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On November 04 2014 23:26 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 23:01 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 22:40 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface. Yeah exactly. I understand the "learning" factor, but even then replays are way better for that regardless (if you can get em ofc). But i don't think it is very exciting to be able to predict what happens only cause we have so much information available. Why do you even watch the game then? I kinda like to be surprised, it is just way more fun to see these 50 mutas pop out before you knew it cause of the production tab, but as i said, that seems to be an unpopular opinion here^^ On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens  I agree totally and wouldn't mind the data to be pushed to post game analysis. Mishinma, I really feel like you are taking every opportunity to shove this No Bars through our throats. Not for viewer experience, but because of your personal preference. If none of you understand it is a silly thing to want the game to be 'tense' after it is clearly over. Why would you want that? To me it seems weird. If you enjoy the game being 'tense' all the time, turn off the video and only listen to certain casters hyping up 20 roach vs 80 roach battles like there is comeback potential for the 20 roach player. Nice strawman, i never said i want it to be "tense" after it is clearly over. I just would like to "figure" it out on my own instead of looking at the one million datapoints we have these days. So exciting to look at numbers and know who is ahead based on them. There may be a difference in when I think it is over and when you think it is over. Still, do you want to sacrifice 20 minutes of real time information and being able to spot some of the tiny nuances of the build because you think that is more fun? I like looking at games and seeing how they may go on. Look, SoO delays 1/1 for fast Spire, if Taeja doesn't do this or this he is in trouble. Is that turret almost done? How far in is Stim? I like that. What exactly is the information you all want to remove?
I don't need more than the current ressources and supply to enjoy the game. I probably wouldn't even need those two, but i can see why they are kinda necessary.
Everything else is not required at all though imo.
It just takes "the magic" away kinda. If i see "oh player x has like 20% more income" i kinda now that he will "have more stuff" in the next few minutes if player y doesn't do dmg fast.
I am not interested in knowing who will probably win cause Y tbh.
And i don't talk about huge advantages like your first comment stated.
But whatever, this doesn't really belong here anyway ^^
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On November 04 2014 23:39 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:34 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 23:26 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 23:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 23:01 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 22:40 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface. Yeah exactly. I understand the "learning" factor, but even then replays are way better for that regardless (if you can get em ofc). But i don't think it is very exciting to be able to predict what happens only cause we have so much information available. Why do you even watch the game then? I kinda like to be surprised, it is just way more fun to see these 50 mutas pop out before you knew it cause of the production tab, but as i said, that seems to be an unpopular opinion here^^ On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens I agree totally and wouldn't mind the data to be pushed to post game analysis. Mishinma, I really feel like you are taking every opportunity to shove this No Bars through our throats. Not for viewer experience, but because of your personal preference. If none of you understand it is a silly thing to want the game to be 'tense' after it is clearly over. Why would you want that? To me it seems weird. If you enjoy the game being 'tense' all the time, turn off the video and only listen to certain casters hyping up 20 roach vs 80 roach battles like there is comeback potential for the 20 roach player. Nice strawman, i never said i want it to be "tense" after it is clearly over. I just would like to "figure" it out on my own instead of looking at the one million datapoints we have these days. So exciting to look at numbers and know who is ahead based on them. There may be a difference in when I think it is over and when you think it is over. Still, do you want to sacrifice 20 minutes of real time information and being able to spot some of the tiny nuances of the build because you think that is more fun? I like looking at games and seeing how they may go on. Look, SoO delays 1/1 for fast Spire, if Taeja doesn't do this or this he is in trouble. Is that turret almost done? How far in is Stim? I like that. What exactly is the information you all want to remove? Isn't that the point of the observer and casters? You cannot ask observers and casters to perfectly keep track of 800 apm, each other, casting and hyping at the same time. Your solution is to have one obs show the game with reduced information (whatever that means). Then, there are going to be 2 casters that you force to keep track of this information, but also cast the game for you and stay in sync with the observer that you put in another situation with an entirely more difficult job in having to manually show even less important information? You are talking about making production much harder, lower quality and more expensive for the sake of.... What exactly? You haven't said why you want this change, nor have you said what changes you think of. There's a reason your other thread isn't amongst the living anymore.
