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On July 18 2012 03:34 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Blizzard's take is to say that TvZ is fine. Their original premise for the Queen buff was pro players having problems with the 4 Hellion contain forgodssake.
No pro was having any trouble with any 4 hellion contains. As a matter of fact, at the time roach contains were pretty popular forgodssake.
And surely the new take of Blizzard will be slightly different considering almost all tournaments had terrans falling out left and right and win rate in TvZ is about 30% in pro games (don't look at the fake ratings that were posted on TL). So now zerg is going to be severely nerfed, probably decrease fungal damage with 50% and increase creep recede speed imo.
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On July 18 2012 03:30 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:23 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 03:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 01:54 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 01:38 uzushould wrote:
let the statistics speak for them selfs:
OVERALL SUMMERY:
Zerg: 15
Protoss: 19
Terran: 6
Looks bad, does it? How about what went on before the Queen change when many say everything was fine: Between patch 1.4.3 (Ghost change) and 1.4.3 BU (Queen change): IEM S6 MLG Winter Champ GSL S2 IPL S4 Dreamhack Stockholm Ro8 15 P 17 T 7 Z Winners: 4 T 1 P Sure. Blizzard went too far with the patch changes, but it's not like everything was fine before then. I'm not sure if just the overlord change would have been enough, or maybe Queen range 4, but this myth that Blizzard broke a perfectly balanced game that's promoted by some is just that, a myth. Either that, or tournament results shouldn't enter these debates. You missed one gsl s1, which had a zerg and toss at the top. Game was not perfectly balanced even then and we could see zerg starting to gain strength, so was toss. The stats you provided are like the TLPD ratings: highly rigged in order to prove something that is in fact not true. Game is more favoring zerg now than it ever used to be terran, even the severely modified ratings could not hide that.Terran win rate vs zerg is about 30%. Such thing never was for zerg, even in the times where the only zerg player that played decently was Nestea. Oh, yeah, missed that. So it's 19 P, 20 T, 8 Z /// 4 T, 1 P, 1 Z. Much better, yay! Rigged to the max. I can also pick tournaments won by zerg only (almost any tournament) and then claim zerg is imba. NASL overall win percentages TvZ: TvZ 43.7% Hence - Zerg imba
I picked tournaments listed as premier tournaments by liquipedia in the patch period before the most recent balance patch. That's not really rigged. Sure, I forgot a tournament a Zerg won, which had 4 P, 3 T and 1 Z in top8. It doesn't change the main point much at all.
I'm also not arguing balance is perfect right now, in case you didn't notice, I do think Zerg is favored in ZvT right now.
I'm just saying things weren't perfect before the queen patch, or even already zerg favored, as some seem to think (why else propose a laundry list of nerfs that go far beyond just reverting the queen change?).
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On July 18 2012 03:40 Nourek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:30 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 03:23 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 03:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 01:54 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 01:38 uzushould wrote:
let the statistics speak for them selfs:
OVERALL SUMMERY:
Zerg: 15
Protoss: 19
Terran: 6
Looks bad, does it? How about what went on before the Queen change when many say everything was fine: Between patch 1.4.3 (Ghost change) and 1.4.3 BU (Queen change): IEM S6 MLG Winter Champ GSL S2 IPL S4 Dreamhack Stockholm Ro8 15 P 17 T 7 Z Winners: 4 T 1 P Sure. Blizzard went too far with the patch changes, but it's not like everything was fine before then. I'm not sure if just the overlord change would have been enough, or maybe Queen range 4, but this myth that Blizzard broke a perfectly balanced game that's promoted by some is just that, a myth. Either that, or tournament results shouldn't enter these debates. You missed one gsl s1, which had a zerg and toss at the top. Game was not perfectly balanced even then and we could see zerg starting to gain strength, so was toss. The stats you provided are like the TLPD ratings: highly rigged in order to prove something that is in fact not true. Game is more favoring zerg now than it ever used to be terran, even the severely modified ratings could not hide that.Terran win rate vs zerg is about 30%. Such thing never was for zerg, even in the times where the only zerg player that played decently was Nestea. Oh, yeah, missed that. So it's 19 P, 20 T, 8 Z /// 4 T, 1 P, 1 Z. Much better, yay! Rigged to the max. I can also pick tournaments won by zerg only (almost any tournament) and then claim zerg is imba. NASL overall win percentages TvZ: TvZ 43.7% Hence - Zerg imba I picked tournaments listed as premier tournaments by liquipedia in the patch period before the most recent balance patch. That's not really rigged. Sure, I forgot a tournament a Zerg won, which had 4 P, 3 T and 1 Z in top8. It doesn't change the main point much at all. I'm also not arguing balance is perfect right now, in case you didn't notice, I do think Zerg is favored in ZvT right now. I'm just saying things weren't perfect before the queen patch, or even already zerg favored, as some seem to think (why else propose a laundry list of nerfs that go far beyond just reverting the queen change?).
