EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1197
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Kokujin
United States456 Posts
On November 05 2014 09:10 TheDwf wrote: Cute. Unfortunately all I have to do is link this post and any credibility you might painfully try to rebuild for the next few years instantly shatters. LOL i had a good chuckle at those balance changes, thanks for that | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
Arguements about which biased statistic is less biased than the other? | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On November 05 2014 09:10 TheDwf wrote: Cute. Unfortunately all I have to do is link this post and any credibility you might painfully try to rebuild for the next few years instantly shatters. Was surprised at how harsh that seemed... until I read the changes. Somebody REALLY hates Terran haha. Wonder how I missed that xD | ||
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691175002
122 Posts
On November 05 2014 09:10 TheDwf wrote: Cute. Unfortunately all I have to do is link this post and any credibility you might painfully try to rebuild for the next few years instantly shatters. I think the linked post may be the stupidest thing ever written in this thread. And there have been a lot of dumb posts. | ||
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Swisslink
2958 Posts
On November 05 2014 09:29 bo1b wrote: Can the community for once not push down balance changes this fucking quickly. God damn it let the game evolve a bit. No race is losing super hard early game, or mid game, and I refuse to believe that everythings been figured out already, or that maps can't change the way the game plays out a bit. So long as maps like nimbus are in the game we cannot possibly say the game is unbalanced, because that map is just retarded tbh Agreed, it might be a map issue. But if it is, it won't be resolved for several months. The #Dreampool won't fix it for sure and the tournaments are stuck with the current mappool, aren't they? | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On November 05 2014 19:52 Swisslink wrote: Agreed, it might be a map issue. But if it is, it won't be resolved for several months. The #Dreampool won't fix it for sure and the tournaments are stuck with the current mappool, aren't they? yes, I don't think it's reasonable to discus balance until like post the first quarter of 2015, as right now we have buffed terrans on somewhat terran favoring maps, next season we have the #jokepool, so it's all gonna come down to what happens after that and if anything is persistent. also, bolded part hurts ;; | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On November 05 2014 19:52 Swisslink wrote: Agreed, it might be a map issue. But if it is, it won't be resolved for several months. The #Dreampool won't fix it for sure and the tournaments are stuck with the current mappool, aren't they? It's not like there are too many tournaments coming up. Those tournaments most likely use S3 map pool. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On November 05 2014 19:52 Swisslink wrote: Agreed, it might be a map issue. But if it is, it won't be resolved for several months. The #Dreampool won't fix it for sure and the tournaments are stuck with the current mappool, aren't they? Or we can, you know, make enough noise to make tournaments use a new map pool, and see how the game plays out on non-T favored maps | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On November 05 2014 20:15 OtherWorld wrote: Or we can, you know, make enough noise to make tournaments use a new map pool, and see how the game plays out on non-T favored maps Where'd they get the maps from..? WCS kinda killed the mapping scene by forcing every tournament that wants to matter in this game to use their ladder maps. As a result, there are no other thoroughly tested maps around. Proleague maps were also played mostly by one or two races as well... | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
HSC X, Dreamhack Winter, IEM SJ will use S3 mappool. IEM Taipeh sure will use it too. There are no premiere. Maybe smaller online tournaments like something made by BTTV or other will use the new map pool for fun. But the pros wount train hard on these maps and Proleague does not hestitate to use its very own pool. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On November 05 2014 03:36 DinoMight wrote: Right. Upgrades generally serve as a way to delay something. You can have Stalkers now, but you can't blink until X minutes into the game. That's a solid design philosophy I think. First of all, I don't think Blizzard is happy with these upgrades. That's probably a contributing factor to why they removed the ghost and high templar versions, leaving the infestor and the medivac's(?). I can also recall DB/DK saying that they were going to rethink these upgrades in Heart of the Swarm, which obviously didn't happen. Secondly, the upgrade simply isn't user friendly because it depends on research rather than intuition. A player that wants to get the most out of his infestors needs to look at the different build times and calculate what would be the optimal point to start production, something which requires guess work and which even many progamers mistime. I don't think you want to confront players with specific stats like that. Finally, upgrades serving to delay is not purely great and is by definition punishing. I build stalkers and I can't use blink unless I aim for that specific tech path. It's not fun and to justify it you have to point at the increase in strategic options and the improved game balance. Tell me what's fun about finishing your infestation pit and having to wait building your infestors until you estimated that some upgrade is past 37.5% research time. Given that there are alternative solutions in making pathogen glands take only 50 seconds to research (not to mention potential upgrades that are more fun), I think you can say that this is purely punishing and not improving game balance / strategic options. It's true that the Infestation Pit actually builds quite quickly and that you might simply want to delay infestors, but I don't think it's a pressing issue. Actually, given that zerg seems slightly weak these days and that infestors aren't used as much, maybe this is a harmless buff that could increase diversity? | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On November 05 2014 20:37 SC2Toastie wrote: Where'd they get the maps from..? WCS kinda killed the mapping scene by forcing every tournament that wants to matter in this game to use their ladder maps. As a result, there are no other thoroughly tested maps around. Proleague maps were also played mostly by one or two races as well... Just have a look at the Custom Maps forum here on TL and you'll see plenty of tournament-worthy maps (and probably more ladder-worthy than the #"dream"pool). Or if you don't want to spend time separating the good maps from the bad ones (which is understandable), just look at the most recent MotMs (October, September, August, July ; special shoutout to the October one which really features only incredible maps), and tell me if you'd not like to see pros play on these maps | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On November 05 2014 20:59 OtherWorld wrote: Just have a look at the Custom Maps forum here on TL and you'll see plenty of tournament-worthy maps (and probably more ladder-worthy than the #"dream"pool). Or if you don't want to spend time separating the good maps from the bad ones (which is understandable), just look at the most recent MotMs (October, September, August, July ; special shoutout to the October one which really features only incredible maps), and tell me if you'd not like to see pros play on these maps I've always been in favor of more maps, more diversity, faster cycling, etcetera. I love odd shit on maps because I think it makes the game more exciting. Disadvantage is, odd shit needs time to be figured out. If you place a really weird map in a tyournament pool, people might A) not practice a ton of time for 1 map, B) it might be imba and abusable as fuck... I'm not familiar with the level of playtesting of MotM, so I can't comment on that. