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1378 Posts
On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. who told you this ?
because this is dead wrong
돈안주면 동기부여가 된다. 지나가는 개가 웃겠다ㅋㅋㅋㅋ
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Okay guys, the OP has been updated with Startale's coach's comments so read through it before talking abt the how things happened. They weren't fired, they left by their own free will though the situation that pressed onto them was anything bu pleasant.
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So I saw someone previously say this, but remember how Clide and Killer gave back their salaries to TSL under the presumption that TSL wasn't receiving their sponsorship money? If it turns out that TSL was receiving the sponsorship money, I cannot imaging Clide and Killer staying with TSL. That is just fucking horrible.
Lee screwed up big time here. I cannot see TSL surviving this.
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On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely.
What the fuck? I don't know which perspective that is but that aint my view (Korean). Also I'm also kind of very scared of your reasoning there. Stop patronizing our culture please and view this as a really messed up situation no culture condones.
돈안주면 동기부여가 된다. 지나가는 개가 웃겠다ㅋㅋㅋㅋ
ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ 아놔 이놈 뭐야
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On August 05 2011 06:14 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:09 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:03 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:01 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:57 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:33 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 05:31 MrCon wrote:
There's 2 things :
- if Lee really had period where he came to the house only twice a month, he's just a bad coach.
- all the rest is too much speculation, because it wouldn't surprise me that tester and fd had the house spirit completely ruined. Those guys won nearly 5000$ a month (code S included), so seeing them afk all day when their non paid teammates are practicing non stop can really be a disaster. I can understand how things could have snowballed from this.
Apart from that (which is speculation already), nothing in this thread is factual (this post included), so posting definite judgments one way or another isn't very smart imo. Withholding salaries, lying about sponsors, and continuing to use FD/T promotional images... that's fact. Especially the 1st and 3rd. There wouldn't be this argument without the 1st and I've seen the 3rd for myself lol. I agree, those are facts, but what I said is that the attitude of tester and fd could have been so terrible that it could have snowballed into this. And about the sponsors we know nothing. I guess on this one they had a contract. FD and Tester not being in TSL anymore doesn't mean that their sponsoring contract (I think they're talking about the gskill clip on GSL) becomes null. So for 2/ and 3/ we don't have the elements to properly judge. Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) LoL, dont even want to start the word legal up again here, but I'll say that if that scenario were happening, the employees should be warned and eventually fired if it continues. You dont let them stay in the office throwing the beach ball around (TSL not cutting ties with FD and Tester) But they were fired. no they were not fired. and even if they were fired we are talking about the wages before the departure We don't know, that what I say. Unless you have a source. Done, here's your source"TSL needs to reform. Trickster and FD disagreed with the direction we are heading, so they chose to leave the team. We wish good luck for them in their tournaments. TSL would be paying more efforts." Yeah I know about that, but I interpreted it as a common employer/employee end of contract "we disagree blabla, we parted ways" We don't exactly know if they were fired or they left (contractually I mean). I try not to take side in this, what I say is we don't know enough to judge all this (but the coach sure looks shady). "Trickster and FD disagreed with the direction we are heading, so they chose to leave the team." can be a diplomatic way to say "we fired those lazy asses because they trained 1 hour in 4 monthes"
I dont really feel like arguing... but come on. It's not even taking sides, he clearly stated that they chose to leave the team... he could have said something diplomatic like... we chose to part ways with Tester and FD if that was the case.
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1378 Posts
On August 05 2011 06:17 moonmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. What the fuck? I don't know which perspective that is but that aint my view (Korean). Also I'm also kind of very scared of your reasoning there. Stop patronizing our culture please and view this as a really messed up situation no culture condones. 한국인보다 한국을 더 잘 아시나보죠머 ㅋㅋㅋ
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I would be sooooo pissed if i was Clide/Killer after giving out my salary for the team then finding out that the Coach was holding out on us
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1378 Posts
On August 05 2011 06:17 stormtemplar wrote:
Wait. Didn't fruitdealer and trickster START TSL? You can't fire people who founded the team.
yes you can
happens all the time actually
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On August 05 2011 06:17 moonmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. What the fuck? I don't know which perspective that is but that aint my view (Korean). Also I'm also kind of very scared of your reasoning there. Stop patronizing our culture please and view this as a really messed up situation no culture condones.
