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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 10

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Benzzro
Profile Joined August 2011
Australia167 Posts
August 16 2011 02:28 GMT
#181
Remove the energy upgrade from ghosts/Infestors, lower the radius for EMP (Pretty ridiculous spell just due to how many small chokes there are on the every map, so hard to spread as Protoss). Actually 1 of the reason why TA is the best map for Protoss because we can actually spread.

For Zerg I don't really know, I really think Hydras need a buff but I truly think Zerg would be way to OP if they did this, just due to a lot of things like Hydra/Nydus against any SG play will be pretty much impossible to hold meaning SG will never really be used. I also think Fungal should slow rather then hold, and let Blink stalkers still blink, but instead also reduce attack speed slightly.

I've also been seeing some discussion about Protoss being favored against Terran if you take away the 1-1-1, tbh I don't even think 1-1-1 was the cause of the massive winrate percentage going in Terrans favor, rather Terrans figured out you can go a lot more marines with upgrades against HT style play, since marines own gateway units and rely on EMP since it's quite easy to EMP HTs, it's why we've been seeing so many Protoss players favor the old Collosi style of play again.

This is why I think EMP needs a change, I don't know how, it just seems a bit stupid to me that Protoss is always the one that needs to make something happen micro wise in PvT, like sending HTs in individually to feedback ghosts, spreading units, sniping ghosts with blink, etc...While Terran literally can keep everything in 1 hotkey, might sound like a rant but it isn't, I hope a little rework or something can occur so it makes it a fun micro battle for both races.

AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
August 16 2011 02:30 GMT
#182
On August 16 2011 11:26 Divergence wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 16 2011 11:16 AdrianHealey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 11:08 Divergence wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 16 2011 09:48 AdrianHealey wrote:
...

One of the problems, I feel, is the problem that T can do some fucktarded strong early game all ins. (For example; the famous 3 rax before orbital, wall of at the bottom.) I think I have a very original buff to counter this early game all ins: make the fact that terrans can shoot up an upgrade.

It doesn't even have to cost gas/minerals (it can basically be 'free'), only take time. (For all I care it can be researched from reactor/barrack itself.) What would this solve? It would solve the problem that Z has in scouting T. If the t goes for some really fast stim all in (or something similar) he wouldn't have time to research the marine shooting up and the scout would come through.

On the other hand; in tvp; the terran would be kind of forced to research it (void rays, anyone?). if they go for some really fast all in, they might die to a void ray rush.

What this, effectively, does is slowing down terran timing pushes _if_ they want to (1) not be scouted (vs zerg) and (2) not bo-loose (vs p). Obviously; I'm not saying that this is bullet proof. And I do realize it is a nerf. (How big the nerf is, would depend on how long it would take for this to research and where it is availble. If it was a 10 second research thingy, it wouldn't be a big nerf.)

I'm relatively confident that delaying the possibility for terran to do an unscouted all inish attack (vs zerg) or creating the possibility to insta loose against void ray (and thus slowing the first push) would solve some early game problems.

...

(Emphasis my own.) I am assuming you refer specifically to marines right?

Nice post and I really like that idea (I play T and P). I'm not a Sc2 expert so I can't really comment on how viable that change actually is, but at a first glance it seems quite intriguing and could fix a lot of problems. It is somewhat of a "weird" idea (marines are too bad to shoot up lol, they need to learn it), but it's silly to think the game should strictly follow the "lore" (Hellions not costing gas comes to mind). I really like it as a solution to Z's early game scouting problems. I firmly believe SC2 should not be a guessing game.

I'm interested to hear what others think of AdrianHealey's proposed change? Could it work?


Thanks for the support. (I'll add that I'm pretty sure that all balance suggestions are pretty much a priori useless, because Blizzard will just do it's own way, which I don't think is necessarily bad. A lot of balance changes were unexpected, but not necessarily bad, like phoenix and observer buff or fungal change/buff.)

Yes, I was talking about marine. (Marauder can never shoot up. :p)


Yeah I know what you mean. Somewhere out there some nerd has probably thought of THE balance change that would revolutionize the game, but it will never be heard and it will never be tested.

It would be cool if it were possible to make some community effort at balancing the game. By using the map editor we create a map with community suggested balance changes and let the community test them out. I haven't seen any mention of this happening before. Unfortunately, it would be hard to draw reasonable conclusions from such an experiment without doing a lot of work, and without progamers testing it out we would also have to be skeptical of our conclusions. Although, if we're very careful (ie, approach it like scientists) we don't necessarily need progamer support. Somehow Blizzard gets by without them (as far as I know).


I've read/seen interviews where Blizzard says they are in contact with pro gamer regarding balance issues?

I've been thinking about the community map balance possibilities as well. However; it's probably a lot of work and I suck at the map editor.
I love.
kodas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States418 Posts
August 16 2011 02:31 GMT
#183
On August 16 2011 11:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 11:18 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 16 2011 11:08 Divergence wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 09:48 AdrianHealey wrote:
...

One of the problems, I feel, is the problem that T can do some fucktarded strong early game all ins. (For example; the famous 3 rax before orbital, wall of at the bottom.) I think I have a very original buff to counter this early game all ins: make the fact that terrans can shoot up an upgrade.

It doesn't even have to cost gas/minerals (it can basically be 'free'), only take time. (For all I care it can be researched from reactor/barrack itself.) What would this solve? It would solve the problem that Z has in scouting T. If the t goes for some really fast stim all in (or something similar) he wouldn't have time to research the marine shooting up and the scout would come through.

On the other hand; in tvp; the terran would be kind of forced to research it (void rays, anyone?). if they go for some really fast all in, they might die to a void ray rush.

What this, effectively, does is slowing down terran timing pushes _if_ they want to (1) not be scouted (vs zerg) and (2) not bo-loose (vs p). Obviously; I'm not saying that this is bullet proof. And I do realize it is a nerf. (How big the nerf is, would depend on how long it would take for this to research and where it is availble. If it was a 10 second research thingy, it wouldn't be a big nerf.)

I'm relatively confident that delaying the possibility for terran to do an unscouted all inish attack (vs zerg) or creating the possibility to insta loose against void ray (and thus slowing the first push) would solve some early game problems.

...

(Emphasis my own.) I am assuming you refer specifically to marines right?

Nice post and I really like that idea (I play T and P). I'm not a Sc2 expert so I can't really comment on how viable that change actually is, but at a first glance it seems quite intriguing and could fix a lot of problems. It is somewhat of a "weird" idea (marines are too bad to shoot up lol, they need to learn it), but it's silly to think the game should strictly follow the "lore" (Hellions not costing gas comes to mind). I really like it as a solution to Z's early game scouting problems. I firmly believe SC2 should not be a guessing game.

I'm interested to hear what others think of AdrianHealey's proposed change? Could it work?


