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On August 22 2011 23:58 Myrddraal wrote:
I have a few balance suggestions to get Protoss back into the game PvT, possibly help with PvZ and also make playing or watching Protoss generally more interesting.
I am not saying all of these should be done or if they would certainly improve the situation, just that they are possibilities that could be explored.
1. Remove the Templar Archives, and allow hts to be built after the Twilight Council. Storm would be upgraded in the Council.
- This would mean Toss could get the hts out earlier, hopefully in time for 1-1-1 allowing the Toss to feedback raven, banshees and possibly storm the marines
- May require significant change to storm damage (then if storm is weaker maybe make hts cheaper/faster)
- With HT's more accessable I think this would also allow Protoss to vary their compositions significantly (including compositions involving archons) as Protoss army comp always seems so similar and stale (or else they just don't quite work, ie Naniwa vs TSLHeart; zealot archon was interesting but with a few emps and good kiting they just evaporated)
2. Either make charge cheaper (is charge really worth twice as much as stim? as well as needing a cyber core and a twilight council as opposed to a tech lab)
Or split up Zealot speed and charge, put speed in the cyber core and charge in the council, even make charge require speed if need be.
- Would make zealots more useful and give the Protoss more options early on
3. Increase Stalkers rate of fire, reduce attack animation time and remove their bonus to armoured (In such a way that their dps to armoured is similar or slightly higher while their damage to light is increased) . I think this could help in a few ways.
- Increase the skill caps for Protoss players by allowing them to get more out of their stalkers via kiting
- Increase the reward for blink stalkers as a harassment unit against workers
- Give stalkers in low numbers a fighting chance against banshees
- Increase stalker effectiveness against large amounts of marines, hence reduce the need for aoe against large numbers of marines
4. Switch the raven abilities Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone, meaning that pdd must be upgraded.
- Would make the 1-1-1 builds involving a Raven take a little bit longer and cost a little bit more, but would not severely affect other matchups because arguably pdd is better and the only other time Ravens are generally used is in TvT and not usually until two mech Terrans have decided to transition to air
Posts like this irritate me to high heaven, but at least you put some sort of explanation with your arbitrary changes, so discussion can be engaged upon.
Firstly, your ridiculous presumption that protoss need to get 'back in the game'. No one seriously thinks ZvP is hopelessly broken. PvT has had problems for a couple of weeks because people figured a new build at the same time as protoss started expanding earlier. I'd like to see a season go past, or at least a month, before we cast judgement that the matchup is actually broken.
As to your changes:
1) wtf? Make storm as accessible as blink while at the same time making DTs the totally unstoppable? Seriously, wtf.
2) What makes you arbitrarily compare charge with stim? I could say "Is zergling speed really worth less than durable materials!!", but I'd still be pretty silly. Also, zealot speed? I think you're confusing this with another game...
3) Stalkers are one of the most versatile and cost effective units in the entire game. Not only would this sort of change make them overpowered as hell in army compositions, it would make early stalker harass broken in every matchup.
4) I don't get the point of this change, but it may or may not be fine. 1-1-1 isn't powerful because of the raven cuteness, if the build really does prove to be a problem in the long term, this bandaid won't help.
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Shall we keep this a balance discussion thread and not a: how would you fix the game thread?
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On August 22 2011 23:58 Myrddraal wrote:
I have a few balance suggestions to get Protoss back into the game PvT, possibly help with PvZ and also make playing or watching Protoss generally more interesting.
I am not saying all of these should be done or if they would certainly improve the situation, just that they are possibilities that could be explored.
1. Remove the Templar Archives, and allow hts to be built after the Twilight Council. Storm would be upgraded in the Council.
