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On August 16 2011 08:25 Novalisk wrote:
What do you guys think about Orbital Command? I've seen multiple pros openly state that "Mules are OP", even Terrans. Is it because:
1. Mules give too much for their cost?
2. Scans cover too much range?
3. Orbital Command has too much energy?
4. Low tier(mineral heavy) Terran units are too strong?
5. People aren't forcing enough scans in the current metagame?
6. People aren't forcing enough Planetary Fortresses in the current metagame?
7. Is the Terran mineral line too hard to breach?
8. Is the OC upgrade too cheap?
9. None of the above?
I always thought that the OC was ridiculous. Most of the ez-mode complaints from far more significant posts than this one are centered on it (scans, supply drop, and MULEs are all Terran talents unmatched by zerg and toss). Put a cooldown on all of them and drop the max energy (to 150, probably).
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On August 16 2011 11:40 AdrianHealey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 11:37 Divergence wrote:
But how extreme is it? It would have almost no effect on lategame. The upgrade should be done well before mutas come out.
The only difference it would make to Terran rushes would be that Zerg would safely be able to overlord scout Terran early. If that is enough to break the balance then it actually shows that something is HORRIBLY wrong with TvZ. That is, if by merely being able to scout effectively Zerg become favored it shows that TvZ is much of a guessing game, which regardless of balance makes for a bad game.
Although, I can see one flaw is that if Zerg scouts lucky they pretty much have a maphack on Terran until Terran completes the research.
Welcome to Z V Z. :D Anyway; it would be the zerg equivalent of terran scan (try to deny a scan) or protoss hallucination, which is, after the not so cheap but not so expensive upgrade, basically only energy on a sentry. On the other hand; terran can have a viking scout as well (which does cost gas/money), but can scout pretty good as well, at least until muta's.
I don't think the zerg scouting is an issue at all. Infact I think they have the best scouting of all 3 races. They are the only one who can see over walls before the midgame (ofcourse terran can scan, but you would know if you play terran you don't want to waste your first 1 or 2 mules on a scan as it is quite a hit to your economy, and theres no guarantee you will even see anything). Lings, overlords and creep tumors give zerg unrivaled give map vision and control and Flying an OL in will almost always get atleast as much vision as a scan, even if it dies really quickly, for a smaller price. By the time the other races get observers/halluc or can afford to use lots of scans zerg can get overlord speed, overseers or mutalisks granting them pretty much full information that way.
The biggest difference is not scouting abilities, as I believe zerg actually has it the best, its dependence on information and susceptibility to cheese. Terran and protoss are stronger defensively that zerg, so scouting in the first 3-4 minutes is really not as critical, it still helps ofcourse, but they are less likely to lose the game because they couldn't scout. They also do not need to make decisions about economy or army based on their information, as they have a maximum rate of worker production and in most cases they will being going at max no matter what their opponent does.
Zerg on the otherhand is very susceptible to cheese, and NEEDS information to react properly, or they run the risk of just dying. Hence all the complaining about zergs crappy scouting. When its not actually the case, the other races (especially protoss) have worse scouting earlygame, it just doesn't affect them very much. A zerg with perfect information would be very difficult to beat, as they have the advantage of being more flexible, and would defend any all-in or enter the midgame with an economic advantage everytime. That is why nestea is so hard to beat, not because he has unmatched micro or mechanics(ofcourse hes top tier at these too but its not like hes in a another league). He is so strong because he is just so good at reading his opponent and making the right decisions, and zerg heavily rewards such play.
I think its just a weakness of the race, the same way terrans immobility is a weakness, and I think people should learn to adapt rather than whining for it to be patched out. The only time I see it being a problem is on very close spawns, but tournaments eliminate those anyway so I think its a moot point.
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On August 16 2011 11:45 Stropheum wrote:
I want to know why every protoss that complains about the infestor, in my over 100 recent ladder games, not one has gone archons or high templar. It's either been some sort of all in, or they go colossus or void ray centric play, all of which play right into fungal growth, infested terrans and neural parasite.
What makes protoss players think that high templars are 0% viable vs infestors?
From a zerg standpoint, seeing templar tech means i have to add roaches, thus shrinking my infestor count by about 20-25%, and feedbacks mitigate the ability to fungal, and any infestor that had enough energy to cast NP will die to a single feedback, not to mention feedbacking a fresh upgraded infestor brings it to near death anyway, allowing one well placed storm to take out almost every infestor that fell victim to a good feedback.