Oh my god, brilliant idea. I never thought of that actually. That is the most original and BEST idea I have heard yet. Truly brilliant.


I'm flattered.

A quite extreme measure for Terran only having a 55% winrate in TvZ. I think the idea would have to be tested for a loooong period of time before that Blizzard would even think about it putting it in the game.
Get paper, fuck bitches, smoke trees, mass thors.
Divergence
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada363 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 02:38:19
August 16 2011 02:37 GMT
#184
On August 16 2011 11:31 kodas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 11:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
On August 16 2011 11:18 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 16 2011 11:08 Divergence wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 09:48 AdrianHealey wrote:
...

One of the problems, I feel, is the problem that T can do some fucktarded strong early game all ins. (For example; the famous 3 rax before orbital, wall of at the bottom.) I think I have a very original buff to counter this early game all ins: make the fact that terrans can shoot up an upgrade.

It doesn't even have to cost gas/minerals (it can basically be 'free'), only take time. (For all I care it can be researched from reactor/barrack itself.) What would this solve? It would solve the problem that Z has in scouting T. If the t goes for some really fast stim all in (or something similar) he wouldn't have time to research the marine shooting up and the scout would come through.

On the other hand; in tvp; the terran would be kind of forced to research it (void rays, anyone?). if they go for some really fast all in, they might die to a void ray rush.

What this, effectively, does is slowing down terran timing pushes _if_ they want to (1) not be scouted (vs zerg) and (2) not bo-loose (vs p). Obviously; I'm not saying that this is bullet proof. And I do realize it is a nerf. (How big the nerf is, would depend on how long it would take for this to research and where it is availble. If it was a 10 second research thingy, it wouldn't be a big nerf.)

I'm relatively confident that delaying the possibility for terran to do an unscouted all inish attack (vs zerg) or creating the possibility to insta loose against void ray (and thus slowing the first push) would solve some early game problems.

...

(Emphasis my own.) I am assuming you refer specifically to marines right?

Nice post and I really like that idea (I play T and P). I'm not a Sc2 expert so I can't really comment on how viable that change actually is, but at a first glance it seems quite intriguing and could fix a lot of problems. It is somewhat of a "weird" idea (marines are too bad to shoot up lol, they need to learn it), but it's silly to think the game should strictly follow the "lore" (Hellions not costing gas comes to mind). I really like it as a solution to Z's early game scouting problems. I firmly believe SC2 should not be a guessing game.

I'm interested to hear what others think of AdrianHealey's proposed change? Could it work?


Oh my god, brilliant idea. I never thought of that actually. That is the most original and BEST idea I have heard yet. Truly brilliant.


I'm flattered.

A quite extreme measure for Terran only having a 55% winrate in TvZ. I think the idea would have to be tested for a loooong period of time before that Blizzard would even think about it putting it in the game.


But how extreme is it? It would have almost no effect on lategame. The upgrade should be done well before mutas come out.

The only difference it would make to Terran rushes would be that Zerg would safely be able to overlord scout Terran early. If that is enough to break the balance then it actually shows that something is HORRIBLY wrong with TvZ. That is, if by merely being able to scout effectively Zerg becomes favored, it shows that TvZ is much of a guessing game, which regardless of balance makes for a bad game.

Although, I can see one flaw is that if Zerg scouts lucky they pretty much have a maphack on Terran until Terran completes the research.
AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
August 16 2011 02:37 GMT
#185
On August 16 2011 11:31 kodas wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 16 2011 11:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 11:18 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 16 2011 11:08 Divergence wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 09:48 AdrianHealey wrote:
...

One of the problems, I feel, is the problem that T can do some fucktarded strong early game all ins. (For example; the famous 3 rax before orbital, wall of at the bottom.) I think I have a very original buff to counter this early game all ins: make the fact that terrans can shoot up an upgrade.

It doesn't even have to cost gas/minerals (it can basically be 'free'), only take time. (For all I care it can be researched from reactor/barrack itself.) What would this solve? It would solve the problem that Z has in scouting T. If the t goes for some really fast stim all in (or something similar) he wouldn't have time to research the marine shooting up and the scout would come through.

On the other hand; in tvp; the terran would be kind of forced to research it (void rays, anyone?). if they go for some really fast all in, they might die to a void ray rush.

What this, effectively, does is slowing down terran timing pushes _if_ they want to (1) not be scouted (vs zerg) and (2) not bo-loose (vs p). Obviously; I'm not saying that this is bullet proof. And I do realize it is a nerf. (How big the nerf is, would depend on how long it would take for this to research and where it is availble. If it was a 10 second research thingy, it wouldn't be a big nerf.)

I'm relatively confident that delaying the possibility for terran to do an unscouted all inish attack (vs zerg) or creating the possibility to insta loose against void ray (and thus slowing the first push) would solve some early game problems.

...

(Emphasis my own.) I am assuming you refer specifically to marines right?

Nice post and I really like that idea (I play T and P). I'm not a Sc2 expert so I can't really comment on how viable that change actually is, but at a first glance it seems quite intriguing and could fix a lot of problems. It is somewhat of a "weird" idea (marines are too bad to shoot up lol, they need to learn it), but it's silly to think the game should strictly follow the "lore" (Hellions not costing gas comes to mind). I really like it as a solution to Z's early game scouting problems. I firmly believe SC2 should not be a guessing game.

I'm interested to hear what others think of AdrianHealey's proposed change? Could it work?


Oh my god, brilliant idea. I never thought of that actually. That is the most original and BEST idea I have heard yet. Truly brilliant.


I'm flattered.

A quite extreme measure for Terran only having a 55% winrate in TvZ. I think the idea would have to be tested for a loooong period of time before that Blizzard would even think about it putting it in the game.


Well; how big is the win rate of t v z if we just take games into account that end before the 10th minute mark? That's the problem that it would solve (if you think there is a problem to begin with, which I do. And yes, I'm a zerg and biased.) The late game is z v t favored (imo, and I think this is pretty non controversial) and probably needs some fixing (in favour of terran) as well. However; I have no cool/new idea to change that, unfortunately.

I'm not sure why you consider it to be so extreme, though; it would depend on the time, cost and requirements. If you make it 120 seconds, 100/100 and requirement: armory it would be a whole different ball game than 10 sec/50/0 barracks requirement.

Looking at win rates as such is a very bad idea in balance discussions, imo. Because a match up can be balanced (or almost balanced) 'accross the entire game' but it would be better if early, mid and late game are all balanced and not that the imbalance of the early game compensates for the imbalance late game.
I love.
Disquiet
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia628 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 02:39:23
August 16 2011 02:37 GMT
#186
I like to think I'm impartial here, since I play all 3 races, but I definitely lean towards terran as its my "main" race.