- This would mean Toss could get the hts out earlier, hopefully in time for 1-1-1 allowing the Toss to feedback raven, banshees and possibly storm the marines
- May require significant change to storm damage (then if storm is weaker maybe make hts cheaper/faster)
- With HT's more accessable I think this would also allow Protoss to vary their compositions significantly (including compositions involving archons) as Protoss army comp always seems so similar and stale (or else they just don't quite work, ie Naniwa vs TSLHeart; zealot archon was interesting but with a few emps and good kiting they just evaporated)
2. Either make charge cheaper (is charge really worth twice as much as stim? as well as needing a cyber core and a twilight council as opposed to a tech lab)
Or split up Zealot speed and charge, put speed in the cyber core and charge in the council, even make charge require speed if need be.
- Would make zealots more useful and give the Protoss more options early on
3. Increase Stalkers rate of fire, reduce attack animation time and remove their bonus to armoured (In such a way that their dps to armoured is similar or slightly higher while their damage to light is increased) . I think this could help in a few ways.
- Increase the skill caps for Protoss players by allowing them to get more out of their stalkers via kiting
- Increase the reward for blink stalkers as a harassment unit against workers
- Give stalkers in low numbers a fighting chance against banshees
- Increase stalker effectiveness against large amounts of marines, hence reduce the need for aoe against large numbers of marines
4. Switch the raven abilities Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone, meaning that pdd must be upgraded.
- Would make the 1-1-1 builds involving a Raven take a little bit longer and cost a little bit more, but would not severely affect other matchups because arguably pdd is better and the only other time Ravens are generally used is in TvT and not usually until two mech Terrans have decided to transition to air
1. I like your first point, that would make Protoss more dynamic and allow new unit composition. However, I do not think that storm should be able to be researched at the Twilight Council, unless it is weakened or modified in some way. Even then, it still may be too early for Protoss to have storm.
I think that storm should deal damage instantaneously upon casting. The reason that the Colossus is superior to the High Templar is that it's damage is instantaneous and the Marines cannot simply walk away from it. Storm, in my opinion, would be more effective if it dealt damage immediately, but dealt less damage, like 50% less damage to compensate for the instantaneous damage.
2. Splitting up Zealot speed and charge in my honest opinion is a bad idea. I could see the cost of it getting decreased to 150/150. In PvZ, this would make the Zerg seriously consider Banelings, which isn't a bad thing and would add more dynamic to the match up.
3. I disagree 100%. Stalkers should not be modified, that would change the game too much.
4. Hmm... I've never thought of anything like that, and I'm not so sure about removing the upgrade for the HSM though. I'm not against it though. Banshees seem far superior to a missile that can be outrun extremely easy. The Banshee seems superior for worker harass, unless there is anti-air nearby, then a missile could force all of the drones away from mining for a while (noob), or at worst one drone away from mining (pro).
Making the PDD an upgrade to delay the timing push is brilliant. It doesn't even have to cost much, like 50/50. It's the time it takes to research that will hurt the build.
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On August 23 2011 00:07 AdrianHealey wrote:
I think you have some nice changes. However; the increasing damage by stalkers seems a bit over the top. It would make stalker pretty powerfull against zerglings and hydra's; which are supposed to be the direct counter to them.
Hm I can see where you are coming from, but at the rate that stalkers currently die to both speedlings and hydras in direct fights (in both cases they melt) I don't think it would be a problem.
Though it is possible that they would be too effective against slowlings, but unless the zerg is going no gas its pretty rare that I have actually seen stalkers engage lings before speed (in pro matches).
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On August 23 2011 00:21 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 23:58 Myrddraal wrote:
I have a few balance suggestions to get Protoss back into the game PvT, possibly help with PvZ and also make playing or watching Protoss generally more interesting.
I am not saying all of these should be done or if they would certainly improve the situation, just that they are possibilities that could be explored.
1. Remove the Templar Archives, and allow hts to be built after the Twilight Council. Storm would be upgraded in the Council.
