane APM to forcefield, blink, run away your colossi. If you also manage to unload your templar and feedback then you are a god among men.
Protecting high templar in shuttles is a BroodWar technique. I would love to see templars protected inside a warp prism. But the warp prism is too frail. It needs a big health increase or some base armor. A single stimmed marine can take it down in seconds.
The warpgate nerfs destroyed the game. Nowadays not every PvP is a 4gate but this could have been done by making high ground warpin impossible. Protoss has lost all scary 1 and 2 base pushes. This allows terran to techup to a 1-1-1 and it allows zerg to take 3 bases.
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You guys can make also more than one warp prism, two add big enough warping field to spawn lots of units at once.
Stop thinking warp prism has harrasment, start to think of it more like full out assault frontier.
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On August 22 2011 01:24 Lordwar wrote:
You guys can make also more than one warp prism, two add big enough warping field to spawn lots of units at once.
Stop thinking warp prism has harrasment, start to think of it more like full out assault frontier.
Are you serious?!?!
Try it out once and you will see how this is never ever going to work.
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EPT