Any way here are my personal views on balance:
TVP: pretty even at my level, but with good micro for avoiding storms/kiting colossi and chargelots perfectly and the 1/1/1 I think its Terran favored at high levels
TvZ: Relatively even right now, small variations with metagame shifts but overall pretty well balanced.
ZvP: Zerg favoured, very heavily on an open map with few chokes

Potential Changes that in my view will help the game:

1.)I'd like to see infestors fungal growth returned to its projectile state that it had for a short period on the PTR. I feel that excessive and in my view unnecessary zerg whinging made them change it to its current form before the projectile mechanic had a chance to be properly tested at a high level. In its current form I think fungal growth is a little strong, especially against protoss. With a projectile instead of instant cast, Fungal growth would require a lot more micro/skill/prediction to use, while potentially still being just as powerful if landed properly. I think this would make games a lot more exciting and balanced, instead of its current form which is just a very easy to use ability that completely removes the opposing players ability to micro once landed. In addition the projectile speed can always easily be tweaked for balance purposes.


2.) I'd like to see immortals buffed, probably a range increase to 6 or maybe a production time/cost buff. Right now they are just not very useful outside of the midgame because they tend to get stuck in the back and unable to fire as armies get large because of their poor range. I also feel an immortal buff would greatly assist protoss in defending the 1/1/1 which seems like a pretty big issue right now.

Even though I mainly play terran, I think the race is mostly fine at the moment, I'd like to see marauder buff, but that could only come after an immortal buff for protoss or it would ruin the PVT matchup. My reasoning for this buff is not really balance related, so don't count it as a real comment on the current state of balance. I want it simply because I think it would improve the TvT matchup as right now the viability of the bio army is rapidly diminishing. A small buff to bio I think would create a truly awesome tvt metagame where mech, air and bio are all viable.
AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
August 16 2011 02:40 GMT
#187
On August 16 2011 11:37 Divergence wrote:
But how extreme is it? It would have almost no effect on lategame. The upgrade should be done well before mutas come out.

The only difference it would make to Terran rushes would be that Zerg would safely be able to overlord scout Terran early. If that is enough to break the balance then it actually shows that something is HORRIBLY wrong with TvZ. That is, if by merely being able to scout effectively Zerg become favored it shows that TvZ is much of a guessing game, which regardless of balance makes for a bad game.

Although, I can see one flaw is that if Zerg scouts lucky they pretty much have a maphack on Terran until Terran completes the research.


Welcome to Z V Z. :D

Anyway; it would be the zerg equivalent of terran scan (try to deny a scan) or protoss hallucination, which is, after the not so cheap but not so expensive upgrade, basically only energy on a sentry. On the other hand; terran can have a viking scout as well (which does cost gas/money), but can scout pretty good as well, at least until muta's.

I love.
Stropheum
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1124 Posts
August 16 2011 02:45 GMT
#188
I want to know why every protoss that complains about the infestor, in my over 100 recent ladder games, not one has gone archons or high templar. It's either been some sort of all in, or they go colossus or void ray centric play, all of which play right into fungal growth, infested terrans and neural parasite.

What makes protoss players think that high templars are 0% viable vs infestors?

From a zerg standpoint, seeing templar tech means i have to add roaches, thus shrinking my infestor count by about 20-25%, and feedbacks mitigate the ability to fungal, and any infestor that had enough energy to cast NP will die to a single feedback, not to mention feedbacking a fresh upgraded infestor brings it to near death anyway, allowing one well placed storm to take out almost every infestor that fell victim to a good feedback.
kodas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States418 Posts
August 16 2011 02:45 GMT
#189
On August 16 2011 11:40 AdrianHealey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 11:37 Divergence wrote:
But how extreme is it? It would have almost no effect on lategame. The upgrade should be done well before mutas come out.

The only difference it would make to Terran rushes would be that Zerg would safely be able to overlord scout Terran early. If that is enough to break the balance then it actually shows that something is HORRIBLY wrong with TvZ. That is, if by merely being able to scout effectively Zerg become favored it shows that TvZ is much of a guessing game, which regardless of balance makes for a bad game.

Although, I can see one flaw is that if Zerg scouts lucky they pretty much have a maphack on Terran until Terran completes the research.


Welcome to Z V Z. :D

Anyway; it would be the zerg equivalent of terran scan (try to deny a scan) or protoss hallucination, which is, after the not so cheap but not so expensive upgrade, basically only energy on a sentry. On the other hand; terran can have a viking scout as well (which does cost gas/money), but can scout pretty good as well, at least until muta's.


A scan doesn't always hit the right target, in fact you can hide your tech pretty well, ala the ovie lair drop creep, would you be in the favor of overlords losing that ablity so that Terran can have the "perfect information" that you seem to think a scan gives..
Get paper, fuck bitches, smoke trees, mass thors.
Elefanto
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland3584 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 02:53:19
August 16 2011 02:51 GMT
#190
On August 16 2011 11:45 Stropheum wrote:
I want to know why every protoss that complains about the infestor, in my over 100 recent ladder games, not one has gone archons or high templar. It's either been some sort of all in, or they go colossus or void ray centric play, all of which play right into fungal growth, infested terrans and neural parasite.

What makes protoss players think that high templars are 0% viable vs infestors?

From a zerg standpoint, seeing templar tech means i have to add roaches, thus shrinking my infestor count by about 20-25%, and feedbacks mitigate the ability to fungal, and any infestor that had enough energy to cast NP will die to a single feedback, not to mention feedbacking a fresh upgraded infestor brings it to near death anyway, allowing one well placed storm to take out almost every infestor that fell victim to a good feedback.


You have to decide before 3 bases between colossus oder ht based play.
Colossus is just overall more safe, it grants you observer scouting, immortal against roach based plays, and colossus against hydra / ling based play.

Templar aren't THAT great against infestor based play, against roach / infestor you lack damage output.
Roaches with tunneling claws outheal storms, you won't have detection for them, and infestors will deny Blink. If he manages to feedback your infestors, you still don't have enough against the roaches.

Ht against infestor start to really shine when you have 6-8 gas, and can get a good amount of archons, stalkers and hts. But that's ridiculously much gas.
If you want to deny infestors with ht, you deny yourself mostly storms or other tech / units, because every protoss units needs ridiculous amount of gas, and zealots are terrible in ZvP.

Colossus is just more safe, and stable. It doesn't really have a HUGE setback.
And it has a basic damage, continues damage output. Also your mobility is better without sluggish Hts.

(On top of that, hts get slower mana than infestors thanks to no KA, so if you exchange blows, your hts have to wait 45s or something before every next engagement, while infestors are ready to go)
wat
AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 02:55:44
August 16 2011 02:51 GMT
#191
On August 16 2011 11:45 kodas wrote:A scan doesn't always hit the right target, in fact you can hide your tech pretty well, ala the ovie lair drop creep, would you be in the favor of overlords losing that ablity so that Terran can have the "perfect information" that you seem to think a scan gives..


