|
On September 19 2011 16:57 silverdevilboy wrote:
In PvZ, there's a whole bunch of messy openings and interactions that have one player or the other have map control for a time, but almost always, the zerg comes back to ling/infestor or roach/infestor, maybe with some mutas, probably with some banelings and drop tech.
Toss are now pinned. The units are good at harassing, Infestors make attacking into them dangerous at best, and baneling drops/muta harass are deadly weapons.
Protoss...make a bunch of blink stalkers and hope to react fast enough.
Lategame, Zerg tend to favor Infestor/Hivetech of your choice.
Protoss....make colossi? Maybe they tech to HT.
The main problem is that Protoss refuse to play as a reactive race. They pick a tech path and they keep on going with it even to the point of idiocy.
Today, I just watched MC play against someone who opened infestor. Literally rushed to infestor.
MC went colossi. And kept up colossus production after seeing the infestors. Hell, the second time around, he had the twilight council, and he had no colossi out. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to just stop making colossi, grab some warp prisms or something instead, and toss down a templar archive.
You are talking like you are putting light on some new strategies that protoss players never thought of.
|
^ you are talking like the whole game is completely figured out, so why should protoss bother trying to play different.
|
Its not like all protoss players refuses to play reactive. Its the race thats designed in a way that makes it very hard to play it reactive compared to the other two. ( I dont say its a bad / imbalanced thing, just that thats the way it is).
To invest in one tech is very expensive for protoss. the first colossus will cost you 500 gas (with range), and now you still only have one robo to produce from. The same hold for pretty much for both stargate and robo techs, twilight you will at least have many gateways : p. Your only option is to know what to react to before you choose your path, which is in most cases impossible. And go one techpath and then react into another will cut too deep into your army size.
This is the reason why protoss seems very "gimmicky" or "stubborn" race.. You either go for some cheesy dt build and hope to make dmg. Or you pick a path ( say colossus ) and stick with it until you can have the econ to support another tech aswel. There is no going colossus, oh infestor... and immidiatly go to templars. You pretty much have to go colossus once you have started.
|
On September 19 2011 16:57 silverdevilboy wrote:
In PvZ, there's a whole bunch of messy openings and interactions that have one player or the other have map control for a time, but almost always, the zerg comes back to ling/infestor or roach/infestor, maybe with some mutas, probably with some banelings and drop tech.
Toss are now pinned. The units are good at harassing, Infestors make attacking into them dangerous at best, and baneling drops/muta harass are deadly weapons.
Protoss...make a bunch of blink stalkers and hope to react fast enough.
Lategame, Zerg tend to favor Infestor/Hivetech of your choice.
Protoss....make colossi? Maybe they tech to HT.
The main problem is that Protoss refuse to play as a reactive race. They pick a tech path and they keep on going with it even to the point of idiocy.
Today, I just watched MC play against someone who opened infestor. Literally rushed to infestor.
MC went colossi. And kept up colossus production after seeing the infestors. Hell, the second time around, he had the twilight council, and he had no colossi out. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to just stop making colossi, grab some warp prisms or something instead, and toss down a templar archive.
Lmao wtf? Did you even watch the game? MC threw down the robo and robotics bay immediately after scouting the infestation pit. He also held it off completely fine without suffering almost any loses. You don't go two base HT versus two base infestor, it is more gas draining and the muta transition would've killed him. You go colossi to handle lings/general ground army and blink stalkers to handle mutas, then take a third base and transition into templar, but the map made it impossible to take a third. You spend 150 gas on each templar being able to cast one storm (which is dodgeable and it's not like they instant kill mutas) even though storm would not have been out in time for when the mutas hit.
Then he has an archon for 300 gas which is slow and can be manuvered around, and you have to have multiple of them at each base. Then you are unable to push out without mass cannoning your main. MC also could have never secured a third on that map because so many GSL maps are RETARDEDLY ZvP favored because there is no chance to secure a third against a mobile, harass-oriented zerg. No "turtle deathball on two base" is going to do anything when the zerg is going toward hive tech with infestors on twice your bases. This isn't January when zergs had no concept of timings, put down delayed thirds, and kind of sat around massing up pure roach or roach/hydra/corruptor.