Dude... lol...
First, I don't care if the same audio and information is played on the second stream. Just remove the health bars and clutter from the viewing area.
Second, I'm not asking observers and casters to perfectly keep track of anything. Nathanias + Tasteless really disappointed me in one game going on and on about "this is a new build, we don't know what to say", so what is all that data really good for?
Third, I'm not talking about making production harder other than cloning a stream with no health bars. As per the discussion here, that is a different issue as to what data you want on the screen.
Finally, there is a reason my other thread is gone but you haven't said why so your powers of understanding are not proven in that regard.
Also I don't mean to be overly critical but something is wrong when the observer struggles to find the other 'middle base' on a map.
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On November 04 2014 23:41 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:36 TheDwf wrote:On November 04 2014 23:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 23:24 Gwavajuice wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote:
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 :
===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research
- buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game)
- he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt
- Teaeja dies on that push
- soO wins the series
- desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind? I am fairly certain SoO didn't get Pathogen Glands on purpose. He didn't get it in game 2 or 3 despite getting infestors. I think the logic behind that is: Infestors do not die, do not take damage, and are terrible en masse. He shouldn't have to reproduce the infestors and as such, Pathogen Glands will increase the cost of his infestors by over 25% whilst not really benefiting him at all after 20 seconds... No. This reasonning is not good at all. not only he had like 8k mins and 3.5 k gaz in bank but also getting infest without pathogen galnd is just as bad as forgeting shield on marines. He would have won game 3 with pathogen glands. jsut watch the 26 mins engagement and imagine 4 fungals to start things off. you can have as many ultras as you want, if you allow marauders to kite you around and bring the fight into small chokes and narrow path, you will always loose. soO has to know this. It's jsut that the games are extremely intense and he start his first infestors 10 mins after infestation pit, so he forgets to research it. No one in his right mind can say "this games shows an imbalance" when an upgrade as important as fungal growth hasn't been researched... You say my reasoning is no good at all and completely ignore my arguments and go look at SoOs mistakes in hindisght. An infestor with Pathogen Glands is exactly the same as an Infestor without it. The exact same unit. EXACT same unit. A CS Marine is nothing like a non-CS Marine. They have a HP difference. The only difference PG makes is that the PG Infestor starts with Fungal ready, whilst the non-PG infestor has FUngal ready 20 seconds later. After that, they are equal units. Now, this 20 second window made a difference in this game. OK. That doesnt make SoO an idiot. It's so easy to look at the game with perfect information and with nothing to do but be critical of a players' every move. SoO made a decision: He did not want to pay 150/150 for a 20 second faster Fungal. I think he did that because the cost of Pathogen is immense when you only get a couple of Infestors you are planning on retaining. The 150/150 you pay for a one time 10 energy bonus is just not worth it to him as he is planning on having the Infestors for a long time. It's closely related to nobody getting medivac energy. The amount of regeneration in the game is going to make the cost of Caduceus Reactor completely not worth it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/470332-wcs-global-finals-2014-day-1?page=608#12149(Just saying.) ok. Pathogen Glands is 80 secs, Infestors 60. So sorry, the fungal is 25 seconds faster.
Infestors are 50 seconds. But there's not just the "first generation" where the difference is 15* seconds, there are the post-Pathogen ones which get their first Fungal 45 seconds earlier than those without.
