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On April 01 2013 08:04 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 07:21 FreeTossCZComentary wrote:On April 01 2013 07:02 ConGee wrote:On April 01 2013 05:28 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On March 31 2013 23:08 Rossie wrote:On March 31 2013 22:05 duct_TAPE wrote:
He has a point though, comparing cost size dosn't really mean anything if the other races dosn't have ANYTHING that compares, it means you have got to stop the protoss from getting to that point but if he does, it's over. I think that's what he argues. That's what Protoss players were saying when brood-infestor was at its heights. Nobody listened. The truth is, however, that we don't know whether Toss has an unbeatable late game army. Zergs should be experimenting with compositions like swarm host-corruptor, as they're doing in Korea. Terrans should be deploying ghosts, widow mines, thors, battlecruisers...the whole shebang. If you stick to marine-marauder the entire game, then frankly you deserve to lose. Have fun making widow mines work vs toss as anything except for harass tactics. Just by the fact you suggest Terran try out 2 units which are a staple in various matchups, and 2 "capital ship" units which aren't as useful except in super late game scenarios, shows your lack of understanding for how this game actually goes. It's pretty clear to me that skytoss/colossi is going to be tweaked a little bit as it literally is the BL/infestor comp of HOTS right now...not that it's impossible to beat, but it leads to boring ass games where you end up expanding aggressively but making a kill move is damn near impossible until the protoss moves into a favorable position. ESP on a map like akilon where P can lock down 4 bases within about 5 seconds walk of each other's chokes. Ask Artosis what he thinks of tempest/HT into tempest/vr/colossi with mass cannons for defence. We don't want the game to become "I'm going to turtle, get 3 of my tier3 units out en masse, then require you to be 2-3 bases ahead to trade efficiently enough to beat me.." Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone. It depends... Well, whole thing with Terran who think skytoss is OP is that they just go their heavy marauder composition and end up 'what the hell is this, how come I cant shot those ships down... OP'. Marine is not counter to protoss T3. You have vikings. You have Yamato cannons. You have ghosts. Your AA is best in the game. Skytoss in PvT does not really matter, it is PvP(where it is just mass voids) and PvZ where you have real problem as most of your AA is either crappy(Stalker, Hydralisk) or just simply does not work(Phoenix vs void rays dont work that well, corruptors are not even threat to voids). Same problem is for toss and zerg with new mutas. This comes from protoss player btw. About things in air, terrans should be silent, as they have best AA there is. And for people who complain about BC vs Tempest problem, guess what. Tempest fires 1 missile per 3 seconds. If he does not have real mass of phoenix or stalkers who also fire projectile(as voidray is projectile-less) PDDs will stop tempests for long time. For zerg players... against airtoss, I think ultras into killing all bases felt like most solid way to deal with air-toss... before he reaches critical mass. Dont know for sure... I'm not complaining about skytoss as Terran but I would like it noted that Vikings have the same problems dealing with void rays that corrupters do ATM. A lot of my protoss losses come from a Voidray/stalker/zealot/colossi mix which comes off a stargate oracle opening. Void rays with PA make it so that you need a much higher count of vikings, and also let the colossi get off more shots on your army; It's real easy to get your bio melted. I'm not saying it's broken but its hard to push someone who has 4 colossi, 3-4 void rays and a zealots as a mineral sink because your going to loose too much being agressive. I'm not saying it's anywhere near as problematic as in PvP PvZ where Skytoss is currently the dominant comp, but you can see in those matches WHY it is a problem in the matchup. An idea I would like to see what you guys think: change Prismatic Alignment so that it adds a certain % to damage based on charge-up rather than a straight +6 vs armored. You make it so that in the first couple stages of charge the damage will be less than it is now(so that the void rays are nerfed for initial damage), however when the damage stage increased the % will be one that causes them to do slightly more damage than before. I think a change like this would do wonders(because it now doesn't slaughter armored AA which is the main AA you used to fight it with), because the VR remains a strong unit(stronger than before if you don't micromanage or the Protoss has you pinned) but will allow savvy players to run in with Vikings/corrupter/phoenix and minimize damage by retreating before the strength of the Void Ray(sustained concentrated fire) tears them apart.