The game was definitely Zerg favoured even pre-Queen buff. Just because Zergs were underrepresented and got cheesed out of tournaments doesn't mean they were somehow weak. DRG was still doing just fine and making it to the finals of most major tournaments he attended. Stephano was still crushing face. I'm not sure what you expect, but now we have a situation where even a decent foreign Zerg like Ret can 3-1 a top PvZ player like Puzzle with virtually no deviations in build orders to speak of (yes, Puzzle is top PvZ even though he doesn't win lots of tournies. His micro is fucking insane).
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This crap goes way back to the roach. For months, PvZ has been 2 base all-in or hope you land the vortex. Gimmicks aren't going to work forever. Stephano's roachmax bullshit was just the tip of the iceberg as far as abusing the ridiculous cost effectiveness of the roach vs anything that isn't an immortal.
Making the roach cost 75/50 would go a hell of a long way towards making defense actually cost something. Or some way to stop explosive ling production early game. That's the reason that gate expands suck, you either have to make 3 gateways and fall economically behind, or drop a Nexus and hope you don't get killed outright by one production round of speedlings.
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On July 18 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:40 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 03:30 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 03:23 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 03:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 01:54 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 01:38 uzushould wrote:
let the statistics speak for them selfs:
OVERALL SUMMERY:
Zerg: 15
Protoss: 19
Terran: 6
Looks bad, does it? How about what went on before the Queen change when many say everything was fine: Between patch 1.4.3 (Ghost change) and 1.4.3 BU (Queen change): IEM S6 MLG Winter Champ GSL S2 IPL S4 Dreamhack Stockholm Ro8 15 P 17 T 7 Z Winners: 4 T 1 P Sure. Blizzard went too far with the patch changes, but it's not like everything was fine before then. I'm not sure if just the overlord change would have been enough, or maybe Queen range 4, but this myth that Blizzard broke a perfectly balanced game that's promoted by some is just that, a myth. Either that, or tournament results shouldn't enter these debates. You missed one gsl s1, which had a zerg and toss at the top. Game was not perfectly balanced even then and we could see zerg starting to gain strength, so was toss. The stats you provided are like the TLPD ratings: highly rigged in order to prove something that is in fact not true. Game is more favoring zerg now than it ever used to be terran, even the severely modified ratings could not hide that.Terran win rate vs zerg is about 30%. Such thing never was for zerg, even in the times where the only zerg player that played decently was Nestea. Oh, yeah, missed that. So it's 19 P, 20 T, 8 Z /// 4 T, 1 P, 1 Z. Much better, yay! Rigged to the max. I can also pick tournaments won by zerg only (almost any tournament) and then claim zerg is imba. NASL overall win percentages TvZ: TvZ 43.7% Hence - Zerg imba I picked tournaments listed as premier tournaments by liquipedia in the patch period before the most recent balance patch. That's not really rigged. Sure, I forgot a tournament a Zerg won, which had 4 P, 3 T and 1 Z in top8. It doesn't change the main point much at all. I'm also not arguing balance is perfect right now, in case you didn't notice, I do think Zerg is favored in ZvT right now. I'm just saying things weren't perfect before the queen patch, or even already zerg favored, as some seem to think (why else propose a laundry list of nerfs that go far beyond just reverting the queen change?). The game was definitely Zerg favoured even pre-Queen buff. Just because Zergs were underrepresented and got cheesed out of tournaments doesn't mean they were somehow weak. DRG was still doing just fine and making it to the finals of most major tournaments he attended. Stephano was still crushing face. I'm not sure what you expect, but now we have a situation where even a decent foreign Zerg like Ret can 3-1 a top PvZ player like Puzzle with virtually no deviations in build orders to speak of (yes, Puzzle is top PvZ even though he doesn't win lots of tournies. His micro is fucking insane).
