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On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion.
Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people:
"Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should)
"Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago)
"Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones)
I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing.
Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball.
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On November 04 2014 22:40 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface.
Yeah exactly. I understand the "learning" factor, but even then replays are way better for that regardless (if you can get em ofc).
But i don't think it is very exciting to be able to predict what happens only cause we have so much information available.
Why do you even watch the game then?
I kinda like to be surprised, it is just way more fun to see these 50 mutas pop out before you knew it cause of the production tab, but as i said, that seems to be an unpopular opinion here^^
On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball.
Yeah ok makes sense.
But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics.
Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X.
I rather just watch the game and see what happens 
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On November 04 2014 20:08 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 20:05 OtherWorld wrote:On November 04 2014 20:04 inken wrote:
Zerg: At the very top level, there's a slight imbalance (be it map pool or units) keeping the very best zerg from winning approximately as much big tournaments as the very best terran/toss.
Terran: At the Global Finals RO16, Hyun, Jaedong and soO didn't have a disadvantage due to a slight imbalance, they just aren't as good as Bomber, Innovation and Taeja. Proof: In the past, those zerg players didn't win as much big tournaments as the terran players.
Wtf is with this logic...? There's no logic in this thread other than "I lost/my favorite player lost to that so it's obviously as imba as BL-infestor/1-1-1/Blink Allin" Er.... Jaedong <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Bomber this year, I don't know how you want to argue against that. Hyun < Innovation, I don't know how you want to argue against that. SoO = Taeja, so there's nothing to be drawn from there.
Whilst I actually agree with those assessments that looks a little like "Terran is just BETTER" territory. ;P
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On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote:
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 :
===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research
- buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game)
- he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt
- Teaeja dies on that push
- soO wins the series
- desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind?
I am fairly certain SoO didn't get Pathogen Glands on purpose.
He didn't get it in game 2 or 3 despite getting infestors. I think the logic behind that is: Infestors do not die, do not take damage, and are terrible en masse. He shouldn't have to reproduce the infestors and as such, Pathogen Glands will increase the cost of his infestors by over 25% whilst not really benefiting him at all after 20 seconds...
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On November 04 2014 22:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:40 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface. Yeah exactly. I understand the "learning" factor, but even then replays are way better for that regardless (if you can get em ofc). But i don't think it is very exciting to be able to predict what happens only cause we have so much information available. Why do you even watch the game then? I kinda like to be surprised, it is just way more fun to see these 50 mutas pop out before you knew it cause of the production tab, but as i said, that seems to be an unpopular opinion here^^ Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens
I agree totally and wouldn't mind the data to be pushed to post game analysis.
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On November 04 2014 22:52 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 20:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 20:05 OtherWorld wrote:On November 04 2014 20:04 inken wrote:
Zerg: At the very top level, there's a slight imbalance (be it map pool or units) keeping the very best zerg from winning approximately as much big tournaments as the very best terran/toss.
Terran: At the Global Finals RO16, Hyun, Jaedong and soO didn't have a disadvantage due to a slight imbalance, they just aren't as good as Bomber, Innovation and Taeja. Proof: In the past, those zerg players didn't win as much big tournaments as the terran players.
Wtf is with this logic...? There's no logic in this thread other than "I lost/my favorite player lost to that so it's obviously as imba as BL-infestor/1-1-1/Blink Allin" Er.... Jaedong <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Bomber this year, I don't know how you want to argue against that. Hyun < Innovation, I don't know how you want to argue against that. SoO = Taeja, so there's nothing to be drawn from there. Whilst I actually agree with those assessments that looks a little like "Terran is just BETTER" territory. ;P
Yes, that'd obviously give room to LOLOLOLOL BEST ZERGS IN TOP 16 ALL WORSE THAN TERRAN IMBAIBMABMAMMAMA
But if you look at it, Jaedong, Hyun qualified mostly by traveling their butts off, not by having seriously high rankings (Hyun got 1, maybe 2, Jaedong EG Money'd himself to Blizzcon). Meanwhile, Bomber is on fucking fire (and hardly any mines were used that matchup, btw), Taeja collects trophies like they're candy at halloween and Innovation is THE mechanical master to look at, currently.
