Sundance DiGiovanni (MLGSundance) CEO of MLG tweeted that if the prize pools of MLG will be increased significantly if they sold 100,000 memberships before the national championships.
No. No it is not. Yes, MLG needs to increase their prize pools to be considered a genuine major in the line up of SC2 tournaments. No, more memberships are not going to give them the desperately needed cash to do that. Prize pools are probably less than 1% of their budget. Miniscule.
That tweet is the kind of cynical shit that makes me NOT want to throw money MLG's way. I'd buy a second NASL pass before I'd pay for their stream upgrade.
Edit: what InControl said. I'll go further and address Sundance myself: dick move.
It says before the national championship, some months away? Since we don't know how many unique people actually watch it is hard to guess. Based on other LANs like Dreamhack, NASL, TSL there can be 50-80K concurrent viewers, can probably find unique by searching through information release about it. So my guess is that 100k people buying something seems like quite a lot and won't happen.
No. No it is not. Yes, MLG needs to increase their prize pools to be considered a genuine major in the line up of SC2 tournaments. No, more memberships are not going to give them the desperately needed cash to do that. Prize pools are probably less than 1% of their budget. Miniscule.
That tweet is the kind of cynical shit that makes me NOT want to throw money MLG's way. I'd buy a second NASL pass before I'd pay for their stream upgrade.
Edit: what InControl said. I'll go further and address Sundance myself: dick move.
No. No it is not. Yes, MLG needs to increase their prize pools to be considered a genuine major in the line up of SC2 tournaments. No, more memberships are not going to give them the desperately needed cash to do that. Prize pools are probably less than 1% of their budget. Miniscule.
That tweet is the kind of cynical shit that makes me NOT want to throw money MLG's way. I'd buy a second NASL pass before I'd pay for their stream upgrade.
Edit: what InControl said. I'll go further and address Sundance myself: dick move.
I think you are grossly underestimated how much prize pools are in their budget.
No. No it is not. Yes, MLG needs to increase their prize pools to be considered a genuine major in the line up of SC2 tournaments. No, more memberships are not going to give them the desperately needed cash to do that. Prize pools are probably less than 1% of their budget. Miniscule.
That tweet is the kind of cynical shit that makes me NOT want to throw money MLG's way. I'd buy a second NASL pass before I'd pay for their stream upgrade.
Edit: what InControl said. I'll go further and address Sundance myself: dick move.
I think you are grossly underestimated how much prize pools are in their budget.
I think people are grossly misinformed on how much profit MLG actually makes from these events.
Part of me received the message negatively: MLG KNOWS how strong the sc2 community is and what the prize pools of other leagues are like. They should have already voluntarily raised it to "standard levels" without asking for 100k purchases.
"I(f) we sell 100,000 memberships before the national championship I will raise the prize pool. A lot. Next season too."
"if we don't sell at least 100,000 memberships before the national championship I will not raise the prize pool."
On July 29 2011 14:32 Hikari wrote: Part of me received the message negatively: MLG KNOWS how strong the sc2 community is and what the prize pools of other leagues are like. They should have already voluntarily raised it to "standard levels" without asking for 100k purchases.
"I(f) we sell 100,000 memberships before the national championship I will raise the prize pool. A lot. Next season too."
"if we don't sell at least 100,000 memberships before the national championship I will not raise the prize pool."
Not only will he not raise the prize pool, he'll cut it, so that sounds more like a threat than anything else :/
22.5 million views, so probably over 100k actual viewers?
This is a dumb announcement. Like iNcontrol said, it's minuscule compared to the income he's asking for. I'd rather donate the money I'd spend to supporting my favorite player.
I think it's completely fair for him to say if they sell X memberships he'll raise that and next seasons... In fact, I find myself more likely to purchase a membership now.
MLG Columbus was an amazing event, if they put on a repeat performance of awesome at Anaheim this weekend, I'll gladly purchase.
22.5 million views, so probably over 100k actual viewers?
This is a dumb announcement. Like iNcontrol said, it's minuscule compared to the income he's asking for. I'd rather donate the money I'd spend to supporting my favorite player.
Did you even read the comments below? Those numbers are enormously inflated.
Ok, so we have a yearly budget of $50 million dollars a year, give or take $15 million. So for prize pools to be 1% of their total budget, they'd need to be giving out $500,000 in total prize pool.
Grand total prize pool for SC2 in 2011: $170,000 dollars. So if prize pools for the other games combined are greater than $330,000 dollars (and they may well be, MLG pays them way more per viewer than SC2), then MLG pays somewhere between 1-2% of their budget to prize pool.
If total prize pools for other games combined are greater than $330,000 dollars, then MLG probably is paying less than 1% of their budget as prize pool.
Suck on math, bitches.
For the record, I hope MLG does well & raises their prize pools. And I plan to enjoy watching their tournament. Hell Sundance, worry not, I'll buy a few Dr. Peppers I wouldn't have. But I'm not going to pretend SC2 pros aren't getting a raw deal for the second year in a row. Edit: nor should the community demand companies give a certain % of their budget or profit to prize pools. But I still refuse to call $5,000 for first prize a major tournament. The championship will be a major tournament. This is a sponsor fest or minor circuit event. /Edit
But if you want to support SC2 e-sports on a budget, watch the standard MLG stream and buy a computer peripheral from a sponsor of your favorite team. Sponsorships are why your favorite players show up to Anaheim.
If I remember correctly, MLG has been losing money for a long time. Only last year did they managed to profit, and after Dallas didn't sirscoots mentioned on twitter that MLG had to spend 2-3 million $ to fix the stream.
I think to significantly increase their prize pools (closer to like 25 to 50k) something like 100k memberships makes sense.
I think even if they fall short with SC2 clearly becoming the flagship game of the MLG and with sponsors galore it at least has to go up from where it is. I don't think it'd be reasonable 100k or not for it to not at least go up by 5 to 10k.
On July 29 2011 14:40 MisterFred wrote: Ok, so we have a yearly budget of $50 million dollars a year, give or take $15 million. So for prize pools to be 1% of their total budget, they'd need to be giving out $500,000 in total prize pool.
Grand total prize poor for SC2 in 2011: $170,000 dollars. So if prize pools for the other games combined are greater than $330,000 dollars (and they may well be, MLG pays them way more per viewer than SC2), then MLG pays somewhere between 1-2% of their budget to prize pool.
If total prize pools for other games combined are greater than $330,000 dollars, then MLG probably is paying less than 1% of their budget as prize pool.
Suck on math, bitches.
For the record, I hope MLG does well & raises their prize pools. And I plan to enjoy watching their tournament. But I'm not going to pretend SC2 pros aren't getting a raw deal for the second year in a row.
But if you want to support SC2 e-sports on a budget, watch the standard MLG stream and buy a computer peripheral from a sponsor of your favorite team. Sponsorships are why your favorite players show up to Anaheim.
Are you saying that MLG is a 50 million dollar yearly business?
Where can I see these numbers. Or are you assuming?
I'm not sure how serious sundance is about this whole thing. But, I bought my pass anyways. I was going to buy it eventually so might as well buy it now.
I'll probably buy a pass for the remaining MLGs after I return to the states early September. No idea what MLG makes from these events in correlation to the prize pools though. If the stream quality impresses me then I'll probably spring for a yearly pass next year.
On July 29 2011 14:40 MisterFred wrote: Ok, so we have a yearly budget of $50 million dollars a year, give or take $15 million. So for prize pools to be 1% of their total budget, they'd need to be giving out $500,000 in total prize pool.
Grand total prize poor for SC2 in 2011: $170,000 dollars. So if prize pools for the other games combined are greater than $330,000 dollars (and they may well be, MLG pays them way more per viewer than SC2), then MLG pays somewhere between 1-2% of their budget to prize pool.
If total prize pools for other games combined are greater than $330,000 dollars, then MLG probably is paying less than 1% of their budget as prize pool.
Suck on math, bitches.
For the record, I hope MLG does well & raises their prize pools. And I plan to enjoy watching their tournament. But I'm not going to pretend SC2 pros aren't getting a raw deal for the second year in a row.
But if you want to support SC2 e-sports on a budget, watch the standard MLG stream and buy a computer peripheral from a sponsor of your favorite team. Sponsorships are why your favorite players show up to Anaheim.
Are you saying that MLG is a 50 million dollar yearly business?
Where can I see these numbers. Or are you assuming?
I did a google search and finally found a rumor about their 2010 budget, then increased it by an arbitrary amount because I heard on state of the game earlier in the year they had a larger budget than last year. So they're by NO means official numbers. But ok for a poorly-constructed ballpark.
Note: budget is not profit.
Edit: What Mayor said below (if your internet/monitor can handle the quality increase).
(assumption):I think they're counting on League of Legends community to make up for the rest of the subscriptions, since they're adding it to MLG by Raleigh (next month) and They show great numbers in Dreamhack. But I'm not sure if League of Legends community can deliver since they're new to subscriptions/membership viewing and they're mostly free to play community. I guess it might just be me being pessimistic but we'll see the result after the nationals.
On July 29 2011 14:43 udgnim wrote: hope I end up being wrong, but I seriously doubt they'll reach the 100K figure
they had somewhere around 450K unique viewers for MLG Columbus
hopefully that number will grow to 500K+ for MLG Anaheim, but like others have said, most viewers will be willing to accept the free stream quality
if unique viewers were in the 1M+ range, then I could see the 100K membership figure being plausible
anyways, it's better to set lofty goals and start working towards them than being satisfied with mediocrity
As people said it benefits them either way since it will motivate people to buy a pass and when they don't get 100k they still probably got more than they would have and potentially not raise prize pool substantially.
I don't think people realize that the MLG has been based on a tour system. The Nationals is where you pull in the big bucks. That's where the prize pool comes into play
Well if we can't make it this season then we'll try again the next and hopefully one day raise the prize pool... But for now this is a pretty tall order >.>
Maybe I will just as a donation as I'll still watch the standard quality. Bandwidth is so bad in Australia (at least for me) that only the low quality can be watched.
On July 29 2011 15:33 Hikari wrote: @Tour/Main championship I understand how MLG "works". However from the viewer perspective it is just another "major sc2 tournament".
MLG doesn't just get income from subscriptions: advertisement (@convention+stream), sponsorship, etc also fund the event.
Don't the players have to pay to register or am I crazy?
On July 29 2011 15:41 Telcontar wrote: Didn't MLG get a substantial increase in their budget this year? Yet the prize pool remained the same...
to pay for Conventions, Streaming company, staff, satellite trucks etc etc..
and it was something called venture capital? can someone explain that.
Venture captial is a high risk investment(usually in companies just growings) and usually with venture capital the guy giving the money gets usually a large controlling portion of the company.
kind of sad for them to ask so much, an extra one million.. im pretty sure if you give another organization that, it would be a lot better, mlg seems to be in it more for the money than most other leagues/tournaments
Ummm, first they announce the investment of 52 million? (wasnt that the figure). Put on some events with little prize money (to fly from anywhere outside north america, it costs 50% of prize money to go to MLG).
Then ask for a huge increase in income to justify a prize increase.
Let me guess, the owner drives a ferrari? OR something of similar cost.
Why not just not make hype about the inevitable (the 100k subscribers is inevitable) and just raise the prize purse?
