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On August 16 2011 12:35 CatNzHat wrote:
I've recently had a good amount of sucess in TvP, usually due to toss neglecting upgrades, or sucking horrible with templars, it seems to me that if toss starts upgrades even with terran, then they'll always be ahead, if they just stick with mass gateway units, timing attacks with medivacs and 1/1 become a non-issue, and charge gets out before a high enough ghost count to really deny the third. Once you hit the max point, the game is definitely protoss favored, as they can reinforce faster, and their units are more cost effective (1 templar does a shit ton more dmg than 1 marauder for example).
Whilst i still believe that if terran controls perfectly they can win in the late game, I find that it is much less forgiving, and one miss click or imperfect EMP will end the game immediately, whereas protoss has a good bit of wiggle room, where they can eat a huge number of EMPs, and their reinforcements will still be enough to overrun the remaining terran bio.
I disagree. 1 templar and 1 marauder is a completely unfair comparison - a better comparison would be 1 templar compared to 1 ghost. Lately, I've observed Ts going quite Ghost heavy in the lategame, and they easily blanket the Protoss army in EMPs, and I'm not too sure which games you watch, but when the Toss army gets blanketed by EMPs, the army usually gets wiped out. I also feel that the fact that TvP lategame often revolves around EMP vs. Feedback and that Feedback is single-target and EMP is splash makes Protoss lategame micro less forgiving than Terran lategame micro due to the objective fact that splash is more effective than single target.
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I'm personally beginning to think there are large amounts of imbalance in Starcraft 2 than most people would like to admit. I've only skimmed through the thread, so I apologize if this has already been said, but the "comeback race" nature of Terran is slowly beginning to bother me. Does it seem like blatant imbalance to anyone else that a Terran player can spend every single mineral they have, pull every SCV and so long as they have an orbital, they can come back?
I'm not certain yet if it's a valid worry, but I fear for the day when all-ins pulling every SCV is the norm for every Terran MU, relying on MULEs to recover. For example, I look at Idra vs Boxer from the last MLG on Taldarim, where Idra barely holds the first push, right? So he counterattacks and kills relatively large amounts of SCVs. Despite this, Boxer is able to fuel the economy to continue production. I'm not sure that all-ins should be that recoverable.
Also, while I'm talking about balance, I'd like to see SOMETHING new for Protoss. I personally play Zerg, so I'm not sure if it's an innovation problem or an actual balance problem, but I feel like there are less viable actions that a Protoss player can take against me. It's like, Timing push, Colossus or HT. Frankly, none of those are working too well, and I desperately want to see something new. I'm thinking Protoss needs a buff to give them SOMETHING new to try out, even if the buff is removed later.
As for Zerg, well, I'm a Zerg player so it's hard to complain. I'd say I'm relatively happy with where we are right now, but of course I read all the QQ about Infestors, and I want to at least see a PTR set up to see if pushing the infestor back to the 8-second Fungal with no armored bonus would fix things. Otherwise, I dunno, the race just seems relatively well balanced right now.
TL;DR: MULEs probably need tweaking, Protoss probably needs a buff.
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On August 16 2011 12:32 Cofo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 11:37 Disquiet wrote:
I'd like to see infestors fungal growth returned to its projectile state that it had for a short period on the PTR. I feel that excessive and in my view unnecessary zerg whinging made them change it to its current form before the projectile mechanic had a chance to be properly tested at a high level. In its current form I think fungal growth is a little strong, especially against protoss. With a projectile instead of instant cast, Fungal growth would require a lot more micro/skill/prediction to use, while potentially still being just as powerful if landed properly. I think this would make games a lot more exciting and balanced, instead of its current form which is just a very easy to use ability that completely removes the opposing players ability to micro once landed. In addition the projectile speed can always easily be tweaked for balance purposes.
I would LOVE to see FG as a projectile again. I think it offers just a tad too much for being instant. It's not hard to land 2 fungals in a row on a marine ball, instantly killing it. And there's almost nothing terrans can do about it short of constantly perfect EMPs. Same with zealots - assuming the zerg player doesn't totally botch it, zealots become almost completely useless when infestors are on the field. As a projectile, it rewards good zerg players for being able to land it, as well as good other players for being able to dodge it. Rather than taking micro away, it necessitates it. Terran players can spread their marines and protoss players their zealots. Additionally, it makes creates some interesting mindgames when the zerg tries to predict the movement of their opponent and their opponent tries to juke around and move in unpredictable ways. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another change that I would want to see more than this. I think it would help the game immensely, from both a balance and spectator perspective.