I calculate the probability of baoluvboa post not being sarcasm 42%.
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On August 05 2011 06:18 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:17 moonmeh wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. What the fuck? I don't know which perspective that is but that aint my view (Korean). Also I'm also kind of very scared of your reasoning there. Stop patronizing our culture please and view this as a really messed up situation no culture condones. 한국인보다 한국을 더 잘 아시나보죠머 ㅋㅋㅋ
좀 어이가 없음 선수가 무슨 노예도 아니고 ㅋㅋㅋ 이렇게 빵터진건 오랬만
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1378 Posts
On August 05 2011 06:16 jmbthirteen wrote:
So I saw someone previously say this, but remember how Clide and Killer gave back their salaries to TSL under the presumption that TSL wasn't receiving their sponsorship money? If it turns out that TSL was receiving the sponsorship money, I cannot imaging Clide and Killer staying with TSL. That is just fucking horrible.
Lee screwed up big time here. I cannot see TSL surviving this.
i can see TSL surviving this
they should just fire or part ways with Mr. Lee and hire someone else to take care of financial matters
Mr. Lee didnt help them with scheduling or practising anyways
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On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely.
Actually, I'm Asian (albeit not Korean), and I can tell you right now that you're quite wrong.
i would say that a majority of us are actually quite shrewd with money matters, and if we don't feel we're getting what we're paying you for, you'll be out the door very, very fast.
EDIT: I don't mean to generalize here, but seriously, implying that all Asians are that naive in business matters is kind of ignorant.
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So the article says . If the said reparations are not paid in full, SC2Con will expel TSL and take further measures.
yet the article title says it has already happened. Is this a case of unchecked sensationalism or an error in the article?
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1378 Posts
On August 05 2011 06:20 moonmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:18 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:17 moonmeh wrote:On August 05 2011 06:08 baoluvboa wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 babylon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:
Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) Actually, the proper, professional response would be to fire the two workers playing beach ball at the office. The issue is that Coach Lee decided to withhold their salaries as a punishment, which is unjustifiable any way you look at it. Basically, he wanted FD and Trickster on the team so he could continue using them for marketing, but he didn't want to pay them even though they're salaried. You can't have it both ways. You either keep them on the team and pay them, or you fire them and pay them what you're supposed to pay them for the time they've been on the team. Another way to look at it is that Asian culture tends to be more familiar and less business in conduct. By withholding wages, the coach is not cutting ties with his players completely but rather presenting a harsh incentive for them to work harder. Firing is strict and is not the style of the Asian culture nor Sc2 since it is only a niche organization. What I'm saying is that the coach's withholding of wages could be look at another perspective in that he only wants to make FD and Tester improve but not firing them from the team and the "family" completely. What the fuck? I don't know which perspective that is but that aint my view (Korean). Also I'm also kind of very scared of your reasoning there. Stop patronizing our culture please and view this as a really messed up situation no culture condones. 한국인보다 한국을 더 잘 아시나보죠머 ㅋㅋㅋ 좀 어이가 없음 선수가 무슨 노예도 아니고 ㅋㅋㅋ 이렇게 빵터진건 오랬만
한편으로는 동양 이미지가 그런가 싶어서 좀 안타깝기도 하네요.
User was warned for this post
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On August 05 2011 06:21 SiguR wrote:So the article says Show nested quote +. If the said reparations are not paid in full, SC2Con will expel TSL and take further measures. yet the article title says it has already happened. Is this a case of unchecked sensationalism or an error in the article?
Keep reading the article, it also says:
On the 4th of August, we received a message from Manager Lee saying they would withdraw from the SC2Con, therefore, we were left with no other choice but to announce their forced expulsion.
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On August 05 2011 06:23 dormer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:21 SiguR wrote:So the article says . If the said reparations are not paid in full, SC2Con will expel TSL and take further measures. yet the article title says it has already happened. Is this a case of unchecked sensationalism or an error in the article? Keep reading the article, it also says: Show nested quote +On the 4th of August, we received a message from Manager Lee saying they would withdraw from the SC2Con, therefore, we were left with no other choice but to announce their forced expulsion.
So it was a hilarious case of:
- Do what we say, or we'll fire you.
- I QUIT, BITCHES. WHAT NOW?
- We're still going to say we fired you.