Here is a quote from a guy who summed it up perfectly
Like, the Queen change isn't the problem; it's showing us what the problem is. In a game where both players don't make major mistakes, the Zerg player wins. I'm going to be totally honest: if Zerg were suddenly balanced today, a lot of players on ladder would get demoted. This isn't a bad thing. They'd be demoted because they think Sc2 is about just hitting Injects, spreading Creep, and knowing when to not make Drones. That's not true though. It should ideally be about pressuring and handling pressure, deviating from standard builds in order to gain an advantage, and multitasking to catch your opponent off balance.
I find it hilarious that zergs expect a win if they just stand there for 15 minutes (kinda like a girl), doing nothing but macroing and then a moving. It is up to the terran or toss to attack before zerg macro just destroys everything. It's like the guide for being rich:
If your parents are rich, you have to wait till you are 18 and there you are. Rich. Only thing you have to do in the meantime is avoid being hit by a truck.
If your parents are poor, you have to bust your ass working, working working and eventually you might get rich. Avoiding getting hit by a truck is mandatory since doctors won't even look at you without health insurance.
Not fair. Don't try to convince us otherwise.
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On July 18 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:40 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 03:30 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 03:23 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 03:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 01:54 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 01:38 uzushould wrote:
let the statistics speak for them selfs:
OVERALL SUMMERY:
Zerg: 15
Protoss: 19
Terran: 6
Looks bad, does it? How about what went on before the Queen change when many say everything was fine: Between patch 1.4.3 (Ghost change) and 1.4.3 BU (Queen change): IEM S6 MLG Winter Champ GSL S2 IPL S4 Dreamhack Stockholm Ro8 15 P 17 T 7 Z Winners: 4 T 1 P Sure. Blizzard went too far with the patch changes, but it's not like everything was fine before then. I'm not sure if just the overlord change would have been enough, or maybe Queen range 4, but this myth that Blizzard broke a perfectly balanced game that's promoted by some is just that, a myth. Either that, or tournament results shouldn't enter these debates. You missed one gsl s1, which had a zerg and toss at the top. Game was not perfectly balanced even then and we could see zerg starting to gain strength, so was toss. The stats you provided are like the TLPD ratings: highly rigged in order to prove something that is in fact not true. Game is more favoring zerg now than it ever used to be terran, even the severely modified ratings could not hide that.Terran win rate vs zerg is about 30%. Such thing never was for zerg, even in the times where the only zerg player that played decently was Nestea. Oh, yeah, missed that. So it's 19 P, 20 T, 8 Z /// 4 T, 1 P, 1 Z. Much better, yay! Rigged to the max. I can also pick tournaments won by zerg only (almost any tournament) and then claim zerg is imba. NASL overall win percentages TvZ: TvZ 43.7% Hence - Zerg imba I picked tournaments listed as premier tournaments by liquipedia in the patch period before the most recent balance patch. That's not really rigged. Sure, I forgot a tournament a Zerg won, which had 4 P, 3 T and 1 Z in top8. It doesn't change the main point much at all. I'm also not arguing balance is perfect right now, in case you didn't notice, I do think Zerg is favored in ZvT right now. I'm just saying things weren't perfect before the queen patch, or even already zerg favored, as some seem to think (why else propose a laundry list of nerfs that go far beyond just reverting the queen change?). The game was definitely Zerg favoured even pre-Queen buff. Just because Zergs were underrepresented and got cheesed out of tournaments doesn't mean they were somehow weak. DRG was still doing just fine and making it to the finals of most major tournaments he attended. Stephano was still crushing face. I'm not sure what you expect, but now we have a situation where even a decent foreign Zerg like Ret can 3-1 a top PvZ player like Puzzle with virtually no deviations in build orders to speak of (yes, Puzzle is top PvZ even though he doesn't win lots of tournies. His micro is fucking insane).
wtf
" Just because Zergs were underrepresented and got cheesed out of tournaments doesn't mean they were somehow weak."
