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On November 05 2014 02:05 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 01:38 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 00:29 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true? ByuL, Rogue, Sacsri, Dark ByuL is at 70% - in series, he beat Major and Reality Rogue is at 73% - in series, he beat Center twice, Innovation (2-0), Flash (2-0), Iaguz, and Journey Sacsri is at 62.5% - in series, he beat Heromarine and ForGG and lost to Reality Dark 40% - in series, he beat Byong and lost to Flash and TY So from all this, we can say that Rogue had a good tournament at MSI and won 2 bo3 vs top Terrans. There is a lot of data floating out there and a lot of numbers that make it easy to gravitate towards 50%, but the point I've been trying to make for the last few pages is that consistently, the top Terrans are beating the top Zergs, especially in Bo5s in big tournaments. Innovation 71% - in series, he beat Hyun, soO, DRG, Life... (Petraeus, Snute) Taeja 65.2% - in series, he beat, Hyun, soO, Jaedong (Violet, Petraeus, Xigua, Hendralisk) Bomber 61% - in series, he beat Jaedong, DRG, Check, TRUE (Slam) Besides just watching the games ... they just don't LOOK fair even. Players Scores Tournament Polt vs viOLet 3 2 IEM Toronto Qualifiers Center vs RagnaroK 0 3 Dragon #4 Invitational Bogus vs Life 3 0 Destiny I SalvatioN vs LosirA 0 3 Gisado 6 Bomber vs Jaedong 2 3 WEC 2014 Qualifiers Polt vs viOLet 3 1 Red Bull Battlegrounds TaeJa vs viOLet 3 1 IEM Toronto Journey vs Revival 3 2 Olimo 5 YoDa vs HyuN 0 3 MSI Beat It EU Qualifiers GuMiho vs Rogue 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Maru vs Dark 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bbyong vs ByuL 3 0 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bogus vs DRG 3 0 Code S Cure vs Solar 3 1 Code S FanTaSy vs Symbol 3 2 Gisado 9 GuMiho vs Rogue 1 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Journey vs ByuL 3 2 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers MarineKing vs Armani 2 3 Olimo 7 KeeN vs RagnaroK 2 3 Leifeng 7 SuperNova vs Impact 0 3 Olimo Sept Center vs Impact 4 2 Olimo Sept Center vs Bboong 3 1 Leifeng 14 FanTaSy vs Armani 3 1 Olimo 8 Bogus vs soO 4 2 Code S GuMiho vs LosirA 0 3 Leifeng 16 YoDa vs Golden 3 0 WCS EU Miso vs Hydra 0 3 Leifeng 17 GuMiho vs Solar 3 0 Leifeng 20 MarineKing vs Impact 1 3 Olimo 9 Heart vs HyuN 3 1 WCS AM Center vs Symbol 0 3 Leifeng 24 TY vs Dark 3 2 WECG KeeN vs TRUE 0 3 Leifeng 27 Reality vs Sacsri 3 1 Against the Odds Reality vs ByuL 3 4 Against the Odds FanTaSy vs TRUE 2 3 Olimo Oct Bogus vs HyuN 3 1 Blizzcon TaeJa vs soO 3 1 Blizzcon Bomber vs Jaedong 3 2 Blizzcon YoDa vs Rogue ? 3 MSI Beat It Total TvZ 85 80 BO5+ TvZs between Koreans recorded by hand from Aligulac since the last patch (any corrections welcome). The number of Terran wins can be up to 87 since no one knows how many maps YoDa took off Rogue. Voilà. You've set different parameters than what I was talking about. I didn't say "all bo5 between Koreans." My point is specific to TOP Terrans vs. TOP Zergs. Keen vs. Ragnarok is not relevant to my argument (in fact any game with Keen...) Miso vs. Hydra. Center vs. Bbong. Fantasy vs. Armani... Marineking vs Armani......... Etc. Regardless of balance, the shittier the players, the more mistakes they make, the less balance is relevant. If I played you in a ZvT right now, the winner would have nothing to do with balance. Perhaps we need to just wait and see if Terran continues to win a disproportionate amount of tournaments before we judge. Also, can we talk about how Protoss is actually the one getting hosed lately? We can remove others players too right ?
Like :
Reality vs Sascri, srly, Sascri is in EU, he doesn't count.
It's funny how biased you are removing players for some criteres only you know because it doesn't fit your pov.
Inno vs DRG : DRG is has been right?
Yoda vs Golden : serisously, the guys just left for military because he didn't perform that well (jk, just for the sake of argument, I love Golden).
Bbyong vs Byul...
Anyway, you see my point, nitpicking is stupid.
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On the topic of Pathogen Glands, would the design of that upgrade be more convenient if it was faster to research so that you didn't have to wait an odd 20 seconds before building your infestors?
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On November 05 2014 03:04 Grumbels wrote:
On the topic of Pathogen Glands, would the design of that upgrade be more convenient if it was faster to research so that you didn't have to wait an odd 20 seconds before building your infestors?
There's so many relations that has such timings that wanting to remove that relationship as an argument is quite ineffective. Stuff like +1 into TC to time +2, Warpgate and Gateways. If other races had the urgency of dealing with last-minute casters such as HT and Ravens, there might be an optimal time when to get them out in tandem with upgrades as well.
There could be other reasons for reducing the research time, but I don't think it's necessary. You don't want upgrades to simply be a resource drain without some element of time consideration attached to it.
