EPTIf they are "imba" which is to early to really tell, just buff other races instead.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 419
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
If they are "imba" which is to early to really tell, just buff other races instead. | ||
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duct_TAPE
492 Posts
On March 31 2013 18:11 BeyondCtrL wrote: No it is not. Too many people are playing too passively vs. Protoss, you shouldn't be surprised that an army that costs 3x as much crushes the inferior one. Still it's too early to tell, I think it will take a few more weeks until we begin to see real builds emerge, and then we can begin making REAL discussion, instead of the gibberish we see now. He has a point though, comparing cost size dosn't really mean anything if the other races dosn't have ANYTHING that compares, it means you have got to stop the protoss from getting to that point but if he does, it's over. I think that's what he argues. | ||
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Rossie
136 Posts
On March 31 2013 22:05 duct_TAPE wrote: That's what Protoss players were saying when brood-infestor was at its heights. Nobody listened.He has a point though, comparing cost size dosn't really mean anything if the other races dosn't have ANYTHING that compares, it means you have got to stop the protoss from getting to that point but if he does, it's over. I think that's what he argues. The truth is, however, that we don't know whether Toss has an unbeatable late game army. Zergs should be experimenting with compositions like swarm host-corruptor, as they're doing in Korea. Terrans should be deploying ghosts, widow mines, thors, battlecruisers...the whole shebang. If you stick to marine-marauder the entire game, then frankly you deserve to lose. | ||
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priestnoob
243 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On March 31 2013 23:27 priestnoob wrote: Guys, it is clearly that Zerg is still BY FAR the leading race in terms of OPness, with Terran and Protoss (in this order) trailing. This is clear from the fact that the Zerg help me thread has only 20 pages of people not knowing what to do, as opposed to 32 from Terran and 37 from Protoss. Looking forward for the long needed one Ling per egg patch. You almost got me there for a second. xD | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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Csong
Canada396 Posts
even after the little nerf blizzard gave to it, it still feels kind of hard to stop, or is it just me?o.o maybe making creep tumors cost more energy? or make scan cost less energy ? :D | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On March 31 2013 23:53 HeeroFX wrote: I actualy like the idea of one ling per egg it actually makes sense because it means you can't get overruned if you fast expand. A zerg fast expands with no pool why can't I with like one barracks and hold it without any trouble? Zerg should be able to get a base up on you because of your superior economy. Also if zerglings had to be built one at a time no one would use them anymore, that'd be way too larva inefficient. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On April 01 2013 01:56 padfoota wrote: no idea how this thread will look like since its april first.... blizzard might announce a troll patch | ||
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duct_TAPE
492 Posts
On March 31 2013 23:08 Rossie wrote: That's what Protoss players were saying when brood-infestor was at its heights. Nobody listened. The truth is, however, that we don't know whether Toss has an unbeatable late game army. Zergs should be experimenting with compositions like swarm host-corruptor, as they're doing in Korea. Terrans should be deploying ghosts, widow mines, thors, battlecruisers...the whole shebang. If you stick to marine-marauder the entire game, then frankly you deserve to lose. Nobody listened? I think the general playerbase collectively agreed that BL/infestor was too strong and way too stale, Blizzard didn't do anything about it. Now the turtlestyle is on another race, it's easy to relieve your sense of vengeance and argue that the ball is on the other court now, but the truth is that it makes the game stale and boring, BL/infestor was void/carrier/tempest/HT is. | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
On March 31 2013 23:08 Rossie wrote: That's what Protoss players were saying when brood-infestor was at its heights. Nobody listened. The truth is, however, that we don't know whether Toss has an unbeatable late game army. Zergs should be experimenting with compositions like swarm host-corruptor, as they're doing in Korea. Terrans should be deploying ghosts, widow mines, thors, battlecruisers...the whole shebang. If you stick to marine-marauder the entire game, then frankly you deserve to lose. Have fun making widow mines work vs toss as anything except for harass tactics. Just by the fact you suggest Terran try out 2 units which are a staple in various matchups, and 2 "capital ship" units which aren't as useful except in super late game scenarios, shows your lack of understanding for how this game actually goes. It's pretty clear to me that skytoss/colossi is going to be tweaked a little bit as it literally is the BL/infestor comp of HOTS right now...not that it's impossible to beat, but it leads to boring ass games where you end up expanding aggressively but making a kill move is damn near impossible until the protoss moves into a favorable position. ESP on a map like akilon where P can lock down 4 bases within about 5 seconds walk of each other's chokes. Ask Artosis what he thinks of tempest/HT into tempest/vr/colossi with mass cannons for defence. We don't want the game to become "I'm going to turtle, get 3 of my tier3 units out en masse, then require you to be 2-3 bases ahead to trade efficiently enough to beat me.." | ||
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Uni1987
Netherlands642 Posts
On April 01 2013 04:00 TimENT wrote: After seeing Stephano lose to Demuslim about 20 times in a row now...it's extremely obvious to me that it has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Stephano hasn't adapted at all. Every game Stephano is super defensive with zero mutalisks and tries to build up ultra/infestor. I mean, jeez Stephano, adapt! Clearly you have the insight of a banana. | ||
