On November 04 2014 15:09 Svizcy wrote: Stop bassing balance on one matchup. I betted on Soo winning aswell, maybe he just had an off day. Overall i do agree that terrans received to many buffs. I play terran and protoss, overall i feel that TvX just got a lot easier after last patch.
I don't see why blizzard can't take it one correction at a time and always come up with multiple changes at once.
I feel from what i seen on GSL mostly that mines and medivacs are to strong atm, one of them needs to be rethinked, cause it is not normal to see someone droping effectively on this high level play with 5-6 medivacs on top of 6-8 blink stalkers and 2 cannons. It just shouldn't be possible like this.
Second thing i read a lot is how mech isn't viable, which might not be compleatly true. It's just a common sense thou of "why would anyone go mech in TvX for 10-15% of frontal firepover and give away 300% of mobility ? " No one would, thats why we don't see mech in first place.
And it is same thing in TvZ now also, there is no point to go mech anymore when you have acess to hellbats that are bio extension and you have acess to buffed mines, why build tanks one at a time when you can pump other 2 units out 2 at a time and they are even more effective than a tank?
Thats why i think this buffs and nerfs for the matter are happening to much all over the whole board instead one at a time. When you have "imba" matchup at GSL at TvZ or any other the win ratio is still like 60%-40% in the favor of the one or another, if you make to many changes at once your just flipping the table instead of fixing the issue.
good day, svizcy
Mech seems to be viable and really strong if you get to the late game. I´m basing this on seeing Gumiho shitting on zerg´s with his mass ravens/tanks/thor composition. This means that every game is really long but it´s really difficult to lose with that composition and Gumiho shows that it´s not "impossible" to get to that super army.
As a Terran player even I will admit that the map pool is Terran favored at the highest level of play in TvZ. especially since you don't see zerg all ins working vs top players the way they used to. It seems pro terrans after years of dying to baneling allins, roach allins, and roach bane allins have figured out alot of the moves necessary to scout and then hold allin play from zerg (well and widow mine buff helps) . Since allot of allin zerg plays arn't particularly high skill cap when their solved theirs not alot zerg can do to improve them so at the highest level of play this has a really big impact on the game. Combine this with a Terran favored map-pool with alot of chokes for Terran to camp in and this results in Terran whining sets like Soo vs Taeja.
Before this issues was counterbalanced by the fact terran had no way to kill mass mutas so they were unable to sit in these chokes without worry of their base being backstabed by a pack of 40 mutas but the thor and widow mine changes resolved this so terran can abuse terrain more.
It is a fair point however that Soo did not take extractors at his 6th and 7th bases in game 3 and took some bad engages off a creep, I think if he had had more gas he could have made more banes and that would have really helped in some of the last engagements.
I don't think that this problem is nerf worthy as a different map pool could really shift the map back towards zerg favor especially one with more open 3rds and 4ths and greater distances between bases. Its primarily a map balance issue; maybe some of it has to do with map architectures needed to stop blink allins and keep zvp balanced being poor for zvt balance.
On November 04 2014 17:27 washikie wrote: As a Terran player even I will admit that the map pool is Terran favored at the highest level of play in TvZ. especially since you don't see zerg all ins working vs top players the way they used to. It seems pro terrans after years of dying to baneling allins, roach allins, and roach bane allins have figured out alot of the moves necessary to scout and then hold allin play from zerg (well and widow mine buff helps) . Since allot of allin zerg plays arn't particularly high skill cap when their solved theirs not alot zerg can do to improve them so at the highest level of play this has a really big impact on the game. Combine this with a Terran favored map-pool with alot of chokes for Terran to camp in and this results in Terran whining sets like Soo vs Taeja.
Before this issues was counterbalanced by the fact terran had no way to kill mass mutas so they were unable to sit in these chokes without worry of their base being backstabed by a pack of 40 mutas but the thor and widow mine changes resolved this so terran can abuse terrain more.
It is a fair point however that Soo did not take extractors at his 6th and 7th bases in game 3 and took some bad engages off a creep, I think if he had had more gas he could have made more banes and that would have really helped in some of the last engagements.