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On November 05 2014 02:43 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 02:05 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 01:38 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 00:29 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true? ByuL, Rogue, Sacsri, Dark ByuL is at 70% - in series, he beat Major and Reality Rogue is at 73% - in series, he beat Center twice, Innovation (2-0), Flash (2-0), Iaguz, and Journey Sacsri is at 62.5% - in series, he beat Heromarine and ForGG and lost to Reality Dark 40% - in series, he beat Byong and lost to Flash and TY So from all this, we can say that Rogue had a good tournament at MSI and won 2 bo3 vs top Terrans. There is a lot of data floating out there and a lot of numbers that make it easy to gravitate towards 50%, but the point I've been trying to make for the last few pages is that consistently, the top Terrans are beating the top Zergs, especially in Bo5s in big tournaments. Innovation 71% - in series, he beat Hyun, soO, DRG, Life... (Petraeus, Snute) Taeja 65.2% - in series, he beat, Hyun, soO, Jaedong (Violet, Petraeus, Xigua, Hendralisk) Bomber 61% - in series, he beat Jaedong, DRG, Check, TRUE (Slam) Besides just watching the games ... they just don't LOOK fair even. Players Scores Tournament Polt vs viOLet 3 2 IEM Toronto Qualifiers Center vs RagnaroK 0 3 Dragon #4 Invitational Bogus vs Life 3 0 Destiny I SalvatioN vs LosirA 0 3 Gisado 6 Bomber vs Jaedong 2 3 WEC 2014 Qualifiers Polt vs viOLet 3 1 Red Bull Battlegrounds TaeJa vs viOLet 3 1 IEM Toronto Journey vs Revival 3 2 Olimo 5 YoDa vs HyuN 0 3 MSI Beat It EU Qualifiers GuMiho vs Rogue 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Maru vs Dark 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bbyong vs ByuL 3 0 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bogus vs DRG 3 0 Code S Cure vs Solar 3 1 Code S FanTaSy vs Symbol 3 2 Gisado 9 GuMiho vs Rogue 1 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Journey vs ByuL 3 2 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers MarineKing vs Armani 2 3 Olimo 7 KeeN vs RagnaroK 2 3 Leifeng 7 SuperNova vs Impact 0 3 Olimo Sept Center vs Impact 4 2 Olimo Sept Center vs Bboong 3 1 Leifeng 14 FanTaSy vs Armani 3 1 Olimo 8 Bogus vs soO 4 2 Code S GuMiho vs LosirA 0 3 Leifeng 16 YoDa vs Golden 3 0 WCS EU Miso vs Hydra 0 3 Leifeng 17 GuMiho vs Solar 3 0 Leifeng 20 MarineKing vs Impact 1 3 Olimo 9 Heart vs HyuN 3 1 WCS AM Center vs Symbol 0 3 Leifeng 24 TY vs Dark 3 2 WECG KeeN vs TRUE 0 3 Leifeng 27 Reality vs Sacsri 3 1 Against the Odds Reality vs ByuL 3 4 Against the Odds FanTaSy vs TRUE 2 3 Olimo Oct Bogus vs HyuN 3 1 Blizzcon TaeJa vs soO 3 1 Blizzcon Bomber vs Jaedong 3 2 Blizzcon YoDa vs Rogue ? 3 MSI Beat It Total TvZ 85 80 BO5+ TvZs between Koreans recorded by hand from Aligulac since the last patch (any corrections welcome). The number of Terran wins can be up to 87 since no one knows how many maps YoDa took off Rogue. Voilà. You've set different parameters than what I was talking about. I didn't say "all bo5 between Koreans." My point is specific to TOP Terrans vs. TOP Zergs. Keen vs. Ragnarok is not relevant to my argument (in fact any game with Keen...) Miso vs. Hydra. Center vs. Bbong. Fantasy vs. Armani... Marineking vs Armani......... Etc. Regardless of balance, the shittier the players, the more mistakes they make, the less balance is relevant. If I played you in a ZvT right now, the winner would have nothing to do with balance. Perhaps we need to just wait and see if Terran continues to win a disproportionate amount of tournaments before we judge. Also, can we talk about how Protoss is actually the one getting hosed lately? We can remove others players too right ? Like : Reality vs Sascri, srly, Sascri is in EU, he doesn't count. It's funny how biased you are removing players for some criteres only you know because it doesn't fit your pov. Inno vs DRG : DRG is has been right? Yoda vs Golden : serisously, the guys just left for military because he didn't perform that well (jk, just for the sake of argument, I love Golden). Bbyong vs Byul... Anyway, you see my point, nitpicking is stupid.
I don't see how you can accuse me of being biased for removing players that don't fit my point when the list provided was an attempt to deny my point in the first place.
I said TOP Zergs have a difficult time against TOP Terrans. Then TheDwf posted an irrelevant list of every TvZ played.
Then I pointed out how the list is irrelevant because it includes everyone and you accuse me being biased. Mind blown.
Do you really think MarineKing and Keen are top Terrans? Or that Golden is a top Zerg?
All that list proves is that the average Terran and the average Zerg, on average, are averagely matched. Which is irrelevant.
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On November 05 2014 03:26 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 03:04 Grumbels wrote:
On the topic of Pathogen Glands, would the design of that upgrade be more convenient if it was faster to research so that you didn't have to wait an odd 20 seconds before building your infestors? There's so many relations that has such timings that wanting to remove that relationship as an argument is quite ineffective. Stuff like +1 into TC to time +2, Warpgate and Gateways. If other races had the urgency of dealing with last-minute casters such as HT and Ravens, there might be an optimal time when to get them out in tandem with upgrades as well. There could be other reasons for reducing the research time, but I don't think it's necessary. You don't want upgrades to simply be a resource drain without some element of time consideration attached to it.
Right. Upgrades generally serve as a way to delay something. You can have Stalkers now, but you can't blink until X minutes into the game. That's a solid design philosophy I think.
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On November 05 2014 03:33 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 02:43 Faust852 wrote:On November 05 2014 02:05 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 01:38 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 00:29 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true? ByuL, Rogue, Sacsri, Dark ByuL is at 70% - in series, he beat Major and Reality Rogue is at 73% - in series, he beat Center twice, Innovation (2-0), Flash (2-0), Iaguz, and Journey Sacsri is at 62.5% - in series, he beat Heromarine and ForGG and lost to Reality Dark 40% - in series, he beat Byong and lost to Flash and TY So from all this, we can say that Rogue had a good tournament at MSI and won 2 bo3 vs top Terrans. There is a lot of data floating out there and a lot of numbers that make it easy to gravitate towards 50%, but the point I've been trying to make for the last few pages is that consistently, the top Terrans are beating the top Zergs, especially in Bo5s in big tournaments. Innovation 71% - in series, he beat