On November 04 2014 17:49 SatedSC2 wrote: Is there some sort of reason why 1/1 Roach into 2/2 Roach/Hydra isn't more popular?
Because outside of a map like Merry with a super open third, it's simply rather bad. It mostly relies on doing damage with the 1/1 Speedroaches push.
I thought it was more that you needed to deny the third with the Roaches rather than deal direct damage.
Indirect damage by delaying the third is guaranteed against certain builds (straight 3OC), but the Roach contain doesn't last forever; plus Zerg can actually be behind in eco during this time depending on the 1/1 Speedroaches variant he uses. For instance the hardcore one stops droning around 45-50 (= behind a 2b Terran with 3 MULEs) before building a lot of Roaches, then Terran claims his third when Zerg is droning up to 65-70 to support the hydra transition, etc. The Roaches/hydras push can be successful even with no SCV killed...
... but it's far from being guaranteed at all. You can also watch the VODs from Flash vs viOLet on Merry and Deadwing from the MSI Beat It tournament to see that.
Last but not least, the threat of Hellbat timings or simply Marines/Hellions attacks with a Medivac made the optimal opening - gasless 4 Queens - very risky for Zerg (e. g. Flash vs viOLet on King Sejong or Flash vs soO on the same map from the IEM Toronto qualifiers).
On November 04 2014 17:49 SatedSC2 wrote: Is there some sort of reason why 1/1 Roach into 2/2 Roach/Hydra isn't more popular?
Because outside of a map like Merry with a super open third, it's simply rather bad. It mostly relies on doing damage with the 1/1 Speedroaches push.
I thought it was more that you needed to deny the third with the Roaches rather than deal direct damage.
Indirect damage by delaying the third is guaranteed against certain builds (straight 3OC), but the Roach contain doesn't last forever; plus Zerg can actually be behind in eco during this time depending on the 1/1 Speedroaches variant he uses. For instance the hardcore one stops droning around 45-50 (= behind a 2b Terran with 3 MULEs) before building a lot of Roaches, then Terran claims his third when Zerg is droning up to 65-70 to support the hydra transition, etc. The Roaches/hydras push can be successful even with no SCV killed...
... but it's far from being guaranteed at all. You can also watch the VODs from Flash vs viOLet on Merry and Deadwing from the MSI Beat It tournament to see that.
Last but not least, the threat of Hellbat timings or simply Marines/Hellions attacks with a Medivac made the optimal opening - gasless 4 Queens - very risky for Zerg (e. g. Flash vs viOLet on King Sejong or Flash vs soO on the same map from the IEM Toronto qualifiers).
Youre posting game that is almost a year old. Terrans have figured out how to deal with this. Theres endless amount of games the last 2 months that show that. Seen violet get rekked? Why you think hyun doesn't do this anymore.
On November 04 2014 20:38 SatedSC2 wrote: I wasn't expecting it to be a guaranteed thing =P
Of course - what I meant is that Zerg is in a bad posture if the push fails, so the game plan in itself is risky (borderline all-in in many ways); unlike with lings/banes/mutas Terran has a much better lategame afterwards.
Not because I doubt what you're saying, but because I'd figure that a Roach opening would always do well vs. Hellion-based attacks.
The attacks hit before Roaches are out, so there are only 4 Queens to (not) defend them.
On November 04 2014 17:49 SatedSC2 wrote: Is there some sort of reason why 1/1 Roach into 2/2 Roach/Hydra isn't more popular?
Because outside of a map like Merry with a super open third, it's simply rather bad. It mostly relies on doing damage with the 1/1 Speedroaches push.
I thought it was more that you needed to deny the third with the Roaches rather than deal direct damage.
Indirect damage by delaying the third is guaranteed against certain builds (straight 3OC), but the Roach contain doesn't last forever; plus Zerg can actually be behind in eco during this time depending on the 1/1 Speedroaches variant he uses. For instance the hardcore one stops droning around 45-50 (= behind a 2b Terran with 3 MULEs) before building a lot of Roaches, then Terran claims his third when Zerg is droning up to 65-70 to support the hydra transition, etc. The Roaches/hydras push can be successful even with no SCV killed...
... but it's far from being guaranteed at all. You can also watch the VODs from Flash vs viOLet on Merry and Deadwing from the MSI Beat It tournament to see that.
Last but not least, the threat of Hellbat timings or simply Marines/Hellions attacks with a Medivac made the optimal opening - gasless 4 Queens - very risky for Zerg (e. g. Flash vs viOLet on King Sejong or Flash vs soO on the same map from the IEM Toronto qualifiers).
Youre posting game that is almost a year old. Terrans have figured out how to deal with this. Theres endless amount of games the last 2 months that show that. Seen violet get rekked? Why you think hyun doesn't do this anymore.
Huge facepalm. This is why I shouldn't even bother to post here.
On November 04 2014 17:49 SatedSC2 wrote: Is there some sort of reason why 1/1 Roach into 2/2 Roach/Hydra isn't more popular?