On July 29 2011 15:57 FXOpen wrote: Ummm, first they announce the investment of 52 million? (wasnt that the figure). Put on some events with little prize money (to fly from anywhere outside north america, it costs 50% of prize money to go to MLG).
Then ask for a huge increase in income to justify a prize increase.
Let me guess, the owner drives a ferrari? OR something of similar cost.
Why not just not make hype about the inevitable (the 100k subscribers is inevitable) and just raise the prize purse?
For the people who read the earlier parts of the thread, I just want to brag about how well-constructed my ballpark was.
On July 29 2011 15:53 Geniuszerg wrote: kind of sad for them to ask so much, an extra one million.. im pretty sure if you give another organization that, it would be a lot better, mlg seems to be in it more for the money than most other leagues/tournaments
Ya I don't like the way he worded it... it sounded very greedy, but at the same time they are giving a great deal with the memberships. For the year long membership (30 dollars) you get to watch 6 MLGs (5 dollars each) on HQ with no ads, and of course you get VoDs. And on top of that they put on a good show, though once again the wording did seem very poor.
On July 29 2011 15:57 FXOpen wrote: Ummm, first they announce the investment of 52 million? (wasnt that the figure). Put on some events with little prize money (to fly from anywhere outside north america, it costs 50% of prize money to go to MLG).
Then ask for a huge increase in income to justify a prize increase.
Let me guess, the owner drives a ferrari? OR something of similar cost.
Why not just not make hype about the inevitable (the 100k subscribers is inevitable) and just raise the prize purse?
the thing is, the prize pool should be atleast always what the players put into. If the players put in 19 grand worth of money, the prize pool should be 19 grand... just think about it. That is how much the players put in for entry fees right now. Yet the prize pool is around 14 grand meaning that mlg is already making roughly 5 grand off of the gamers buying into the tournament alone.
On July 29 2011 15:57 FXOpen wrote: Ummm, first they announce the investment of 52 million? (wasnt that the figure). Put on some events with little prize money (to fly from anywhere outside north america, it costs 50% of prize money to go to MLG).
Then ask for a huge increase in income to justify a prize increase.
Let me guess, the owner drives a ferrari? OR something of similar cost.
Why not just not make hype about the inevitable (the 100k subscribers is inevitable) and just raise the prize purse?
the thing is, the prize pool should be atleast always what the players put into. If the players put in 19 grand worth of money, the prize pool should be 19 grand... just think about it. That is how much the players put in for entry fees right now. Yet the prize pool is around 14 grand meaning that mlg is already making roughly 5 grand off of the gamers buying into the tournament alone.
While I also feel it should be higher, you do have to keep in mind that there is a end of the year tournament which is significantly higher.
On July 29 2011 15:57 FXOpen wrote: Why not just not make hype about the inevitable (the 100k subscribers is inevitable) and just raise the prize purse?
Seriously, this is so right. Myself as a viewer will be attracted by a larger prize pool as well. I'll invest in a membership when the prize pool is somewhat larger (at least 3x). Especially, when the players pay to play.
On July 29 2011 16:01 integrity wrote: in the words of Nike:
JUST DO IT
for e-sports yo
gonna do mine now and than go to bed
I am not gonna throw my money when someone is : "PAY ME MONEY, SUPPORT ESPORTS". No. I would rather "support" by watching stream or just streamers who make a living out of SC2.
On July 29 2011 15:57 FXOpen wrote: Ummm, first they announce the investment of 52 million? (wasnt that the figure). Put on some events with little prize money (to fly from anywhere outside north america, it costs 50% of prize money to go to MLG).
Then ask for a huge increase in income to justify a prize increase.
Let me guess, the owner drives a ferrari? OR something of similar cost.
Why not just not make hype about the inevitable (the 100k subscribers is inevitable) and just raise the prize purse?
On July 29 2011 16:07 moltenlead wrote: Well, I would then wonder whether something is happening with MLG that is making him consider cutting the prize pool.
I would assume that that tweet was in response to ppl pressuring him about increasing the pool. I doubt that he would lower it because they have seen a huge increase in streams and revenue based off of starcraft.
Venture capital is essentially money that companies lend to startup businesses. They get a fair return on their investment but it comes at the risk of the company they are investing in failing miserably. With MLG having a budget of 50 million a year and getting 450k unique viewers at 1 event plus all the sponsorships they get (they are big too), I could see MLG having a very nice return. I wonder if they are a public company....
MLG gives out way more prize money to the COD and halo scene, and is probably not breaking even in those areas(maybe halo). The sc2 prizepool is small by comparison, yet it is their most popular event. I'd like to see some rebalancing.
On July 29 2011 16:18 Disquiet wrote: MLG gives out way more prize money to the COD and halo scene, and is probably not breaking even in those areas(maybe halo). The sc2 prizepool is small by comparison, yet it is their most popular event. I'd like to see some rebalancing.
No they don't give out more money to Halo/Cod, SC2 actually gets more of the prize money in total.
Also is everyone forgetting that MLG is gonna expand to South America? A lot of the 50 million investment could be for that.
50 million, I hope your kidding. Thats a huge fucking number. I had never heard a figure like that before and I have been following MLG for a long long time.
On July 29 2011 15:57 FXOpen wrote: Ummm, first they announce the investment of 52 million? (wasnt that the figure). Put on some events with little prize money (to fly from anywhere outside north america, it costs 50% of prize money to go to MLG).
Then ask for a huge increase in income to justify a prize increase.
Let me guess, the owner drives a ferrari? OR something of similar cost.
Why not just not make hype about the inevitable (the 100k subscribers is inevitable) and just raise the prize purse?
the thing is, the prize pool should be atleast always what the players put into. If the players put in 19 grand worth of money, the prize pool should be 19 grand... just think about it. That is how much the players put in for entry fees right now. Yet the prize pool is around 14 grand meaning that mlg is already making roughly 5 grand off of the gamers buying into the tournament alone.
Why should that be so? What is wrong with making 5 grand off of buy ins? I trust the people who run MLG know more about it's inner workings than we do and they would be more qualified than people on TL to decide if investing another 5 grand into the prize pool will make them more money in the short or long run. Personally, I really don't see increasing the prize pool by 5 grand making, MLG more than an extra 5 grand in profits or any significant impact on the long term success of the company. Maybe I'm wrong but even if I am that still doesn't have anything to do with buy ins.
Lets not forget MLG gave out free HD streams i think i saw a comment saying that was a $500,000 loss. I do agree the prize pool should be increased but I'm fully confident MLG has all the numbers and will do their very best to reward the players. <3
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's really funny... I just came up with a business plan.
Everybody send me money, I will use some of it to create a tourney with a pricepool depending on how much money you give me...
Before you decline, think twice. Not sending me money, is hurting ESPORTS!
On July 29 2011 16:23 ZuesSc2 wrote: Lets not forget MLG gave out free HD streams i think i saw a comment saying that was a $500,000 loss. I do agree the prize pool should be increased but I'm fully confident MLG has all the numbers and will do their very best to reward the players. <3
After the major fuckups on the events before Dallas, this was not really a "gift".
No. No it is not. Yes, MLG needs to increase their prize pools to be considered a genuine major in the line up of SC2 tournaments. No, more memberships are not going to give them the desperately needed cash to do that. Prize pools are probably less than 1% of their budget. Miniscule.
That tweet is the kind of cynical shit that makes me NOT want to throw money MLG's way. I'd buy a second NASL pass before I'd pay for their stream upgrade.
Edit: what InControl said. I'll go further and address Sundance myself: dick move.
Pretty much agree 100% with this. MLG will be getting none of my money.
No. No it is not. Yes, MLG needs to increase their prize pools to be considered a genuine major in the line up of SC2 tournaments. No, more memberships are not going to give them the desperately needed cash to do that. Prize pools are probably less than 1% of their budget. Miniscule.
That tweet is the kind of cynical shit that makes me NOT want to throw money MLG's way. I'd buy a second NASL pass before I'd pay for their stream upgrade.
Edit: what InControl said. I'll go further and address Sundance myself: dick move.
I hope you actually weren't being sarcastic, iNcontrol. If you were, I completely, and utterly disagree with you.
I believe it's fine that MLG is saying the community should pitch in. No other sport has free viewing without ads. If you want to watch SC2 with no ads, you pay a little money. How in the world is that going to hurt eSports?
I want to support this statement. His remark with the number being too low meaning slashing prize pools is obviously sarcasm. The number is NOT too low, and what does it matter if there aren't 100K unique live viewers. People pay to watch the VOD's because they can't watch it live. Subscribers has nothing to do with live viewers.
Get behind MLG, get behind eSports. I don't see how either can hurt us.
Has the stream quality increased at all since last MLG? I thought Columbus was a great event, but the HD stream quality left a lot to be desired for me. Maybe it;s just that DreamHack, NASL, and other major tournaments spoiled me with their stream qualities
On July 29 2011 16:18 Disquiet wrote: MLG gives out way more prize money to the COD and halo scene, and is probably not breaking even in those areas(maybe halo). The sc2 prizepool is small by comparison, yet it is their most popular event. I'd like to see some rebalancing.
No they don't give out more money to Halo/Cod, SC2 actually gets more of the prize money in total.
Also is everyone forgetting that MLG is gonna expand to South America? A lot of the 50 million investment could be for that.
Please don't spout absolute bullshit, Halo has a 50k prizepool, cod ~30k, sc2 has 14k.
On July 29 2011 16:18 Disquiet wrote: MLG gives out way more prize money to the COD and halo scene, and is probably not breaking even in those areas(maybe halo). The sc2 prizepool is small by comparison, yet it is their most popular event. I'd like to see some rebalancing.
No they don't give out more money to Halo/Cod, SC2 actually gets more of the prize money in total.
Also is everyone forgetting that MLG is gonna expand to South America? A lot of the 50 million investment could be for that.
Please don't spout absolute bullshit, Halo has a 50k prizepool, cod ~30k, sc2 has 14k.
Halo teams are made up of 4 people, CoD is 4 too or 5? I don't really know. I'm pretty sure per person the prizes are the same.
On July 29 2011 16:18 Disquiet wrote: MLG gives out way more prize money to the COD and halo scene, and is probably not breaking even in those areas(maybe halo). The sc2 prizepool is small by comparison, yet it is their most popular event. I'd like to see some rebalancing.
No they don't give out more money to Halo/Cod, SC2 actually gets more of the prize money in total.
Also is everyone forgetting that MLG is gonna expand to South America? A lot of the 50 million investment could be for that.
Please don't spout absolute bullshit, Halo has a 50k prizepool, cod ~30k, sc2 has 14k.
Halo teams are made up of 4 people, CoD is 4 too or 5? I don't really know. I'm pretty sure per person the prizes are the same.
Maybe, but they still give out much more money to halo and cod.
Prize pool is getting raised next season anyway. There is no way it will stay at 5k with MLG's recent success.
If he can push the amount of paying members he can push the prizes for the last MLG's this season as well, makes sence from a financial and business point of view.
Kind of a controversial way to put it out though with a tweet like that, making it a target for trolls and haters: OMG you will raise prize pool if you have enough room in your budget to do so!?!?!? NO way im gonna pay now!!
