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On August 04 2011 20:58 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:56 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 20:54 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 20:53 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 20:52 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 20:51 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 20:49 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 20:48 b_unnies wrote:
Honestly I think what Coach Lee did is fair. Trickster/Fruitdealer don't practice? They don't get paid. Do you expect your boss to pay you if you don't show up for work either? I agree with this. If they want to get paid they should earn it. Sir, you have summed it up perfectly, but legally, it's still wrong, that's why they got expelled. Legally? There's no contracts. There is Source? Source for there isn't a contract? Hell they're one of the first team to have salaries for players, ofc there are gonna be contracts for players (TLPD) Puma didnt have a contract, most korean players didnt have contracts. There was nothing siad about contracts when FD/trickster left TSL weeks ago, only agreements. There was a sc2pa meeting after the EG/Puma incident where they agreed that they should all contract their players. I have yet to see somewhere that there was contracts for any player on korean teams.
.Coach Lee said in his interview that TSL paid FD/Tester through salaries and everyone else in stipends ( which i suppose he meant informal allowances?)
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I'm a bit confused here - So, back when we had the EG/Puma situation, people were discussing contracts, and it seemed like the consensus was that PuMa wasn't actually officially contracted, which made EG able to simply pick him up like that. On the other hand, with this situation, are both FD and Tester on a contract which makes them legally entitled to payment? So, was FD, Tester, and possibly Clide on contracts, with the rest of the TSL players not on contracts? I'm trying to figure out the whole contract situation since it seems to vary from player to player in TSL. I guess the post above me also supports most of my guess - salaries vs. stipends, etc.
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How does this affect them? TSL doesn't dissolve? They can still compete in GSL right :S?
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Wow....shit just got real.
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On August 04 2011 20:57 xBillehx wrote:Just some tidbits of information: S2con = SC2's version of KeSPA = Coaches, players association & GOM. They have the power to ban people from GSL/GSTL, make the rules for SC2 atm (referee's) & arbitrate disputes but are pretty lenient on most things. With TSL removed, it's now made up of FoU (Now FXO?), IM, oGs, Prime, ZeNEX, NSHoseo, StarTale & MVP. (SlayerS is not part of this but more like a partner) SC2pa = players association. The players have a voice in the association that makes the rules so when there's a dispute between players and their teams, they're able to bring it up to s2con for help. The players association is mainly represented by  Junwi, who's the president voted in by most sc2 players at the time. (last year)
But is TSL removed from the S2con? The article only talks about the SC2pa and that TSL is not a part of the player association anymore.
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On August 04 2011 20:45 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:41 Ozcollo wrote:
Gee golly, so this is what all that Korean team "family" was about. /sarcasm
In all seriousness though, how does this effect their participation in tournaments? I was unaware of any kind of governing body over the teams there. Show nested quote +However, the SC2PA does not wish to cripple the competition in Korea and is not considering any sanctions regarding their participation in leagues. It's in the OP. 
Nah not really, unless I'm missing something stupidly obvious (I may very well be). It just seems like a mediating entity between teams/players. I didn't see anything about their function outside of that. I'm just asking if there's other functions they serve outside of mediating, and I don't see that in the OP.
Edit: Thanks for the actual explanation xBillehx!
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On August 04 2011 21:01 Benjef wrote:
How does this affect them? TSL doesn't dissolve? They can still compete in GSL right :S?
Well at the moment from what I can see it doesn't really affect them at all except lowers their reputation a bit.
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On August 04 2011 20:39 cskalias.pbe wrote:
People still siding with coach lee regarding Puma?
No kidding. However, I hope you and everyone else understands that the facts haven't changed about that situation, but there's probably a large shift in moral support.
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On August 04 2011 20:59 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:56 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 20:54 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 20:53 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 20:52 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 20:51 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 20:49 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 20:48 b_unnies wrote:
Honestly I think what Coach Lee did is fair. Trickster/Fruitdealer don't practice? They don't get paid. Do you expect your boss to pay you if you don't show up for work either? I agree with this. If they want to get paid they should earn it. Sir, you have summed it up perfectly, but legally, it's still wrong, that's why they got expelled. Legally? There's no contracts. There is Source? Source for there isn't a contract? Hell they're one of the first team to have salaries for players, ofc there are gonna be contracts for players (TLPD) This is not true. The EG/Puma drama told us that TSL don't have contracts with their players. Even those paid salaries.
If they don't have contracts, they wouldn't even have to put up with all these salaries shit. Let's say i have a part time jobs with no contracts, and say i'm being lazy and not turning up consistently, i'm gonna get paid, simple.
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On August 04 2011 20:55 Fubi wrote:
People need to be rational. This is a separate case from the EG/Puma incident. Even IF Puma wanted to leave TSL due to wages disputes, the argument that EG was in the wrong for approaching the player directly instead of the Coach/Manager still stands logically.