I'm still going HTs/archons vs's infestors but I am now seeing why every single KR Protoss immediately go Collosi when seeing Infestor tech. Since Zerg can just get a lot of lings in in ZvP they're dumping all their gas into Infestors so their getting ALOT of them. Meaning if we actually want to feedback infestors we have to spend a lot of gas into HTs and start getting a lot of zealots which become very crap against Roaches with speed, especially when fungal'd they become useless supply. Archon also get mind controlled a lot and rape zealots. A lot more to say about HT style but I gave you a general idea why I don't think it's good.
I only use the style on maps where I can actually multi prong attack since Zergs don't really know how to split up infestors (No offense)
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On August 16 2011 11:54 Plansix wrote:
1: One of my major design issues in detection. I have no idea why fungle growth and EMP both reveal cloaked units, but psystorm doesn't. It just seems weird that protoss have only 2 forms of detection and the other races simply have more.
2: My other issue is on the same line with Protoss scouting. Protoss's inability to take control of the map, specifically vs zerg(and other protoss, if you think about it) I think promotes the all in styles we see from a lot of the korean players. Protoss have difficult getting reliable information early in the game without dumping a lot of gas(min is 175 and you get a building that may make units you want). The fact that protoss is forced to spend gas to scout, rather than scan or sack an overlord, is one of the weakest parts of the race. I think zerg also has a similar problem vs terran(on one base).
3: Immortals. They need some love. They cost a ton(1 immortal + 1 sentry = 1 colossi) and have no staying power into the end game. Also they are slow and do not work well with stalkers. Stalkers are so quick, they constantly block immortals from firing. Even if you are microing, its a consent battle if the fight isn't a straight up slug fest. Considering that everything in SC 2 is so mobile, I would like to see the immortal get some loving. We all want less colossi, right?
So in short, I would like ways to get more reliable information on my opponent.
1)Observers are amazing detectors. Not only are they the cheapest form of detection, but their the fastest in movement and production. Their invisible to boot.
2) I don't think that will ever happen unless TvP some how became Mech orientated. GW units, your mobile units, lose to pure Marauders or pure Roach. Toss in its Match ups relies on high tier Splash to win. As long as thats the case Toss will never take map control.
3) Immortals are really good. Against Mech. So good that people don't Mech in TvP. I would agree to a range boost if and only if the H. Shield were removed. If not Mass Immortal would be to good. Immortals were made to fill a nitch. Destroy Mech.
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On August 16 2011 12:04 Miefer wrote:
i think its pretty sensless to have an upgrade to shoot up. it would make too big of an impact on other matchups than the tvz. what do you do if you get banshee rushed or even voidrays early on? you have then to prioritize this upgrade over stim, which is crucial in tvp. also how long should it take? if too long you are too vulnurable against air if too short it doesnt ake sense anymore. also i dont think that early scouting is that hard for zerg. the first 3 min you can scout with the drone if terran goes 2 rax or 1 rax gas. if one rax gas you can check the front if he ads reactor on rax,so you can guess it is a hellion opening. as zerg you can steal gas with only 25 minerals, so you can take away the option of early banshee. i mean terran has the same scouting option as zerg, which terran use a scan instead of a mule in the first 6-7 minutes?
Try standing behind the wall and guessing which (fucktarded early game) all in is coming.  It is true that you can do some estimated guesses based on what you see. However; because of terran versatile possibilities, it's still just guessing. It's like not knowing if a early ling/bling bust comes, only it's not a ling/bling bust, but a whole set of different timing attacks. :p The drone basically becomes useless after the first marine comes in (you either become an extractor or die, if the terran is smart and has the extractor already started). However, between that point in time and the first harass attacks terran can do, there is a timing window where zerg can do no scouting what so ever (overlord's get picked off, unless he goes for only 2 marines and pure mech.)
All in all; I'm not thinking anything above 30 seconds for the upgrade.
The problem of early cloack banshee vs protoss - which can basically be a bo loss - is another interesting issue that can be addressed. I'm not in the position to comment on that one, though.