- This would mean Toss could get the hts out earlier, hopefully in time for 1-1-1 allowing the Toss to feedback raven, banshees and possibly storm the marines
- May require significant change to storm damage (then if storm is weaker maybe make hts cheaper/faster)
- With HT's more accessable I think this would also allow Protoss to vary their compositions significantly (including compositions involving archons) as Protoss army comp always seems so similar and stale (or else they just don't quite work, ie Naniwa vs TSLHeart; zealot archon was interesting but with a few emps and good kiting they just evaporated)
2. Either make charge cheaper (is charge really worth twice as much as stim? as well as needing a cyber core and a twilight council as opposed to a tech lab)
Or split up Zealot speed and charge, put speed in the cyber core and charge in the council, even make charge require speed if need be.
- Would make zealots more useful and give the Protoss more options early on
3. Increase Stalkers rate of fire, reduce attack animation time and remove their bonus to armoured (In such a way that their dps to armoured is similar or slightly higher while their damage to light is increased) . I think this could help in a few ways.
- Increase the skill caps for Protoss players by allowing them to get more out of their stalkers via kiting
- Increase the reward for blink stalkers as a harassment unit against workers
- Give stalkers in low numbers a fighting chance against banshees
- Increase stalker effectiveness against large amounts of marines, hence reduce the need for aoe against large numbers of marines
4. Switch the raven abilities Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone, meaning that pdd must be upgraded.
- Would make the 1-1-1 builds involving a Raven take a little bit longer and cost a little bit more, but would not severely affect other matchups because arguably pdd is better and the only other time Ravens are generally used is in TvT and not usually until two mech Terrans have decided to transition to air
Posts like this irritate me to high heaven, but at least you put some sort of explanation with your arbitrary changes, so discussion can be engaged upon. Firstly, your ridiculous presumption that protoss need to get 'back in the game'. No one seriously thinks ZvP is hopelessly broken. PvT has had problems for a couple of weeks because people figured a new build at the same time as protoss started expanding earlier. I'd like to see a season go past, or at least a month, before we cast judgement that the matchup is actually broken. As to your changes: 1) wtf? Make storm as accessible as blink while at the same time making DTs the totally unstoppable? Seriously, wtf. 2) What makes you arbitrarily compare charge with stim? I could say "Is zergling speed really worth less than durable materials!!", but I'd still be pretty silly. Also, zealot speed? I think you're confusing this with another game... 3) Stalkers are one of the most versatile and cost effective units in the entire game. Not only would this sort of change make them overpowered as hell in army compositions, it would make early stalker harass broken in every matchup. 4) I don't get the point of this change, but it may or may not be fine. 1-1-1 isn't powerful because of the raven cuteness, if the build really does prove to be a problem in the long term, this bandaid won't help.
Both ZvP and TvP favour the non-Protoss races. Obviously you don't play Protoss so you'll probably try to rationalize your way out of this as best you can. We're not going to wait an entire damn season (when it's already been 3 months of destruction) worth of stupid allin builds and greedy, unpunishable zerg play.
1) DT Shrine and Templar Archives should be merged. Shrine is the only building in the entire game which gives access to one unit and nothing else. It doesn't have upgrades for the unit or anything. The two should be one building, because anything which gives P some actual CHOICE in teching is a good thing.
2) Stim is 10x better than Charge, affects two units instead of one, and is researchable from a tier 1.5 building. Zergling speed is also researchable from an initial building. Charge is the odd man out. If you look at our tier 1.5 unit upgrades (i.e. those from the Cybernetics Core) they're terrible. The only one remotely useful is Hallucination and getting that is unfeasible until we get Warpgate and some sentries. You can't open Hallucination. You can open Zergling Speed/Stim push/Concussion Shells.
3) Stalkers aren't versatile at all. They lose to workers and are only good against units that are either cheaper than them (roaches, marines) or air. Blink is a good spell, but all it does it allow you to close the gap between the person who has double your supply in cheap units with your expensive, BB-gun stalkers. You want to know a cost efficient unit? Like, a real one? The Marauder. It beats virtually every protoss gateway composition pretty much single-handedly for a FRACTION of the cost of protoss units. It gets not one but two amazing upgrades in Stim and Concussion Shells. Coupled with the gas-free Marine, MM is pretty much unstoppable until Protoss gets a tonne of sentries or techs up. They are easily the most cost-effective units conceivable. And if you want to discuss the cost-effectiveness of zerg, need I remind you that 4 zerglings beat the zealot that supposedly hard counters them for the same price?
