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On November 04 2014 08:14 SC2Toastie wrote:
Just saw Taeja v SoO.
I'd haven't read up on this thread, but I assume there is hefty discussion over this series and how Taeja in the lategame managed to expertly abuse the fact Zerg seemingly has NO way of breaking a highground turtling Terran.
Anybody who can TL;DR the discussion of the last couple of pages for me?
It's been people posting win rates back and forth and talking about how T>Z and TheDwf pointing out all the mistakes that soO made in that series and implying everything is balanced.
So basically the usual.
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Netherlands5725 Posts
On November 04 2014 08:23 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 08:14 SC2Toastie wrote:
Just saw Taeja v SoO.
I'd haven't read up on this thread, but I assume there is hefty discussion over this series and how Taeja in the lategame managed to expertly abuse the fact Zerg seemingly has NO way of breaking a highground turtling Terran.
Anybody who can TL;DR the discussion of the last couple of pages for me? It's been people posting win rates back and forth and talking about how T>Z and TheDwf pointing out all the mistakes that soO made in that series. So basically the usual.
That little jab at TheDwf isn't really cool.
SoO made mistakes, certainly. Some were dumb, like wasting 25 banelings on a Thor just outside of your essential fifth on Overgrowth. Getting dried out on Gas on Nimbus. Some were less big.
It's obviously easy to go back to a game and point out every. single. mistake a player made. That's a bit of a poor way to determine balance, in my opinion. Obviously, if you put the scope on one player and that player lost, you're going to find mistakes. You might wonder, how easy is it to make mistakes and how hard are these mistakes punished?
A problem I noticed had to do with maps and Zergs complete and total lack of ranged support units.
SoO was able to easily close down games 2 and 3, whilst in game 1, the same problem popped up. Taeja lost his foothold by taking poor engagements, and decided to start turtling on his fourth base with a planetary and a tight choke to highground. Taeja was behind in those situations because of big mistakes he made. He was not punished, however. Soo was unable to break these high ground positions, because the Zerg army is A) weak to splash (Mines, Thors), B) Melee range and C) too slow to effectively engage off-creep.
The only thing Soo could do when he was ahead was sit around and hope Taeja messed up. You can simply not attack a fortified highground position with a Muta Ling Bane (Ultra) army. The only way to succesfully break such a position is by getting Broodlords. Taeja made sure to scan the Spire often enough and have Starports prepared. HotS broodlords suck and always lose to a prepared Terran, so SoO didn't even attempt going there.
IMO, SoO deserved that match more than Taeja and Taeja had the map pool in his favor and abused certain advantages given to him very well.
That being said, Taeja played really well too. I just feel like SoO played better.
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On November 04 2014 08:32 SC2Toastie wrote:
That little jab at TheDwf isn't really cool.
I mean, is it a jab? Or just facts?
I guess you could see it that way  but I didn't mean anything too serious by it.
On November 04 2014 08:32 SC2Toastie wrote:
HotS broodlords suck and always lose to a prepared Terran, so SoO didn't even attempt going there.
IMO, SoO deserved that match more than Taeja and Taeja had the map pool in his favor and abused certain advantages given to him very well.
That being said, Taeja played really well too. I just feel like SoO played better.
I actually agree with that statement. I think it's rather naive to say "soO should have just made Brood Lords." Taeja scanned multiple times and would have been ready. I think soO weighed the options and figured he'd rather try and brute force it than switch into Brood Lords and get countered.
I love Taeja but it just seems that Zerg needs to work a bit harder to win than T does. To the point where in my Blizzcon bracket I just said + Show Spoiler +"fuck it, Terran will win every TvZ."
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Netherlands5725 Posts
On November 04 2014 09:17 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 08:32 SC2Toastie wrote:
That little jab at TheDwf isn't really cool.
I mean, is it a jab? Or just facts? I guess you could see it that way but I didn't mean anything too serious by it. Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 08:32 SC2Toastie wrote:
HotS broodlords suck and always lose to a prepared Terran, so SoO didn't even attempt going there.