Hyun, soO, DRG, Life... (Petraeus, Snute) Taeja 65.2% - in series, he beat, Hyun, soO, Jaedong (Violet, Petraeus, Xigua, Hendralisk) Bomber 61% - in series, he beat Jaedong, DRG, Check, TRUE (Slam) Besides just watching the games ... they just don't LOOK fair even. Players Scores Tournament Polt vs viOLet 3 2 IEM Toronto Qualifiers Center vs RagnaroK 0 3 Dragon #4 Invitational Bogus vs Life 3 0 Destiny I SalvatioN vs LosirA 0 3 Gisado 6 Bomber vs Jaedong 2 3 WEC 2014 Qualifiers Polt vs viOLet 3 1 Red Bull Battlegrounds TaeJa vs viOLet 3 1 IEM Toronto Journey vs Revival 3 2 Olimo 5 YoDa vs HyuN 0 3 MSI Beat It EU Qualifiers GuMiho vs Rogue 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Maru vs Dark 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bbyong vs ByuL 3 0 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bogus vs DRG 3 0 Code S Cure vs Solar 3 1 Code S FanTaSy vs Symbol 3 2 Gisado 9 GuMiho vs Rogue 1 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Journey vs ByuL 3 2 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers MarineKing vs Armani 2 3 Olimo 7 KeeN vs RagnaroK 2 3 Leifeng 7 SuperNova vs Impact 0 3 Olimo Sept Center vs Impact 4 2 Olimo Sept Center vs Bboong 3 1 Leifeng 14 FanTaSy vs Armani 3 1 Olimo 8 Bogus vs soO 4 2 Code S GuMiho vs LosirA 0 3 Leifeng 16 YoDa vs Golden 3 0 WCS EU Miso vs Hydra 0 3 Leifeng 17 GuMiho vs Solar 3 0 Leifeng 20 MarineKing vs Impact 1 3 Olimo 9 Heart vs HyuN 3 1 WCS AM Center vs Symbol 0 3 Leifeng 24 TY vs Dark 3 2 WECG KeeN vs TRUE 0 3 Leifeng 27 Reality vs Sacsri 3 1 Against the Odds Reality vs ByuL 3 4 Against the Odds FanTaSy vs TRUE 2 3 Olimo Oct Bogus vs HyuN 3 1 Blizzcon TaeJa vs soO 3 1 Blizzcon Bomber vs Jaedong 3 2 Blizzcon YoDa vs Rogue ? 3 MSI Beat It Total TvZ 85 80 BO5+ TvZs between Koreans recorded by hand from Aligulac since the last patch (any corrections welcome). The number of Terran wins can be up to 87 since no one knows how many maps YoDa took off Rogue. Voilà. You've set different parameters than what I was talking about. I didn't say "all bo5 between Koreans." My point is specific to TOP Terrans vs. TOP Zergs. Keen vs. Ragnarok is not relevant to my argument (in fact any game with Keen...) Miso vs. Hydra. Center vs. Bbong. Fantasy vs. Armani... Marineking vs Armani......... Etc. Regardless of balance, the shittier the players, the more mistakes they make, the less balance is relevant. If I played you in a ZvT right now, the winner would have nothing to do with balance. Perhaps we need to just wait and see if Terran continues to win a disproportionate amount of tournaments before we judge. Also, can we talk about how Protoss is actually the one getting hosed lately? We can remove others players too right ? Like : Reality vs Sascri, srly, Sascri is in EU, he doesn't count. It's funny how biased you are removing players for some criteres only you know because it doesn't fit your pov. Inno vs DRG : DRG is has been right? Yoda vs Golden : serisously, the guys just left for military because he didn't perform that well (jk, just for the sake of argument, I love Golden). Bbyong vs Byul... Anyway, you see my point, nitpicking is stupid. I don't see how you can accuse me of being biased for removing players that don't fit my point when the list provided was an attempt to deny my point in the first place. I said TOP Zergs have a difficult time against TOP Terrans. Then TheDwf posted an irrelevant list of every TvZ played. Then I pointed out how the list is irrelevant because it includes everyone and you accuse me being biased. Mind blown. Do you really think MarineKing and Keen are top Terrans? Or that Golden is a top Zerg? All that list proves is that the average Terran and the average Zerg, on average, are averagely matched. Which is irrelevant.
Totally agree with all your posts.
Only the very top players playing against each other can be considered when discussing balance.
Which is why most of the discussion is based on soo vs taeja series.
Unlike the GSL finals, where soo played horribly against bogus, basically roach allin so many games.
But in the match against Taeja. I think all non-terran would agree that soo was playing fantastically. Not just mechanically. But tactically and strategically. And he was playing standard muta-bling transition to ultras. He was playing some of the best ZvT that I ever had the joy of watching.
Although Taeja played very well, but his play certainly wasn't as impressive as soo's.
If we look at bomber vs jaedong. Jaedong brought his A game but bomber did outplay jaedong especially with his insane splits and jaedong a move his banes.
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Doesn't have to be only bo5 games, as long as it's between a "top" terran and "top" zerg it's fine, antirw's methodology is probably the best that we have to gauge balance at high level.
Some terran's are absolutely on fire lately when it comes to TvZ.
Under these filters, Cure is 27–6 (81.82%) in games and 13–0 (100.00%) in matches.
Under these filters, TaeJa is 19–10 (65.52%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches. * (plays against foreigners)
Under these filters, INnoVation is 18–8 (69.23%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches.
Under these filters, GuMiho is 79–48 (62.20%) in games and 33–16 (67.35%) in matches.
Under these filters, Maru is 30–14 (68.18%) in games and 14–3 (82.35%) in matches.
Lets see some very good zergs:
Under these filters, Solar is 70–42 (62.50%) in games and 33–13 (71.74%) in matches.
Under these filters, Life is 17–18 (48.57%) in games and 6–7 (46.15%) in matches. ( wow life  )
Under these filters, Soulkey is 6–5 (54.55%) in games and 2–2 (50.00%) in matches. (not playing a lot)
Under these filters, DongRaeGu is 10–12 (45.45%) in games and 5–4 (55.56%) in matches.
Under these filters, Rogue is 41–19 (68.33%) in games and 19–6 (76.00%) in matches.
Under these filters, TRUE is 28–26 (51.85%) in games and 11–11 (50.00%) in matches.
Under these filters, soO is 13–13 (50.00%) in games and 5–4 (55.56%) in matches.
Can you actually find a good terran that is sub 50%? Let's try.
Under these filters, YoDa is 77–14 (84.62%) in games and 39–4 (90.70%) in matches.
Under these filters, MMA is 44–25 (63.77%) in games and 22–10 (68.75%) in matches.
Under these filters, jjakji is 41–18 (69.49%) in games and 19–7 (73.08%) in matches.
Under these filters, Polt is 33–15 (68.75%) in games and 15–3 (83.33%) in matches
Under these filters, Bomber is 13–10 (56.52%) in games and 5–2 (71.43%) in matches.
Under these filters, ForGG is 8–7 (53.33%) in games and 4–3 (57.14%) in matches.
Under these filters, Flash is 23–10 (69.70%) in games and 10–3 (76.92%) in matches.
Under these filters, Bunny is 45–23 (66.18%) in games and 16–7 (69.57%) in matches.
Under these filters, TY is 15–12 (55.56%) in games and 7–4 (63.64%) in matches.
Under these filters, Bbyong is 25–15 (62.50%) in games and 9–6 (60.00%) in matches.
Under these filters, Happy is 44–22 (66.67%) in games and 23–6 (79.31%) in matches.