Same argument works for FF, though--it "rewards P too much" because they can cut off half the Z's reinforcements, or trap their army, or make it impossible for the Z to attack, and it "doesn't reward Z" because there's nothing they can do about it. At least T can spread their marines...
I'm not arguing that P is OP, just that you need more concrete reasons than "it would reward micro" for nerfing FG. After all, it is a really big nerf to Z, especially in ZvT--and ZvT isn't exactly showing signs of being a Z-favored MU that requires a Z nerf.
That said, as a Z player, I would like this change if an appropriate buff could be made to Z/nerf to Terran that would stop the change from imbalancing the matchup.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2011 12:51 Ihpares wrote:
I'm personally beginning to think there are large amounts of imbalance in Starcraft 2 than most people would like to admit. I've only skimmed through the thread, so I apologize if this has already been said, but the "comeback race" nature of Terran is slowly beginning to bother me. Does it seem like blatant imbalance to anyone else that a Terran player can spend every single mineral they have, pull every SCV and so long as they have an orbital, they can come back?
I'm not certain yet if it's a valid worry, but I fear for the day when all-ins pulling every SCV is the norm for every Terran MU, relying on MULEs to recover. For example, I look at Idra vs Boxer from the last MLG on Taldarim, where Idra barely holds the first push, right? So he counterattacks and kills relatively large amounts of SCVs. Despite this, Boxer is able to fuel the economy to continue production. I'm not sure that all-ins should be that recoverable.
Also, while I'm talking about balance, I'd like to see SOMETHING new for Protoss. I personally play Zerg, so I'm not sure if it's an innovation problem or an actual balance problem, but I feel like there are less viable actions that a Protoss player can take against me. It's like, Timing push, Colossus or HT. Frankly, none of those are working too well, and I desperately want to see something new. I'm thinking Protoss needs a buff to give them SOMETHING new to try out, even if the buff is removed later.
As for Zerg, well, I'm a Zerg player so it's hard to complain. I'd say I'm relatively happy with where we are right now, but of course I read all the QQ about Infestors, and I want to at least see a PTR set up to see if pushing the infestor back to the 8-second Fungal with no armored bonus would fix things. Otherwise, I dunno, the race just seems relatively well balanced right now.
TL;DR: MULEs probably need tweaking, Protoss probably needs a buff.
boxer didnt all in and he killed a lot of drones with bfh also the lings didnt kill that much of scvs. idra also donated all his mutas to marines.
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On August 16 2011 12:57 Miefer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2011 12:51 Ihpares wrote:
I'm personally beginning to think there are large amounts of imbalance in Starcraft 2 than most people would like to admit. I've only skimmed through the thread, so I apologize if this has already been said, but the "comeback race" nature of Terran is slowly beginning to bother me. Does it seem like blatant imbalance to anyone else that a Terran player can spend every single mineral they have, pull every SCV and so long as they have an orbital, they can come back?
I'm not certain yet if it's a valid worry, but I fear for the day when all-ins pulling every SCV is the norm for every Terran MU, relying on MULEs to recover. For example, I look at Idra vs Boxer from the last MLG on Taldarim, where Idra barely holds the first push, right? So he counterattacks and kills relatively large amounts of SCVs. Despite this, Boxer is able to fuel the economy to continue production. I'm not sure that all-ins should be that recoverable.
Also, while I'm talking about balance, I'd like to see SOMETHING new for Protoss. I personally play Zerg, so I'm not sure if it's an innovation problem or an actual balance problem, but I feel like there are less viable actions that a Protoss player can take against me. It's like, Timing push, Colossus or HT. Frankly, none of those are working too well, and I desperately want to see something new. I'm thinking Protoss needs a buff to give them SOMETHING new to try out, even if the buff is removed later.
As for Zerg, well, I'm a Zerg player so it's hard to complain. I'd say I'm relatively happy with where we are right now, but of course I read all the QQ about Infestors, and I want to at least see a PTR set up to see if pushing the infestor back to the 8-second Fungal with no armored bonus would fix things. Otherwise, I dunno, the race just seems relatively well balanced right now.
