EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 106
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clanbrown
United States9 Posts
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ShootingStars
1475 Posts
ex. 1 TvPvZ have 50 gas need 200 minerals for upgrade if i mule i can get 200 minerals and get upgrade faster! similar to getting the upgrade LATER as protoss and chrono boosting it... + i needed probes for minerals but with MULE I have MORE options dont need no dam probes | ||
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aktivb
Norway7 Posts
The mule is a part of the new macro mechanics introduced in SC2 (Inject/Chrono/Mule). I would like for the new macro mechanics to be harassable by and for all races. What I mean is this: As of now, all races can harass the zerg macro mechanic by sniping the queen. Or feedback or EMP it. T can harass the T and P macro mechanics by EMP'ing nexi/cc's. What I would like to see is for feedback to work on buildings, and for contaminate to also drain energy from buildings. I think this would result in interesting play as SC2 tightens up over the coming years, and harassment and chipping away at your opponent becomes more important. And as it is now, Z's macro mechanic is the one most exposed, while as only T can actively effect it for all races with EMP. I would like to hear your thoughts on this. As for the whole Ghost vP discussion, I have this suggestion: Move feedback to the phoenix. Lower on the tech tree. Ghosts will have an advantage in range, but phoenixes will have the advantage in speed and mobility. | ||
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ShootingStars
1475 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:38 aktivb wrote: I want to expand a bit on the whole mule discussion. The mule is a part of the new macro mechanics introduced in SC2 (Inject/Chrono/Mule). I would like for the new macro mechanics to be harassable by and for all races. What I mean is this: As of now, all races can harass the zerg macro mechanic by sniping the queen. Or feedback or EMP it. T can harass the T and P macro mechanics by EMP'ing nexi/cc's. What I would like to see is for feedback to work on buildings, and for contaminate to also drain energy from buildings. I think this would result in interesting play as SC2 tightens up over the coming years, and harassment and chipping away at your opponent becomes more important. And as it is now, Z's macro mechanic is the one most exposed, while as only T can actively effect it for all races with EMP. I would like to hear your thoughts on this. As for the whole Ghost vP discussion, I have this suggestion: Move feedback to the phoenix. Lower on the tech tree. Ghosts will have an advantage in range, but phoenixes will have the advantage in speed and mobility. Phoenix is barley ever viable they are WEAK as toothpicks and die instantly from ghost if they feedback it anyways... -_- | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45861 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:34 sjschmidt93 wrote: As well as more scv's. Terrans know they only need 50-60 workers at most (and even less as time goes on) while other races need 70+ the entire game. I'm sorry, but late once terrans learn to abuse command centers (both orbitals and planetaries) no one will be able to beat them in games that go over like ~25 minutes. True... I remember when Boxer (and a few other Terrans) made extra OCs just for the free energy and converted nearly all of their miners to MULEs and threw away all their SCVs. And they were riiiich. To be able to have 180 supply in army, against a normal 130 supply army (since you'll normally get 70 or so workers in a game) is a crazy advantage. | ||
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andycz
288 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:38 aktivb wrote: I want to expand a bit on the whole mule discussion. The mule is a part of the new macro mechanics introduced in SC2 (Inject/Chrono/Mule). I would like for the new macro mechanics to be harassable by and for all races. What I mean is this: As of now, all races can harass the zerg macro mechanic by sniping the queen. Or feedback or EMP it. T can harass the T and P macro mechanics by EMP'ing nexi/cc's. What I would like to see is for feedback to work on buildings, and for contaminate to also drain energy from buildings. I think this would result in interesting play as SC2 tightens up over the coming years, and harassment and chipping away at your opponent becomes more important. And as it is now, Z's macro mechanic is the one most exposed, while as only T can actively effect it for all races with EMP. I would like to hear your thoughts on this. As for the whole Ghost vP discussion, I have this suggestion: Move feedback to the phoenix. Lower on the tech tree. Ghosts will have an advantage in range, but phoenixes will have the advantage in speed and mobility. Umm.. but you can snipe MULEs just like you can snipe Queens.. | ||
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ShootingStars
1475 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: True... I remember when Boxer (and a few other Terrans) made extra OCs just for the free energy and converted nearly all of their miners to MULEs and threw away all their SCVs. And they were riiiich. To be able to have 180 supply in army, against a normal 130 supply army (since you'll normally get 70 or so workers in a game) is a crazy advantage. Yeah, exactly. The mule even makes up the cost of the OC in a few minutes... jeebus. | ||
