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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On July 30 2011 03:27 FunnelC4kes wrote:
Here's the thing: it seems that MLG isn't doing as well as anyone believes. It's professional, flashy and, for the most part, exceptionally run.
I don't doubt for a second that, should the NASL come into a questionable financial situation, we would see iNControl come down and say:
Hey guys, let's support e-sports! For that to happen, we really need you guys to support the organization by buying a subscription. It's a win-win situation. You get more SC2 to watch, with exceedingly competitive games because of a bigger, more lucrative prize-pool, and we get to stay in business.
What would you think about that? Do you think he'd feel pissed off if he got a similar, jack-ass response?
I got a good laugh out of iNcontrol's response, but that's because I know how hard it is to run a live event like this. It's a pain in the ass and you hope that one day the money will come in... So, let's support the organization who wants to entertain us and buy a damn membership.
This is probably true, he would probably do the same, or at least something similar, if NASL would have been in trouble. Actually, a lot of people bought the HD pass for the NASL partly because of his, in my opinion, injustified hype, which to many was a let down. But in all fairness, I understand that this feels a bit eery though, and I believe inc would put it in proper perspective. Id prefer it if sundance either (a) tried to just promote his stream regularly, without putting an ultimatum out like that ("Do this or there will be almost no prize money!") or (b) gives more information on the subject. I guess sponsorship only does not cut it, and I can understand it is a troublesome business..
But really, he tells us that the prize money will be raised if he gets X subscribers, while now he's talking about keeping his business alive. Give more clarity on the subject, this feels like I'm being "hustled", as that original message feels as though it would go to the prize money for the players. If you're going to be exact on the amount of subscribers, be exact on how far off you are right now, how much the prize money would grow..
Just the way I see it. Of course I want esports to succeed, and I really, absolutely love MLG, but id like to see a somewhat different, more transparant approach to contact the public, if youre going to ask for the "kindness" of the SC2 community (a very kind commuinity.. just look at the TotalBiscuit tourneys and the donations...). 
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On July 30 2011 03:35 ajdoj14 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 03:33 FunnelC4kes wrote:On July 30 2011 03:31 ajdoj14 wrote:
The sad part is Sundance was always giving him uplifting tweets whenever he would say something about the negative criticisms that he was getting while working on NASL. Then he literally just turns around and makes stupid comments like that. Wait--was Sundance collaborating with NASL, or were you referring to iNcontrol? When Incontrol would get negative comments about his NASL stuff, Sundance would always tweet him something, like use the haters as fuel or something along those lines
Ah, I see now. That's chill--always good to have word from somebody has been in the trenches.
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Sundance, you have my full support and I'm sure you have the majority of this community's support.
Keep doing what you do, because in the end, it will pay off. And eSports will be bigger than ever.
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On July 30 2011 03:33 bob198 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 02:41 SundanceMLG wrote:On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote:
Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing! Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success? You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale. Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends. Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up. Best post ever? I'm buying a pass! Go Go MLG!
It would've been if he had given an idea of exactly where we were in relation with the goal he set.
With that in mind, it's perfectly fine business and I find it extremely cool that he would come and post here on TL to defend himself, rather than sending one of his goons (Which, I assume, must be pretty ripped) to post an angry response to iNcontrols.
That being said, in all spirit of capitalism, I don't personally feel the pass is worth it. But if MLG actually achieve their goal of however many passes they would like to have I would be ecstatic.
GL MLG!
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If it doesn't happen with sc2 this year I'm 100% sure It'll happen with Lol next year. I bought a gold pass and I'm still pumped as hell for the next year of mlg and the rest of this year's mlg.
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I like how people can beg for money and then claim it's to support e-sports and it's completely acceptable, but if I walk out onto the street and beg for money, then I'm a worthless bum.
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Ya Incontrol's response was rather troll-like and pretty much almost unavoidable. I like the feedback between MLG (and GSL, etc) and the community.
For me MLG was never really about the prizes but about the production and the live atmosphere. I hope they can find a good business model to support themselves in the long run.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On July 30 2011 03:43 turamn wrote:
I like how people can beg for money and then claim it's to support e-sports and it's completely acceptable, but if I walk out onto the street and beg for money, then I'm a worthless bum.
Exactly. Promote the product, give accurate information and be transparant. Dont set ultimatums or beg.. I agree with this.
