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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
There was a game at mlg anaheim, huk vs haypro, where haypro made nothing but lings and banelings for 20 minutes and it was amazingly effective against a highly sentry heavy army as well. I'm not sure if this is a balance thing, but I feel like if protoss could get away without making a tonsentries they would be in a lot better position since they could tech faster and expand quicker/safer. | ||
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izgodlee
Canada133 Posts
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scFoX
France454 Posts
On September 20 2011 01:10 Bagi wrote: Would be kinda funny if GS affected lings, 2 damage per hit when shields are gone and lings cannot just snipe the sentry like marines can. Damage on shields is reduced as well, so it would really be obnoxious. >_> I just realized queens have 2x4 ranged -- they deal 4 damage before armor to guardian shielded units. (and 2 damage to unshielded 0/0 zealots and stalkers T_T) | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
On September 20 2011 01:06 scFoX wrote: The thing is, all races would like to take fewer risks. As zerg, I would sure as heck want to have an on demand ability that permits undeniable scouting at roach tech. It would simplify droning greatly (and punish greedy opponents  ). I just don't really think defense against one type of all-in warrants that.Scouting is a tricky thing to design right. Information is such an important resource. :x Well, like I said, sentries have very limited amount of energy in the early game. And while I woudn't call suiciding overlords (or 2) "undeniable scouting", its much better than anything protoss has at that stage in the game. Terrans have scan which is pretty damn good, too. Also I'd argue that given how inflexible the protoss race is, it is more important for them to get the scouting info. | ||
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merlin101
Switzerland194 Posts
On September 20 2011 01:18 scFoX wrote: Damage on shields is reduced as well, so it would really be obnoxious. >_> I just realized queens have 2x4 ranged -- they deal 4 damage before armor to guardian shielded units. (and 2 damage to unshielded 0/0 zealots and stalkers T_T) Dont queens attack with ranged meele? | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On September 19 2011 21:46 kemsley wrote: I can't wait for the statistics just watching GSL for the last few months....Last two days I have seen Terran win both AOL - Protoss get smashed out both times, MC and Alicia get demoted out of GSL - and that is after the season we just had in August! How are people still coming up with arguments about Protoss being virtually helpless....What will it take? MC is the best player I have seen at SC2, his micro and natural talent is indisputable....there is not a damn way in hell he would be anywhere near where he is now if he played Terran or Zerg. Terran are driving a Ferrari and winning the race vs a Fiat and then celebrating like they are the champions of the world. This is not an even playing field, by a long way at the moment, and the scary thing is I'm not sure if it can be fixed. I hope to god, with all of my heart that MC switches races to Terran. Apparently for some people to admit protoss is UP, all the best players would have to switch to protoss, play every game flawlessly, and still have a 0% winrate. In the meantime you have people who don't play the race and apparently don't even understand the basics of the game trying to theorycraft what players 100x better than them should have done (since they think MC lost because he didn't tech to templar...lmao...the lack of templar didn't make it so Monster could take his fourth before MC could take his third and was 50 supply ahead even though MC held off the infestor push perfectly and even killed several infestors with ZEALOTS). | ||
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scFoX
France454 Posts
Hmm. I don't remember how it affects hydralisk and roach melee attacks (at zero range) -- I assume it works the same. That one's for the unit tester; the liquipedia page doesn't say (whether for queens, hydras or roaches). :/ | ||
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Rkie
United States1278 Posts
On September 19 2011 16:57 silverdevilboy wrote: The main problem is that Protoss refuse to play as a reactive race. They pick a tech path and they keep on going with it even to the point of idiocy. Many people have said that Protoss HAS to be reactive to win and if they are not they will just lose. If one race is forced to be reactive to have a chance to win a game I do not see how creativity can play a role at all. On another note when zerg does a 14 hatch no one complains much about it as it is accepted as somewhat "normal". I personally deem this opening as a "greedy" build simply because it is the fastest expand zerg can do. Yet when a Protoss goes their own "greedy" FFE or whatever they do it is always shot down as a terrible idea and that they should deserve to lose for being too greedy. I dont get it... | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
