EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 107
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justinpal
United States3810 Posts
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okrane
France265 Posts
and keep their range at 6 in bunkers no matter what so stalker pressure isn't broken.  Remember Dragoon early game pressure? With SCVs mass repairing the bunkers that could not fight back until siege mode was done. Man, terrans were really struggling that time, that shit was so broken.... | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On September 19 2011 04:51 okrane wrote: Remember Dragoon early game pressure? With SCVs mass repairing the bunkers that could not fight back until siege mode was done. Man, terrans were really struggling that time, that shit was so broken.... BW TvP was more interesting than SC2 IMO | ||
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aktivb
Norway7 Posts
Was? I saw a stellar BW TvP just earlier today, the OSL finals. SC2 still has a long way to go before the games get up to top BW quality. Oh yeah and the early dragoon pressure? It's still happening, and it's fine. | ||
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ypslala
Burma545 Posts
On September 18 2011 22:10 Elementsu wrote: Can protoss even expand safely against terran? It seems every single protoss expansion build has a reasonably standard terran response.This creates a scenario where the terran player has to allow protoss to expand. In BW terran had lifting buildings, bunkers because they needed a lot of safety to expand, they couldn`t rely on crappy marines to defend. Protoss had to expand outside their base with no defensive structures, but they at least could rely on their strong gateway units. In SC2 protoss has to expand with crappy gateway units, no defensive structures while terran has the control due to how powerful bio is, bunkers and lifting CC are just the icing on the cake. I feel blizzard tried to change the way the races play drastically while keeping a lot of mechanics, for now it seems they failed at it. this is a very good point. expanding for toss is one of the big problems. i already said my opinion/suggestions for this problem. | ||
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MrDonkeyBong
Canada103 Posts
This means in Code A and S combined, there are 28 Terrans, 19 Zergs, and 17 protoss, or 43.75% T, 29.7% Z, and 26.6% P. Still Terran favored, for sure, but not ridiculous. The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45074 Posts
On September 19 2011 07:45 MrDonkeyBong wrote: To everyone saying that there are too many Terrans in the GSL, there are only 8 Terrans in Code A this season. Code A is quite balanced, and is still an incredibly high level of play. This means in Code A and S combined, there are 28 Terrans, 19 Zergs, and 17 protoss, or 43.75% T, 29.7% Z, and 26.6% P. Still Terran favored, for sure, but not ridiculous. The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close. When you can only name three really good Zergs or Protosses and everyone else is Terran, there's a problem. (And Nestea is the only one at the Terrans' level at the moment. MC and Losira aren't.) The highest code has become Code T, not Code S. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 18 2011 21:35 WarrickHunt wrote: I would say this is a perfect example of that, if any other race was down to 17 workers vs 50 of the other person, regardless of expansions at 13 mins, they have lost, and saying he had a 3rd cc is just silly cas losira had a 3rd hatch also, so stayed equal in that, the point is that mules allowed him to constantly produce units and SCV's, so while forcing losira to make units, he could still make SCV's, and constant pressure stopped losira being able to get too far ahead, yes the 3rd should have been faster, but when you kill that many SCV's, it shouldnt make a fucking difference what your folow up plan is, because it should be game over, imagine for4 a second if you will, what a game would look like if terran had done that and its 17 drones to say 40 SCV's and mules (equivilant of 50 drones) they game would be over so fast, even Artosis wouldnt raise his voice or get excited in the battle man. It is broken, and that game along with others make it apparent I'd much rather be Zerg with 3 bases/4hatches, with 17 drones, and a huge t1 army, than a Terran on 1 base with 50 SCVs. This is kind of the reverse of what happened in that game. Losira had no army, 50 drones, and only on 2 bases, while MKP had 3 OCs, and while only having 17 workers he had a huge army advantage. Furthermore, he