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On August 14 2011 04:37 akalarry wrote:
what's the point of the security deposit if there's a contract? What's the point of a contract if there's a security deposit? I think nasl could've just required the security deposit first as the players were signing up, so they have "realistic" leverage.
looks like the security deposit is worth more than the contract lol. a big oopsie by nasl.
Good point. But it'd be hard to justify why you're charging so much, upfront, immediately, when you are supposedly inviting players to play in your league...or am I wrong, is there a similar situation like this in any other professional competition?
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On August 14 2011 04:37 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 04:29 Grr Arr Rawr wrote:On August 14 2011 04:10 jackthelad wrote:
But organisations that deal with the NASL now need to be aware that their negotiations might be made public. Sponsors beware also... I dont think the big corporates will take that kind of crap lightly. Could be their days are numbered unless they get some maturity in the management team... Yeah, guys, he's actually right about that. Noone will want to deal with NASL knowing what happens if you break a contract with them. ... ... ... No, he's not right. There is almost always an official statement following any two companies' separation. It is not unheard of...it's actually the most common practice. It's unheard of to NOT see an official statement.
I think he was being sarcastic.
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On August 14 2011 03:43 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 03:32 Grr Arr Rawr wrote:On August 14 2011 02:44 Daniel C wrote:
2. The remaining $1000 comes from the guaranteed $1000 prize money for a Ro16 finish (up from $500). So it's not really "compensation". How is it not? It's guaranteed money, and a concession made purely to to make the tournament more viable for players that otherwise struggle with the flight costs. Let me put this another way: At a 16-player Finals, with $1,000 travel stipends available for all qualifying players, the NASL is willing to spend $16k just to bring people to the Finals. For comparison, THE TOTAL PRIZEPOOL OF MLG IS $14k. That's in ADDITION to the $100,000 prizepool for NASL. Jesus, people. How much more money do you think NASL's backer(s) should throw at this thing? Some of you people are just seriously freaking clueless. If they are willing to go to mlg or dreamhack for way less money, then OBVIOUSLY the reason they aren't willing to participate in NASL is some other reason. They aren't stupid you know.
So... the total prize pool of MLG is much lower than NASL... yet the Koreans are happy to go to MLG after MLG and pull out EN MASSE after one season of NASL?
Something doesn't add up there.
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On August 14 2011 04:35 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 04:10 jackthelad wrote:On August 14 2011 03:48 Mordiford wrote:On August 14 2011 03:47 jackthelad wrote:On August 14 2011 03:44 Mordiford wrote:On August 14 2011 03:33 jackthelad wrote:
The NASL are light-weights. Its nothing to do with the actual deal, its because they pubically share details of the negotiations. Has anyone else realised just how bad that is? The Koreans must think they're dealing with a bunch of school kids. The NASL really has lost any moral, ethical or commerical high ground by doing that. We're talking about business dealings here. if contracts were actually in place they'd possibly be exposed to litigation by such behaviour. Seriously, think about it...that press release was the work of a sulking chlid! The NASL has a lot of growing up to do. Who cares if the koreans are in it or not...the koreans don't need it, anymore than the US NBA basketball teams need to go and play in Outer Mongolia's basketball competition. What the flying fuck are you talking about? There were contracts in place, but they aren't pursuing legal action thus far. What you rather they do? "Hey guys, Koreans decided to peace out, can't tell you why!" Obviously they have to explain the goings on behind the decision for the Koreans to withdraw or else everyone is confused and speculation will run rampant. Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense. I'm talking about the fact that you dont make details of negotiations public just because you didn't get what you wanted. This common business sense. even if things fall apart and you walk away from each other, you should still have the decency to respect the privacy of the negotiations. To me this proves the NASL are light-weights, is there anyone with any business acumen in that organisation? Once again, what was the other option? "The Koreans left, we can't tell you why, they just left because they didn't want to compete in our league" Speculation would run rampant and you'd have an even bigger shitstorm on your hand. I hope to heaven you're trolling. Not trolling, just expressing my opinion that the NASL are wrong to release those details. . I wonder if the contracts had confidentiality clauses in them? guess we'll never know, unless the NASL decides to make those public as well next time they get upset. Seriously, am I the only one that realises that was a really bad look? maybe I am. thats cool. But organisations that deal with the NASL now need to be aware that their negotiations might be made public. Sponsors beware also... I dont think the big corporates will take that kind of crap lightly. Could be their days are numbered unless they get some maturity in the management team... They didn't release contractual details, they released details of negotiations, and I think they were perfectly right to do so. How do you know they've released all the details? For all we know, they could have only released the bare minimum required to understand the situation. I don't want to use the word obligated, but I think it is good that they have expressed the situation to the public. You ahve to remember that many people are fans of NASL and have preordered season 2 tickets...this is something they would want to know about, and would want to know why it's happening and what the NASL did to prevent it. I dont' want to jump to conclusions, but I feel like you're angry about the backlash people have against SC2Con and are blaming it on NASL doing what it should have done...in which case, I ask you the question, don't you think SC2Con deserves a lot of the negative feedback? Is it not possible that they are conducting themselves in an unprofessional way by signing contracts and pulling out last minute, causing great damage to the NASL tournament and its viewers? I mean, I'm all for this let's not turn this into a hate-fest, but sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. I think NASL released a fairly objective statement, maybe with 1-2 words that could have been changed. But if Sc2Con looks bad, maybe it's because they were bad?