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Vinski
505 Posts
On September 20 2011 03:28 Rkie wrote: Many people have said that Protoss HAS to be reactive to win and if they are not they will just lose. If one race is forced to be reactive to have a chance to win a game I do not see how creativity can play a role at all. Welcome to the world of zerg my friend. They do the same thing they play reactive and if you say they can use rushes and timings to not then you can say the same exact thing for protoss they can use timings. I've never seen a single protoss play reactive but I do believe even if they did it would still be quite hard because teching around is kind of awkward on them. But still they should also play reactive. | ||
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Chvol
United States200 Posts
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silverdevilboy
United Kingdom38 Posts
On September 19 2011 21:10 xzidez wrote: silverdevilboy you are aware of that you cant fight roaches with storm?... If you go templar you wont have gas enough for anything else than zealots. And roaches is the very "counter" as you would say, to that..... So going the worst possible build against zergs roach / infestor.. why do you even argue about it? There is a reason why MC choosed to go colossi.. And that is probably not becuase of templars being awsome against roaches. Edit: Storm vs roach is like storm in pvp.. Roaches are too tough and mobile to die to storm. Even if you somehow can afford both sentries and storm.. manages to trap the roaches in forcefields and land a perfect storm on top of that, roaches have enough health and speed to burrow and move under the forcefields before dying.. I am aware that you cannot fight mass roach with storm. In the scenario I'm talking about, HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY ROACH UPGRADES YET. You have scouted, you saw infestation pit, and you saw zerglings. If he then switches into mass roach production, you should be getting more gateway units, not more templar. Hell, get a few immortals. Play. Reactively. What *is* it with you guys and the 'oh if you go for this strat he can tech switch and win'. You can tech switch too. Do it. You most definitely should NOT have a single strategy that you can do that defeats any other strategy, you NEED to make the correct responses. And no, in one of the games he rushed colossi wayyy faster and only had zealots. In the other, he had it slightly later, and had gas for stalkers as well. On September 19 2011 21:11 Dommk wrote: Because that isn't how Templars work. Just because you have them does not mean you just nullify infestors, especially when you have no storm. If it was as easy as that then Protoss wouldn't even be having that much trouble these days, but Zerg STILL keep making Infestors when there are Templars. You saw it in JYP vs Violet where JYP went early Templars but Violet still kept making Infestors... Then you have to look at the cost. MC had only enough gas for 5 Sentries and pure Zealots as he teched to Colossus for that push. Now, how exactly is he going to afford Templars in that short a period of time? You are looking at an alternate method of scouting if you go no Robo (i.e Hallucination, which is more gas cost and even less FF's to defend), 4-5 Templar, Storm won't be done in time, and no real way to take a third base after because early Templars leave you even more immobile (when you are on two bases) A better route would be maybe faster blink w/ weapon upgrades and a healthier gateway army but Zergs seem to be dealing with that pretty well too these days The way Templar tech is designed, you just aren't meant to be able to get them out early and be very safe, it is a late game tech Path. Really the only Protoss i've seen go Templars well is JYP, but he goes a lot of Stalkers with Blink into Templars I see it in PvT. You make Templar, and he keeps on making ghosts. Does that mean that templar are the wrong response to ghosts? Hell no. It means the fights are gonna be based mostly on unit control. MC had the gas to go colossi, after getting +2, a council, and hallucination. Robo bay = 200 gas. Colossus = 200 gas. Range = 200 gas. You could have 2 templar for the same gas cost. I never said go no robo. I said PLAY REACTIVELY. Once you have a robo and a council out, which he had, and once you scout infestors super fast, which he did, YOU SHOULD NOT GO COLOSSI. In other situations, GO COLOSSI. Templar are NOT a 'win anything' unit. They are a specific response to a specific situation. How is this such a hard concept. You do not play the same strategy in every situation. You can scout what they are doing, and respond appropriately. TvP. If they scout you going colossi, they make vikings. Would rushing vikings blindly be a good build? No, they'd die to gateway armies with storm. Is it still a good response to the tech that they SCOUT IN THIS GAME? Yes. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