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Some changes id love to see. Not sure if all of them good, too harsh or too lenient except the ghost one which i think would be fucking awesome.
- PDD now starts with 50 energy but regenerates noticeably faster. Duration reduced to 2 minutes and turning it into a more defensively oriented tool.
- Medvac healing rate reduced by 33% increased starting energy by 25.
- Remove the starting medvac energy tech and replace it with equivalent increase to current rate.
- Viking range reduced to 8 from 9
- Ghost emp now removes 75% of the energy available to the ghost as he casted the EMP. This would make having reserves a whole lot more important. A 200 energy templar would be extremely valuable for protoss. Terran can still punish toss for stacking templars but would require multiple casts for not recently made templars. a 200/200 ghost would still prevent a 200/200 templar from having enough energy to cast storm.
- Storm damage reduced by 20% duration increased by 1 second.
- Twilight council gas cost reduced by 50.
- FF won't push units away. Instead units caught inside the FF will move at a reduced speed until they leave the forcefield. Passing through one remains unchanged. (Most likely game breaking but id love to see some kind of snare on protoss in some shape or form)
- Roach HP reduced by 10
- Hydra hp increased by 10
- Nydus network (initial cost reduced to 100/100) worms remain the same.
- Ventral sacks reduced to 150/150
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On August 23 2011 00:21 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 23:58 Myrddraal wrote:
I have a few balance suggestions to get Protoss back into the game PvT, possibly help with PvZ and also make playing or watching Protoss generally more interesting.
I am not saying all of these should be done or if they would certainly improve the situation, just that they are possibilities that could be explored.
1. Remove the Templar Archives, and allow hts to be built after the Twilight Council. Storm would be upgraded in the Council.
- This would mean Toss could get the hts out earlier, hopefully in time for 1-1-1 allowing the Toss to feedback raven, banshees and possibly storm the marines
- May require significant change to storm damage (then if storm is weaker maybe make hts cheaper/faster)
- With HT's more accessable I think this would also allow Protoss to vary their compositions significantly (including compositions involving archons) as Protoss army comp always seems so similar and stale (or else they just don't quite work, ie Naniwa vs TSLHeart; zealot archon was interesting but with a few emps and good kiting they just evaporated)
2. Either make charge cheaper (is charge really worth twice as much as stim? as well as needing a cyber core and a twilight council as opposed to a tech lab)
Or split up Zealot speed and charge, put speed in the cyber core and charge in the council, even make charge require speed if need be.
- Would make zealots more useful and give the Protoss more options early on
3. Increase Stalkers rate of fire, reduce attack animation time and remove their bonus to armoured (In such a way that their dps to armoured is similar or slightly higher while their damage to light is increased) . I think this could help in a few ways.
- Increase the skill caps for Protoss players by allowing them to get more out of their stalkers via kiting
- Increase the reward for blink stalkers as a harassment unit against workers
- Give stalkers in low numbers a fighting chance against banshees
- Increase stalker effectiveness against large amounts of marines, hence reduce the need for aoe against large numbers of marines
4. Switch the raven abilities Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone, meaning that pdd must be upgraded.
- Would make the 1-1-1 builds involving a Raven take a little bit longer and cost a little bit more, but would not severely affect other matchups because arguably pdd is better and the only other time Ravens are generally used is in TvT and not usually until two mech Terrans have decided to transition to air
Posts like this irritate me to high heaven, but at least you put some sort of explanation with your arbitrary changes, so discussion can be engaged upon. Firstly, your ridiculous presumption that protoss need to get 'back in the game'. No one seriously thinks ZvP is hopelessly broken. PvT has had problems for a couple of weeks because people figured a new build at the same time as protoss started expanding earlier. I'd like to see a season go past, or at least a month, before we cast judgement that the matchup is actually broken.