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On August 16 2011 11:57 AdrianHealey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 11:53 Wren wrote:
Spines are only tight if they are perfectly square to each other. Any diagonal is an opening.
edit: As for the idea of nerfing marines to buff scouting, just put overlord speed at hatchery tech. I don't think that's true. I think that even if you put 2 spines perfectly square, a hellion still can get through? Can someone confirm this?
It's not cited, but liquipedia is rarely wrong!
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Spine_crawler#Walling
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On August 16 2011 12:08 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 08:25 Novalisk wrote:
What do you guys think about Orbital Command? I've seen multiple pros openly state that "Mules are OP", even Terrans. Is it because:
1. Mules give too much for their cost?
2. Scans cover too much range?
3. Orbital Command has too much energy?
4. Low tier(mineral heavy) Terran units are too strong?
5. People aren't forcing enough scans in the current metagame?
6. People aren't forcing enough Planetary Fortresses in the current metagame?
7. Is the Terran mineral line too hard to breach?
8. Is the OC upgrade too cheap?
9. None of the above? I always thought that the OC was ridiculous. Most of the ez-mode complaints from far more significant posts than this one are centered on it (scans, supply drop, and MULEs are all Terran talents unmatched by zerg and toss). Put a cooldown on all of them and drop the max energy (to 150, probably).
But why? Mules are needed to keep up with Chrono probes and Spawn Larva Drones. In every match up Terran is last to expand.
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On August 16 2011 11:51 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 11:45 Stropheum wrote:
I want to know why every protoss that complains about the infestor, in my over 100 recent ladder games, not one has gone archons or high templar. It's either been some sort of all in, or they go colossus or void ray centric play, all of which play right into fungal growth, infested terrans and neural parasite.
What makes protoss players think that high templars are 0% viable vs infestors?
From a zerg standpoint, seeing templar tech means i have to add roaches, thus shrinking my infestor count by about 20-25%, and feedbacks mitigate the ability to fungal, and any infestor that had enough energy to cast NP will die to a single feedback, not to mention feedbacking a fresh upgraded infestor brings it to near death anyway, allowing one well placed storm to take out almost every infestor that fell victim to a good feedback. You have to decide before 3 bases between colossus oder ht based play. Colossus is just overall more safe, it grants you observer scouting, immortal against roach based plays, and colossus against hydra / ling based play. Templar aren't THAT great against infestor based play, against roach / infestor you lack damage output. Roaches with tunneling claws outheal storms, you won't have detection for them, and infestors will deny Blink. If he manages to feedback your infestors, you still don't have enough against the roaches. Ht against infestor start to really shine when you have 6-8 gas, and can get a good amount of archons, stalkers and hts. But that's ridiculously much gas. If you want to deny infestors with ht, you deny yourself mostly storms or other tech / units, because every protoss units needs ridiculous amount of gas, and zealots are terrible in ZvP. Colossus is just more safe, and stable. It doesn't really have a HUGE setback. And it has a basic damage, continues damage output. Also your mobility is better without sluggish Hts. (On top of that, hts get slower mana than infestors thanks to no KA, so if you exchange blows, your hts have to wait 45s or something before every next engagement, while infestors are ready to go)
I will echo the sentiment that collosus feels like a safer tech choice as they are decent, supported by stalker/sentry, against mass roach, roach/hydra, roach/infestor, and ling/bling. However, I sometimes use templar. If it weren't for roaches, I would use templar more often.
The difficulty for me lies, firstly, in scouting. An infestation pit does not mean a commitment to mass infestor. Seeing one also might mean a quick tech to hive. With such ambiguity, I am not likely to commit to templar tech unless I see A LOT of infestors. By then, it is often too late. I hate getting fooled into templar only to have to deal with mass roach and finding myself with no gas for collosus and sentries.
Secondly, templar speed makes them difficult to micro. This is partially a simple deficiency in skill on my part. However, the investment in templar is significant (high up the tech tree), and once they are on the field, they are fragile. If I am short on sentry, my templar routinely get sniped by roaches or lings when I am targetting the infestors. In other words, I have sighted an infestor, pressed the Feedback hotkey, and clicked on the infestor, only to have my templar sniped as it tries to move into range. This lack of durability makes them a HIGH RISK GAS INVESTMENT. Collosus is high risk too, but it is a bit more flexible in countering more zerg units.
tl;dr Templar are a risky investment for me because they are not as effective against roaches as other toss units, and because of the difficult micro involved. The pros I watch streaming often storm first, then feedback. This, in my experience, is the most effective way to micro templar against infestors as the initial storms will often force the zerg to back off. Again, I am still struggling to get down this micro. I am not claiming any imbalance here, but the difficulty of clearing out lings and roaches with FF or storm in order to open up a path for templar to feedback makes the whole situation tenuous. Pumping gas into collosus production is less risky.