Posts like these are not welcome here: + Show Spoiler + On September 20 2011 02:02 Heavenly wrote: Apparently for some people to admit protoss is UP, all the best players would have to switch to protoss, play every game flawlessly, and still have a 0% winrate. In the meantime you have people who don't play the race and apparently don't even understand the basics of the game trying to theorycraft what players 100x better than them should have done (since they think MC lost because he didn't tech to templar...lmao...the lack of templar didn't make it so Monster could take his fourth before MC could take his third and was 50 supply ahead even though MC held off the infestor push perfectly and even killed several infestors with ZEALOTS). On September 19 2011 21:47 SpoR wrote: Are you kidding me? I mentioned that Code A especially has more T players. look at this shit http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/1806_2011_GSL_Code_A_S5 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed_elo.php?section=sc2-korean&race=T 146, 132, 120 On September 19 2011 23:36 blacklist_member wrote: http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/news/Starcraft-II/380/SeleCT-I-was-expecting-to-win/ Even Select admits he was expecting to win(vs one of the best tosses these days) and also admits Ghosts come out ahead over HTs unless we have 300 apm to use the warp prism + HT method On September 19 2011 21:46 kemsley wrote: I can't wait for the statistics just watching GSL for the last few months....Last two days I have seen Terran win both AOL - Protoss get smashed out both times, MC and Alicia get demoted out of GSL - and that is after the season we just had in August! How are people still coming up with arguments about Protoss being virtually helpless....What will it take? MC is the best player I have seen at SC2, his micro and natural talent is indisputable....there is not a damn way in hell he would be anywhere near where he is now if he played Terran or Zerg. Terran are driving a Ferrari and winning the race vs a Fiat and then celebrating like they are the champions of the world. This is not an even playing field, by a long way at the moment, and the scary thing is I'm not sure if it can be fixed. I hope to god, with all of my heart that MC switches races to Terran. | ||
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AdelSC123
France362 Posts
On September 20 2011 01:16 darmousseh wrote: After watching those protoss games yesterday and thinking about how MC won his first GSL, protoss is highly dependent on good forcefield usage. This would be fine, except that zergs figured out specific anti-sentry timings such as the roach ling all in. Also, if zergs see a high number of sentries, they can tech to infestors straight away since most maps are not friendly to sentry agression. I think it takes 3 chainned fungals to killa a group of sentries compared to the massive # of forcefields needed to hold of a roach ling push. [...] I'm not sure if this is a balance thing, but I feel like if protoss could get away without making a tonsentries they would be in a lot better position since they could tech faster and expand quicker/safer. Yeah i pretty much stopped using sentries as much since infestors got popular.. It just doesnt feel right anymore to me, i might be wrong though... Nowadays i either 3 gate blink pressure, into expand and if i see no spore crawlers i try to put up a dark shrine, or forge exp into stargate or blink | ||
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Danzepol
United States211 Posts
(think 2 expansions) new units need to be added. which is what is going to happen in future expansions. until then minor changes will be made but nothing more than range/damage/hp variations. anything else would break this delicate, somewhat balanced game. and i agree to some extent that protoss players play a style where their method of thinking is simply 'get 5+ collussi, move in and win' im guilty of this as well. my only comment on mc vs monster is that he played 1 dimensionally and mis microed at a key time. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
On August 16 2011 06:57 Techno wrote: A Personal Plea From Techno To Protoss Players: Protoss Underpowered is the flavour of the past month or so. This is fueled by GSL caliber Protosses not occupying 1st place on the podium. Make no mistake, if MC won GSL Code S, no matter his playstyle, this theme would not be half as popular as it is with MC in code B. I say: "Fuck MC! Make your own Protoss!". We've seen Zerg evolve immensely in the time since release, the same is possible for Protoss. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how to play, but I am gonna tell you how to think; "Like a champion". What makes Starcraft awesome? Metagame changes. This "lull" in Protoss victories (at the highest of highest level), is merely an oppurtunity for the lesser known, younger, ballsier Protosses to come out of the shadows and wow everyone with new playstyles. Embrace your failures, my friends. This is pretty hokey. Zerg still have never really explored the kinds of tactics people were suggesting back when they couldn't win versus protoss. There has been zerg innovation (roach/ling), but there have been a ton of buffs to ZvP that took away protoss options (spore crawler root time, warp gate timing, etc). I think "the zerg story" will never be a good example for the people who want to see balance changes later rather than sooner. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On September 20 2011 04:24 silverdevilboy wrote: I am aware that you cannot fight mass roach with storm. In the scenario I'm talking about, HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY ROACH UPGRADES YET. You have scouted, you saw infestation pit, and you saw zerglings. If he then switches into mass roach production, you should be getting more gateway units, not more templar. Hell, get a few immortals. Play. Reactively. What *is* it with you guys and the 'oh if you go for this strat he can tech switch and win'. You can tech switch too. Do it. You most definitely should NOT have a single strategy that you can do that defeats any other strategy, you NEED to make the correct responses. And no, in one of the games he rushed colossi wayyy faster and only had zealots. In the other, he had it slightly later, and had gas for stalkers as well. I see it in PvT. You make Templar, and he keeps on making ghosts. Does that mean that templar are the wrong response to ghosts? Hell no. It means the fights are gonna be based mostly on unit control. MC had the gas to go colossi, after getting +2, a council, and hallucination. Robo bay = 200 gas. Colossus = 200 gas. Range = 200 gas. You could have 2 templar for the same gas cost. I never said go no robo. I said PLAY REACTIVELY. Once you have a robo and a council out, which he had, and once you scout infestors super fast, which he did, YOU SHOULD NOT GO COLOSSI. In other situations, GO COLOSSI. Templar are NOT a 'win anything' unit. They are a specific response to a specific situation. How is this such a hard concept. You do not play the same strategy in every situation. You can scout what they are doing, and respond appropriately. TvP. If they scout you going colossi, they make vikings. Would rushing vikings blindly be a good build? No, they'd die to gateway armies with storm. Is it still a good response to the tech that they SCOUT IN THIS GAME? Yes. For someone who doesn't know wtf he's talking about you sure use a lot of capitalization. There's a reason protoss don't open templar very often against zerg, and it's not because they're bad. Templar just aren't that effective early game. Even against pure infestor/ling, I'd much rather have 1 collossus with range than 2 templar with no storm, or 3 collossus with range than 4 templar with storm. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11053 Posts
On September 20 2011 04:32 Techno wrote: I've updated the OP with posting templates. Posts like these are not welcome here: + Show Spoiler + On September 20 2011 02:02 Heavenly wrote: Apparently for some people to admit protoss is UP, all the best players would have to switch to protoss, play every game flawlessly, and still have a 0% winrate. In the meantime you have people who don't play the race and apparently don't even understand the basics of the game trying to theorycraft what players 100x better than them should have done (since they think MC lost because he didn't tech to templar...lmao...the lack of templar didn't make it so Monster could take his fourth before MC could take his third and was 50 supply ahead even though MC held off the infestor push perfectly and even killed several infestors with ZEALOTS). On September 19 2011 21:47 SpoR wrote: Are you kidding me? I mentioned that Code A especially has more T players. look at this shit http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/1806_2011_GSL_Code_A_S5 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed_elo.php?section=sc2-korean&race=T 146, 132, 120 On September 19 2011 23:36 blacklist_member wrote: http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/news/Starcraft-II/380/SeleCT-I-was-expecting-to-win/ Even Select admits he was expecting to win(vs one of the best tosses these days) and also admits Ghosts come out ahead over HTs unless we have 300 apm to use the warp prism + HT method On September 19 2011 21:46 kemsley wrote: I can't wait for the statistics just watching GSL for the last few months....Last two days I have seen Terran win both AOL - Protoss get smashed out both times, MC and Alicia get demoted out of GSL - and that is after the season we just had in August! How are people still coming up with arguments about Protoss being virtually helpless....What will it take? MC is the best player I have seen at SC2, his micro and natural talent is indisputable....there is not a damn way in hell he would be anywhere near where he is now if he played Terran or Zerg. Terran are driving a Ferrari and winning the race vs a Fiat and then celebrating like they are the champions of the world. This is not an even playing field, by a long way at the moment, and the scary thing is I'm not sure if it can be fixed. I hope to god, with all of my heart that MC switches races to Terran. Your choice in posts says it all about the result you want. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
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