Yeah, it kinda does. It at least shows the fragility of zerg economy. The slightest extra pressure to produce units can set us really behind, or the slightest alleviating of pressure can set us really ahead.
Citing a few top end zergs who were doing unusually well for zerg as evidence z is OP is just silly.
Puzzle vs Ret proves nothing, one Bo3 has almost no statistical significance.
Also everyone keeps going on about how protoss can't play a macro game with zerg. Yeah, it's always been like that because the Protoss race design is fucking retarded and seems to have the specific purpose of promoting all-ins. It's been a year (or two?) since SC2 came out. How many pro PvZ went past 2 bases? Maybe like 15-20%?
Don't blame zerg for your ridiculous warp gate mechanic and all the problems it's caused.
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On July 18 2012 01:46 Decendos wrote:
+ 11 T in RO24 in GSL Code A + perhaps even 12.
why do T so much whine? its like 6 weeks (?) after queen patch and T win more and more since that. also in GSTL where zerg won everything in TvZ after patch T won more than Z did in TvZ in the last round. just give it time, it got better and will get even better.
did you even read the thread 2 threads above yours?
Obviosly not, otherwise you wouldn t talk about "things getting better"...... and queen patch is over 2 months now btw., and look at the results from the last tornaments within the last weeks....how long is the "it will get better once terran adapts"-agrument valid?? For the next 10 months? It doesn t even matter what facts we present, people like you will allways be ignorant, even if there would be no single terran left in any tornament or any of the GM leage you ll still come up with your "i dont even understand why T is whining blablabla" just because you got owned by a terra who is 10 times better then you on ladder some minutes ago....
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On July 18 2012 03:56 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On July 18 2012 03:40 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 03:30 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 03:23 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 03:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 01:54 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 01:38 uzushould wrote:
let the statistics speak for them selfs:
OVERALL SUMMERY:
Zerg: 15
Protoss: 19
Terran: 6
Looks bad, does it? How about what went on before the Queen change when many say everything was fine: Between patch 1.4.3 (Ghost change) and 1.4.3 BU (Queen change): IEM S6 MLG Winter Champ GSL S2 IPL S4 Dreamhack Stockholm Ro8 15 P 17 T 7 Z Winners: 4 T 1 P Sure. Blizzard went too far with the patch changes, but it's not like everything was fine before then. I'm not sure if just the overlord change would have been enough, or maybe Queen range 4, but this myth that Blizzard broke a perfectly balanced game that's promoted by some is just that, a myth. Either that, or tournament results shouldn't enter these debates. You missed one gsl s1, which had a zerg and toss at the top. Game was not perfectly balanced even then and we could see zerg starting to gain strength, so was toss. The stats you provided are like the TLPD ratings: highly rigged in order to prove something that is in fact not true. Game is more favoring zerg now than it ever used to be terran, even the severely modified ratings could not hide that.Terran win rate vs zerg is about 30%. Such thing never was for zerg, even in the times where the only zerg player that played decently was Nestea. Oh, yeah, missed that. So it's 19 P, 20 T, 8 Z /// 4 T, 1 P, 1 Z. Much better, yay! Rigged to the max. I can also pick tournaments won by zerg only (almost any tournament) and then claim zerg is imba. NASL overall win percentages TvZ: TvZ 43.7% Hence - Zerg imba I picked tournaments listed as premier tournaments by liquipedia in the patch period before the most recent balance patch. That's not really rigged. Sure, I forgot a tournament a Zerg won, which had 4 P, 3 T and 1 Z in top8. It doesn't change the main point much at all. I'm also not arguing balance is perfect right now, in case you didn't notice, I do think Zerg is favored in ZvT right now. I'm just saying things weren't perfect before the queen patch, or even already zerg favored, as some seem to think (why else propose a laundry list of nerfs that go far beyond just reverting the queen change?). The game was definitely Zerg favoured even pre-Queen buff. Just because Zergs were underrepresented and got cheesed out of tournaments doesn't mean they were somehow weak. DRG was still doing just fine and making it to the finals of most major tournaments he attended. Stephano was still crushing face. I'm not sure what you expect, but now we have a situation where even a decent foreign Zerg like Ret can 3-1 a top PvZ player like Puzzle with virtually no deviations in build orders to speak of (yes, Puzzle is top PvZ even though he doesn't win lots of tournies. His micro is fucking insane). Here is a quote from a guy who summed it up perfectly Show nested quote +
Like, the Queen change isn't the problem; it's showing us what the problem is. In a game where both players don't make major mistakes, the Zerg player wins. I'm going to be totally honest: if Zerg were suddenly balanced today, a lot of players on ladder would get demoted. This isn't a bad thing. They'd be demoted because they think Sc2 is about just hitting Injects, spreading Creep, and knowing when to not make Drones. That's not true though. It should ideally be about pressuring and handling pressure, deviating from standard builds in order to gain an advantage, and multitasking to catch your opponent off balance.