*edit I did not read whole post at start. My deepest apologies for I am tired.
KK just one thing... Not sure about your league but honestly... Are you sure this is not what whole your problem is about? Because I cant imagine using both colossi and voids as damage dealers at same time, as you cant have both upgraded (and with colos and zealot, you usually get ground upgrades then) and without upgrades, void rays vs upgraded army are practicaly just meatshield, however worse meatshield then, lets say... way more used for this purpose... phoenix? You are sure its not like 180 vs 150 supply situation? Because push you mentioned feels like something, that gives you big window, where you can, as often said by day 9 [go and fucking kill him] as getting both stargate tech and coli tech and upgrades for both feels like one big nonsense?
If that is not the case, I dont know. Anyways, still think that void ray ability should just lower dmg vs non armored in same time.
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On April 01 2013 08:54 FreeTossCZComentary wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 08:04 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On April 01 2013 07:21 FreeTossCZComentary wrote:On April 01 2013 07:02 ConGee wrote:On April 01 2013 05:28 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On March 31 2013 23:08 Rossie wrote:On March 31 2013 22:05 duct_TAPE wrote:
He has a point though, comparing cost size dosn't really mean anything if the other races dosn't have ANYTHING that compares, it means you have got to stop the protoss from getting to that point but if he does, it's over. I think that's what he argues. That's what Protoss players were saying when brood-infestor was at its heights. Nobody listened. The truth is, however, that we don't know whether Toss has an unbeatable late game army. Zergs should be experimenting with compositions like swarm host-corruptor, as they're doing in Korea. Terrans should be deploying ghosts, widow mines, thors, battlecruisers...the whole shebang. If you stick to marine-marauder the entire game, then frankly you deserve to lose. Have fun making widow mines work vs toss as anything except for harass tactics. Just by the fact you suggest Terran try out 2 units which are a staple in various matchups, and 2 "capital ship" units which aren't as useful except in super late game scenarios, shows your lack of understanding for how this game actually goes. It's pretty clear to me that skytoss/colossi is going to be tweaked a little bit as it literally is the BL/infestor comp of HOTS right now...not that it's impossible to beat, but it leads to boring ass games where you end up expanding aggressively but making a kill move is damn near impossible until the protoss moves into a favorable position. ESP on a map like akilon where P can lock down 4 bases within about 5 seconds walk of each other's chokes. Ask Artosis what he thinks of tempest/HT into tempest/vr/colossi with mass cannons for defence. We don't want the game to become "I'm going to turtle, get 3 of my tier3 units out en masse, then require you to be 2-3 bases ahead to trade efficiently enough to beat me.." Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone. It depends... Well, whole thing with Terran who think skytoss is OP is that they just go their heavy marauder composition and end up 'what the hell is this, how come I cant shot those ships down... OP'. Marine is not counter to protoss T3. You have vikings. You have Yamato cannons. You have ghosts. Your AA is best in the game. Skytoss in PvT does not really matter, it is PvP(where it is just mass voids) and PvZ where you have real problem as most of your AA is either crappy(Stalker, Hydralisk) or just simply does not work(Phoenix vs void rays dont work that well, corruptors are not even threat to voids). Same problem is for toss and zerg with new mutas. This comes from protoss player btw. About things in air, terrans should be silent, as they have best AA there is. And for people who complain about BC vs Tempest problem, guess what. Tempest fires 1 missile per 3 seconds. If he does not have real mass of phoenix or stalkers who also fire projectile(as voidray is projectile-less) PDDs will stop tempests for long time. For zerg players... against airtoss, I think ultras into killing all bases felt like most solid way to deal with air-toss... before he reaches critical mass. Dont know for sure... I'm not complaining about skytoss as Terran but I would like it noted that