There is a reason why zerg (on any level) don't hide tech with ovie lair drop creep technique. It's called 'drops'. (No, really, try to play as zerg and try to hide tech for 5 games and see how much succes you have with it.) And it really doesn't provide all that use. We go either muta or infestor first (it's the one or the other) and terrans build turrets for both (detection/attacking the muta). And boths are countered (soft/hard) by marines. So it doesn't really matter all that much, in my experience.

I know that scans don't provide perfect information all the time. However, neither does this buff for zerg. It's only a buff (in z v t) for zerg for early game scouting. Nothing else. And the early game scouting, well, that's really fucktarded important and is (in my experience) really a guessing game.

Again; I'm not saying that we only need to buff zerg. (I have suggested nerfs for zerg as well.) But this early game scouting... it's really a bitch.

But that's not even important; an overlord, even with the marine not be able to shoot up (in the beginning of the game) is not exactly a scan either. Overlords are still pretty slow and the upgrade wouldn't exactly be 'late game' (au contraire, it might well be the very first upgrade you take, unless you for a really fast attack/harass).

I would change the overlord creep ability for scan any day of the week, though. Scanning would be awesome for zerg.
I love.
Wren
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States745 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 02:55:07
August 16 2011 02:53 GMT
#192
On August 16 2011 07:45 fighter2_40 wrote:
I just played a game against my friend in a custom today vs his blue flame hellions.

I put up spine crawlers at my ramp to wall off but as it turns out... hellions can fit through spines.

In my opinion, this is a problem that can be fixed easily by just making spines take up more space. It makes defending mass hellion much easier as right now zerg needs to make spines and evo chambers in front to actually wall off.

Cannons and bunkers are hellion tight... why aren't spines.

Spines are only tight if they are perfectly square to each other. Any diagonal is an opening.

edit: As for the idea of nerfing marines to buff scouting, just put overlord speed at hatchery tech.
We're here! We're queer! We don't want any more bears!
Mr. Enchilada
Profile Joined November 2010
United States274 Posts
August 16 2011 02:53 GMT
#193
On August 16 2011 11:07 Kiaro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
I literally just posted this on the Blizzard forums a minute ago:


I want to talk about StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty. However before I do, I think it prudent to give a bit of history about my relationship with the StarCraft dynasty.

I started playing StarCraft 1 about a month after its release in 1998. I wasn't particularly attracted to it right off the bat, and, as a result, I played it casually - excited exclusively by 3v3s, 4v4s and money-maps. However the introduction of BroodWar really sparked my interest in 1v1, and I began playing seriously in early 1999 as a Random player. I used to scrim with players like box, Rekrule, ScoliosisVictem, AngryLlama, as well as play the aberrant pick-up game found in X17, motel, cake, op aafrog, etc.

I embarked upon the ladder system in the year 2000, and worked my way up and down with little long-term success. However, as the months passed, and my ladder ranking remained stagnate, I found both Terran macro and Terran micro increasingly difficult - especially using "Mech" versus Protoss - and decided I was not good enough to compete as a Random player. I soon settled on Zerg, which is the race I played until 2004-2005 when my excitement for BroodWar began to wane. The reason I bring this up is because I want to make it clear that I played all three races in a competitive 1v1 setting, and I can say objectively that Terran was, without a doubt, the most demanding, and the least forgiving. Knowing the extreme difficulty of Terran made players like Boxer or Flash seem that much more amazing, and, as a result, kept my attention on the professional BroodWar scene for years to come.


The release of StarCraft 2 was an exciting day for me. I had been waiting nearly a decade and was anxious to find out what new and amazing units the geniuses at Blizzard had invented. After the install and a few hours messing around in multiplayer, I have to admit that I was the tiniest bit disappointed that so many units were recycled from BroodWar. Granted they had somewhat different roles to fill, but the ideas were the same, and, therefore bland. I was however very happy with the macro changes; thing like the raising and lowering of Supply Depots, the warp-in mechanic, the Creep-spread mechanic, hot-keying 255 units into a single group, multiple building selection, etc. Things just seemed easier. I rationalized this conflict by saying "well, I guess this is just a refined version of BroodWar" and eventually convinced myself that I was happy with my long-awaited purchase.

I jumped face first into ladder playing as Random. Initially I found my competition very soft, and was promoted into Diamond League within a few days. While in Diamond I continued to play Random until the announcement that a new league, called Master League, would be created for the top 2% of players on each server. About three weeks before Master League was implemented, I figured it was time to pick. While I loved the macro ease of Terran (one of my biggest problems with BroodWar Terran), and the warp-mechanic of Protoss, the Baneling and Creep Tumor were what solidified my choice as Zerg. I was promoted into Master League on the first day of its creation and ended Season 1 with 3400 points, and Season 2 with 1500 points.


As of today I have over 4000 league games played - roughly 500 as Terran, 500 as Protoss and 3000 as Zerg. I have come to some conclusions in that time that I want to share. There are a lot of things in this game that just "don't feel right". Of course I could list cost versus efficacy for each unit, or limitations that certain races have that others don't, but that would take many, many pages.

One simple example of this inadequacy is the Roach. The Roach just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the Zerg arsenal. Even the name "Roach" isn't Zerg-worthy. Zerg has all kinds of -lisks and -lings, but then there is this unit that is named after something that scuttles under the refrigerator when I flip the light switch in my kitchen. I understand Blizzard wanted Hydralisks to fill a very specific role, and as a result left Zerg with a gap in utility, but it seems like the Roach was a last-second addition that was purely for equalizing Zerg's offensive capabilities in the early-game. And because Zerg has such weak supplementary units, the Roach (just like the recently-buffed Infestor) has replaced the need for other units. It, just as the Infestor, has become a "do-all" unit, and arguably the core of a Zerg army. After all, you could technically go Roach/Infestor in every match-up and be reasonably safe against most compositions.

Another great example of this is the Colossus. This is something I like to call a "vanity" unit. That is, its role is not as important as its "coolness" effect. I imagine the Blizzard design team sitting around the brain-storming-table in 2009 thinking about a "AMFG LAZER BEAMS" unit to replace the Reaver and, thus, appeal to the new player base. So what we have now is a BroodWar Reaver that has had all of its micro-intensive requirements removed, but balanced out by a reduction in killing efficiency. A properly microed Reaver in BroodWar was a horrifying unit to fight; a properly microed Colossus in StarCraft 2 is only a mild threat, for which players usually have premade tech structures for producing counters (Terran already has a Reactor'd Starport in Terran versus Protoss, and Zerg usually has a Spire in Zerg versus Protoss, so to counter the Colossus a Terran presses "V" instead of "D", and a Zerg presses "C" instead of "T"). A Reaver in BroodWar was slow-moving, very fragile and required a constant cycling of Scarabs. It was a hard unit to control and was only really effective if the user had impeccable multi-tasking and Dropship control. But now in StarCraft 2, the Colossus is easily manageable and has reduced consequences for poor micro, meaning the difference between LiquidHuk controlling a Colossus and me controlling a Colossus is nearly indistinguishable to the viewer.