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On November 05 2014 21:03 SC2Toastie wrote: I've always been in favor of more maps, more diversity, faster cycling, etcetera. I love odd shit on maps because I think it makes the game more exciting. Disadvantage is, odd shit needs time to be figured out. If you place a really weird map in a tyournament pool, people might A) not practice a ton of time for 1 map, B) it might be imba and abusable as fuck... I'm not familiar with the level of playtesting of MotM, so I can't comment on that. Well afaik MotM does no playtesting at all, and as you pointed out earlier the real problem with the mapmaking scene right now is the lack of play maps get. This is why tournaments happening while the Dreampool is on ladder are a golden opportunity for mapmakers right now, if these tournaments use something else than the S3 map pool ofc. But the maps in MotM are far from being "really weird maps", they are more like standard-ish maps that have a little extra personality, which is why they could easily be played in a pro tournament without pros having to practice a ton for 1 map and so on. | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
On November 05 2014 20:47 Grumbels wrote: First of all, I don't think Blizzard is happy with these upgrades. That's probably a contributing factor to why they removed the ghost and high templar versions, leaving the infestor and the medivac's(?). I can also recall DB/DK saying that they were going to rethink these upgrades in Heart of the Swarm, which obviously didn't happen. Secondly, the upgrade simply isn't user friendly because it depends on research rather than intuition. A player that wants to get the most out of his infestors needs to look at the different build times and calculate what would be the optimal point to start production, something which requires guess work and which even many progamers mistime. I don't think you want to confront players with specific stats like that. Finally, upgrades serving to delay is not purely great and is by definition punishing. I build stalkers and I can't use blink unless I aim for that specific tech path. It's not fun and to justify it you have to point at the increase in strategic options and the improved game balance. Tell me what's fun about finishing your infestation pit and having to wait building your infestors until you estimated that some upgrade is past 37.5% research time. Given that there are alternative solutions in making pathogen glands take only 50 seconds to research (not to mention potential upgrades that are more fun), I think you can say that this is purely punishing and not improving game balance / strategic options. It's true that the Infestation Pit actually builds quite quickly and that you might simply want to delay infestors, but I don't think it's a pressing issue. Actually, given that zerg seems slightly weak these days and that infestors aren't used as much, maybe this is a harmless buff that could increase diversity? Since its a small change and late game, its not a big buff. But it helps when zerg want only a couple festors. It hurts to research pathogen to make two infestors and no more. It also allows zerg to make infestors earlier, again in small numbers (maybe just one). They are not reliable enough to get in big numbers unless its against something silly, but a couple festors can make magic. However it affects PvZ more than ZvT, you get festors faster against phoenixes and that is what protoss tears are made of. So its a bad change for the current state of the game. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 05 2014 20:47 Grumbels wrote: First of all, I don't think Blizzard is happy with these upgrades. That's probably a contributing factor to why they removed the ghost and high templar versions, leaving the infestor and the medivac's(?). I can also recall DB/DK saying that they were going to rethink these upgrades in Heart of the Swarm, which obviously didn't happen. Well, the Templar one was removed because it was broken as hell (you could warp in Templar and instantly storm rather than having to build them in advance). And the Ghost one was removed because Blizzard felt that Terran could use some buffs against Protoss (this is when Protoss was winning everything). | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
On November 05 2014 23:33 DinoMight wrote: Well, the Templar one was removed because it was broken as hell (you could warp in Templar and instantly storm rather than having to build them in advance). And the Ghost one was removed because Blizzard felt that Terran could use some buffs against Protoss (this is when Protoss was winning everything). They did try to rethink the medivac upgrade in HOTS to increased healing rate rather than a spawn energy boost. Also, the ghost one wasn't 'removed' in the sense that they just made the upgrade a default stat value for the ghost while the HT one was removed and the HT default stats remained the same. Also, yes, offensive HT warpins in the middle of a battle was just plain ridiculous, neverending storms. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Protoss has been kind of getting hosed lately. I think the general public is more okay with it because of how strong Protoss was at the beginning of the year, but ideally we'd like to have a balanced game and put past imbalances aside. Too many times people bring up past examples of imbalance not to demonstrate ways that problems were fixed but rather as an excuse for why current imbalance is acceptable. Right now Protoss has one viable opening vs. Terran - Colossus. This obviously is causing huge issues with the matchup especially given the layout of some of these maps... maps like Nimbus, Catallena, Deadwing where the distance between the main and 3rd/4th is extremely short by air and extremely long by ground. We saw The easy to abuse terrain combined with very predictable openings (Colossus or Stargate into Phoenix Colossus, both of which are countered by Vikings) are causing a lot of trouble for Protoss. Mass Blink+Colossus is actually really boring to watch as well. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 05 2014 23:55 DinoMight wrote: We saw Polt abuse the shit out of the Terrain on Catallena against Classic this weekend but it also happens on other maps. Polt didn't play Classic on Catallena. You probably refer to MMA vs StarDust. | ||
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And I'm the one heavily biased, right? Also lol @ calling "average players" people who could actually be in Code A, and some even in Code S. Please stop despising players because you have limited knowledge of the Korean scene.