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Aborash
65 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:33 Bagi wrote: So he makes a rant about only terrans being able to work with huge worker deficits and calls it broken, and its actually NOT about the mule? No. You can check last 10-12 post to know why. On September 19 2011 02:33 Bagi wrote: There's no reasoning with someone who just wants to be right. You rent reasoning at all, you just want to bring the conversation and reduce the problem to mules. | ||
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:34 clanbrown wrote: you know if you see a bunch of mules mining out a gold base....you could harass that base and kill the mules......might help That's true, but you have a very small window of time to find out before any form of harassment loses its effectiveness. I personally think the other races harassment options could use a buff, but Blizzard is buffing Warp Prisms next patch. Hopefully the same comes for Nydus worms. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:33 dhe95 wrote: MC threw that game away, puma didn't win, mc gave him that win. The 1-1-1 is supposed to be an all-in. The second attack should NEVER have happened. MC crushed the first attack and played perfectly up until the second attack, where he engaged in a less than favourable position and lost the whole game. PuMa was outplayed completely up to that point. He did not expand after the first attack failed, barely microed, positioned his tanks badly, got supply blocked and didn't react to MC's play at all. Oh, and let MC's probe into his base to confirm that he was going 1-1-1, upon which MC reacted as best he could. On September 19 2011 02:33 dhe95 wrote: Have any other examples, or are you basing your entire argument off one game? Why yes, since you are asking so kindly, there are quite a few games from MC's stream (OGS-SK) which was on TL not long ago. There are also a number of games in the GSL and other games in IEM I believe I can point you to, should you so desire. Might need to give me some time though, I don't want to give you mediocre ones. Oh, also, there is no problem with basing an entire argument off one game if that game proves undoubtedly your argument. Which I believe this one does. On September 19 2011 02:33 dhe95 wrote: Many people can complain how they kill 10 drones with a drop and 2 minutes later zerg is ahead in workers yet again because of larva injects. Should we remove mules and injects now too? First sentence is Argument by Association, which is a type of logical fallacy. The second sentence is a Straw Man argument (I did not say we should remove Mules or injects), which I'm sure you'll be happy to know is also a type of logical fallacy. Happy times all around. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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aktivb
Norway7 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:41 andycz wrote: Umm.. but you can snipe MULEs just like you can snipe Queens.. That is not the same, since the queen is, sort of, the cause of the mechanic, whereas the mule is the result of it. Killing a queen means no inject, no heal, no creep. Draining an orbital means no mules, no scans, no depodrops. | ||
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infectedone
United Kingdom4 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:54 aktivb wrote: That is not the same, since the queen is, sort of, the cause of the mechanic, whereas the mule is the result of it. Killing a queen means no inject, no heal, no creep. Draining an orbital means no mules, no scans, no depodrops. To be honest you can not compair them in this manner. All 3 of the mechanic's are so different in certain areas, but with regards to harass all the races have something different. Queens can be sniped which can put z WAY behind. Mules can be killed but they are a product of the cc so killing it doesnt put the terren behind at that much and to be honest if you are able to "snipe" a mule, your probably going to lose those units you used anyway so it wont be so crippleing to your opponent. Finally with P you just cant harass chrono short of killing the nexus. Due to this saying things like "Umm..but you can snipe Mules [like queens]" is pretty redundant | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On September 19 2011 03:03 infectedone wrote: To be honest you can not compair them in this manner. All 3 of the mechanic's are so different in certain areas, but with regards to harass all the races have something different. Queens can be sniped which can put z WAY behind. Mules can be killed but they are a product of the cc so killing it doesnt put the terren behind at that much and to be honest if you are able to "snipe" a mule, your probably going to lose those units you used anyway so it wont be so crippleing to your opponent. Finally with P you just cant harass chrono short of killing the nexus. Due to this saying things like "Umm..but you can snipe Mules [like queens]" is pretty redundant well you can EMP a Nexus, not like anyone would do it as chronoboost is the worst macromechanic of the 3 | ||
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aktivb