Vikings have the same problems dealing with void rays that corrupters do ATM. A lot of my protoss losses come from a Voidray/stalker/zealot/colossi mix which comes off a stargate oracle opening. Void rays with PA make it so that you need a much higher count of vikings, and also let the colossi get off more shots on your army; It's real easy to get your bio melted. I'm not saying it's broken but its hard to push someone who has 4 colossi, 3-4 void rays and a zealots as a mineral sink because your going to loose too much being agressive. I'm not saying it's anywhere near as problematic as in PvP PvZ where Skytoss is currently the dominant comp, but you can see in those matches WHY it is a problem in the matchup. An idea I would like to see what you guys think: change Prismatic Alignment so that it adds a certain % to damage based on charge-up rather than a straight +6 vs armored. You make it so that in the first couple stages of charge the damage will be less than it is now(so that the void rays are nerfed for initial damage), however when the damage stage increased the % will be one that causes them to do slightly more damage than before. I think a change like this would do wonders(because it now doesn't slaughter armored AA which is the main AA you used to fight it with), because the VR remains a strong unit(stronger than before if you don't micromanage or the Protoss has you pinned) but will allow savvy players to run in with Vikings/corrupter/phoenix and minimize damage by retreating before the strength of the Void Ray(sustained concentrated fire) tears them apart. *edit I did not read whole post at start. My deepest apologies for I am tired. KK just one thing... Not sure about your league but honestly... Are you sure this is not what whole your problem is about? Because I cant imagine using both colossi and voids as damage dealers at same time, as you cant have both upgraded (and with colos and zealot, you usually get ground upgrades then) and without upgrades, void rays vs upgraded army are practicaly just meatshield, however worse meatshield then, lets say... way more used for this purpose... phoenix? You are sure its not like 180 vs 150 supply situation? Because push you mentioned feels like something, that gives you big window, where you can, as often said by day 9 [go and fucking kill him] as getting both stargate tech and coli tech and upgrades for both feels like one big nonsense? If that is not the case, I dont know. Anyways, still think that void ray ability should just lower dmg vs non armored in same time.
League=Masters. It's not so much as using void rays as damage dealers per se, but having 2-3 of them out along with collo tech is easy when you have opened oracle expand, not like you do a 1gate FE and then throw down robo/SG next to each other. They are literally only there to fight off your vikings, which even with no upgrades(all games I played the guys doing it didn't get VR ups) will trade fairly well with vikings which should only have 1 or 2 upgrades(usually attack, although I'm going to try going for plating next time i see this build). It seems like alot of gas on 2-3 base but it is more zealot heavy.
Let me clarify how it works; you do standard 6-7 viking, trying to snipe collo and put pressure while dropping. But with VR and a few stalkers your vikings are easy prey, and if you misclick/get unlucky/lose them without downing every single colossi, or try to fight while they are buisy fighting voids too, you will end up in a situation where the Protoss can roll over you because you 1. will lose too much ground army and his will be bigger and 2. you will never be able to kill off his AOE cost efficiently.
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On March 31 2013 17:37 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 17:26 Rabiator wrote:On March 31 2013 12:42 aksfjh wrote:On March 31 2013 12:37 Emzeeshady wrote:On March 31 2013 12:35 aksfjh wrote:On March 31 2013 12:30 Emzeeshady wrote:On March 31 2013 12:19 aksfjh wrote:On March 31 2013 11:51 Innovation wrote:On March 31 2013 08:56 Innovation wrote:
Show nested quote +
That's interesting because I constantly see no name terrans destroying zergs they shouldn't even be close to beating. I just spent the last two hours watching Stephano get destroyed by Demuslim over and over and over again. Stephano never even got close to winning in any of the games. Nothing against Demuslim but we all know he shouldn't be able to yawn his way to victory 7-0 over Stephano.