was way ahead of Losira due to Losira's shitty ling runby's in the beginning. Losira had a macro hatch, not a 3rd. It was too early of him to take that macro hatch, the game in the next 30 seconds after he took it did not go as he planned obviously. Just because Zerg does a runby shouldn't mean that they instantly win even if Terran has a huge army. I get what you're saying. I really do, I'm a Masters Zerg and I run into this kind of bullshit all the time. But this specific game, is not an instance of it. It may look like it, but it wasn't. The reason, imo, Terran has so many more in Code S is because the top-level T's are at a higher level then top-level Z's or P's. Terran has players like Mvp, MMA, Polt, Ryung, and even MKP once he gets out of his slump, which I know he will. Zerg has Nestea, and maybe Losira? Protoss really only has MC, and he's slumping hard, and maaaybe Huk, he's getting really close. I completely agree with this. When you really look at it, Zerg only has 3 "amazing" Zerg players in Leenock, Nestea, and Losira - and when you look at that, there's really only 1 great zerg player, and he clearly has trouble against drops and has vulnerabilities. DRG is okay but he makes some extremely basic mistakes (never taking a base after 3, overlord spread he's got the decision making but clearly not the ... refinement). When you can only name three really good Zergs or Protosses and everyone else is Terran, there's a problem. (And Nestea is the only one at the Terrans' level at the moment. MC and Losira aren't.) The highest code has become Code T, not Code S. You can only name three really good Z/P because that's just how many there are. Maybe they are harder races to play, maybe all the great BW players switched to Terran (MMA, mkp, MVP....duh). Your comment about 'code t'... oh, that's just so cute. Your superior argument there has convinced me! | ||
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oDieN[Siege]
United States2905 Posts
On September 19 2011 04:35 justinpal wrote: Mules need to have 1 HP, no armor, a 45 second cool down and not to stack with SCVs. 1 HP? lol... what the he- | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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PrObeLife
Australia22 Posts
On September 19 2011 01:59 Brotocol wrote: Fortunately for Terran, they do have advantages in many of these factors as well. Nobody is claiming that mules are "the 1 problem." Terran T1 wrecks Protoss T1 - (1) while being cheaper and (2) while Terran mines faster due to mules. Ghosts wreck High Templar, and EMP wrecks all things Protoss. This is all in addition to mules. And this was even the case before 1-1-1. 1-1-1 was just the tipping point, as Terrans didn't even need to go all out to win, hence why it took so long for 1-1-1 to come about in its current form (not the beta form). It's a luxury build, which wasn't even needed by Terran. Well said. Respect for you being terran and saying that also. Very valid points. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
And this was even the case before the new patch. 1.4 was just the tipping point, as Protoss didn't even need to go all out to win, hence why it took so long for 1.4 to come about in its current form (not the beta form). It's a luxury patch, which wasn't even needed by Protoss. Check that out. But I guess that's just zerg qq. | ||
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PPTouch
99 Posts
On September 19 2011 13:48 Belial88 wrote: Fortunately for Protoss, they do have advantages in many of these factors as well. Nobody is claiming that chronoboost are "the 1 problem." Protoss T1 wrecks Zerg T1 - (1) while being more supply efficient and (2) while Protoss techs faster due to chronoboost and extreme army cost efficiency leading to not having to rebuild their army multiple times throughout the game. HT wreck infestors, and Colossi wrecks all things Zerg. This is all in addition to blink stalkers. And this was even the case before the new patch. 1.4 was just the tipping point, as Protoss didn't even need to go all out to win, hence why it took so long for 1.4 to come about in its current form (not the beta form). It's a luxury patch, which wasn't even needed by Protoss. Check that out. But I guess that's just zerg qq. pretty sure all of TL has come to the conclusion youre just a qq bot and don't actually play the game | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On September 19 2011 13:48 Belial88 wrote: Fortunately for Protoss, they do have advantages in many of these factors as well. Nobody is claiming that chronoboost are "the 1 problem." Protoss T1 wrecks Zerg T1 - (1) while being more supply efficient and (2) while Protoss techs faster due to chronoboost and extreme army cost efficiency leading to not having to rebuild their army multiple times throughout the game. HT wreck infestors, and Colossi wrecks all things Zerg. This is all in addition to blink stalkers. And this was even the case before the new patch. 