IMO, SoO deserved that match more than Taeja and Taeja had the map pool in his favor and abused certain advantages given to him very well.
That being said, Taeja played really well too. I just feel like SoO played better. I actually agree with that statement. I think it's rather naive to say "soO should have just made Brood Lords." Taeja scanned multiple times and would have been ready. I think soO weighed the options and figured he'd rather try and brute force it than switch into Brood Lords and get countered. I love Taeja but it just seems that Zerg needs to work a bit harder to win than T does. To the point where in my Blizzcon bracket I just said + Show Spoiler +"fuck it, Terran will win every TvZ." And they did.
Well, predicting Innovation over Hyun isn't anything special and it's not like Taeja was an underdog either...
Zerg is really powerful in the early lategame, but the combination of maps, positions and the very defensive play from Taeja made SoO look optionless.
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Who in their right mind would pick soO over Taeja anyways? Apparently four 2nd place finishes makes you something other than just another marineking flash in the pan player these days? Taeja is a champ who doesnt give a damn about no 2nd place finishers. SoO lost because he got outplayed straight up.
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On November 04 2014 09:17 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 08:32 SC2Toastie wrote:
That little jab at TheDwf isn't really cool.
I mean, is it a jab? Or just facts? I guess you could see it that way but I didn't mean anything too serious by it. Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 08:32 SC2Toastie wrote:
HotS broodlords suck and always lose to a prepared Terran, so SoO didn't even attempt going there.
IMO, SoO deserved that match more than Taeja and Taeja had the map pool in his favor and abused certain advantages given to him very well.
That being said, Taeja played really well too. I just feel like SoO played better. I actually agree with that statement. I think it's rather naive to say "soO should have just made Brood Lords." Taeja scanned multiple times and would have been ready. I think soO weighed the options and figured he'd rather try and brute force it than switch into Brood Lords and get countered. I love Taeja but it just seems that Zerg needs to work a bit harder to win than T does. To the point where in my Blizzcon bracket I just said + Show Spoiler +"fuck it, Terran will win every TvZ." And they did.
Bomber > Jaedong
Taeja > SoO
Innovation > Hyun
Easily.
Not quite sure how you could possibly make a balance argument based off the outcomes of those 3 matches. Any other result would have been an upset and that has nothing to do with balance.
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On November 04 2014 09:43 johnbongham wrote:
Who in their right mind would pick soO over Taeja anyways? Apparently four 2nd place finishes makes you something other than just another marineking flash in the pan player these days? Taeja is a champ who doesnt give a damn about no 2nd place finishers. SoO lost because he got outplayed straight up.
I can imagine someone not watching KR at all and foolishly thinking this, but after watching that series? You're insane. MKP has dreams about dreaming of having soO's game sense and macro.
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On November 04 2014 09:43 johnbongham wrote:
Who in their right mind would pick soO over Taeja anyways? Apparently four 2nd place finishes makes you something other than just another marineking flash in the pan player these days? Taeja is a champ who doesnt give a damn about no 2nd place finishers. SoO lost because he got outplayed straight up.
HAHAHA
soO has been to 4 consecutive GSL finals.
This isn't some scrub that got lucky. He's the best Zerg player in the world by a wide margin. The list of players I would favor over him is VERY short, and they're all Terrans.
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Netherlands5725 Posts
Just don't take the bait. Just don't.
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On November 04 2014 09:59 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 09:43 johnbongham wrote:
Who in their right mind would pick soO over Taeja anyways? Apparently four 2nd place finishes makes you something other than just another marineking flash in the pan player these days? Taeja is a champ who doesnt give a damn about no 2nd place finishers. SoO lost because he got outplayed straight up. HAHAHA soO has been to 4 consecutive GSL finals. This isn't some scrub that got lucky. He's the best Zerg player in the world by a wide margin. The list of players I would favor over him is VERY short, and they're all Terrans.
Dude, he got 2nd place 4 times in a row. He is good, but he is NOT a champ and def not favored vs Taeja. You really think a guy who can't close out a single tournament in his favor is favored vs a guy whose reputation is the exact opposite?
