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On August 05 2011 04:38 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 04:20 IMABUNNEH wrote:I think this indirectly gives credibility to EG as well, though this thread isn't about them. They make it SOUND as though (and I understand TSL have rebutted against such a thing) Coach Lee has been pretty underhanded. Perhaps in more than just this issue... if you get me  Eh? How does this give any credibility to EG? While I never got all the people upset at them signing Puma its not like EG did that for some kind of humanitarian reason by "saving" Puma. All the sensible arguments that were made against EG(mainly them being kinda disrespectful by not contacting the coach but that was not really that bad) still hold.
How does it NOT give them credibility? Coach Lee is the one screwing his own players over and perhaps lying to people. What do you think that does to reshape how the EG thing went down?
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On August 05 2011 05:32 andrea20 wrote:Show nested quote +
Translation of the Startale manager's response:
...I am still trying to understand how they don't have enough money to run their team. Manager Lee said that they give out 1,000,000 WON ($1000) to their players as snack money each month, and that money is enough to pay for their monthly utility fee and car maintenance. He also claimed their their food expenses are over 5,000,000 WON ($5000) each month, but our team only spends 2,000,000 - 2,500,000 WON for 15 player, and that's including feeding them weekly beef/chicken/fish, so I don't understand why TSL needs that much money for only 8-9 players. I would like to ask TSL's manager if he thinks spending that much on food is wise, and you would have to question if he has the right qualities as a manager. I would like to ask him if thinks withholding player salaries to run his team is the correct decision.
Wait. Startale only feeds their players meat once a week? Oog, as a meat-lover, that sounds terrible to me~
Oh come on you really have to ask this when it's obvious to anyone he meant weekly food cost for his team?
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With all this drama and conflict, I can kind of see how Puma came to a decision so quick.
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On August 05 2011 05:37 Nowis0n wrote:
I no longer feel bad for TSL...at all. Well the manager or whatever at least.
If anything, the sponsors who invested with good faith in TSL's direction, and Coach Lee's guiding hand, should be the ones who we feel bad for. With the way TSL has seemingly fallen apart losing their players and all of this "scandulous" behavior, I doubt those sponsors are very happy with TSLee, and the SC2 scene in general. That's very unfortunate as the SC2 scene is hurting financially in Korea, and there seems to be a good deal of trouble getting sponsors. Only gets harder when you look at this case here.
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On August 05 2011 05:41 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 05:37 Nowis0n wrote:
I no longer feel bad for TSL...at all. Well the manager or whatever at least. If anything, the sponsors who invested with good faith in TSL's direction, and Coach Lee's guiding hand, should be the ones who we feel bad for. With the way TSL has seemingly fallen apart losing their players and all of this "scandulous" behavior, I doubt those sponsors are very happy with TSLee, and the SC2 scene in general.
Precisely, with the way Coache Lee acted, he basically stunted the sponership possibilities of SC2 teams. Which companies would want to risk their money on a still very wild scene and hope it would pay off?
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The best thing to have come out of this thread is a lawyer grudgematch. If this really does happen, PM me, I want to obs 
That statement, if true, is the end of Coach Lee and TSL.
The part where it says FD didn't even quit TSL is just terrible.
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On August 05 2011 05:43 moonmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 05:41 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 05:37 Nowis0n wrote:
I no longer feel bad for TSL...at all. Well the manager or whatever at least. If anything, the sponsors who invested with good faith in TSL's direction, and Coach Lee's guiding hand, should be the ones who we feel bad for. With the way TSL has seemingly fallen apart losing their players and all of this "scandulous" behavior, I doubt those sponsors are very happy with TSLee, and the SC2 scene in general. Precisely, with the way Coache Lee acted, he basically stunted the sponership possibilities of SC2 teams. Which companies would want to risk their money on a still very wild scene and hope it would pay off?
Oh he most certainly did. This shows how they mismanaged their budget and team. They are basically in the shit and this makes it harder for them.
