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On September 19 2011 15:33 tzenes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 07:45 MrDonkeyBong wrote:
The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close. Do people really believe this? That the Terran players are just "Better?" It seems like a bit of a specious argument. Certainly they're performing better, but is that because the Terran race has some how recruited better talent? or is it something fundamental, such as their wide verity of units, powerful tier 2 caster, speedy tech tree, or their ability to fortify? I don't know the answer, but when you start to see across the board powerful performance by a single race, I rarely think to myself: the players are just better.
I agree. I really don't think they'd all be in Code S if they were playing as Zerg or Protoss.
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I agree that currently, it's easier to succeed as a terran. Because it's responses to everything are already figured out and developed, so they have an advantage in that they don't need to think on the fly as much.
I honestly do not understand this 'it's dicey to tech to templar off 2 bases'. Zerg tech to infestors off 2 bases, why can't you? If you already have a Robo, use it for warp prisms, they cost no gas.
And no, it doesn't die easily to a roach all in. You have storm. And you still have a lot of gateway units, and you probably still have a good number of sentries. Roaches aren't good enough to break you when you still have a good number of blink stalkers on top of storms. You *can* lose if you control it badly, but you won't lose immediately.
RE: Colossi being a good choice against infestors....yeah, if you don't mind your response being obliterated by a single upgrade and any good control. Neural actually makes Colossi a *bad* thing to have in your army if they can get it off. Templar are good against infestors immediately, out of the box, and if they tech switch, you only need storm to make them great against anything else, too.
And no, it's not a long tech if you already have the twilight council, which you should be getting anyway. Archives takes 50s to warp in, and the gateways can make them instantly. Storm takes a bit longer, but isn't exactly 'teching to broodlords' long.
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I honestly do not understand this 'it's dicey to tech to templar off 2 bases'. Zerg tech to infestors off 2 bases, why can't you?
You know, when I read this I literally had the jackie chan "wtf" face. Maybe you should try playing this game first
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On September 19 2011 19:30 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +I honestly do not understand this 'it's dicey to tech to templar off 2 bases'. Zerg tech to infestors off 2 bases, why can't you? You know, when I read this I literally had the jackie chan "wtf" face. Maybe you should try playing this game first
Yeah. No point responding to these people who just assume you can do whatever you want on two base and produce unlimited units of whatever composition you want.
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On September 19 2011 19:26 silverdevilboy wrote:
I agree that currently, it's easier to succeed as a terran. Because it's responses to everything are already figured out and developed, so they have an advantage in that they don't need to think on the fly as much.
I honestly do not understand this 'it's dicey to tech to templar off 2 bases'. Zerg tech to infestors off 2 bases, why can't you? If you already have a Robo, use it for warp prisms, they cost no gas.
And no, it doesn't die easily to a roach all in. You have storm. And you still have a lot of gateway units, and you probably still have a good number of sentries. Roaches aren't good enough to break you when you still have a good number of blink stalkers on top of storms. You *can* lose if you control it badly, but you won't lose immediately.
RE: Colossi being a good choice against infestors....yeah, if you don't mind your response being obliterated by a single upgrade and any good control. Neural actually makes Colossi a *bad* thing to have in your army if they can get it off. Templar are good against infestors immediately, out of the box, and if they tech switch, you only need storm to make them great against anything else, too.
And no, it's not a long tech if you already have the twilight council, which you should be getting anyway. Archives takes 50s to warp in, and the gateways can make them instantly. Storm takes a bit longer, but isn't exactly 'teching to broodlords' long.
I'm not sure how to respond to this post because making claims like 'Protoss can warp in HTs instantly' and asserting that storm is actually worth a damn against roaches (especially when any roach all-in will kill you before you tech to storm anyway) don't do much for your credibility.
You may also want to think about the fact that Protoss has also been making several 100 gas units for the 5 minutes prior to teching up on 2 bases while Zerg has been making only mineral-based units.
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I was thinking, what if protoss would have to build their units as normal in warpgates, and have them added to a unit pool which could then be warped in anywhere with power? ofc this is a nerf, but it could be a good step in changing warpgates. Making the tech appear later in addition to this could mean protoss warpgate units could be buffed while still giving protoss the warpgate mechanic for counterattacks and warp prism drops later in the game
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There is nothing wrong with Protoss units; the one exception to this being the Stalker, and that's because of Blink not WG tech (Blink Dragoons would be OP). The issue is different racial mechanics with respect to each other (i.e. Terran reactors; Zerg larva inject; Protoss WG) and the upgrade/tech dance that Blizzard has instituted SC2 (so that unit X beats unit Y but unit X with Z beats unit Y so that unit Y needs W to beat that and so on; this is a generalisation but you get what I mean). Nerfing WG even further would effectively destroy any semblance of early game Protoss.