Edit: MVP is the first Terran bellow 50% on aligulac
Under these filters, Mvp is 1–2 (33.33%) in games and 0–1 (0.00%) in matches. Lost to DRG
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On November 05 2014 05:07 sibs wrote:Doesn't have to be only bo5 games, as long as it's between a "top" terran and "top" zerg it's fine, antirw's methodology is probably the best that we have to gauge balance at high level. Some terran's are absolutely on fire lately when it comes to TvZ. Under these filters, Cure is 27–6 (81.82%) in games and 13–0 (100.00%) in matches. Under these filters, TaeJa is 19–10 (65.52%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches. * (plays against foreigners) Under these filters, INnoVation is 18–8 (69.23%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches. Under these filters, GuMiho is 79–48 (62.20%) in games and 33–16 (67.35%) in matches. Under these filters, Maru is 30–14 (68.18%) in games and 14–3 (82.35%) in matches. Lets see some very good zergs: Under these filters, Solar is 70–42 (62.50%) in games and 33–13 (71.74%) in matches. Under these filters, Life is 17–18 (48.57%) in games and 6–7 (46.15%) in matches. ( wow life ) Under these filters, Soulkey is 6–5 (54.55%) in games and 2–2 (50.00%) in matches. (not playing a lot) Under these filters, DongRaeGu is 10–12 (45.45%) in games and 5–4 (55.56%) in matches. Under these filters, Rogue is 41–19 (68.33%) in games and 19–6 (76.00%) in matches. Under these filters, TRUE is 28–26 (51.85%) in games and 11–11 (50.00%) in matches. Under these filters, soO is 13–13 (50.00%) in games and 5–4 (55.56%) in matches. Can you actually find a good terran that is sub 50%? Let's try. Under these filters, YoDa is 77–14 (84.62%) in games and 39–4 (90.70%) in matches. Under these filters, MMA is 44–25 (63.77%) in games and 22–10 (68.75%) in matches. Under these filters, jjakji is 41–18 (69.49%) in games and 19–7 (73.08%) in matches. Under these filters, Polt is 33–15 (68.75%) in games and 15–3 (83.33%) in matches Under these filters, Bomber is 13–10 (56.52%) in games and 5–2 (71.43%) in matches. Under these filters, ForGG is 8–7 (53.33%) in games and 4–3 (57.14%) in matches. Under these filters, Flash is 23–10 (69.70%) in games and 10–3 (76.92%) in matches. Under these filters, Bunny is 45–23 (66.18%) in games and 16–7 (69.57%) in matches. Under these filters, TY is 15–12 (55.56%) in games and 7–4 (63.64%) in matches. Under these filters, Bbyong is 25–15 (62.50%) in games and 9–6 (60.00%) in matches. Under these filters, Happy is 44–22 (66.67%) in games and 23–6 (79.31%) in matches. Edit: MVP is the first Terran bellow 50% on aligulac Under these filters, Mvp is 1–2 (33.33%) in games and 0–1 (0.00%) in matches. Lost to DRG
Well, a "good Terran" should never be below 50% unless there is serious imbalance favoring Zerg. What makes these players "top" players is that they win more than half the time in the first place. So when looking at top players You'd expect win rates in the 60-70% range.
Rather what you see are the good Terrans at 100%, 72%, 70%, 67%, 82% and the good Zergs at 71%, 46%, 50%, 55%, 76%, 50%, 56% in series.
What these stats say is that of the BEST Zergs in the world, some are losing to nearly half the AVERAGE Terrans they play whereas the Terrans are winning in a quite dominating fashion.
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On November 05 2014 03:33 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 02:43 Faust852 wrote:On November 05 2014 02:05 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 01:38 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 00:29 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true? ByuL, Rogue, Sacsri, Dark ByuL is at 70% - in series, he beat Major and Reality Rogue is at 73% - in series, he beat Center twice, Innovation (2-0), Flash (2-0), Iaguz, and Journey Sacsri is at 62.5% - in series, he beat Heromarine and ForGG and lost to Reality Dark 40% - in series, he beat Byong and lost to Flash and TY So from all this, we can say that Rogue had a good tournament at MSI and won 2 bo3 vs top Terrans. There is a lot of data floating out there and a lot of numbers that make it easy to gravitate towards 50%, but the point I've been trying to make for the last few pages is that consistently, the top Terrans are beating the top Zergs, especially in Bo5s in big tournaments. Innovation 71% - in series, he beat Hyun, soO, DRG, Life... (Petraeus, Snute) Taeja 65.2% - in series, he beat, Hyun, soO, Jaedong (Violet, Petraeus, Xigua, Hendralisk) Bomber 61% - in series, he beat Jaedong, DRG, Check, TRUE (Slam) Besides just watching the games ... they just don't LOOK fair even. Players Scores Tournament Polt vs viOLet 3 2 IEM Toronto Qualifiers Center vs RagnaroK 0 3 Dragon #4 Invitational Bogus vs Life 3 0 Destiny I SalvatioN vs LosirA 0 3 Gisado 6 Bomber vs Jaedong 2 3 WEC 2014 Qualifiers Polt vs viOLet 3 1 Red Bull Battlegrounds TaeJa vs viOLet 3 1 IEM Toronto Journey vs Revival 3 2 Olimo 5 YoDa vs HyuN 0 3 MSI Beat It EU Qualifiers GuMiho vs Rogue 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Maru vs Dark 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bbyong vs ByuL 3 0 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bogus vs DRG 3 0 Code S Cure vs Solar 3 1 Code S FanTaSy vs Symbol 3 2 Gisado 9 GuMiho vs Rogue 1 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Journey vs ByuL 3 2 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers MarineKing vs Armani 2 3 Olimo 7 KeeN vs RagnaroK 2 3 Leifeng 7 SuperNova vs Impact 0 3 Olimo Sept Center vs Impact 4 2 Olimo Sept Center vs Bboong 3 1 Leifeng 14 FanTaSy vs Armani 3 1 Olimo 8 Bogus vs soO 4 2 Code S GuMiho vs LosirA 0 3 Leifeng 16 YoDa vs Golden 3 0 WCS EU Miso vs Hydra 0 3 Leifeng 17 GuMiho vs Solar 3 0 Leifeng 20 MarineKing vs Impact 1 3 Olimo 9 Heart vs HyuN 3 1 WCS AM Center vs Symbol 0 3 Leifeng 24 TY vs Dark 3 2 WECG KeeN vs TRUE 0 3 Leifeng 27 Reality vs Sacsri 3 1 Against the Odds Reality vs ByuL 3 4 Against the Odds FanTaSy vs TRUE 2 3 Olimo Oct Bogus vs HyuN 3 1 Blizzcon TaeJa vs soO 3 1 Blizzcon Bomber vs Jaedong 3 2 Blizzcon YoDa vs Rogue ? 3 MSI Beat It Total TvZ 85 80 BO5+ TvZs between Koreans recorded by hand from Aligulac since the last patch (any corrections welcome). The number of Terran wins can be up to 87 since no one knows how many maps YoDa took off Rogue. Voilà. You've set different parameters than what I was talking about. I didn't say "all bo5 between Koreans." My point is specific to TOP Terrans vs. TOP Zergs. Keen vs. Ragnarok is not relevant to my argument (in fact any game with Keen...) Miso vs. Hydra. Center vs. Bbong. Fantasy vs. Armani... Marineking vs Armani......... Etc. Regardless of balance, the shittier the players, the more mistakes they make, the less balance is relevant. If I played you in a ZvT right now, the winner would have nothing to do with balance. Perhaps we need to just wait and see if Terran continues to win a disproportionate amount of tournaments before we judge. Also, can we talk about how Protoss is actually the one getting hosed lately? We can remove others players too right ? Like : Reality vs Sascri, srly, Sascri is in EU, he doesn't count. It's funny how biased you are removing players for some criteres only you know because it doesn't fit your pov. Inno vs DRG : DRG is has been right? Yoda vs Golden : serisously, the guys just left for military because he didn't perform that well (jk, just for the sake of argument, I love Golden). Bbyong vs Byul... Anyway, you see my point, nitpicking is stupid. I don't see how you can accuse me of being biased for removing players that don't fit my point when the list provided was an attempt to deny my point in the first place. I said TOP Zergs have a difficult time against TOP Terrans. Then TheDwf posted an irrelevant list of every TvZ played. Then I pointed out how the list is irrelevant because it includes everyone and you accuse me being biased. Mind blown. Do you really think MarineKing and Keen are top Terrans? Or that Golden is a top Zerg? All that list proves is that the average Terran and the average Zerg, on average, are averagely matched. Which is irrelevant.