The game went 50 supply into the zerg's favor after he secured his third and MC was never in a position to secure a third without getting completely overrun. He was in no position to attack without it turning into an all-in baserace he was destined to lose. You think the response would be to do what, use warp prisms with mutas on the field? Do a nice storm drop with mutas on the field maybe? Like that would have allowed MC to ever secure a third or push out?
You either didn't actually watch the games or have no understanding of timings, gas distribution, and being able to secure expansions. MC was hopeless on that map and you think warp prisms are protoss' answer to being unable to secure a third?
But continue to talk about "protoss not innovating" when the only time protoss was doing well was because they had innovated and learned timings and the other races refused to. Back when zerg and terran didn't realize micro tricks that are completely standard nowadays, like drawing the protoss gateway army forward while sniping out of position colossi. However a lot of "innovation" came in the form of buffs and protoss is rigid. You don't swap reactors on your three different production facilities. You don't have multiple combinations of things like ling/muta/baneling or roaches or roach/infestor or ling/infestor, you have zealot, stalker, sentry, and whatever gas-heavy tech path you have committed to.
Terrans didn't even use ghosts back when they drained ALL shield energy instead of just 100. They didn't even use blue flame hellions until recently. It took forever for the Thorzain to do his almost unbeatable mass-thor strategy versus MC. But protoss isn't innovating because we don't use warp prisms?
|
It's getting annoying to hear people parrot that P aren't innovating enough, or playing reactively.
PvT is ENTIRELY reactive to what the T is doing, and PvZ is sometimes reactive, sometimes proactive (ex: tech switch to HT once I scout infestors).
Protoss was the first race to innovate, because it was required in order to survive, what with Protoss T1 being the weakest of the bunch. Even since beta - if MM pushes you, and you miss the FF, you're done. If zerglings run up your ramp, you're done. P has been doing workarounds since the start, inventing expansion strategies, inventing builds that emphasize "hit'n'run" tactics...
Anyone remember roach rush from beta? That was the very first metagame shift, where Protoss learned they had to rush like crazy to get immortals just to avoid dying to attack move.
Protoss tried carriers ages ago. There was a push to make carrier rush into a "thing." Same with mothership.
None of these things were enough.
The other races didn't innovate against 4gate, it got nerfed. Terran didn't innovate against VR harrass - it just got nerfed to the ground. Zerg did not recently innovate - instead, it got buffed. But as soon as there's a problem with P, then some people say P isn't innovating enough.
|
On September 19 2011 17:26 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 16:57 silverdevilboy wrote:
In PvZ, there's a whole bunch of messy openings and interactions that have one player or the other have map control for a time, but almost always, the zerg comes back to ling/infestor or roach/infestor, maybe with some mutas, probably with some banelings and drop tech.
Toss are now pinned. The units are good at harassing, Infestors make attacking into them dangerous at best, and baneling drops/muta harass are deadly weapons.
Protoss...make a bunch of blink stalkers and hope to react fast enough.
Lategame, Zerg tend to favor Infestor/Hivetech of your choice.
Protoss....make colossi? Maybe they tech to HT.
The main problem is that Protoss refuse to play as a reactive race. They pick a tech path and they keep on going with it even to the point of idiocy.
Today, I just watched MC play against someone who opened infestor. Literally rushed to infestor.
MC went colossi. And kept up colossus production after seeing the infestors. Hell, the second time around, he had the twilight council, and he had no colossi out. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to just stop making colossi, grab some warp prisms or something instead, and toss down a templar archive. You are talking like you are putting light on some new strategies that protoss players never thought of.
hes also talking as if you can tech to templar with storm after scouting infestors while already having colossus tech out (on 2base before the attack occurred.. at least in those games)
|
On September 19 2011 17:43 Sanchonator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 17:26 ceaRshaf wrote:On September 19 2011 16:57 silverdevilboy wrote:
In PvZ, there's a whole bunch of messy openings and interactions that have one player or the other have map control for a time, but almost always, the zerg comes back to ling/infestor or roach/infestor, maybe with some mutas, probably with some banelings and drop tech.
