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Wow, kinda surprising. Also thanks for letting us know about all that.
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On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant.
First of all I'm not generalizing all Asians or in this case Koreans.
I'm looking at it in a specific setting: An Sc2 team (a niche starting business) with Coach Lee and his team. It was said that he put his own money toward the team and they were close in Brood War days. This means that this is not an extremely professional setting so I'm not putting Koreans down on their business sense.
I'm just saying that by cutting wages instead of firing them, it could means that Coach Lee wanted them to stay with the team but improve on their work ethics.
If he did fire them, imagine the backlash he would be getting instead of this for firing his players which is unprecendented in the case of Code S caliber players like FD and Tester.
For the guys saying that Koreans are shrewd, I'm sure every culture is shrewd in the business setting, but this is not a real business setting yet. Especially for the first team to have known salary in the Sc2 world.
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On August 05 2011 06:22 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:20 moonmeh wrote:On August 05 2011 06:18 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:17 moonmeh wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. What the fuck? I don't know which perspective that is but that aint my view (Korean). Also I'm also kind of very scared of your reasoning there. Stop patronizing our culture please and view this as a really messed up situation no culture condones. 한국인보다 한국을 더 잘 아시나보죠머 ㅋㅋㅋ 좀 어이가 없음 선수가 무슨 노예도 아니고 ㅋㅋㅋ 이렇게 빵터진건 오랬만 한편으로는 동양 이미지가 그런가 싶어서 좀 안타깝기도 하네요.
정말 이런 글 보고 참 빡치죠... 아니 우리가 아무리 존경심이 중요하지만.... 이건... 심하죠
User was warned for this post
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On August 05 2011 06:25 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:18 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 06:14 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:09 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:03 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:01 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:57 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:33 wolfe wrote:
[quote]
Withholding salaries, lying about sponsors, and continuing to use FD/T promotional images... that's fact. Especially the 1st and 3rd. There wouldn't be this argument without the 1st and I've seen the 3rd for myself lol.
I agree, those are facts, but what I said is that the attitude of tester and fd could have been so terrible that it could have snowballed into this. And about the sponsors we know nothing. I guess on this one they had a contract. FD and Tester not being in TSL anymore doesn't mean that their sponsoring contract (I think they're talking about the gskill clip on GSL) becomes null. So for 2/ and 3/ we don't have the elements to properly judge. Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) LoL, dont even want to start the word legal up again here, but I'll say that if that scenario were happening, the employees should be warned and eventually fired if it continues. You dont let them stay in the office throwing the beach ball around (TSL not cutting ties with FD and Tester) But they were fired. no they were not fired. and even if they were fired we are talking about the wages before the departure We don't know, that what I say. Unless you have a source. Done, here's your source"TSL needs to reform. Trickster and FD disagreed with the direction we are heading, so they chose to leave the team. We wish good luck for them in their tournaments. TSL would be paying more efforts." Yeah I know about that, but I interpreted it as a common employer/employee end of contract "we disagree blabla, we parted ways" We don't exactly know if they were fired or they left (contractually I mean). I try not to take side in this, what I say is we don't know enough to judge all this (but the coach sure looks shady). "Trickster and FD disagreed with the direction we are heading, so they chose to leave the team." can be a diplomatic way to say "we fired those lazy asses because they trained 1 hour in 4 monthes" I dont really feel like arguing... but come on. It's not even taking sides, he clearly stated that they chose to leave the team... he could have said something diplomatic like... we chose to part ways with Tester and FD if that was the case. Yeah that's true.
Thank you for being reasonable.
/fans good karma your way, many SC2 wins
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I can't wait to hear Clide/Sangho's reaction to this. They will probably be too professional to give it though.