Because outside of a map like Merry with a super open third, it's simply rather bad. It mostly relies on doing damage with the 1/1 Speedroaches push.
I thought it was more that you needed to deny the third with the Roaches rather than deal direct damage.
Indirect damage by delaying the third is guaranteed against certain builds (straight 3OC), but the Roach contain doesn't last forever; plus Zerg can actually be behind in eco during this time depending on the 1/1 Speedroaches variant he uses. For instance the hardcore one stops droning around 45-50 (= behind a 2b Terran with 3 MULEs) before building a lot of Roaches, then Terran claims his third when Zerg is droning up to 65-70 to support the hydra transition, etc. The Roaches/hydras push can be successful even with no SCV killed...
... but it's far from being guaranteed at all. You can also watch the VODs from Flash vs viOLet on Merry and Deadwing from the MSI Beat It tournament to see that.
Last but not least, the threat of Hellbat timings or simply Marines/Hellions attacks with a Medivac made the optimal opening - gasless 4 Queens - very risky for Zerg (e. g. Flash vs viOLet on King Sejong or Flash vs soO on the same map from the IEM Toronto qualifiers).
Youre posting game that is almost a year old. Terrans have figured out how to deal with this. Theres endless amount of games the last 2 months that show that. Seen violet get rekked? Why you think hyun doesn't do this anymore.
Huge facepalm. This is why I shouldn't even bother to post here.
gues a GM zerg has no idea what his own race is capable of eh?
On November 04 2014 17:49 SatedSC2 wrote: Is there some sort of reason why 1/1 Roach into 2/2 Roach/Hydra isn't more popular?
Because outside of a map like Merry with a super open third, it's simply rather bad. It mostly relies on doing damage with the 1/1 Speedroaches push.
I thought it was more that you needed to deny the third with the Roaches rather than deal direct damage.
Indirect damage by delaying the third is guaranteed against certain builds (straight 3OC), but the Roach contain doesn't last forever; plus Zerg can actually be behind in eco during this time depending on the 1/1 Speedroaches variant he uses. For instance the hardcore one stops droning around 45-50 (= behind a 2b Terran with 3 MULEs) before building a lot of Roaches, then Terran claims his third when Zerg is droning up to 65-70 to support the hydra transition, etc. The Roaches/hydras push can be successful even with no SCV killed...
... but it's far from being guaranteed at all. You can also watch the VODs from Flash vs viOLet on Merry and Deadwing from the MSI Beat It tournament to see that.
Last but not least, the threat of Hellbat timings or simply Marines/Hellions attacks with a Medivac made the optimal opening - gasless 4 Queens - very risky for Zerg (e. g. Flash vs viOLet on King Sejong or Flash vs soO on the same map from the IEM Toronto qualifiers).
Youre posting game that is almost a year old. Terrans have figured out how to deal with this. Theres endless amount of games the last 2 months that show that. Seen violet get rekked? Why you think hyun doesn't do this anymore.
Huge facepalm. This is why I shouldn't even bother to post here.
gues a GM zerg has no idea what his own race is capable of eh?
No, but if you read the whole conversation since the beginning you'll understand why his answer is ridiculous.
Most zergs are abandoning the mass muta style, since its not as strong at it was before. A growing muta cloud was a reliable way to claim an advantage, now its not reliable at all. So i guess (just a guess) that is the reason for those agressive muta ling bane playstyles. Altough zerg is confortable in Hive late games, with proper economy, Its VERY hard to break a terran with huge production and securing planetaries, and you might not be able to do it before you get mined out and forced to take expansions that you are not supposed to. So if the terran plays as passively as it gets (terrans cannot really turtle with bio ofc) zergs are trying to damage the economy to avoid facing a rich terran in the late game. No huge muta cloud? then you must secure map control off creep and harass with banes and lings... With less mutas you do have money to make more ground army, TRUE and soO style.
On November 04 2014 20:43 Rainmansc wrote: \ Youre posting game that is almost a year old. Terrans have figured out how to deal with this. Theres endless amount of games the last 2 months that show that. Seen violet get rekked? Why you think hyun doesn't do this anymore.
Huge facepalm. This is why I shouldn't even bother to post here.
gues a GM zerg has no idea what his own race is capable of eh?
No, but if you read the whole conversation since the beginning you'll understand why his answer is ridiculous.
Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 : ===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research - buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game) - he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt - Teaeja dies on that push - soO wins the series - desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Information overload refers to the difficulty a person can have understanding an issue and making decisions that can be caused by the presence of too much information.
I agree, the observing was sub-par.
Back in brood war days, the observer just knew when the tech was being planted (usually when engagements settled down on the map).
On November 04 2014 22:03 mishimaBeef wrote: Information overload refers to the difficulty a person can have understanding an issue and making decisions that can be caused by the presence of too much information.
I agree, the observing was sub-par.
Back in brood war days, the observer just knew when the tech was being planted (usually when engagements settled down on the map).
The interface is subpar. Production should always be shown. Upgrades should always be shown. Worker/Army should always be shown. Minerals/Gas should always be shown There are already interfaces that do this.