I find it hilarious that zergs expect a win if they just stand there for 15 minutes (kinda like a girl), doing nothing but macroing and then a moving. It is up to the terran or toss to attack before zerg macro just destroys everything. It's like the guide for being rich: If your parents are rich, you have to wait till you are 18 and there you are. Rich. Only thing you have to do in the meantime is avoid being hit by a truck. If your parents are poor, you have to bust your ass working, working working and eventually you might get rich. Avoiding getting hit by a truck is mandatory since doctors won't even look at you without health insurance. Not fair. Don't try to convince us otherwise.
Can't you stick to your point without spreading hate and giving irrelevant example?
If you put it without emotional hate against another side, your point would have been taken more seriously.
Right now, it sounds like hate message and even your side's people wouldn't take it.
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On July 18 2012 03:35 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:34 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Blizzard's take is to say that TvZ is fine. Their original premise for the Queen buff was pro players having problems with the 4 Hellion contain forgodssake. No pro was having any trouble with any 4 hellion contains.
Yup. Yet they still went through with the patch : /
All hail the Queendralisk and pressing sddd I guess?
And surely the new take of Blizzard will be slightly different considering almost all tournaments had terrans falling out left and right and win rate in TvZ is about 30% in pro games (don't look at the fake ratings that were posted on TL). So now zerg is going to be severely nerfed, probably decrease fungal damage with 50% and increase creep recede speed imo.
I wouldn't count on that. They seem pretty clueless on many things judging by the last few patches and their HotS comments and unit designs.
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With only looking at actual games and only looking at performance, there has been a trend of Terrans performing as expected or worse than expected. The exception is GSL Code S ro8, but that seems to be just that.
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One thing I'd like to point out is units. The some units are overpowered and imbalanced. This is what Blizz needs to do in terms of unit balance:
Terran:
Replace Marauder with Firebat
Replace Medivac with Medic and Dropship
Replace Raven with Science Vessel
Take away Snipe and EMP from ghosts and give EMP to science Vessels
Replace Banshees with Wraiths
Replace Vikings with Valkyries
Replace Thors with Goliaths
No Reapers
No MULES or supply drops
No reactors
No Hellions
Supply depots can't burrow
Protoss:
Replace the Immortal and Colossus with Reaver
Replace Warp Prisms with Shuttle
Replace Stalkers with Dragoons
Take away Sentries
Take feedback away from high Templars and give to Dark Archons
HT's can only morph to Archons and DT's can only morph to Dark Archons
Replace Void Rays and Phoenix with Scout, Arbiter and Corsair
Bring back shield battery
Take away mothership
Take away warp gate research
Take away Chronoboost
Replace zealot charge with zealot speed boost
Zerg:
Take away Roach and Banelings
Let Hydralisks morph into Lurkers
Replace Infestors with Defilers
Replace Corruptors with Scourge
Let mutalisks morph into either Guardians or Devourer
Turn the queen into a flying Lair phase unit with the ability to infest burning Command Centers
Repalce Nydus Worm with Nydus Canal
Take awak Overseer
Replace Creep tumors with Creep Colony and they can also turn into either Spore or Sunken colonies
Remove Brood Lords
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On July 18 2012 04:33 s1ege wrote:
One thing I'd like to point out is units. The some units are overpowered and imbalanced. This is what Blizz needs to do in terms of unit balance:
Terran:
Replace Marauder with Firebat
Replace Medivac with Medic and Dropship
Replace Raven with Science Vessel
Take away Snipe and EMP from ghosts and give EMP to science Vessels
Replace Banshees with Wraiths
Replace Vikings with Valkyries
Replace Thors with Goliaths
No Reapers
No MULES or supply drops
No reactors
No Hellions
Supply depots can't burrow
Protoss:
Replace the Immortal and Colossus with Reaver
Replace Warp Prisms with Shuttle
Replace Stalkers with Dragoons
Take away Sentries
Take feedback away from high Templars and give to Dark Archons
HT's can only morph to Archons and DT's can only morph to Dark Archons
Replace Void Rays and Phoenix with Scout, Arbiter and Corsair
Bring back shield battery
Take away mothership
Take away warp gate research