TL;DR: MULEs probably need tweaking, Protoss probably needs a buff. boxer didnt all in and he killed a lot of drones with bfh also the lings didnt kill that much of scvs. idra also donated all his mutas to marines.
True, it wasn't an all-in per se, and I'm not high enough level to assess exactly how much damage was or was not done. I will admit, I have NOT watched the replays, I'm relying solely on memory. Regardless, he committed heavily to both attacks, and still have enough left over to expand, and was expanding again. I still only play Zerg, so I can only say for certain if a Zerg was attempting a push that large, there'd be nothing left for expansions, tech, or building your economy. I dunno, as a spectator at the very least, it made me feel cheated.
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Just to comment on the ghost vs templar arguement: in the unit tester if you send a HT to feedback a ghost and the ghost to snipe the HT; feedback hits first, snipe wont even go off if the ghost has 100+ energy. So I dont know where these ideas of 9 range come from but either way feedback hits first. And overall HT's are a much more useful unit; you storm and/or feedback and then just make and archon which will absorb alot of damage at the very least.
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Harassment in this game isn't very balanced at all. Considering how important it is as a tactic.
Terran harassment is obviously that most powerful since they have so many options. In BFHellions, Banshees, MMM drops, Reapers, even vikings are all very viable options.
And the only reason I believe people overlook this is because chrono boosting, larva inject and mules in the game. Make recovery some what possible.
But considering the amount of damage that comes off Hellions, Banshees and MMM drops. Right now I question if terran needs the Blue flame upgrade especially so early. Actually for the longest time I have been questioning the tech lab...since having so many early game options makes terran very unpredictable and makes scouting even more important, in a game where scouting overall sucks.
I think terrans should have their tech more spread out, like zerg and protoss. The 1-1-1 build is good example of this. These easy to access tech routes make the early game very unpredictable which produce various amounts of build order losses.
Mid to late game I really believe the problem terran has is that, the thor and vikings aren't really a good substitute for the Goliath. It's cheaper more efficient at complimenting mech and bio builds and easier to mass produce. In comparison the thor and vikings are almost gimmicks.
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On August 16 2011 07:00 Condor Hero wrote:
I feel that this thread will have tons of balance whine despite what you say.
The game should be balanced around the absolute HIGHEST level of play.
That's GM Korea because everyone should aspire to be the best therefore it should be balance around that.
As for EU/NA people having problems, that's just a skill thing.
Nobody would ask for a platinum player's opinions on balance right?
Yep I agree, balance from the top down. But, I dared to mention this "radical idea" on the Bnet forums and got completely crucified cause I am a plat player. Yet, I didnt give any suggestions of balance of any kind.
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I see people complaining about 1-1-1 a lot, but they fail to forget Protoss has it's own semi/all-ins that are pretty powerful. 3 Gate+Stargate, 3 Gate Blink, for instance. These builds can be just as devastating against any Terran player. They don't even necessarily have to kill the Terran, just do enough damage to the point that the Protoss can expand and get further ahead in tech.
Point being, each race has their own powerful builds that can do to much damage against the right opening.
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Zergs say scan is imba, but mules are so essential for our economy, and scanning is a risk because i dont know where your tech'll be, your natural, your main, your third, etc. Zergs have a mobile scout, it costs only 100/100 once to get speed on them, and if you get overseers, 2.75 speed with the upgrade, pretty fast. Scans are not mobile, and terran doesnt have something as fast as a ling that can scout. If you keep all of your tech in the same base that's your fault, its not op that terran scan and see it.
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On August 16 2011 13:13 SniXSniPe wrote:
I see people complaining about 1-1-1 a lot, but they fail to forget Protoss has it's own semi/all-ins that are pretty powerful. 3 Gate+Stargate, 3 Gate Blink, for instance. These builds can be just as devastating against any Terran player. They don't even necessarily have to kill the Terran, just do enough damage to the point that the Protoss can expand and get further ahead in tech.
Point being, each race has their own powerful builds that can do to much damage against the right opening.
Yeah, thing is those builds would absolutely demolish someone trying to go 1-1-1.
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The interesting thing about balance discussion in a game as complex as SC2 is there's always, always a counter-argument. It reminds me of theological discussions; there's never an end and no way to define anything because every single perspective brought to the table is inherently and unavoidably biased because it's based on the arguer's own unique experiences.