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On November 04 2014 23:43 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 23:24 Gwavajuice wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote:
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 :
===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research
- buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game)
- he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt
- Teaeja dies on that push
- soO wins the series
- desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind? I am fairly certain SoO didn't get Pathogen Glands on purpose. He didn't get it in game 2 or 3 despite getting infestors. I think the logic behind that is: Infestors do not die, do not take damage, and are terrible en masse. He shouldn't have to reproduce the infestors and as such, Pathogen Glands will increase the cost of his infestors by over 25% whilst not really benefiting him at all after 20 seconds... No. This reasonning is not good at all. not only he had like 8k mins and 3.5 k gaz in bank but also getting infest without pathogen galnd is just as bad as forgeting shield on marines. He would have won game 3 with pathogen glands. jsut watch the 26 mins engagement and imagine 4 fungals to start things off. you can have as many ultras as you want, if you allow marauders to kite you around and bring the fight into small chokes and narrow path, you will always loose. soO has to know this. It's jsut that the games are extremely intense and he start his first infestors 10 mins after infestation pit, so he forgets to research it. No one in his right mind can say "this games shows an imbalance" when an upgrade as important as fungal growth hasn't been researched... You say my reasoning is no good at all and completely ignore my arguments and go look at SoOs mistakes in hindisght. An infestor with Pathogen Glands is exactly the same as an Infestor without it. The exact same unit. EXACT same unit. A CS Marine is nothing like a non-CS Marine. They have a HP difference. The only difference PG makes is that the PG Infestor starts with Fungal ready, whilst the non-PG infestor has FUngal ready 20 seconds later. After that, they are equal units. Now, this 20 second window made a difference in this game. OK. That doesnt make SoO an idiot. It's so easy to look at the game with perfect information and with nothing to do but be critical of a players' every move. SoO made a decision: He did not want to pay 150/150 for a 20 second faster Fungal. I think he did that because the cost of Pathogen is immense when you only get a couple of Infestors you are planning on retaining. The 150/150 you pay for a one time 10 energy bonus is just not worth it to him as he is planning on having the Infestors for a long time. It's closely related to nobody getting medivac energy. The amount of regeneration in the game is going to make the cost of Caduceus Reactor completely not worth it. I never said he's an idiot Oo It has nothing to do with medivac energy : medivac can always heal as soon as they get out, and by the time they get into a fight they re almost always maxed out. Very rarely you have all your infestors with 100% energy. When they have not enough energy for fungals infestors are just dead meat. it's not 20 sec, it's 45 sec, it's huge deal. watch the game again, you ll see that soO was just 2 fungals aways from wining between the 26th minuted and the 30 th minutes. Even with HotS fungal nerf, getting infest without pathogen glands is a mistake that has consequences on the outcome of game when things are that close.
See previous post. PG Infestors have FG 25 seconds before non PG infestors, but are nto at the right location yet AND cost 150/150 more.
You can add 10 energy to the non PG infestors as they are build 20 seconds earlier.
Again, you nitpick on that one single engagement and judge SoO's judgement on that one move. Yep. He made a mistake. That mistake has NOTHING to do with his decision 90 seconds earlier to start Infestors and save the money for Pathogen Glands. You're ignoring that fact. You're ignoring how a one time 10-15 energy boost at the cost of 150/150 is a price SoO is not willing to pay as he probably invests in 4 infestors for the long run.
So while this one game shows him making a booboo, it has nothing to do with his strategy of using infestors.
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On November 04 2014 23:45 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:41 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 23:36 TheDwf wrote:On November 04 2014 23:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 23:24 Gwavajuice wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote:
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 :
===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research
- buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game)
- he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt
- Teaeja dies on that push
- soO wins the series
- desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind? I am fairly certain SoO didn't get Pathogen Glands on purpose. He didn't get it in game 2 or 3 despite getting infestors. I think the logic behind that is: Infestors do not die, do not take damage, and are terrible en masse. He shouldn't have to reproduce the infestors and as such, Pathogen Glands will increase the cost of his infestors by over 25% whilst not really benefiting him at all after 20 seconds... No. This reasonning is not good at all. not only he had like 8k mins and 3.5 k gaz in bank but also getting infest without pathogen galnd is just as bad as forgeting shield on marines. He would have won game 3 with pathogen glands. jsut watch the 26 mins engagement and imagine 4 fungals to start things off. you can have as many ultras as you want, if you allow marauders to kite you around and bring the fight into small chokes and narrow path, you will always loose. soO has to know this. It's jsut that the games are extremely intense and he start his first infestors 10 mins after infestation pit, so he forgets to research it. No one in his right mind can say "this games shows an imbalance" when an upgrade as important as fungal growth hasn't been researched... You say my reasoning is no good at all and completely ignore my arguments and go look at SoOs mistakes in hindisght. An infestor with Pathogen Glands is exactly the same as an Infestor without it. The exact same unit. EXACT same unit. A CS Marine is nothing like a non-CS Marine. They have a HP difference. The only difference PG makes is that the PG Infestor starts with Fungal ready, whilst the non-PG infestor has FUngal ready 20 seconds later. After that, they are equal units. Now, this 20 second window made a difference in this game. OK. That doesnt make SoO an idiot. It's so easy to look at the game with perfect information and with nothing to do but be critical of a players' every move. SoO made a decision: He did not want to pay 150/150 for a 20 second faster Fungal. I think he did that because the cost of Pathogen is immense when you only get a couple of Infestors you are planning on retaining. The 150/150 you pay for a one time 10 energy bonus is just not worth it to him as he is planning on having the Infestors for a long time. It's closely related to nobody getting medivac energy. The amount of regeneration in the game is going to make the cost of Caduceus Reactor completely not worth it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/470332-wcs-global-finals-2014-day-1?page=608#12149(Just saying.) ok. Pathogen Glands is 80 secs, Infestors 60. So sorry, the fungal is 25 seconds faster. Infestors are 50 seconds. But there's not just the "first generation" where the difference is 15* seconds, there are the post-Pathogen ones which get their first Fungal 45 seconds earlier than those without.