Toss are now pinned. The units are good at harassing, Infestors make attacking into them dangerous at best, and baneling drops/muta harass are deadly weapons.
Protoss...make a bunch of blink stalkers and hope to react fast enough.
Lategame, Zerg tend to favor Infestor/Hivetech of your choice.
Protoss....make colossi? Maybe they tech to HT.
The main problem is that Protoss refuse to play as a reactive race. They pick a tech path and they keep on going with it even to the point of idiocy.
Today, I just watched MC play against someone who opened infestor. Literally rushed to infestor.
MC went colossi. And kept up colossus production after seeing the infestors. Hell, the second time around, he had the twilight council, and he had no colossi out. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to just stop making colossi, grab some warp prisms or something instead, and toss down a templar archive. You are talking like you are putting light on some new strategies that protoss players never thought of. hes also talking as if you can tech to templar with storm after scouting infestors while already having colossus tech out (on 2base before the attack occurred.. at least in those games)
As if that's a good idea in the first place. People seem to think that MC put down the robo tech before scouting infestor. He scouted with a hallucinated phoenix then put down the robo despite having a twilight council. Because two base templar is not the answer versus a competent zerg. If you do go templar, how do you secure your third against a simple mass roach switch? People act like MC has no idea what he's doing when he's the one playing against these players on the Korean server, and he's the one who basically created all basic protoss strategies and timings.
|
Hero managed to get back into the second game versus idra because he is one level above idra, but that warp prism play can be easily scouted and countered. Also idra was managing his army in a control attack manner instead of splitting.
Also, only HT versus zerg is a joke.
But yes, protoss can't figure out all the obvious flaws the race has. We need a mass buff to A move our units through the fog to your base.
JESUS!
|
On September 19 2011 17:38 xzidez wrote:
Its not like all protoss players refuses to play reactive. Its the race thats designed in a way that makes it very hard to play it reactive compared to the other two. ( I dont say its a bad / imbalanced thing, just that thats the way it is).....
I agree. Terran and zerg is suppose to react to protoss. Terran can't go blindly ghost if protoss goes collosis etc... Or at least the shoudn't be abel to.
I think Incontrol says it best: "Infestors is never an bad idea", and that somewhat true for ghost.
and thats the problem right now. But i think protoss willl figure it out without patching.
|
Amulet needs to get back. Its not like protoss was op with it.
|
On September 19 2011 17:38 Brotocol wrote:
The other races didn't innovate against 4gate, it got nerfed. Terran didn't innovate against VR harrass - it just got nerfed to the ground. Zerg did not recently innovate - instead, it got buffed. But as soon as there's a problem with P, then some people say P isn't innovating enough.
To be fair, some people say that no matter who complains, as long as they aren't playing their race.
I mean ... the whole 'zerg qq' thing which have gone on for so long ... went on during a phase where zergs were continously getting buffed, terrand and protoss nerfed, and zergs still not in any way dominating. So clearly the 'all zergs complain needlessly' ... was just pointing out the fact of the matter - zerg sucked so bad.
The recent warp gate nerf however, ruined PvT and PvZ because both races could easier cut corners and defend all combinations of pressure and all ins with gateway units. Combined with infestor huge buff, also switched PvZ heavily into Z favor, and made 1-1-1 and those combinations safer for terrans vs protoss ...
If there's one thing to change, it's to revert that change ...
|
HT and blink stalker/zealot would demolish roach. With ease. Storm would crush them. Not to mention that if he is harassing with warp prisms, it's now the zerg player who has to defend against harass, leaving the Protoss player time to expand. See: every TvZ ever. They gain the time to expand via drop harass and getting a strong tank/marine army up. And yeah, they have to spend a stupid amount of time defending muta harass and ling runs and every other form of harass. They do it cos the extra base is worth it.
