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On August 04 2011 21:11 poorbeggarman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 21:05 hyptonic wrote:On August 04 2011 21:03 holycrapitsTony wrote:
I was wondering why TSL was dropping players like flies. Sounds like Coach Lee isn't nearly as nice of a guy as people would let on. I'm still not passing any judgment until I hear a bit more about this story. People were very kneejerk about the EG scandal and now they're flip flopping to support them in this whole thing. Maybe if we would all relax and wait to hear all of the facts, we could support better conclusions. Well, SangHo and Clide liked Coach Lee and TSL enough to give their money back to him. The cases of FD/Tester/Puma were a bit strange to me tbh. FD/Tester - Already left 1 team, admit to not playing much Puma - First SC2 success ever at big foreign event -- wants more Or, they were forced to give him the money back.Probably wasn't much anyway, since he lied to them that they weren't getting money from sponsors. FD, Tester and Puma leaving is just additional proof that TSL management is rotten to the core, ha! And now y'all getting juked by another sob story.
That's why SangHo and Clide talk about how much they love TSL right? FD/Tester and Puma stories are completely separated. It's not about being rotten. It's about being financially strained. And frankly, I don't know what FD/Tester are doing. They don't play, they aren't top players anymore. They don't deserve the money they want.
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On August 04 2011 21:15 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 21:14 xBillehx wrote:On August 04 2011 21:12 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 21:10 Morfildur wrote:On August 04 2011 20:59 TheSilverfox wrote:On August 04 2011 20:44 Tachion wrote:On August 04 2011 20:37 TheSilverfox wrote:
Which teams are members of the SC2 Players Association?
What I can see SlayerS isn't a member of the association as well, is there a reason why it is so? You can read Jessica's response about it here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236783Just search for association and you'll come upon the paragraph, it only really talks about boxer being involved in it though, and not why slayers as a whole is not participating. I've read that and it's more an article about why BoxeR chose not to be chairman of the organisation. I'm still curious about why one of the major teams in Korea, SlayerS, decide not to join the association. It is kind of weird when two major teams are not part of the player association :/. I would assume that joining the sc2pa is done by the players, not by the manager. The sc2pa looks a lot like a union to me (and i'm not opposed to that as long as the power doesn't get abused), so if the players don't think about joining the PA, no reason for the team to be listed in it. I would assume that if a SlayerS member would like the team to be in the sc2pa, SlayerS would join. If the players are happy anyways, why join? More importantly, what's the point of joining an organization that has absolutely no power at all in terms of tournaments, league and player trading control??? They do have power. They banned Rain from participating in the GSL for two seasons. They're just a lot more lenient and have a players association section for players to have a voice. Eh, wasnt it GOM that banned rain. I dont remember the PA having anything to do with that.
Augh! People are getting quite confused. S2Con = Coaches(teams), Players Association & GOM all together. S2con is the KeSPA like entity for SC2 so they make the rules and decisions, but GOM is part of them as well.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On August 04 2011 21:16 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 21:15 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 21:14 xBillehx wrote:On August 04 2011 21:12 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 21:10 Morfildur wrote:On August 04 2011 20:59 TheSilverfox wrote:On August 04 2011 20:44 Tachion wrote:On August 04 2011 20:37 TheSilverfox wrote:
Which teams are members of the SC2 Players Association?
What I can see SlayerS isn't a member of the association as well, is there a reason why it is so? You can read Jessica's response about it here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236783Just search for association and you'll come upon the paragraph, it only really talks about boxer being involved in it though, and not why slayers as a whole is not participating. I've read that and it's more an article about why BoxeR chose not to be chairman of the organisation. I'm still curious about why one of the major teams in Korea, SlayerS, decide not to join the association. It is kind of weird when two major teams are not part of the player association :/. I would assume that joining the sc2pa is done by the players, not by the manager. The sc2pa looks a lot like a union to me (and i'm not opposed to that as long as the power doesn't get abused), so if the players don't think about joining the PA, no reason for the team to be listed in it. I would assume that if a SlayerS member would like the team to be in the sc2pa, SlayerS would join. If the players are happy anyways, why join? More importantly, what's the point of joining an organization that has absolutely no power at all in terms of tournaments, league and player trading control??? They do have power. They banned Rain from participating in the GSL for two seasons. They're just a lot more lenient and have a players association section for players to have a voice. Eh, wasnt it GOM that banned rain. I dont remember the PA having anything to do with that. Augh! People are getting quite confused. S2Con = Coaches(teams), Players Association & GOM all together. S2con is the KeSPA like entity for SC2 so they make the rules and decisions, but GOM is part of them as well.