Take away Chronoboost
Replace zealot charge with zealot speed boost
Zerg:
Take away Roach and Banelings
Let Hydralisks morph into Lurkers
Replace Infestors with Defilers
Replace Corruptors with Scourge
Let mutalisks morph into either Guardians or Devourer
Turn the queen into a flying Lair phase unit with the ability to infest burning Command Centers
Repalce Nydus Worm with Nydus Canal
Take awak Overseer
Replace Creep tumors with Creep Colony and they can also turn into either Spore or Sunken colonies
Blizzard:
We won't patch this ever for 13 years. You guys are on your own.
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On July 18 2012 03:57 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:42 Shiori wrote:On July 18 2012 03:40 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 03:30 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 03:23 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 03:12 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 18 2012 01:54 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 01:38 uzushould wrote:
let the statistics speak for them selfs:
OVERALL SUMMERY:
Zerg: 15
Protoss: 19
Terran: 6
Looks bad, does it? How about what went on before the Queen change when many say everything was fine: Between patch 1.4.3 (Ghost change) and 1.4.3 BU (Queen change): IEM S6 MLG Winter Champ GSL S2 IPL S4 Dreamhack Stockholm Ro8 15 P 17 T 7 Z Winners: 4 T 1 P Sure. Blizzard went too far with the patch changes, but it's not like everything was fine before then. I'm not sure if just the overlord change would have been enough, or maybe Queen range 4, but this myth that Blizzard broke a perfectly balanced game that's promoted by some is just that, a myth. Either that, or tournament results shouldn't enter these debates. You missed one gsl s1, which had a zerg and toss at the top. Game was not perfectly balanced even then and we could see zerg starting to gain strength, so was toss. The stats you provided are like the TLPD ratings: highly rigged in order to prove something that is in fact not true. Game is more favoring zerg now than it ever used to be terran, even the severely modified ratings could not hide that.Terran win rate vs zerg is about 30%. Such thing never was for zerg, even in the times where the only zerg player that played decently was Nestea. Oh, yeah, missed that. So it's 19 P, 20 T, 8 Z /// 4 T, 1 P, 1 Z. Much better, yay! Rigged to the max. I can also pick tournaments won by zerg only (almost any tournament) and then claim zerg is imba. NASL overall win percentages TvZ: TvZ 43.7% Hence - Zerg imba I picked tournaments listed as premier tournaments by liquipedia in the patch period before the most recent balance patch. That's not really rigged. Sure, I forgot a tournament a Zerg won, which had 4 P, 3 T and 1 Z in top8. It doesn't change the main point much at all. I'm also not arguing balance is perfect right now, in case you didn't notice, I do think Zerg is favored in ZvT right now. I'm just saying things weren't perfect before the queen patch, or even already zerg favored, as some seem to think (why else propose a laundry list of nerfs that go far beyond just reverting the queen change?). The game was definitely Zerg favoured even pre-Queen buff. Just because Zergs were underrepresented and got cheesed out of tournaments doesn't mean they were somehow weak. DRG was still doing just fine and making it to the finals of most major tournaments he attended. Stephano was still crushing face. I'm not sure what you expect, but now we have a situation where even a decent foreign Zerg like Ret can 3-1 a top PvZ player like Puzzle with virtually no deviations in build orders to speak of (yes, Puzzle is top PvZ even though he doesn't win lots of tournies. His micro is fucking insane). wtf " Just because Zergs were underrepresented and got cheesed out of tournaments doesn't mean they were somehow weak." Yeah, it kinda does. It at least shows the fragility of zerg economy. The slightest extra pressure to produce units can set us really behind, or the slightest alleviating of pressure can set us really ahead. Citing a few top end zergs who were doing unusually well for zerg as evidence z is OP is just silly. Puzzle vs Ret proves nothing, one Bo3 has almost no statistical significance. Also everyone keeps going on about how protoss can't play a macro game with zerg. Yeah, it's always been like that because the Protoss race design is fucking retarded and seems to have the specific purpose of promoting all-ins. It's been a year (or two?) since SC2 came out. How many pro PvZ went past 2 bases? Maybe like 15-20%? Don't blame zerg for your ridiculous warp gate mechanic and all the problems it's caused.