thanks - appreciate this much more considered post. My point remains and is actually highlighted in your first para though.
The NASL has released details of negotiations, and how do we know they've released all the details? - exactly! we don't. Every story has 2 sides.
In my experience of contractual dealings the first thing that's agreed upon is that the negotiations surrounding the contract (even in the event of one party defaulting) are kept confidential.
This is paramount, particularly in such a small niche market place. Parties need to know that they can negotiate in confidence. Just because one contract turns bad (and who knows really why it did - perhaps communcication difficulties in these early days of working together) doesn't mean they won't be able to work together in future.
One thing guaranteed to stop them working together in future though, is mis-trust.
The NASL would have been much better off using the opportunity to establish a real position of trust and actually a position of power if they were in fact in the right, they could call on the perceived "favour" they were doing the Koreans and lack of the other party's professionalism to acheive a stronger bargaining position in the future.
They've blown all that by getting bitter and breaching confidentiality. This is the mark of knee-jerk decision making and some poor executive skills somewhere. Probably because they're young. Who knows? Its all specualtion. Like much of this thread.
Some facts remain though - The Korean superstars that everyone wanted to see are not participating in the NASL and the NASL has decided that in their explanation they'd release confidential (in my opinion) negotiations. Thats poor.
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On August 14 2011 04:44 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 04:37 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 14 2011 04:29 Grr Arr Rawr wrote:On August 14 2011 04:10 jackthelad wrote:
But organisations that deal with the NASL now need to be aware that their negotiations might be made public. Sponsors beware also... I dont think the big corporates will take that kind of crap lightly. Could be their days are numbered unless they get some maturity in the management team... Yeah, guys, he's actually right about that. Noone will want to deal with NASL knowing what happens if you break a contract with them. ... ... ... No, he's not right. There is almost always an official statement following any two companies' separation. It is not unheard of...it's actually the most common practice. It's unheard of to NOT see an official statement. I think he was being sarcastic.
Yeah, bro, l2sarcasm. =P I thought the italics and excessive use of ellipses made the sarcasm pretty blatant.
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On August 14 2011 01:32 Figgy wrote:
This is NOT a good deal from NASL, regardless of what anyone says.
1st: Koreans play a horrible times, this alone screws up what is most important in the first place, their actually KOREAN practice.
2nd: You have to pay a $500 security deposit that you don't see for another 5 months, if at all
3rd: $2000 (If nasl is even being truthful about this new amount) DOES NOT pay for their trip! The plane ticket alone is probably around $1200. This doesn't include the visa, this doesn't include the hotels. If you are knocked out in the BO3, you are LOSING money. Even if you make your trip exactly $2000 somehow, it goes onto the next point
4th: You are playing for an extremely small amount of time.Knocked out in first round? Not only are you out a ton of $$, but you just spent a week in North America doing dick all. You could have been at home practicing, or having a nice relaxing vacation somewhere else you'd rather be.