They're 50, ok, cool.
Time 0.00 - SoO decides to get Infestors.
Time 0.00 - SoOa starts 4 Infestors
Time 0.00 - SoOb starts PG
Time 0.30 - SoOb starts 3 Infestors
Time 0.50 - SoOa has 4 Infestors and moves them towards the front.
Time 1.20 - SoOb has 3 Infestors with FG ready to go, standing at his base.
Time 1.35 - SoOa has 4 Infestors with Fungal Growth standing at the front.
Time 1.20+travel - SoOb has 3 Infestors with fungal at the front.
I assume SoO is not planning on getting a 'next generation' of infestors, he is planning on retaining them. In that case, skipping PG makes sense as it saves money and the Fungal is only seconds later. In this specific game, that might have made the difference. In the other 1000 games, SoO has determined PG to not be worth it.
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Given that
1) soO only made 4infestors, so putting a 150/150 upgrade into the mix for them might not be clever in the longrun
2) had to realize he couldn't fungal in that engagement and still didn't upgrade it and then remade exactly 4 Infestors
it makes sense to assume he didn't get it on purpose. Maybe he forgot it and the rebuilding Infestors would not have had it anyways, so he didn't research it then either. Or he forgot that he knew he forgot it. 
Btw there is a second engagment with fungals and soO doesn't maw through Taeja's army with fungals either. He didn't lose the game at 26mins. I mean, "hey, Taeja had an idle double drop while this engagment took place, what a massive mistake. Had he had those units killing soO's top bases he would have won then and there already". Nope.
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On November 04 2014 22:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:40 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface. Yeah exactly. I understand the "learning" factor, but even then replays are way better for that regardless (if you can get em ofc). But i don't think it is very exciting to be able to predict what happens only cause we have so much information available. Why do you even watch the game then? I kinda like to be surprised, it is just way more fun to see these 50 mutas pop out before you knew it cause of the production tab, but as i said, that seems to be an unpopular opinion here^^ Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens
Hehe, had to: + Show Spoiler +
While on the subject, what about these:
MC - 4 Gate 5%, Oracle 60%, Fast Third 10%, etc.
Hero - 3 Gate Pressure 10%, Oracle 30%, Fast Blink 50%, etc.
How about stamina bars on the NBA players? Would help me understand their decision making more. But then again I could just think back to the last few plays and see how hard dude was going after it.
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Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg.
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On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg.
solar? true?
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On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true?
They're good, but you wouldn't say oh, Solar is favored over Bomber or Innovation or Taeja or Maru. In fact I'd put my money on the Terran.
Solar's ZvT is at 46% since the patch. TRUE is at 47%.
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On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true?
