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This really isn't what SC2 needs. Very sad situation all round.
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On August 05 2011 07:10 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. Wtf don't speak for us don't even say majority. I don't care if it's your opinion, it's a false opinion about OTHER people. Asians are less business in conduct? Firing is strict and not our conduct? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
You're misreading. I essentially said, "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." =__=
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On August 05 2011 06:56 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:53 MythArc wrote:
I think it's kind of pathetic that FD and tester went and cried to sc2con after being a burden to their team with their constant under-performance and lack of practice. Have some dignity, you were lucky enough to be picked up by another team. Don't demand payments from a team that is shattered and financially struggling. they were code s players underperformance what ? also if its true what they are saying TSL did receive money. or rather. Mr. Lee received the money but did not give it to the TSL Players.
FruitDealer was WAY under-performing. He only made it out of groups once since the open seasons...and he was probably one of their highest paid players. Trickster was kind of all over the place.
Either way, since they are SALARIED...Mr. Lee had no right to withhold wages, and it is actually illegal.
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On August 05 2011 06:54 moonmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:53 zeru wrote:
Didn't see it posted, but clide posted on his twitter half an hour ago:
잠이오지않는다.. 큰일이다..
google translate:
<some word>. This is big/huge. Cannot sleep, big problem
Oh man... I'm not sure what to think of that... is he worried that he may have been duped? Or ST stirring up a storm?
I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope this is all false. Esports tends to have these types of scandals in the west (organizers running off with entry fee money and such, not paying prizes out).
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On August 05 2011 07:11 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 07:10 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. Wtf don't speak for us don't even say majority. I don't care if it's your opinion, it's a false opinion about OTHER people. Asians are less business in conduct? Firing is strict and not our conduct? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You're misreading. I essentially said, "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." =__=
Whoops.
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On August 05 2011 07:14 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 07:11 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 07:10 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. Wtf don't speak for us don't even say majority. I don't care if it's your opinion, it's a false opinion about OTHER people. Asians are less business in conduct? Firing is strict and not our conduct? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You're misreading. I essentially said, "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." =__= I'm sorry English is my first language, but I don't seem to understand how "Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization." translates into "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." And if that second statement is what you intended from the beginning your 1st post was poorly worded and also rather pointless. The sky is blue. Yes. Wonderful. Asians use paper to write on just like everyone else. Keep those contributions coming.
I didn't say that. baoluvboa did. I was responding to baoluvboa. Read the nested quotes, please.
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On August 05 2011 07:14 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 07:11 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 07:10 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. Wtf don't speak for us don't even say majority. I don't care if it's your opinion, it's a false opinion about OTHER people. Asians are less business in conduct? Firing is strict and not our conduct? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You're misreading. I essentially said, "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." =__= I'm sorry English is actually my first language, but I don't seem to understand how "Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture" translates into "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." Both those quotes are your EXACT words. And if that second statement is what you intended from the beginning your 1st post was poorly worded and also rather pointless. The sky is blue. Yes. Wonderful. Asians use paper to write on just like everyone else. Keep those contributions coming.
Feel like you are responding the wrong person here bro.
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On August 05 2011 07:15 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 07:14 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 07:11 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 07:10 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. Wtf don't speak for us don't even say majority. I don't care if it's your opinion, it's a false opinion about OTHER people. Asians are less business in conduct? Firing is strict and not our conduct? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You're misreading. I essentially said, "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." =__= I'm sorry English is my first language, but I don't seem to understand how "Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization." translates into "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." And if that second statement is what you intended from the beginning your 1st post was poorly worded and also rather pointless. The sky is blue. Yes. Wonderful. Asians use paper to write on just like everyone else. Keep those contributions coming. I didn't say that. baoluvboa did. I was responding to baoluvboa. Read the nested quotes, please.
........ sigh similar names, my bad. Why did you respond to my comment then? It wasn't even directed at you.
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On August 05 2011 07:16 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 07:15 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 07:14 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 07:11 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 07:10 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. Wtf don't speak for us don't even say majority. I don't care if it's your opinion, it's a false opinion about OTHER people. Asians are less business in conduct? Firing is strict and not our conduct? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You're misreading. I essentially said, "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." =__= I'm sorry English is my first language, but I don't seem to understand how "Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization." translates into "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." And if that second statement is what you intended from the beginning your 1st post was poorly worded and also rather pointless. The sky is blue. Yes. Wonderful. Asians use paper to write on just like everyone else. Keep those contributions coming. I didn't say that. baoluvboa did. I was responding to baoluvboa. Read the nested quotes, please. ........ sigh similar names, my bad. Why did you respond to my comment then? It wasn't even directed at you.
Because you quoted me. 