I don't think that this problem is nerf worthy as a different map pool could really shift the map back towards zerg favor especially one with more open 3rds and 4ths and greater distances between bases. Its primarily a map balance issue; maybe some of it has to do with map architectures needed to stop blink allins and keep zvp balanced being poor for zvt balance.
yeah. ZvT is all about Zerg turtling through the 3-4base aggression, counterattacking and then eventually punishing the Terran for burning through most of his bases with mules, while the Zerg is still mining from 3bases. Maps like Nimbus or Deadwing - unless being played cross - make that incredibly hard given how hard counterattacks and how easy 4th and 5th bases are. While when being played cross these maps might not even be bad for Zerg.
On November 04 2014 17:27 washikie wrote: As a Terran player even I will admit that the map pool is Terran favored at the highest level of play in TvZ. especially since you don't see zerg all ins working vs top players the way they used to. It seems pro terrans after years of dying to baneling allins, roach allins, and roach bane allins have figured out alot of the moves necessary to scout and then hold allin play from zerg (well and widow mine buff helps) . Since allot of allin zerg plays arn't particularly high skill cap when their solved theirs not alot zerg can do to improve them so at the highest level of play this has a really big impact on the game. Combine this with a Terran favored map-pool with alot of chokes for Terran to camp in and this results in Terran whining sets like Soo vs Taeja.
Before this issues was counterbalanced by the fact terran had no way to kill mass mutas so they were unable to sit in these chokes without worry of their base being backstabed by a pack of 40 mutas but the thor and widow mine changes resolved this so terran can abuse terrain more.
It is a fair point however that Soo did not take extractors at his 6th and 7th bases in game 3 and took some bad engages off a creep, I think if he had had more gas he could have made more banes and that would have really helped in some of the last engagements.
I don't think that this problem is nerf worthy as a different map pool could really shift the map back towards zerg favor especially one with more open 3rds and 4ths and greater distances between bases. Its primarily a map balance issue; maybe some of it has to do with map architectures needed to stop blink allins and keep zvp balanced being poor for zvt balance.
yeah. ZvT is all about Zerg turtling through the 3-4base aggression, counterattacking and then eventually punishing the Terran for burning through most of his bases with mules, while the Zerg is still mining from 3bases. Maps like Nimbus or Deadwing - unless being played cross - make that incredibly hard given how hard counterattacks and how easy 4th and 5th bases are. While when being played cross these maps might not even be bad for Zerg.
Thing his soO believed a lot in his mass bane/gling with 8 mutas style.
I wonder what he's thinking now : did he loose because of bad shape or will he need to adpat and be more creative?
While it is true, that the map pool is a relict of season 2 experience and thus in T favour, more open 3rd and 4th base, or harder to take 4th and 5th could also still help the terran even more. Actually it is this Zerg desperitly needing 4th base against the push to doom 3 base terran, if he succes, he Zerg is on 3 base while the terran actually can take a 4th with a PF, Turrets and whatever he wants or he invests even more and tries to finish the game.
On maps like Merry go round, it was said it is a Zerg map due to its harder to take 4th, wide open 3rds and open moving space. But actually it seems like it has become a Terran map, because the Terran can abuse the cliffs very hard at the 4th or 5th of the zerg. The Zerg will likely not expand in the direction of the Terran thus will have to take the 4th at this akward cliff, the terran lifts 2 medis full of units, the rest chills behind the cliffs = dead 4th base and harsh times for Zerg. This is very often seen on the map Merry go round and leads to the conlcusion that even "zerg maps" arent atm usefull for Zerg. If you make it harder to take the 4th or 5th base on a map, the terran can punish this very easy, when you make it more easy to take these bases, the terran can take them and a economically even terran is nothing a zergs wants to fight with,
I dont know how to resolve these map issues, but i know that more Zerg based maps, when you can achieve this ( wide open areas, no lift 4th and 5th base cliff, the protoss gonna have harsh times in both matchups.
Maps shouldn't be blamed for this. It does only result in getting an even more limited map pool in terms of design and variance. The thing to be blamed is the the stale matchup that doesn't encourage different ways to play on different kinds of maps.
Zergs problem in particular is having a completely offensive and flexible setup of units and production but it can't make use of it in any way as it is stuck in every game (no matter which map) on conservative expansion planning and the same mix of units. This mix of units is not able to force any change on the game's patterns. While muta/bling is the best to counter 4m + occasional thors 4m + occasional thors remains the best to counter muta/bling too.
While ZvP has alot of flaws in this regard it is alot better: Zealot own zerglings, roaches own zealots, immortals own roaches, hydras own immortals, colossi own hydras, vipers/corruptors own colossi, voidray/psi own corruptors/vipers and so on (infestors, broodlord, ultralisks, tempest, ...).
