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On July 18 2012 04:33 s1ege wrote:One thing I'd like to point out is units. The some units are overpowered and imbalanced. This is what Blizz needs to do in terms of unit balance: + Show Spoiler +Terran:
Replace Marauder with Firebat
Replace Medivac with Medic and Dropship
Replace Raven with Science Vessel
Take away Snipe and EMP from ghosts and give EMP to science Vessels
Replace Banshees with Wraiths
Replace Vikings with Valkyries
Replace Thors with Goliaths
No Reapers
No MULES or supply drops
No reactors
No Hellions
Supply depots can't burrow
Protoss:
Replace the Immortal and Colossus with Reaver
Replace Warp Prisms with Shuttle
Replace Stalkers with Dragoons
Take away Sentries
Take feedback away from high Templars and give to Dark Archons
HT's can only morph to Archons and DT's can only morph to Dark Archons
Replace Void Rays and Phoenix with Scout, Arbiter and Corsair
Bring back shield battery
Take away mothership
Take away warp gate research
Take away Chronoboost
Replace zealot charge with zealot speed boost
Zerg:
Take away Roach and Banelings
Let Hydralisks morph into Lurkers
Replace Infestors with Defilers
Replace Corruptors with Scourge
Let mutalisks morph into either Guardians or Devourer
Turn the queen into a flying Lair phase unit with the ability to infest burning Command Centers
Repalce Nydus Worm with Nydus Canal
Take awak Overseer
Replace Creep tumors with Creep Colony and they can also turn into either Spore or Sunken colonies
Remove Brood Lords
Its called StarCraft 2
Not StarCraft: Remake
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On July 18 2012 04:42 dvorakftw wrote:Click here to see results since the Queen buff: Direct comments on the infograph that would sidetrack the thread can be posted here on reddit.
edit: oops didn't read the author, nice compilation anyway
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I think all that is needed is a small tank buff and fungal growth not decreasing movement speed to 0, but to 50% or something... Should fix all matcups.
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On July 18 2012 05:07 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +
You aren't vulnerable to most pressures if you don't open utterly passively and decide instead to cut Drones at ~60 in favour of making units like Steph/DRG do against Toss. This was a pure metagame evolution that showed how Zerg is meant to be played. Unfortunately, the silly attitude perpetuated by the Beta Zergs (like Idra) led everyone to believe that Zerg was all about just trying to be passive, deflect pressure, and get 80 Drones. That just isn't true anymore and it's the real reason Zergs were losing and underrepresented, not because of imbalance (in the last year; obviously Zerg was underpowered before that).
Do you even know what you are talking about? Befor the extreme fast 3rd in PvZ and TvZ, Zerg was 2 Basing and taking the third behind aggression (ling/bling/muta was 2 base vs T, the same with Roach/Hydra) that failed completely as both Toss and Terra learned how to defend with a minimum of units and teching up hard behind. The 2 Base Ling/Bling/Muta Zerg was always behind in upgrades because his 2 base gas income had to be split between Muta count and Blings while terra went for mass marines with a few medivacs and even fewer tanks to snipe banelings. 2 Base Toss just STOMPED 2 Base Zerg left and right, so zerg figured out they need very fast 3rd, but there we had XNC, Shattered and other maps which denied a fast 3rd. So please... get at least your facts in your biased hatespeech right. No Zerg droned up to 80 without building units. Hard to do that on 2 bases.
I'm not talking about pre-fast third Zerg. I'm talking about pre-patch Zerg. Fast third has been standard for eons now.
As for pre-fast third against Terran, you guys were doing just fine. You don't need a third before 5 minutes against Terran to be competitive. You just don't.
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On July 18 2012 05:45 Zheega wrote:
I think all that is needed is a small tank buff and fungal growth not decreasing movement speed to 0, but to 50% or something... Should fix all matcups.
If we were to take that path for fungal, 50% is not enough because stim increases the speed by 50% to offset it completely.
75% would be fair I guess.
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On July 18 2012 05:50 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:45 Zheega wrote:
I think all that is needed is a small tank buff and fungal growth not decreasing movement speed to 0, but to 50% or something... Should fix all matcups. If we were to take that path for fungal, 50% is not enough because stim increases the speed by 50% to offset it completely. 75% would be fair I guess.
He means 50% off of their current movement speed. So if a marine runs @ 100 (just as an example) and stims to 150, fungal still brings it down to 75. And you're still taking damage from fungal at the same.
I wouldn't complain about the versatility of infestors if their counterparts were as well-rounded. Right now you just see Zergs running around with 20 of them, on a stronger economy, trading energy for money - it's just silly.
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It's a delicate balance to make. The infestors are the only energy unit that cannot attack or morph into something useful after energy spent. So straight nerfing fungal that hard could result in putting zergs back into the dark days.
I'd say nerf fungal move speed from 0 to something reasonable... But also let infestors do something useful after using energy.