Anyone who played BroodWar for an extended period of time will confidently agree that the multi-tasking and general strategy requirements for StarCraft 2 have a much lower standard for success - that is to say, the sequel was made considerably easier and more forgiving. In StarCraft 2, when you lose a building while researching an upgrade, your money is returned; when you warp-in a Stalker too close to battle and it dies, not only are you refunded the money, but your Warp-Gate cycle is reset. Siege Tanks and Banelings have "Smart-Targeting", Marines have "Smart-Fire", and there are friendly little reminders when your M.U.L.E., larva inject or Chronoboost cycles are complete. This is a far cry from the ruthless days of BroodWar, when every action had consequence, and the more actions you could execute, the less mistakes you would make. Old-school professional players like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, Yellow and Elky had, on top of many other skills, astounding A.P.M.; not just the spamming-control-groups-A.P.M. that everyone does, but numbers upward of 250 well into a 40-minute game. Now, in StarCraft 2, we have pro players like White Ra, Goody, Sjow and Thorzain who hover in the mid-100s, yet remain successful at the highest levels.


Why would Blizzard make their sequel easier? Why not make it as hard, if not harder to play? Are people getting stupider, or less comfortable on a keyboard? Of course not. If anything, gamers are getting smarter and more capable on a keyboard. So what gives?
There are several reasons why Blizzard would opt for a less demanding game, but the key factor is the attraction of a new customer base. One of the major reasons why competitive BroodWar didn't really flourish in the North Americas was because of the strangle-hold the Korean pro-gaming scene already had secured on the market, and, subsequently, how much of a skill-discrepancy existed.

No, this isn't a racial superiority thing, or even a cultural thing, but rather an issue of funding - that is, the rewards that a Korean professional gamer could earn versus that of a North American were far from comparable. As Dustin Browder said in his recent interview, this phenomenon can simply be explained by time spent practicing because a Korean pro-gamer could actually support himself solely on StarCraft tournament earnings, whereas a North American or European could not.


So Blizzard, in an attempt to create the next new "e-sport", designed a game where the top level was a much more practical and attainable goal. The professional gamer no longer needs to practice 12 hours a day to remain competitive, and this makes the lower tier players recognize that upward mobility is quite achievable.

The beauty of this marketing dynamic is that it also allows a much larger pool of players at the bottom to feel like they are skilled, and thus, be more inspired to continue queuing up games. Now instead of 1000-player ranking divisions, we have 100. Now instead of a traditional scholastic grading system like A, B+ or C-, we have leagues like Platinum, Bronze and Gold (where Gold league represents your standing at roughly the 50th percentile...). And this is not even to mention the biggest fluff feature of them all, the hidden M.M.R modifier; a secret ranking system designed to find suitable opponents while not damaging our fragile gaming egos.

Aspects of Battle.net 2.0 like Facebook/Twitter integration, lack of a L.A.N. system, "Real I.D." friendships and only one-account-per-game-copy are all in a consolidated effort to distinguish you as an individual, and to discourage "faceless" gaming. Furthermore, Battle.net 2.0 is chock full of easily possible achievements, a showcase for said achievements, a plethora of portraits to individualize your account, and even a non-loss record for any league lower than Master. In fact, only a few months ago Blizzard decided to lower the M.M.R threshold for promotion into Master League - no doubt to satisfy the thousands of frustrated "high Diamond players" that continuously complained on the Battle.net forums. The point of all of these features is to reinforce the idea that you are a unique and beautiful snowflake, instead of a mere number on the global ranking ladder of over a million players. StarCraft 2 has become a celebration of mediocrity, instead of a pedestal for brilliance.


I guess my major issue with StarCraft 2 is the overall ease of play combined with players not being punished for mistakes. Of course certain micro-intensive scenarios still exist, but there has been a severe simplification of both strategy and macro-management. While I think that all races got touched by the EZ-wand, I feel as if Terran got the majority of the coddling. Terran in BroodWar was unbelievably fragile, but, at the same time very strong when balanced by the user. Terran in StarCraft 2 seems very obtuse and monotonous, and has a variety of features that just should never exist in a competitive Real-Time Strategy game. No, I'm not necessarily just talking about units strengths and/or their counters, I'm talking about the forgiving nature of the race's strategy and macro. It seems to me that Blizzard intentionally made Terran more user-friendly, or, to be blunt, "noob-friendly".


But why would Blizzard make 1 race easier than the other 2? Wouldn't that affect their reputation for making such amazing Real-Time Strategy games?

Yes, of course it would. Unfortunately, that doesn't matter. Let's look at this from a business perspective (specifically Blizzard's perspective):

Blizzard knows that the BroodWar player market is already locked up. They don't need to go out of their way to appeal to the group of customers that has been anxiously awaiting the release of StarCraft 2 for nearly a decade. If you played Protoss in BroodWar, you would probably continue to play Protoss in StarCraft 2, just as if you played Zerg in BroodWar, you would probably continue to play Zerg in StarCraft 2. Blizzard's goal was to create a new pool of users by appealing to the low-work/high-reward mentality. The target market for Blizzard was the fresh generation of F.P.S. gamers; the masses of teenagers who had limited attention spans and a much higher regard for instant gratification. And because this first installment of StarCraft 2 is the Terran expansion, and Terran is the campaign race (the race that a gamer who had never once played an R.T.S. game would play), it would make perfect logical sense that Terran is the race that is the most forgiving.


In what specific ways is StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty "Terran favored"?


- The availability of "Supply Drop": I am literally astounded that a feature like this was included in the multiplayer experience. Yea, it was cool in the campaign, along with self-healing Siege Tanks and Refineries that mine themselves, but managing food for your army is one of the most fundamental skill-sets in any competitive strategy game. This is clearly a band-aid feature; one designed purely to keep an inferior player on equal footing with his opponent. In all objectivity, I cannot possibly think of any reasonable justification for the existence of "Supply Drop" other than for retroactively helping a player catch up in macro if he/she has failed to produce food properly.