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On August 05 2011 06:27 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. First of all I'm not generalizing all Asians or in this case Koreans. I'm looking at it in a specific setting: An Sc2 team (a niche starting business) with Coach Lee and his team. It was said that he put his own money toward the team and they were close in Brood War days. This means that this is not an extremely professional setting so I'm not putting Koreans down on their business sense. I'm just saying that by cutting wages instead of firing them, it could means that Coach Lee wanted them to stay with the team but improve on their work ethics. If he did fire them, imagine the backlash he would be getting instead of this for firing his players which is unprecendented in the case of Code S caliber players like FD and Tester. For the guys saying that Koreans are shrewd, I'm sure every culture is shrewd in the business setting, but this is not a real business setting yet. Especially for the first team to have known salary in the Sc2 world.
doesnt make any sense
why would mr. lee say that he cant pay the money and conclude an agreement with fd to postpone a part of his payment due to cancelled sponsorship payments (which were paid as agreed)
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On August 05 2011 06:22 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:21 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:16 jmbthirteen wrote:
So I saw someone previously say this, but remember how Clide and Killer gave back their salaries to TSL under the presumption that TSL wasn't receiving their sponsorship money? If it turns out that TSL was receiving the sponsorship money, I cannot imaging Clide and Killer staying with TSL. That is just fucking horrible.
Lee screwed up big time here. I cannot see TSL surviving this. i can see TSL surviving this they should just fire or part ways with Mr. Lee and hire someone else to take care of financial matters Mr. Lee didnt help them with scheduling or practising anyways If those statements are true, how come clide and sangho like Lee so much? Doesn't really make sense that they give back their money to support the team so they can pull through rough times if they know Lee is so bad.
They believed Lee that the team was struggling and needed the money. If that turns out to be false, I don't see them liking Lee so much anymore. I think they would immediately leave TSL, I know I would.
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On August 05 2011 06:29 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:27 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. First of all I'm not generalizing all Asians or in this case Koreans. I'm looking at it in a specific setting: An Sc2 team (a niche starting business) with Coach Lee and his team. It was said that he put his own money toward the team and they were close in Brood War days. This means that this is not an extremely professional setting so I'm not putting Koreans down on their business sense. I'm just saying that by cutting wages instead of firing them, it could means that Coach Lee wanted them to stay with the team but improve on their work ethics. If he did fire them, imagine the backlash he would be getting instead of this for firing his players which is unprecendented in the case of Code S caliber players like FD and Tester. For the guys saying that Koreans are shrewd, I'm sure every culture is shrewd in the business setting, but this is not a real business setting yet. Especially for the first team to have known salary in the Sc2 world. doesnt make any sense why would mr. lee say that he cant pay the money and conclude an agreement with fd to postpone a part of his payment
Thats the ST's coach point of view and Tester's testimony which was said to be exaggerated by the TSL members. We don't know which is the truth so take it with a grain of salt.
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Ugh, TSL are paying big time for giving two underperforming overrated players those salaries with poor return.
Feel sorry for them, but you can't withhold wages, that's illegal where i come from.
Sucks 'cause i was hoping TSL could rise from the ashes so to speak but things keep getting worse >_<
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Man i am sick of hearing "korean culture.....". Culture or not what Coach Lee has done is sick. You don't hold wages. This isn't some job they need to accomplish to get paid. The players don't have to do anything if they are signed and promised pay, rather they can easily get fired. I can see how Lee was probably just trying to scare them into getting serious but that's not the way to go about.
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Wow, the updated part of OP is pretty damning and put a new light on a lot of stuff.
(and show that Lee didn't stole FD and T by the way)
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On August 05 2011 06:30 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:29 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:27 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. First of all I'm not generalizing all Asians or in this case Koreans. I'm looking at it in a specific setting: An Sc2 team (a niche starting business) with Coach Lee and his team. It was said that he put his own money toward the team and they were close in Brood War days. This means that this is not an extremely professional setting so I'm not putting Koreans down on their business sense. I'm just saying that by cutting wages instead of firing them, it could means that Coach Lee wanted them to stay with the team but improve on their work ethics. If he did fire them, imagine the backlash he would be getting instead of this for firing his players which is unprecendented in the case of Code S caliber players like FD and Tester. For the guys saying that Koreans are shrewd, I'm sure every culture is shrewd in the business setting, but this is not a real business setting yet. Especially for the first team to have known salary in the Sc2 world. doesnt make any sense why would mr. lee say that he cant pay the money and conclude an agreement with fd to postpone a part of his payment Thats the ST's coach point of view and Tester's testimony which was said to be exaggerated by the TSL members. We don't know which is the truth so take it with a grain of salt.
no the statement was made by the TSL coach not the members. he claimed that the members agreed with him.
