EPThttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed_elo.php?section=sc2-korean&race=T
146, 132, 120
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 111
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SpoR
United States1542 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed_elo.php?section=sc2-korean&race=T 146, 132, 120 | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46686 Posts
On September 19 2011 20:57 silverdevilboy wrote: Protoss have freaking maphax scouting. Halluc phoenix? Observers? Seriously, if you guys ever *don't* know what's coming, you're doing it wrong. While I'm not going to complain that I, as a Protoss, can't scout ever, it does come at a decent price (as does Zerg and Terran scouting). I need my sentry energy for forcefields (especially early on) to survive early pushes, and I need my robo to actually make units that can deal damage. I have no problem with Protoss scouting methods, but that's because I'm also willing to make the necessary sacrifices... as should Zerg and Terran players. | ||
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Kajarn
United States126 Posts
1. Protoss has more map control in the mid-game than many Protoss are willing to take advantage of. Once you have a midgame army, watch towers on your half of the map should be yours. Almost always. 2. Abuse defenders advantage more! Instead of letting Zerg attack your Mid-game army as a ball, Spread out your collossus/stalker/sentry ball and force Zerg to engage with a worse concave! If done correctly Zerg won't attack into you! 3. Protoss can rely a little more on micro to combat Infestor/Broodlord, you just have to know how to micro against it. I belive there are two compositions which can combat Infestor/Broodlord: Phoenix/Collosus/Blink or HT/Collossus/Blink. However good the Zergs Infestor Micro, your Phoenix/HT micro has to be equally as good, use your 9 range Collosus to defend each other from NP (easier after 1.4), Blink Stalkers as nessesary to kill Broodlords. After the Patch I firmly believe Collossus/Blink/X will be the baseline, where X is dependent on what tech path you choose to harass with, either Stargate or DT. Warp Prisim will be standard in late game when Protoss has a mineral surplus. | ||
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xzidez
Sweden147 Posts
On September 19 2011 21:47 SpoR wrote: Are you kidding me? I mentioned that Code A especially has more T players. look at this shit http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/1806_2011_GSL_Code_A_S5 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed_elo.php?section=sc2-korean&race=T 146, 132, 120 that sure as hell looks better than code S for me? and 146/ 132/ 120 shows that it should be pretty much even? | ||
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Dalnor
Australia68 Posts
On September 19 2011 18:56 blackbrrd wrote: I do wonder if Protoss is underpowered or if it's just the current metagame. I don't think there is any way to tell. I would love to see more Carriers though. They have fixed Battlecruisers for Terran, so why shouldn't they do the same for Protoss? It's sad to see a whole tech-path for Protoss ununsed because transitioning into Carrier/Mothership is too slow and expensive for very little gain. I have no idea what they should do though. Would makings units under the effect of a mothership, immune to EMP help? Of course the mothership could still be emp'ed. This could help Protoss in the late game against mass ghosts? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46686 Posts
On September 19 2011 23:24 Dalnor wrote: Would makings units under the effect of a mothership, immune to EMP help? Of course the mothership could still be emp'ed. This could help Protoss in the late game against mass ghosts? Meh. What about the mid-game? I can't rush to mothership tech (lmao, how many resources would that cost... = how small would my army be) if I see my Terran opponent decide to get two ghosts at around ten or twelve minutes. I don't see that as a constructive change worth making, to be honest. Besides, that would only encourage you to not spread your army out... so once vikings rape your mothership, your whole army would get EMPed. | ||
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blacklist_member
Australia318 Posts
Even Select admits he was expecting to win(vs one of the best tosses these days) and also admits Ghosts come out ahead over HTs unless we have 300 apm to use the warp prism + HT method | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
It was supposed to be a place where players could actually discuss things calmly. Not things like statistics. | ||
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Dalnor
Australia68 Posts
On September 19 2011 23:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Meh. What about the mid-game? I can't rush to mothership tech (lmao, how many resources would that cost... = how small would my army be) if I see my Terran opponent decide to get two ghosts at around ten or twelve minutes. I don't see that as a constructive change worth making, to be honest. Besides, that would only encourage you to not spread your army out... so once vikings rape your mothership, your whole army would get EMPed. I think the changes in the patch should help mid game, if he's building vikings he would then have less ground units. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46686 Posts
On September 19 2011 23:53 Dalnor wrote: I think the changes in the patch should help mid game, if he's building vikings he would then have less ground units. But he won't actually need the vikings because he'll just push before you get a mothership. Heck, Terran could just throw down a Ghost Academy, let the Protoss see it, and make you waste all your money on mothership tech. Mothership rush has never worked (minus like... one HuK game lol). Having them be decent against one aspect of ghosts won't make people rush for them. | ||
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Dalnor
Australia68 Posts