For that reason I think the only appreciable purpose for this thread is to herd up the junk and put a fence around it. Hopefully it works for that.
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On August 16 2011 13:24 mrKamiya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 13:13 SniXSniPe wrote:
I see people complaining about 1-1-1 a lot, but they fail to forget Protoss has it's own semi/all-ins that are pretty powerful. 3 Gate+Stargate, 3 Gate Blink, for instance. These builds can be just as devastating against any Terran player. They don't even necessarily have to kill the Terran, just do enough damage to the point that the Protoss can expand and get further ahead in tech.
Point being, each race has their own powerful builds that can do to much damage against the right opening.
Yeah, thing is those builds would absolutely demolish someone trying to go 1-1-1.
Nope, if you go 1-1-1 you have a ton of marines, and early tanks.
Thats good against blink stalkers.
Against Void-Rays you're teching up to Starport, so you'll get a viking out.
You can't break a 1-1-1 if the terran doesn't completely mess up. That's the problem, you can't punish a terran for teching that fast.
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On August 16 2011 13:13 SniXSniPe wrote:
I see people complaining about 1-1-1 a lot, but they fail to forget Protoss has it's own semi/all-ins that are pretty powerful. 3 Gate+Stargate, 3 Gate Blink, for instance. These builds can be just as devastating against any Terran player. They don't even necessarily have to kill the Terran, just do enough damage to the point that the Protoss can expand and get further ahead in tech.
Point being, each race has their own powerful builds that can do to much damage against the right opening.
I think the main difference is that if a terran scouts 3 gate blink or 3 gate stargate all they have to do is build the correct units out of the buildings they already have to easily counter it. If a protoss scouts 1-1-1 all in.. there's no clear cut way to stomp on them.
My problem with PvT is that it doesn't seem like terran has any BAD situational builds against protoss. If they go ghosts early it will ALWAYS do a ton of damage to the toss army no matter what the toss goes. If they go hellions early they will almost always kill enough probes to be worth it. If I as toss go 3 gate star against mass marines I will just die. Just seems like terran has so many more options to use while protoss is only SAFE going robo tech.
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On August 16 2011 13:13 SniXSniPe wrote:
I see people complaining about 1-1-1 a lot, but they fail to forget Protoss has it's own semi/all-ins that are pretty powerful. 3 Gate+Stargate, 3 Gate Blink, for instance. These builds can be just as devastating against any Terran player. They don't even necessarily have to kill the Terran, just do enough damage to the point that the Protoss can expand and get further ahead in tech.
Point being, each race has their own powerful builds that can do to much damage against the right opening.
People do indeed fail to forget that.
The toss builds are counterable. None of them has a 90%++ win rate in pro games even when the P knows what's coming minutes ahead of time.
That said, I don't think it needs a patch - yet.
+ Show Spoiler +Someone... JYP maybe? I can't remember. One of the code A tosses held a pretty reasonable 111 by preemptively harassing with phoenixes this season. I don't think that's an answer, yet, but it demonstrates that there's still things to explore. And HotS will change everything up.
But I don't think you can possibly argue that toss has an all-in of comparable power or success rate. The 1-1-1 is head and shoulders above any other build until it gets figured out.
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On August 16 2011 13:13 SniXSniPe wrote:
I see people complaining about 1-1-1 a lot, but they fail to forget Protoss has it's own semi/all-ins that are pretty powerful. 3 Gate+Stargate, 3 Gate Blink, for instance. These builds can be just as devastating against any Terran player. They don't even necessarily have to kill the Terran, just do enough damage to the point that the Protoss can expand and get further ahead in tech.
Point being, each race has their own powerful builds that can do to much damage against the right opening.
I honestly feel that this is an oversimplification, though. Ask yourself, and answer honestly: When was the last time you saw 3gate Void ray work to the extent that the 1-1-1 all-in has at the top level? The 1-1-1 all-in has had a 90-ish% success rate since the Up/Downs of the last GSL. 3Gate Stargate? 3Gate Blink? 4Gate? Other timing attacks? I haven't seen them used to even a fraction of the effectiveness of the 1-1-1 all-in.
Also, the other problem is that doing a fast expansion is widely agreed upon to be the best way to counter the 1-1-1 all-in, and that's what we've been seeing Protoss players do, yet still lose extremely often. You say that "each race has their own powerful builds that can do too much damage against the right opening", yet Protoss players are doing the exact opening that is supposed to best counter the 1-1-1 all-in, yet are mostly still losing.