You have to be delusional not to realize that Terran is OP vs Zerg right now. I'd say easily even more OP than broodlord/infestor pre-nerf.
stephano also never makes muta, ever, even though the meta calls for muta atm I do find it frustrating that he doesn't use muta since it feels like the only viable option against bio/mine but I don't think it invalidates the point. Even those zergs that are using muta are struggling against terran. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Kww09Ne.png) Look at all the Zerg GMs struggling on the Korean server, apparently the only region that Terrans know how to play the race to boot. Way to judge balance from ladder games ... Just trying to point out that Zerg isn't "struggling" like suggested. Ok, but you will need better proof then that. If what you are saying is true then just wait for the next GSL and let it play out. So far all legitimate results point the other way but the sample size is indeed small. That's what I'm trying to say. There's nothing pointing to Terrans needing to be nerfed, nor any other race right now. However, we have 3/4 of TL posting like speedvacs are going to be nerfed already, as if there are clear signs that they break all matchups. We should be playing the "wait and see" game for ALL races and situations for right now. The one reason I would give for this turbo boost discussion is that this boost is a bad design from the start just like many others and that they are making low league play rather terrible. Lower league = slower reaction, less map awareness and generally worse multitasking capability ... but those people do want to have fun playing the game and it is a bad thing to being forced to have a laundry list of "Zerg dont do Baneling busts, Protoss dont do warp in and Forcefield ramp-blockage and Terrans dont do bunker rushes and turbo boost drops" when you are playing for fun with your friends. Only looking at the top end of the food chain is a terrible way to balance and design a game, because that will slowly wither the bottom end. Professionals will always be able to handle faster games because that is what they are training all day long, but this is a GAME and it is supposed to be about HAVING FUN. Thus it needs to be a bit "blunt" in its design with some "mechanical resistance" (forced unit spreading while moving and 12 unit selection limit) for the pros to work against. They can manage it usually. Too much speed and too many buttons to click just overwhelm the majority of mediocre and worse players and that is bad. Simplicity was part of the appeal of BW compared to Total Annihlation for example ... Thus people should stop comparing this pro and that pro with each other ... they dont really matter for game design ... and rather try to think about how the lower end of the ladder will think about new stuff. So far, it seems to be working out much better than WoL. By the end of WoL, the game essentially turned into a 2 race game at every level below Korean pro, bronze, and the campaign. And how can you claim to champion simplicity while lobbying for the 12 unit selection cap? That makes the game needlessly complicated...
You don't seem to think your own thoughts through that well. A 12 unit selection cap only makes sense in an environment with low production. In such an environment it is far more important to control your units and keep them alive, thus it isnt necessary to make new groups every minute or two as it is in the "run into battle and replace" environment of SC2.
Do you really think that 12 six-year-olds are harder to control than 50?
Do you really think that writing a programming code of 500 lines is better than cutting up the whole "problem" into small chunks and dealing with them individually?
Smaller is better and far easier to control ... and since it works for both sides it is really fair. The most important point of it is that the killing speed is reduced by a lot and thus it gives more time to react ... which makes the game easier to play for casuals.
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On April 01 2013 04:00 TimENT wrote:
After seeing Stephano lose to Demuslim about 20 times in a row now...it's extremely obvious to me that it has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Stephano hasn't adapted at all. Every game Stephano is super defensive with zero mutalisks and tries to build up ultra/infestor. I mean, jeez Stephano, adapt!
Well that's the point Stephano complained about, you have to be defensive all game long against terran right now because of the threat of drops and Terran defensive position has been buffed with widow mine and siege tank without upgrade to be searched so it's way harder to do damage. What Life did at MLG was mostly a lot of baneling bust at different timings, it was smart because he exploited the metagames but it's not a solution overall . Widow mine are so much better than tank to be agressive with because of the cost of the unit and the fact it goes by two at the factory, the speed at which it burrow (faster than a tank to go in siege mode) the fact that it hit both air and ground at the same time. Stephano tried Roach/Hydra/viper, Hydra/infestor, ling ultra fast ultralisk, ling infestor ultralisk but in the end he struggles to be agressive with any kind of composition because bio+ mines is so much cost efficient, so much mobile and easy to max with that he couldn't attack the heart of the terran base.