Protoss are much more capable of playing reactively than Terran. Terran have to make 3 different production facilities and swap around addons. Protoss need a robo (which they need for detection anyway), and then their other tech buildings allow the same gateway/robo to produce the different units.
Terran actually make production that is not used. Consistently. They make starports that make 3-4 medivacs then sit there unused unless they need vikings suddenly, or lose medivacs.
And no, Protoss do not have a more expensive tech switch. Templar with storm costs 400 gas to 'unlock'. Infestors with Pathogen glands? 400 gas.
Colossi with range: 500 gas.
Broodlords: 500 gas.
Yes, Zerg can 'techswitch' faster in terms of making a full army of a different type of unit. That's super lategame, when they have the income and larva to do that, and by then you should have gotten a proper deathball rolling, with templar and colossus both.
A while ago, Terrans only made ghosts later on in the game, and you made HTs in response, and it became a micro war between the casters. PvT was all about switching between ghosts vs templar and vikings vs colossi.
|
On September 19 2011 18:27 silverdevilboy wrote:
HT and blink stalker/zealot would demolish roach. With ease. Storm would crush them. Not to mention that if he is harassing with warp prisms, it's now the zerg player who has to defend against harass, leaving the Protoss player time to expand. See: every TvZ ever. They gain the time to expand via drop harass and getting a strong tank/marine army up. And yeah, they have to spend a stupid amount of time defending muta harass and ling runs and every other form of harass. They do it cos the extra base is worth it.
Protoss are much more capable of playing reactively than Terran. Terran have to make 3 different production facilities and swap around addons. Protoss need a robo (which they need for detection anyway), and then their other tech buildings allow the same gateway/robo to produce the different units.
Terran actually make production that is not used. Consistently. They make starports that make 3-4 medivacs then sit there unused unless they need vikings suddenly, or lose medivacs.
And no, Protoss do not have a more expensive tech switch. Templar with storm costs 400 gas to 'unlock'. Infestors with Pathogen glands? 400 gas.
Colossi with range: 500 gas.
Broodlords: 500 gas.
Yes, Zerg can 'techswitch' faster in terms of making a full army of a different type of unit. That's super lategame, when they have the income and larva to do that, and by then you should have gotten a proper deathball rolling, with templar and colossus both.
A while ago, Terrans only made ghosts later on in the game, and you made HTs in response, and it became a micro war between the casters. PvT was all about switching between ghosts vs templar and vikings vs colossi.
Lmao. I could go on about why you are wrong but I'm not going to bother, you addressed almost nothing of what I said and you're just stating random things that have no relevance in real games. I'm going to let protoss continue to get completely decimated in Korea. I'll watch as no protoss in the world can beat Nestea or Losira but any mediocre terran has a good chance against them, like Happy was one baneling bomb away from beating Nestea in the group stages. I'll watch the win rate continue to be hilariously low and all protoss drop out of Code S because they're all the sudden just individually slumping.
Because there's no point trying to argue with people who have no idea how protoss works and think that zealots and high templar are good against roaches. You think warp prism harass is half as good as medivac drops. Any actual in-game point I bring up is just dismissed and you bring up a bunch of random stuff that has nothing to do with anything.
|
Hmm, I watched the MC games vs Monster in Code A, and his play was definitely sub-par. Still, what was shocking to see how "safe" MC was playing. Sure, a little greedy economically, but his harassment was almost non existent. The once aggressive to the point of losing everything MC simply stuck in his base, hoping he could get a big army and a-move to victory.
I'm on the side that won't use MC's v Monster games as an excuse, because he allowed multiple lings in for Game 2 and Game 3 got caught with his blink pants down, but I just found watching all the games sad. Like the man who popularised FFE into quick stargates, super zealot harassment and quick timing pushes just turtle into the 1 big robo army push.
Whether MC is the top of the Protoss game anymore is debatable, just wanted to say that MC's fall is at least in part his own play.