Lol. Meanwhile posting stats of MMA's TvZ winrate since the patch, beating top world Zergs like Reynor or aGaham, is evidence that Terran dominates Zerg. Jesus, the double standards... I literally give you the exact, entire data of what you call "real measure to look at balance," and of course the whole list is irrelevant because one KT rookie slipped in; naturally that (predictable) reaction has nothing to do with the fact the results don't match your expectations.  And I'm the one heavily biased, right? Also lol @ calling "average players" people who could actually be in Code A, and some even in Code S. Please stop despising players because you have limited knowledge of the Korean scene.
On November 05 2014 05:07 sibs wrote:Doesn't have to be only bo5 games, as long as it's between a "top" terran and "top" zerg it's fine, antirw's methodology is probably the best that we have to gauge balance at high level. Some terran's are absolutely on fire lately when it comes to TvZ. Under these filters, Cure is 27–6 (81.82%) in games and 13–0 (100.00%) in matches. Under these filters, TaeJa is 19–10 (65.52%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches. * (plays against foreigners) Under these filters, INnoVation is 18–8 (69.23%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches. Under these filters, GuMiho is 79–48 (62.20%) in games and 33–16 (67.35%) in matches. Under these filters, Maru is 30–14 (68.18%) in games and 14–3 (82.35%) in matches. Lets see some very good zergs: Under these filters, Solar is 70–42 (62.50%) in games and 33–13 (71.74%) in matches. Under these filters, Life is 17–18 (48.57%) in games and 6–7 (46.15%) in matches. ( wow life ) Under these filters, Soulkey is 6–5 (54.55%) in games and 2–2 (50.00%) in matches. (not playing a lot) Under these filters, DongRaeGu is 10–12 (45.45%) in games and 5–4 (55.56%) in matches. Under these filters, Rogue is 41–19 (68.33%) in games and 19–6 (76.00%) in matches. Under these filters, TRUE is 28–26 (51.85%) in games and 11–11 (50.00%) in matches. Under these filters, soO is 13–13 (50.00%) in games and 5–4 (55.56%) in matches. Can you actually find a good terran that is sub 50%? Let's try. Under these filters, YoDa is 77–14 (84.62%) in games and 39–4 (90.70%) in matches. Under these filters, MMA is 44–25 (63.77%) in games and 22–10 (68.75%) in matches. Under these filters, jjakji is 41–18 (69.49%) in games and 19–7 (73.08%) in matches. Under these filters, Polt is 33–15 (68.75%) in games and 15–3 (83.33%) in matches Under these filters, Bomber is 13–10 (56.52%) in games and 5–2 (71.43%) in matches. Under these filters, ForGG is 8–7 (53.33%) in games and 4–3 (57.14%) in matches. Under these filters, Flash is 23–10 (69.70%) in games and 10–3 (76.92%) in matches. Under these filters, Bunny is 45–23 (66.18%) in games and 16–7 (69.57%) in matches. Under these filters, TY is 15–12 (55.56%) in games and 7–4 (63.64%) in matches. Under these filters, Bbyong is 25–15 (62.50%) in games and 9–6 (60.00%) in matches. Under these filters, Happy is 44–22 (66.67%) in games and 23–6 (79.31%) in matches. Edit: MVP is the first Terran bellow 50% on aligulac Under these filters, Mvp is 1–2 (33.33%) in games and 0–1 (0.00%) in matches. Lost to DRG
Avec ces filtres, Sacsri a un score de 47–17 (73.44%) en parties et de 23–5 (82.14%) en matchs.
Avec ces filtres, KangHo a un score de 61–25 (70.93%) en parties et de 26–10 (72.22%) en matchs.
Avec ces filtres, Impact a un score de 51–35 (59.30%) en parties et de 20–13 (60.61%) en matchs.
Avec ces filtres, Symbol a un score de 46–25 (64.79%) en parties et de 21–7 (75.00%) en matchs.
Avec ces filtres, HyuN a un score de 41–30 (57.75%) en parties et de 16–10 (61.54%) en matchs.
Avec ces filtres, Golden a un score de 23–16 (58.97%) en parties et de 10–5 (66.67%) en matchs.
Avec ces filtres, KingKong a un score de 13–7 (65.00%) en parties et de 6–3 (66.67%) en matchs.
KingKong is better than soO in ZvT!11!1!1
Yet another brilliant compilation of blind winrates, ignoring the real quality of opponents and how the games actually played out, which leads us... nowhere.
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On November 05 2014 05:48 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 05:07 sibs wrote:Doesn't have to be only bo5 games, as long as it's between a "top" terran and "top" zerg it's fine, antirw's methodology is probably the best that we have to gauge balance at high level. Some terran's are absolutely on fire lately when it comes to TvZ. Under these filters, Cure is 27–6 (81.82%) in games and 13–0 (100.00%) in matches. Under these filters, TaeJa is 19–10 (65.52%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches. * (plays against foreigners) Under these filters, INnoVation is 18–8 (69.23%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches. Under these filters, GuMiho is 79–48 (62.20%) in games and 33–16 (67.35%) in matches. Under these filters, Maru is 30–14 (68.18%) in games and 14–3 (82.35%) in matches. Lets see some very good zergs: Under these filters, Solar is 70–42 (62.50%) in games and 33–13 (71.74%) in matches. Under these filters, Life is 17–18 (48.57%) in games and 6–7 (46.15%) in matches. ( wow life ) Under these filters, Soulkey is 6–5 (54.55%) in games and 2–2 (50.00%) in matches. (not playing a lot) Under these filters, DongRaeGu is 10–12 (45.45%) in games and 5–4 (55.56%) in matches. Under these filters, Rogue is 41–19 (68.33%) in games and 19–6 (76.00%) in matches. Under these filters, TRUE is 28–26 (51.85%) in games and 11–11 (50.00%) in matches. Under these filters, soO is 13–13 (50.00%) in games and 5–4 (55.56%) in matches. Can you actually find a good terran that is sub 50%? Let's try. Under these filters, YoDa is 77–14 (84.62%) in games and 39–4 (90.70%) in matches. Under these filters, MMA is 44–25 (63.77%) in games and 22–10 (68.75%) in matches. Under these filters, jjakji is 41–18 (69.49%) in games and 19–7 (73.08%) in matches. Under these filters, Polt is 33–15 (68.75%) in games and 15–3 (83.33%) in matches Under these filters, Bomber is 13–10 (56.52%) in games and 5–2 (71.43%) in matches. Under these filters, ForGG is 8–7 (53.33%) in games and 4–3 (57.14%) in matches. Under these filters, Flash is 23–10 (69.70%) in games and 10–3 (76.92%) in matches. Under these filters, Bunny is 45–23 (66.18%) in games and 16–7 (69.57%) in matches. Under these filters, TY is 15–12 (55.56%) in games and 7–4 (63.64%) in matches. Under these filters, Bbyong is 25–15 (62.50%) in games and 9–6 (60.00%) in matches. Under these filters, Happy is 44–22 (66.67%) in games and 23–6 (79.31%) in matches. Edit: MVP is the first Terran bellow 50% on aligulac Under these filters, Mvp is 1–2 (33.33%) in games and 0–1 (0.00%) in matches. Lost to DRG Well, a "good Terran" should never be below 50% unless there is serious imbalance favoring Zerg. What makes these players "top" players is that they win more than half the time in the first place. So when looking at top players You'd expect win rates in the 60-70% range. Rather what you see are the good Terrans at 100%, 72%, 70%, 67%, 82% and the good Zergs at 71%, 46%, 50%, 55%, 76%, 50%, 56% in series. What these stats say is that of the BEST Zergs in the world, some are losing to nearly half the AVERAGE Terrans they play whereas the Terrans are winning in a quite dominating fashion.