- The existence of "Smart-Fire" and "Smart-Targeting": While I have given these two features similar names, I can assure you that they are quite different. I will start with "smart-targeting". As you may or may not know, units in this game are given a hidden "targeting priority", so that the A.I. may selectively fire on units that have been ranked as a bigger threat. The most perverse example of this is the Siege Tank, which will target an Infestor or High Templar over a Roach or Stalker, even if there are 90 Roaches and only 1 Infestor in its range. Confused? After its initial volley on the forward units, the Siege Tank will fire on the unit that has been given the highest targeting priority. This means that if a player runs a ball of Zealots and a few High Templar into a Terran stronghold, the Terran player is not forced to manually target the High Templar before they Storm his marines, because the Siege Tanks will automatically target the High Templars for him. Combined with a bonus damage to Armored units, and subsequent splash, it makes the Siege Tank a highly cost-effective unit that requires no micro management other than siege placement. This feature also exists in Banelings, which, when move-commanded, will not detonate on a non-light unit unless told to do so. Additionally, "Smart-Fire" is another feature intended to remove micro-oriented tasks from the user. I am sure most of you have heard about it, but in case you haven't, here it is: Any unit that does not have a visible projectile animation when firing (read: Marines, Siege Tanks, Thor's ground attack and Immortals), will never fire 1 extra, unnecessary shot to kill an enemy unit. That means that when left alone, these units (coincidentally 75% of which are Terran units) will never over-kill, therefore maximizing the amount of damage they can deal in the shortest time possible.


- The existence of "Auto-Repair": Another noob-friendly mechanic that has no place in a competitive Real-Time Strategy game. I don't remember a lot of BroodWar Terran players complaining that it was too hard to right-click on a unit you want to have repaired. However in StarCraft 2, a Terran player can send his army of Thors or Battlecruisers into an engagement with a flock of S.C.V.s not only tagged to the units, but also set to auto-repair, and be free to continue macro-related tasks at his base. This also goes hand-in-hand with Terran being "cheese-proof", as so many have said, because 1 or 2 Marines combined with self-healing S.C.V.s can hold off every kind of early aggression. Additionally, this is an issue when harassing a Terran wall. In BroodWar, when you told your S.C.V.s to repair a structure under attack, and that structure was healed to its maximum health, the S.C.V. would cease repairing unless re-issued the command. In StarCraft 2, the Terran player can leave a group of S.C.V.s idle at his wall set to auto-repair, and literally forget about it for the rest of the game.


- Most Terran units have similar, or the same, move-speeds: Yea, of course there are the Hellions or Reapers with Nitro-pack that are quite fast, but those are harassing units, and supposed to be fast. And yea, of course, there are Battlecruisers and Thors which move at 1.88 (the same as High Templar), or Siege Tanks that don't move at all when sieged, but those are specialty units, and never made en masse. What I'm referring to is the basic army composition units; units that the Terran player is going to make most often in various match-ups, but specifically the composition used against Protoss. Since all of Terran's units are ranged, there is never an issue of one unit not being within attacking range of a target. What this facilitates is the ability for the user to use 1 control group for his entire army, because the units will stay relatively close when given a single move command. Here is a list of Terran units and their respective move-speeds:

1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75

Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.

Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:

1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25

Notice a much greater variation when compared to Terran? The core units have a much wider range of speeds. If a Protoss player has a unit composition of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Immortal, he has to carefully manipulate his various units so that the Immortals are not stuck dancing around behind the Stalkers, or the melee-attack Zealots are in the front tanking damage as they are intended to do, or the Sentrys are in range of casting Force Fields during an engagement.

This is an even bigger issue with Zerg, because most of Zerg's core units are either melee units or have poor range, and need to appropriate positioning to maximize efficacy. The following move-speeds are all off-Creep:

1) Speedling - 2.95
2) Baneling without speed - 2.5
3) Roach with speed - 3.0
4) Infestor - 2.25
5) Mutalisk - 3.75
6) Hydralisk - 2.25
7) Ultralisk - 2.95
8) Broodlord - 1.41

Zerg seems to have the greatest variation in unit speed of all of the races. I agree that this is most certainly an advantage in the sense that a lot of Zerg's units are very fast, but it is also a disadvantage in the sense that a Zerg player is required to have multiple control-groups for a standard army. So while the difference in the unit move-speeds of the three races are not drastic, having a generalized 2.25 move-speed for Terran reduces the need for good positioning and micro-management, while Protoss or Zerg are required to micro to make sure that all of their units are being used efficiently.


- The idea of salvageable Bunkers: Again, another issue on which there has been great debate since the release of this game a year ago. In fact, there was so much raucous on the forums and in the professional scene about free Bunkers that Blizzard took a step toward acknowledging that there shouldn't be anything in StarCraft 2 that is no-risk/high-reward. I understand that the idea of static defense differs with Terran, when compared to the other two races, because it requires offensive units to be effective, but that doesn't change the fundamental idea in R.T.S. games that you should be punished for bad decisions. I guess I should be happy that at least Terran loses at least a tiny bit of resources for a bunker now, but still 25 minerals is far from game-changing. Once again, I don't remember Terran players in BroodWar complaining about Bunkers costing 100 minerals.


- The low-gas/high-mineral costs of Terran: I think we can all agree that Vespene Gas is a far more coveted and valuable resource than Minerals. On most maps there is a ~2.5 : 1 ratio of minerals-to-gas available to be mined. This is not including the rate at which you can mine, because that would clutter this post up with non-essential math. The issue here is that gas is more valuable and, overall, Terran has considerably lower gas-costs than Protoss or Zerg. Now this is not necessarily the case in Terran versus Terran, but it is clearly the case in Terran versus either Protoss or Zerg. Often times I see, in both my games in mid-Master League as well as higher-level games, a Terran in the late game with a surplus of gas and a paucity of minerals. Conversely, I rarely see a Protoss or Zerg player in the late game with an abundance of gas. I think this is because the Terran army is so "mineral efficient", while the Protoss and Zerg army is so "mineral inefficient".
The standard army composition for Terran versus Protoss is heavy Marine (0 gas), Marauder (25 gas), Medivac (100 gas), Ghost (100 gas) and Viking (75 gas). That is, a Terran player is massing these units that cost very little gas, and therefore can be massed more quickly. Now the Protoss player is massing the following units versus Terran in a standard army: Zealot (0 gas), Stalker (50 gas), Sentry (100 gas), Immortal (100 gas), Colossus (200 gas), or Templar tech, which is even more gas-intensive when combined with the Gateway units. As you can see, the Protoss army requires much more gas to be on equal-footing with his Terran opponent.
Additionally, the standard army composition for Terran versus Zerg is heavy Marine (0 gas), Medivac (100 gas), Siege Tank (125 gas), while Zerg needs several Banelings (25 gas a piece and are disposable) to counter the Marines, and Mutalisks (100 gas) en masse to counter the Siege Tanks. I will not even mention the Hellion since the issue of it only costing minerals has been all over the Blizzard forums since its abusive potential was illustrated at MLG Anaheim a few weeks ago.