Seriously am I dreaming? Even if you think soO is the best zerg in the world, you can't deny that him losing to Taeja literally means nothing as far as balance is concerned. Taeja outplayed soO just like he does anyone else - like a champ.
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On November 04 2014 09:59 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 09:43 johnbongham wrote:
Who in their right mind would pick soO over Taeja anyways? Apparently four 2nd place finishes makes you something other than just another marineking flash in the pan player these days? Taeja is a champ who doesnt give a damn about no 2nd place finishers. SoO lost because he got outplayed straight up. HAHAHA soO has been to 4 consecutive GSL finals. This isn't some scrub that got lucky. He's the best Zerg player in the world by a wide margin. The list of players I would favor over him is VERY short, and they're all Terrans.
Doesn't Taeja have the most trophies out of anyone in SC2 right now?
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On November 04 2014 09:59 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 09:43 johnbongham wrote:
Who in their right mind would pick soO over Taeja anyways? Apparently four 2nd place finishes makes you something other than just another marineking flash in the pan player these days? Taeja is a champ who doesnt give a damn about no 2nd place finishers. SoO lost because he got outplayed straight up. HAHAHA soO has been to 4 consecutive GSL finals. This isn't some scrub that got lucky. He's the best Zerg player in the world by a wide margin. The list of players I would favor over him is VERY short, and they're all Terrans.
So Zest, Solar, Classic are players who aren't better? Also what terrans besides Inno and Taeja? I don't think any terran can defeat soO, Bomber maybe but I wouldn't bet on it if it ever happens.
Also despite not really liking Taeja myself, he has defeated players like Zest, Solar and Innovation, who are among the best of their race, he has proven that he has what it takes to take down GSL champions
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On November 04 2014 12:43 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 09:59 DinoMight wrote:On November 04 2014 09:43 johnbongham wrote:
Who in their right mind would pick soO over Taeja anyways? Apparently four 2nd place finishes makes you something other than just another marineking flash in the pan player these days? Taeja is a champ who doesnt give a damn about no 2nd place finishers. SoO lost because he got outplayed straight up. HAHAHA soO has been to 4 consecutive GSL finals. This isn't some scrub that got lucky. He's the best Zerg player in the world by a wide margin. The list of players I would favor over him is VERY short, and they're all Terrans. So Zest, Solar, Classic are players who aren't better? Also what terrans besides Inno and Taeja? I don't think any terran can defeat soO, Bomber maybe but I wouldn't bet on it if it ever happens. Also despite not really liking Taeja myself, he has defeated players like Zest, Solar and Innovation, who are among the best of their race, he has proven that he has what it takes to take down GSL champions
I'm not saying these are players that "can beat" soO. Many players can beat soO.
I was talking about players that going into the game I distinctly favor over soO. There are very few of those.
Zest, Classic, Innovation, and Solar have all beaten soO in tournament finals, yes. But of those I would only say that Innovation is favored going into it. Many people saw Solar > soO as an upset and soO vs. Zest I think is quite even. As for Classic - I think he played well and beat soO in that finals but you have to realize they are teammates and there is a ton of metagaming going on. SoO has been much more consistent than Classic this year as well.
And yeah, Taeja is not really a huge fan favorite other than in the TL fanboy crowd mostly because he has the personality of a potato, but his playing is amazing and he's obviously a world class Terran.
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Is anyone seriously surprised that 4m is beating zerg again? Outside of like two zergs pre nerf it just wasn't beaten when properly executed. Now that Thors have been buffed up as well I don't know why anyone expects zergs to just start winning all of a sudden
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Taeja also has moments where he walks into tournaments looking like the best player on the planet, his games vs soO we're pretty incredible.
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Frankly, soO went 50% in macro games. The first and last games had devastating mistakes very early on.
We really didn't see many Zerg options explored in the late game, soO chose a style and stuck to it. Can you really start making calls about late game balance off of a single lost game?