Except hose Zergs AREN'T playing vs average Terrans.
How many non-Koreans has soO played? 0
Life? 0
Jaedong? 0
DongRaeGu? 0
Soulkey? 0 (and I dont know why he's even included on this, didn't he kinda-sorta-retire?
wanna guess which Zergs have 'good' looking winrates? Those playing vs non-koreans, Solar Sacsri ect.
guess what happens if you take away games vs foreigners from top Terrans?
MMA- under 50% winrate
Jjakji- From almost 70(!!!) to under 50%
I made a post on this awhile back. Top T's play vs EU / NA waaaaay more than top Zs.
edit:
Terran
Taeja vs South Koreans 57.89%
Taeja vs All 65.52%
jjakji vs South Koreans 42.86%
jjakji vs All 69.49%
INnoVation vs South Koreans 63.64%
INnoVation vs All 67.67%
MMA vs South Koreans 41.94%
MMA vs All 63.77%
Polt vs South Koreans 60.00%
Polt vs All 68.75%
Bomber vs South Koreans 61.11%
Bomber vs All 56.52% (no, I didn't get these mixed up)
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Don't you guys think there might be an inherent bias in skewing winrates in Terran's favour due to a presence of Terran success, giving Zergs a much larger pool of recycled builds they have to prepare against, while at certain points in WoL, Zergs did better because there was a less diverse array of strategies that Terran would play, resulting in greater predictability and defensibility. And in that case, there would always only be a couple of strategies at the forefront that needed adapting to, in contrast to the much greater variety of strategies that we see these days.
And by builds, I am talking about variations in the first two-three offensive maneuvers a Terran would make against Zerg.
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AntiRW already posted the stats among only Code S players, it heavily favors Terran.
Yea the foreans terrans don't dominate top zerg talent in KR, they still do decent, if I could easily filter for rating/nationality on aligulac I would ;p.
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On November 05 2014 06:05 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 03:33 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 02:43 Faust852 wrote:On November 05 2014 02:05 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 01:38 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 00:29 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true? ByuL, Rogue, Sacsri, Dark ByuL is at 70% - in series, he beat Major and Reality Rogue is at 73% - in series, he beat Center twice, Innovation (2-0), Flash (2-0), Iaguz, and Journey Sacsri is at 62.5% - in series, he beat Heromarine and ForGG and lost to Reality Dark 40% - in series, he beat Byong and lost to Flash and TY So from all this, we can say that Rogue had a good tournament at MSI and won 2 bo3 vs top Terrans. There is a lot of data floating out there and a lot of numbers that make it easy to gravitate towards 50%, but the point I've been trying to make for the last few pages is that consistently, the top Terrans are beating the top Zergs, especially in Bo5s in big tournaments. Innovation 71% - in series, he beat Hyun, soO, DRG, Life... (Petraeus, Snute) Taeja 65.2% - in series, he beat, Hyun, soO, Jaedong (Violet, Petraeus, Xigua, Hendralisk) Bomber 61% - in series, he beat Jaedong, DRG, Check, TRUE (Slam) Besides just watching the games ... they just don't LOOK fair even. Players Scores Tournament Polt vs viOLet 3 2 IEM Toronto Qualifiers Center vs RagnaroK 0 3 Dragon #4 Invitational Bogus vs Life 3 0 Destiny I SalvatioN vs LosirA 0 3 Gisado 6 Bomber vs Jaedong 2 3 WEC 2014 Qualifiers Polt vs viOLet 3 1 Red Bull Battlegrounds TaeJa vs viOLet 3 1 IEM Toronto Journey vs Revival 3 2 Olimo 5 YoDa vs HyuN 0 3 MSI Beat It EU Qualifiers GuMiho vs Rogue 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Maru vs Dark 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bbyong vs ByuL 3 0 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bogus vs DRG 3 0 Code S Cure vs Solar 3 1 Code S FanTaSy vs Symbol 3 2 Gisado 9 GuMiho vs Rogue 1 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Journey vs ByuL 3 2 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers MarineKing vs Armani 2 3 Olimo 7 KeeN vs RagnaroK 2 3 Leifeng 7 SuperNova vs Impact 0 3 Olimo Sept Center vs Impact 4 2 Olimo Sept Center vs Bboong 3 1 Leifeng 14 FanTaSy vs Armani 3 1 Olimo 8 Bogus vs soO 4 2 Code S GuMiho vs LosirA 0 3 Leifeng 16 YoDa vs Golden 3 0 WCS EU Miso vs Hydra 0 3 Leifeng 17 GuMiho vs Solar 3 0 Leifeng 20 MarineKing vs Impact 1 3 Olimo 9 Heart vs HyuN 3 1 WCS AM Center vs Symbol 0 3 Leifeng 24 TY vs Dark 3 2 WECG KeeN vs TRUE 0 3 Leifeng 27 Reality vs Sacsri 3 1 Against the Odds Reality vs ByuL 3 4 Against the Odds FanTaSy vs TRUE 2 3 Olimo Oct Bogus vs HyuN 3 1 Blizzcon TaeJa vs soO 3 1 Blizzcon Bomber vs Jaedong 3 2 Blizzcon YoDa vs Rogue ? 3 MSI Beat It Total TvZ 85 80 BO5+ TvZs between Koreans recorded by hand from Aligulac since the last patch (any corrections welcome). The number of Terran wins can be up to 87 since no one knows how many maps YoDa took off Rogue. Voilà. You've set different parameters than what I was talking about. I didn't say "all bo5 between Koreans." My point is specific to TOP Terrans vs. TOP Zergs. Keen vs. Ragnarok is not relevant to my argument (in fact any game with Keen...) Miso vs. Hydra. Center vs. Bbong. Fantasy vs. Armani... Marineking vs Armani......... Etc. Regardless of balance, the shittier the players, the more mistakes they make, the less balance is relevant. If I played you in a ZvT right now, the winner would have nothing to do with balance. Perhaps we need to just wait and see if Terran continues to win a disproportionate amount of tournaments before we judge. Also, can we talk about how Protoss is actually the one getting hosed lately? We can remove others players too right ? Like : Reality vs Sascri, srly, Sascri is in EU, he doesn't count. It's funny how biased you are removing players for some criteres only you