This seemed an appropriate place for this type of discussion as the OP included a suggestion in their own post. Also I never said that ZvP was hopelessly broken, but most people would agree that it favours zerg right now.
As to your changes:
1) wtf? Make storm as accessible as blink while at the same time making DTs the totally unstoppable? Seriously, wtf.
I'm assuming you meant HT's or else I have no idea what DTs have to do with my post, and if that is the case I made it quite clear that some changes to storm and HT would most likely be neccessary ie not make them unstoppable.
2) What makes you arbitrarily compare charge with stim? I could say "Is zergling speed really worth less than durable materials!!", but I'd still be pretty silly. Also, zealot speed? I think you're confusing this with another game...
Both are upgrades to the respective races first unit I don't see why they can't be compared. I would say that stim is much better for its value and time taken to research.
Also I think you have your facts wrong because charge also increases the speed of zealots so maybe do some research before trying to be so condescending.
3) Stalkers are one of the most versatile and cost effective units in the entire game. Not only would this sort of change make them overpowered as hell in army compositions, it would make early stalker harass broken in every matchup.
I would agree that in some cases they 'can' be extremely cost effective, but straight up fights they can often be quite terrible.
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Ghost emp now removes 75% of the energy available to the ghost as he casted the EMP. This would make having reserves a whole lot more important. A 200 energy templar would be extremely valuable for protoss.
I don't understand how this would make having reserves more important? Seems like it would make them less important at a single EMP on a 200/200 templar would reduce its energy to 50. Seems like it would be a straight up buff, as whether a high templar has 20 energy left or 0, they're probably better off as an archon. I'd rather see a 2 range nerf to EMP so the feedback vs. EMP battles are actually decided by skill/reflex and awareness instead of EMP out ranging feedback by 3 =/
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On August 23 2011 00:48 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +Ghost emp now removes 75% of the energy available to the ghost as he casted the EMP. This would make having reserves a whole lot more important. A 200 energy templar would be extremely valuable for protoss. I don't understand how this would make having reserves more important? Seems like it would make them less important at a single EMP on a 200/200 templar would reduce its energy to 50. Seems like it would be a straight up buff, as whether a high templar has 20 energy left or 0, they're probably better off as an archon. I'd rather see a 2 range nerf to EMP so the feedback vs. EMP battles are actually decided by skill/reflex and awareness instead of EMP out ranging feedback by 3 =/
Because it would create a huge gamble for terran sending his good ghosts forward. If they get fedback he looses the ability to remove all the storms from the battle. He'll still be able to remove some but not all (unless protoss fails and clumps).
If he sends the shitty ones first he's gonna have to be smart and target the low E templars.
It gives the whole emp / storm more depth which imo is always good for a competitive game. It also has some other side effects like not instantly removing all of the immortal's shields in 1 shot if used by a low E ghost.
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OHH my bad I totally misread your post. I thought you meant Ghost takes away 75% of templar energy, but you mean.. yeah. Ok I see what you're saying. That's actually pretty interesting. At first I thought that 75 energy ghosts would be so useless since they'd drain like 20 energy but i suppose they could be used to EMP the army rather than the casters. Still I don't think this would work as it would require far too much micro on the terran's part to EMP using specific ghosts instead of the closest ones (IMO). I think the simplest change would just be to equalize the range.
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On August 22 2011 23:58 Myrddraal wrote:
I have a few balance suggestions to get Protoss back into the game PvT, possibly help with PvZ and also make playing or watching Protoss generally more interesting.
I am not saying all of these should be done or if they would certainly improve the situation, just that they are possibilities that could be explored.
1. Remove the Templar Archives, and allow hts to be built after the Twilight Council. Storm would be upgraded in the Council.