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On August 05 2011 05:33 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 05:31 MrCon wrote:
There's 2 things :
- if Lee really had period where he came to the house only twice a month, he's just a bad coach.
- all the rest is too much speculation, because it wouldn't surprise me that tester and fd had the house spirit completely ruined. Those guys won nearly 5000$ a month (code S included), so seeing them afk all day when their non paid teammates are practicing non stop can really be a disaster. I can understand how things could have snowballed from this.
Apart from that (which is speculation already), nothing in this thread is factual (this post included), so posting definite judgments one way or another isn't very smart imo. Withholding salaries, lying about sponsors, and continuing to use FD/T promotional images... that's fact. Especially the 1st and 3rd. There wouldn't be this argument without the 1st and I've seen the 3rd for myself lol.
I agree, those are facts, but what I said is that the attitude of tester and fd could have been so terrible that it could have snowballed into this.
And about the sponsors we know nothing. I guess on this one they had a contract. FD and Tester not being in TSL anymore doesn't mean that their sponsoring contract (I think they're talking about the gskill clip on GSL) becomes null. So for 2/ and 3/ we don't have the elements to properly judge.
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD)
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
There's no way coach Lee can let that post by ST's manager go. I'm very interested to hear his response.
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On August 05 2011 05:54 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 05:43 moonmeh wrote:On August 05 2011 05:41 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 05:37 Nowis0n wrote:
I no longer feel bad for TSL...at all. Well the manager or whatever at least. If anything, the sponsors who invested with good faith in TSL's direction, and Coach Lee's guiding hand, should be the ones who we feel bad for. With the way TSL has seemingly fallen apart losing their players and all of this "scandulous" behavior, I doubt those sponsors are very happy with TSLee, and the SC2 scene in general. Precisely, with the way Coache Lee acted, he basically stunted the sponership possibilities of SC2 teams. Which companies would want to risk their money on a still very wild scene and hope it would pay off? Oh he most certainly did. This shows how they mismanaged their budget and team. They are basically in the shit and this makes it harder for them.
*EG just straight up buys TSL*....*Still doesn't talk to Lee*....lol
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On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 05:33 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 05:31 MrCon wrote:
There's 2 things :
- if Lee really had period where he came to the house only twice a month, he's just a bad coach.
- all the rest is too much speculation, because it wouldn't surprise me that tester and fd had the house spirit completely ruined. Those guys won nearly 5000$ a month (code S included), so seeing them afk all day when their non paid teammates are practicing non stop can really be a disaster. I can understand how things could have snowballed from this.
Apart from that (which is speculation already), nothing in this thread is factual (this post included), so posting definite judgments one way or another isn't very smart imo. Withholding salaries, lying about sponsors, and continuing to use FD/T promotional images... that's fact. Especially the 1st and 3rd. There wouldn't be this argument without the 1st and I've seen the 3rd for myself lol. I agree, those are facts, but what I said is that the attitude of tester and fd could have been so terrible that it could have snowballed into this. And about the sponsors we know nothing. I guess on this one they had a contract. FD and Tester not being in TSL anymore doesn't mean that their sponsoring contract (I think they're talking about the gskill clip on GSL) becomes null. So for 2/ and 3/ we don't have the elements to properly judge. Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD)
LoL, dont even want to start the word legal up again here, but I'll say that if that scenario were happening, the employees should be warned and eventually fired if it continues. You dont let them stay in the office throwing the beach ball around (TSL not cutting ties with FD and Tester)
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mr. lee crossed the line of legal behavior and entered the realm of criminality imho
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On August 05 2011 05:53 youngminii wrote:
That statement, if true, is the end of Coach Lee and TSL.
The part where it says FD didn't even quit TSL is just terrible.
I also found that terrible..Poor FruitDealer 
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On August 05 2011 05:57 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:33 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 05:31 MrCon wrote:
There's 2 things :
- if Lee really had period where he came to the house only twice a month, he's just a bad coach.
- all the rest is too much speculation, because it wouldn't surprise me that tester and fd had the house spirit completely ruined. Those guys won nearly 5000$ a month (code S included), so seeing them afk all day when their non paid teammates are practicing non stop can really be a disaster. I can understand how things could have snowballed from this.