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On July 30 2011 03:40 Beyonder wrote:This is probably true, he would probably do the same, or at least something similar, if NASL would have been in trouble. Actually, a lot of people bought the HD pass for the NASL partly because of his, in my opinion, injustified hype, which to many was a let down. But in all fairness, I understand that this feels a bit eery though, and I believe inc would put it in proper perspective. Id prefer it if sundance either (a) tried to just promote his stream regularly, without putting an ultimatum out like that ("Do this or there will be almost no prize money!") or (b) gives more information on the subject. I guess sponsorship only does not cut it, and I can understand it is a troublesome business.. But really, he tells us that the prize money will be raised if he gets X subscribers, while now he's talking about keeping his business alive. Give more clarity on the subject, this feels like I'm being "hustled", as that original message feels as though it would go to the prize money for the players. If you're going to be exact on the amount of subscribers, be exact on how far off you are right now, how much the prize money would grow.. Just the way I see it. Of course I want esports to succeed, and I really, absolutely love MLG, but id like to see a somewhat different approach to contact the public.
Yup, I definitely agree with (b). Honesty can go a long way.
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On July 30 2011 03:43 turamn wrote:
I like how people can beg for money and then claim it's to support e-sports and it's completely acceptable, but if I walk out onto the street and beg for money, then I'm a worthless bum.
If you go to the streets and keep bugging people to buy your product, you won't be called a worthless bum. You can be annoying, you can be an asshole, but don't compare it to begging in exchange of nothing.
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I've bought a silver membership, even though I can't watch as much as I'd like this weekend.
It's important to support e-sports, and ten dollars is nothing.
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I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG.
MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize.
Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward.
Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors.
As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for.
TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools.
You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
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On July 30 2011 03:43 turamn wrote:
I like how people can beg for money and then claim it's to support e-sports and it's completely acceptable, but if I walk out onto the street and beg for money, then I'm a worthless bum.
Wait what?
The analogy doesnt seem balance to me lol.
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All i can say to this is Dreamhack> MLG in having their shit together ^^
Edit: i do have a gold pass tho :p
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On July 30 2011 03:47 kentarre wrote:I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG. MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize. Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward. Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors. As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for. TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools. You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
It was an expense that had to be done and in a way it saved MLG's ass. I understand where Sundance is coming from. It was business decision that had to be made or else it would be a sinking ship. I'm under the same impression as you about their business and it would really help if we knew approximately how many subscriptions they have made. I don't think it's anywhere near 100,000. In fact, I would lean more towards 35,000 - 40,000. Worst case scenario. I know.
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agreed Im buying a pass as well
Its understandable that a lot of the people in this thread that are complaining, but a lot are NOT from the US. I don't know why they would complain.
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On July 30 2011 03:47 kentarre wrote:I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG. MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize. Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward. Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors. As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for. TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools. You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
Well said!
I really think this is the time to be pushing for such goals, at least with respect to StarCraft 2. I think the vast majority of us that grew up with BroodWar are now over the age of majority, and can now afford to put money back into the hobby that we all love (and be old enough to have a credit card of their own!).
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On July 30 2011 03:44 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 03:43 turamn wrote:
I like how people can beg for money and then claim it's to support e-sports and it's completely acceptable, but if I walk out onto the street and beg for money, then I'm a worthless bum. Exactly. Promote the product, give accurate information and be transparant. Dont set ultimatums or beg.. I agree with this.
There's an important lesson here somewhere that Twitter is a shite advertising tool. He probably meant it as an incentive, but twitter, or facebook or even forums here, it's too easy to do a quick rant and hit the post button without giving the receiving audience the necessary context.
I trust he meant it as a hype, but it didn't quite come across that way.
It ended up sounding somewhere in between shady and desperate.
I won't put words in his mouth, but from his post he has big dreams for MLG, but he needs the subscriptions at a certain amount before he can take the risk (needs gauranteed viewership for sponsors, or whatever). He wants e-sports to grow, but can't do it without the necessary viewers. But, I'll let him confirm any of that. This last part are assumptions based upon what information he gave, and my own experience trying to grow a live competition from the ground up.
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On July 30 2011 03:54 ShooTouts wrote:
agreed Im buying a pass as well
Its understandable that a lot of the people in this thread that are complaining, but a lot are NOT from the US. I don't know why they would complain.
I honestly don't understand what being from the US has anything to do with it. Is it about being able to go to the stages? Viewers are viewers anywhere on the world, they watch the same advertisers and buy the same subscriptions. As a competition, MLG is also pretty much global, it's existence or prize pool definatelly affects players outside the US. Probally more than actual american players, in SC2.
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I find it funny that this was blown out of proportions by Incontrol. How is promoting the NASL and HD passes any different then MLG needing subscriptions?
I mean hell... at least MLG can deliver on the hype.
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EPT