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On August 16 2011 12:12 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 11:45 Stropheum wrote:
I want to know why every protoss that complains about the infestor, in my over 100 recent ladder games, not one has gone archons or high templar. It's either been some sort of all in, or they go colossus or void ray centric play, all of which play right into fungal growth, infested terrans and neural parasite.
What makes protoss players think that high templars are 0% viable vs infestors?
From a zerg standpoint, seeing templar tech means i have to add roaches, thus shrinking my infestor count by about 20-25%, and feedbacks mitigate the ability to fungal, and any infestor that had enough energy to cast NP will die to a single feedback, not to mention feedbacking a fresh upgraded infestor brings it to near death anyway, allowing one well placed storm to take out almost every infestor that fell victim to a good feedback. I'm still going HTs/archons vs's infestors but I am now seeing why every single KR Protoss immediately go Collosi when seeing Infestor tech. Since Zerg can just get a lot of lings in in ZvP they're dumping all their gas into Infestors so their getting ALOT of them. Meaning if we actually want to feedback infestors we have to spend a lot of gas into HTs and start getting a lot of zealots which become very crap against Roaches with speed, especially when fungal'd they become useless supply. Archon also get mind controlled a lot and rape zealots. A lot more to say about HT style but I gave you a general idea why I don't think it's good. I only use the style on maps where I can actually multi prong attack since Zergs don't really know how to split up infestors (No offense)
Great point about the mineral dump into zealots when going templar tech versus zerg. This makes a roach switch soooo unforgiving.
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On August 16 2011 12:14 AdrianHealey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 12:04 Miefer wrote:
i think its pretty sensless to have an upgrade to shoot up. it would make too big of an impact on other matchups than the tvz. what do you do if you get banshee rushed or even voidrays early on? you have then to prioritize this upgrade over stim, which is crucial in tvp. also how long should it take? if too long you are too vulnurable against air if too short it doesnt ake sense anymore. also i dont think that early scouting is that hard for zerg. the first 3 min you can scout with the drone if terran goes 2 rax or 1 rax gas. if one rax gas you can check the front if he ads reactor on rax,so you can guess it is a hellion opening. as zerg you can steal gas with only 25 minerals, so you can take away the option of early banshee. i mean terran has the same scouting option as zerg, which terran use a scan instead of a mule in the first 6-7 minutes? Try standing behind the wall and guessing which (fucktarded early game) all in is coming. It is true that you can do some estimated guesses based on what you see. However; because of terran versatile possibilities, it's still just guessing. It's like not knowing if a early ling/bling bust comes, only it's not a ling/bling bust, but a whole set of different timing attacks. :p The drone basically becomes useless after the first marine comes in (you either become an extractor or die, if the terran is smart and has the extractor already started). However, between that point in time and the first harass attacks terran can do, there is a timing window where zerg can do no scouting what so ever (overlord's get picked off, unless he goes for only 2 marines and pure mech.) All in all; I'm not thinking anything above 30 seconds for the upgrade. The problem of early cloack banshee vs protoss - which can basically be a bo loss - is another interesting issue that can be addressed. I'm not in the position to comment on that one, though.
its pretty easy to think what all in he is doing if you play some terran yourself. if he wants to 7 rax all in you you see 2 rax no gas, you can check the gas on the edge of terran base with your overlord without flying into marines. if he ads reactor on rax early he will go hellion and follow up with mech. if he wants to open pretty tech heavy he has 2 gas early on. you can deny that with gas steal. also if it takes 30 seonds to research, it will be pretty senseless. if a terran wants to allin you he will build techlabs early on and can easily deny your overlord because in the first 5 min all terran build orders looks the same.
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On August 16 2011 12:10 Disquiet wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2011 11:40 AdrianHealey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 11:37 Divergence wrote:
But how extreme is it? It would have almost no effect on lategame. The upgrade should be done well before mutas come out.