There is a reason Koreans are signing up for MLG left and right, and paying their own trips. First and formost, the koreans that are invited to MLG have their trips paid for them. Period. This alone gives them incentive to come. As well, the koreans are paying their own cash to show up! Because they actually get to play the damn game when they arrive (outside Alica, lolol)
I really wish people would at least skim through the thread before posting. You always know people haven't read it thoroughly when they post stuff like this.
1) The times were changed for Season 2, mainly to be more accommodating solely to the Koreans.
2) Yes, and you do see the security deposit granted that you abide by the rules, show up on time, or notify ahead of time when you don't show up. People forget that it actually costs thousands of dollars to run a studio, all the staff, and stuff. A deposit ensures that players take this as seriously as NASL does, because it makes them have something to lose, which NASL always has when someone doesn't show up without notice. It's a fairly common business practice, and I think if Koreans shouldn't mind it if want to be considered as professionals globally as deposits are standard.
3) I HIGHLY doubt they would lie. Seriously. As for VISA, Koreans don't need VISA's for the United States.
As for the costs, at the very most, they would maybe lose 100-200 dollars if they're not careful with their money. Combine that with the precarious situation of Korean teams at the moment...where they desperately need sponsors because Korea is starved of them...it makes no sense why they would not risk that 100-200. The Western exposure to Western sponsors alone is worth more than 100-200 dollars.
It's risking a little in short-term for a big gain in the long-term.
4) Koreans signing up left and right for MLG? MLG brings top 4 players and pay for their expenses.
When you look at the total in money, NASL is actually spending MORE to bring Koreans...about 16,000, on top of a prize pool of $100,000 which at least a part of would definitely go to a Korean. The NASL is being MORE generous on a smaller budget.
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On August 14 2011 04:43 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 04:37 akalarry wrote:
what's the point of the security deposit if there's a contract? What's the point of a contract if there's a security deposit? I think nasl could've just required the security deposit first as the players were signing up, so they have "realistic" leverage.
looks like the security deposit is worth more than the contract lol. a big oopsie by nasl. Good point. But it'd be hard to justify why you're charging so much, upfront, immediately, when you are supposedly inviting players to play in your league...or am I wrong, is there a similar situation like this in any other professional competition?
i can see why they have it, but then i can also see why it would be way too much for some people. especially for a team, having 5 guys participate will cost 2,500 dollars that you won't get back for 5 months. it's seems like that's a lot of money that koreans just don't have. their sponsors would most likely not pay for it as it's not in their best interests (the korean sponsors only operate in korea). the best bet would be to acquire more international sponsors.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2011 04:51 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 04:43 Daniel C wrote:On August 14 2011 04:37 akalarry wrote:
what's the point of the security deposit if there's a contract? What's the point of a contract if there's a security deposit? I think nasl could've just required the security deposit first as the players were signing up, so they have "realistic" leverage.
looks like the security deposit is worth more than the contract lol. a big oopsie by nasl. Good point. But it'd be hard to justify why you're charging so much, upfront, immediately, when you are supposedly inviting players to play in your league...or am I wrong, is there a similar situation like this in any other professional competition? i can see why they have it, but then i can also see why it would be way too much for some people. especially for a team, having 5 guys participate will cost 2,500 dollars that you won't get back for 5 months. it's seems like that's a lot of money that koreans just don't have. their sponsors would most likely not pay for it as it's not in their best interests (the korean sponsors only operate in korea). the best bet would be to acquire more international sponsors.
I don't think they should get rid of deposits, but maybe they should adopt some kind of loan/lien program for struggling teams (and they would have to prove they are struggling).
Basically, deposit is bypassed at the start of the season. At the end of the season, the team would have to pay any fines they have accrued. If they refuse to pay, then NASL has a legal way of getting its money without having to go through a lengthy and expensive breach of contact lawsuit.
Makes perfect sense as it makes the team want to follow the rules as there are consequences, yet it also doesn't put hardship on financially-unstable teams.
Another solution is why don't any of these teams take out their own loans to pay for security deposits? I mean, they're returned at the end anyway so it's not like they would be losing any money. I don't know what it's like in Korea but many loan companies do no interest for 6 months, and that's plenty time?
- Basically this shouldn't be a problem, as there are ways to work around it on the Koreans' end. It seems that they are more quick to make demands rather than put in the effort to meet obligations that are asked of ALL players.