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I honestly do not understand this 'it's dicey to tech to templar off 2 bases'. Zerg tech to infestors off 2 bases, why can't you? If you already have a Robo, use it for warp prisms, they cost no gas.
Did you just compare the utility of a HT to the utility of an Infestor? Oh, and if I "happen" to have a robo than I should make a WP, what's so hard, right? And if I also "happen" to have a stargate, I maybe should make a voidray, right?. Protoss are such whiners.
What is taking Blizzard so long with 1.4?
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On September 19 2011 19:42 Crysack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 19:26 silverdevilboy wrote:
I agree that currently, it's easier to succeed as a terran. Because it's responses to everything are already figured out and developed, so they have an advantage in that they don't need to think on the fly as much.
I honestly do not understand this 'it's dicey to tech to templar off 2 bases'. Zerg tech to infestors off 2 bases, why can't you? If you already have a Robo, use it for warp prisms, they cost no gas.
And no, it doesn't die easily to a roach all in. You have storm. And you still have a lot of gateway units, and you probably still have a good number of sentries. Roaches aren't good enough to break you when you still have a good number of blink stalkers on top of storms. You *can* lose if you control it badly, but you won't lose immediately.
RE: Colossi being a good choice against infestors....yeah, if you don't mind your response being obliterated by a single upgrade and any good control. Neural actually makes Colossi a *bad* thing to have in your army if they can get it off. Templar are good against infestors immediately, out of the box, and if they tech switch, you only need storm to make them great against anything else, too.
And no, it's not a long tech if you already have the twilight council, which you should be getting anyway. Archives takes 50s to warp in, and the gateways can make them instantly. Storm takes a bit longer, but isn't exactly 'teching to broodlords' long.
I'm not sure how to respond to this post because making claims like 'Protoss can warp in HTs instantly' and asserting that storm is actually worth a damn against roaches (especially when any roach all-in will kill you before you tech to storm anyway) don't do much for your credibility. You may also want to think about the fact that Protoss has also been making several 100 gas units for the 5 minutes prior to teching up on 2 bases while Zerg has been making only mineral-based units.
Compared to other races where it's the time to produce a tech structure, and then the time taken to build said unit? 'toss can just warp it in the second the archives finish.
And yeah. Protoss also *took* their gas early. Zerg rarely if ever take more than a single gas which isn't even completely used til significantly later on. They stockpile gas as they tech, not before. No reason you couldn't start an archives and make a round of zealots.
And no, I am NOT suggesting going templar blind. I'm saying that if you scout an opponent going infestors, you can respond by going templar, rather than the current trend of blindly carrying on anyway. What's the point of even scouting if you have no intention of changing your plans? If he already went infestor, then he won't be doing a roach all in particularly quickly. 2 larva inject cycles is 80 seconds. If he doesn't push after one set of roaches, you can almost certainly have storm ready, which will be enough to make the difference to whether you can hold it with your zealot stalker sentry.
On September 19 2011 20:13 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +I honestly do not understand this 'it's dicey to tech to templar off 2 bases'. Zerg tech to infestors off 2 bases, why can't you? If you already have a Robo, use it for warp prisms, they cost no gas. Did you just compare the utility of a HT to the utility of an Infestor? Oh, and if I "happen" to have a robo than I should make a WP, what's so hard, right? And if I also "happen" to have a stargate, I maybe should make a voidray, right?. Protoss are such whiners.
If you don't have a robo, feel free to die to burrowed roach timings. You need a robo. Get one. What you then use it for depends on what you need.
And no, I didn't say you should blindly go templar off 2 bases. I said if you scout a zerg going infestor ling off 2 bases, it's reasonable to go templar in response, and it's more than possible on 2 bases, because they're less expensive than infestors. Yes, if your opponent does a massive tech switch and you don't scout it at all, you're in trouble. Welcome to SC2. If you see it coming, you can respond. And I can't think of many tier 2 zerg armies that would do exceptionally well against zealot stalker templar. Some will do reasonably against it, but there's no 'Oh he made X unit and it killed all my shit'.
On September 19 2011 19:30 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +I honestly do not understand this 'it's dicey to tech to templar off 2 bases'. Zerg tech to infestors off 2 bases, why can't you? You know, when I read this I literally had the jackie chan "wtf" face. Maybe you should try playing this game first
Maybe, you should actually read the context. If he is going infestor AS HIS ONLY TECH and you know this cos you scouted it, why the hell not just hard counter him and have 4-5 templar waiting for them to poke out and get exploded. At the *very* least you force him to revert to roaches, and he has to play a little more passive or tech to something else, which would probably buy you the time to expand.