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cocosoft
Sweden1068 Posts
On April 01 2013 04:00 TimENT wrote: After seeing Stephano lose to Demuslim about 20 times in a row now...it's extremely obvious to me that it has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Stephano hasn't adapted at all. Every game Stephano is super defensive with zero mutalisks and tries to build up ultra/infestor. I mean, jeez Stephano, adapt! Yup but stephano is quitting progaming. | ||
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
Probably why he isn't too bothered about adapting. You can't judge balance from the perspective of 1 former top5 foreign Zerg, whose primary reign of terror kicked off the "patchzerg" era of WoL, when he says himself that he isn't as motivated as before. | ||
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ConGee
318 Posts
On April 01 2013 05:28 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: Have fun making widow mines work vs toss as anything except for harass tactics. Just by the fact you suggest Terran try out 2 units which are a staple in various matchups, and 2 "capital ship" units which aren't as useful except in super late game scenarios, shows your lack of understanding for how this game actually goes. It's pretty clear to me that skytoss/colossi is going to be tweaked a little bit as it literally is the BL/infestor comp of HOTS right now...not that it's impossible to beat, but it leads to boring ass games where you end up expanding aggressively but making a kill move is damn near impossible until the protoss moves into a favorable position. ESP on a map like akilon where P can lock down 4 bases within about 5 seconds walk of each other's chokes. Ask Artosis what he thinks of tempest/HT into tempest/vr/colossi with mass cannons for defence. We don't want the game to become "I'm going to turtle, get 3 of my tier3 units out en masse, then require you to be 2-3 bases ahead to trade efficiently enough to beat me.." Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone. | ||
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FreeTossCZComentary
Czech Republic143 Posts
On April 01 2013 07:02 ConGee wrote: Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone. It depends... Well, whole thing with Terran who think skytoss is OP is that they just go their heavy marauder composition and end up 'what the hell is this, how come I cant shot those ships down... OP'. Marine is not counter to protoss T3. You have vikings. You have Yamato cannons. You have ghosts. Your AA is best in the game. Skytoss in PvT does not really matter, it is PvP(where it is just mass voids) and PvZ where you have real problem as most of your AA is either crappy(Stalker, Hydralisk) or just simply does not work(Phoenix vs void rays dont work that well, corruptors are not even threat to voids). Same problem is for toss and zerg with new mutas. This comes from protoss player btw. About things in air, terrans should be silent, as they have best AA there is. And for people who complain about BC vs Tempest problem, guess what. Tempest fires 1 missile per 3 seconds. If he does not have real mass of phoenix or stalkers who also fire projectile(as voidray is projectile-less) PDDs will stop tempests for long time. For zerg players... against airtoss, I think ultras into killing all bases felt like most solid way to deal with air-toss... before he reaches critical mass. Dont know for sure... | ||
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
On April 01 2013 07:21 FreeTossCZComentary wrote: It depends... Well, whole thing with Terran who think skytoss is OP is that they just go their heavy marauder composition and end up 'what the hell is this, how come I cant shot those ships down... OP'. Marine is not counter to protoss T3. You have vikings. You have Yamato cannons. You have ghosts. Your AA is best in the game. Skytoss in PvT does not really matter, it is PvP(where it is just mass voids) and PvZ where you have real problem as most of your AA is either crappy(Stalker, Hydralisk) or just simply does not work(Phoenix vs void rays dont work that well, corruptors are not even threat to voids). Same problem is for toss and zerg with new mutas. This comes from protoss player btw. About things in air, terrans should be silent, as they have best AA there is. And for people who complain about BC vs Tempest problem, guess what. Tempest fires 1 missile per 3 seconds. If he does not have real mass of phoenix or stalkers who also fire projectile(as voidray is projectile-less) PDDs will stop tempests for long time. For zerg players... against airtoss, I think ultras into killing all bases felt like most solid way to deal with air-toss... before he reaches critical mass. Dont know for sure... I'm not complaining about skytoss as Terran but I would like it noted that Vikings have the same problems dealing with void rays that corrupters do ATM. A lot of my protoss losses come from a Voidray/stalker/zealot/colossi mix which comes off a stargate oracle opening. Void rays with PA make it so that you need a much higher count of vikings, and also let the colossi get off more shots on your army; It's real easy to get your bio melted. I'm not saying it's broken but its hard to push someone who has 4 colossi, 3-4 void rays and a zealots as a mineral sink because your going to loose too much being agressive. I'm not saying it's anywhere near as problematic as in PvP PvZ where Skytoss is currently the dominant comp, but you can see in those matches WHY it is a problem in the matchup. An idea I would like to see what you guys think: change Prismatic Alignment so that it adds a certain % to damage based on charge-up rather than a straight +6 vs armored. You make it so that in the first couple stages of charge the damage will be less than it is now(so that the void rays are nerfed for initial damage), however when the damage stage increased the % will be one that causes them to do slightly more damage than before. I think a change like this would do wonders(because it now doesn't slaughter armored AA which is the main AA you used to fight it with), because the VR remains a strong unit(stronger than before if you don't micromanage or the Protoss has you pinned) but will allow savvy players to run in with Vikings/corrupter/phoenix and minimize damage by retreating before the strength of the Void Ray(sustained concentrated fire) tears them apart. | ||
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