The reasonable response is just to ignore it, if you want HQ stream and VODS, then pay if that was your intention either way and if you didnt plan to do so dont let this tweet change your opinion.
MLG is a business, and they have given up many a free stream in the past to make up for bad performances.. I think they deserve every penny this time around
Also - 30 bucks for not having phrases like "STICK A FORK IN THOSE BUNS!" imprinted in your brain forever, is an easy choice for me.. And yes, I would gladly pay that to having to juggle the two streams and muting them every time there is a commercial
I have paid 110 dollars for Starcraft streams this month (GSL, GSTL and MLG) and I feel proud to say that I supported these organizations
On July 29 2011 16:18 Disquiet wrote: MLG gives out way more prize money to the COD and halo scene, and is probably not breaking even in those areas(maybe halo). The sc2 prizepool is small by comparison, yet it is their most popular event. I'd like to see some rebalancing.
No they don't give out more money to Halo/Cod, SC2 actually gets more of the prize money in total.
Also is everyone forgetting that MLG is gonna expand to South America? A lot of the 50 million investment could be for that.
Please don't spout absolute bullshit, Halo has a 50k prizepool, cod ~30k, sc2 has 14k.
Halo teams are made up of 4 people, CoD is 4 too or 5? I don't really know. I'm pretty sure per person the prizes are the same.
Maybe, but they still give out much more money to halo and cod.
thats because they are in teams wtf, Halo/Cod doesn't get more prize money then SC2.
On July 29 2011 16:18 Disquiet wrote: MLG gives out way more prize money to the COD and halo scene, and is probably not breaking even in those areas(maybe halo). The sc2 prizepool is small by comparison, yet it is their most popular event. I'd like to see some rebalancing.
No they don't give out more money to Halo/Cod, SC2 actually gets more of the prize money in total.
Also is everyone forgetting that MLG is gonna expand to South America? A lot of the 50 million investment could be for that.
Please don't spout absolute bullshit, Halo has a 50k prizepool, cod ~30k, sc2 has 14k.
Halo teams are made up of 4 people, CoD is 4 too or 5? I don't really know. I'm pretty sure per person the prizes are the same.
Maybe, but they still give out much more money to halo and cod.
thats because they are in teams wtf, Halo/Cod doesn't get more prize money then SC2.
Halo/Cod players don't. Halo/Cod as a whole does. The whole is what is more important.
5k is still a lot of money if it is earned in 3 days. However if we want MLG to make sc2 bigger, than it doesn't hurt to pay for membership as long as I can always watch my superstars play. Its just like watching your favourite sports club team.
I'm guessing it's some type of incentive bonus structure from the sponsors.
100k sounds rather arbitrary, but it paying members are a guaranteed audience. It'll help MLG find potential sponsors for future events, if anything else. That opens up a lot of doors for more "mainstream" forms of advertisement (outside of cheap internet advertising) which could potentially grow the prestige of e-sports through said advertisement.
There's lots of reasons, but I'd say this is a good start. 100k is a great number to toss at for future marketing prospects.
On July 29 2011 16:18 Disquiet wrote: MLG gives out way more prize money to the COD and halo scene, and is probably not breaking even in those areas(maybe halo). The sc2 prizepool is small by comparison, yet it is their most popular event. I'd like to see some rebalancing.
No they don't give out more money to Halo/Cod, SC2 actually gets more of the prize money in total.
Also is everyone forgetting that MLG is gonna expand to South America? A lot of the 50 million investment could be for that.
Please don't spout absolute bullshit, Halo has a 50k prizepool, cod ~30k, sc2 has 14k.
Halo teams are made up of 4 people, CoD is 4 too or 5? I don't really know. I'm pretty sure per person the prizes are the same.
Maybe, but they still give out much more money to halo and cod.
thats because they are in teams wtf, Halo/Cod doesn't get more prize money then SC2.
Halo/Cod players don't. Halo/Cod as a whole does. The whole is what is more important.
they have to split the money which is equal to SC2.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's really funny... I just came up with a business plan.
Everybody send me money, I will use some of it to create a tourney with a pricepool depending on how much money you give me...
Before you decline, think twice. Not sending me money, is hurting ESPORTS!
This is what TB is doing (granted he's not just asking for most of the money). I love him for that.
In short: NO.
In long: Not at all
TB is using the money he gets from his streaming (and probably donations, if he gets some) to fund his tournament. MLG is asking to send them money/buy their product so they can increase the price pool and make more money themselves.
TB is essentially "giving back" something (even if he makes profit with it, which I doubt). MLG is begging to send them money so they can use it in a future event to raise the pricepool (and earn more money in general).
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's really funny... I just came up with a business plan.
Everybody send me money, I will use some of it to create a tourney with a pricepool depending on how much money you give me...
Before you decline, think twice. Not sending me money, is hurting ESPORTS!
This is what TB is doing (granted he's not just asking for most of the money). I love him for that.
In short: NO.
In long: Not at all
TB is using the money he gets from his streaming (and probably donations, if he gets some) to fund his tournament. MLG is asking to send them money/buy their product so they can increase the price pool and make more money themselves.
TB is essentially "giving back" something (even if he makes profit with it, which I doubt). MLG is begging to send them money so they can use it in a future event to raise the pricepool (and earn more money in general).
How is this the same?
MLG is giving an option to increase the prize pool earlier there what they're planning.
Just to make a comment about prize pools being similar.. It shouldn't matter if they are a team sport or not. What matters is which bring more success. If Sc2 is getting the same draws as Halo then the prize pool needs to be the same. Does not matter if one person gets that $20K. That's just the nature of the eSport as it is played.
Prize winnings for doubles in tennis aren't twice as large as singles. That's simply cause singles are the main event.
Well I don't think I will be buying a pass from MLG ever. They have fucked up constantly then they ask for more money so they can increase their revenue and put a little bit towards prize pool? Plus the way sundance did it is probably one of the biggest douche moves I have ever seen.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's really funny... I just came up with a business plan.
Everybody send me money, I will use some of it to create a tourney with a pricepool depending on how much money you give me...
Before you decline, think twice. Not sending me money, is hurting ESPORTS!
This is what TB is doing (granted he's not just asking for most of the money). I love him for that.
In short: NO.
In long: Not at all
TB is using the money he gets from his streaming (and probably donations, if he gets some) to fund his tournament. MLG is asking to send them money/buy their product so they can increase the price pool and make more money themselves.
TB is essentially "giving back" something (even if he makes profit with it, which I doubt). MLG is begging to send them money so they can use it in a future event to raise the pricepool (and earn more money in general).
How is this the same?
They're not asking for donations, they're selling a product. MLG has spent a lot of money to fix their stream and make the event amazing, I'm pretty sure they lost a lot of money this year. They probably need something to show to the people who invested in the company: here are the stream views, and here are the suscribers, your money has been wasted. It would suck for MLG to run into big financial troubles, so I understand why they need to prove their business model before the end of the year.
However I think it's some bad PR, it gives the impression that MLG is greedy, sundance could have worded it better.
If you can't increase the prize pool budget, just take the money from the CoD and Halo circuits, ridiculous that they're getting anything close to the same amount of prize money per person when SC2 is the event that brings in the publicity, attention, people and as a result - the money.
On July 29 2011 16:47 ELA wrote: Also - 30 bucks for not having phrases like "STICK A FORK IN THOSE BUNS!" imprinted in your brain forever, is an easy choice for me.. And yes, I would gladly pay that to having to juggle the two streams and muting them every time there is a commercial
I don't know, thinking about it afterwards, it really was a certain experience watching those commercials over and over again
But yeah, they really have to raise the cash for MLG. These tourneys(before end of the year) have such a low price pool, that the cost of going there must cost a fortune compared to it.
Heck I'd guess the main reason progamers bother is not because of sponsors but rather because of the insanely fun atmosphere around MLG.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's really funny... I just came up with a business plan.
Everybody send me money, I will use some of it to create a tourney with a pricepool depending on how much money you give me...
Before you decline, think twice. Not sending me money, is hurting ESPORTS!
This is what TB is doing (granted he's not just asking for most of the money). I love him for that.
In short: NO.
In long: Not at all
TB is using the money he gets from his streaming (and probably donations, if he gets some) to fund his tournament. MLG is asking to send them money/buy their product so they can increase the price pool and make more money themselves.
TB is essentially "giving back" something (even if he makes profit with it, which I doubt). MLG is begging to send them money so they can use it in a future event to raise the pricepool (and earn more money in general).
How is this the same?
Your post is meant to say In even longer: I guess.
I believe during Shoutcraft he was describing how he got donations. I didn't say he was doing anything similiar to MLG at all. Just what I quoted. If you had read my post I said he's not asking for most of the money, which is the money he receives from streaming.
I never said he made any profit. I was just implying what you stated that he takes what the community gives and gives it straight to the players.
MLG is clearly increasing in popularity with the arrival of SC2. However 100,000 memberships seems way too high to be asking for. Considering the prize pool seems low compared to other tournaments, and should be raised anyhow.
The gold membership is a great deal. $30 for a year of hd, commercial free streams and some other perks. People will spend $10 on one event just for hd streaming.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's really funny... I just came up with a business plan.
Everybody send me money, I will use some of it to create a tourney with a pricepool depending on how much money you give me...
Before you decline, think twice. Not sending me money, is hurting ESPORTS!
This is what TB is doing (granted he's not just asking for most of the money). I love him for that.
In short: NO.
In long: Not at all
TB is using the money he gets from his streaming (and probably donations, if he gets some) to fund his tournament. MLG is asking to send them money/buy their product so they can increase the price pool and make more money themselves.
TB is essentially "giving back" something (even if he makes profit with it, which I doubt). MLG is begging to send them money so they can use it in a future event to raise the pricepool (and earn more money in general).
How is this the same?
Your post is meant to say In even longer: I guess.
I believe during Shoutcraft he was describing how he got donations. I didn't say he was doing anything similiar to MLG at all. Just what I quoted. If you had read my post I said he's not asking for most of the money, which is the money he receives from streaming.
I never said he made any profit. I was just implying what you stated that he takes what the community gives and gives it straight to the players.
I think you are forgetting the value that you get for the 30$ - Isn't that somewhat important as well?? I mean, people here are talking like they're just giving away 30 bucks.. You actually get a product for that money as well, don't forget
*EDIT*
Here's what you get for the 30 bucks:
Access to HQ Pro Circuit Streams Ad Free Streams VoD HQ Rebroadcasts Premium Ladders and Tournaments Premium Support Official MLG Rank Members Only Forums Community Recognition Additional Customization Options Avatar treatment Discounts on MLG Products Discounts on Partner Products Discounts on Pro Circuit Passes 50% off Pass Transfer Frees Early Access to Pro Circuit Passes Early Access to the Venue for Pro Circuit Events
On July 29 2011 17:27 Bobster wrote: If you can't increase the prize pool budget, just take the money from the CoD and Halo circuits, ridiculous that they're getting anything close to the same amount of prize money per person when SC2 is the event that brings in the publicity, attention, people and as a result - the money.
I guess that it's because when they decided on the prize pools the starcraft event was in a small dark corner of the venue while Halo/CoD were on the main stages. This has changed, and i assume that when they revise the prizes they will that it into account.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's really funny... I just came up with a business plan.