The only difference it would make to Terran rushes would be that Zerg would safely be able to overlord scout Terran early. If that is enough to break the balance then it actually shows that something is HORRIBLY wrong with TvZ. That is, if by merely being able to scout effectively Zerg become favored it shows that TvZ is much of a guessing game, which regardless of balance makes for a bad game.
Although, I can see one flaw is that if Zerg scouts lucky they pretty much have a maphack on Terran until Terran completes the research.
Welcome to Z V Z. :D Anyway; it would be the zerg equivalent of terran scan (try to deny a scan) or protoss hallucination, which is, after the not so cheap but not so expensive upgrade, basically only energy on a sentry. On the other hand; terran can have a viking scout as well (which does cost gas/money), but can scout pretty good as well, at least until muta's. I don't think the zerg scouting is an issue at all. Infact I think they have the best scouting of all 3 races. They are the only one who can see over walls before the midgame (ofcourse terran can scan, but you would know if you play terran you don't want to waste your first 1 or 2 mules on a scan as it is quite a hit to your economy, and theres no guarantee you will even see anything). Lings, overlords and creep tumors give zerg unrivaled give map vision and control and Flying an OL in will almost always get atleast as much vision as a scan, even if it dies really quickly, for a smaller price. By the time the other races get observers/halluc or can afford to use lots of scans zerg can get overlord speed, overseers or mutalisks granting them pretty much full information that way. The biggest difference is not scouting abilities, as I believe zerg actually has it the best, its dependence on information and susceptibility to cheese. Terran and protoss are stronger defensively that zerg, so scouting in the first 3-4 minutes is really not as critical, it still helps ofcourse, but they are less likely to lose the game because they couldn't scout. They also do not need to make decisions about economy or army based on their information, as they have a maximum rate of worker production and in most cases they will being going at max no matter what their opponent does. Zerg on the otherhand is very susceptible to cheese, and NEEDS information to react properly, or they run the risk of just dying. Hence all the complaining about zergs crappy scouting. When its not actually the case, the other races (especially protoss) have worse scouting earlygame, it just doesn't affect them very much. A zerg with perfect information would be very difficult to beat, as they have the advantage of being more flexible, and would defend any all-in or enter the midgame with an economic advantage everytime. That is why nestea is so hard to beat, not because he has unmatched micro or mechanics(ofcourse hes top tier at these too but its not like hes in a another league). He is so strong because he is just so good at reading his opponent and making the right decisions, and zerg heavily rewards such play. I think its just a weakness of the race, the same way terrans immobility is a weakness, and I think people should learn to adapt rather than whining for it to be patched out. The only time I see it being a problem is on very close spawns, but tournaments eliminate those anyway so I think its a moot point.
What you are saying is: zerg has pretty awesome scouting after the early game, however, if they don't scout/read the early game properly, they might insta die. (Especially against terran.)
Oke, thank you, that's what we are saying.
On the other hand; it does seem that the lack of scouting options aren't really that big of a problem on the high level, as far as I can tell. So maybe it doesn't need 'fixing'.
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On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels.
Actually, no, just no.
EMP is a fast projectile while Storm is instant, that means if both players are equal in skill level, the toss will storm before EMP goes off. Well you could argue what if they pull the Ghost forward before the battle and EMP? Then pull the HT back/spread before the battle
If you watch high level games, you usually see EMPs before feedback, Storms before EMP (unless toss player moves their HT forward bunched up), occassionally snipe before feedback/storm
I honestly like the current HT v Ghost match up right now
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On August 16 2011 12:15 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 12:08 Wren wrote:On August 16 2011 08:25 Novalisk wrote:
What do you guys think about Orbital Command? I've seen multiple pros openly state that "Mules are OP", even Terrans. Is it because:
1. Mules give too much for their cost?
2. Scans cover too much range?
3. Orbital Command has too much energy?
4. Low tier(mineral heavy) Terran units are too strong?
5. People aren't forcing enough scans in the current metagame?
6. People aren't forcing enough Planetary Fortresses in the current metagame?
7. Is the Terran mineral line too hard to breach?
8. Is the OC upgrade too cheap?
9. None of the above? I always thought that the OC was ridiculous. Most of the ez-mode complaints from far more significant posts than this one are centered on it (scans, supply drop, and MULEs are all Terran talents unmatched by zerg and toss). Put a cooldown on all of them and drop the max energy (to 150, probably). But why? Mules are needed to keep up with Chrono probes and Spawn Larva Drones. In every match up Terran is last to expand.