There were no tech switches or instant remaxes. In fact he played the game like he was the one under pressure to end things when the reverse should have been true. Does soO really need to break Taejas fortified planetaries off creep or could he have simply banked resources and larva?
We have been working under the assumption that Terran has a weak lategame against Zerg since the early days of WoL. If you seriously think that lategame TvZ is imbalanced in favor of Terran you should reconsider your opinion.
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Taeja plays super GM level TvZ. Soo probably engaged too much off creep.
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On November 04 2014 12:57 bo1b wrote:
Is anyone seriously surprised that 4m is beating zerg again? Outside of like two zergs pre nerf it just wasn't beaten when properly executed. Now that Thors have been buffed up as well I don't know why anyone expects zergs to just start winning all of a sudden
Never forget DRG and whirlwind!
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Stop bassing balance on one matchup. I betted on Soo winning aswell, maybe he just had an off day.
Overall i do agree that terrans received to many buffs. I play terran and protoss, overall i feel that TvX just got a lot easier after last patch.
I don't see why blizzard can't take it one correction at a time and always come up with multiple changes at once.
I feel from what i seen on GSL mostly that mines and medivacs are to strong atm, one of them needs to be rethinked, cause it is not normal to see someone droping effectively on this high level play with 5-6 medivacs on top of 6-8 blink stalkers and 2 cannons. It just shouldn't be possible like this.
Second thing i read a lot is how mech isn't viable, which might not be compleatly true. It's just a common sense thou of "why would anyone go mech in TvX for 10-15% of frontal firepover and give away 300% of mobility ? " No one would, thats why we don't see mech in first place.
And it is same thing in TvZ now also, there is no point to go mech anymore when you have acess to hellbats that are bio extension and you have acess to buffed mines, why build tanks one at a time when you can pump other 2 units out 2 at a time and they are even more effective than a tank?
Thats why i think this buffs and nerfs for the matter are happening to much all over the whole board instead one at a time.
When you have "imba" matchup at GSL at TvZ or any other the win ratio is still like 60%-40% in the favor of the one or another, if you make to many changes at once your just flipping the table instead of fixing the issue.
good day, svizcy
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On November 04 2014 13:45 691175002 wrote:
Frankly, soO went 50% in macro games. The first and last games had devastating mistakes very early on.
We really didn't see many Zerg options explored in the late game, soO chose a style and stuck to it. Can you really start making calls about late game balance off of a single lost game?
There were no tech switches or instant remaxes. In fact he played the game like he was the one under pressure to end things when the reverse should have been true. Does soO really need to break Taejas fortified planetaries off creep or could he have simply banked resources and larva?
We have been working under the assumption that Terran has a weak lategame against Zerg since the early days of WoL. If you seriously think that lategame TvZ is imbalanced in favor of Terran you should reconsider your opinion.
No, not "we have been working under the assumption". It's totally ridiculous to say we have been doing that "since the early days of WoL". Lategame wasn't even figured out and as I recall Terran had winrates beyond the 60 and 70 percentages. You are not going to create a fake history in which Zerg had greater winrates than Terran in the lategame back in those days.
This is the only somewhat reliable statistic that tries to analyze the situation and it shows that of all the back and forth advantages the one Terran has past 35mins is the biggest one.
The periode that we usually call the lategame after 20mins is the most balanced one. While before that Terran has an advantage and in the early game Zerg has an advantage. And Terran rules the endgame.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/greCZI2.png)
The only reason why Terrans believe that lategame is in Zergs favor is that coming out of the midgame the game becomes compareably harder for them - which is not imbalanced. It would be imbalanced if the game stayed in Terrans favor like that.
Also since you are suggesting that soO shouldn't attack, what should be his plan? Taeja was about to take a 6th base when he tried to make something happen. So letting the Terran freely expand to 6bases shouldn't be contested in your eyes. OK, so when does he contest Taeja? When he takes the 7th base? The 8th? The 9th? Ever?
What is that lategame advantage you dream up? Did they change the rules of the game that Zerg doesn't have to kill the opponent anymore and that is why you say soO doesn't need to kill the Terran to win?
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EPT