Norway7 Posts
On September 19 2011 03:03 infectedone wrote: To be honest you can not compair them in this manner. All 3 of the mechanic's are so different in certain areas, but with regards to harass all the races have something different. Queens can be sniped which can put z WAY behind. Mules can be killed but they are a product of the cc so killing it doesnt put the terren behind at that much and to be honest if you are able to "snipe" a mule, your probably going to lose those units you used anyway so it wont be so crippleing to your opponent. Finally with P you just cant harass chrono short of killing the nexus. Due to this saying things like "Umm..but you can snipe Mules [like queens]" is pretty redundant Sure you can harass chrono, you can preemptively emp the nexus, or you can contaminate the building being chronoed. Really, if T is able to ditch SCV's lategame and run on nearly all mules, thereby getting a 30+ food army advantage, there should be an answer to this. Like draining orbitals of energy. And that is another type of answer than 'nerf mules'. | ||
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hysterial
United States2044 Posts
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dhe95
United States1213 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:46 SeaSwift wrote: The 1-1-1 is supposed to be an all-in. The second attack should NEVER have happened. MC crushed the first attack and played perfectly up until the second attack, where he engaged in a less than favourable position and lost the whole game. PuMa was outplayed completely up to that point. He did not expand after the first attack failed, barely microed, positioned his tanks badly, got supply blocked and didn't react to MC's play at all. Oh, and let MC's probe into his base to confirm that he was going 1-1-1, upon which MC reacted as best he could. Why yes, since you are asking so kindly, there are quite a few games from MC's stream (OGS-SK) which was on TL not long ago. There are also a number of games in the GSL and other games in IEM I believe I can point you to, should you so desire. Might need to give me some time though, I don't want to give you mediocre ones. Oh, also, there is no problem with basing an entire argument off one game if that game proves undoubtedly your argument. Which I believe this one does. First sentence is Argument by Association, which is a type of logical fallacy. The second sentence is a Straw Man argument (I did not say we should remove Mules or injects), which I'm sure you'll be happy to know is also a type of logical fallacy. Happy times all around. If you watch the MC vs Puma game, you will see after MC held off the push, he built a nexus, some observers, some zealots, 2 immortals, and teched to charge (which did not finish). His second nexus was barely up and his charge was not finished. Meanwhile Puma continued to build off one base, making this push his last. Charge was not done and his nexus had not been up for long. Simply put, he stopped building units and went for tech + an expansion, giving Puma the timing window he exploited. MC was only ahead in supply because of his probe advantage, and he decided to spend his money on tech that did not finish. Then during the battle MC decides to engage in that small choke where the siege tanks would be extremely effective. You can find games where a Terran uses mules to come back from behind, but I can easily find more games that Terran can't make a comeback in. Comebacks happen with all races, it's just that it is safer to mule than it is to go DT to attempt a comeback, for example. That doesn't mean that there is a problem with mules, since each race has advantages and disadvantages in different parts of the game. | ||
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aktivb
Norway7 Posts
On September 19 2011 03:17 hysterial wrote: Terran has a higher supply count in army late game, protoss as an instant reinforce ability. I feel that specific part of the matchup seems fair for the most part. Most TvP games arent even getting that far though. I'm not talking about lategame TvP specifically. I saw a certain match in GomTVs AOL. Coming back from 5 vs 29 workers is not to come back from behind, it is to come back from the dead. There also was a similar scenario and outcome in the next group. I am not alone in thinking that there is an issue there. Z can actually deal with this since you cant call down mules with a contaminated cc. As a general approach in balancing, I would rather see options for players to actively mess with the macro mechanics than then mechanics themselves being nerfed into impotence. | ||
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Neelia
Germany599 Posts
On September 19 2011 01:04 TRAP[yoo] wrote: ye thought about a similar thing yesterday. its obviously related to bw but whatever... take combatshields away and give them the range upgrade they had in sc1. that would give stalkers an edge early on i guess. althou it probably would be a useless change in the longrun :-/ edit: and in bw the marine was very strong aswell...think about deep six in TvP. Stalkers already have the edge early on due to their longer range? | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
and keep their range at 6 in bunkers no matter what so stalker pressure isn't broken. | ||
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