- This would mean Toss could get the hts out earlier, hopefully in time for 1-1-1 allowing the Toss to feedback raven, banshees and possibly storm the marines
- May require significant change to storm damage (then if storm is weaker maybe make hts cheaper/faster)
- With HT's more accessable I think this would also allow Protoss to vary their compositions significantly (including compositions involving archons) as Protoss army comp always seems so similar and stale (or else they just don't quite work, ie Naniwa vs TSLHeart; zealot archon was interesting but with a few emps and good kiting they just evaporated)
2. Either make charge cheaper (is charge really worth twice as much as stim? as well as needing a cyber core and a twilight council as opposed to a tech lab)
Or split up Zealot speed and charge, put speed in the cyber core and charge in the council, even make charge require speed if need be.
- Would make zealots more useful and give the Protoss more options early on
3. Increase Stalkers rate of fire, reduce attack animation time and remove their bonus to armoured (In such a way that their dps to armoured is similar or slightly higher while their damage to light is increased) . I think this could help in a few ways.
- Increase the skill caps for Protoss players by allowing them to get more out of their stalkers via kiting
- Increase the reward for blink stalkers as a harassment unit against workers
- Give stalkers in low numbers a fighting chance against banshees
- Increase stalker effectiveness against large amounts of marines, hence reduce the need for aoe against large numbers of marines
4. Switch the raven abilities Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone, meaning that pdd must be upgraded.
- Would make the 1-1-1 builds involving a Raven take a little bit longer and cost a little bit more, but would not severely affect other matchups because arguably pdd is better and the only other time Ravens are generally used is in TvT and not usually until two mech Terrans have decided to transition to air
1. Terrible and wont solve anything. Why? If they go 1-1-1, why would you go for storm? You will auto lose to cloak banshee. If you invest into robo tech and storm tech, it will drain so much of your gas that you will probably not even get out HT in time (consider the wait time for HT energy as well). You are going to have alot of zealots due to the surplus of mineral and wont have any anti air. Your only hope is that 2 or 3 archon at the most. Also if he scout you going for this build, he wont go raven, he will just get more banshee. Dont forget, he will pull scv to repair as well so your feedback wont kill if they burn their energy cloaking back and forth.
2. Being able to get a cheaper and faster charge will literally break the game. Zerglings will become useless and +1 timing attack with zealots would wreck zerg. This will push PvZ into a linear state of massing roaches instead of the recent more diverse strategy of getting lings and infestors. Also, with the recent buff to archon, faster chargelots + archon will become ridiculously crazy strong.
3. If stalker attack speed is going to be increase to accommodate all the stuff you said, then they are going to literally break PvZ. Gateway unit suck by themselves but exponentially get better once they get paired up with each other. By increasing stalker like this, you will once again destroy PvZ if they are to become as strong as you suggest. Since PvZ is stalker heavy composition. It will also make collosi stronger because corruptors also sucks compare to viking at dealing with collosi and if the stalker have higher DPS, the corruptor will die in even stupider fashion. This make the protoss deathball exponentially stronger because stalker are stronger and collosi become harder to kill.
4. Switching the PDD and SM will kill the raven role in the 1-1-1 and they will just do the variation without the raven. Once again, solves nothing but kill another possible variation. Raven already neglected enough, doubt they will see the light of day if SM and PDD get switch. I would rather get a reactor than a techlab on my starport in TvT if that was the case.
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There's a pretty simple solution this. Reduce warpgate research time by 40 seconds.
Reduce warpgate cooldown by 1 second. Balance Protoss early game.
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On August 23 2011 00:21 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 23:58 Myrddraal wrote:
I have a few balance suggestions to get Protoss back into the game PvT, possibly help with PvZ and also make playing or watching Protoss generally more interesting.
I am not saying all of these should be done or if they would certainly improve the situation, just that they are possibilities that could be explored.
1. Remove the Templar Archives, and allow hts to be built after the Twilight Council. Storm would be upgraded in the Council.