Everybody send me money, I will use some of it to create a tourney with a pricepool depending on how much money you give me...
Before you decline, think twice. Not sending me money, is hurting ESPORTS!
This is what TB is doing (granted he's not just asking for most of the money). I love him for that.
In short: NO.
In long: Not at all
TB is using the money he gets from his streaming (and probably donations, if he gets some) to fund his tournament. MLG is asking to send them money/buy their product so they can increase the price pool and make more money themselves.
TB is essentially "giving back" something (even if he makes profit with it, which I doubt). MLG is begging to send them money so they can use it in a future event to raise the pricepool (and earn more money in general).
How is this the same?
Your post is meant to say In even longer: I guess.
I believe during Shoutcraft he was describing how he got donations. I didn't say he was doing anything similiar to MLG at all. Just what I quoted. If you had read my post I said he's not asking for most of the money, which is the money he receives from streaming.
I never said he made any profit. I was just implying what you stated that he takes what the community gives and gives it straight to the players.
I think you are forgetting the value that you get for the 30$ - Isn't that somewhat important as well?? I mean, people here are talking like they're just giving away 30 bucks.. You actually get a product for that money as well, don't forget
*EDIT*
Here's what you get for the 30 bucks:
Access to HQ Pro Circuit Streams Ad Free Streams VoD HQ Rebroadcasts Premium Ladders and Tournaments Premium Support Official MLG Rank Members Only Forums Community Recognition Additional Customization Options Avatar treatment Discounts on MLG Products Discounts on Partner Products Discounts on Pro Circuit Passes 50% off Pass Transfer Frees Early Access to Pro Circuit Passes Early Access to the Venue for Pro Circuit Events
This.
Its not like Sundance is just saying, hey give me $30 so I can raise the prize pool. MLG is giving you a product in return for that $30.
On July 29 2011 17:27 Bobster wrote: If you can't increase the prize pool budget, just take the money from the CoD and Halo circuits, ridiculous that they're getting anything close to the same amount of prize money per person when SC2 is the event that brings in the publicity, attention, people and as a result - the money.
All the prizemoney from CoD is coming from SONY, and Halo always gets sold out.
On July 29 2011 17:27 Bobster wrote: If you can't increase the prize pool budget, just take the money from the CoD and Halo circuits, ridiculous that they're getting anything close to the same amount of prize money per person when SC2 is the event that brings in the publicity, attention, people and as a result - the money.
All the prizemoney from CoD is coming from SONY, and Halo always gets sold out.
Also it's kind of ridiculous to say that SC2 brings in all the publicity, attention, etc., when MLG was doing fine as a company before SC2 came on the scene. I know that a large portion of this community are made up of PC elitists but I'm not a fan of taking money away from a certain scene to give to another just because of your game preferences.
On July 29 2011 17:27 Bobster wrote: If you can't increase the prize pool budget, just take the money from the CoD and Halo circuits, ridiculous that they're getting anything close to the same amount of prize money per person when SC2 is the event that brings in the publicity, attention, people and as a result - the money.
All the prizemoney from CoD is coming from SONY, and Halo always gets sold out.
Also it's kind of ridiculous to say that SC2 brings in all the publicity, attention, etc., when MLG was doing fine as a company before SC2 came on the scene.
They were? I seem to remember Sundance talking on State of the Game about the awful (financially) position they were in in the past.
MLG has gotten bigger regardless of what Sundance wants it to get to, and it's completely thanks to Starcraft, they're putting a good amount of money into making MLG better production wise.
but they can't just have this huge tournament with amazing production value and not support the pros that make the whole damn thing possible.
WTF do we need, a union for our pro players?
If he's saying if it gets that big it's going to be huge prize pool awesome... if he's saying if it doesn't get that high than the prize pool won't raise at all then that's fucked
It hurts to see how many of you believe that Sundance will lower the prize pool. IT IS CALLED SARCASM. He knows that they will get 100k HQ subscriptions. He knows what number they are at, and I even guess they are closer to that number than you think. Otherwise he would have never have tweeted it to begin with.
On July 29 2011 17:27 Bobster wrote: If you can't increase the prize pool budget, just take the money from the CoD and Halo circuits, ridiculous that they're getting anything close to the same amount of prize money per person when SC2 is the event that brings in the publicity, attention, people and as a result - the money.
All the prizemoney from CoD is coming from SONY, and Halo always gets sold out.
Also it's kind of ridiculous to say that SC2 brings in all the publicity, attention, etc., when MLG was doing fine as a company before SC2 came on the scene.
They were? I seem to remember Sundance talking on State of the Game about the awful (financially) position they were in in the past.
I seem to remember isn't really helping your cause. Before you speak in that tone of "I'm absolutely correct" can we get a source on your fact?
I've never heard of MLG before I got into SC2, so they are no doubt getting publicity from SC2 players, dunno about the majority of it though, cod and halo are still big.
On July 29 2011 18:10 PRIMExTIME wrote: It hurts to see how many of you believe that Sundance will lower the prize pool. IT IS CALLED SARCASM. He knows that they will get 100k HQ subscriptions. He knows what number they are at, and I even guess they are closer to that number than you think. Otherwise he would have never have tweeted it to begin with.
Thank you. I made this point 3 pages ago, but noone seems to have noticed.
I got 4 pages into this before realizing how people don't understand how MLG gets money works... lol They have 50mil in the bank, they don't get 50 mil a year........ lol silly silly people. MLG has to use that 50mil they have now to try to make MLG a sustainable business over the course of it's entire lifetime, hopefully they get more money and hopefully one day they wont need investors to put on these shows, the shows will sustain themselves.
My favourite part is that it doesn't matter what the prize pool is. They could be playing for free and we would all still watch and the pro's would still go.
Why will we watch? Because it's a great event. All of the worlds top players are there. It is THE competition to win.
Why will the pros go? Because it is great publicity for their sponsors and it has, as I mentioned above, the greatest competition in terms of who is there.
I looked at the Championship Bracket this year and in half of the groups there is no one player who is above the rest. In the groups that you do have a player who is clearly better, the second spot is a toss up between everyone in the group.
Then you look at the Open Bracket and I cry when I think about how many great players aren't able to get through just because of how few open spots there are.
I couldn't care less what Sundance did. He could drive through the streets of LA in a lamborghini throwing money out of the window as he laughed at the people who spent 30$ so they didn't have to see ads and could make out the supply count. I would still watch it. I would still pay my 30$ and I'm pretty sure 90% of the other people who pay for the HD stream would do the same.
On July 29 2011 18:29 JoFritzMD wrote: My favourite part is that it doesn't matter what the prize pool is. They could be playing for free and we would all still watch and the pro's would still go.
Why will we watch? Because it's a great event. All of the worlds top players are there. It is THE competition to win.
Why will the pros go? Because it is great publicity for their sponsors and it has, as I mentioned above, the greatest competition in terms of who is there.
I looked at the Championship Bracket this year and in half of the groups there is no one player who is above the rest. In the groups that you do have a player who is clearly better, the second spot is a toss up between everyone in the group.
Then you look at the Open Bracket and I cry when I think about how many great players aren't able to get through just because of how few open spots there are.
I couldn't care less what Sundance did. He could drive through the streets of LA in a lamborghini throwing money out of the window as he laughed at the people who spent 30$ so they didn't have to see ads and could make out the supply count. I would still watch it. I would still pay my 30$ and I'm pretty sure 90% of the other people who pay for the HD stream would do the same.
Do you honestly think that pro's that don't live a couple hours away (ea koreans/europeans) would even consider the participate if it was free?
On July 29 2011 18:29 JoFritzMD wrote: My favourite part is that it doesn't matter what the prize pool is. They could be playing for free and we would all still watch and the pro's would still go.
Why will we watch? Because it's a great event. All of the worlds top players are there. It is THE competition to win.
Why will the pros go? Because it is great publicity for their sponsors and it has, as I mentioned above, the greatest competition in terms of who is there.
I looked at the Championship Bracket this year and in half of the groups there is no one player who is above the rest. In the groups that you do have a player who is clearly better, the second spot is a toss up between everyone in the group.
Then you look at the Open Bracket and I cry when I think about how many great players aren't able to get through just because of how few open spots there are.
I couldn't care less what Sundance did. He could drive through the streets of LA in a lamborghini throwing money out of the window as he laughed at the people who spent 30$ so they didn't have to see ads and could make out the supply count. I would still watch it. I would still pay my 30$ and I'm pretty sure 90% of the other people who pay for the HD stream would do the same.
Do you honestly think that pro's that don't live a couple hours away (ea koreans/europeans) would even consider the participate if it was free?
If they had sponsors that would pay the trip, I think they'd do. But if not, then not.
Well, it seems as if Sundance really wants to sell these memberships. Kind of weird that the biggest hurdle for me to buy one of the said memberships is because nobody answers my question in the promoted thread. :-/ I'm really eager to get a membership, if it is economically viable for somebody who plans on buying passes to most of the MLG events. Hopefully, the benefits don't mainly concentrate on people who plan to attend the events live, I live too far away for that... maybe after MLG expands to europe...?
On July 29 2011 18:29 JoFritzMD wrote: My favourite part is that it doesn't matter what the prize pool is. They could be playing for free and we would all still watch and the pro's would still go.
Why will we watch? Because it's a great event. All of the worlds top players are there. It is THE competition to win.
Why will the pros go? Because it is great publicity for their sponsors and it has, as I mentioned above, the greatest competition in terms of who is there.
I looked at the Championship Bracket this year and in half of the groups there is no one player who is above the rest. In the groups that you do have a player who is clearly better, the second spot is a toss up between everyone in the group.
Then you look at the Open Bracket and I cry when I think about how many great players aren't able to get through just because of how few open spots there are.
I couldn't care less what Sundance did. He could drive through the streets of LA in a lamborghini throwing money out of the window as he laughed at the people who spent 30$ so they didn't have to see ads and could make out the supply count. I would still watch it. I would still pay my 30$ and I'm pretty sure 90% of the other people who pay for the HD stream would do the same.
Do you honestly think that pro's that don't live a couple hours away (ea koreans/europeans) would even consider the participate if it was free?
Do you honestly think that every single pro there thinks they are going to come in the top 3 at the tournament? (
Chances of them winning are what? 5 to 1? 20 to 1? The majority aren't there for the prize money. Hell, the majority of players are already playing for free.
I've followed MLG for a long time, and I must say that this is probably being blown out of proportion.
MLG has done what it takes to make sure that it can be a stable financial enterprise since its inception. If anything, they gave out way too much prize money in their beginning stages. Now they are finally reaching a point where they are starting to really profit from these events (seriously, Columbus was the first event in years with a profit).
People (myself included once upon a time) have complained and posted at volume about how MLG should increase prize money. However, the MLG a lot of the SC2 community is seeing this year is LEAPS AND BOUNDS greater than any other season in MLG's history. So, in seeing where MLG is at right now, it can make it difficult to appreciate where MLG is coming from. They are a company that listens to its fans and wants to compensate the players that give themselves to play in their tournament. Just give SD and the guys some time because the MLG scene has grown expansively in a rather short amount of time.