So no. Whilst I think there might be small problems in TvZ as a result of how cramped out maps look nowadays past 3 bases, these specific Terrans just got favorable matchups to these specific Zergs in this tournament.
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On November 04 2014 22:55 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 22:40 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface. Yeah exactly. I understand the "learning" factor, but even then replays are way better for that regardless (if you can get em ofc). But i don't think it is very exciting to be able to predict what happens only cause we have so much information available. Why do you even watch the game then? I kinda like to be surprised, it is just way more fun to see these 50 mutas pop out before you knew it cause of the production tab, but as i said, that seems to be an unpopular opinion here^^ On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens I agree totally and wouldn't mind the data to be pushed to post game analysis.
Mishinma, I really feel like you are taking every opportunity to shove this No Bars through our throats. Not for viewer experience, but because of your personal preference.
If none of you understand it is a silly thing to want the game to be 'tense' after it is clearly over. Why would you want that? To me it seems weird. If you enjoy the game being 'tense' all the time, turn off the video and only listen to certain casters hyping up 20 roach vs 80 roach battles like there is comeback potential for the 20 roach player.
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Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens
yeah, that's true. The game sometimes has those moments where you'd rather not know how lost a player already is.
Also information makes it easier to jump into games midway.
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On November 04 2014 23:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:55 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 22:40 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface. Yeah exactly. I understand the "learning" factor, but even then replays are way better for that regardless (if you can get em ofc). But i don't think it is very exciting to be able to predict what happens only cause we have so much information available. Why do you even watch the game then? I kinda like to be surprised, it is just way more fun to see these 50 mutas pop out before you knew it cause of the production tab, but as i said, that seems to be an unpopular opinion here^^ On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens I agree totally and wouldn't mind the data to be pushed to post game analysis. Mishinma, I really feel like you are taking every opportunity to shove this No Bars through our throats. Not for viewer experience, but because of your personal preference. If none of you understand it is a silly thing to want the game to be 'tense' after it is clearly over. Why would you want that? To me it seems weird. If you enjoy the game being 'tense' all the time, turn off the video and only listen to certain casters hyping up 20 roach vs 80 roach battles like there is comeback potential for the 20 roach player.
Nice strawman, i never said i want it to be "tense" after it is clearly over.
I just would like to "figure" it out on my own instead of looking at the one million datapoints we have these days.
So exciting to look at numbers and know who is ahead based on them.
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On November 04 2014 23:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens yeah, that's true. The game sometimes has those moments where you'd rather not know how lost a player already is. Also information makes it easier to jump into games midway.
Would be interesting to have live votes every few minutes in a game. "Who is ahead?" That would be interesting to see the audience's understanding of the game.
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On November 04 2014 23:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens yeah, that's true. The game sometimes has those moments where you'd rather not know how lost a player already is. Also information makes it easier to jump into games midway.
I mean i don't wanna say "remove ressources and supply count".
I actually like these stats too, but more than that? Nah not really.
This is all fine for pre game stuff though, don't get me wrong, i like some analysis too, but i don't see why we need it during the game tbh.
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On November 04 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote:
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 :
===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research
- buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game)
- he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt
- Teaeja dies on that push
- soO wins the series
- desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind? I am fairly certain SoO didn't get Pathogen Glands on purpose. He didn't get it in game 2 or 3 despite getting infestors. I think the logic behind that is: Infestors do not die, do not take damage, and are terrible en masse. He shouldn't have to reproduce the infestors and as such, Pathogen Glands will increase the cost of his infestors by over 25% whilst not really benefiting him at all after 20 seconds...
No. This reasonning is not good at all. not only he had like 8k mins and 3.5 k gaz in bank but also getting infest without pathogen galnd is just as bad as forgeting shield on marines.
He would have won game 3 with pathogen glands. jsut watch the 26 mins engagement and imagine 4 fungals to start things off.
you can have as many ultras as you want, if you allow marauders to kite you around and bring the fight into small chokes and narrow path, you will always loose.
soO has to know this. It's jsut that the games are extremely intense and he start his first infestors 10 mins after infestation pit, so he forgets to research it.