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On August 05 2011 06:32 radiantshadow92 wrote:
Man i am sick of hearing "korean culture.....". Culture or not what Coach Lee has done is sick. You don't hold wages. This isn't some job they need to accomplish to get paid. The players don't have to do anything if they are signed and promised pay, rather they can easily get fired. I can see how Lee was probably just trying to scare them into getting serious but that's not the way to go about.
Thank you so much for this, it has nothing to do with Korean culture, it's just plain immoral. We are not some bronze age civ that has miraculously become a starcraft powerhouse. We can be sensible (sometimes) so please stop with the culture bullshit.
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On August 05 2011 06:30 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:29 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:27 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. First of all I'm not generalizing all Asians or in this case Koreans. I'm looking at it in a specific setting: An Sc2 team (a niche starting business) with Coach Lee and his team. It was said that he put his own money toward the team and they were close in Brood War days. This means that this is not an extremely professional setting so I'm not putting Koreans down on their business sense. I'm just saying that by cutting wages instead of firing them, it could means that Coach Lee wanted them to stay with the team but improve on their work ethics. If he did fire them, imagine the backlash he would be getting instead of this for firing his players which is unprecendented in the case of Code S caliber players like FD and Tester. For the guys saying that Koreans are shrewd, I'm sure every culture is shrewd in the business setting, but this is not a real business setting yet. Especially for the first team to have known salary in the Sc2 world. doesnt make any sense why would mr. lee say that he cant pay the money and conclude an agreement with fd to postpone a part of his payment Thats the ST's coach point of view and Tester's testimony which was said to be exaggerated by the TSL members. We don't know which is the truth so take it with a grain of salt.
Actually, it doesn't matter whether or not he lied about the sponsors. It really doesn't.
Look, FD and Trickster were salaried. This is not how you treat salaried workers. You can't hire someone, contract him for X amount of money, then say, "Oh, I don't like your performance, we'll actually only pay you Y amount until you meet our expectations." You warn them (which I assume Coach Lee did), and then if they don't pull themselves together, you fire them. End of story.
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On August 05 2011 06:34 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:30 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:29 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:27 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. First of all I'm not generalizing all Asians or in this case Koreans. I'm looking at it in a specific setting: An Sc2 team (a niche starting business) with Coach Lee and his team. It was said that he put his own money toward the team and they were close in Brood War days. This means that this is not an extremely professional setting so I'm not putting Koreans down on their business sense. I'm just saying that by cutting wages instead of firing them, it could means that Coach Lee wanted them to stay with the team but improve on their work ethics. If he did fire them, imagine the backlash he would be getting instead of this for firing his players which is unprecendented in the case of Code S caliber players like FD and Tester. For the guys saying that Koreans are shrewd, I'm sure every culture is shrewd in the business setting, but this is not a real business setting yet. Especially for the first team to have known salary in the Sc2 world. doesnt make any sense why would mr. lee say that he cant pay the money and conclude an agreement with fd to postpone a part of his payment Thats the ST's coach point of view and Tester's testimony which was said to be exaggerated by the TSL members. We don't know which is the truth so take it with a grain of salt. Actually, it doesn't matter whether or not he lied about the sponsors. It really doesn't. Look, FD and Trickster were salaried. This is not how you treat salaried workers. You can't hire someone, contract him for X amount of money, then say, "Oh, I don't like your performance, we'll actually only pay you Y amount until you meet our expectations." You warn them (which I assume Coach Lee did), and then if they don't pull themselves together, you fire them. End of story.
yes it does as this could mean that mr. lee has commited a crime here
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Well, was kind of wondering what had gone on when Trickster and FD left a while back. I guess that explains it. Also, the whole ordeal with Puma seems a lot less controversial now, since you could see a reason that he'd want to bail.
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On August 05 2011 06:22 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:21 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:16 jmbthirteen wrote:
So I saw someone previously say this, but remember how Clide and Killer gave back their salaries to TSL under the presumption that TSL wasn't receiving their sponsorship money? If it turns out that TSL was receiving the sponsorship money, I cannot imaging Clide and Killer staying with TSL. That is just fucking horrible.
