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On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote:
I would say this is a perfect example of that, if any other race was down to 17 workers vs 50 of the other person, regardless of expansions at 13 mins, they have lost
I'm really worried about this fact, I cant think a single RTS in which someone with more than double economical advantage, couldn't win the game.
If we swap races:
PvZ, toss player with 50 probes 3 bases, and zerg with 17 drones and 3 bases. Its over.
ZvP, zerg player with 50 drones, 3 bases, and toss with 17 probes and 3 bases, its over, may be he can cast some force fields at ramp and survive some time, but he only delay the inevitable.
But as Dustin Browder said, its not a Balance issue, its a Design issue.
http://au.gamespot.com/news/6325853/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm-qanda-with-dustin-browder
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On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 19:27 Belial88 wrote:Haha whoever says that terran isn't op seriously go watch Marineking vs Losira Game 1... it was roughly 50 drones to 17 scvs at the 13 min mark...... sure marineking played a pretty sweet game, but seriously you've got to be freaking kidding me.... he made like a total of 3 tanks and only marines and marauders and the medivacs didnt come out till like the very very end of the game
EDIT* Go watch game two now..... terran is pretty hilarious That's a horrible thing to say man. MKP had 3 OC's. I'm pretty sure he made that third OC as a response to what happened, but he was able to pump SCV's quite fast after that. Meanwhile Losira only had 2 bases (and a macro hatch), he didn't have lair to get bane speed or anything crucial like that, and he lost a lot of drones. His mass ling attack at the start also really hurt him (him losing 30 lings is essentially MKP killing 15 drones). It may have looked like Losira was ahead, but there was no way for MKP to lose after the horrible follow-up decisions such as not taking a third, the failed continued aggression, and that horrible ling run-in at the start. I definitely know what you mean when someone says "terran op... fucking 17 scvs and still wins wtf" but this game is not an example of that. I would say this is a perfect example of that, if any other race was down to 17 workers vs 50 of the other person, regardless of expansions at 13 mins, they have lost, and saying he had a 3rd cc is just silly cas losira had a 3rd hatch also, so stayed equal in that, the point is that mules allowed him to constantly produce units and SCV's, so while forcing losira to make units, he could still make SCV's, and constant pressure stopped losira being able to get too far ahead, yes the 3rd should have been faster, but when you kill that many SCV's, it shouldnt make a fucking difference what your folow up plan is, because it should be game over, imagine for4 a second if you will, what a game would look like if terran had done that and its 17 drones to say 40 SCV's and mules (equivilant of 50 drones) they game would be over so fast, even Artosis wouldnt raise his voice or get excited in the battle man. It is broken, and that game along with others make it apparent
Just because a race has an advantage in an area does not mean the mechanic is fundamentally broken. You could make a similar case for any other macro mechanic (larva, warpgates + chrono) and call them broken because the other races have no way to keep up with them. "I traded armies with zerg and he remaxed with an entirely different army composition in 2 minutes, I should be able to do that too!" Thats not how the game works.
The terran macro mechanic allows them to keep mining even if they lose SCV's, effectively making worker losses less devastating. Thats just a racial strength that needs to be acknowledge when playing against a terran. If anything we should have even more of these racial strengths as they make the game more complicated and enjoyable.
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On September 19 2011 01:30 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote:On September 18 2011 19:27 Belial88 wrote:Haha whoever says that terran isn't op seriously go watch Marineking vs Losira Game 1... it was roughly 50 drones to 17 scvs at the 13 min mark...... sure marineking played a pretty sweet game, but seriously you've got to be freaking kidding me.... he made like a total of 3 tanks and only marines and marauders and the medivacs didnt come out till like the very very end of the game
EDIT* Go watch game two now..... terran is pretty hilarious That's a horrible thing to say man. MKP had 3 OC's. I'm pretty sure he made that third OC as a response to what happened, but he was able to pump SCV's quite fast after that. Meanwhile Losira only had 2 bases (and a macro hatch), he didn't have lair to get bane speed or anything crucial like that, and he lost a lot of drones. His mass ling attack at the start also really hurt him (him losing 30 lings is essentially MKP killing 15 drones). It may have looked like Losira was ahead, but there was no way for MKP to lose after the horrible follow-up decisions such as not taking a third, the failed continued aggression, and that horrible ling run-in at the start. I definitely know what you mean when someone says "terran op... fucking 17 scvs and still wins wtf" but this game is not an example of that. I would say this is a perfect example of that, if any other race was down to 17 workers vs 50 of the other person, regardless of expansions at 13 mins, they have lost, and saying he had a 3rd cc is just silly cas losira had a 3rd hatch also, so stayed equal in that, the point is that mules allowed him to constantly produce units and SCV's, so while forcing losira to make units, he could still make SCV's, and constant pressure stopped losira being able to get too far ahead, yes the 3rd should have been faster, but when you kill that many SCV's, it shouldnt make a fucking difference what your folow up plan is, because it should be game over, imagine for4 a second if you will, what a game would look like if terran had done that and its 17 drones to say 40 SCV's and mules (equivilant of 50 drones) they game would be over so fast, even Artosis wouldnt raise his voice or get excited in the battle man. It is broken, and that game along with others make it apparent Just because a race has an advantage in an area does not mean the mechanic is fundamentally broken. You could make a similar case for any other macro mechanic (larva, warpgates + chrono) and call them broken because the other races have no way to keep up with them. "I traded armies with zerg and he remaxed with an entirely different army composition in 2 minutes, I should be able to do that too!" Thats not how the game works. The terran macro mechanic allows them to keep mining even if they lose SCV's, effectively making worker losses less devastating. Thats just a racial strength that needs to be acknowledge when playing against a terran. If anything we should have even more of these racial strengths as they make the game more complicated and enjoyable.