Oh, and about the tweet, that is just classic Sunny D. For anyone that tries to say he is a penny pincher that is only out for the money has obviously never met the man, nor any of the guys at MLG for that matter. He genuinely wants to see eSports become huge, but he also wants to be smart about his company's involvement on every level, including player winnings.
I'm not surprised that the prize pool staid the same,Sundance probably put his house on the market to be able to finance all of these: http://www.youtube.com/user/itmeJP#p/u/0/26p1bCwhx6w Charis,chairs everywhere.
I'm not going to buy a stream just so the prize pool increases. The free stream's good enough and the players attracted are good enough, i just wish i could help the players. I don't work so it's kinda hard to donate/pay etc.
I'm already a gold member, got a deal as a old HQ pass customer.
15 bucks for a HQ, no ads stream the whole season? Yes, please. There are a lot of perks, but I don't care about anything else.
The dollar is low, so it is just win win.
And about the millions, camaros etc. 52 millions in total funds, 10 million extra Q1 from Legion and Oak investement Partners (Legion is run by MLGs co-founder/Chairman). MLG also owns Agora games, so I bet that the 52 million is not only going into running the events. Just look at the exec team, people like that doesn't work for free
They will raise the prizepool, I am certain of it. Even if they sell 0 memberships. I got the gold membership already for a month. It is ridiculous cheap. Everybody should buy it.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's really funny... I just came up with a business plan.
Everybody send me money, I will use some of it to create a tourney with a pricepool depending on how much money you give me...
Before you decline, think twice. Not sending me money, is hurting ESPORTS!
This is what TB is doing (granted he's not just asking for most of the money). I love him for that.
In short: NO.
In long: Not at all
TB is using the money he gets from his streaming (and probably donations, if he gets some) to fund his tournament. MLG is asking to send them money/buy their product so they can increase the price pool and make more money themselves.
TB is essentially "giving back" something (even if he makes profit with it, which I doubt). MLG is begging to send them money so they can use it in a future event to raise the pricepool (and earn more money in general).
How is this the same?
How does MLG make more money by effectively donating their MLG membership fees to prize pots?
On July 29 2011 19:50 Koshi wrote: They will raise the prizepool, I am certain of it. Even if they sell 0 memberships. I got the gold membership already for a month. It is ridiculous cheap. Everybody should buy it.
Yep, they need to if they want to push their SC2 Tourneys. But at the end they need to make a profit.
im little wary of his attitude saying that if we don't buy it, they'll decrease it? it just seems as though he's indirectly threatening us to buy the membership... Last time I heard, sc2 and its community brought mlg out of deficit....
On July 29 2011 19:48 Jiddra wrote: I'm already a gold member, got a deal as a old HQ pass customer.
15 bucks for a HQ, no ads stream the whole season? Yes, please. There are a lot of perks, but I don't care about anything else.
The dollar is low, so it is just win win.
And about the millions, camaros etc. 52 millions in total funds, 10 million extra Q1 from Legion and Oak investement Partners (Legion is run by MLGs co-founder/Chairman). MLG also owns Agora games, so I bet that the 52 million is not only going into running the events. Just look at the exec team, people like that doesn't work for free
I hope they reach 100 000 members, silver and gold. The prize money should go up anyway.
yeah, that was my point. I understand where he's coming from since a good portion goes into the production, and by all means i would love MLG to achieve this goal.
But regardless of whether on not they meet this number, the pros deserve a bigger prize pool, they are a huge part to it's success (even the core of why it works) and since MLG has grown greatly because of them give back regardless
On July 29 2011 19:56 hjkim1304 wrote: im little wary of his attitude saying that if we don't buy it, they'll decrease it? it just seems as though he's indirectly threatening us to buy the membership... Last time I heard, sc2 and its community brought mlg out of deficit....
It is a joke... They will raise the prize pool even if they sell 25 000 tickets. The finals this year will have a 50.000$ first place. Impressive already. Total of 120 000 dollar prize pool.
On July 29 2011 18:29 JoFritzMD wrote: My favourite part is that it doesn't matter what the prize pool is. They could be playing for free and we would all still watch and the pro's would still go.
Why will we watch? Because it's a great event. All of the worlds top players are there. It is THE competition to win.
Why will the pros go? Because it is great publicity for their sponsors and it has, as I mentioned above, the greatest competition in terms of who is there.
I looked at the Championship Bracket this year and in half of the groups there is no one player who is above the rest. In the groups that you do have a player who is clearly better, the second spot is a toss up between everyone in the group.
Then you look at the Open Bracket and I cry when I think about how many great players aren't able to get through just because of how few open spots there are.
I couldn't care less what Sundance did. He could drive through the streets of LA in a lamborghini throwing money out of the window as he laughed at the people who spent 30$ so they didn't have to see ads and could make out the supply count. I would still watch it. I would still pay my 30$ and I'm pretty sure 90% of the other people who pay for the HD stream would do the same.
You have absolutely no clue how these things work. The prizepool is EVERYTHING. The reason Dreamhack is big? The prizepool. The reason GSL is big? The prizepool.
The prizepool says all about an event's class. The bigger sponsors -> the bigger prizepool -> the bigger the event. Players (Like MMA, DRG, IdrA, HuK, Naniwa) wouldn't show up to MLG like this if the prizes were 1 dollar for 1st place, 0 for second. Even if the event was as big as now.
Yes, it's a chance for sponsors to show up, but we as spectators get even more into the tournaments, when the prizes are big. And so do the players.
Even with their salaries, it's still a nice catch that you make 5K extra pocketmoney for winning. Or even a % as that amount if some such is contracted.
Talking about eSports exisiting without prizemoney, is like saying you could have huge pokertournaments without prizemoney.
Well it seems like completely reasonable thing to say to me. They already pay shitton of money over a year on prizes so if people want more, they may aswell contribute.
On July 29 2011 18:29 JoFritzMD wrote: My favourite part is that it doesn't matter what the prize pool is. They could be playing for free and we would all still watch and the pro's would still go.
Why will we watch? Because it's a great event. All of the worlds top players are there. It is THE competition to win.
Why will the pros go? Because it is great publicity for their sponsors and it has, as I mentioned above, the greatest competition in terms of who is there.
I looked at the Championship Bracket this year and in half of the groups there is no one player who is above the rest. In the groups that you do have a player who is clearly better, the second spot is a toss up between everyone in the group.
Then you look at the Open Bracket and I cry when I think about how many great players aren't able to get through just because of how few open spots there are.
I couldn't care less what Sundance did. He could drive through the streets of LA in a lamborghini throwing money out of the window as he laughed at the people who spent 30$ so they didn't have to see ads and could make out the supply count. I would still watch it. I would still pay my 30$ and I'm pretty sure 90% of the other people who pay for the HD stream would do the same.
You have absolutely no clue how these things work. The prizepool is EVERYTHING. The reason Dreamhack is big? The prizepool. The reason GSL is big? The prizepool.
The prizepool says all about an event's class. The bigger sponsors -> the bigger prizepool -> the bigger the event. Players (Like MMA, DRG, IdrA, HuK, Naniwa) wouldn't show up to MLG like this if the prizes were 1 dollar for 1st place, 0 for second. Even if the event was as big as now.
Yes, it's a chance for sponsors to show up, but we as spectators get even more into the tournaments, when the prizes are big. And so do the players.
Even with their salaries, it's still a nice catch that you make 5K extra pocketmoney for winning. Or even a % as that amount if some such is contracted.
Talking about eSports exisiting without prizemoney, is like saying you could have huge pokertournaments without prizemoney.
-.- You are completely and utterly wrong.
The reason MLG is so big, is because of the huge amounts of media/coverage. It's at these events, that sponsors are getting their money back, and then some.
Pricepool everything? NO! Get your facts straight!
On July 29 2011 20:03 ZaaaaaM wrote: I was considering buying it. After this.. No way
Seriously? I really want to know what thoughts went through your head making that decision.
"Whaaaaaat ? They give more money to the players when they get more money? They should sell their houses to give the players all the money!!!11" ... I hope it's nothing like this, but this comes to my mind when I read your post.
I really don't understand how people can think negative about this. It's perfect business sense that we experience here.
On July 29 2011 20:03 ZaaaaaM wrote: I was considering buying it. After this.. No way
Seriously? I really want to know what thoughts went through your head making that decision.
"Whaaaaaat ? They give more money to the players when they get more money? They should sell their houses to give the players all the money!!!11" ... I hope it's nothing like this, but this comes to my mind when I read your post.
I really don't understand how people can think negative about this. It's perfect business sense that we experience here.
He's just trolling.. He wasn't gonna buy it anyway - Don't bite, it's not worh the discussion
Some people are in the mindset that they should have the best players fly in across the world every event and watch the stream for free in HD with no ads ..just because...!?
These types of people are hurting esports by not supporting them, and have to move out of mamas basement and live in the real world for a change. Everything cost money, and if you wanna keep seeing more sc2 events of this high quality, you gotta support it man, just common sense really.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
What a hypocrite, he cried so much about people flaming NASL and then comes right back does it to another organization.
what? he has a valid point. memberships will give them a shit ton of money, seems obvious they would raise prize pool.
No he has a point. Incontrol was real quick to knock the TL staff for criticizing the NASL. Saying something along the lines that organizers of another tournament shouldn't publicly criticize other tournaments.
I don't think the TL staff said anything that harsh about NASL, trial 1. The truth hurts, but I mean this was NASL's first tourney, so you cant expect TSL 3 or DreamHack experience / performance either.
On July 29 2011 21:05 Garfunko wrote: I don't think the TL staff said anything that harsh about NASL, trial 1. The truth hurts, but I mean this was NASL's first tourney, so you cant expect TSL 3 or DreamHack experience / performance either.
The criticism was based on Liquid'Ret going out overall no#1 from groupplay being seeded against the #1 out of the korean-stacked openbracket in first round (Open bracket champ was ofc. Puma who eliminated Ret and won the event)
This is totally unrelated though, lets stay on topic
On July 29 2011 20:59 Garfunko wrote: Some people are in the mindset that they should have the best players fly in across the world every event and watch the stream for free in HD with no ads ..just because...!?
These types of people are hurting esports by not supporting them, and have to move out of mamas basement and live in the real world for a change. Everything cost money, and if you wanna keep seeing more sc2 events of this high quality, you gotta support it man, just common sense really.
No one said anything like that.
The "problem" with the statement for me is I read it like: "Pay us 30$ or we will keep our kinda low pricepool"
I mean? WTF?
I most probably won't buy it anyway (and never said I would), but that’s because I can't watch the whole thing anyway. I don't care about adds and the quality on the free stream was "ok" (last time I saw it, which is some time ago )... If I buy it, I will do it spontaneous while the event is running... In advance whiteout even knowing if MLG will fuck it up again? Not a chance... The "give us money for bigger pricepool" just feels dikish to me.
Btw1: ROFL for your "HURTING ESPORTS" comment... rofl..
Btw2: 30$ seems pretty expensive? I doubt this will entertain me more than the Homestory Cup (which I bought for HD) and costs 6 times more?
On July 29 2011 20:59 Garfunko wrote: Some people are in the mindset that they should have the best players fly in across the world every event and watch the stream for free in HD with no ads ..just because...!?
These types of people are hurting esports by not supporting them, and have to move out of mamas basement and live in the real world for a change. Everything cost money, and if you wanna keep seeing more sc2 events of this high quality, you gotta support it man, just common sense really.