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On April 01 2013 20:48 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 04:00 TimENT wrote:
After seeing Stephano lose to Demuslim about 20 times in a row now...it's extremely obvious to me that it has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Stephano hasn't adapted at all. Every game Stephano is super defensive with zero mutalisks and tries to build up ultra/infestor. I mean, jeez Stephano, adapt! Well that's the point Stephano complained about, you have to be defensive all game long against terran right now because of the threat of drops and Terran defensive position has been buffed with widow mine and siege tank without upgrade to be searched so it's way harder to do damage. What Life did at MLG was mostly a lot of baneling bust at different timings, it was smart because he exploited the metagames but it's not a solution overall . Widow mine are so much better than tank to be agressive with because of the cost of the unit and the fact it goes by two at the factory, the speed at which it burrow (faster than a tank to go in siege mode) the fact that it hit both air and ground at the same time. Stephano tried Roach/Hydra/viper, Hydra/infestor, ling ultra fast ultralisk, ling infestor ultralisk but in the end he struggles to be agressive with any kind of composition because bio+ mines is so much cost efficient, so much mobile and easy to max with that he couldn't attack the heart of the terran base.
And he never tried ling bling muta, while the meta calls for it.
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On April 01 2013 07:02 ConGee wrote:
Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone.
Swarm hosts are countered by void rays alone? Last I knew.
A good Zerg can simply camp his swarm hosts behind spore crawlers. Your void ray won't be able to engage and won't be able to defend. That is what Koreans are doing. You won't stand a chance.
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On April 02 2013 18:44 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 07:02 ConGee wrote:
Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone.
Swarm hosts are countered by void rays alone? Last I knew.
It's an armored unit that can't shoot up and you don't think it is countered by void rays?
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On April 02 2013 23:43 orewakami wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 18:44 Rossie wrote:On April 01 2013 07:02 ConGee wrote:
Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone.
Swarm hosts are countered by void rays alone? Last I knew. It's an armored unit that can't shoot up and you don't think it is countered by void rays?
You ignored half his post. Yes the unit itself is countered. But playing smart with them and camping them under spores and AA means that they are safe. You can't discuss balance on a strictly one-to-one basis in Starcraft, there are too many other interactions.
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On April 01 2013 08:04 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 07:21 FreeTossCZComentary wrote:On April 01 2013 07:02 ConGee wrote:On April 01 2013 05:28 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On March 31 2013 23:08 Rossie wrote:On March 31 2013 22:05 duct_TAPE wrote:
He has a point though, comparing cost size dosn't really mean anything if the other races dosn't have ANYTHING that compares, it means you have got to stop the protoss from getting to that point but if he does, it's over. I think that's what he argues. That's what Protoss players were saying when brood-infestor was at its heights. Nobody listened. The truth is, however, that we don't know whether Toss has an unbeatable late game army. Zergs should be experimenting with compositions like swarm host-corruptor, as they're doing in Korea. Terrans should be deploying ghosts, widow mines, thors, battlecruisers...the whole shebang. If you stick to marine-marauder the entire game, then frankly you deserve to lose. Have fun making widow mines work vs toss as anything except for harass tactics. Just by the fact you suggest Terran try out 2 units which are a staple in various matchups, and 2 "capital ship" units which aren't as useful except in super late game scenarios, shows your lack of understanding for how this game actually goes. It's pretty clear to me that skytoss/colossi is going to be tweaked a little bit as it literally is the BL/infestor comp of HOTS right now...not that it's impossible to beat, but it leads to boring ass games where you end up expanding aggressively but making a kill move is damn near impossible until the protoss moves into a favorable position. ESP on a map like akilon where P can lock down 4 bases within about 5 seconds walk of each other's chokes. Ask Artosis what he thinks of tempest/HT into tempest/vr/colossi with mass cannons for defence. We don't want the game to become "I'm going to turtle, get 3 of my tier3 units out en masse, then require you to be 2-3 bases ahead to trade efficiently enough to beat me.." Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone. It depends... Well, whole thing with Terran who think skytoss is OP is that they just go their heavy marauder composition and end up 'what the hell is this, how come I cant shot those ships down... OP'. Marine is not counter to protoss T3. You have vikings. You have Yamato cannons. You have ghosts. Your AA is best in the game. Skytoss in PvT does not really matter, it is PvP(where it is just mass voids) and PvZ where you have real problem as most of your AA is either crappy(Stalker, Hydralisk) or just simply does not work(Phoenix vs void rays dont work that well, corruptors are not even threat to voids). Same problem is for toss and zerg with new mutas. This comes from protoss player btw. About things in air, terrans should be silent, as they have best AA there is. And for people who complain about BC vs Tempest problem, guess what. Tempest fires 1 missile per 3 seconds. If he does not have real mass of phoenix or stalkers who also fire projectile(as voidray is projectile-less) PDDs will stop tempests for long time. For zerg players... against airtoss, I think ultras into killing all bases felt like most solid way to deal with air-toss... before he reaches critical mass. Dont know for sure... I'm not complaining about skytoss as Terran but I would like it noted that Vikings have the same problems dealing with void rays that corrupters do ATM. A lot of my protoss losses come from a Voidray/stalker/zealot/colossi mix which comes off a stargate oracle opening. Void rays with PA make it so that you need a much higher count of vikings, and also let the colossi get off more shots on your army; It's real easy to get your bio melted. I'm not saying it's broken but its hard to push someone who has 4 colossi, 3-4 void rays and a zealots as a mineral sink because your going to loose too much being agressive. I'm not saying it's anywhere near as problematic as in PvP PvZ where Skytoss is currently the dominant comp, but you can see in those matches WHY it is a problem in the matchup.
Vikings do not suffer the same problem as the Corruptor. Corruptor and void rays are both range 6, vikings are range 9 and can kite voidrays to death
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Austria24422 Posts
On April 02 2013 23:43 orewakami wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 18:44 Rossie wrote:On April 01 2013 07:02 ConGee wrote:
Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone.
Swarm hosts are countered by void rays alone? Last I knew. It's an armored unit that can't shoot up and you don't think it is countered by void rays?
Zerg will always have anti air. The most standard is swarmhost/hydra/corruptor with overseers or the 2base version which is swarm host/queen/mass spores + spines. Void rays are not exactly what you want. At all.
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On April 02 2013 18:44 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 07:02 ConGee wrote:
Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone.
Swarm hosts are countered by void rays alone? Last I knew. A good Zerg can simply camp his swarm hosts behind spore crawlers. Your void ray won't be able to engage and won't be able to defend. That is what Koreans are doing. You won't stand a chance.
That's an all in build that doesn't work in the end game once they mix in collosi/templar or if they mix in carrier/ tempest.
It's also a build that fails if the toss has good map awareness as you won't be able to effectively get your spores up in time. Going for spores in the middle of the map also requires OL speed which can once again be scouted easily.
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Austria24422 Posts
On April 03 2013 02:59 ConGee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 18:44 Rossie wrote:On April 01 2013 07:02 ConGee wrote:
Still found it funnier that he suggested a composition for zerg which gets hard-countered by void rays alone.
Swarm hosts are countered by void rays alone? Last I knew. A good Zerg can simply camp his swarm hosts behind spore crawlers. Your void ray won't be able to engage and won't be able to defend. That is what Koreans are doing. You won't stand a chance. That's an all in build that doesn't work in the end game once they mix in collosi/templar or if they mix in carrier/ tempest. It's also a build that fails if the toss has good map awareness as you won't be able to effectively get your spores up in time. Going for spores in the middle of the map also requires OL speed which can once again be scouted easily.
Tell me one thing you don't want to do as protoss if you don't scout a 3rd from zerg.