Uh, a one rax expand is up quite a bit faster than one gate expand. The difference is whether or not you build on the high ground or down at the natural, and a lot more people seem to be building in the natural now.
On August 16 2011 12:23 ooni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels. Actually, no, just no. EMP is a fast projectile while Storm is instant, that means if both players are equal in skill level, the toss will storm before EMP goes off. Well you could argue what if they pull the Ghost forward before the battle and EMP? Then pull the HT back/spread before the battle If you watch high level games, you usually see EMPs before feedback, Storms before EMP (unless toss player moves their HT forward bunched up), occassionally snipe before feedback/storm I honestly like the current HT v Ghost match up right now
EMP is instant. High templar are also extremely slow, you don't "pull them back." You typically bring them forward before the battle for the feedback/emp+snipe battle or to try and get a storm in. Then they either die or you bring more of your army forward to shield them. Not saying it's an unfair battle because it isn't, just nitpicking a bit.
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I like that we finally have this thread. I want to start off by saying that in the stats threads that pop up, people often blindly complain about sample size. The common sentiment in the starcraft 2 community is that balance should revolve around the highest level of play. Tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars are often at stake, and it's simply more important that the game is fun and fair to the people who do it for their profession than for the masses of silver players complaining about 4 gates.
When stats come out that examine every high level tournament over several months and chronicle thousands of games with thousands of different players on a variety of maps, that's more than sufficient to draw conclusions on the balance at the highest levels of play. Just a fraction of a percent of the starcraft 2 population is being considered doesn't mean it's an "insufficient sample size". You're only trying to draw conclusions about the highest levels of play, not the starcraft 2 population. Fractionally speaking, games from the highest level tournaments can easily represent mid masters and beyond, and that's where the community decided that balance is the most crucial.
That being said, 45%/55% split isn't a huge deal, but when it goes more like 60/40 or worse, there's a clear problem.
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On August 16 2011 12:23 ooni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels. Actually, no, just no. EMP is a fast projectile while Storm is instant, that means if both players are equal in skill level, the toss will storm before EMP goes off. Well you could argue what if they pull the Ghost forward before the battle and EMP? Then pull the HT back/spread before the battle If you watch high level games, you usually see EMPs before feedback, Storms before EMP (unless toss player moves their HT forward bunched up), occassionally snipe before feedback/storm I honestly like the current HT v Ghost match up right now
this and the battle is really dynamic. if you saw the game on eg mcsl between hasuobs and major you can see that it is pretty balanced. it is no so that both army sitting next to each other and just send their spellcasters to the front. the protoss dont put their hts in the front.whenever he sees the ghost incoming he pulls back t let him emp in the empty or snipes him with stalkers. hasuobs even casted some defensive storms. the two armies are dancing around each other trying to get an advantage and its pretty exciting to watch. asloboth have the same chance to win the fight.
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On August 16 2011 11:37 Disquiet wrote:
I'd like to see infestors fungal growth returned to its projectile state that it had for a short period on the PTR. I feel that excessive and in my view unnecessary zerg whinging made them change it to its current form before the projectile mechanic had a chance to be properly tested at a high level. In its current form I think fungal growth is a little strong, especially against protoss. With a projectile instead of instant cast, Fungal growth would require a lot more micro/skill/prediction to use, while potentially still being just as powerful if landed properly. I think this would make games a lot more exciting and balanced, instead of its current form which is just a very easy to use ability that completely removes the opposing players ability to micro once landed. In addition the projectile speed can always easily be tweaked for balance purposes.
I would LOVE to see FG as a projectile again. I think it offers just a tad too much for being instant. It's not hard to land 2 fungals in a row on a marine ball, instantly killing it. And there's almost nothing terrans can do about it short of constantly perfect EMPs. Same with zealots - assuming the zerg player doesn't totally botch it, zealots become almost completely useless when infestors are on the field.