No one in his right mind can say "this games shows an imbalance" when an upgrade as important as fungal growth hasn't been researched...
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On November 04 2014 23:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:01 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 22:40 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface. Yeah exactly. I understand the "learning" factor, but even then replays are way better for that regardless (if you can get em ofc). But i don't think it is very exciting to be able to predict what happens only cause we have so much information available. Why do you even watch the game then? I kinda like to be surprised, it is just way more fun to see these 50 mutas pop out before you knew it cause of the production tab, but as i said, that seems to be an unpopular opinion here^^ On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens I agree totally and wouldn't mind the data to be pushed to post game analysis. Mishinma, I really feel like you are taking every opportunity to shove this No Bars through our throats. Not for viewer experience, but because of your personal preference. If none of you understand it is a silly thing to want the game to be 'tense' after it is clearly over. Why would you want that? To me it seems weird. If you enjoy the game being 'tense' all the time, turn off the video and only listen to certain casters hyping up 20 roach vs 80 roach battles like there is comeback potential for the 20 roach player. Nice strawman, i never said i want it to be "tense" after it is clearly over. I just would like to "figure" it out on my own instead of looking at the one million datapoints we have these days. So exciting to look at numbers and know who is ahead based on them.
There may be a difference in when I think it is over and when you think it is over.
Still, do you want to sacrifice 20 minutes of real time information and being able to spot some of the tiny nuances of the build because you think that is more fun? I like looking at games and seeing how they may go on. Look, SoO delays 1/1 for fast Spire, if Taeja doesn't do this or this he is in trouble. Is that turret almost done? How far in is Stim? I like that. What exactly is the information you all want to remove?
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On November 04 2014 23:24 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote:
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 :
===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research
- buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game)
- he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt
- Teaeja dies on that push
- soO wins the series
- desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind? I am fairly certain SoO didn't get Pathogen Glands on purpose. He didn't get it in game 2 or 3 despite getting infestors. I think the logic behind that is: Infestors do not die, do not take damage, and are terrible en masse. He shouldn't have to reproduce the infestors and as such, Pathogen Glands will increase the cost of his infestors by over 25% whilst not really benefiting him at all after 20 seconds... No. This reasonning is not good at all. not only he had like 8k mins and 3.5 k gaz in bank but also getting infest without pathogen galnd is just as bad as forgeting shield on marines. He would have won game 3 with pathogen glands. jsut watch the 26 mins engagement and imagine 4 fungals to start things off. you can have as many ultras as you want, if you allow marauders to kite you around and bring the fight into small chokes and narrow path, you will always loose. soO has to know this. It's jsut that the games are extremely intense and he start his first infestors 10 mins after infestation pit, so he forgets to research it. No one in his right mind can say "this games shows an imbalance" when an upgrade as important as fungal growth hasn't been researched...
You say my reasoning is no good at all and completely ignore my arguments and go look at SoOs mistakes in hindisght.
An infestor with Pathogen Glands is exactly the same as an Infestor without it. The exact same unit. EXACT same unit. A CS Marine is nothing like a non-CS Marine. They have a HP difference.
The only difference PG makes is that the PG Infestor starts with Fungal ready, whilst the non-PG infestor has FUngal ready 20 seconds later. After that, they are equal units.
Now, this 20 second window made a difference in this game. OK. That doesnt make SoO an idiot. It's so easy to look at the game with perfect information and with nothing to do but be critical of a players' every move.
SoO made a decision: He did not want to pay 150/150 for a 20 second faster Fungal. I think he did that because the cost of Pathogen is immense when you only get a couple of Infestors you are planning on retaining. The 150/150 you pay for a one time 10 energy bonus is just not worth it to him as he is planning on having the Infestors for a long time.
It's closely related to nobody getting medivac energy. The amount of regeneration in the game is going to make the cost of Caduceus Reactor completely not worth it.