+ Show Spoiler +the answer is "being out on the map"
Zerg has all the freedom in the world to put up spores and spines whenever they want. There's usually not overlord speed with it but a nydus worm and queens to spread creep. Unless you burn your first sentry energy on a hallucination (which is super risky), you'll only know when your first whatever scouting unit makes it to their base or you hear the nydus scream. By that time, locusts will already be trading very very efficiently against your wall.
Your argument is pretty flawed tbh. Brood Lord/Infestor didn't work in WoL super endgame. Does that mean it was actually weak and we just didn't know? No, it was strong as hell. It dominated the lategame stage of PvZ. Much like Swarm Host play (with support ofc) will absolutely dominate the midgame unless you react to it properly. And void rays are NOT the proper reaction.
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On April 01 2013 21:05 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 20:48 Vanadiel wrote:On April 01 2013 04:00 TimENT wrote:
After seeing Stephano lose to Demuslim about 20 times in a row now...it's extremely obvious to me that it has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Stephano hasn't adapted at all. Every game Stephano is super defensive with zero mutalisks and tries to build up ultra/infestor. I mean, jeez Stephano, adapt! Well that's the point Stephano complained about, you have to be defensive all game long against terran right now because of the threat of drops and Terran defensive position has been buffed with widow mine and siege tank without upgrade to be searched so it's way harder to do damage. What Life did at MLG was mostly a lot of baneling bust at different timings, it was smart because he exploited the metagames but it's not a solution overall . Widow mine are so much better than tank to be agressive with because of the cost of the unit and the fact it goes by two at the factory, the speed at which it burrow (faster than a tank to go in siege mode) the fact that it hit both air and ground at the same time. Stephano tried Roach/Hydra/viper, Hydra/infestor, ling ultra fast ultralisk, ling infestor ultralisk but in the end he struggles to be agressive with any kind of composition because bio+ mines is so much cost efficient, so much mobile and easy to max with that he couldn't attack the heart of the terran base. And he never tried ling bling muta, while the meta calls for it.
He tried it several times.
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On April 03 2013 02:59 ConGee wrote:
That's an all in build that doesn't work in the end game once they mix in collosi/templar or if they mix in carrier/ tempest.
It's also a build that fails if the toss has good map awareness as you won't be able to effectively get your spores up in time. Going for spores in the middle of the map also requires OL speed which can once again be scouted easily. I never said it's an unstoppable composition. Just that it isn't stopped by spamming void rays.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On April 01 2013 21:05 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 20:48 Vanadiel wrote:On April 01 2013 04:00 TimENT wrote:
After seeing Stephano lose to Demuslim about 20 times in a row now...it's extremely obvious to me that it has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Stephano hasn't adapted at all. Every game Stephano is super defensive with zero mutalisks and tries to build up ultra/infestor. I mean, jeez Stephano, adapt! Well that's the point Stephano complained about, you have to be defensive all game long against terran right now because of the threat of drops and Terran defensive position has been buffed with widow mine and siege tank without upgrade to be searched so it's way harder to do damage. What Life did at MLG was mostly a lot of baneling bust at different timings, it was smart because he exploited the metagames but it's not a solution overall . Widow mine are so much better than tank to be agressive with because of the cost of the unit and the fact it goes by two at the factory, the speed at which it burrow (faster than a tank to go in siege mode) the fact that it hit both air and ground at the same time. Stephano tried Roach/Hydra/viper, Hydra/infestor, ling ultra fast ultralisk, ling infestor ultralisk but in the end he struggles to be agressive with any kind of composition because bio+ mines is so much cost efficient, so much mobile and easy to max with that he couldn't attack the heart of the terran base. And he never tried ling bling muta, while the meta calls for it.
Demuslim's splits are just godlike.
Yes, Stephano did try it on several occasions, granted, he should have been more active with his Mutas, but again, he was afraid he might lose a big chunk of Muta flock to a couple of well-placed mines or something.