know because it doesn't fit your pov. Inno vs DRG : DRG is has been right? Yoda vs Golden : serisously, the guys just left for military because he didn't perform that well (jk, just for the sake of argument, I love Golden). Bbyong vs Byul... Anyway, you see my point, nitpicking is stupid. I don't see how you can accuse me of being biased for removing players that don't fit my point when the list provided was an attempt to deny my point in the first place. I said TOP Zergs have a difficult time against TOP Terrans. Then TheDwf posted an irrelevant list of every TvZ played. Then I pointed out how the list is irrelevant because it includes everyone and you accuse me being biased. Mind blown. Do you really think MarineKing and Keen are top Terrans? Or that Golden is a top Zerg? All that list proves is that the average Terran and the average Zerg, on average, are averagely matched. Which is irrelevant. Lol. Meanwhile posting stats of MMA's TvZ winrate since the patch, beating top world Zergs like Reynor or aGaham, is evidence that Terran dominates Zerg. Jesus, the double standards... I literally give you the exact, entire data of what you call "real measure to look at balance," and of course the whole list is irrelevant because one KT rookie slipped in; naturally that (predictable) reaction has nothing to do with the fact the results don't match your expectations. And I'm the one heavily biased, right? Also lol @ calling "average players" people who could actually be in Code A, and some even in Code S. Please stop despising players because you have limited knowledge of the Korean scene. Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 05:07 sibs wrote:Doesn't have to be only bo5 games, as long as it's between a "top" terran and "top" zerg it's fine, antirw's methodology is probably the best that we have to gauge balance at high level. Some terran's are absolutely on fire lately when it comes to TvZ. Under these filters, Cure is 27–6 (81.82%) in games and 13–0 (100.00%) in matches. Under these filters, TaeJa is 19–10 (65.52%) in games and 8–3 (72.73%) in matches. * (plays against foreigners) Under these filters, INnoVation is 18–8 (69.23%) in games and 7–3 (70.00%) in matches. Under these filters, GuMiho is 79–48 (62.20%) in games and 33–16 (67.35%) in matches. Under these filters, Maru is 30–14 (68.18%) in games and 14–3 (82.35%) in matches. Lets see some very good zergs: Under these filters, Solar is 70–42 (62.50%) in games and 33–13 (71.74%) in matches. Under these filters, Life is 17–18 (48.57%) in games and 6–7 (46.15%) in matches. ( wow life ) Under these filters, Soulkey is 6–5 (54.55%) in games and 2–2 (50.00%) in matches. (not playing a lot) Under these filters, DongRaeGu is 10–12 (45.45%) in games and 5–4 (55.56%) in matches. Under these filters, Rogue is 41–19 (68.33%) in games and 19–6 (76.00%) in matches. Under these filters, TRUE is 28–26 (51.85%) in games and 11–11 (50.00%) in matches. Under these filters, soO is 13–13 (50.00%) in games and 5–4 (55.56%) in matches. Can you actually find a good terran that is sub 50%? Let's try. Under these filters, YoDa is 77–14 (84.62%) in games and 39–4 (90.70%) in matches. Under these filters, MMA is 44–25 (63.77%) in games and 22–10 (68.75%) in matches. Under these filters, jjakji is 41–18 (69.49%) in games and 19–7 (73.08%) in matches. Under these filters, Polt is 33–15 (68.75%) in games and 15–3 (83.33%) in matches Under these filters, Bomber is 13–10 (56.52%) in games and 5–2 (71.43%) in matches. Under these filters, ForGG is 8–7 (53.33%) in games and 4–3 (57.14%) in matches. Under these filters, Flash is 23–10 (69.70%) in games and 10–3 (76.92%) in matches. Under these filters, Bunny is 45–23 (66.18%) in games and 16–7 (69.57%) in matches. Under these filters, TY is 15–12 (55.56%) in games and 7–4 (63.64%) in matches. Under these filters, Bbyong is 25–15 (62.50%) in games and 9–6 (60.00%) in matches. Under these filters, Happy is 44–22 (66.67%) in games and 23–6 (79.31%) in matches. Edit: MVP is the first Terran bellow 50% on aligulac Under these filters, Mvp is 1–2 (33.33%) in games and 0–1 (0.00%) in matches. Lost to DRG Avec ces filtres, Sacsri a un score de 47–17 (73.44%) en parties et de 23–5 (82.14%) en matchs. Avec ces filtres, KangHo a un score de 61–25 (70.93%) en parties et de 26–10 (72.22%) en matchs. Avec ces filtres, Impact a un score de 51–35 (59.30%) en parties et de 20–13 (60.61%) en matchs. Avec ces filtres, Symbol a un score de 46–25 (64.79%) en parties et de 21–7 (75.00%) en matchs. Avec ces filtres, HyuN a un score de 41–30 (57.75%) en parties et de 16–10 (61.54%) en matchs. Avec ces filtres, Golden a un score de 23–16 (58.97%) en parties et de 10–5 (66.67%) en matchs. Avec ces filtres, KingKong a un score de 13–7 (65.00%) en parties et de 6–3 (66.67%) en matchs. KingKong is better than soO in ZvT!11!1!1 Yet another brilliant compilation of blind winrates, ignoring the real quality of opponents and how the games actually played out, which leads us... nowhere.
Sigh.
This is descending into the realm of justifying points of view on balance by selectively picking a sample of win rates again and I'd rather not go down that path. In the end it comes down to what your definitions of "top terran" and "top zerg" are and I don't think we see eye to eye on that.
Also, I think it's a bit presumptuous to dismiss my knowledge of the Korean scene because I don't think a player like Keen should be included in the statistics, but this is par for the course from TheDwf.
Hell, this matchup doesn't affect me. I'm totally content sitting back and letting tournament results do the talking. After all, they have been quite obviously doing so since the patch.
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But Zerg tournament results have been better than Protoss right? What they tell us is that Tsrran is doing very well and Protoss very badly with Zerg not doing particularily good but still winning something.