- The past, and current, 1v1 ladder map-pool: It is quite obvious that the majority of the 1v1 ladder map-pool has been in Terrans favor (at least when fighting Zerg), since the release of this game. We started with maps like Kulas Ravine, Steppes of War and Delta Quadrant, only to be introduced to Backwater Gulch, Slag Pits, Antiga Shipyard and Searing Crater. And those are just the blatantly Terran-favored maps; we still have several other maps with favorable chokes for a Marine/Siege Tank composition (Typhon Peaks and Abyssal Caverns), as well as others with a plethora of rocks and close spawns a mere 15 seconds from each other. Sure, Zerg has been given a few Zerg-favored maps (Tal'darim Altar and Metalopolis), but with only 3 vetos allowed, Zerg is pigeonholed into playing on maps with no reaction time, and limited areas in which to engage. Even with tournament maps such as Crevasse and Terminus RE, which have been engineered to be more-favorable to Zerg than Blizzard's ladder pool, Terran has been dominating Zerg since the inception of competitive StarCraft 2 tournaments in August of 2010. The link to the winrates can be found here: http://i.imgur.com/uaVuw.png. Last month was the first time in the past year that Zerg came even close to Terran in terms of win rates, but it now appears to be sliding back to its default position of Terran dominance.


- Terran's "generalized" strategy and macro: I think one of the most problematic issues with Terran is it's "do-all" units actually really are "do-all". Because the units are all ranged, and most have anti-air capabilities, you could not scout, blindly make a combination of a few units, and be not only safe from every opening but be cost effective in the engagement. Or, as MarineKingPrime showed us all for 6 months, a Terran player could literally mass Marines in every match-up and still have a viable army well into the mid-game. The only time a mass-Marine build is threatened is when there are several Protoss tier 3 units, or Infestors, in play. For some reason, the counter to mass Marines is always a combination of very gas-heavy units. On top of this blind-building of units, Terran actually has the most luxurious macro because it is the only race that can queue units in all of its production facilities. This allows Terran to spend the most time looking at the field of the three races, and the least amount of time bouncing around their base on macro-related tasks. Aside from planting Supply Depots and dropping M.U.L.E.s, there is literally no reason a Terran should ever need to look away from a battle.


- The lack of a cool-down period on M.U.L.E.s: Players have been complaining about this for a year now. And this is another band-aid feature similar to "Supply Drop" designed purely to allow a player to catch-up if he has fallen behind on macro. While the Terran economy is based around the M.U.L.E to be comparable to their Zerg and Protoss counterparts, it is not a necessity. So while the Protoss player has to remain vigilant with their Chronoboosting in order to minimize a unit's production or upgrade timing, and the Zerg player has to remain cognizant of their larva injects so as to maximize the amount of units they can produce from each Hatchery, a Terran player can forget about "Muling" for several minutes, but then catch-up by dropping 5 or 6 on a freshly secured base.


The following is an interview with StarCraft 2's lead balance designer, Dustin Browder. The link can be found here: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6325853/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm-qanda-with-dustin-browder

"There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, 'I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good.' (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, 'Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced.' That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.

It's a lengthy process from deciding which balances we want to do to the point where it got live in the community. We've done nerfs to the bunkers and the rushes are no longer in the game by the time the patch goes live. We're like, 'Do we need this? Eh…alright, let's just put in what we thought was good at the time and just go with it.' The dynamics change so quickly that sometimes it's hard for us to keep up. The fans are still learning so much from the game and figuring out what works. I don't know how much balanced the game is six months from now to a year, but our internal members that checked the win/loss percentage in all regions are very positive except for Grandmaster Korea, which shows an advantage to Terran.

However, we've heard from Korean pro gamers and casual players that this is more of a cultural issue than anything else. Part of the factor is that Terrans do the easiest early-game rushes and they're the most defendable against them too; Koreans do the most rushing when compared to the rest of the world. But I don't know; it could all be lies. It could be, 'Oh, it's broken, but [the dev team] did not know that yet.' The Europeans, the Americans, and the Chinese haven't figured it out yet."


In the end, and aside from my complaints, I think Blizzard did what they set out to do: create a game that appeals to the regular gamer, and allows for a lot more flexibility in gameplay. And after reading Dustin Browder's most recent interview, I am honestly filled with confidence that the Blizzard development team has a good idea about what is wrong, and also how to fix the glaring issues. Unfortunately, I fear that we may have to wait for Heart of the Swarm for any significant change.


Thank you for reading this essay.

Terran micro is definetely harder than zerg or protoss micro, and BTW you are wrong about the siege tank autofocus. In a battle, tanks do NOT automatically focus fire infestors and HT's, I don't know where you got this from but it is not true at all.

Yes. Yes it is true. Have you never heard that before? I guess to be fair I have never seen it in text but I have heard commentators say that as well. So as far as I am concerned, it is truth. But anyone please feel free to prove me wrong! As I would like to know the truth.
My wife for Aiur.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 16 2011 02:54 GMT
#194
1: One of my major design issues in detection. I have no idea why fungle growth and EMP both reveal cloaked units, but psystorm doesn't. It just seems weird that protoss have only 2 forms of detection and the other races simply have more.

2: My other issue is on the same line with Protoss scouting. Protoss's inability to take control of the map, specifically vs zerg(and other protoss, if you think about it) I think promotes the all in styles we see from a lot of the korean players. Protoss have difficult getting reliable information early in the game without dumping a lot of gas(min is 175 and you get a building that may make units you want). The fact that protoss is forced to spend gas to scout, rather than scan or sack an overlord, is one of the weakest parts of the race. I think zerg also has a similar problem vs terran(on one base).

3: Immortals. They need some love. They cost a ton(1 immortal + 1 sentry = 1 colossi) and have no staying power into the end game. Also they are slow and do not work well with stalkers. Stalkers are so quick, they constantly block immortals from firing. Even if you are microing, its a consent battle if the fight isn't a straight up slug fest. Considering that everything in SC 2 is so mobile, I would like to see the immortal get some loving. We all want less colossi, right?

So in short, I would like ways to get more reliable information on my opponent.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
August 16 2011 02:57 GMT
#195
On August 16 2011 11:53 Wren wrote:
Spines are only tight if they are perfectly square to each other. Any diagonal is an opening.

edit: As for the idea of nerfing marines to buff scouting, just put overlord speed at hatchery tech.


I don't think that's true. I think that even if you put 2 spines perfectly square, a hellion still can get through? Can someone confirm this?
I love.
kodas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States418 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 03:00:39
August 16 2011 02:57 GMT
#196
On August 16 2011 11:51 AdrianHealey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 11:45 kodas wrote:A scan doesn't always hit the right target, in fact you can hide your tech pretty well, ala the ovie lair drop creep, would you be in the favor of overlords losing that ablity so that Terran can have the "perfect information" that you seem to think a scan gives..