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That's 3 responses from pretty obviously protoss players, based on how vehement their opinions are. All of them assumed that going templar was a choice made no matter what the opponent was doing.
Protoss have freaking maphax scouting. Halluc phoenix? Observers? Seriously, if you guys ever *don't* know what's coming, you're doing it wrong.
Given that you have access to all that info, why the hell not react to it. Play for the hard counters. Setting yourself up with Robo and twilight lets you tech to literally anything in 1 building (Except carrier/mothership. But meh.), and both of those are pretty core buildings anyway, so it doesn't exactly hurt to make them. You then abuse halluc phoenix and observers to know exactly what you're gonna need to make to deal with their tech.
They go infestors before anything else, then throw down that archives and feedback them to death. Start that storm research straight away, and scout again to see if they're teching or making roaches.
That is what is *meant* by playing reactive. You're not reacting to what zerg do in general, you're reacting to what this zerg is doing *now*
(BTW, I've been focusing on PvZ, because right now the 1-1-1 makes the PvT metagame stupid as shit. You basically have to open 1gate expo or you die, and if you open 1-gate expo you probably die to any early bio pressure. I dunno if it turns out there's a consistent way to hold off early aggression, or if there's a good way to deal with 1-1-1 without 1-gate expanding blindly. For now, it sucks. I play T, and I think the 1-1-1 is stupid.)
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On September 19 2011 20:51 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 19:26 silverdevilboy wrote:
I agree that currently, it's easier to succeed as a terran. Because it's responses to everything are already figured out and developed, so they have an advantage in that they don't need to think on the fly as much.
I honestly do not understand this 'it's dicey to tech to templar off 2 bases'. Zerg tech to infestors off 2 bases, why can't you? If you already have a Robo, use it for warp prisms, they cost no gas.
And no, it doesn't die easily to a roach all in. You have storm. And you still have a lot of gateway units, and you probably still have a good number of sentries. Roaches aren't good enough to break you when you still have a good number of blink stalkers on top of storms. You *can* lose if you control it badly, but you won't lose immediately.
RE: Colossi being a good choice against infestors....yeah, if you don't mind your response being obliterated by a single upgrade and any good control. Neural actually makes Colossi a *bad* thing to have in your army if they can get it off. Templar are good against infestors immediately, out of the box, and if they tech switch, you only need storm to make them great against anything else, too.
And no, it's not a long tech if you already have the twilight council, which you should be getting anyway. Archives takes 50s to warp in, and the gateways can make them instantly. Storm takes a bit longer, but isn't exactly 'teching to broodlords' long. You don't have enough gas to make blink stalkers and templar and sentries all off two-base, which means you have to cut something out. Cutting sentries makes you really vulnerable to early pressure and blink stalkers are really good if that pressure happens to involve roaches, so it is the templar that become the least viable option. Also, a roach/ling all-in hits before you can tech to storm, so if you rush to templar with storm you won't have enough gas to produce enough sentries/stalkers to counter that pressure and will therefore die... most of the time. Templar are also terrible when used purely for feedback. Feedback is harder to target than EMP/Fungal and templar are so slow that they can't exactly chase Ghosts/Infestors to Feedback them. Plus, if the opponent has their army in front of their infestors, they're going to die before the opponent brings the Infestors in range. Better to bank on Colossi micro.
MC had enough gas to go Colossi and sentries and to have the twilight up for +2 weapons. He could as easily have gone templar over colossi.
I need to make this clear. DO NOT GO TEMPLAR BLIND. BUILD THEM WHEN YOU SCOUT FAST INFESTORS. PLAY REACTIVELY.
If your opponent is going for a roach ling all-in, you obviously don't go for the archives. Hell, the roach-ling all in hits before that tech decision is even made. You wouldn't have a robo bay at that point either.
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silverdevilboy you are aware of that you cant fight roaches with storm?... If you go templar you wont have gas enough for anything else than zealots.
And roaches is the very "counter" as you would say, to that..... So going the worst possible build against zergs roach / infestor.. why do you even argue about it?
There is a reason why MC choosed to go colossi.. And that is probably not becuase of templars being awsome against roaches.
Edit: Storm vs roach is like storm in pvp.. Roaches are too tough and mobile to die to storm. Even if you somehow can afford both sentries and storm.. manages to trap the roaches in forcefields and land a perfect storm on top of that, roaches have enough health and speed to burrow and move under the forcefields before dying..