You miss the point, is not that "Terran can mine like no tomorrow with mules", as you said, Zerg, got inject larva, and toss got chrono, to pair in the macro game.
The point is about how a race is able to win with less than half economy disadvantage.
It involves, mules, marines, and all terran mechanics, that allow this situation.
Its a design and synergy problem, thats all.
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On September 19 2011 01:30 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote:On September 18 2011 19:27 Belial88 wrote:Haha whoever says that terran isn't op seriously go watch Marineking vs Losira Game 1... it was roughly 50 drones to 17 scvs at the 13 min mark...... sure marineking played a pretty sweet game, but seriously you've got to be freaking kidding me.... he made like a total of 3 tanks and only marines and marauders and the medivacs didnt come out till like the very very end of the game
EDIT* Go watch game two now..... terran is pretty hilarious That's a horrible thing to say man. MKP had 3 OC's. I'm pretty sure he made that third OC as a response to what happened, but he was able to pump SCV's quite fast after that. Meanwhile Losira only had 2 bases (and a macro hatch), he didn't have lair to get bane speed or anything crucial like that, and he lost a lot of drones. His mass ling attack at the start also really hurt him (him losing 30 lings is essentially MKP killing 15 drones). It may have looked like Losira was ahead, but there was no way for MKP to lose after the horrible follow-up decisions such as not taking a third, the failed continued aggression, and that horrible ling run-in at the start. I definitely know what you mean when someone says "terran op... fucking 17 scvs and still wins wtf" but this game is not an example of that. I would say this is a perfect example of that, if any other race was down to 17 workers vs 50 of the other person, regardless of expansions at 13 mins, they have lost, and saying he had a 3rd cc is just silly cas losira had a 3rd hatch also, so stayed equal in that, the point is that mules allowed him to constantly produce units and SCV's, so while forcing losira to make units, he could still make SCV's, and constant pressure stopped losira being able to get too far ahead, yes the 3rd should have been faster, but when you kill that many SCV's, it shouldnt make a fucking difference what your folow up plan is, because it should be game over, imagine for4 a second if you will, what a game would look like if terran had done that and its 17 drones to say 40 SCV's and mules (equivilant of 50 drones) they game would be over so fast, even Artosis wouldnt raise his voice or get excited in the battle man. It is broken, and that game along with others make it apparent Just because a race has an advantage in an area does not mean the mechanic is fundamentally broken. You could make a similar case for any other macro mechanic (larva, warpgates + chrono) and call them broken because the other races have no way to keep up with them. "I traded armies with zerg and he remaxed with an entirely different army composition in 2 minutes, I should be able to do that too!" Thats not how the game works. The terran macro mechanic allows them to keep mining even if they lose SCV's, effectively making worker losses less devastating. Thats just a racial strength that needs to be acknowledge when playing against a terran. If anything we should have even more of these racial strengths as they make the game more complicated and enjoyable.
It's quite a disproportionate advantage, though. Zerg can only remax after macroing all game long and holding off attacks and harassment, and Protoss can only warp-in 1 round of units, after which there is a regular build time (WG cooldown). The Zerg has to earn that remax, and Protoss warp-ins are earned by expanding enough to support having many warpgates.
Meanwhile, Terran gets its racial advantage in such a way that it's directly immune to harassment. To quote ThorZain: "I don't need SCVs, I have mules."
You said that mules make worker loss "less devastating." I think that's an understatement. The entire premise of harass and drops in this game is based on worker loss, and Terran is not even close to being devastated, even when heavily outplayed. On the flipside, as P or Z, 1 Terran drop can cripple your economy.