No one said anything like that.
The "problem" with the statement for me is I read it like: "Pay us 30$ or we will keep our kinda low pricepool"
I mean? WTF?
I most probably won't buy it anyway (and never said I would), but that’s because I most can't watch the whole thing anyway. I don't care about adds and the quality on the free stream was "ok" (last time I saw it, which is some time ago )... If I buy it, I will do it spontaneous because while the event is running... In advance whiteout even knowing if MLG will fuck it up again? Not a chance... The "give us money for bigger pricepool" just feels dikish to me.
Btw1: ROFL for your "HURTING ESPORTS" comment... rofl..
Btw2: 30$ seems pretty expensive? I doubt this will entertain me more than the Homestory Cup (which I bought for HD) and costs 6 times more?
You do realise that you don't have to buy the 30$ pass to be a member?
I just bought a silver membership. Three months for HD streams at 9.99$(Which is so cheap if your a european), why the hell wouldnt you buy it :D
Also if you buy one now, you will have 3 HQ streams (Anaheim, Raleigh and Orlando), so that is like 3.33$ for one event. Quite good price if you ask me....
Twitter misuse at its finest, but really mlg should make sure first of all that it is easy and convenient to buy the pass. I was just at the homepage and didn't find the "buy me" membership pass in 2-3 minutes of looking. That is no good. Under the mlg-shop area there's a category called hd-pass - but it's empty. Work out your own issues before you go begging/threatening for money..
On July 29 2011 20:59 Garfunko wrote: Some people are in the mindset that they should have the best players fly in across the world every event and watch the stream for free in HD with no ads ..just because...!?
These types of people are hurting esports by not supporting them, and have to move out of mamas basement and live in the real world for a change. Everything cost money, and if you wanna keep seeing more sc2 events of this high quality, you gotta support it man, just common sense really.
No one said anything like that.
The "problem" with the statement for me is I read it like: "Pay us 30$ or we will keep our kinda low pricepool"
I mean? WTF?
I most probably won't buy it anyway (and never said I would), but that’s because I can't watch the whole thing anyway. I don't care about adds and the quality on the free stream was "ok" (last time I saw it, which is some time ago )... If I buy it, I will do it spontaneous while the event is running... In advance whiteout even knowing if MLG will fuck it up again? Not a chance... The "give us money for bigger pricepool" just feels dikish to me.
Btw1: ROFL for your "HURTING ESPORTS" comment... rofl..
Btw2: 30$ seems pretty expensive? I doubt this will entertain me more than the Homestory Cup (which I bought for HD) and costs 6 times more?
You also realise that it costs 6 times as more because you get 6 times the content? Its not only $30 for one MLG, its for the year
On July 29 2011 14:21 MisterFred wrote: No. No it is not. Yes, MLG needs to increase their prize pools to be considered a genuine major in the line up of SC2 tournaments. No, more memberships are not going to give them the desperately needed cash to do that. Prize pools are probably less than 1% of their budget. Miniscule.
Edit: what InControl said. I'll go further and address Sundance myself: dick move.
Yea what a Dick, provide the best tournaments in North America.
You could do the NASL thing and throw money at people and HOPE that the product measures up.
You could do the MLG thing of laying down a solid foundation and growing steadily.
They've got all the best players coming.
No one is not coming because the prize pool is too low.
Just because a few fringe players want 10th place to be worth a few more bucks, doesn't warrant risk the stability of the best eSports league that NA has going.
On July 29 2011 20:59 Garfunko wrote: Some people are in the mindset that they should have the best players fly in across the world every event and watch the stream for free in HD with no ads ..just because...!?
These types of people are hurting esports by not supporting them, and have to move out of mamas basement and live in the real world for a change. Everything cost money, and if you wanna keep seeing more sc2 events of this high quality, you gotta support it man, just common sense really.
No one said anything like that.
The "problem" with the statement for me is I read it like: "Pay us 30$ or we will keep our kinda low pricepool"
I mean? WTF?
I most probably won't buy it anyway (and never said I would), but that’s because I can't watch the whole thing anyway. I don't care about adds and the quality on the free stream was "ok" (last time I saw it, which is some time ago )... If I buy it, I will do it spontaneous while the event is running... In advance whiteout even knowing if MLG will fuck it up again? Not a chance... The "give us money for bigger pricepool" just feels dikish to me.
Btw1: ROFL for your "HURTING ESPORTS" comment... rofl..
Btw2: 30$ seems pretty expensive? I doubt this will entertain me more than the Homestory Cup (which I bought for HD) and costs 6 times more?
Well, you are reading the statement wrong...it says that if we buy 100k passes, they will increase prize pool, it says nothing about what happens if we don't buy the passes.
I don't understand this whole thing really from TL members.
MLG will profit.
Players will profit.
People buying the membership will get the perks.
Who loses? Why are people so outraged by the idea of it.
To Incontrol: Why are you always quick to criticize everything. You always complain about how posters flame you and stuff and you wonder why. Just practice, show up at tourneys, and try to win.
On July 29 2011 20:59 Garfunko wrote: Some people are in the mindset that they should have the best players fly in across the world every event and watch the stream for free in HD with no ads ..just because...!?
These types of people are hurting esports by not supporting them, and have to move out of mamas basement and live in the real world for a change. Everything cost money, and if you wanna keep seeing more sc2 events of this high quality, you gotta support it man, just common sense really.
No one said anything like that.
The "problem" with the statement for me is I read it like: "Pay us 30$ or we will keep our kinda low pricepool"
I mean? WTF?
I most probably won't buy it anyway (and never said I would), but that’s because I can't watch the whole thing anyway. I don't care about adds and the quality on the free stream was "ok" (last time I saw it, which is some time ago )... If I buy it, I will do it spontaneous while the event is running... In advance whiteout even knowing if MLG will fuck it up again? Not a chance... The "give us money for bigger pricepool" just feels dikish to me.
Btw1: ROFL for your "HURTING ESPORTS" comment... rofl..
Btw2: 30$ seems pretty expensive? I doubt this will entertain me more than the Homestory Cup (which I bought for HD) and costs 6 times more?
Well, you are reading the statement wrong...it says that if we buy 100k passes, they will increase prize pool, it says nothing about what happens if we don't buy the passes.
"UPDATE Sorry I was reading through his twitter and saw a guy tweet Sundance saying that number is way too high. Sundance replied with the following:
Sundance wrote: "if that number is to high than I need to cut prize money next year.""
I bought a HD pass for the second last event, the one that failed hard. I thought I had a free pass for the event that just passed, but apparently I have just received another free pass code for this coming event. I pay for the HD pass every MLG to support them, I enjoy there events because it normally starts at a good time for me ( NA ) as well the all day tournament thing more enjoyable than the 5 matches a night stuff.
I'll be buying the Silver membership, no doubt. The amount of entertainment I get for only $9,99 is amazing. I <3 Starcraft 2, a lot, and I'll do it for eSports, damn it.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
What a hypocrite, he cried so much about people flaming NASL and then comes right back does it to another organization.
what? he has a valid point. memberships will give them a shit ton of money, seems obvious they would raise prize pool.
No he has a point. Incontrol was real quick to knock the TL staff for criticizing the NASL. Saying something along the lines that organizers of another tournament shouldn't publicly criticize other tournaments.
Firstly, iNcontroL isnt an organiser of a tournament, he cut all ties with NASL. he may guest cast, but he is simply a player now.
Secondly, His post is hardly flaming. Sarcasm where sarcasm is due.
On July 29 2011 20:59 Garfunko wrote: Some people are in the mindset that they should have the best players fly in across the world every event and watch the stream for free in HD with no ads ..just because...!?
These types of people are hurting esports by not supporting them, and have to move out of mamas basement and live in the real world for a change. Everything cost money, and if you wanna keep seeing more sc2 events of this high quality, you gotta support it man, just common sense really.
No one said anything like that.
The "problem" with the statement for me is I read it like: "Pay us 30$ or we will keep our kinda low pricepool"
I mean? WTF?
I most probably won't buy it anyway (and never said I would), but that’s because I can't watch the whole thing anyway. I don't care about adds and the quality on the free stream was "ok" (last time I saw it, which is some time ago )... If I buy it, I will do it spontaneous while the event is running... In advance whiteout even knowing if MLG will fuck it up again? Not a chance... The "give us money for bigger pricepool" just feels dikish to me.
Btw1: ROFL for your "HURTING ESPORTS" comment... rofl..
Btw2: 30$ seems pretty expensive? I doubt this will entertain me more than the Homestory Cup (which I bought for HD) and costs 6 times more?
Well, you are reading the statement wrong...it says that if we buy 100k passes, they will increase prize pool, it says nothing about what happens if we don't buy the passes.
"UPDATE Sorry I was reading through his twitter and saw a guy tweet Sundance saying that number is way too high. Sundance replied with the following:
Sundance wrote: "if that number is to high than I need to cut prize money next year.""
Interesting, well i choose to believe that they have a good reason to ask people to buy their shit, because in the past they showed that they actually care about customers. Also, people need to realize that they spend 190k on prize pool each year on sc2 only. I can imagine halo and cod being even more expensive as it's team game. I don't know. Sorry if i sounded harsh.
On July 29 2011 20:59 Garfunko wrote: Some people are in the mindset that they should have the best players fly in across the world every event and watch the stream for free in HD with no ads ..just because...!?
These types of people are hurting esports by not supporting them, and have to move out of mamas basement and live in the real world for a change. Everything cost money, and if you wanna keep seeing more sc2 events of this high quality, you gotta support it man, just common sense really.
No one said anything like that.
The "problem" with the statement for me is I read it like: "Pay us 30$ or we will keep our kinda low pricepool"
I mean? WTF?
I most probably won't buy it anyway (and never said I would), but that’s because I can't watch the whole thing anyway. I don't care about adds and the quality on the free stream was "ok" (last time I saw it, which is some time ago )... If I buy it, I will do it spontaneous while the event is running... In advance whiteout even knowing if MLG will fuck it up again? Not a chance... The "give us money for bigger pricepool" just feels dikish to me.
Btw1: ROFL for your "HURTING ESPORTS" comment... rofl..
Btw2: 30$ seems pretty expensive? I doubt this will entertain me more than the Homestory Cup (which I bought for HD) and costs 6 times more?
Well, you are reading the statement wrong...it says that if we buy 100k passes, they will increase prize pool, it says nothing about what happens if we don't buy the passes.
"UPDATE Sorry I was reading through his twitter and saw a guy tweet Sundance saying that number is way too high. Sundance replied with the following:
Sundance wrote: "if that number is to high than I need to cut prize money next year.""
You do know he was trolling that guy right? oh god... cmon ppl!!
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
What a hypocrite, he cried so much about people flaming NASL and then comes right back does it to another organization.
what? he has a valid point. memberships will give them a shit ton of money, seems obvious they would raise prize pool.
No he has a point. Incontrol was real quick to knock the TL staff for criticizing the NASL. Saying something along the lines that organizers of another tournament shouldn't publicly criticize other tournaments.
Firstly, iNcontroL isnt an organiser of a tournament, he cut all ties with NASL. he may guest cast, but he is simply a player now.