Basically every unit in this matchup has its use and place and it is about players to decide what to start up with, what to transition into, what to skip and what to get stuck on. This is a way more healthy matchup with all the other flaws it for sure has.
TvZ meta is controlled by the power of bio and drops of bio. As nothing of zerg does really put a halt on bio and give the zerg some room to transition (hive, 3-3, from muta/bling into roach/hydra, infestors, etc.) the game gets stuck on it. Therefore bio in all the described funktions and with the inability to get countered is a bit overpowered.
Especially in this regard the independence from gas of terrans is a big issue. If terrans key units were limited by the amount of available gas this could be different. Banelings always explode and are gone when engaging a terran. Zerg cannot really come ahead out of a battle therefore, if terrans don't mess it up all through.
And here we are again at the matter of hard counters. Of course terrans can mess it up against banelings and get overrun shortly after. This usually does not happen on the highest level of play that oftenly anymore. In general these mechanics should be softened to create more room for player's creativity, room for transitions and less punishing gameplay on both ends.
Limiting terran's key units more by gas is only possible when shifting terran a bit more away from marines into mech units that are complemented by marines (as it is for the other races with lings and zealots). Therefore the only right choice to make for sc2 is to weaken bio and strengthen mech compositions. Bio would keep its flexibility but would not at the same time remain the stongest army vs army force. This must be the long term goal.
On November 04 2014 13:45 691175002 wrote: Frankly, soO went 50% in macro games. The first and last games had devastating mistakes very early on.
We really didn't see many Zerg options explored in the late game, soO chose a style and stuck to it. Can you really start making calls about late game balance off of a single lost game?
There were no tech switches or instant remaxes. In fact he played the game like he was the one under pressure to end things when the reverse should have been true. Does soO really need to break Taejas fortified planetaries off creep or could he have simply banked resources and larva?
We have been working under the assumption that Terran has a weak lategame against Zerg since the early days of WoL. If you seriously think that lategame TvZ is imbalanced in favor of Terran you should reconsider your opinion.
About those options; care to elaborate? If Terran is turtling on a high ground planetary at some choke, scanning your spire, what options do you have?
I've seen at least 5 full remaxes in games 2/3.
He was under pressure because in surpreme late game Terran has the superior army.
Terran doesn't have a weak late game, it has a hard time transitioning there.
Maybe you should reconsider your opinion.
I see 0 proof, some false claims and some assumptions you made...
On November 04 2014 17:49 SatedSC2 wrote: Is there some sort of reason why 1/1 Roach into 2/2 Roach/Hydra isn't more popular? Every time I see that build being used it looks a lot more solid than Ling/Bling/Muta does, especially against anything that even looks like a two-base Hellbat push. Are the problems it has with drops really that bad..?
Apart from the bad drop defense, Terrans learned to scout it and understood that bio/tank wrecks roach/hydra hard as long as Vipers aren't on the field. It is also way more of a timing-based style (you have to do damage with the 1/1 push or you're heavily behind, and you have to kill him with your 2/2 push or you're pretty much dead unless you go full Stephano and add SHs) than a general comp viable at almost any point of the game like muta/ling/bane, thus making it less solid.
On November 04 2014 18:25 LSN wrote: Maps shouldn't be blamed for this. It does only result in getting an even more limited map pool in terms of design and variance. The thing to be blamed is the the stale matchup that doesn't encourage different ways to play on different kinds of maps.
Zergs problem in particular is having a completely offensive and flexible setup of units and production but it can't make use of it in any way as it is stuck in every game (no matter which map) on conservative expansion planning and the same mix of units. This mix of units is not able to force any change on the game's patterns. While muta/bling is the best to counter 4m + occasional thors 4m + occasional thors remains the best to counter muta/bling too.
While ZvP has alot of flaws in this regard it is alot better: Zealot own zerglings, roaches own zealots, immortals own roaches, hydras own immortals, colossi own hydras, vipers/corruptors own colossi, voidray/psi own corruptors/vipers and so on (infestors, broodlord, ultralisks, tempest, ...).
Basically every unit in this matchup has its use and place and it is about players to decide what to start up with, what to transition into, what to skip and what to get stuck on. This is a way more healthy matchup with all the other flaws it for sure has.