Zerg's performances in terms of Prenier tournaments has hardly changed since the patch! It's not like Terran is taking away Zerg's success!
It's rather so that at the beginming of the year P won most tournaments, Zerg a few and Terran nothing and now P and T have reversed their roles. Which doesnt sound like much of a TvZ issue.
Also given the aligulac winrates of Protoss I think those matchups are the more important ones to watch right now, ZvT is not that much off. All arguments applied to claim balancefavoring of Terran could have been applied to Protoss as well at the beginning of the year, yet PvZ hasn't turned out to be in such a bad shape for Zerg.
However, despite writing PvZ and TvP should be watched, I don't see too many immidiate problems with them. They have been doing quite well in all WCS regions all year as I posted a few pages back but given how hard Protoss was dominating for half a year, I have no doubt that Protoss is in essence fine. I guess maps are a really big problem currently for Protoss, e.g. MGR in PvZ or Nimbus in PvT - and given all the mapspecific changes to nerf Protoss in the past few seasons that doesnt come as a surprise.
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Ok, we all agree right?
Posting raw data with no argument or analysis won't help. So don't do it to claim its wrong to do so.
TheDwf, the big list you posted was not an argument, and not a counter argument. If you hoped to bait something that you could deny, then stop doing it, because its not helping.
You implied that TvZ is balanced and deemed your list relevant. If you meant something else (im sure you did) you clearly had to elaborate more.
Recent discussion is: Trying to figure whether soO skipped or forgot to research pathogen glands; Game Heart interface; Raw data with no analysis; nitpicked data to imply something.
Lets go back to the balance discussion please?
Toko, i think its not only the wider range of builds that affect the matchup but the fact that a standard army composition for terran was buffed. Zerg stopped playing mass muta so terran is sieging the creep border with most of the army and standing mid map, playing greedy behind that. Cannot do it with mass muta on the field. The threat of allowing mass muta forced terran to be more agressive, taking more fights on creep too.
I think that is how top TvZ met game looks like atm, zerg gave up on mass muta and is trying to figure out a good way to use the muta money. Terran on the other hand adapted, they can drop more and clear creep slowly with no worry of CC snipes from mutas.
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On November 05 2014 06:05 TheDwf wrote:Lol. Meanwhile posting stats of MMA's TvZ winrate since the patch, beating top world Zergs like Reynor or aGaham, is evidence that Terran dominates Zerg. Jesus, the double standards... I literally give you the exact, entire data of what you call "real measure to look at balance," and of course the whole list is irrelevant because one KT rookie slipped in; naturally that (predictable) reaction has nothing to do with the fact the results don't match your expectations. And I'm the one heavily biased, right? Also lol @ calling "average players" people who could actually be in Code A, and some even in Code S. Please stop despising players because you have limited knowledge of the Korean scene.
Actually you are. You've been known around TL long enough to know you aren't one to admit that T has a problem, even it really does. I can understand your stance ("dont nerf my race bro") but honestly, would you rather win fair and square or would you like a win against an opponent who started the game with 2 workers? Because against T, the other races are in that state.
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On November 05 2014 08:42 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 06:05 TheDwf wrote:Lol. Meanwhile posting stats of MMA's TvZ winrate since the patch, beating top world Zergs like Reynor or aGaham, is evidence that Terran dominates Zerg. Jesus, the double standards... I literally give you the exact, entire data of what you call "real measure to look at balance," and of course the whole list is irrelevant because one KT rookie slipped in; naturally that (predictable) reaction has nothing to do with the fact the results don't match your expectations. And I'm the one heavily biased, right? Also lol @ calling "average players" people who could actually be in Code A, and some even in Code S. Please stop despising players because you have limited knowledge of the Korean scene. I can understand your stance ("dont nerf my race bro") but honestly, would you rather win fair and square or would you like a win against an opponent who started the game with 2 workers? Because against T, the other races are in that state.
That bad, huh? That's why Code S ro16 distribution was 5/5/6 (ZERG, not Terran) and ro8 was 3/3/2 (TERRAN) right? (Barely. If PartinG hadn't done something so dumb that the casters were calling him out on it for ten minutes straight, Innovation wouldn't have even made it to the ro8.)
And you're accusing TheDwf's posts of being biased? Shit. There were seasons this year with 3 Terrans in Code S. Do you understand that until there are 3 Zergs in Code S period nothing that happens in TvZ is even close to being the biggest deal of the year? Do you understand this? That's what the world ending looks like.
I'm not saying that TvZ has no issues and won't need looking at in the new year. But don't go around accusing others of bias and hypocrisy if you can't even remember what was going on 6 months ago.
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On November 05 2014 00:40 Big J wrote:
DRG. It's always DRG. If DRG isn't good we have a sure sign that balance cannot be bad. He is only bad when Zerg is strong.
Yep, if drg turns on god mode its pretty indicative the race is struggling hard
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On November 05 2014 08:42 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 06:05 TheDwf wrote:Lol. Meanwhile posting stats of MMA's TvZ winrate since the patch, beating top world Zergs like Reynor or aGaham, is evidence that Terran dominates Zerg. Jesus, the double standards... I literally give you the exact, entire data of what you call "real measure to look at balance," and of course the whole list is irrelevant because one KT rookie slipped in; naturally that (predictable) reaction has nothing to do with the fact the results don't match your expectations. And I'm the one heavily biased, right? Also lol @ calling "average players" people who could actually be in Code A, and some even in Code S. Please stop despising players because you have limited knowledge of the Korean scene. Actually you are. You've been known around TL long enough to know you aren't one to admit that T has a problem, even it really does. I can understand your stance ("dont nerf my race bro") but honestly, would you rather win fair and square or would you like a win against an opponent who started the game with 2 workers? Because against T, the other races are in that state.
Cute. Unfortunately all I have to do is link this post and any credibility you might painfully try to rebuild for the next few years instantly shatters.
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On November 05 2014 09:10 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 08:42 parkufarku wrote:On November 05 2014 06:05 TheDwf wrote:Lol. Meanwhile posting stats of MMA's TvZ winrate since the patch, beating top world Zergs like Reynor or aGaham, is evidence that Terran dominates Zerg. Jesus, the double standards... I literally give you the exact, entire data of what you call "real measure to look at balance," and of course the whole list is irrelevant because one KT rookie slipped in; naturally that (predictable) reaction has nothing to do with the fact the results don't match your expectations. And I'm the one heavily biased, right? Also lol @ calling "average players" people who could actually be in Code A, and some even in Code S. Please stop despising players because you have limited knowledge of the Korean scene. Actually you are. You've been known around TL long enough to know you aren't one to admit that T has a problem, even it really does. I can understand your stance ("dont nerf my race bro") but honestly, would you rather win fair and square or would you like a win against an opponent who started the game with 2 workers? Because against T, the other races are in that state. Cute. Unfortunately all I have to do is link this post and any credibility you might painfully try to rebuild for the next few years instantly shatters.
wwwowww.
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EPT