I would like to add income rate (tells about a player's production capability), total minerals/gas mined (tells about the state of a player's side of the map), and resources lost (tells about a player's battle efficiency).
However, observing (screen time) and interface (data) are separate issues. Is there a producer coaching the observer?
On November 04 2014 22:03 mishimaBeef wrote: Information overload refers to the difficulty a person can have understanding an issue and making decisions that can be caused by the presence of too much information.
I agree, the observing was sub-par.
Back in brood war days, the observer just knew when the tech was being planted (usually when engagements settled down on the map).
The interface is subpar. Production should always be shown. Upgrades should always be shown. Worker/Army should always be shown. Minerals/Gas should always be shown There are already interfaces that do this.
I would like to add income rate (tells about a player's production capability), total minerals/gas mined (tells about the state of a player's side of the map), and resources lost (tells about a player's battle efficiency).
However, observing (screen time) and interface (data) are separate issues. Is there a producer coaching the observer?
The observer had been observing for over 12 hours straight at that point.
I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh. Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is. I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail. But i guess that is a controversial opinion.
On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh. Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is. I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail. But i guess that is a controversial opinion.
this is like saying "i don't want to understand what's happening in the movie i'm watching because then the plot will make sense too soon"
On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh. Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is. I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail. But i guess that is a controversial opinion.
this is like saying "i don't want to understand what's happening in the movie i'm watching because then the plot will make sense too soon"
On November 04 2014 22:03 mishimaBeef wrote: Information overload refers to the difficulty a person can have understanding an issue and making decisions that can be caused by the presence of too much information.
I agree, the observing was sub-par.
Back in brood war days, the observer just knew when the tech was being planted (usually when engagements settled down on the map).
The interface is subpar. Production should always be shown. Upgrades should always be shown. Worker/Army should always be shown. Minerals/Gas should always be shown There are already interfaces that do this.
I would like to add income rate (tells about a player's production capability), total minerals/gas mined (tells about the state of a player's side of the map), and resources lost (tells about a player's battle efficiency).
However, observing (screen time) and interface (data) are separate issues. Is there a producer coaching the observer?
The observer had been observing for over 12 hours straight at that point.
Then get more observers. This is Blizzcon, not some weekend tournament.
On November 04 2014 22:03 mishimaBeef wrote: Information overload refers to the difficulty a person can have understanding an issue and making decisions that can be caused by the presence of too much information.
I agree, the observing was sub-par.
Back in brood war days, the observer just knew when the tech was being planted (usually when engagements settled down on the map).
The interface is subpar. Production should always be shown. Upgrades should always be shown. Worker/Army should always be shown. Minerals/Gas should always be shown There are already interfaces that do this.
I would like to add income rate (tells about a player's production capability), total minerals/gas mined (tells about the state of a player's side of the map), and resources lost (tells about a player's battle efficiency).
However, observing (screen time) and interface (data) are separate issues. Is there a producer coaching the observer?
The observer had been observing for over 12 hours straight at that point.
Then get more observers. This is Blizzcon, not some weekend tournament.
pretty funny they managed to fuck that up when you look at the ratio of personality's to players
On November 04 2014 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't understand why you wanna have that much information while watching sc2 tbh. Sure, if you wanna understand the buildorders it might be better, but from a "excitement" POV the more information you have the less exciting the game is. I don't wanna know how the game ends minutes before it actually does, cause i can see every little detail. But i guess that is a controversial opinion.
In the past, I used to watch a lot for learning newer and better builds. In that case I might want the data. Now, I enjoy the matches and I would be pleased with a Brood War interface.
On November 04 2014 22:00 Gwavajuice wrote: Okay I have the solution to the blatant imblance that was dispayed in Taeja vs soO game 3 : ===> Balance Fix :
- remove pathogen glands research - buff the infestor base energy by 25
===> That way :
- soO can't friggin' forget to research pathogen gland (for the whole game) - he can use his 4 infestors during the 26 min mark engagementt - Teaeja dies on that push - soO wins the series - desperate zergs don't come on this thread to whine about balance
I m serious, WCS game heart is suck and the observer doesn't always show production tab and never does she show the upgrade tab, BUT not a single time in the game you can see pathogen gland being researched and given it's a 80 sec upgrade I think we should have at least seen a glimpse of it if soO had researched it.
Casters don''t realize this, Artosis just says "pathogen glands must have been mis-timed" but I m almost 100% sure it was never resarched in the first place.
If I m right it's really the major reason why soO lost that game.
Or am I blind?
Whoa, i looked at the recent discussion and realized that the topic was TvZ, with a focus on that Taeja vs soO game 3... So i gave my 2cents. Then i saw your post and got confused. The balance whine is around 10 pages behind, its better if we don't give much attention to tournament result vents. But i like your suggestion, it helps zerg getting infestors earlier, but they won't be any stronger. Late game the cost for pathogen glands is not as relevant, and zerg can wait forever until the research is done if they want to use them with ultras or broods, so its also not a big late game buff if we talk about timings. It would also improve ZvZ, but protoss do need some compensation.
EPT