Yeah I had no idea how that all worked so just assumed it was SC2PA. I've changed the main body of the text and request a mod to change the title as well. I'll include your post to help clarify.
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Reading TSL's side, I get a feeling, FD and Trickster werent just lazy but just pure pain in the butt for other teammates and team. But unless TSL member confirms this story, who knows what's true at this point.
There is no excuse for not paying the guaranteed sum however.
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The player association and s2con was formed to protect the rights of players and teams.
They don't govern the tournaments. GOM does, in partnership with them.
I think.
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On August 04 2011 21:15 MrSweetNess wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 21:12 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 21:10 Morfildur wrote:On August 04 2011 20:59 TheSilverfox wrote:On August 04 2011 20:44 Tachion wrote:On August 04 2011 20:37 TheSilverfox wrote:
Which teams are members of the SC2 Players Association?
What I can see SlayerS isn't a member of the association as well, is there a reason why it is so? You can read Jessica's response about it here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236783Just search for association and you'll come upon the paragraph, it only really talks about boxer being involved in it though, and not why slayers as a whole is not participating. I've read that and it's more an article about why BoxeR chose not to be chairman of the organisation. I'm still curious about why one of the major teams in Korea, SlayerS, decide not to join the association. It is kind of weird when two major teams are not part of the player association :/. I would assume that joining the sc2pa is done by the players, not by the manager. The sc2pa looks a lot like a union to me (and i'm not opposed to that as long as the power doesn't get abused), so if the players don't think about joining the PA, no reason for the team to be listed in it. I would assume that if a SlayerS member would like the team to be in the sc2pa, SlayerS would join. If the players are happy anyways, why join? More importantly, what's the point of joining an organization that has absolutely no power at all in terms of tournaments, league and player trading control??? The OP said that they could have been forbidden to play in tournaments but they chose not to do that so the competition does not get crippled. Or at least that is my understanding of that.
I think that it was SC2PA could have banned them, not SCcon
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I think it's a really deplorable move by Trickster and Fruitdealer to not practice and continue collecting salary. Yes there might be 1 thing standing in the contract but Starcraft 2 is struggling in Korea right now, the money is extremely tight (many managers having to constantly think about keeping their balance positive instead of being able to focus on building their team) and many many many pro-gamers are not getting what they deserve. There is an extreme depth in the korean player pool and it makes me sad to see Trickster and FruitDealer in Code S and A respectively when there are literally hundreds of other players we barely know anything of, who are more skilled and could provide us with better games.
They work their asses off, training 10 hours/day for the better part of their youth, and all for very few recognition / money.
If FD and Trickster have decided to stop practising they should, imo, retire and let younger and more motivated players take their spot. I mean ... they haven't shown good games in what .. almost a year now? :/
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And I was wondering why Rekrul had called Coach Lee shady during the whole PuMa to EG shebang~
Still, Fruitdealer was known for heavy drinking. Wonder how this really went down in TSL House.
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On August 04 2011 21:16 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 21:15 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 21:14 xBillehx wrote:On August 04 2011 21:12 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 21:10 Morfildur wrote:On August 04 2011 20:59 TheSilverfox wrote:On August 04 2011 20:44 Tachion wrote:On August 04 2011 20:37 TheSilverfox wrote:
Which teams are members of the SC2 Players Association?
What I can see SlayerS isn't a member of the association as well, is there a reason why it is so? You can read Jessica's response about it here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236783Just search for association and you'll come upon the paragraph, it only really talks about boxer being involved in it though, and not why slayers as a whole is not participating. I've read that and it's more an article about why BoxeR chose not to be chairman of the organisation. I'm still curious about why one of the major teams in Korea, SlayerS, decide not to join the association. It is kind of weird when two major teams are not part of the player association :/. I would assume that joining the sc2pa is done by the players, not by the manager. The sc2pa looks a lot like a union to me (and i'm not opposed to that as long as the power doesn't get abused), so if the players don't think about joining the PA, no reason for the team to be listed in it. I would assume that if a SlayerS member would like the team to be in the sc2pa, SlayerS would join. If the players are happy anyways, why join? More importantly, what's the point of joining an organization that has absolutely no power at all in terms of tournaments, league and player trading control??? They do have power. They banned Rain from participating in the GSL for two seasons. They're just a lot more lenient and have a players association section for players to have a voice. Eh, wasnt it GOM that banned rain. I dont remember the PA having anything to do with that. Augh! People are getting quite confused. S2Con = Coaches(teams), Players Association & GOM all together. S2con is the KeSPA like entity for SC2 so they make the rules and decisions, but GOM is part of them as well.