- This would mean Toss could get the hts out earlier, hopefully in time for 1-1-1 allowing the Toss to feedback raven, banshees and possibly storm the marines
- May require significant change to storm damage (then if storm is weaker maybe make hts cheaper/faster)
- With HT's more accessable I think this would also allow Protoss to vary their compositions significantly (including compositions involving archons) as Protoss army comp always seems so similar and stale (or else they just don't quite work, ie Naniwa vs TSLHeart; zealot archon was interesting but with a few emps and good kiting they just evaporated)
2. Either make charge cheaper (is charge really worth twice as much as stim? as well as needing a cyber core and a twilight council as opposed to a tech lab)
Or split up Zealot speed and charge, put speed in the cyber core and charge in the council, even make charge require speed if need be.
- Would make zealots more useful and give the Protoss more options early on
3. Increase Stalkers rate of fire, reduce attack animation time and remove their bonus to armoured (In such a way that their dps to armoured is similar or slightly higher while their damage to light is increased) . I think this could help in a few ways.
- Increase the skill caps for Protoss players by allowing them to get more out of their stalkers via kiting
- Increase the reward for blink stalkers as a harassment unit against workers
- Give stalkers in low numbers a fighting chance against banshees
- Increase stalker effectiveness against large amounts of marines, hence reduce the need for aoe against large numbers of marines
4. Switch the raven abilities Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone, meaning that pdd must be upgraded.
- Would make the 1-1-1 builds involving a Raven take a little bit longer and cost a little bit more, but would not severely affect other matchups because arguably pdd is better and the only other time Ravens are generally used is in TvT and not usually until two mech Terrans have decided to transition to air
Posts like this irritate me to high heaven, but at least you put some sort of explanation with your arbitrary changes, so discussion can be engaged upon. Firstly, your ridiculous presumption that protoss need to get 'back in the game'. No one seriously thinks ZvP is hopelessly broken. PvT has had problems for a couple of weeks because people figured a new build at the same time as protoss started expanding earlier. I'd like to see a season go past, or at least a month, before we cast judgement that the matchup is actually broken. As to your changes: 1) wtf? Make storm as accessible as blink while at the same time making DTs the totally unstoppable? Seriously, wtf. 2) What makes you arbitrarily compare charge with stim? I could say "Is zergling speed really worth less than durable materials!!", but I'd still be pretty silly. Also, zealot speed? I think you're confusing this with another game... 3) Stalkers are one of the most versatile and cost effective units in the entire game. Not only would this sort of change make them overpowered as hell in army compositions, it would make early stalker harass broken in every matchup. 4) I don't get the point of this change, but it may or may not be fine. 1-1-1 isn't powerful because of the raven cuteness, if the build really does prove to be a problem in the long term, this bandaid won't help.
No, the builds been around since early release. Protoss learnt to hold it at around 50%. Now, as the Korean GM's have fiddled and found it to be super good when used with better mechanics, positioning, composition thinner timings. That's when it became tough. It's nothing new, it's just, better.
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On August 23 2011 06:29 tallbus1 wrote:
There's a pretty simple solution this. Reduce warpgate research time by 40 seconds.
Reduce warpgate cooldown by 1 second. Balance Protoss early game.
Do that, 4 gate becomes a problem again, in all matchups. Lategame gateway heavy styles become near unstoppable.
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On August 23 2011 06:36 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 00:21 DaemonX wrote:On August 22 2011 23:58 Myrddraal wrote:
I have a few balance suggestions to get Protoss back into the game PvT, possibly help with PvZ and also make playing or watching Protoss generally more interesting.
I am not saying all of these should be done or if they would certainly improve the situation, just that they are possibilities that could be explored.
1. Remove the Templar Archives, and allow hts to be built after the Twilight Council. Storm would be upgraded in the Council.
- This would mean Toss could get the hts out earlier, hopefully in time for 1-1-1 allowing the Toss to feedback raven, banshees and possibly storm the marines
- May require significant change to storm damage (then if storm is weaker maybe make hts cheaper/faster)
- With HT's more accessable I think this would also allow Protoss to vary their compositions significantly (including compositions involving archons) as Protoss army comp always seems so similar and stale (or else they just don't quite work, ie Naniwa vs TSLHeart; zealot archon was interesting but with a few emps and good kiting they just evaporated)
2. Either make charge cheaper (is charge really worth twice as much as stim? as well as needing a cyber core and a twilight council as opposed to a tech lab)
Or split up Zealot speed and charge, put speed in the cyber core and charge in the council, even make charge require speed if need be.
