and keep their range at 6 in bunkers no matter what so stalker pressure isn't broken.
Remember Dragoon early game pressure? With SCVs mass repairing the bunkers that could not fight back until siege mode was done. Man, terrans were really struggling that time, that shit was so broken....
BW TvP was more interesting than SC2 IMO
Was? I saw a stellar BW TvP just earlier today, the OSL finals. SC2 still has a long way to go before the games get up to top BW quality. Oh yeah and the early dragoon pressure? It's still happening, and it's fine.
Not even remotely comparable to SC2. The TvP play styles of the two games are very very very different. I would love to have tanks be viable TvP in sc2 for things other than all-ins but that is not the case.
Ya id like to see mech tvp as well.. In bw psi storm would crush Marine/medic so it typically wasn't the best option. Also the stalker equivalent the dragoon use to own marines early game forcing a fast tank to stop the early pressure.. I really miss bw tbh.
Sure. But keep posting ad hominems, totally makes a better argument than what, i dont know, what liquidtyler has said about 1-1-1 being too early to tell. Because no one has ever stopped it before right.
What the crap does this mean? You need to stop posting this shit. LiquidTyler's a pro,his opinion as a progamer on the state of the game is more valued than yours. I don't see Belial the progamer showing any tournaments. And if you "don't know" then don't post a comment on it.
Exactly. Tyler doesn't need his name run through the mud having people quoting him out of context. I do appreciate any pro that speaks up about balance though..really puts there rep on the line.
On September 19 2011 07:45 MrDonkeyBong wrote: The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close.
Do people really believe this? That the Terran players are just "Better?" It seems like a bit of a specious argument. Certainly they're performing better, but is that because the Terran race has some how recruited better talent? or is it something fundamental, such as their wide verity of units, powerful tier 2 caster, speedy tech tree, or their ability to fortify?
I don't know the answer, but when you start to see across the board powerful performance by a single race, I rarely think to myself: the players are just better.
On September 19 2011 15:01 Belial88 wrote: Protoss is UP = legitimate points Game is balanced = mindless QQ
Sure. But keep posting ad hominems, totally makes a better argument than what, i dont know, what liquidtyler has said about 1-1-1 being too early to tell. Because no one has ever stopped it before right.
No one has found a way of safely and reliably stopping 1-1-1. That's the point. I know which of Tyler's posts you are referring to and, as far as I remember, it was just some general statement about how Protosses should always play safe and scout etc etc - which misses the point of the 1-1-1 discussion entirely.
The BEST solution which has been found so far is some variant on a 1gate expand into gateway/immortal. The reason for this is that the expansion kicks in in time to pay for itself and thus give the Protoss enough of an economic advantage to build the units needed to fend off the all-in. Anything later than 1gate expo does not pay for itself in time.
The problem with holding off 1-1-1 is not whether Protoss can do it or not - it's that the 1gate expand is extremely vulnerable to 2rax - and borders on a BO loss, particularly in close positions.
What the crap does this mean? You need to stop posting this shit. LiquidTyler's a pro,his opinion as a progamer on the state of the game is more valued than yours. I don't see Belial the progamer showing any tournaments. And if you "don't know" then don't post a comment on it.
Tyler said 1-1-1 is too early to tell to be broken. I say 1-1-1 is too early to tell if it's broken. But, apparently saying the game is balanced and anything other than insulting anyone who disagrees is 'shit', but you guys apparently, well, that's different.
Give me a fucking break. Chill the fuck out with your personal attacks, no one here is a pro gamer so this whole thread is pointless. The point of this thread is to talk stupid shit that doesn't matter, no one's opinion here matters and is probably wrong. So chill the fuck out, if you can't handle talking about starcraft without resorting to personal insults maybe you should go back to the starcraft2 forums.
Do people really believe this? That the Terran players are just "Better?" It seems like a bit of a specious argument. Certainly they're performing better, but is that because the Terran race has some how recruited better talent? or is it something fundamental, such as their wide verity of units, powerful tier 2 caster, speedy tech tree, or their ability to fortify?