Apart from that (which is speculation already), nothing in this thread is factual (this post included), so posting definite judgments one way or another isn't very smart imo. Withholding salaries, lying about sponsors, and continuing to use FD/T promotional images... that's fact. Especially the 1st and 3rd. There wouldn't be this argument without the 1st and I've seen the 3rd for myself lol. I agree, those are facts, but what I said is that the attitude of tester and fd could have been so terrible that it could have snowballed into this. And about the sponsors we know nothing. I guess on this one they had a contract. FD and Tester not being in TSL anymore doesn't mean that their sponsoring contract (I think they're talking about the gskill clip on GSL) becomes null. So for 2/ and 3/ we don't have the elements to properly judge. Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) LoL, dont even want to start the word legal up again here, but I'll say that if that scenario were happening, the employees should be warned and eventually fired if it continues. You dont let them stay in the office throwing the beach ball around (TSL not cutting ties with FD and Tester)
But they were fired.
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On August 05 2011 06:01 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 05:57 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:33 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 05:31 MrCon wrote:
There's 2 things :
- if Lee really had period where he came to the house only twice a month, he's just a bad coach.
- all the rest is too much speculation, because it wouldn't surprise me that tester and fd had the house spirit completely ruined. Those guys won nearly 5000$ a month (code S included), so seeing them afk all day when their non paid teammates are practicing non stop can really be a disaster. I can understand how things could have snowballed from this.
Apart from that (which is speculation already), nothing in this thread is factual (this post included), so posting definite judgments one way or another isn't very smart imo. Withholding salaries, lying about sponsors, and continuing to use FD/T promotional images... that's fact. Especially the 1st and 3rd. There wouldn't be this argument without the 1st and I've seen the 3rd for myself lol. I agree, those are facts, but what I said is that the attitude of tester and fd could have been so terrible that it could have snowballed into this. And about the sponsors we know nothing. I guess on this one they had a contract. FD and Tester not being in TSL anymore doesn't mean that their sponsoring contract (I think they're talking about the gskill clip on GSL) becomes null. So for 2/ and 3/ we don't have the elements to properly judge. Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) LoL, dont even want to start the word legal up again here, but I'll say that if that scenario were happening, the employees should be warned and eventually fired if it continues. You dont let them stay in the office throwing the beach ball around (TSL not cutting ties with FD and Tester) But they were fired.
no they were not fired. and even if they were fired we are talking about the wages before the departure
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On August 05 2011 06:03 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:01 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:57 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:33 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 05:31 MrCon wrote:
There's 2 things :
- if Lee really had period where he came to the house only twice a month, he's just a bad coach.
- all the rest is too much speculation, because it wouldn't surprise me that tester and fd had the house spirit completely ruined. Those guys won nearly 5000$ a month (code S included), so seeing them afk all day when their non paid teammates are practicing non stop can really be a disaster. I can understand how things could have snowballed from this.
Apart from that (which is speculation already), nothing in this thread is factual (this post included), so posting definite judgments one way or another isn't very smart imo. Withholding salaries, lying about sponsors, and continuing to use FD/T promotional images... that's fact. Especially the 1st and 3rd. There wouldn't be this argument without the 1st and I've seen the 3rd for myself lol. I agree, those are facts, but what I said is that the attitude of tester and fd could have been so terrible that it could have snowballed into this. And about the sponsors we know nothing. I guess on this one they had a contract. FD and Tester not being in TSL anymore doesn't mean that their sponsoring contract (I think they're talking about the gskill clip on GSL) becomes null. So for 2/ and 3/ we don't have the elements to properly judge. Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) LoL, dont even want to start the word legal up again here, but I'll say that if that scenario were happening, the employees should be warned and eventually fired if it continues. You dont let them stay in the office throwing the beach ball around (TSL not cutting ties with FD and Tester) But they were fired. no they were not fired. and even if they were fired we are talking about the wages before the departure
We don't know, that what I say. Unless you have a source.