- Would make zealots more useful and give the Protoss more options early on
3. Increase Stalkers rate of fire, reduce attack animation time and remove their bonus to armoured (In such a way that their dps to armoured is similar or slightly higher while their damage to light is increased) . I think this could help in a few ways.
- Increase the skill caps for Protoss players by allowing them to get more out of their stalkers via kiting
- Increase the reward for blink stalkers as a harassment unit against workers
- Give stalkers in low numbers a fighting chance against banshees
- Increase stalker effectiveness against large amounts of marines, hence reduce the need for aoe against large numbers of marines
4. Switch the raven abilities Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone, meaning that pdd must be upgraded.
- Would make the 1-1-1 builds involving a Raven take a little bit longer and cost a little bit more, but would not severely affect other matchups because arguably pdd is better and the only other time Ravens are generally used is in TvT and not usually until two mech Terrans have decided to transition to air
Posts like this irritate me to high heaven, but at least you put some sort of explanation with your arbitrary changes, so discussion can be engaged upon. Firstly, your ridiculous presumption that protoss need to get 'back in the game'. No one seriously thinks ZvP is hopelessly broken. PvT has had problems for a couple of weeks because people figured a new build at the same time as protoss started expanding earlier. I'd like to see a season go past, or at least a month, before we cast judgement that the matchup is actually broken. As to your changes: 1) wtf? Make storm as accessible as blink while at the same time making DTs the totally unstoppable? Seriously, wtf. 2) What makes you arbitrarily compare charge with stim? I could say "Is zergling speed really worth less than durable materials!!", but I'd still be pretty silly. Also, zealot speed? I think you're confusing this with another game... 3) Stalkers are one of the most versatile and cost effective units in the entire game. Not only would this sort of change make them overpowered as hell in army compositions, it would make early stalker harass broken in every matchup. 4) I don't get the point of this change, but it may or may not be fine. 1-1-1 isn't powerful because of the raven cuteness, if the build really does prove to be a problem in the long term, this bandaid won't help. No, the builds been around since early release. Protoss learnt to hold it at around 50%. Now, as the Korean GM's have fiddled and found it to be super good when used with better mechanics, positioning, composition thinner timings. That's when it became tough. It's nothing new, it's just, better.
It mainly about scouting it and not dying to a rax all-in. It not impossible to stop it just too hard to scout. Iono why people keep thinking that getting a certain unit faster will fix it....it just the game need better way of scouting some how. But that really hard to incorporate :/
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On August 23 2011 06:37 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:29 tallbus1 wrote:
There's a pretty simple solution this. Reduce warpgate research time by 40 seconds.
Reduce warpgate cooldown by 1 second. Balance Protoss early game. Do that, 4 gate becomes a problem again, in all matchups. Lategame gateway heavy styles become near unstoppable.
Dude that was so obviously a troll rofl you got trolled so hard hahaha
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On August 23 2011 06:39 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:37 FataLe wrote:On August 23 2011 06:29 tallbus1 wrote:
There's a pretty simple solution this. Reduce warpgate research time by 40 seconds.
Reduce warpgate cooldown by 1 second. Balance Protoss early game. Do that, 4 gate becomes a problem again, in all matchups. Lategame gateway heavy styles become near unstoppable. Dude that was so obviously a troll rofl you got trolled so hard hahaha
Me so silly ._.
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4gate was FINE before the warpgate nerfs. It fact, it was not used anymore because it was totally figured out by terran and zerg. The only use for it actually was to do things like rush a terran who goes 1-1-1, which is no longer possible, and that made the build so strong.
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can someone explain why emp isn't researched like storm is and fungal to for that matter?
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Because it is way too strong... It really should be a research and it should be weaker as well, instead of nullifying all protoss spells and 50% stalker+sentry health and 33% zealot health.
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EPT