I don't know the answer, but when you start to see across the board powerful performance by a single race, I rarely think to myself: the players are just better.
I believe it. I mean, there may be more to it, maybe some of the races are broken, but it wasn't that long ago that every Terran was saying they were the worst race (remember the infamous artosis with MVP interview?) and that they were being underrepresented, even in the top tier.
So it's just a single season, and not even that, but every other tournament (Code A, dreamhack, MLG, etc) has shown pretty balanced results - including the other GSL seasons. Both Zerg and Protoss have a whole bunch of mediocre players, and if Leenock, DRG, Nestea, and Losira weren't in this tournament, a lot less people would've been knocked out and everyone would be saying Zerg is totally broken and QQ about it.
You also look at just the play, and the background of a lot of the Terran players - MVP, MMA, Ryung, MKP, and compare it to Protoss or Zerg, and there's a big disparity there as well. Not many Protoss or Zerg had BW backgrounds compared to Terran.
Code A is far from little league, and has a very good distribution of all 3 races. Code S really centers more on the players than the races, and if you just removed a few key players that are just godly, just Nestea and MVP, and the whole racial distribution would be flipped (just looked at who they eliminated and how that contributed to the racial skews).
No one has found a way of safely and reliably stopping 1-1-1. That's the point. I know which of Tyler's posts you are referring to and, as far as I remember, it was just some general statement about how Protosses should always play safe and scout etc etc - which misses the point of the 1-1-1 discussion entirely.
The BEST solution which has been found so far is some variant on a 1gate expand into gateway/immortal. The reason for this is that the expansion kicks in in time to pay for itself and thus give the Protoss enough of an economic advantage to build the units needed to fend off the all-in. Anything later than 1gate expo does not pay for itself in time.
The problem with holding off 1-1-1 is not whether Protoss can do it or not - it's that the 1gate expand is extremely vulnerable to 2rax - and borders on a BO loss, particularly in close positions.
Zerg have been saying the maps are incredibly broken for a long time. So it's not necessarily game balance, but map balance, and to a lesser extent game design.
On September 19 2011 13:05 Belial88 wrote: and doesnt anyone remember when everyone said terran was the weakest race, with that artosis and MVP interview?
On September 19 2011 07:45 MrDonkeyBong wrote: The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close.
Do people really believe this? That the Terran players are just "Better?" It seems like a bit of a specious argument. Certainly they're performing better, but is that because the Terran race has some how recruited better talent? or is it something fundamental, such as their wide verity of units, powerful tier 2 caster, speedy tech tree, or their ability to fortify?
I don't know the answer, but when you start to see across the board powerful performance by a single race, I rarely think to myself: the players are just better.
Didn't Polt say at the October group selections that there are players who don't belong in Code S but are there simply because they chose to play Terran?
On September 19 2011 07:45 MrDonkeyBong wrote: The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close.
Do people really believe this? That the Terran players are just "Better?" It seems like a bit of a specious argument. Certainly they're performing better, but is that because the Terran race has some how recruited better talent? or is it something fundamental, such as their wide verity of units, powerful tier 2 caster, speedy tech tree, or their ability to fortify?
I don't know the answer, but when you start to see across the board powerful performance by a single race, I rarely think to myself: the players are just better.
Didn't Polt say at the October group selections that there are players who don't belong in Code S but are there simply because they chose to play Terran?
You also have statements like "we believe our team is best because we have more Terrans!" There's a perception in Korea that Terran is the best race. It's the race of champions. How much of that is the chicken and how much of it is the egg isn't exactly clear, but we do know that Korea is the only region where Terran dominates the upper echelon of play.
On September 19 2011 13:48 Belial88 wrote: Fortunately for Protoss, they do have advantages in many of these factors as well. Nobody is claiming that chronoboost are "the 1 problem." Protoss T1 wrecks Zerg T1 - (1) while being more supply efficient and (2) while Protoss techs faster due to chronoboost and extreme army cost efficiency leading to not having to rebuild their army multiple times throughout the game. HT wreck infestors, and Colossi wrecks all things Zerg. This is all in addition to blink stalkers.