As a projectile, it rewards good zerg players for being able to land it, as well as good other players for being able to dodge it. Rather than taking micro away, it necessitates it. Terran players can spread their marines and protoss players their zealots. Additionally, it makes creates some interesting mindgames when the zerg tries to predict the movement of their opponent and their opponent tries to juke around and move in unpredictable ways.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of another change that I would want to see more than this. I think it would help the game immensely, from both a balance and spectator perspective.
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I agree with the OP's post on TvP at master level. It's entirely up to Terran to have the 400 ~ APM to hit all the perfect EMP's and snipes , and if they don't they kind of just get stream rolled by Protoss. I really think that some sort of skill cap unit for Protoss needs to be added ( like the Reaver ), and other things nerfed ( like the Colossus and Templar or Archon ).
As far as 1-1-1 goes this build has been around for ages and I am not convinced its a problem. I think a lot of Protoss players just play greedy since bio is much less effective than it used to be, and at the timing 1-1-1 hits its far more potent than bio timing attacks.
Right now Protoss is holding me back because I just can't beat them at same skill level or even my own being higher
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I've recently had a good amount of sucess in TvP, usually due to toss neglecting upgrades, or sucking horrible with templars, it seems to me that if toss starts upgrades even with terran, then they'll always be ahead, if they just stick with mass gateway units, timing attacks with medivacs and 1/1 become a non-issue, and charge gets out before a high enough ghost count to really deny the third. Once you hit the max point, the game is definitely protoss favored, as they can reinforce faster, and their units are more cost effective (1 templar does a shit ton more dmg than 1 marauder for example).
Whilst i still believe that if terran controls perfectly they can win in the late game, I find that it is much less forgiving, and one miss click or imperfect EMP will end the game immediately, whereas protoss has a good bit of wiggle room, where they can eat a huge number of EMPs, and their reinforcements will still be enough to overrun the remaining terran bio.
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I'd like to add that if a Ghost and a HT move toward each other and EMP/Feedback as soon as possible, it appears that the HT's feedback goes off as the Ghost's EMP is flying through the air, so they both get hit. My main gripe with this is that if your HTs are at all near each other, this results in 1 Ghost getting feedbacked (for pretty much no damage because the feedback hits after the EMP has already launched, unless the Ghost has well over 75 energy already) while multiple units stand to get hit by the EMP - it's not an even trade given even execution. Obviously, different races, different mechanics, etc., but the fact that it's so easy for units to naturally clump up makes it rather frustrating as a Protoss player when you're doing Feedback vs. EMP, because, at best, you can't prevent EMPs at all - you can just get a Feedback off on the Ghost doing the EMP (for usually little damage since the Ghost lost 75 energy from doing the EMP), while the EMP flies through the air and stands to hit multiple units.
Has anyone else tested EMP vs. Feedback at optimal execution for both and gotten different results?
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On August 16 2011 12:15 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 12:08 Wren wrote:On August 16 2011 08:25 Novalisk wrote:
What do you guys think about Orbital Command? I've seen multiple pros openly state that "Mules are OP", even Terrans. Is it because:
1. Mules give too much for their cost?
2. Scans cover too much range?
3. Orbital Command has too much energy?
4. Low tier(mineral heavy) Terran units are too strong?
5. People aren't forcing enough scans in the current metagame?
6. People aren't forcing enough Planetary Fortresses in the current metagame?
7. Is the Terran mineral line too hard to breach?
8. Is the OC upgrade too cheap?
9. None of the above? I always thought that the OC was ridiculous. Most of the ez-mode complaints from far more significant posts than this one are centered on it (scans, supply drop, and MULEs are all Terran talents unmatched by zerg and toss). Put a cooldown on all of them and drop the max energy (to 150, probably). But why? Mules are needed to keep up with Chrono probes and Spawn Larva Drones. In every match up Terran is last to expand.
I'll take that to mean that you agree about supply drop and scans then. :p
Terran often has two CCs before Protoss has two Nexuses, and is always welcome to utilize any of their fast expands (15 CC is pretty damn quick, and has been shown viable; 1rax expand even more prevalent and safe).
SCVs cost the same, and are built in the same amount of time, and mine just as quickly. The Terran building mechanism certainly uses up mining time, but so does zerg's...
It'd be a lot more balanced to allow for a faster production of SCVs, rather than some super-miner. Give the CC a cheap reactor.
The marine's effectiveness, especially against other early units allows the Terran economy to start slow anyway.
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EPT