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Maybe, you should actually read the context. If he is going infestor AS HIS ONLY TECH and you know this cos you scouted it, why the hell not just hard counter him and have 4-5 templar waiting for them to poke out and get exploded. At the *very* least you force him to revert to roaches, and he has to play a little more passive or tech to something else, which would probably buy you the time to expand.
Because that isn't how Templars work. Just because you have them does not mean you just nullify infestors, especially when you have no storm. If it was as easy as that then Protoss wouldn't even be having that much trouble these days, but Zerg STILL keep making Infestors when there are Templars. You saw it in JYP vs Violet where JYP went early Templars but Violet still kept making Infestors...
Then you have to look at the cost. MC had only enough gas for 5 Sentries and pure Zealots as he teched to Colossus for that push. Now, how exactly is he going to afford Templars in that short a period of time? You are looking at an alternate method of scouting if you go no Robo (i.e Hallucination, which is more gas cost and even less FF's to defend), 4-5 Templar, Storm won't be done in time, and no real way to take a third base after because early Templars leave you even more immobile (when you are on two bases)
A better route would be maybe faster blink w/ weapon upgrades and a healthier gateway army but Zergs seem to be dealing with that pretty well too these days
The way Templar tech is designed, you just aren't meant to be able to get them out early and be very safe, it is a late game tech Path.
Really the only Protoss i've seen go Templars well is JYP, but he goes a lot of Stalkers with Blink into Templars
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On September 19 2011 19:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 15:33 tzenes wrote:On September 19 2011 07:45 MrDonkeyBong wrote:
The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close. Do people really believe this? That the Terran players are just "Better?" It seems like a bit of a specious argument. Certainly they're performing better, but is that because the Terran race has some how recruited better talent? or is it something fundamental, such as their wide verity of units, powerful tier 2 caster, speedy tech tree, or their ability to fortify? I don't know the answer, but when you start to see across the board powerful performance by a single race, I rarely think to myself: the players are just better. I agree. I really don't think they'd all be in Code S if they were playing as Zerg or Protoss.
You guys are both wrong. It's just the simple fact that more people play Terran. It was the same in BW, and there was still a pretty equal distribution of race wins for MSL and OSL etc.
Say out of 100 people who play SC2, 2 of them are grand master level. Now say out of 100 people who play sc2, 50 of them play Terran. That just means there are more chances for Terran players to be good. Now say that out of every player that is good they have a 50% chance to win, you will just end up with more Terrans.
Just look at the code A and code B player pools. So many fucking Terrans, of course there are going to be more of them that make it to the final rounds of the tournaments. And by the way the argument that Terran is stronger or whatever is bad too because look how many times Nestea has won. Look how bad Fruitdealer is/was and he won when Terran/maps were most clearly imbalanced.
Regardless of the fact that there may be imbalances, there are just more people playing Terran. Blame Boxer for making so many people want to be like him. Hopefully Nestea instills some of this into the next generation so we have more Zerg players.
To be perfectly honest, none of the Terran players really stand out to me as being a grade above their teammates and lesser code A and S players [of the same race]. Same goes for Protoss and Zerg. With the only exception being Nestea who seems to have every important quality needed to be the very best of his respective race.
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On September 19 2011 21:18 SpoR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 19:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 19 2011 15:33 tzenes wrote:On September 19 2011 07:45 MrDonkeyBong wrote:
The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close. Do people really believe this? That the Terran players are just "Better?" It seems like a bit of a specious argument. Certainly they're performing better, but is that because the Terran race has some how recruited better talent? or is it something fundamental, such as their wide verity of units, powerful tier 2 caster, speedy tech tree, or their ability to fortify? I don't know the answer, but when you start to see across the board powerful performance by a single race, I rarely think to myself: the players are just better. I agree. I really don't think they'd all be in Code S if they were playing as Zerg or Protoss. You guys are both wrong. It's just the simple fact that more people play Terran. It was the same in BW, and there was still a pretty equal distribution of race wins for MSL and OSL etc. Say out of 100 people who play SC2, 2 of them are grand master level. Now say out of 100 people who play sc2, 50 of them play Terran. That just means there are more chances for Terran players to be good. Now say that out of every player that is good they have a 50% chance to win, you will just end up with more Terrans. Just look at the code A and code B player pools. So many fucking Terrans, of course there are going to be more of them that make it to the final rounds of the tournaments. And by the way the argument that Terran is stronger or whatever is bad too because look how many times Nestea has won. Look how bad Fruitdealer is/was and he won when Terran/maps were most clearly imbalanced. Regardless of the fact that there may be imbalances, there are just more people playing Terran. Blame Boxer for making so many people want to be like him. Hopefully Nestea instills some of this into the next generation so we have more Zerg players.