ByuL, Rogue, Sacsri, Dark
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On November 04 2014 23:34 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:24 Gwavajuice wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote:
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 :
===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research
- buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game)
- he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt
- Teaeja dies on that push
- soO wins the series
- desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind? I am fairly certain SoO didn't get Pathogen Glands on purpose. He didn't get it in game 2 or 3 despite getting infestors. I think the logic behind that is: Infestors do not die, do not take damage, and are terrible en masse. He shouldn't have to reproduce the infestors and as such, Pathogen Glands will increase the cost of his infestors by over 25% whilst not really benefiting him at all after 20 seconds... No. This reasonning is not good at all. not only he had like 8k mins and 3.5 k gaz in bank but also getting infest without pathogen galnd is just as bad as forgeting shield on marines. He would have won game 3 with pathogen glands. jsut watch the 26 mins engagement and imagine 4 fungals to start things off. you can have as many ultras as you want, if you allow marauders to kite you around and bring the fight into small chokes and narrow path, you will always loose. soO has to know this. It's jsut that the games are extremely intense and he start his first infestors 10 mins after infestation pit, so he forgets to research it. No one in his right mind can say "this games shows an imbalance" when an upgrade as important as fungal growth hasn't been researched... You say my reasoning is no good at all and completely ignore my arguments and go look at SoOs mistakes in hindisght. An infestor with Pathogen Glands is exactly the same as an Infestor without it. The exact same unit. EXACT same unit. A CS Marine is nothing like a non-CS Marine. They have a HP difference.
The only difference PG makes is that the PG Infestor starts with Fungal ready, whilst the non-PG infestor has FUngal ready 20 seconds later. After that, they are equal units. Now, this 20 second window made a difference in this game. OK. That doesnt make SoO an idiot. It's so easy to look at the game with perfect information and with nothing to do but be critical of a players' every move. SoO made a decision: He did not want to pay 150/150 for a 20 second faster Fungal. I think he did that because the cost of Pathogen is immense when you only get a couple of Infestors you are planning on retaining. The 150/150 you pay for a one time 10 energy bonus is just not worth it to him as he is planning on having the Infestors for a long time.
It's closely related to nobody getting medivac energy. The amount of regeneration in the game is going to make the cost of Caduceus Reactor completely not worth it.
THIS. That's why energy upgrades shouldn't be all the same idiotic +25 initial energy and all units shouldn't have the same base energy regeneration. It's lazy design. Pathogen glands should also increase energy regeneration by 15%-25%. Here in HotS Fungal is nerfed, so it shouldn't be a problem. Each energy upgrade should be a little more distinctive. Because not all of them have a use by the time they are played.
Many energy upgrades are off time and simply not worth/not useful by the moment you can afford or start thinking about them. It's like the medivac upgrade in TvP and now also in TvZ (because mutas are much less played): by the time it seems more confortable to get (second starport) you have almost all your medivac fleet out and you'll be probably only losing a few of them in the case you don't repair, so it's simply not worth it unless the game plays out really tight and trades become frequent enough.
This kind of things have been suggested many times (compilation): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxDRbuMuVOfYYWxHUUdRZkpLZmM/view?usp=sharing
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DRG. It's always DRG. If DRG isn't good we have a sure sign that balance cannot be bad. He is only bad when Zerg is strong.
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On November 05 2014 00:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true? ByuL, Rogue, Sacsri, Dark
ByuL is at 70% - in series, he beat Major and Reality
Rogue is at 73% - in series, he beat Center twice, Innovation (2-0), Flash (2-0), Iaguz, and Journey
Sacsri is at 62.5% - in series, he beat Heromarine and ForGG and lost to Reality
Dark 40% - in series, he beat Byong and lost to Flash and TY
So from all this, we can say that Rogue had a good tournament at MSI and won 2 bo3 vs top Terrans.
There is a lot of data floating out there and a lot of numbers that make it easy to gravitate towards 50%, but the point I've been trying to make for the last few pages is that consistently, the top Terrans are beating the top Zergs, especially in Bo5s in big tournaments.
Innovation 71% - in series, he beat Hyun, soO, DRG, Life... (Petraeus, Snute)
Taeja 65.2% - in series, he beat, Hyun, soO, Jaedong (Violet, Petraeus, Xigua, Hendralisk)
Bomber 61% - in series, he beat Jaedong, DRG, Check, TRUE (Slam)
Besides just watching the games ... they just don't LOOK fair even.