White-Ra bought his own 1500 plane ticket, his own hotel room, paid his deposit, got knocked out in first round and is perfectly happy about returning for Season 2.
This is an issue of entitlement, not NASL.
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Koreans dont think it is worth it to invest time and money in participating at NASL, well fine, i also dont think is worth it to pay 600$ for an Ipad. You cant tell me im stupid for not wanting to pay 600$ because YOU think is worth it.
So it doesnt matter if YOU think is worth it to for koreans to come to NASL, they clearly dont think so, and there is nothing you can do about it.
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On August 14 2011 04:59 whateverpeeps wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2011 04:51 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 04:43 Daniel C wrote:On August 14 2011 04:37 akalarry wrote:
what's the point of the security deposit if there's a contract? What's the point of a contract if there's a security deposit? I think nasl could've just required the security deposit first as the players were signing up, so they have "realistic" leverage.
looks like the security deposit is worth more than the contract lol. a big oopsie by nasl. Good point. But it'd be hard to justify why you're charging so much, upfront, immediately, when you are supposedly inviting players to play in your league...or am I wrong, is there a similar situation like this in any other professional competition? i can see why they have it, but then i can also see why it would be way too much for some people. especially for a team, having 5 guys participate will cost 2,500 dollars that you won't get back for 5 months. it's seems like that's a lot of money that koreans just don't have. their sponsors would most likely not pay for it as it's not in their best interests (the korean sponsors only operate in korea). the best bet would be to acquire more international sponsors. I don't think they should away with the deposits, but maybe they should adopt some kind of loan/lien program for struggling teams (and they would have to prove they are struggling financially). If the team breaks rules, it gets listed. At the end of the season, the team would have to pay any fines they have accrued. If they refuse to pay, then you have a more legal leverage to get the money more easily instead of going through a breach of contract lawsuit. Makes perfect sense as it makes the team want to follow the rules as there are consequences, yet it also doesn't put hardship on financially-unstable teams. Another solution is why don't any of these teams take out their own loans to pay for security deposits? I mean, they're returned at the end anyway so it's not like they would be losing any money. I don't know what it's like in Korea but many loan companies do no interest for 6months, and that's plenty time? - Basically this shouldn't be a problem, as there are ways to work around it on the Koreans' end. It seems that they are more quick to make demands rather than put in the effort to meet obligations that are asked of ALL players. White-Ra bought his own 1500 plane ticket, his own hotel room, paid his deposit, got knocked out in first round and is perfectly happy about returning for Season 2. This is an issue of entitlement, not NASL.
I dunno...don't you need to show some proof of income before you can take out loans, even small ones?
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On August 14 2011 05:01 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 04:59 whateverpeeps wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2011 04:51 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 04:43 Daniel C wrote:On August 14 2011 04:37 akalarry wrote:
what's the point of the security deposit if there's a contract? What's the point of a contract if there's a security deposit? I think nasl could've just required the security deposit first as the players were signing up, so they have "realistic" leverage.
looks like the security deposit is worth more than the contract lol. a big oopsie by nasl. Good point. But it'd be hard to justify why you're charging so much, upfront, immediately, when you are supposedly inviting players to play in your league...or am I wrong, is there a similar situation like this in any other professional competition? i can see why they have it, but then i can also see why it would be way too much for some people. especially for a team, having 5 guys participate will cost 2,500 dollars that you won't get back for 5 months. it's seems like that's a lot of money that koreans just don't have. their sponsors would most likely not pay for it as it's not in their best interests (the korean sponsors only operate in korea). the best bet would be to acquire more international sponsors. I don't think they should away with the deposits, but maybe they should adopt some kind of loan/lien program for struggling teams (and they would have to prove they are struggling financially). If the team breaks rules, it gets listed. At the end of the season, the team would have to pay any fines they have accrued. If they refuse to pay, then you have a more legal leverage to get the money more easily instead of going through a breach of contract lawsuit. Makes perfect sense as it makes the team want to follow the rules as there are consequences, yet it also doesn't put hardship on financially-unstable teams. Another solution is why don't any of these teams take out their own loans to pay for security deposits? I mean, they're returned at the end anyway so it's not like they would be losing any money. I don't know what it's like in Korea but many loan companies do no interest for 6months, and that's plenty time? - Basically this shouldn't be a problem, as there are ways to work around it on the Koreans' end. It seems that they are more quick to make demands rather than put in the effort to meet obligations that are asked of ALL players. White-Ra bought his own 1500 plane ticket, his own hotel room, paid his deposit, got knocked out in first round and is perfectly happy about returning for Season 2. This is an issue of entitlement, not NASL. I dunno...don't you need to show some proof of income before you can take out loans, even small ones?