1.4 was just the tipping point, as Protoss didn't even need to go all out to win, hence why it took so long for 1.4 to come about in its current form (not the beta form). It's a luxury patch, which wasn't even needed by Protoss. Check that out. But I guess that's just zerg qq. That "complaint" sounds like the usual "race X has this AND this AND this AND this" and they usually imply that that race ALWAYS has EVERYTHING on that list. Terrans ALWAYS have a big load of Marines AND Marauders with all the upgrades PLUS a shitload of Tanks and Hellions and Medivacs ... and not to forget 10 Ghosts in the first five minutes. Just learn to scout and to guess correctly (watch Sheth if you want to learn good guessing). | ||
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vincom2
Singapore1775 Posts
On September 19 2011 04:27 sjschmidt93 wrote: I like the idea of giving marines a range upgrade just to make it easier to scout Terrans. PvT is very coin-flippy when you don't know gas timings. and keep their range at 6 in bunkers no matter what so stalker pressure isn't broken. I like the range upgrade idea too, but I don't see why stalker pressure would be "broken" if rangeless marines couldn't hit them from inside a bunker? Range dragoons outrange rangeless marines in bunkers. What does BW terran do? Yeah, pull a bunch of SCVs to repair the bunker until siege tech (I suppose the equivalent in SC2 could be marauder tech or something) gets out. Repair is good. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
pretty sure all of TL has come to the conclusion youre just a qq bot and don't actually play the game I get a lot more people saying they agree with me than the few people who just insult me instead of talk rationally. I was just pointing out how ridiculous what he said was, not that Protoss is OP. There's a lot more to the game than just "terrans tier 1 is 2.1x better than protoss! nerf mules!" or "colossi stomp everything zerg has, therefore P>Z". I haven't QQ'd about anything either. Despite the frustration of the protoss deathball and the few protoss who know how to FB infestors, the game is very well balanced. Too many people are hung up on this build or that build being too good for the first month it's out or that 5 pro players dropped out of a single tournament, in total contrast to the results of ladder and every other tournament. | ||
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PrObeLife
Australia22 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Game is balanced = mindless QQ Sure. But keep posting ad hominems, totally makes a better argument than what, i dont know, what liquidtyler has said about 1-1-1 being too early to tell. Because no one has ever stopped it before right. | ||
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Neelia
Germany599 Posts
On September 19 2011 14:37 vincom2 wrote: I like the range upgrade idea too, but I don't see why stalker pressure would be "broken" if rangeless marines couldn't hit them from inside a bunker? Range dragoons outrange rangeless marines in bunkers. What does BW terran do? Yeah, pull a bunch of SCVs to repair the bunker until siege tech (I suppose the equivalent in SC2 could be marauder tech or something) gets out. Repair is good. The difference is you could not warp in your dragoons right next to his base with a minor investment of 100 minerals. Imo the whole warpgate idea is stupid and doesn't fit into a rts game really well, atleast not as a t1 tech. As all the Gateway untis have to be balanced around this (KA removal for example) Protoss will always be broken/borderline op as long as they won't rework the warpgate :/ | ||
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wolfe
United States761 Posts
On September 19 2011 06:23 aktivb wrote: Was? I saw a stellar BW TvP just earlier today, the OSL finals. SC2 still has a long way to go before the games get up to top BW quality. Oh yeah and the early dragoon pressure? It's still happening, and it's fine. Not even remotely comparable to SC2. The TvP play styles of the two games are very very very different. I would love to have tanks be viable TvP in sc2 for things other than all-ins but that is not the case. | ||
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