TvZ meta is controlled by the power of bio and drops of bio. As nothing of zerg does really put a halt on bio and give the zerg some room to transition (hive, 3-3, from muta/bling into roach/hydra, infestors, etc.) the game gets stuck on it. Therefore bio in all the described funktions and with the inability to get countered is a bit overpowered.
Especially in this regard the independence from gas of terrans is a big issue. If terrans key units were limited by the amount of available gas this could be different. Banelings always explode and are gone when engaging a terran. Zerg cannot really come ahead out of a battle therefore, if terrans don't mess it up all through.
And here we are again at the matter of hard counters. Of course terrans can mess it up against banelings and get overrun shortly after. This usually does not happen on the highest level of play that oftenly anymore. In general these mechanics should be softened to create more room for player's creativity, room for transitions and less punishing gameplay on both ends.
Limiting terran's key units more by gas is only possible when shifting terran a bit more away from marines into mech units that are complemented by marines (as it is for the other races with lings and zealots). Therefore the only right choice to make for sc2 is to weaken bio and strengthen mech compositions. Bio would keep its flexibility but would not at the same time remain the stongest army vs army force. This must be the long term goal.
Yeah, the playstyle is very straight forward and any deviation from it before 3/3 and Hive can be punished very hard. But it's usually sufficient. What you are asking for sounds a lot like "he makes bio, I should be able to win if I just know that". I agree that there should be better tools to punish a player if you can blindly predict certain moves like a 11-12min moveout and it shouldn't all come down to how much splash you can field, but rather also have the Terran punish you for fielding too much splash or you punishing the Terran for not fielding enough of what that doesn't get punished by splash. --> this really goes both ways!!!
But none of those are real balance complaints. I think it leads to a lot of frustrated Zergs who just don't want to be forced into baneling defense, but the style is sufficient when the map allows you to use its mobility strenghts.
On November 04 2014 17:49 SatedSC2 wrote: Is there some sort of reason why 1/1 Roach into 2/2 Roach/Hydra isn't more popular?
Because outside of a map like Merry with a super open third, it's simply rather bad. It mostly relies on doing damage with the 1/1 Speedroaches push.
I thought it was more that you needed to deny the third with the Roaches rather than deal direct damage. Obviously easier to do on MGR than a map like Deadwing, but not impossible on other maps. That would allow you to transition to Roach/Hydra before going into whatever late-game tech you wanted. This is an outdated blog, but I remember reading it and it was a cool idea: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/445718-swarm-hosts-are-imba-vs-bio
Anyway, you're probably right since we don't see Roach/Hydra much outside of HyuN being stubborn. I guess I just prefer watching it to watching Ling/Bling/Muta because that feels one-sided to me.
On November 04 2014 17:49 SatedSC2 wrote: Is there some sort of reason why 1/1 Roach into 2/2 Roach/Hydra isn't more popular? Every time I see that build being used it looks a lot more solid than Ling/Bling/Muta does, especially against anything that even looks like a two-base Hellbat push. Are the problems it has with drops really that bad..?
Apart from the bad drop defense, Terrans learned to scout it and understood that bio/tank wrecks roach/hydra hard as long as Vipers aren't on the field. It is also way more of a timing-based style (you have to do damage with the 1/1 push or you're heavily behind, and you have to kill him with your 2/2 push or you're pretty much dead unless you go full Stephano and add SHs) than a general comp viable at almost any point of the game like muta/ling/bane, thus making it less solid.
You say "full Stephano" as if Swarm Hosts are a bad unit =P
It probably is less solid and that's probably why we see it less. Perhaps it's like Mech for Terran in that it's an option that can be used but perhaps isn't the best unless you happen to be really good/comfortable with it. Oh well, I still prefer watching it to watching Ling/Bling/Muta!
Well I said full Stephano because I think he's the only one to have ever done Roach/Hydra into Roach/Hydra/SH/Viper vs Terran in a pro match (may be wrong though)
(sorry it's the O'Gaming VOD so it's in French) Yeah I feel that way towards Roach/Hydra too. It's an option, it can surprise your opponent, it can be powerful (I still wonder why Hyun didn't attempt to do it to INno), but it's not the standard.
On November 04 2014 17:49 SatedSC2 wrote: Is there some sort of reason why 1/1 Roach into 2/2 Roach/Hydra isn't more popular?