Secondly, His post is hardly flaming. Sarcasm where sarcasm is due.
Yet he represents an organization that owns and runs tournaments.
On July 29 2011 18:29 JoFritzMD wrote: My favourite part is that it doesn't matter what the prize pool is. They could be playing for free and we would all still watch and the pro's would still go.
Why will we watch? Because it's a great event. All of the worlds top players are there. It is THE competition to win.
Why will the pros go? Because it is great publicity for their sponsors and it has, as I mentioned above, the greatest competition in terms of who is there.
I looked at the Championship Bracket this year and in half of the groups there is no one player who is above the rest. In the groups that you do have a player who is clearly better, the second spot is a toss up between everyone in the group.
Then you look at the Open Bracket and I cry when I think about how many great players aren't able to get through just because of how few open spots there are.
I couldn't care less what Sundance did. He could drive through the streets of LA in a lamborghini throwing money out of the window as he laughed at the people who spent 30$ so they didn't have to see ads and could make out the supply count. I would still watch it. I would still pay my 30$ and I'm pretty sure 90% of the other people who pay for the HD stream would do the same.
You have absolutely no clue how these things work. The prizepool is EVERYTHING. The reason Dreamhack is big? The prizepool. The reason GSL is big? The prizepool.
The prizepool says all about an event's class. The bigger sponsors -> the bigger prizepool -> the bigger the event. Players (Like MMA, DRG, IdrA, HuK, Naniwa) wouldn't show up to MLG like this if the prizes were 1 dollar for 1st place, 0 for second. Even if the event was as big as now.
Yes, it's a chance for sponsors to show up, but we as spectators get even more into the tournaments, when the prizes are big. And so do the players.
Even with their salaries, it's still a nice catch that you make 5K extra pocketmoney for winning. Or even a % as that amount if some such is contracted.
Talking about eSports exisiting without prizemoney, is like saying you could have huge pokertournaments without prizemoney.
-.- You are completely and utterly wrong.
The reason MLG is so big, is because of the huge amounts of media/coverage. It's at these events, that sponsors are getting their money back, and then some.
Pricepool everything? NO! Get your facts straight!
I agree with you that the prizepool isn't everything. I guess I was going to the other extreme to make a point. These events would not be as big, if the prizepool wasn't there. I think we can all agree on that. Prizepool matters.
I just bought a Gold membership yesterday before seeing this thread. $29.99 for a year is very reasonable, seeing how I plan to watch every event and and would have had to buy a pass for each one for HQ while the Gold gives me HQ access for each event for the next year.
On July 29 2011 22:14 BronzeKnee wrote: I just bought a Gold membership yesterday before seeing this thread. $29.99 for a year is very reasonable, seeing how I plan to watch every event and and would have had to buy a pass for each one for HQ while the Gold gives me HQ access for each event for the next year.
Same here. Don't regret it.
But I'm really kind of rolling my eyes at 'imma cut the prize pool' bit. I immediately read that in the Heath Ledger Joker voice.
"... and if by the end of the day One Hundred Thousand Subscribers isn't reached... I will cut the prize pool. HUEHEUHAUEUAHUHEUAHUEA"
Whats with everyone complaining that MLG is so greedy all of a sudden? Aren't you guys happy they're bringing out 4 Koreans every MLG? They've done a lot for us already.
first of all, i think 30$ a year is really cheap compared to what you get.
But i dont get this whole acting of sundance recently, it's almost like "if you dont pay enough i will cut the prize pools" etc. etc.
Especially tweets like those below make him sound a little bit like a douche... "How far does a sense of entitlement get you? 100,000 memberships doesn't equal the money that I have personally invested."
just my 2 cents, got a gold pass anyways because i want to support the game and esports
On July 29 2011 22:21 Sandro wrote: Whats with everyone complaining that MLG is so greedy all of a sudden? Aren't you guys happy they're bringing out 4 Koreans every MLG? They've done a lot for us already.
It's not really complaining about them being greedy. It just seems like getting 100,000 people to pay for this feature is setting the bar a bit too high. I'm sure they get a ton of viewers but that almost sounds like they are wanting every single one to buy it. Then another thing that rubs people the wrong way is his remark about lowering the prize pool if this goal is not met.
lol. i actually sees it as if sundance was bragging and informing us that mlg going to get 100,000 subscribers soon and next year's sc2 prize money is going to increase. I was even more sure with his response of " i might decrease the prize pool". So yeah.
Especially because it is unlikely that a CEO is going to make that kind of statement. "If i get 100,000 subscribers, i will increase the prize money" if he doesn't think that it is likely to be met. That means that if next year the prize pool stays the same, everyone knows they didn't hit 100,000 and to set up an expectation and says we didn't really achieve it is quite bad for the image.
So, pretty sure MLG gonna hit 100,000 viewers and next year prize pool gonna increase and that's more the point of the tweet.
On July 29 2011 22:26 SeriouR wrote: If he wants to icnrease prize pool he has to get better sponsors that pay more money,
That's an unsustainable business model, in my opinion. One can't expect a company to base prize pools completely off of sponsors. Especially when I guarantee most of that money is put back into operating costs such as hiring the satellite trucks to increase stream quality. The whole purpose of increasing memberships is to make a sustainable business model that can produce revenue to be reinvested into the company. But I guess people overlook that little part.
Economies of scale hasn't kicked in yet. MLG still has to ramp up production equipment and rent area for the conventions. Which probably increases for each event as they get bigger and that trend will continue until a certain point.
Personally I've bought my pass, no reason not to support a company that has done so much for eSports in America and internationally once other plans come to fruition.
On July 29 2011 22:26 enecateReAP wrote: Hey guys! Give me $1million and I'll create a tournament with a bigger prize pool than MLGs...
Do people think that all of that imaginary million would be profit? Lol. Seems like people like to ignore the fact that it cost a lot of money as well to organize what MLG is doing.
On July 29 2011 22:26 enecateReAP wrote: Hey guys! Give me $1million and I'll create a tournament with a bigger prize pool than MLGs...
Do people think that all of that imaginary million would be profit? Lol. Seems like people like to ignore the fact that it cost a lot of money as well to organize what MLG is doing.
Edit: meant to write something...
Exactly, getting the venue itself would cost a couple hundred thousand
can anyone help me ? where do we find the tournament bracket and the players attending ? can't find it on the site, also, with the silver 9,99, can you access HD VOD ?
You can't rely on people buying your products. MLG is a great tourny, but if they don't get 100k subscriber and lower the price money(Which wont happen) MLG will just go down. Noone will travel for a 2k first place or whatever.
It's sad to hear that from MLG cause it's complete BS. They act like SC2 needs MLG to grow and it's just stupid to say. If MLG goes down another tourny will rise and that's it.
If they deliver good content will buy their stuff and it'll be easy to rise their price pool.
I just think it's poor way to come out and talk about the prize pool. Not the bet PR for sure.
They said last event they had 450K unique viewers, so if you count this upcoming tournament Anaheim, and you unclude the one in August before national finals, I think it is possible to get 100K people to buy HD pass. We'll see.
Maybe people are forgetting that MLG is not only Starcraft. I'm not entirely sure how many people pay to see CoD: BO (Is that still being played?) and Halo but there must be some too.
Looking forward to Raleigh with League of Legends being added (IIRC) I think 100.000 is a fair goal. Sure, it's a little lame to announce it this way but at least they are willing to make it higher at some point.
won't be paying for this, simply because they replaced tastosis with husky..
also +1 to incontrol, I doubt the stream will even get 100k viewers.. so to say 100k memberships is a bit stupid, im thinking he just said that to get ppl to pay $
What's a membership? I can't watch streams in the weekends so often (at least not at the times when most stuff air) and I never understood the vod service of MLG.
Provide me easy to get vods like IPL and GSL and I will watch it. Dont have terrible lag or setup like NASL and my wallet is open.
I don't really care to much of the prize pool either i'm sure it will stay competitive.
edit: Yeah if it's unattainable then it's obviously a stupid thing to do.
still even if its not possible, you got to love sundance. he clearly listening to the pro gamers and taking everything into consideration... unlike another company i will not name! But this was talked about a lot on inside the game. So happy with MLG
honestly MLG needs to increase their prize pool regardless of how many ppl are paying or not. Also how many viewers does Halo and Cod get? im sure its much less then sc2 and they got the same amount prize pool -.- Infact I think Halo has a bigger prize pool then sc2.. kinda ridiculous.
interesting that it used to be $10 for 1 event. smart price drop it definitely made the difference for me.
beats the hell out of any locals sports event or movie i can attend. and i probably won't have to listen to a top level player answer whether or not p. v. g. is their toughest match up.
On July 29 2011 23:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote: less than $10 for 3 events...
interesting that it used to be $10 for 1 event. smart price drop it definitely made the difference for me.
beats the hell out of any locals sports event or movie i can attend.
Yeah, I went on the site expecting a pretty huge cost. Even 10 per event is pretty cheap. I should've subscribed earlier, it's worth it just to don't get those damn ads from last event, like the Bic one.
On July 29 2011 21:13 Good1 wrote: There are too many invalid questions and guesses You must ask yourself only 1 thing: Is the product worth the money?
Did anyone else see this? He hit the nail on its head already.
It's up to the players to decide if the prize pool is attractive enough. If the pros don't think that it's worth their time and effort to attend, they'll simply go elsewhere and so would us viewers.
I think between the 3 games 100k is reasonable. Like someone previously said, if you add LoL in Raleigh (which has a HUGE playerbase) I think they'll reach it easily.
On July 29 2011 23:19 SuperFanBoy wrote: honestly MLG needs to increase their prize pool regardless of how many ppl are paying or not. Also how many viewers does Halo and Cod get? im sure its much less then sc2 and they got the same amount prize pool -.- Infact I think Halo has a bigger prize pool then sc2.. kinda ridiculous.
it's not, halo is played by five people. so divide the prize pool by five.
On July 29 2011 23:19 SuperFanBoy wrote: honestly MLG needs to increase their prize pool regardless of how many ppl are paying or not. Also how many viewers does Halo and Cod get? im sure its much less then sc2 and they got the same amount prize pool -.- Infact I think Halo has a bigger prize pool then sc2.. kinda ridiculous.
it's not, halo is played by five people. so divide the prize pool by five.
it still does not change the fact that halo has a higher prize pool. Sc2 gets 5k while halo gets 25 k.
Yes i perfectly understand that its 5 ppl, im just saying that if mlg wants to continue supporting a halo prize pool like that, why is it leeching off the sc2 based subscribers . I doubt hardly anyone would pay to see a FPS game. sc2 is more than pulling its weight for suscribers and yet we have an overall very low prize, 5k is chomp change. This tournament is mainly for glory, most ppl entering this will be loosing money in fact.
On July 29 2011 23:19 SuperFanBoy wrote: honestly MLG needs to increase their prize pool regardless of how many ppl are paying or not. Also how many viewers does Halo and Cod get? im sure its much less then sc2 and they got the same amount prize pool -.- Infact I think Halo has a bigger prize pool then sc2.. kinda ridiculous.
it's not, halo is played by five people. so divide the prize pool by five.
it still does not change the fact that halo has a higher prize pool. Sc2 gets 5k while halo gets 25 k.