There is a reason why zerg (on any level) don't hide tech with ovie lair drop creep technique. It's called 'drops'. (No, really, try to play as zerg and try to hide tech for 5 games and see how much succes you have with it.) And it really doesn't provide all that use. We go either muta or infestor first (it's the one or the other) and terrans build turrets for both (detection/attacking the muta). And boths are countered (soft/hard) by marines. So it doesn't really matter all that much, in my experience.

I know that scans don't provide perfect information all the time. However, neither does this buff for zerg.

But that's not even important; an overlord, even with the marine not be able to shoot up (in the beginning of the game) is not exactly a scan either. Overlords are still pretty slow and the upgrade wouldn't exactly be 'late game' (au contraire, it might well be the very first upgrade you take, unless you for a really fast attack/harass).

I would change the overlord creep ability for scan any day of the week, though. Scanning would be awesome for zerg.

That is the problem either the build time would be too small to matter or you would have a zvz situation, also you would run into situation where the Terran has to either pressure or stop scouting, if you cut marine production for that long at any point, the normal 4 scouting lings would be able to give enough information to stop any pressure and then the zerg just drooooones away, or the Terran doesn't research it and the zerg knows what is comming and just crushes it because he can see everything and make the perfect amount of lings.First we have to agree that to come out even in the midgame, Terran has to do some kind of damage early game. It most give the zerg too much ability to stop ANY pressure. A better fix imo would be to make spines build faster and design the game where two different races can macro evenly and still come out in the same position
Get paper, fuck bitches, smoke trees, mass thors.
AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 03:01:17
August 16 2011 03:01 GMT
#197
On August 16 2011 11:54 Plansix wrote:
1: One of my major design issues in detection. I have no idea why fungle growth and EMP both reveal cloaked units, but psystorm doesn't. It just seems weird that protoss have only 2 forms of detection and the other races simply have more.


Well; your detection system is invisible as well. :p A decloacking upgrade for immortals! :D

2: My other issue is on the same line with Protoss scouting. Protoss's inability to take control of the map, specifically vs zerg(and other protoss, if you think about it) I think promotes the all in styles we see from a lot of the korean players. Protoss have difficult getting reliable information early in the game without dumping a lot of gas(min is 175 and you get a building that may make units you want). The fact that protoss is forced to spend gas to scout, rather than scan or sack an overlord, is one of the weakest parts of the race. I think zerg also has a similar problem vs terran(on one base).


How does hallucination fair against terran? (Honest question; I really don't know.)


3: Immortals. They need some love. They cost a ton(1 immortal + 1 sentry = 1 colossi) and have no staying power into the end game. Also they are slow and do not work well with stalkers. Stalkers are so quick, they constantly block immortals from firing. Even if you are microing, its a consent battle if the fight isn't a straight up slug fest. Considering that everything in SC 2 is so mobile, I would like to see the immortal get some loving. We all want less colossi, right?

So in short, I would like ways to get more reliable information on my opponent.


I agree that immortals need a change so they are also viable late game. (A lot of units would benefit from special late game upgrades, such as chargelots, cracklings and blink stalkers.)

Decloacking immortals would be awesome. :D
I love.
Miefer
Profile Joined March 2011
Taiwan229 Posts
August 16 2011 03:04 GMT
#198
i think its pretty sensless to have an upgrade to shoot up. it would make too big of an impact on other matchups than the tvz. what do you do if you get banshee rushed or even voidrays early on? you have then to prioritize this upgrade over stim, which is crucial in tvp. also how long should it take? if too long you are too vulnurable against air if too short it doesnt ake sense anymore. also i dont think that early scouting is that hard for zerg. the first 3 min you can scout with the drone if terran goes 2 rax or 1 rax gas. if one rax gas you can check the front if he ads reactor on rax,so you can guess it is a hellion opening. as zerg you can steal gas with only 25 minerals, so you can take away the option of early banshee. i mean terran has the same scouting option as zerg, which terran use a scan instead of a mule in the first 6-7 minutes?
skatbone
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1005 Posts
August 16 2011 03:05 GMT
#199
On August 16 2011 07:07 Xenogears wrote:
Techno I entirely agree with you on TvP MU, you have to be really skilled to "make it happen" when Protosses mostly don't have much to do.

I know the game is balanced at high level, but it is really frustrating for low master / high diamond like myself to lose so badly when the "terran magic" does not happen.

Even more frustrating when there is no magic needed from the protoss...



First, I agree that balance should mostly be discussed in relation to the highest levels of play.

Secondly, at all levels of play, I want to challenge the notion that toss requires less micro than terran.

As a former diamond random and now a diamond toss (in other words, I'm not very good), I am wondering where your idea that toss requires "no magic" comes from. You were replying to a poster who claimed that toss requires less mirco than Terran. I see the opposite in the early to mid game. And, to the extent that a Terran has ghosts, the late game seems balanced to me in that both sides have to intensively mirco and position to negotiate the landing and dodging of storms and emps.

Early to mid game, when I am trying to stay alive, I have to place near-perfect FFs, bait stims and run away, ensure that Guardian Shield is covering my zealots, and retreat when all my zealots are dead. This last point is not only about micro, but about making sure that I am watching the battle as I am warping in units. If I do not win the battle outright (and early game, I rarely do) and I fail to retreat at the right time, I lose all my sentries and my mid and late game are gimped.

tl;dr I don't think the tvp balance discussion should be based around claims that one race requires more or less micro than the other. Having played both races, I find them both to demand a lot of micro. I respect those with good stim-kiting as it is difficult to macro when chargelots are breathing on your marauders. I also respect toss who recognize that gateway units are fragile and expensive and, as such, must by intensively microed.
Mercurial#1193
AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
August 16 2011 03:06 GMT
#200
On August 16 2011 11:57 kodas wrote:
That is the problem either the build time would be too small to matter or you would have a zvz situation, also you would run into situation where the Terran has to either pressure or stop scouting, if you cut marine production for that long at any point, the normal 4 scouting lings would be able to give enough information to stop any pressure and then the zerg just drooooones away, or the Terran doesn't research it and the zerg knows what is comming and just crushes it because he can see everything and make the perfect amount of lings.First we have to agree that to come out even in the midgame, Terran has to do some kind of damage early game. It most give the zerg too much ability to stop ANY pressure. A better fix imo would be to make spines build faster and design the game where two different races can macro evenly and still come out in the same position


Well; if you put it into tech lab (which you build anyway, if you don't go for 3/4/5 rax all in), it doesn't cut into your marine production.

I do agree that terran needs to be able to do some damage/harass because zerg would otherwise be able to just drone like a mad men. (A nerf in that departement might work, but I really have no idea how that would be possible.) However; I don't share your pessimism that it's either 'too small' or have a 'zvz' situation. It would seem odd that there wouldn't be at time/cost which could be pretty much optimal.

I love.
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