Depends on which bank you're working with. But, I think you can make a prosal saying that the deposit is going to be used for a chance to get a lot of money. I guess, I don't know how Korean banks work, so I'm asking. But I know this is possible in the US, so I assume it could be possible in Korea too.
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NASL, is there any word from SK regarding MC's eligibilty?
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On August 14 2011 04:37 akalarry wrote:
what's the point of the security deposit if there's a contract? What's the point of a contract if there's a security deposit? I think nasl could've just required the security deposit first as the players were signing up, so they have "realistic" leverage.
looks like the security deposit is worth more than the contract lol. a big oopsie by nasl.
Actually the security deposit gives the contract worth. Break the contract, take money out of the security deposit.
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I hate to say it but nasl might be boring now 
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On August 14 2011 04:07 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 03:47 gehgrfhgrh wrote:
I really fells like NASL is run by a bunch of students out of a garage. They wanted to create a big tournament and announced a huge prizepool to attract koreans and to hype it all up - but it failed horrible and now they don't have the money/sponsors they thought they would have. Lol how has NASL "failed horribly"? Are you saying it's NASL's fault the Koreans are withdrawing because NASL doesn't have enough money? I really have to question your critical thinking skills.
The production and organization of NASL was just really bad. They should have lowered the prize pool and improve the Production/Format/Overall Organization.
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Meh, good games will come with or without koreans, similar skilled players is really the most important part. Might not be as high level, but Im excited for NASL still.
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The funny part is that not only have the koreans shot themselves in the foot, I also don't think they have much else to do over there aside from practicing.
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On August 14 2011 05:13 Spray wrote: I hate to say it but nasl might be boring now
I don't think it'll be boring. I just see this as one less opportunity for our players to compete with their players.
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On August 14 2011 05:15 gehgrfhgrh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 04:07 Doodsmack wrote:On August 14 2011 03:47 gehgrfhgrh wrote:
I really fells like NASL is run by a bunch of students out of a garage. They wanted to create a big tournament and announced a huge prizepool to attract koreans and to hype it all up - but it failed horrible and now they don't have the money/sponsors they thought they would have. Lol how has NASL "failed horribly"? Are you saying it's NASL's fault the Koreans are withdrawing because NASL doesn't have enough money? I really have to question your critical thinking skills. The production and organization of NASL was just really bad. They should have lowered the prize pool and improve the Production/Format/Overall Organization.
There were sound issues that were fixed in the third week, and sound issues in the first 2 days of the finals. The video and video quality were impeccable. I don't have any problems with format or organization...I think that is subjective and you can't say it's the fault of the league.
So I don't see your argument that it "failed horribly." In fact, it consistently had at least 16,000 viewers per day and 85,000 viewers during their finals.
More importantly, NASL was better than other leagues in their first seasons in terms of production. This is what Spunky, who is in SC2Con, had to say about production quality of another league early on:
"Since this is the first time anything like this has happened, GomTV is running into a lot of unexpected problems and are always doing their best on trying to make things work according to their budget. However, it seems like the fans and other organizations only seem to be criticizing their mistakes instead of everything that they are doing for all the players and for the e-sports market. "
So if he felt that way, and NASL is doing even better, then, I don't think that's the reason why Sc2Con made the demands that it did.
I mean, that doesn't even make sense. What do the Koreans care about whether or not NASL has sound issues as long as they get paid?
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I'm definitely on NASL's side in this matter - whether or not NASL are offsetting the cost enough to encourage Koreans to come over, the Korean teams should be more interested in becoming part of the global community.
It's this mentality that's keeping the communities so seperate and encouraging top Koreans to switch to foreign teams.
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EPT