No, it kinda doesn't mean that at all. It means that there are fewer Zergs who understand how to play Zergs than there are P/T players who understand how to play their respective races. I blame the early Beta Zerg players for this mindset of utter passivity and greed. New school Zergs like Stephano/DRG have shown that Zerg has the potential to be aggressive without sacrificing all economy. They win games because of this mindset. Ergo, they weren't doing "unusually well" but instead playing unusually different which gave them immensely better results.
You aren't vulnerable to most pressures if you don't open utterly passively and decide instead to cut Drones at ~60 in favour of making units like Steph/DRG do against Toss. This was a pure metagame evolution that showed how Zerg is meant to be played. Unfortunately, the silly attitude perpetuated by the Beta Zergs (like Idra) led everyone to believe that Zerg was all about just trying to be passive, deflect pressure, and get 80 Drones. That just isn't true anymore and it's the real reason Zergs were losing and underrepresented, not because of imbalance (in the last year; obviously Zerg was underpowered before that).
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Click here to see results since the Queen buff:
Direct comments on the infograph that would sidetrack the thread can be posted here on reddit.
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You aren't vulnerable to most pressures if you don't open utterly passively and decide instead to cut Drones at ~60 in favour of making units like Steph/DRG do against Toss. This was a pure metagame evolution that showed how Zerg is meant to be played. Unfortunately, the silly attitude perpetuated by the Beta Zergs (like Idra) led everyone to believe that Zerg was all about just trying to be passive, deflect pressure, and get 80 Drones. That just isn't true anymore and it's the real reason Zergs were losing and underrepresented, not because of imbalance (in the last year; obviously Zerg was underpowered before that).
Do you even know what you are talking about?
Befor the extreme fast 3rd in PvZ and TvZ, Zerg was 2 Basing and taking the third behind aggression (ling/bling/muta was 2 base vs T, the same with Roach/Hydra) that failed completely as both Toss and Terra learned how to defend with a minimum of units and teching up hard behind. The 2 Base Ling/Bling/Muta Zerg was always behind in upgrades because his 2 base gas income had to be split between Muta count and Blings while terra went for mass marines with a few medivacs and even fewer tanks to snipe banelings.
2 Base Toss just STOMPED 2 Base Zerg left and right, so zerg figured out they need very fast 3rd, but there we had XNC, Shattered and other maps which denied a fast 3rd.
So please... get at least your facts in your biased hatespeech right. No Zerg droned up to 80 without building units. Hard to do that on 2 bases.
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On July 18 2012 01:54 Nourek wrote:
Sure. Blizzard went too far with the patch changes, but it's not like everything was fine before then. I'm not sure if just the overlord change would have been enough, or maybe Queen range 4, but this myth that Blizzard broke a perfectly balanced game that's promoted by some is just that, a myth.
Either that, or tournament results shouldn't enter these debates.
I don't know anyone who thought late game Terran was balanced. The Queen buff just exposed it further by severally reducing the ability to slow early Zerg economy.
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On July 17 2012 19:44 eXdeath wrote:
Don't you think it's all a bit planned by Blizzard?
I mean, Terran being OP at the launch and first months of Wings of Liberty (most new players would pick Terran at this time, it was the campaign, etc.)