By that argument Protoss, which is the most played race, should be the most represented in the top.
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Are you talking about most played race from the world, or most played race for competitors? Because if it's not the latter then it doesn't apply.
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On September 19 2011 21:24 SpoR wrote:
Are you talking about most played race from the world, or most played race for competitors? Because if it's not the latter then it doesn't apply.
And whats competitors for you then ? Code S players? Grandmaster players? Ofcourse you will find the most superior race dominate here, regardless of which one it is.
Edit: Since this is so small chunk of players compared to the entire world. Ofcourse it will be easier to get in here if you are playing a better race.
And why do you think most competitive players have chosen a certain race then? Since it doesnt apply to the world players, coincidence?..
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On September 19 2011 21:27 xzidez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 21:24 SpoR wrote:
Are you talking about most played race from the world, or most played race for competitors? Because if it's not the latter then it doesn't apply. And whats competitors for you then ? Code S players? Grandmaster players? Ofcourse you will find the most superior race dominate here, regardless of which one it is. Edit: Since this is so small chunk of players compared to the entire world. Ofcourse it will be easier to get in here if you are playing a better race. And why do you think most competitive players have chosen a certain race then? Since it doesnt apply to the world players, coincidence?..
Competitive players picked their race over a year ago. Many of them picked Terran because of the boxer thing (which is well known) or just because that is the race they played in bw (which is also boxer related).
Like shit, I picked zerg because I played them in bw. It just happened that they were imbalanced for a while in beta. I didn't pick them because I somehow knew they were going to be the best, thats literally impossible to know especially since blizzard can nerf/buff shit at will.
Competitive players are anyone who is playing in tournamentsof course. And you just restated my point, the more the players of race X, the more results X race shows in the overall tournament rankings. Hence why you see more Terran players at the top. But none of them really impress me like nestea, and that's not just because I main zerg. I play random and I know the races fairly well.
My top picks for each race are like: MVP & Nada , Nestea & DRG , Maybe Puzzle & MC (even though P's really unimpress me).
Just to put a little into perspective Nestea has 67 ZvT games, and only like 25 of ZvP or ZvZ.
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On September 19 2011 21:32 SpoR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 21:27 xzidez wrote:On September 19 2011 21:24 SpoR wrote:
Are you talking about most played race from the world, or most played race for competitors? Because if it's not the latter then it doesn't apply. And whats competitors for you then ? Code S players? Grandmaster players? Ofcourse you will find the most superior race dominate here, regardless of which one it is. Edit: Since this is so small chunk of players compared to the entire world. Ofcourse it will be easier to get in here if you are playing a better race. And why do you think most competitive players have chosen a certain race then? Since it doesnt apply to the world players, coincidence?.. Competitive players picked their race over a year ago. Many of them picked Terran because of the boxer thing (which is well known) or just because that is the race they played in bw (which is also boxer related). Like shit, I picked zerg because I played them in bw. It just happened that they were imbalanced for a while in beta. I didn't pick them because I somehow knew they were going to be the best, thats literally impossible to know especially since blizzard can nerf/buff shit at will. Competitive players are anyone who is playing in tournamentsof course. And you just restated my point, the more the players of race X, the more results X race shows in the overall tournament rankings. Hence why you see more Terran players at the top. But none of them really impress me like nestea, and that's not just because I main zerg. I play random and I know the races fairly well.
I bet you have plenty of competetive players below Code S that are not terran.. In fact just look at Code A, already here you see that the distribution equals out. So your argument is still invalid even with a huge favor of terran players.. say 50% terran 25% of the other two.. it wouldnt explain the now ~~70% (Im not completley sure about this number but should be fairly accurate) terrans in Code S.
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United Arab Emirates137 Posts
I can't wait for the statistics just watching GSL for the last few months....Last two days I have seen Terran win both AOL - Protoss get smashed out both times, MC and Alicia get demoted out of GSL - and that is after the season we just had in August!
How are people still coming up with arguments about Protoss being virtually helpless....What will it take?
MC is the best player I have seen at SC2, his micro and natural talent is indisputable....there is not a damn way in hell he would be anywhere near where he is now if he played Terran or Zerg.
Terran are driving a Ferrari and winning the race vs a Fiat and then celebrating like they are the champions of the world.
This is not an even playing field, by a long way at the moment, and the scary thing is I'm not sure if it can be fixed.
I hope to god, with all of my heart that MC switches races to Terran.
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EPT