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On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg.
Solar, Sacsri, soO, KangHo, Rogue all looking strong recently. I think Jaedong too has 50-50 chances in a rematch vs Bomber. I'd favor them all over MMA.
I'd favor soO (at least the form he was in before the last GSL finals) over Taeja normally, but he wasn't playing nearly at his usual standards at the Global Finals. Lots of people favored soO over Innovation in the WCS finals too. Jaedong surprised me with his performance (I honestly expected Bomber to win more easily) and Hyun hasn't really been known for strong ZvT in a long time. I think vs MMA / jjakji we would have seen any of the Global Final's Zergs (except maybe Hyun) win.
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On November 05 2014 01:11 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. Solar, Sacsri, soO, KangHo, Rogue all looking strong recently. I think Jaedong too has 50-50 chances in a rematch vs Bomber. I'd favor them all over MMA. I'd favor soO (at least the form he was in before the last GSL finals) over Taeja normally, but he wasn't playing nearly at his usual standards at the Global Finals. Lots of people favored soO over Innovation in the WCS finals too. Jaedong surprised me with his performance (I honestly expected Bomber to win more easily) and Hyun hasn't really been known for strong ZvT in a long time. I think vs MMA / jjakji we would have seen any of the Global Final's Zergs (except maybe Hyun) win.
Eh, maybe you're right? But it's going to take a lot more games to convince me. So far it looks pretty one sided.
Bomber always has a way of making series look way closer than they should be...like when he gifted Polt 10 Medivacs over 2 games...
This is why I keep advocating that Bo5 should be the real measure we use to look at balance. Much less subject to flukes. Remember when Protoss was dominating Proleague and Ladder but couldn't win a tournament to save its ass? It's the Bo1 effect.
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On November 05 2014 01:11 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. Solar, Sacsri, soO, KangHo, Rogue all looking strong recently. I think Jaedong too has 50-50 chances in a rematch vs Bomber. I'd favor them all over MMA. I'd favor soO (at least the form he was in before the last GSL finals) over Taeja normally, but he wasn't playing nearly at his usual standards at the Global Finals. Lots of people favored soO over Innovation in the WCS finals too. Jaedong surprised me with his performance (I honestly expected Bomber to win more easily) and Hyun hasn't really been known for strong ZvT in a long time. I think vs MMA / jjakji we would have seen any of the Global Final's Zergs (except maybe Hyun) win.
Bomber won very easily in g1. He threw g2 by doing a weird very delayed blue flame build after gasless 3CC that got scouted before the blue flame even started and then decided to still go through with defensive blue flame play instead of just playing a normal Mech or bio transition of an economic advantage.
In g3 he did a late scrappy delayed hellbat timing when his cloak was scouted which he canceled and threw down an armory instead and then let his natural get flooded with zerglings by needlessly having a depot down.
g4 he won with 2rax against that weird burrow roach "counter".
G5 he played normal again and won easily.
Bomber won every game in which he played a somewhat normal BO against Jaedong, in not even one game did Jaedong look strong.
I agree though that only fools were wasting their Bracket Contest Points on jjakji (jk).
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On November 05 2014 00:28 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true? They're good, but you wouldn't say oh, Solar is favored over Bomber or Innovation or Taeja or Maru. In fact I'd put my money on the Terran. Solar's ZvT is at 46% since the patch. TRUE is at 47%. Wait what TRUE has 47% winrate in zvt?
Did he actually learn how to play the match up at some point and I missed it?
Because the last I remember of him he was god awful at it.
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On November 05 2014 00:55 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 00:29 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true? ByuL, Rogue, Sacsri, Dark ByuL is at 70% - in series, he beat Major and Reality Rogue is at 73% - in series, he beat Center twice, Innovation (2-0), Flash (2-0), Iaguz, and Journey Sacsri is at 62.5% - in series, he beat Heromarine and ForGG and lost to Reality Dark 40% - in series, he beat Byong and lost to Flash and TY So from all this, we can say that Rogue had a good tournament at MSI and won 2 bo3 vs top Terrans. There is a lot of data floating out there and a lot of numbers that make it easy to gravitate towards 50%, but the point I've been trying to make for the last few pages is that consistently, the top Terrans are beating the top Zergs, especially in Bo5s in big tournaments. Innovation 71% - in series, he beat Hyun, soO, DRG, Life... (Petraeus, Snute) Taeja 65.2% - in series, he beat, Hyun, soO, Jaedong (Violet, Petraeus, Xigua, Hendralisk) Bomber 61% - in series, he beat Jaedong, DRG, Check, TRUE (Slam) Besides just watching the games ... they just don't LOOK fair even.