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Terran is not equal and generally does not win with less than half economy. They can pull out a miracle win every now and then, but there are other factors involved that have to tip the game to the terrans favor. Saying (and possibly believing) otherwise is unbelievably ignorant.
Ultimately my point is that you cannot just point out a mechanic in a race and call it broken because other races cannot match it. I do think that terran needs some kind of early game nerf as it stands, but calling the mule a fundamentally broken ability is just wrong.
On September 19 2011 01:43 Brotocol wrote:
You said that mules make worker loss "less devastating." I think that's an understatement. The entire premise of harass and drops in this game is based on worker loss, and Terran is not even close to being devastated, even when heavily outplayed.
Terran loses just as much mining power with each SCV lost as any other race does. The mule as it is does not greatly propel the race ahead of the other 2, it just allows terran to keep up with chronoboosted probes and a zerg that is heavily droning up. The fact that terran has mules has absolutely no impact on how expendable your SCVs are in the early-midgame, I don't know what logic makes you believe otherwise.
Once you have multiple orbitals with stacked energy, SCV losses become less of a problem and you can even sacrifice some to free up supply. However the other races have their strong macro mechanics as well that become truly beastly in the lategame, so I don't see how it is a problem.
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e. Double post, delete please
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On September 19 2011 01:48 Bagi wrote:
Terran is not equal and generally does not win with less than half economy. They can pull out a miracle win every now and then, but there are other factors involved that have to tip the game to the terrans favor. Saying (and possibly believing) otherwise is unbelievably ignorant.
Perhaps not in macro games, but when going the infamous 1-1-1 (see: MC vs PuMa etc) it is definitely possible, and even perhaps normal, for a Terran to win the less than half the economy. I maintain that PuMa SHOULD NOT HAVE WON that first game, he got severely outplayed and still crushed MC.
EDIT: I do, however, agree that it isn't the Mules that are the problem. It is the cost-efficiency of Marines and the cost-inefficiency of Stalkers from Protoss. It isn't that the Terran economy is so much better, it is that the Terran ARMY is so much better.
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On September 19 2011 01:48 Bagi wrote:Terran is not equal and generally does not win with less than half economy. They can pull out a miracle win every now and then, but there are other factors involved that have to tip the game to the terrans favor. Saying (and possibly believing) otherwise is unbelievably ignorant. Ultimately my point is that you cannot just point out a mechanic in a race and call it broken because other races cannot match it. I do think that terran needs some kind of early game nerf as it stands, but calling the mule a fundamentally broken ability is just wrong. Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 01:43 Brotocol wrote:
You said that mules make worker loss "less devastating." I think that's an understatement. The entire premise of harass and drops in this game is based on worker loss, and Terran is not even close to being devastated, even when heavily outplayed. Terran loses just as much mining power with each SCV lost as any other race does. The mule as it is does not greatly propel the race ahead of the other 2, it just allows terran to keep up with chronoboosted probes and a zerg that is heavily droning up. The fact that terran has mules has absolutely no impact on how expendable your SCVs are in the early-midgame, I don't know what logic makes you believe otherwise. Once you have multiple orbitals with stacked energy, SCV losses become less of a problem and you can even sacrifice some to free up supply. However the other races have their strong macro mechanics as well that become truly beastly in the lategame, so I don't see how it is a problem.
Not sure why you keep saying its a mule problem, when none said its a mule problem itself.
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On September 19 2011 01:48 Bagi wrote:
Terran is not equal and generally does not win with less than half economy. They can pull out a miracle win every now and then, but there are other factors involved that have to tip the game to the terrans favor. Saying (and possibly believing) otherwise is unbelievably ignorant.
Ultimately my point is that you cannot just point out a mechanic in a race and call it broken because other races cannot match it. I do think that terran needs some kind of early game nerf as it stands, but calling the mule a fundamentally broken ability is just wrong.
Fortunately for Terran, they do have advantages in many of these factors as well. Nobody is claiming that mules are "the 1 problem." Terran T1 wrecks Protoss T1 - (1) while being cheaper and (2) while Terran mines faster due to mules. Ghosts wreck High Templar, and EMP wrecks all things Protoss. This is all in addition to mules.
And this was even the case before 1-1-1. 1-1-1 was just the tipping point, as Terrans didn't even need to go all out to win, hence why it took so long for 1-1-1 to come about in its current form (not the beta form). It's a luxury build, which wasn't even needed by Terran.
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Funny how I directly replied to the guy who was claiming mules are a broken mechanic, and suddenly I have people talking to me about the 1-1-1 and how the mule was never even the point of the discussion. Oh, and ghosts wrecking all protoss with EMP.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that the mule is not broken on a fundamental level. I have no desire to get into the 1-1-1 discussion at all.