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On August 16 2011 13:09 KingAce wrote:
Harassment in this game isn't very balanced at all. Considering how important it is as a tactic.
Terran harassment is obviously that most powerful since they have so many options. In BFHellions, Banshees, MMM drops, Reapers, even vikings are all very viable options.
And the only reason I believe people overlook this is because chrono boosting, larva inject and mules in the game. Make recovery some what possible.
But considering the amount of damage that comes off Hellions, Banshees and MMM drops. Right now I question if terran needs the Blue flame upgrade especially so early. Actually for the longest time I have been questioning the tech lab...since having so many early game options makes terran very unpredictable and makes scouting even more important, in a game where scouting overall sucks.
I think terrans should have their tech more spread out, like zerg and protoss. The 1-1-1 build is good example of this. These easy to access tech routes make the early game very unpredictable which produce various amounts of build order losses.
Mid to late game I really believe the problem terran has is that, the thor and vikings aren't really a good substitute for the Goliath. It's cheaper more efficient at complimenting mech and bio builds and easier to mass produce. In comparison the thor and vikings are almost gimmicks.
Options doesn't mean all of them are very good, any harass can be very good if you haven't scouted good enough, and don't react correctly/at all. Reaper harass earlygame is easily cleaned up by early roaches, or queens, or just spines. Vikings can only be effective if you let them. A ling runby can also be just as devastating as a terran drop if a terran's army is in the middle of the map, so can a drop. Reapers are very fragile, if you go fast blue flame hellions a roach push can easily kill you or contain you for a while. I could do a queen drop and do damage if you let me or didnt react fast enough.
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On August 16 2011 13:26 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 13:24 mrKamiya wrote:On August 16 2011 13:13 SniXSniPe wrote:
I see people complaining about 1-1-1 a lot, but they fail to forget Protoss has it's own semi/all-ins that are pretty powerful. 3 Gate+Stargate, 3 Gate Blink, for instance. These builds can be just as devastating against any Terran player. They don't even necessarily have to kill the Terran, just do enough damage to the point that the Protoss can expand and get further ahead in tech.
Point being, each race has their own powerful builds that can do to much damage against the right opening.
Yeah, thing is those builds would absolutely demolish someone trying to go 1-1-1. Nope, if you go 1-1-1 you have a ton of marines, and early tanks. Thats good against blink stalkers. Against Void-Rays you're teching up to Starport, so you'll get a viking out. You can't break a 1-1-1 if the terran doesn't completely mess up. That's the problem, you can't punish a terran for teching that fast.
You will not get your starport up fast enough, 1 barracks producing marines will not beat a 3 gate voidray. Even with some tanks and bunkers, since the protoss is on 2 gas they can stop producing void rays, make sentries to not allow repairing on the bunkers, and just kill the terran. 1 viking may respond to the void ray well, but that's the only thing it'll be good against.
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On August 16 2011 13:27 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 13:13 SniXSniPe wrote:
I see people complaining about 1-1-1 a lot, but they fail to forget Protoss has it's own semi/all-ins that are pretty powerful. 3 Gate+Stargate, 3 Gate Blink, for instance. These builds can be just as devastating against any Terran player. They don't even necessarily have to kill the Terran, just do enough damage to the point that the Protoss can expand and get further ahead in tech.
Point being, each race has their own powerful builds that can do to much damage against the right opening.
People do indeed fail to forget that. The toss builds are counterable. None of them has a 90%++ win rate in pro games even when the P knows what's coming minutes ahead of time. That said, I don't think it needs a patch - yet. + Show Spoiler +Someone... JYP maybe? I can't remember. One of the code A tosses held a pretty reasonable 111 by preemptively harassing with phoenixes this season. I don't think that's an answer, yet, but it demonstrates that there's still things to explore. And HotS will change everything up. But I don't think you can possibly argue that toss has an all-in of comparable power or success rate. The 1-1-1 is head and shoulders above any other build until it gets figured out.
Something that people should realize is that the 1-1-1 all-in has been around for a very long time. Rain used it to knock out Genius in GSL Open Season 3. It's not like it's some new shiny all-in that no one's figured out yet - I argue that Toss players have had tons of time to figure it out (well over half a year) and still have no definite answer yet.
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EPT