And this was even the case before the new patch. 1.4 was just the tipping point, as Protoss didn't even need to go all out to win, hence why it took so long for 1.4 to come about in its current form (not the beta form). It's a luxury patch, which wasn't even needed by Protoss.
Check that out. But I guess that's just zerg qq.
The problem here is that the original quote is correct, and your parody of it is not correct. Zerglings beat zealots for cost, and roaches beat stalkers for cost. Colossus and HT are quite good against zerg though, but NP and fungal offset that to a degree. It's a pretty even fight, overall (although Z beats P nowadays, statistically).
How is it a "luxury patch" when Protoss win rates are so low and blink research time is getting nerfed. 1-1-1 is a "luxury build" in that Terran already had more than 50% win rate without it. Terran doesn't even need this build to be on top.
I was polite with you earlier and conceded some points, but it seems you're taking advantage of my honesty and are now trolling, full on.
I'm new here, is there an ignore function on TL?
On September 19 2011 15:58 vandelayindustries wrote:
On September 19 2011 07:45 MrDonkeyBong wrote: The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close.
Do people really believe this? That the Terran players are just "Better?" It seems like a bit of a specious argument. Certainly they're performing better, but is that because the Terran race has some how recruited better talent? or is it something fundamental, such as their wide verity of units, powerful tier 2 caster, speedy tech tree, or their ability to fortify?
I don't know the answer, but when you start to see across the board powerful performance by a single race, I rarely think to myself: the players are just better.
Didn't Polt say at the October group selections that there are players who don't belong in Code S but are there simply because they chose to play Terran?
On September 19 2011 07:45 MrDonkeyBong wrote: The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close.
Do people really believe this? That the Terran players are just "Better?" It seems like a bit of a specious argument. Certainly they're performing better, but is that because the Terran race has some how recruited better talent? or is it something fundamental, such as their wide verity of units, powerful tier 2 caster, speedy tech tree, or their ability to fortify?
I don't know the answer, but when you start to see across the board powerful performance by a single race, I rarely think to myself: the players are just better.
There actually is some truth to this. It's not nearly enough to account for the disparity in GSL race distribution, but I believe it does exist. For some odd reason, many more ex-BW pros play terran than the other races. For terran we have MVP, Nada, Boxer, MMA, Supernova, Ganzi, Bomber, Puma, theSTC and MarineKing. For Zerg we have only Nestea, July, Losira, Fruitdealer, Cezanne, and theWind. For protoss we have only MC, Sangho, Tester and Ace. Looking at this list it should be no surprise that Terran is always the quickest race to develop the newest and widest variety of strategies in the shortest amount of time. With SC2's friendlier UI, it makes it easy for lesser players to copy the strategies and tactics of better players and abuse them to victory.
The problem the original quote is correct, and your version of it is not correct. Zerglings beat zealots for cost, and roaches beat stalkers for cost. Colossus and HT are quite good against zerg though, but NP and fungal offset that to a degree. It's a pretty even fight, overall (although Z beats P nowadays, statistically).
How is it a "luxury patch" when Protoss win rates are so low? Blink research time is getting nerfed in this patch, too. 1-1-1 is a "luxury build" in that Terran already had more than 50% win rate without it. Terran doesn't even need this build to be on top.
I was polite with you earlier and conceded some points, but it seems you're taking advantage of my honesty and are now trolling, full on.
I'm new here, is there an ignore function on TL?
Protoss win rates were low in GSL Code S because of Terran, and because the lower tier Zergs weren't matched up against Protoss. Everyone has a low win rate against nestea and losira.
It seems like you are misunderstanding what I was saying. I wasn't saying Z was UP at all.
It wasn't the timing of blink that really screwed zergs either. It was Zerg not having the right tech for it. Which is a strategic issue, not a balance issue.