Players Scores Tournament
Polt vs viOLet 3 2 IEM Toronto Qualifiers
Center vs RagnaroK 0 3 Dragon #4 Invitational
Bogus vs Life 3 0 Destiny I
SalvatioN vs LosirA 0 3 Gisado 6
Bomber vs Jaedong 2 3 WEC 2014 Qualifiers
Polt vs viOLet 3 1 Red Bull Battlegrounds
TaeJa vs viOLet 3 1 IEM Toronto
Journey vs Revival 3 2 Olimo 5
YoDa vs HyuN 0 3 MSI Beat It EU Qualifiers
GuMiho vs Rogue 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers
Maru vs Dark 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers
Bbyong vs ByuL 3 0 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers
Bogus vs DRG 3 0 Code S
Cure vs Solar 3 1 Code S
FanTaSy vs Symbol 3 2 Gisado 9
GuMiho vs Rogue 1 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers
Journey vs ByuL 3 2 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers
MarineKing vs Armani 2 3 Olimo 7
KeeN vs RagnaroK 2 3 Leifeng 7
SuperNova vs Impact 0 3 Olimo Sept
Center vs Impact 4 2 Olimo Sept
Center vs Bboong 3 1 Leifeng 14
FanTaSy vs Armani 3 1 Olimo 8
Bogus vs soO 4 2 Code S
GuMiho vs LosirA 0 3 Leifeng 16
YoDa vs Golden 3 0 WCS EU
Miso vs Hydra 0 3 Leifeng 17
GuMiho vs Solar 3 0 Leifeng 20
MarineKing vs Impact 1 3 Olimo 9
Heart vs HyuN 3 1 WCS AM
Center vs Symbol 0 3 Leifeng 24
TY vs Dark 3 2 WECG
KeeN vs TRUE 0 3 Leifeng 27
Reality vs Sacsri 3 1 Against the Odds
Reality vs ByuL 3 4 Against the Odds
FanTaSy vs TRUE 2 3 Olimo Oct
Bogus vs HyuN 3 1 Blizzcon
TaeJa vs soO 3 1 Blizzcon
Bomber vs Jaedong 3 2 Blizzcon
YoDa vs Rogue ? 3 MSI Beat It
Total TvZ 85 80
BO5+ TvZs between Koreans recorded by hand from Aligulac since the last patch (any corrections welcome). The number of Terran wins can be up to 87 since no one knows how many maps YoDa took off Rogue. Voilà.
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On November 05 2014 01:38 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 00:55 DinoMight wrote:On November 05 2014 00:29 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2014 00:22 Meavis wrote:On November 05 2014 00:18 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, discussing the specifics of the Taeja vs. soO game based on perfect information and 3 days to analyze every little detail is pointless, at least as it relates to balance.
The way I see it is that Terran's early game options, made stronger by the Hellbat change, don't allow or too easily punish a Zerg who plays as greedy as he needs to in order to defeat the MMMM parade (due to how cost efficient that is).
IMO transformation servos needs to be added back in OR widow mine splash needs to come down a bit.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it's easy to see Bomber>Jaedong, Innovation>Hyun, and Taeja>soO and say "oh these Terrans are clearly favored" (and they are)... but when anytime a top Terran plays a top Zerg the Terran is favored, then you have a problem.
Who are the top Terrans right now?
Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, Maru, MMA?