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On April 03 2013 15:27 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 21:05 PanzerElite wrote:On April 01 2013 20:48 Vanadiel wrote:On April 01 2013 04:00 TimENT wrote:
After seeing Stephano lose to Demuslim about 20 times in a row now...it's extremely obvious to me that it has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Stephano hasn't adapted at all. Every game Stephano is super defensive with zero mutalisks and tries to build up ultra/infestor. I mean, jeez Stephano, adapt! Well that's the point Stephano complained about, you have to be defensive all game long against terran right now because of the threat of drops and Terran defensive position has been buffed with widow mine and siege tank without upgrade to be searched so it's way harder to do damage. What Life did at MLG was mostly a lot of baneling bust at different timings, it was smart because he exploited the metagames but it's not a solution overall . Widow mine are so much better than tank to be agressive with because of the cost of the unit and the fact it goes by two at the factory, the speed at which it burrow (faster than a tank to go in siege mode) the fact that it hit both air and ground at the same time. Stephano tried Roach/Hydra/viper, Hydra/infestor, ling ultra fast ultralisk, ling infestor ultralisk but in the end he struggles to be agressive with any kind of composition because bio+ mines is so much cost efficient, so much mobile and easy to max with that he couldn't attack the heart of the terran base. And he never tried ling bling muta, while the meta calls for it. Demuslim's splits are just godlike. Yes, Stephano did try it on several occasions, granted, he should have been more active with his Mutas, but again, he was afraid he might lose a big chunk of Muta flock to a couple of well-placed mines or something.
Stephano has never been good with muta style play, even in WoL. The metagame doesn't suit him right now and it doesn't look as if he's willing to change it in earnest.
Overall, I'm starting to get worried about Pro toss. They have strong tools, but lack presence on ladder. They seem a little UP overall, but have strong all ins as well. Something to look out for.
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Im surprised this hasn't been getting much attention.. the siege tanks are a dying species superseded by widow mines. The widow mines have simply taken the tanks role in TvZ, tanks aren't used in TvP/widow mines are more useful and sort of 50/50 in TvT but bio is often the tech choice.
I tend to think that it is the time to give a tank a buff in form of an upgrade or just something to make players get them instead of being mothballed within their factories.
Thoughts?
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On April 03 2013 15:27 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 21:05 PanzerElite wrote:On April 01 2013 20:48 Vanadiel wrote:On April 01 2013 04:00 TimENT wrote:
After seeing Stephano lose to Demuslim about 20 times in a row now...it's extremely obvious to me that it has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Stephano hasn't adapted at all. Every game Stephano is super defensive with zero mutalisks and tries to build up ultra/infestor. I mean, jeez Stephano, adapt! Well that's the point Stephano complained about, you have to be defensive all game long against terran right now because of the threat of drops and Terran defensive position has been buffed with widow mine and siege tank without upgrade to be searched so it's way harder to do damage. What Life did at MLG was mostly a lot of baneling bust at different timings, it was smart because he exploited the metagames but it's not a solution overall . Widow mine are so much better than tank to be agressive with because of the cost of the unit and the fact it goes by two at the factory, the speed at which it burrow (faster than a tank to go in siege mode) the fact that it hit both air and ground at the same time. Stephano tried Roach/Hydra/viper, Hydra/infestor, ling ultra fast ultralisk, ling infestor ultralisk but in the end he struggles to be agressive with any kind of composition because bio+ mines is so much cost efficient, so much mobile and easy to max with that he couldn't attack the heart of the terran base. And he never tried ling bling muta, while the meta calls for it. Demuslim's splits are just godlike. Yes, Stephano did try it on several occasions, granted, he should have been more active with his Mutas, but again, he was afraid he might lose a big chunk of Muta flock to a couple of well-placed mines or something.
the whole point of ladder is to warm up and practice. You shouldn't only stick to only one style of play, especially when it is not the most optimal style currently.
Also I have no idea how people could lose mutas to widow mines during harassment. Turn up your graphics helps alot on spotting the mines
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EPT