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On August 05 2011 06:18 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:14 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:09 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 06:06 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 06:03 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:01 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:57 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 05:55 MrCon wrote:On August 05 2011 05:33 wolfe wrote:On August 05 2011 05:31 MrCon wrote:
There's 2 things :
- if Lee really had period where he came to the house only twice a month, he's just a bad coach.
- all the rest is too much speculation, because it wouldn't surprise me that tester and fd had the house spirit completely ruined. Those guys won nearly 5000$ a month (code S included), so seeing them afk all day when their non paid teammates are practicing non stop can really be a disaster. I can understand how things could have snowballed from this.
Apart from that (which is speculation already), nothing in this thread is factual (this post included), so posting definite judgments one way or another isn't very smart imo. Withholding salaries, lying about sponsors, and continuing to use FD/T promotional images... that's fact. Especially the 1st and 3rd. There wouldn't be this argument without the 1st and I've seen the 3rd for myself lol. I agree, those are facts, but what I said is that the attitude of tester and fd could have been so terrible that it could have snowballed into this. And about the sponsors we know nothing. I guess on this one they had a contract. FD and Tester not being in TSL anymore doesn't mean that their sponsoring contract (I think they're talking about the gskill clip on GSL) becomes null. So for 2/ and 3/ we don't have the elements to properly judge. Withholding salaries is bad and it was a mistake 100% of the time. BUT that was my point, FD and Tester could have been such a burden that things just degenerated into such things. Not saying it was justified, saying I can understand. It's like you hire 2 employees in a 10 employees office, and those 2 are using their day playing beach ball at the office and disturbing the work of the others. In such a case I can understand an upset manager just say "guys, no paycheck for you". I'm not even sure it would be illegal haha (but the legal question seems to have trashed this thread so do not nitpick this part please xD) LoL, dont even want to start the word legal up again here, but I'll say that if that scenario were happening, the employees should be warned and eventually fired if it continues. You dont let them stay in the office throwing the beach ball around (TSL not cutting ties with FD and Tester) But they were fired. no they were not fired. and even if they were fired we are talking about the wages before the departure We don't know, that what I say. Unless you have a source. Done, here's your source"TSL needs to reform. Trickster and FD disagreed with the direction we are heading, so they chose to leave the team. We wish good luck for them in their tournaments. TSL would be paying more efforts." Yeah I know about that, but I interpreted it as a common employer/employee end of contract "we disagree blabla, we parted ways" We don't exactly know if they were fired or they left (contractually I mean). I try not to take side in this, what I say is we don't know enough to judge all this (but the coach sure looks shady). "Trickster and FD disagreed with the direction we are heading, so they chose to leave the team." can be a diplomatic way to say "we fired those lazy asses because they trained 1 hour in 4 monthes" I dont really feel like arguing... but come on. It's not even taking sides, he clearly stated that they chose to leave the team... he could have said something diplomatic like... we chose to part ways with Tester and FD if that was the case.
Yeah that's true.
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1378 Posts
On August 05 2011 06:22 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 06:21 farnham wrote:On August 05 2011 06:16 jmbthirteen wrote:
So I saw someone previously say this, but remember how Clide and Killer gave back their salaries to TSL under the presumption that TSL wasn't receiving their sponsorship money? If it turns out that TSL was receiving the sponsorship money, I cannot imaging Clide and Killer staying with TSL. That is just fucking horrible.
Lee screwed up big time here. I cannot see TSL surviving this. i can see TSL surviving this they should just fire or part ways with Mr. Lee and hire someone else to take care of financial matters Mr. Lee didnt help them with scheduling or practising anyways If those statements are true, how come clide and sangho like Lee so much? Doesn't really make sense that they give back their money to support the team so they can pull through rough times if they know Lee is so bad.
i dont know if they like him that much. as we know tsl was founded by clide, trickster and fd
its only natural to have emotional bonds to a project you kicked off.
clide probably has no fiscal abilities and no relationships to potential sponsors.
and they need money to run tsl so maybe they are just bearing that situation despite all the problems.
but hey tsl was one of the most successful teams until recently. they had clide, fd, trickster, rain, alive and killer in code s (which is equal to or more then ogs) and a potential code s leaguer with puma. now half of the code s guys left for whatever reason. i dont believe clide or sangho are liking the situation or the person that brought them into this.
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EPT