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On September 19 2011 02:07 Bagi wrote:
Funny how I directly replied to the guy who was claiming mules are a broken mechanic, and suddenly I have people talking to me about the 1-1-1 and how the mule was never even the point of the discussion. Oh, and ghosts wrecking all protoss with EMP.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that the mule is not broken on a fundamental level. I have no desire to get into the 1-1-1 discussion at all.
I didn't mean to be confrontational, I'm just presenting the point that mule adds up with other advantages. So we're good hopefully. 
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On September 19 2011 02:07 Bagi wrote:
Anyway, I just wanted to say that the mule is not broken on a fundamental level.
None said mules are broken, that was your assumption.
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On September 19 2011 02:19 Aborash wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:07 Bagi wrote:
Anyway, I just wanted to say that the mule is not broken on a fundamental level. None said mules are broken, that was your assumption.
On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote:
It is broken, and that game along with others make it apparent
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On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote:
It is broken, and that game along with others make it apparent
On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote:
if any other race was down to 17 workers vs 50 of the other person, regardless of expansions at 13 mins, they have lost
Again, only mules makes you stay and win a 17 vs 50 game?
Seems like you think, mules is the only thing a Terran needs to win.
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of course mules beeing able to mine out gold bases in just some minutes is not broken as hell -.-
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On September 19 2011 02:07 Bagi wrote:Anyway, I just wanted to say that the mule is not broken on a fundamental level. I have no desire to get into the 1-1-1 discussion at all.
If you don't want to get into a discussion about something, don't state your (IMO wrong) opinions as fact, like:
On September 19 2011 01:48 Bagi wrote:
Terran is not equal and generally does not win with less than half economy. They can pull out a miracle win every now and then, but there are other factors involved that have to tip the game to the terrans favor. Saying (and possibly believing) otherwise is unbelievably ignorant.
Not only were you wrong here, you also indirectly called me "unbelievable ignorant" for having a different opinion than you. The 1-1-1 is no miracle win, Terran does frequently win with less than half economy and I resent your ad hominem attack too.
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The issue as I see it is that Terran can safely remain on less bases longer than the other races. This seems like a design issue more than a balance one, which explains why Blizzard is taking their time addressing this.
Personally I'd like it if Terran had to risk more in order to get their current mineral income, but I'm no expert.
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On September 19 2011 02:28 Aborash wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote:
It is broken, and that game along with others make it apparent Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote:
if any other race was down to 17 workers vs 50 of the other person, regardless of expansions at 13 mins, they have lost Again, only mules makes you stay and win a 17 vs 50 game? Seems like you think, mules is the only thing a Terran needs to win.
So he makes a rant about only terrans being able to work with huge worker deficits and calls it broken, and its actually NOT about the mule?
Whatever, I give up. Mules OP, terran OP, blah blah blah. There's no reasoning with someone who just wants to be right.
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On September 19 2011 01:58 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 01:48 Bagi wrote:
Terran is not equal and generally does not win with less than half economy. They can pull out a miracle win every now and then, but there are other factors involved that have to tip the game to the terrans favor. Saying (and possibly believing) otherwise is unbelievably ignorant. Perhaps not in macro games, but when going the infamous 1-1-1 (see: MC vs PuMa etc) it is definitely possible, and even perhaps normal, for a Terran to win the less than half the economy. I maintain that PuMa SHOULD NOT HAVE WON that first game, he got severely outplayed and still crushed MC. EDIT: I do, however, agree that it isn't the Mules that are the problem. It is the cost-efficiency of Marines and the cost-inefficiency of Stalkers from Protoss. It isn't that the Terran economy is so much better, it is that the Terran ARMY is so much better.
MC threw that game away, puma didn't win, mc gave him that win.
Have any other examples, or are you basing your entire argument off one game? Many people can complain how they kill 10 drones with a drop and 2 minutes later zerg is ahead in workers yet again because of larva injects. Should we remove mules and injects now too?
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On September 19 2011 02:32 Novalisk wrote:
The issue as I see it is that Terran can safely remain on less bases longer than the other races. This seems like a design issue more than a balance one, which explains why Blizzard is taking their time addressing this.
Personally I'd like it if Terran had to risk more in order to get their current mineral income, but I'm no expert.
As well as more scv's. Terrans know they only need 50-60 workers at most (and even less as time goes on) while other races need 70+ the entire game.
I'm sorry, but late once terrans learn to abuse command centers (both orbitals and planetaries) no one will be able to beat them in games that go over like ~25 minutes.
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EPT