Because outside of a map like Merry with a super open third, it's simply rather bad. It mostly relies on doing damage with the 1/1 Speedroaches push.
I thought it was more that you needed to deny the third with the Roaches rather than deal direct damage. Obviously easier to do on MGR than a map like Deadwing, but not impossible on other maps. That would allow you to transition to Roach/Hydra before going into whatever late-game tech you wanted. This is an outdated blog, but I remember reading it and it was a cool idea: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/445718-swarm-hosts-are-imba-vs-bio
Anyway, you're probably right since we don't see Roach/Hydra much outside of HyuN being stubborn. I guess I just prefer watching it to watching Ling/Bling/Muta because that feels one-sided to me.
EDIT:
On November 04 2014 18:54 OtherWorld wrote:
On November 04 2014 17:49 SatedSC2 wrote: Is there some sort of reason why 1/1 Roach into 2/2 Roach/Hydra isn't more popular? Every time I see that build being used it looks a lot more solid than Ling/Bling/Muta does, especially against anything that even looks like a two-base Hellbat push. Are the problems it has with drops really that bad..?
Apart from the bad drop defense, Terrans learned to scout it and understood that bio/tank wrecks roach/hydra hard as long as Vipers aren't on the field. It is also way more of a timing-based style (you have to do damage with the 1/1 push or you're heavily behind, and you have to kill him with your 2/2 push or you're pretty much dead unless you go full Stephano and add SHs) than a general comp viable at almost any point of the game like muta/ling/bane, thus making it less solid.
You say "full Stephano" as if Swarm Hosts are a bad unit =P
It probably is less solid and that's probably why we see it less. Perhaps it's like Mech for Terran in that it's an option that can be used but perhaps isn't the best unless you happen to be really good/comfortable with it. Oh well, I still prefer watching it to watching Ling/Bling/Muta!
Well I said full Stephano because I think he's the only one to have ever done Roach/Hydra into Roach/Hydra/SH/Viper vs Terran in a pro match (may be wrong though) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApTM-D2Kj9M (sorry it's the O'Gaming VOD so it's in French) Yeah I feel that way towards Roach/Hydra too. It's an option, it can surprise your opponent, it can be powerful (I still wonder why Hyun didn't attempt to do it to INno), but it's not the standard.
I literally just posted a link where PiG uses it to beat Dayshi =P
I much prefer watching it anyway. That's all I'm saying xD
Oops yeah I totally missed that one xD Yeah it's sometimes fun to watch, that's why it would be nice to have a T3 unit that synergizes well with RH in ZvT
Zerg: At the very top level, there's a slight imbalance (be it map pool or units) keeping the very best zerg from winning approximately as much big tournaments as the very best terran/toss.
Terran: At the Global Finals RO16, Hyun, Jaedong and soO didn't have a disadvantage due to a slight imbalance, they just aren't as good as Bomber, Innovation and Taeja. Proof: In the past, those zerg players didn't win as much big tournaments as the terran players.
On November 04 2014 20:04 inken wrote: Zerg: At the very top level, there's a slight imbalance (be it map pool or units) keeping the very best zerg from winning approximately as much big tournaments as the very best terran/toss.
Terran: At the Global Finals RO16, Hyun, Jaedong and soO didn't have a disadvantage due to a slight imbalance, they just aren't as good as Bomber, Innovation and Taeja. Proof: In the past, those zerg players didn't win as much big tournaments as the terran players.
Wtf is with this logic...?
There's no logic in this thread other than "I lost/my favorite player lost to that so it's obviously as imba as BL-infestor/1-1-1/Blink Allin"
On November 04 2014 20:04 inken wrote: Zerg: At the very top level, there's a slight imbalance (be it map pool or units) keeping the very best zerg from winning approximately as much big tournaments as the very best terran/toss.
Terran: At the Global Finals RO16, Hyun, Jaedong and soO didn't have a disadvantage due to a slight imbalance, they just aren't as good as Bomber, Innovation and Taeja. Proof: In the past, those zerg players didn't win as much big tournaments as the terran players.
Wtf is with this logic...?
There's no logic in this thread other than "I lost/my favorite player lost to that so it's obviously as imba as BL-infestor/1-1-1/Blink Allin"
Er.... Jaedong <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Bomber this year, I don't know how you want to argue against that. Hyun < Innovation, I don't know how you want to argue against that. SoO = Taeja, so there's nothing to be drawn from there.
EPT