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EG has to be happy to hear this. I still like the idea of a group coming together and beating all obstacles, and since TSL has some budget problems, i can almost understand why he tried it and if trickster and FD were that bad towards the end might deserve it.
that being said, if FD and trickster fight for the money, and get a bunch of people involved into what can turn into bad press, in light of all the other bad TSL stuff going on... seems like they should pay them. This looks terrible for TSL and i'm not sure if they can afford it.
Still, i wish luck to TSL and hope they make better future decisions.
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On August 05 2011 07:17 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 07:16 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 07:15 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 07:14 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 07:11 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 07:10 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 06:21 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong. i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast. EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant. Wtf don't speak for us don't even say majority. I don't care if it's your opinion, it's a false opinion about OTHER people. Asians are less business in conduct? Firing is strict and not our conduct? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You're misreading. I essentially said, "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." =__= I'm sorry English is my first language, but I don't seem to understand how "Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization." translates into "We fire people just like everyone else in the business world." And if that second statement is what you intended from the beginning your 1st post was poorly worded and also rather pointless. The sky is blue. Yes. Wonderful. Asians use paper to write on just like everyone else. Keep those contributions coming. I didn't say that. baoluvboa did. I was responding to baoluvboa. Read the nested quotes, please. ........ sigh similar names, my bad. Why did you respond to my comment then? It wasn't even directed at you. Because you quoted me.
I'm sorry <3.
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Withholding pay is one of the lowest forms of 'punishment' or disciplinary measure, regardless of FD or Trickster's actions. It sides with slavery to a certain extent.
If an employee is lazy or a bad influence in a company, you can impose an ultimatum with regards to the players upping their performance or attitudes towards other players or the general team atmosphere - or have their contracts cancelled. That would have been the more responsible thing to do given the fact that Lee gave himself the power to withhold salary and (apparently) lying about a certain lack of funding.
(I'm not up to 100% par with all the following details, so don't flame me if I'm wrong) This also doesn't change the fact EG 'tapped up' PuMa without involving coach Lee in the negotiations, even though now that this case is settled and permitted to be discussed publicly we can now say "Oh that's also why he wanted to leave.", but on the other hand, given PuMa's performance during the NASL open, should they have contacted coach Lee directly and asked to purchase/trade PuMa from them, he would have probably said no ..
Don't you love politics ?
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On August 05 2011 07:19 Kogan wrote:
FXO should buy TSL XD :D
They wouldn't be guaranteed that the money spent on TSL goes to the actual players.
Zing!. T.T sorry I had to.
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On August 05 2011 07:01 masterbreti wrote:
I really don't believe Lee would do this unless there is something else we do not know. Lee has been a nice guy whenever I've had contact with him.
I have a feeling it was more about using the expenses for players other than just food or snack money. I would assume Lee had to shell out almost 3k for aLive and Puma to go to NASL. Also he could have needed to buy new equiptment and such for the players or even new beds or new appliances.
I am suspicious maybe it was more about him wanting to be frugal and not wanting to give him the money cause tbh FD and tester got a lot and didn't do much.
Yeah, I have the feeling that there is more to this. Because really, despite what our Korean "experts" say, I don't think the sponsors would take it lightly if Coach Lee was pocketing their money and I'd think that the sponsors DO have some kind of contract.
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I read the OP and thought this Lee guy is totally guilty.
Then I remembered this Lee here is actually the same coach Lee from MBC Game from the "Hyungjun become a progammer" show, the "mama bear".
That's quite a contrast in images.
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On August 05 2011 07:27 dukethegold wrote:
I read the OP and thought this Lee guy is totally guilty.
Then I remembered this Lee here is actually the same coach Lee from MBC Game from the "Hyungjun become a progammer" show, the "mama bear".
That's quite a contrast in images.
yeah his that coach alright realy sad that his showing his true colors.
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If trickster and FD were contractually allowed to be "lazy" then they should just sue Lee for the money. Problem solved.
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Freaking FD. I wanted him to win so badly every time...now it comes out he didn't practice
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On August 04 2011 20:40 brachester wrote:
As far as i understand from reading this translation is coach Lee holding their money not for himself, but to makes FD and Tester conduct themselves better for the team, beacuse they were being lazy yet get the highest paid out of all the players. So then they leave, notice how all the hardworking players like Clide doesn't have any problems?
Yeah that part doesn't sound like he did anything wrong. FD and Tester were paid 30k yearly salary right? Honestly that's a lot of money (the huge salary was to encourage their practice in the first place).
The only really wrong things he did were him lying about not getting paid sponsorship money and using FD and Tester in ads after they left.
It is disappointing but there's more to the story than what's being shown.
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EPT