Now that I've said that: I'm on the side of players that feels Protoss is flawed. We'll see what happens, but I doubt things will look "great" for toss before HotS. We'll see, I'm no great analyst =/
|
On September 19 2011 18:33 Heavenly wrote:
I'll watch as no protoss in the world can beat Nestea or Losira but any mediocre terran has a good chance against them, like Happy was one baneling bomb away from beating Nestea in the group stages.
Well ... I don't understand why all the protoss are complaining about zerg, when it's quite clear that it's terrans that are doing extremely well and beating both of the other races atm.
I mean a zerg nerf might switch which race is doing the absolute worse, but it's T doing extremely well atm that's the problem for both races really ... and spectators.
|
On September 19 2011 18:34 bittman wrote:
Hmm, I watched the MC games vs Monster in Code A, and his play was definitely sub-par. Still, what was shocking to see how "safe" MC was playing. Sure, a little greedy economically, but his harassment was almost non existent. The once aggressive to the point of losing everything MC simply stuck in his base, hoping he could get a big army and a-move to victory.
I'm on the side that won't use MC's v Monster games as an excuse, because he allowed multiple lings in for Game 2 and Game 3 got caught with his blink pants down, but I just found watching all the games sad. Like the man who popularised FFE into quick stargates, super zealot harassment and quick timing pushes just turtle into the 1 big robo army push.
Whether MC is the top of the Protoss game anymore is debatable, just wanted to say that MC's fall is at least in part his own play.
Now that I've said that: I'm on the side of players that feels Protoss is flawed. We'll see what happens, but I doubt things will look "great" for toss before HotS. We'll see, I'm no great analyst =/
What? That blink had nothing to do with anything in that game. GSL has retarded zerg favored maps, MC could only do a two base push and two base infestor is the best counter to all of those. From there on Monster only had to make sure MC could not move out and to keep denying a third. Game 1 was a roflstomp as it should have been because MC could secure a third and play a macro game. His "greed" was as greedy as the zergs who also take a quick third and make two lings and the rest drones---just him trying to play a macro game. Game 2 was his fault for letting lings come in. Game 3 was the map being completely abusable for zerg. Dual Sight is pretty much the new Steppes of War. Any time you see a zerg play on that map, liquibet him.
MC played as well as he could have in game 3. While there were mistakes like letting the infestors kill his sentries, that wouldn't have changed the game. People focus on stupid small things and don't understand the big picture. Probably because the casters often seem to have no idea either.
|
On September 19 2011 01:28 Aborash wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote:
I would say this is a perfect example of that, if any other race was down to 17 workers vs 50 of the other person, regardless of expansions at 13 mins, they have lost I'm really worried about this fact, I cant think a single RTS in which someone with more than double economical advantage, couldn't win the game.
It's funny because it seems like 6pool is a valid ZvP opening on TDA and even if you don't do economical damage and just deny his natural you can bounce back as a Zerg player.
+ Show Spoiler +See YugiOg vs ShinyStar game1, DRG did this to JYP last season too, I think
|
On September 19 2011 16:57 silverdevilboy wrote:
Nobody is saying that every terran is brilliant. Just that some of them are very good at innovating.
As an example, let's look at the way TvZ plays out as compared to PvZ.
In TvZ, there's a whole bunch of messy openings and interactions that have one player or the other have map control for a time, but almost always, the zerg comes back to muta/ling/bling.
Terrans are now pinned. The mutas are so good at harassing that the terran player needs his army to defend against them.
So he responds. He makes turrets, He makes Thors. He keeps packs of marines scattered around.
Lategame, Zerg players like heading towards Infestor Broodlord. This was seen as very OP for a short while...then Terran players started getting Ghosts as well, and ate the infestors and broodlords alive.
In PvZ, there's a whole bunch of messy openings and interactions that have one player or the other have map control for a time, but almost always, the zerg comes back to ling/infestor or roach/infestor, maybe with some mutas, probably with some banelings and drop tech.
Toss are now pinned. The units are good at harassing, Infestors make attacking into them dangerous at best, and baneling drops/muta harass are deadly weapons.