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On November 04 2014 23:26 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 23:01 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 22:40 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface. Yeah exactly. I understand the "learning" factor, but even then replays are way better for that regardless (if you can get em ofc). But i don't think it is very exciting to be able to predict what happens only cause we have so much information available. Why do you even watch the game then? I kinda like to be surprised, it is just way more fun to see these 50 mutas pop out before you knew it cause of the production tab, but as i said, that seems to be an unpopular opinion here^^ On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens I agree totally and wouldn't mind the data to be pushed to post game analysis. Mishinma, I really feel like you are taking every opportunity to shove this No Bars through our throats. Not for viewer experience, but because of your personal preference. If none of you understand it is a silly thing to want the game to be 'tense' after it is clearly over. Why would you want that? To me it seems weird. If you enjoy the game being 'tense' all the time, turn off the video and only listen to certain casters hyping up 20 roach vs 80 roach battles like there is comeback potential for the 20 roach player. Nice strawman, i never said i want it to be "tense" after it is clearly over. I just would like to "figure" it out on my own instead of looking at the one million datapoints we have these days. So exciting to look at numbers and know who is ahead based on them. There may be a difference in when I think it is over and when you think it is over. Still, do you want to sacrifice 20 minutes of real time information and being able to spot some of the tiny nuances of the build because you think that is more fun? I like looking at games and seeing how they may go on. Look, SoO delays 1/1 for fast Spire, if Taeja doesn't do this or this he is in trouble. Is that turret almost done? How far in is Stim? I like that. What exactly is the information you all want to remove?
Isn't that the point of the observer and casters?
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On November 04 2014 23:34 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:24 Gwavajuice wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote:
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 :
===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research
- buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game)
- he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt
- Teaeja dies on that push
- soO wins the series
- desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind? I am fairly certain SoO didn't get Pathogen Glands on purpose. He didn't get it in game 2 or 3 despite getting infestors. I think the logic behind that is: Infestors do not die, do not take damage, and are terrible en masse. He shouldn't have to reproduce the infestors and as such, Pathogen Glands will increase the cost of his infestors by over 25% whilst not really benefiting him at all after 20 seconds... No. This reasonning is not good at all. not only he had like 8k mins and 3.5 k gaz in bank but also getting infest without pathogen galnd is just as bad as forgeting shield on marines. He would have won game 3 with pathogen glands. jsut watch the 26 mins engagement and imagine 4 fungals to start things off. you can have as many ultras as you want, if you allow marauders to kite you around and bring the fight into small chokes and narrow path, you will always loose. soO has to know this. It's jsut that the games are extremely intense and he start his first infestors 10 mins after infestation pit, so he forgets to research it. No one in his right mind can say "this games shows an imbalance" when an upgrade as important as fungal growth hasn't been researched... You say my reasoning is no good at all and completely ignore my arguments and go look at SoOs mistakes in hindisght. An infestor with Pathogen Glands is exactly the same as an Infestor without it. The exact same unit. EXACT same unit. A CS Marine is nothing like a non-CS Marine. They have a HP difference. The only difference PG makes is that the PG Infestor starts with Fungal ready, whilst the non-PG infestor has FUngal ready 20 seconds later. After that, they are equal units. Now, this 20 second window made a difference in this game. OK. That doesnt make SoO an idiot. It's so easy to look at the game with perfect information and with nothing to do but be critical of a players' every move. SoO made a decision: He did not want to pay 150/150 for a 20 second faster Fungal. I think he did that because the cost of Pathogen is immense when you only get a couple of Infestors you are planning on retaining. The 150/150 you pay for a one time 10 energy bonus is just not worth it to him as he is planning on having the Infestors for a long time. It's closely related to nobody getting medivac energy. The amount of regeneration in the game is going to make the cost of Caduceus Reactor completely not worth it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/470332-wcs-global-finals-2014-day-1?page=608#12149
(Just saying.)
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On November 04 2014 23:34 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:26 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 23:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 23:01 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 04 2014 22:40 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface. Yeah exactly. I understand the "learning" factor, but even then replays are way better for that regardless (if you can get em ofc). But i don't think it is very exciting to be able to predict what happens only cause we have so much information available. Why do you even watch the game then? I kinda like to be surprised, it is just way more fun to see these 50 mutas pop out before you knew it cause of the production tab, but as i said, that seems to be an unpopular opinion here^^ On November 04 2014 22:42 Big J wrote:On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh.
Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is.
I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail.
But i guess that is a controversial opinion. Meh, everytime the observer is hiding too much information from me I'm starting to stop caring about the game. If I can't see who has what it always feels stupid to watch, because then strategic decisions aren't comprehensible anymore. And it kills my passion to wrongly accuse people: "Why would you walk out like that?" (he actually lost more workers than he should) "Wtf, just sit back and defend!" (he actually stopped upgrading a long time ago) "Omg that guy is reinforcing badly!" (no he is not, he fucked up his BO and ended up with only 60drones) I prefer to judge players by the bullshit they do instead of by the bullshit I imagine them doing. Like in football, I also don't want to have them zoom in onto the players all the time and then have surprises where the pass goes. I want to be able to sit before the TV and yell at my girlfriend why the fuck that idiot didn't pass to the left when Immobile was unmarked and I want to have her scream back at me that they should have never bought that useless crap player to begin with and noone should ever give him the ball. Yeah ok makes sense. But to keep the football analogy, i feel we have the situation where you already know where the player will pass (70% to Immobile, 20% to Reus, etc) based on statistics. Or how big the probability is to score a goal from position X. I rather just watch the game and see what happens I agree totally and wouldn't mind the data to be pushed to post game analysis. Mishinma, I really feel like you are taking every opportunity to shove this No Bars through our throats. Not for viewer experience, but because of your personal preference. If none of you understand it is a silly thing to want the game to be 'tense' after it is clearly over. Why would you want that? To me it seems weird. If you enjoy the game being 'tense' all the time, turn off the video and only listen to certain casters hyping up 20 roach vs 80 roach battles like there is comeback potential for the 20 roach player. Nice strawman, i never said i want it to be "tense" after it is clearly over. I just would like to "figure" it out on my own instead of looking at the one million datapoints we have these days. So exciting to look at numbers and know who is ahead based on them. There may be a difference in when I think it is over and when you think it is over. Still, do you want to sacrifice 20 minutes of real time information and being able to spot some of the tiny nuances of the build because you think that is more fun? I like looking at games and seeing how they may go on. Look, SoO delays 1/1 for fast Spire, if Taeja doesn't do this or this he is in trouble. Is that turret almost done? How far in is Stim? I like that. What exactly is the information you all want to remove? Isn't that the point of the observer and casters?
You cannot ask observers and casters to perfectly keep track of 800 apm, each other, casting and hyping at the same time.
Your solution is to have one obs show the game with reduced information (whatever that means).
Then, there are going to be 2 casters that you force to keep track of this information, but also cast the game for you and stay in sync with the observer that you put in another situation with an entirely more difficult job in having to manually show even less important information?
You are talking about making production much harder, lower quality and more expensive for the sake of....
What exactly?
You haven't said why you want this change, nor have you said what changes you think of.
There's a reason your other thread isn't amongst the living anymore.
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On November 04 2014 23:36 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 23:24 Gwavajuice wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote:
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 :
===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research
- buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game)
- he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt
- Teaeja dies on that push
- soO wins the series
- desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind? I am fairly certain SoO didn't get Pathogen Glands on purpose. He didn't get it in game 2 or 3 despite getting infestors. I think the logic behind that is: Infestors do not die, do not take damage, and are terrible en masse. He shouldn't have to reproduce the infestors and as such, Pathogen Glands will increase the cost of his infestors by over 25% whilst not really benefiting him at all after 20 seconds... No. This reasonning is not good at all. not only he had like 8k mins and 3.5 k gaz in bank but also getting infest without pathogen galnd is just as bad as forgeting shield on marines. He would have won game 3 with pathogen glands. jsut watch the 26 mins engagement and imagine 4 fungals to start things off. you can have as many ultras as you want, if you allow marauders to kite you around and bring the fight into small chokes and narrow path, you will always loose. soO has to know this. It's jsut that the games are extremely intense and he start his first infestors 10 mins after infestation pit, so he forgets to research it. No one in his right mind can say "this games shows an imbalance" when an upgrade as important as fungal growth hasn't been researched... You say my reasoning is no good at all and completely ignore my arguments and go look at SoOs mistakes in hindisght. An infestor with Pathogen Glands is exactly the same as an Infestor without it. The exact same unit. EXACT same unit. A CS Marine is nothing like a non-CS Marine. They have a HP difference. The only difference PG makes is that the PG Infestor starts with Fungal ready, whilst the non-PG infestor has FUngal ready 20 seconds later. After that, they are equal units. Now, this 20 second window made a difference in this game. OK. That doesnt make SoO an idiot. It's so easy to look at the game with perfect information and with nothing to do but be critical of a players' every move. SoO made a decision: He did not want to pay 150/150 for a 20 second faster Fungal. I think he did that because the cost of Pathogen is immense when you only get a couple of Infestors you are planning on retaining. The 150/150 you pay for a one time 10 energy bonus is just not worth it to him as he is planning on having the Infestors for a long time. It's closely related to nobody getting medivac energy. The amount of regeneration in the game is going to make the cost of Caduceus Reactor completely not worth it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/470332-wcs-global-finals-2014-day-1?page=608#12149(Just saying.)