In my mind, I connect the two cases because Fruitdealer and Trickster were originally in oGs and were perhaps lured to TSL by money, though I do not remember any drama posts on the forums.
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I was wondering why TSL was dropping players like flies. Sounds like Coach Lee isn't nearly as nice of a guy as people would let on. I'm still not passing any judgment until I hear a bit more about this story. People were very kneejerk about the EG scandal and now they're flip flopping to support them in this whole thing. Maybe if we would all relax and wait to hear all of the facts, we could support better conclusions.
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Lee isn't a criminal. lmao
The team is under-funded as is and I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to talk about players who were under the same roof. Once again, these guys were there on their own accord (players weren't on contract, just like several other teams) and chose to supply money to make sure the team didn't go belly up. They were donations if you will.
I would like to see proof of their so-called contracts.
If there is one thing coach Lee lacks, it is the ability to pitch the team to sponsors because ultimately he had to do what had to be done by the end of the day. He's always been soft-spoken.
The only reason FD and Trickster moved this motion is because they weren't happy with Lee talking about their time there. It's called freedom of speech. Once again, he shouldn't have to apologize for anything he said. He can say whatever he wants and we'll take it for whatever we want. Defamation of character? Yeah, right.
Verbal agreements mean shit and coach Lee is the scapegoat. Cool. The Korean teams didn't worry about putting everyone under contract until after the Puma fiasco. If anything, they are setting an example with coach Lee. So take it for what it is.
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On August 04 2011 21:02 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:59 pdd wrote:On August 04 2011 20:56 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 20:54 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 20:53 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 20:52 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 20:51 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 20:49 zeru wrote:On August 04 2011 20:48 b_unnies wrote:
Honestly I think what Coach Lee did is fair. Trickster/Fruitdealer don't practice? They don't get paid. Do you expect your boss to pay you if you don't show up for work either? I agree with this. If they want to get paid they should earn it. Sir, you have summed it up perfectly, but legally, it's still wrong, that's why they got expelled. Legally? There's no contracts. There is Source? Source for there isn't a contract? Hell they're one of the first team to have salaries for players, ofc there are gonna be contracts for players (TLPD) This is not true. The EG/Puma drama told us that TSL don't have contracts with their players. Even those paid salaries. If they don't have contracts, they wouldn't even have to put up with all these salaries shit. Let's say i have a part time jobs with no contracts, and say i'm being lazy and not turning up consistently, i'm gonna get paid, simple.
Yeah, but if I don't have a contract, I don't have a legally enforceable ability to force payments.
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On August 04 2011 21:03 holycrapitsTony wrote:
I was wondering why TSL was dropping players like flies. Sounds like Coach Lee isn't nearly as nice of a guy as people would let on. I'm still not passing any judgment until I hear a bit more about this story. People were very kneejerk about the EG scandal and now they're flip flopping to support them in this whole thing. Maybe if we would all relax and wait to hear all of the facts, we could support better conclusions.
Well, SangHo and Clide liked Coach Lee and TSL enough to give their money back to him.
The cases of FD/Tester/Puma were a bit strange to me tbh.
FD/Tester - Already left 1 team, admit to not playing much
Puma - First SC2 success ever at big foreign event -- wants more
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On August 04 2011 20:37 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On the 4th of August, we received a message from Manager Lee saying he/they would withdraw from the SC2PA and therefore we were left with no other choice to announce their expulsion. Coach Lee tells SC2 con that they are withdrawing, so sc2 con decides to expel them
"You're fired!"
"You can't fire me, because I quit!!"
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On August 04 2011 21:01 TheSilverfox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:57 xBillehx wrote:Just some tidbits of information: S2con = SC2's version of KeSPA = Coaches, players association & GOM. They have the power to ban people from GSL/GSTL, make the rules for SC2 atm (referee's) & arbitrate disputes but are pretty lenient on most things. With TSL removed, it's now made up of FoU (Now FXO?), IM, oGs, Prime, ZeNEX, NSHoseo, StarTale & MVP. (SlayerS is not part of this but more like a partner) SC2pa = players association. The players have a voice in the association that makes the rules so when there's a dispute between players and their teams, they're able to bring it up to s2con for help. The players association is mainly represented by Junwi, who's the president voted in by most sc2 players at the time. (last year) But is TSL removed from the S2con? The article only talks about the SC2pa and that TSL is not a part of the player association anymore.
Yes they're no longer part of S2con because they withdrew. Their logo is no longer at the bottom of http://s2con.com/
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I know this is off topic but why did Slayers chose not to join?
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And people said they didn't want a KeSPA equivalent in sc2. Well this is what that kind of organization is there for, so good on them.
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EPT