I don't think there's a single Zerg I would outright favor or even pick to win over these guys in a Bo5. Sure, someone like Rogue may win the occasional qualifier but in terms of who would you bet your money on? It's hard to think of any game where I favor the Zerg. solar? true? ByuL, Rogue, Sacsri, Dark ByuL is at 70% - in series, he beat Major and Reality Rogue is at 73% - in series, he beat Center twice, Innovation (2-0), Flash (2-0), Iaguz, and Journey Sacsri is at 62.5% - in series, he beat Heromarine and ForGG and lost to Reality Dark 40% - in series, he beat Byong and lost to Flash and TY So from all this, we can say that Rogue had a good tournament at MSI and won 2 bo3 vs top Terrans. There is a lot of data floating out there and a lot of numbers that make it easy to gravitate towards 50%, but the point I've been trying to make for the last few pages is that consistently, the top Terrans are beating the top Zergs, especially in Bo5s in big tournaments. Innovation 71% - in series, he beat Hyun, soO, DRG, Life... (Petraeus, Snute) Taeja 65.2% - in series, he beat, Hyun, soO, Jaedong (Violet, Petraeus, Xigua, Hendralisk) Bomber 61% - in series, he beat Jaedong, DRG, Check, TRUE (Slam) Besides just watching the games ... they just don't LOOK fair even. Players Scores Tournament Polt vs viOLet 3 2 IEM Toronto Qualifiers Center vs RagnaroK 0 3 Dragon #4 Invitational Bogus vs Life 3 0 Destiny I SalvatioN vs LosirA 0 3 Gisado 6 Bomber vs Jaedong 2 3 WEC 2014 Qualifiers Polt vs viOLet 3 1 Red Bull Battlegrounds TaeJa vs viOLet 3 1 IEM Toronto Journey vs Revival 3 2 Olimo 5 YoDa vs HyuN 0 3 MSI Beat It EU Qualifiers GuMiho vs Rogue 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Maru vs Dark 2 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bbyong vs ByuL 3 0 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Bogus vs DRG 3 0 Code S Cure vs Solar 3 1 Code S FanTaSy vs Symbol 3 2 Gisado 9 GuMiho vs Rogue 1 3 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers Journey vs ByuL 3 2 MSI Beat It KR Qualifiers MarineKing vs Armani 2 3 Olimo 7 KeeN vs RagnaroK 2 3 Leifeng 7 SuperNova vs Impact 0 3 Olimo Sept Center vs Impact 4 2 Olimo Sept Center vs Bboong 3 1 Leifeng 14 FanTaSy vs Armani 3 1 Olimo 8 Bogus vs soO 4 2 Code S GuMiho vs LosirA 0 3 Leifeng 16 YoDa vs Golden 3 0 WCS EU Miso vs Hydra 0 3 Leifeng 17 GuMiho vs Solar 3 0 Leifeng 20 MarineKing vs Impact 1 3 Olimo 9 Heart vs HyuN 3 1 WCS AM Center vs Symbol 0 3 Leifeng 24 TY vs Dark 3 2 WECG KeeN vs TRUE 0 3 Leifeng 27 Reality vs Sacsri 3 1 Against the Odds Reality vs ByuL 3 4 Against the Odds FanTaSy vs TRUE 2 3 Olimo Oct Bogus vs HyuN 3 1 Blizzcon TaeJa vs soO 3 1 Blizzcon Bomber vs Jaedong 3 2 Blizzcon YoDa vs Rogue ? 3 MSI Beat It Total TvZ 85 80 BO5+ TvZs between Koreans recorded by hand from Aligulac since the last patch (any corrections welcome). The number of Terran wins can be up to 87 since no one knows how many maps YoDa took off Rogue. Voilà.
You've set different parameters than what I was talking about. I didn't say "all bo5 between Koreans."
My point is specific to TOP Terrans vs. TOP Zergs.
Keen vs. Ragnarok is not relevant to my argument (in fact any game with Keen...)
Miso vs. Hydra.
Center vs. Bbong.
Fantasy vs. Armani...
Marineking vs Armani.........
Etc.
Regardless of balance, the shittier the players, the more mistakes they make, the less balance is relevant. If I played you in a ZvT right now, the winner would have nothing to do with balance.
Perhaps we need to just wait and see if Terran continues to win a disproportionate amount of tournaments before we judge.
Also, can we talk about how Protoss is actually the one getting hosed lately?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/epv-chart-features.png)