Lee screwed up big time here. I cannot see TSL surviving this. i can see TSL surviving this they should just fire or part ways with Mr. Lee and hire someone else to take care of financial matters Mr. Lee didnt help them with scheduling or practising anyways If those statements are true, how come clide and sangho like Lee so much? Doesn't really make sense that they give back their money to support the team so they can pull through rough times if they know Lee is so bad.
Clide was a former MBC Coach. Before that, he was a former MBC B-teamer. His relationship with Coach Lee goes back years.
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On August 05 2011 06:36 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:34 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:30 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:29 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:27 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. First of all I'm not generalizing all Asians or in this case Koreans. I'm looking at it in a specific setting: An Sc2 team (a niche starting business) with Coach Lee and his team. It was said that he put his own money toward the team and they were close in Brood War days. This means that this is not an extremely professional setting so I'm not putting Koreans down on their business sense. I'm just saying that by cutting wages instead of firing them, it could means that Coach Lee wanted them to stay with the team but improve on their work ethics. If he did fire them, imagine the backlash he would be getting instead of this for firing his players which is unprecendented in the case of Code S caliber players like FD and Tester. For the guys saying that Koreans are shrewd, I'm sure every culture is shrewd in the business setting, but this is not a real business setting yet. Especially for the first team to have known salary in the Sc2 world. doesnt make any sense why would mr. lee say that he cant pay the money and conclude an agreement with fd to postpone a part of his payment Thats the ST's coach point of view and Tester's testimony which was said to be exaggerated by the TSL members. We don't know which is the truth so take it with a grain of salt. Actually, it doesn't matter whether or not he lied about the sponsors. It really doesn't. Look, FD and Trickster were salaried. This is not how you treat salaried workers. You can't hire someone, contract him for X amount of money, then say, "Oh, I don't like your performance, we'll actually only pay you Y amount until you meet our expectations." You warn them (which I assume Coach Lee did), and then if they don't pull themselves together, you fire them. End of story. yes it does as this could mean that mr. lee has commited a crime here
Yes, it will matter if it's true. But since we have no way of telling whether or not it's actually true until we get a statement, I'm choosing to assume it's false and looking at the issue from just the angle of a manager/coach choosing not to pay salaried players their salary. Hope that clears up what I'm doing.
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On August 05 2011 06:38 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:36 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:34 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:30 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:29 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:27 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. First of all I'm not generalizing all Asians or in this case Koreans. I'm looking at it in a specific setting: An Sc2 team (a niche starting business) with Coach Lee and his team. It was said that he put his own money toward the team and they were close in Brood War days. This means that this is not an extremely professional setting so I'm not putting Koreans down on their business sense. I'm just saying that by cutting wages instead of firing them, it could means that Coach Lee wanted them to stay with the team but improve on their work ethics. If he did fire them, imagine the backlash he would be getting instead of this for firing his players which is unprecendented in the case of Code S caliber players like FD and Tester. For the guys saying that Koreans are shrewd, I'm sure every culture is shrewd in the business setting, but this is not a real business setting yet. Especially for the first team to have known salary in the Sc2 world. doesnt make any sense why would mr. lee say that he cant pay the money and conclude an agreement with fd to postpone a part of his payment Thats the ST's coach point of view and Tester's testimony which was said to be exaggerated by the TSL members. We don't know which is the truth so take it with a grain of salt. Actually, it doesn't matter whether or not he lied about the sponsors. It really doesn't. Look, FD and Trickster were salaried. This is not how you treat salaried workers. You can't hire someone, contract him for X amount of money, then say, "Oh, I don't like your performance, we'll actually only pay you Y amount until you meet our expectations." You warn them (which I assume Coach Lee did), and then if they don't pull themselves together, you fire them. End of story. yes it does as this could mean that mr. lee has commited a crime here Yes, it will matter if it's true. But since we have no way of telling whether or not it's actually true until we get a statement, I'm choosing to assume it's false and looking at the issue from just the angle of a manager/coach choosing not to pay salaried players their salary. Hope that clears up what I'm doing. yes it does. but i do believe that FD and Trickster should go to the police or to the DA to discuss this issue with them. the whole thing about the sponsorship money sounds really shady to me and there should be a formal investigation about this matter.
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If TSL was one of the first SC2 teams to have major sponsors, this doesn't really provide incentives for other companies to help sponsor other SC2 teams 
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EPT