Protoss...make a bunch of blink stalkers and hope to react fast enough.
Lategame, Zerg tend to favor Infestor/Hivetech of your choice.
Protoss....make colossi? Maybe they tech to HT.
The main problem is that Protoss refuse to play as a reactive race. They pick a tech path and they keep on going with it even to the point of idiocy.
Today, I just watched MC play against someone who opened infestor. Literally rushed to infestor.
MC went colossi. And kept up colossus production after seeing the infestors. Hell, the second time around, he had the twilight council, and he had no colossi out. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to just stop making colossi, grab some warp prisms or something instead, and toss down a templar archive.
Play reactive...
Aside from the fact that MC teched to Colossus after scouting the Infestation Pit...
The Zerg rushed to Infestors on two base, made an attack that left all of MC's Zealots two fungals away from death before MC could chrono out a SINGLE Colossus and lost virtually every infestor in the process because he had such awful unit control
THEN took a third base, was up 50 Supply and 20 Drones, made a complete tech switch to muta by the time MC could get Thermal lance and two colossus out, leaving MC in a position where he could not even take a third base let alone fight the Zerg army head on
All this by a player who didn't even make a single creep tumor.
It is MUCH easier to play reactive with a race that is designed to do so like Zerg, whose tech has no ramp up time or Terran, where 90% of your Tech tree is opened to you 8mins into the game on one base
|
I do wonder if Protoss is underpowered or if it's just the current metagame. I don't think there is any way to tell.
I would love to see more Carriers though. They have fixed Battlecruisers for Terran, so why shouldn't they do the same for Protoss? It's sad to see a whole tech-path for Protoss ununsed because transitioning into Carrier/Mothership is too slow and expensive for very little gain. I have no idea what they should do though.
|
On September 19 2011 16:57 silverdevilboy wrote:
Nobody is saying that every terran is brilliant. Just that some of them are very good at innovating.
As an example, let's look at the way TvZ plays out as compared to PvZ.
In TvZ, there's a whole bunch of messy openings and interactions that have one player or the other have map control for a time, but almost always, the zerg comes back to muta/ling/bling.
Terrans are now pinned. The mutas are so good at harassing that the terran player needs his army to defend against them.
So he responds. He makes turrets, He makes Thors. He keeps packs of marines scattered around.
Lategame, Zerg players like heading towards Infestor Broodlord. This was seen as very OP for a short while...then Terran players started getting Ghosts as well, and ate the infestors and broodlords alive.
In PvZ, there's a whole bunch of messy openings and interactions that have one player or the other have map control for a time, but almost always, the zerg comes back to ling/infestor or roach/infestor, maybe with some mutas, probably with some banelings and drop tech.
Toss are now pinned. The units are good at harassing, Infestors make attacking into them dangerous at best, and baneling drops/muta harass are deadly weapons.
Protoss...make a bunch of blink stalkers and hope to react fast enough.
Lategame, Zerg tend to favor Infestor/Hivetech of your choice.
Protoss....make colossi? Maybe they tech to HT.
The main problem is that Protoss refuse to play as a reactive race. They pick a tech path and they keep on going with it even to the point of idiocy.
Today, I just watched MC play against someone who opened infestor. Literally rushed to infestor.
MC went colossi. And kept up colossus production after seeing the infestors. Hell, the second time around, he had the twilight council, and he had no colossi out. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to just stop making colossi, grab some warp prisms or something instead, and toss down a templar archive.
Well, for one thing, teching to HTs on two bases is pretty dicey as it is because of the length of time and the gas cost required to get HTs out.
Secondly, tech switching from Colossus to HTs on two base isn't remotely viable due to the aforementioned gas cost and tech-time involved.
Thirdly, Colossi are actually a completely reasonable choice against infestors - especially when they are in small numbers due to the fact that you can still snipe them with range-upgraded colossi. By contrast, HTs while being useful against infestors, will leave you vulnerable to roach timings if you pre-emptively tech to them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