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As for pre-fast third against Terran, you guys were doing just fine. You don't need a third before 5 minutes against Terran to be competitive. You just don't.
I can understand the terran pov, but I really cant stand you toss jumping on the bandwagon. PvZ ist stale, boring to watch and boring to play but its balanced. Blame Warp in mechanic.
In TvZ Terra is at a slight disadvantage at the moment, maybe it needs a fix, maybe not. But I really really hate these bigot statements: "When the MU was balanced I had a 70% winrate against zerg, now it dropped to 30%... wtf! Zerg OP!"
The same with progamers "There just a few top ZvT Players like DRG (51,6%) because zerg players suck in general and terran players just are naturally gifted, work harder, are more intelligent and handsome (worst winrate of the worst TvZ player still > 50%)
And to be honest... I really enjoy the queen buff as it helped a ton to stabilize ZvZ.
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On July 18 2012 05:52 Kodak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:50 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 05:45 Zheega wrote:
I think all that is needed is a small tank buff and fungal growth not decreasing movement speed to 0, but to 50% or something... Should fix all matcups. If we were to take that path for fungal, 50% is not enough because stim increases the speed by 50% to offset it completely. 75% would be fair I guess. He means 50% off of their current movement speed. So if a marine runs @ 100 (just as an example) and stims to 150, fungal still brings it down to 75. And you're still taking damage from fungal at the same. I wouldn't complain about the versatility of infestors if their counterparts were as well-rounded. Right now you just see Zergs running around with 20 of them, on a stronger economy, trading energy for money - it's just silly.
With 50% speed decrease,
Hellion =2.13
Stimmed marine/marauder =1.69
Viking =1.38
Phoenix =2.13
Speed Warpprism =1.69
Stalker = 1.48
Compare them to normal movement speed
Unstimmed marine/marauder = sentry/immortal/colossus/Void Ray = 2.25
Thor/HT/Carrier =1.88
Broodlord/Mothership =1.41
Queen off creep =0.94
I...just don't think this works. Units are too fast under fungal this way. Stalkers under fungal would move faster than BL.
75% speed decrease would be half those speeds, which I consider reasonable change.
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ZvT feels a lot more fair in the beginning/midgame. The end game is, I'm not going to say 'too easy' because it's not, but the end game is too strong for zerg in zvt. But I don't think we should be nerfing z that much, since protoss don't really struggle all that much versus zergs imo. The carrier is getting more attention and I fear that if we'd change fungal growth or broodlords, protoss will just dominate.
Why not make the terran end game stronger? Give them a way to spend their gas, I often see even pro terrans float thousands of gas in the end game (in zvt).
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On July 18 2012 05:15 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 19:44 eXdeath wrote:
Don't you think it's all a bit planned by Blizzard?
I mean, Terran being OP at the launch and first months of Wings of Liberty (most new players would pick Terran at this time, it was the campaign, etc.)
Zerg being OP for the launch of HOTS (most new players will play the Zerg campaign and will want to pick Zerg in multiplayer)
I don't think it's a good "excuse", but maybe there is some marketing reason behind this.
I'm pretty convinced this is whats going on. I really think it's that simple.
If this isn't what is happening, I'd be worried about Blizzard's ability to see. At least this way you can justify it
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On July 18 2012 05:21 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 04:33 s1ege wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
One thing I'd like to point out is units. The some units are overpowered and imbalanced. This is what Blizz needs to do in terms of unit balance:
Terran:
Replace Marauder with Firebat
Replace Medivac with Medic and Dropship
Replace Raven with Science Vessel
Take away Snipe and EMP from ghosts and give EMP to science Vessels
Replace Banshees with Wraiths
Replace Vikings with Valkyries
Replace Thors with Goliaths
No Reapers
No MULES or supply drops
No reactors
No Hellions
Supply depots can't burrow
Protoss:
Replace the Immortal and Colossus with Reaver
Replace Warp Prisms with Shuttle
Replace Stalkers with Dragoons
Take away Sentries
Take feedback away from high Templars and give to Dark Archons
HT's can only morph to Archons and DT's can only morph to Dark Archons
Replace Void Rays and Phoenix with Scout, Arbiter and Corsair
Bring back shield battery
Take away mothership
Take away warp gate research
Take away Chronoboost
Replace zealot charge with zealot speed boost
Zerg:
Take away Roach and Banelings
Let Hydralisks morph into Lurkers
Replace Infestors with Defilers
Replace Corruptors with Scourge
Let mutalisks morph into either Guardians or Devourer
Turn the queen into a flying Lair phase unit with the ability to infest burning Command Centers
Repalce Nydus Worm with Nydus Canal
Take awak Overseer
Replace Creep tumors with Creep Colony and they can also turn into either Spore or Sunken colonies
Remove Brood Lords
Why spend the time to write all that out when you just could have said, make BW with the SC2 engine...