Um, maybe they have connections together but im 99% sure GomTV isn't a part of S2Con
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On August 04 2011 21:19 insaneMicro wrote:
And I was wondering why Rekrul had called Coach Lee shady during the whole PuMa to EG shebang~
Still, Fruitdealer was known for heavy drinking. Wonder how this really went down in TSL House.
Like I said before, you have to take it with a grain of salt. Half-truths.
In either case, I wouldn't want FD or Trickster on my team either and they are only getting slapped on the wrist.
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On August 04 2011 21:18 Yemack wrote:
Reading TSL's side, I get a feeling, FD and Trickster werent just lazy but just pure pain in the butt for other teammates and team. But unless TSL member confirms this story, who knows what's true at this point.
There is no excuse for not paying the guaranteed sum however.
Then fire them. Coach Lee has a really bad way of handling anything problematic. His entire handling of the Puma situation was really horrible as well.
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On August 04 2011 21:16 hyptonic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 21:11 poorbeggarman wrote:On August 04 2011 21:05 hyptonic wrote:On August 04 2011 21:03 holycrapitsTony wrote:
I was wondering why TSL was dropping players like flies. Sounds like Coach Lee isn't nearly as nice of a guy as people would let on. I'm still not passing any judgment until I hear a bit more about this story. People were very kneejerk about the EG scandal and now they're flip flopping to support them in this whole thing. Maybe if we would all relax and wait to hear all of the facts, we could support better conclusions. Well, SangHo and Clide liked Coach Lee and TSL enough to give their money back to him. The cases of FD/Tester/Puma were a bit strange to me tbh. FD/Tester - Already left 1 team, admit to not playing much Puma - First SC2 success ever at big foreign event -- wants more Or, they were forced to give him the money back.Probably wasn't much anyway, since he lied to them that they weren't getting money from sponsors. FD, Tester and Puma leaving is just additional proof that TSL management is rotten to the core, ha! And now y'all getting juked by another sob story. That's why SangHo and Clide talk about how much they love TSL right? FD/Tester and Puma stories are completely separated. It's not about being rotten. It's about being financially strained. And frankly, I don't know what FD/Tester are doing. They don't play, they aren't top players anymore. They don't deserve the money they want.
Dude, I'd take FD,tester and Puma's stories over SangHo,Clide and Mr.Lee.
1.Spontaneously witholding wages
2.Manager lied about sponsor funding
3.Slandering players
4.Using images of former players
TSL not credible.
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i come for the starcraft, but i stay for the drama.
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So if the TSL players were not on contracts.. How would FD and Trickster be able to fight over unpaid salaries?
Wouldn't it be that if all there was, was a verbal understanding that would not be sufficient enough to legally fight for unpaid or withheld money as there is no legal obligation to pay?
I'm not advocating for either party, I am simply just confused.
I suppose maybe what is being looked at here is that the coach withheld the money without telling the players that it had come in, but was just rather saying it hadn't come in?
I'm really unsure of this whole thing, TSL lately has seemed really unstable and kind of, breaking down.
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I can make similar statements about FD and tester bud. It goes both ways, the fact they made this ruling swiftly and not all parties were present. I can understand why Lee wouldn't want to deal with such bullshit.