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On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD)
Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team.
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On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team.
Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization.
What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely.
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On August 05 2011 06:06 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:03 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:01 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:57 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:33 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 05:31 MrCon wrote:
There's 2 things :
- if Lee really had period where he came to the house only twice a month, he's just a bad coach.
- all the rest is too much speculation, because it wouldn't surprise me that tester and fd had the house spirit completely ruined. Those guys won nearly 5000$ a month (code S included), so seeing them afk all day when their non paid teammates are practicing non stop can really be a disaster. I can understand how things could have snowballed from this.
Apart from that (which is speculation already), nothing in this thread is factual (this post included), so posting definite judgments one way or another isn't very smart imo. Withholding salaries, lying about sponsors, and continuing to use FD/T promotional images... that's fact. Especially the 1st and 3rd. There wouldn't be this argument without the 1st and I've seen the 3rd for myself lol. I agree, those are facts, but what I said is that the attitude of tester and fd could have been so terrible that it could have snowballed into this. And about the sponsors we know nothing. I guess on this one they had a contract. FD and Tester not being in TSL anymore doesn't mean that their sponsoring contract (I think they're talking about the gskill clip on GSL) becomes null. So for 2/ and 3/ we don't have the elements to properly judge. Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) LoL, dont even want to start the word legal up again here, but I'll say that if that scenario were happening, the employees should be warned and eventually fired if it continues. You dont let them stay in the office throwing the beach ball around (TSL not cutting ties with FD and Tester) But they were fired. no they were not fired. and even if they were fired we are talking about the wages before the departure We don't know, that what I say. Unless you have a source.
Done, here's your source
"TSL needs to reform. Trickster and FD disagreed with the direction we are heading, so they chose to leave the team. We wish good luck for them in their tournaments. TSL would be paying more efforts."
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On August 05 2011 06:09 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:06 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:03 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:01 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:57 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:33 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 05:31 MrCon wrote:
There's 2 things :
- if Lee really had period where he came to the house only twice a month, he's just a bad coach.
- all the rest is too much speculation, because it wouldn't surprise me that tester and fd had the house spirit completely ruined. Those guys won nearly 5000$ a month (code S included), so seeing them afk all day when their non paid teammates are practicing non stop can really be a disaster. I can understand how things could have snowballed from this.
Apart from that (which is speculation already), nothing in this thread is factual (this post included), so posting definite judgments one way or another isn't very smart imo. Withholding salaries, lying about sponsors, and continuing to use FD/T promotional images... that's fact. Especially the 1st and 3rd. There wouldn't be this argument without the 1st and I've seen the 3rd for myself lol. I agree, those are facts, but what I said is that the attitude of tester and fd could have been so terrible that it could have snowballed into this. And about the sponsors we know nothing. I guess on this one they had a contract. FD and Tester not being in TSL anymore doesn't mean that their sponsoring contract (I think they're talking about the gskill clip on GSL) becomes null. So for 2/ and 3/ we don't have the elements to properly judge. Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) LoL, dont even want to start the word legal up again here, but I'll say that if that scenario were happening, the employees should be warned and eventually fired if it continues. You dont let them stay in the office throwing the beach ball around (TSL not cutting ties with FD and Tester) But they were fired. no they were not fired. and even if they were fired we are talking about the wages before the departure We don't know, that what I say. Unless you have a source. Done, here's your sourceShow nested quote +"TSL needs to reform. Trickster and FD disagreed with the direction we are heading, so they chose to leave the team. We wish good luck for them in their tournaments. TSL would be paying more efforts."
Yeah I know about that, but I interpreted it as a common employer/employee end of contract "we disagree blabla, we parted ways"
We don't exactly know if they were fired or they left (contractually I mean).
I try not to take side in this, what I say is we don't know enough to judge all this (but the coach sure looks shady). "Trickster and FD disagreed with the direction we are heading, so they chose to leave the team." can be a diplomatic way to say "we fired those lazy asses because they trained 1 hour in 4 monthes"
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EPT