Ironically doing all of that would probably be broken as hell. Because the balling effect in the SC2 engine and the way improved pathing would create massive imbalances with regard to super-concentrated DPS balls and AoE damage.
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On July 18 2012 04:42 dvorakftw wrote:Click here to see results since the Queen buff: Direct comments on the infograph that would sidetrack the thread can be posted here on reddit.
Quality graphs.
I agree that zerg might be a little bit OP at the moment but I don't believe it's because of the added queen range or because of the infestors. It's mainly because of the lack of counter to broodlords.
My balance suggestions:
¨
Zerg:
Make queens cost larva. Slows down the economy of zergs just a little.
Terran:
Change ghost snipe from 25 (+25 vs Psionic) to 35 (+15 vs Psionic). Snipe will be usable against broodlords again but probably not be worth it against ultralisks.
Protoss:
Increase void rays bonus agains massive from +20% to +50% or +100% damage. Void rays get some end game utility against zerg.
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On July 18 2012 06:25 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +As for pre-fast third against Terran, you guys were doing just fine. You don't need a third before 5 minutes against Terran to be competitive. You just don't. I can understand the terran pov, but I really cant stand you toss jumping on the bandwagon. PvZ ist stale, boring to watch and boring to play but its balanced. Blame Warp in mechanic. In TvZ Terra is at a slight disadvantage at the moment, maybe it needs a fix, maybe not. But I really really hate these bigot statements: "When the MU was balanced I had a 70% winrate against zerg, now it dropped to 30%... wtf! Zerg OP!" The same with progamers "There just a few top ZvT Players like DRG (51,6%) because zerg players suck in general and terran players just are naturally gifted, work harder, are more intelligent and handsome (worst winrate of the worst TvZ player still > 50%) And to be honest... I really enjoy the queen buff as it helped a ton to stabilize ZvZ.
In no way is PvZ balanced when one race can only 2base all-in. And no, this isn't up for debate. Macro PvZ is incredibly Zerg favoured since every P pressure has been neutered to the point of uselessness. Everyone sees this except you, and you keep talking as if the matchup being balanced is something everyone should agree on.
Either stop misrepresenting my point of view or stop replying to me. You have yet to make an actual argument with regard to anything I've said. You've stepped over into pointlessly Zerg biased whining.
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You have yet to make an actual argument with regard to anything I've said.
And no, this isn't up for debate.
There is no statement you ever cared to bring proof or even a half decent argument.
All you are saying is: "Toss is terribly underpowered! Anyone can see that! Its a known fact!"
So how or better WHY should I comment your "arguments"? Sorry Im not going down to THAT level of "discussion".
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On July 18 2012 06:57 Charon1979 wrote:There is no statement you ever cared to bring proof or even a half decent argument. All you are saying is: "Toss is terribly underpowered! Anyone can see that! Its a known fact!" So how or better WHY should I comment your "arguments"? Sorry Im not going down to THAT level of "discussion".
I've already explained in about 5 times over over the past 30 pages. It's not my fault if you don't bother to read the posts. Several Zerg players have even agreed with me in this thread that nobody can really contest Zerg's macro style right now because of how immune it is and because of how strong Inject is.
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On July 18 2012 06:32 wcr.4fun wrote:
Why not make the terran end game stronger? Give them a way to spend their gas, I often see even pro terrans float thousands of gas in the end game (in zvt).
Byun said in an interview after he 3-0 NesTea in Code S that Battlecruisers and Ravens will beat late game zerg he just never got to show us during those matches since none of them went late game.
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On July 18 2012 05:15 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 19:44 eXdeath wrote:
Don't you think it's all a bit planned by Blizzard?
I mean, Terran being OP at the launch and first months of Wings of Liberty (most new players would pick Terran at this time, it was the campaign, etc.)
Zerg being OP for the launch of HOTS (most new players will play the Zerg campaign and will want to pick Zerg in multiplayer)
I don't think it's a good "excuse", but maybe there is some marketing reason behind this.
I'm pretty convinced this is whats going on. I really think it's that simple.
Yes, this sums it all up nicely. Terran went from stupidly strong to a shadow of its former self because harassment is now "balanced" to. When you look at all the nerfs terran has gotten its pretty bizar how badly blizzard nailed it at launch unless it whas intentional. Im so curious what blizzard is going to do now that the terran holocaust is beginning. Wings of Liberty will not be forgotten even when the new expansion comes along.
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Instead of giving snipe back it's full damage.. leave it as is, and just reduce the Mana by half. It will allow Terrans to kill broods and ultras in double the time as pre patch. It'll give zergs time to run back (Micro lol) instead of just dying in 10 seconds.
Plus like i said before, Queens use a larva and takes double the time to come out. Zerg's are making queens so fast nowadays, I've seen people mass queens in 3v3 and 4v4 off couple hatcheries. You should never max out on queens that fast.
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EPT