Zerg being OP for the launch of HOTS (most new players will play the Zerg campaign and will want to pick Zerg in multiplayer)
I don't think it's a good "excuse", but maybe there is some marketing reason behind this.
I'm pretty convinced this is whats going on. I really think it's that simple.
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On July 18 2012 05:15 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 19:44 eXdeath wrote:
Don't you think it's all a bit planned by Blizzard?
I mean, Terran being OP at the launch and first months of Wings of Liberty (most new players would pick Terran at this time, it was the campaign, etc.)
Zerg being OP for the launch of HOTS (most new players will play the Zerg campaign and will want to pick Zerg in multiplayer)
I don't think it's a good "excuse", but maybe there is some marketing reason behind this.
I'm pretty convinced this is whats going on. I really think it's that simple.
Corporate profit > Super vocal people in this thread.
Blizzard wins!!
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On July 18 2012 04:33 s1ege wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
One thing I'd like to point out is units. The some units are overpowered and imbalanced. This is what Blizz needs to do in terms of unit balance:
Terran:
Replace Marauder with Firebat
Replace Medivac with Medic and Dropship
Replace Raven with Science Vessel
Take away Snipe and EMP from ghosts and give EMP to science Vessels
Replace Banshees with Wraiths
Replace Vikings with Valkyries
Replace Thors with Goliaths
No Reapers
No MULES or supply drops
No reactors
No Hellions
Supply depots can't burrow
Protoss:
Replace the Immortal and Colossus with Reaver
Replace Warp Prisms with Shuttle
Replace Stalkers with Dragoons
Take away Sentries
Take feedback away from high Templars and give to Dark Archons
HT's can only morph to Archons and DT's can only morph to Dark Archons
Replace Void Rays and Phoenix with Scout, Arbiter and Corsair
Bring back shield battery
Take away mothership
Take away warp gate research
Take away Chronoboost
Replace zealot charge with zealot speed boost
Zerg:
Take away Roach and Banelings
Let Hydralisks morph into Lurkers
Replace Infestors with Defilers
Replace Corruptors with Scourge
Let mutalisks morph into either Guardians or Devourer
Turn the queen into a flying Lair phase unit with the ability to infest burning Command Centers
Repalce Nydus Worm with Nydus Canal
Take awak Overseer
Replace Creep tumors with Creep Colony and they can also turn into either Spore or Sunken colonies
Remove Brood Lords
Why spend the time to write all that out when you just could have said, make BW with the SC2 engine...
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On July 18 2012 05:21 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 04:33 s1ege wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
One thing I'd like to point out is units. The some units are overpowered and imbalanced. This is what Blizz needs to do in terms of unit balance:
Terran:
Replace Marauder with Firebat
Replace Medivac with Medic and Dropship
Replace Raven with Science Vessel
Take away Snipe and EMP from ghosts and give EMP to science Vessels
Replace Banshees with Wraiths
Replace Vikings with Valkyries
Replace Thors with Goliaths
No Reapers
No MULES or supply drops
No reactors
No Hellions
Supply depots can't burrow
Protoss:
Replace the Immortal and Colossus with Reaver
Replace Warp Prisms with Shuttle
Replace Stalkers with Dragoons
Take away Sentries
Take feedback away from high Templars and give to Dark Archons
HT's can only morph to Archons and DT's can only morph to Dark Archons
Replace Void Rays and Phoenix with Scout, Arbiter and Corsair
Bring back shield battery
Take away mothership
Take away warp gate research
Take away Chronoboost
Replace zealot charge with zealot speed boost
Zerg:
Take away Roach and Banelings
Let Hydralisks morph into Lurkers
Replace Infestors with Defilers
Replace Corruptors with Scourge
Let mutalisks morph into either Guardians or Devourer
Turn the queen into a flying Lair phase unit with the ability to infest burning Command Centers
Repalce Nydus Worm with Nydus Canal
Take awak Overseer
Replace Creep tumors with Creep Colony and they can also turn into either Spore or Sunken colonies
Remove Brood Lords
Why spend the time to write all that out when you just could have said, make BW with the SC2 engine...
nah he just forgot to say 'change the sc2 engine to the bw engine'
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EPT