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On August 04 2011 21:22 poorbeggarman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 21:16 hyptonic wrote:On August 04 2011 21:11 poorbeggarman wrote:On August 04 2011 21:05 hyptonic wrote:On August 04 2011 21:03 holycrapitsTony wrote:
I was wondering why TSL was dropping players like flies. Sounds like Coach Lee isn't nearly as nice of a guy as people would let on. I'm still not passing any judgment until I hear a bit more about this story. People were very kneejerk about the EG scandal and now they're flip flopping to support them in this whole thing. Maybe if we would all relax and wait to hear all of the facts, we could support better conclusions. Well, SangHo and Clide liked Coach Lee and TSL enough to give their money back to him. The cases of FD/Tester/Puma were a bit strange to me tbh. FD/Tester - Already left 1 team, admit to not playing much Puma - First SC2 success ever at big foreign event -- wants more Or, they were forced to give him the money back.Probably wasn't much anyway, since he lied to them that they weren't getting money from sponsors. FD, Tester and Puma leaving is just additional proof that TSL management is rotten to the core, ha! And now y'all getting juked by another sob story. That's why SangHo and Clide talk about how much they love TSL right? FD/Tester and Puma stories are completely separated. It's not about being rotten. It's about being financially strained. And frankly, I don't know what FD/Tester are doing. They don't play, they aren't top players anymore. They don't deserve the money they want. Dude, I'd take FD,tester and Puma's stories over SangHo,Clide and Mr.Lee. 1.Spontaneously witholding wages 2.Manager lied about sponsor funding 3.Slandering players 4.Using images of former players TSL not credible.
Ummm, FD/Tester/Puma haven't given any stories. Wtf are you talking about?
And besides, why would you take the stories of nonpracting teamhoppers over loyal players who give back?
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Regardless of FD's willingness to practice/drinking/etc. as a manager Lee should have either dropped him, or continue to pay him. Keeping him on the team and using him undoubtedly for the sponsorships he brought in during the early days of SC2 is wrong, and should be punished.
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On August 04 2011 21:22 poorbeggarman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 21:16 hyptonic wrote:On August 04 2011 21:11 poorbeggarman wrote:On August 04 2011 21:05 hyptonic wrote:On August 04 2011 21:03 holycrapitsTony wrote:
I was wondering why TSL was dropping players like flies. Sounds like Coach Lee isn't nearly as nice of a guy as people would let on. I'm still not passing any judgment until I hear a bit more about this story. People were very kneejerk about the EG scandal and now they're flip flopping to support them in this whole thing. Maybe if we would all relax and wait to hear all of the facts, we could support better conclusions. Well, SangHo and Clide liked Coach Lee and TSL enough to give their money back to him. The cases of FD/Tester/Puma were a bit strange to me tbh. FD/Tester - Already left 1 team, admit to not playing much Puma - First SC2 success ever at big foreign event -- wants more Or, they were forced to give him the money back.Probably wasn't much anyway, since he lied to them that they weren't getting money from sponsors. FD, Tester and Puma leaving is just additional proof that TSL management is rotten to the core, ha! And now y'all getting juked by another sob story. That's why SangHo and Clide talk about how much they love TSL right? FD/Tester and Puma stories are completely separated. It's not about being rotten. It's about being financially strained. And frankly, I don't know what FD/Tester are doing. They don't play, they aren't top players anymore. They don't deserve the money they want. Dude, I'd take FD,tester and Puma's stories over SangHo,Clide and Mr.Lee. 1.Spontaneously witholding wages 2.Manager lied about sponsor funding 3.Slandering players 4.Using images of former players TSL not credible.
There's no reason to believe that SangHo or Clide have anything to do with any of those things you listed. All I know about them is that they've apparently given back the money that TSL has paid them to help support their team, which is, to me, always a very honorable gesture.
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On August 04 2011 21:16 JonSki wrote:Show nested quote +If the said reparations are not paid in full, SC2PA will expel TSL and take further measures. Your title says TSL expelled from SC2 Playes Association, this sentance says they are currently not so why try to shock me and then to see that this was false  they will take actions but havent actually expelled them.
this sentence is from an older statement, in case they don't pay up, Lee basically said now he will not follow suit and just leave SC2con, so they kicked them out on the spot I think.
Is it just me or does that read as if the oh-so-good Coach Lee who wasn't correctly approached in the Puma affair, is rather likely to always throw a hissy-fit every time something doesn't go his way??
He seemed to respond well to Puma and then slander him a day later and oh look,
he receives money from the sponsor and lets them advertise with the players, and tells the players there is no money from the sponsirs and with hold their wages.
they leave with a press release on mutual terms, and behind their back he slanders them aswell.
I see a pattern in the TSL management emerging. really sad
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EPT