ok.
Pathogen Glands is 80 secs, Infestors 60.
So sorry, the fungal is 25 seconds faster.
On the other hand, the instant fungal infestor still has to walk where he as to go.
So I don't really know what you are trying to nitpick at....
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On November 04 2014 23:34 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 23:24 Gwavajuice wrote:On November 04 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote:
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 :
===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research
- buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game)
- he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt
- Teaeja dies on that push
- soO wins the series
- desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind? I am fairly certain SoO didn't get Pathogen Glands on purpose. He didn't get it in game 2 or 3 despite getting infestors. I think the logic behind that is: Infestors do not die, do not take damage, and are terrible en masse. He shouldn't have to reproduce the infestors and as such, Pathogen Glands will increase the cost of his infestors by over 25% whilst not really benefiting him at all after 20 seconds... No. This reasonning is not good at all. not only he had like 8k mins and 3.5 k gaz in bank but also getting infest without pathogen galnd is just as bad as forgeting shield on marines. He would have won game 3 with pathogen glands. jsut watch the 26 mins engagement and imagine 4 fungals to start things off. you can have as many ultras as you want, if you allow marauders to kite you around and bring the fight into small chokes and narrow path, you will always loose. soO has to know this. It's jsut that the games are extremely intense and he start his first infestors 10 mins after infestation pit, so he forgets to research it. No one in his right mind can say "this games shows an imbalance" when an upgrade as important as fungal growth hasn't been researched... You say my reasoning is no good at all and completely ignore my arguments and go look at SoOs mistakes in hindisght. An infestor with Pathogen Glands is exactly the same as an Infestor without it. The exact same unit. EXACT same unit. A CS Marine is nothing like a non-CS Marine. They have a HP difference. The only difference PG makes is that the PG Infestor starts with Fungal ready, whilst the non-PG infestor has FUngal ready 20 seconds later. After that, they are equal units. Now, this 20 second window made a difference in this game. OK. That doesnt make SoO an idiot. It's so easy to look at the game with perfect information and with nothing to do but be critical of a players' every move. SoO made a decision: He did not want to pay 150/150 for a 20 second faster Fungal. I think he did that because the cost of Pathogen is immense when you only get a couple of Infestors you are planning on retaining. The 150/150 you pay for a one time 10 energy bonus is just not worth it to him as he is planning on having the Infestors for a long time. It's closely related to nobody getting medivac energy. The amount of regeneration in the game is going to make the cost of Caduceus Reactor completely not worth it.
I never said he's an idiot Oo
It has nothing to do with medivac energy : medivac can always heal as soon as they get out, and by the time they get into a fight they re almost always maxed out.
Very rarely you have all your infestors with 100% energy.
When they have not enough energy for fungals infestors are just dead meat.
it's not 20 sec, it's 45 sec, it's huge deal.
watch the game again, you ll see that soO was just 2 fungals aways from wining between the 26th minuted and the 30 th minutes.
Even with HotS fungal nerf, getting infest without pathogen glands is a mistake that has consequences on the outcome of game when things are that close.
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EPT