If you want to make it all about win rates though, I can argue that the infestor was UP because in every game it was used, it lost, except when Zerg got a fast third against protoss FFE, in which case Protoss always lost if they didn't win with their 2 base timing or grabbing a third in response. Protoss have been losing recently in the GSL due to spore crawler root change and Zerg's better handling of stargate openers, and because of the new super fast third/late lair vs FFE. There's a huge metagame shift going on in ZvP, after a long time of Protoss dominance in the match-up.
You aren't getting my posts at all. I haven't argued about TvP at all besides saying I think it's too early to tell with 1-1-1, and I'd like to see how it unfolds this season before making a judgement call.
Zerg solved Blink all-ins by taking a faster third or hard countering with Ling/Infestor.
When you have a LOT more resources to work with, it is easier coming up with a solution.
1/1/1 Can be held if you fast expand, but the problem is there is no safe way to fast expand.
It isn't freaking Rocket Science, the 1/1/1 all-in hits at 9mins into the game and you have to be able to create whatever that is needed to hold it, there is only so much you can do on one base. It doesn't take a "Season" of games to figure that out.
On September 19 2011 07:45 MrDonkeyBong wrote: The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close.
Do people really believe this? That the Terran players are just "Better?" It seems like a bit of a specious argument. Certainly they're performing better, but is that because the Terran race has some how recruited better talent? or is it something fundamental, such as their wide verity of units, powerful tier 2 caster, speedy tech tree, or their ability to fortify?
I don't know the answer, but when you start to see across the board powerful performance by a single race, I rarely think to myself: the players are just better.
There actually is some truth to this. It's not nearly enough to account for the disparity in GSL race distribution, but I believe it does exist. For some odd reason, many more ex-BW pros play terran than the other races. For terran we have MVP, Nada, Boxer, MMA, Supernova, Ganzi, Bomber, Puma, theSTC and MarineKing. For Zerg we have only Nestea, July, Losira, Fruitdealer, Cezanne, and theWind. For protoss we have only MC, Sangho, Tester and Ace. Looking at this list it should be no surprise that Terran is always the quickest race to develop the newest and widest variety of strategies in the shortest amount of time. With SC2's friendlier UI, it makes it easy for lesser players to copy the strategies and tactics of better players and abuse them to victory.
God how I hate arguments in favor of the genius of terran players.
K, you are all super smart and the race has nothing to do with it. As SCII will evolve and gets more balanced we will look back to these day and we will see if the terran race will be so overused.
Nobody is saying that every terran is brilliant. Just that some of them are very good at innovating.
As an example, let's look at the way TvZ plays out as compared to PvZ.
In TvZ, there's a whole bunch of messy openings and interactions that have one player or the other have map control for a time, but almost always, the zerg comes back to muta/ling/bling.
Terrans are now pinned. The mutas are so good at harassing that the terran player needs his army to defend against them.
So he responds. He makes turrets, He makes Thors. He keeps packs of marines scattered around.
Lategame, Zerg players like heading towards Infestor Broodlord. This was seen as very OP for a short while...then Terran players started getting Ghosts as well, and ate the infestors and broodlords alive.
In PvZ, there's a whole bunch of messy openings and interactions that have one player or the other have map control for a time, but almost always, the zerg comes back to ling/infestor or roach/infestor, maybe with some mutas, probably with some banelings and drop tech.
Toss are now pinned. The units are good at harassing, Infestors make attacking into them dangerous at best, and baneling drops/muta harass are deadly weapons.
Protoss...make a bunch of blink stalkers and hope to react fast enough.
Lategame, Zerg tend to favor Infestor/Hivetech of your choice.
Protoss....make colossi? Maybe they tech to HT.
The main problem is that Protoss refuse to play as a reactive race. They pick a tech path and they keep on going with it even to the point of idiocy.
Today, I just watched MC play against someone who opened infestor. Literally rushed to infestor.
MC went colossi. And kept up colossus production after seeing the infestors. Hell, the second time around, he had the twilight council, and he had no colossi out. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to just stop making colossi, grab some warp prisms or something instead, and toss down a templar archive.
EPT