On September 19 2011 23:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: But he won't actually need the vikings because he'll just push before you get a mothership. Heck, Terran could just throw down a Ghost Academy, let the Protoss see it, and make you waste all your money on mothership tech. Mothership rush has never worked (minus like... one HuK game lol). Having them be decent against one aspect of ghosts won't make people rush for them. I never said anything about rushing Motherships. I feel a mothership when near max'd and the opponent has a lot of ghost, would then be useful. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
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scFoX
France454 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:18 eugalp wrote: Haven't read all 110 pages but has anyone suggested making Hallucination available immediately without research? Hallucination is rarely ever used for anything other than scouting however the timing is such that it often comes way too late to scout. For not much more money you might as well get robotics or stargate. Having halluc available immediately (still need to wait for 100 energy on the sentry) will solve many scouting issues that protoss have in the early game. Then Protoss would have to give up another innate spell on the sentry. Since researchable force field would cause an uproar, you would have to make guardian shield researchable instead. The problem is, most people wouldn't bother buying the spell -- maybe vs mass marines or zerglings? Edit: All in all, it would be a massive scouting buff for protoss. I'm not really sure it's needed. | ||
Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On September 19 2011 23:50 Techno wrote: This thread has kinda gone to shit. Its just people pointing and yelling "see!?". It was supposed to be a place where players could actually discuss things calmly. Not things like statistics. Wait, what? Are you saying the statistics lie??? In a serious balance discussion, I would rate, in terms of importance for the debate: Statistics=Pro player opinion > well written argument > usual crap written on this thread | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:27 scFoX wrote: Then Protoss would have to give up another innate spell on the sentry. Since researchable force field would cause an uproar, you would have to make guardian shield researchable instead. The problem is, most people wouldn't bother buying the spell -- maybe vs mass marines or zerglings? I honestly wouldn't mind that. It would nerf Hister's PvT Immo all-in without damaging any of the key Protoss units, and would allow Protoss play to be about ten times as safe in all matchups. It wouldn't fix 1-1-1 in and of itself, but at least it would give Protoss a fair shot. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On September 19 2011 23:36 blacklist_member wrote: http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/news/Starcraft-II/380/SeleCT-I-was-expecting-to-win/ Even Select admits he was expecting to win(vs one of the best tosses these days) and also admits Ghosts come out ahead over HTs unless we have 300 apm to use the warp prism + HT method Where did he say it requires 300 apm? | ||
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:30 Sbrubbles wrote: Wait, what? Are you saying the statistics lie??? In a serious balance discussion, I would rate, in terms of importance for the debate: Statistics=Pro player opinion > well written argument > usual crap written on this thread he does not say that statistics lie. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:27 scFoX wrote: Then Protoss would have to give up another innate spell on the sentry. Since researchable force field would cause an uproar, you would have to make guardian shield researchable instead. The problem is, most people wouldn't bother buying the spell -- maybe vs mass marines or zerglings? Edit: All in all, it would be a massive scouting buff for protoss. I'm not really sure it's needed. 1. GS does not affect zerglings. 2. Protoss wouldn't *HAVE TO* give up another innate ability. The Sentry woudn't be the first spellcaster in the game that has all of its abilities innate (Overseer, Mothership). 3. I think I'd actually make that trade. You don't really need GS that early. Early bio pressure might be a bit harder to hold off but its not critical. Getting that early info would be much more useful. I don't think it would be OP. It would just allow for Protoss to take fewer risks and make games less coin-tossy. EDIT: also remember that sentries don't have an infinite amount of energy in the early game. Every halluc is 2 fewer FF. And sentries start with 50 energy. | ||
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scFoX
France454 Posts
On September 20 2011 00:51 eugalp wrote: 1. GS does not affect zerglings. whoops, my bad; I forgot it only affects ranged attacks. 2. Protoss wouldn't *HAVE TO* give up another innate ability. The Sentry woudn't be the first spellcaster in the game that has all of its abilities innate (Overseer, Mothership). You'll notice both those units have only two spells. All the three-spell casters have one researchable spell. Edit: Well, except the queen -- but two of them are "macro" mechanics anyway. 3. I think I'd actually make that trade. You don't really need GS that early. Early bio pressure might be a bit harder to hold off but its not critical. Getting that early info would be much more useful. I don't think it would be OP. It would just allow for Protoss to take fewer risks and make games less coin-tossy. The thing is, all races would like to take fewer risks. As zerg, I would sure as heck want to have an on demand ability that permits undeniable scouting at roach tech. It would simplify droning greatly (and punish greedy opponents  ). I just don't really think defense against one type of all-in warrants that.Scouting is a tricky thing to design right. Information is such an important resource. :x | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
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