Yes i perfectly understand that its 5 ppl, im just saying that if mlg wants to continue supporting a halo prize pool like that, why is it leeching off the sc2 based subscribers . I doubt hardly anyone would pay to see a FPS game.
5 people? Do they have an alternate or something? Halo is normally 4v4.
On July 29 2011 23:19 SuperFanBoy wrote: honestly MLG needs to increase their prize pool regardless of how many ppl are paying or not. Also how many viewers does Halo and Cod get? im sure its much less then sc2 and they got the same amount prize pool -.- Infact I think Halo has a bigger prize pool then sc2.. kinda ridiculous.
it's not, halo is played by five people. so divide the prize pool by five.
it still does not change the fact that halo has a higher prize pool. Sc2 gets 5k while halo gets 25 k.
Yes i perfectly understand that its 5 ppl, im just saying that if mlg wants to continue supporting a halo prize pool like that, why is it leeching off the sc2 based subscribers . I doubt hardly anyone would pay to see a FPS game.
5 people? Do they have an alternate or something? Halo is normally 4v4.
well whatever it is , that just shows you how much i care for FPS games.
so its 20 ,000 prize pool then, thats still alot compared to a 5k.
It is a kind of like a season and the final tournament gives 50k to the winner. That is nothing to scoff at. NASL gave away 50k to the winner, but it was more condensed in season length.
They are a company, they need to profit off of MLG. I would rather them have low prize pools and profit so they can continue MLG for all of us to enjoy to watch.
On July 29 2011 23:55 Mementoss wrote: They are a company, they need to profit off of MLG. I would rather them have low prize pools and profit so they can continue MLG for all of us to enjoy to watch.
They make a fuckload of money btw... Just saying... They could EASILY raise the prizepool by as much as 20-30k. They just dont have to. MLG is about going to an event, having fun, meeting players/ fans and having glory. Should it be higher? Ofcourse.
I'm getting tired of this advertising method in both streams and events. The "if we get [enter ridiculous number] viewers/subscribers; I'll give you something" method just feels so much like a TV infomercial or something. Just grates on my nerves, and it's obvious that the reducing the prize pool is just a troll.
I also don't understand all of the concern over prize pool. I, at least, watch most of all for player pool, story line, and production. As long as the prize pool is large enough to bring in a good player pool, what's the problem? I can see the need to raise the prize pool soon for the 'smaller' MLG tournaments sense some of the Euro guys don't find the investment in flying over worth the experience + prize pool, but as of now it seems to be a fine player pool.
There's plenty of tournaments with large prize pools, good player pools that go unnoticed mainly because either they don't have a big name in the community yet, or they just don't have the excitement factor of a LAN. I'm unconvinced that giving more prize money in an evenly distributed way will increase viewer count substantially. Are people holding out on subscribing because of the prize pool?
Okay guys, I just read through a lot of comments saying its too high. You have to remember for us starcraft players, this is just another tournament. A big one yes, but still we have many others. For the call of duty guys, and the halo guys, this is it.
Holy shit you guys spew out a whole lot of negativity and blow a simple tweet into the end of the world. I only read the first three pages, but what the hell?
Sundance has stated on multiple occasions that due to the way they do prize pools the SC2 pool won't change this season. Now, he's just throwing something out there "oh, if we hit this really large milestone we'll increase the pool".
On July 29 2011 23:55 Mementoss wrote: They are a company, they need to profit off of MLG. I would rather them have low prize pools and profit so they can continue MLG for all of us to enjoy to watch.
They make a fuckload of money btw... Just saying... They could EASILY raise the prizepool by as much as 20-30k. They just dont have to. MLG is about going to an event, having fun, meeting players/ fans and having glory. Should it be higher? Ofcourse.
MLG has pretty much always been in the red.
All they have to do is play that "WEEEEE CANT BE DEEEEEEFTEADDDDDDDDD" bing ad 10 times in a row and then people will be scrambling for that membership.
Would love to know something like a progress to see how many people are actually willing to pay for esports. I will buy my gold membership because those events are just awesome.
Sundance isn't holding the community hostage. MLG has made lots of changes while not demanding anything in return. Granted we've flush them with views and dollars so they should accommodate us but that's exactly why they keep catering to us.
They said "show us you care and well add it to the circuit" so we made JP a celebrity.
They said "sell out your passes in a day and well raise the competitor pool size" so we sold out tix in one minute.
They said "fill out the arena and well have more chairs". So we spilled all over the floor all over the arena.
They said "show enough interest in subs and well offer adfree stream" so we blew that up and got what we have now.
Now they say "make the subs explode and well funnel it right back to the players". Why would we do anything other than what we've always done: blow up their expectations?
Center stage, two streams, international competition... we keep shattering their greatest hopes and best case scenarios and they have to recognize and reward us for it. Why do anything else now? Sundance isn't threatening us, he's constantly amazed by us and he's challenging us again just to see how powerful a force we are. Why should we do anything else than what we aways do: blow their minds.
It is fine for Sundance to tweet this. He is just having fun trying to get people excited about their new membership program and sign up. The prize pool will probably increase next year regardless. They have spent a lot of their budget on improving the furniture and hardware used in this tournament. With that inplace next years budget should be able to support a larger prize pool.
This is the mininum rental rate for Hall A which I believe MLG is using this weekend. This does not include their internet, transportation costs, employee payroll for the weekend and any unforseen expenses.
If MLG is making a ton of money and is super profitable, wouldn't every company in the world emulate what they are doing right now? Relax and see what the next year brings. Budgets are set in stone for companies or else they would go under pretty fast. Remember this is not 100k subscribers for SC2, it is for all of their games on the tour.
On July 30 2011 00:23 Kralic wrote:If MLG is making a ton of money and is super profitable, wouldn't every company in the world emulate what they are doing right now?
Once again I have to say that MLG has pretty much always lost money and has made a ton of investments into their product this year so I doubt they are making as much money as you think they are.
Can I just ask, those who have paid for passes for the ad-free stream, what exactly are you watching if not ads? I remember watching the crowed just sitting around whenever games arent being casted and ads aren't being played. Is that it, or is there some sort of content being shown? Otherwise, i dont really find "ad-free stream" to be much of a good feature, but rather one that's just as lame.
On July 30 2011 00:24 blizzind wrote: what kind of shady stuff is this? if they don't reach that goal they would have to decrease the prize pool? to what? zero?
Are you truly suggesting that MLG would decrease their prize pool to zero so that no pro players would attend the event and no fans would watch the streams causing them to lose lots of money?
I think Sundance was using the tweet mostly as a hype attempt. Still, I didn't think it would backfire this much especially given how generous they have been to their fans in the past. I'm not a really an MLG supporter due to the poor treatment that the SC2 open bracket players face, but I'm surprised that so many fans (presumably who also voted MLG as the best event of DH, MLG, NASL) are complaining so much.
At least they aren't doing shady dealings behind everyone's back. At least they aren't being unsustainable and hyping crap up and coming up with $100,000 prizepools without taking into account the production costs and level of professionalism required.
On July 29 2011 17:27 Bobster wrote: If you can't increase the prize pool budget, just take the money from the CoD and Halo circuits, ridiculous that they're getting anything close to the same amount of prize money per person when SC2 is the event that brings in the publicity, attention, people and as a result - the money.
All the prizemoney from CoD is coming from SONY, and Halo always gets sold out.
Halo has not been sold out since H2 was there >.> and california was rather bad the last time they had an MLG there.
On July 30 2011 00:24 blizzind wrote: what kind of shady stuff is this? if they don't reach that goal they would have to decrease the prize pool? to what? zero?
Can someone point me to where all of you idiots are getting this decreasing the prize pool shit? Quite making things up.
edit: didn't see the edit to the thread
It's not a threat by any means. He's saying that there is more than enough people watching the streams that the number isn't -that- ridiculous.
I think it's pretty obvious that the lowering of prize money is a joke. Lots of people overreacting ><. I wonder how close they are to the 100k atm though.
"if that number is to high than I need to cut prize money next year."
wow.. that comment really pisses me off. The sc2 community should boycott the MLG.
edit ~ how about considering getting rid of the female interviewers and having the commentators do the interviews, im guessing those female interviewers get paid, the money saved can be put into the prize pool.
Everyone getting pissed you realize its a joke? MLG has been great to the customers so far, you really think they mean something like this? Sundance is probably just using this as a marketing ploy or a way to generate hype.
On July 29 2011 17:27 Bobster wrote: If you can't increase the prize pool budget, just take the money from the CoD and Halo circuits, ridiculous that they're getting anything close to the same amount of prize money per person when SC2 is the event that brings in the publicity, attention, people and as a result - the money.
All the prizemoney from CoD is coming from SONY, and Halo always gets sold out.
Halo has not been sold out since H2 was there >.> and california was rather bad the last time they had an MLG there.
Well that first part is straight up factually incorrect. Columbus was sold out for H3 passes every time. Meadows and Dallas have also sold out in the past. As did the DC and Nashville combines.
But yes, Anaheim '09 was lightly attended Halo-wise, which is why they didn't go back in '10.
On July 30 2011 01:43 SuperFanBoy wrote: "if that number is to high than I need to cut prize money next year."
wow.. that comment really pisses me off. The sc2 community should boycott the MLG.
edit ~ how about considering getting rid of the female interviewers and having the commentators do the interviews, im guessing those female interviewers get paid, the money saved can be put into the prize pool.
Lowering of the prize money is obviously not happening. Remember these prize pools were set a long time ago and MLG did not think SC2 would be this popular. There is no way MLG thought SC2 would beat out Halo and here it is. Increasing the prize pool for next year is going to happen.
On July 30 2011 02:13 Flying_Cake wrote: Just buy the frigin membership. If you don't want to contribute to esports then don't, leave the community and stop complaining.
That is not the best way to convince someone. Actually, i am sure it will have the opposite effect.
So when Incontrol says something ignorant/sarcastic, everyone is quick to agree with him despite not knowing how much profit MLG makes and their general business model? I'm not entirely surprised by this anymore.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
On July 30 2011 02:23 CosmicSpiral wrote: So when Incontrol says something ignorant/sarcastic, everyone is quick to agree with him despite not knowing how much profit MLG makes and their general business model? I'm not entirely surprised by this anymore.
He made a joking remark which basically states the same thing Sundance is wanting. Part of me wants to believe they are really close to the 100k mark and he is just trying to finish it off. However there is the part of we don't know how many they have exactly. I would like to believe it is close to the goal, however I'm not sure MLG has a huge following that will be able to support 100k purchases of the pass.
We have some idea of unique viewer ideas, but how many people just wanted to check it out and weren't all that interested in what they saw? How many of the viewers aren't able to even afford or are capable of even paying they money? That basis is more directed at age, as I'm sure a good portion of the viewers are under the age of 18.
I'd imagine as well he his expecting a new big mass of people coming into the MLG scene via LoL with how much stream success they had at Dreamhack. Lets be honest though, 100k people tends to be a lot. For example Sundance has under 33,000 followers on Twitter, and as we know so far is his only outlet of letting people know about this. Who knows how many of those accounts are inactive.
The only sour part about it is by putting the pressure on the fans to come through for him. If we aren't able to we aren't punished the competitors are. That is the part that is truly unusual.
For the people that think he is joking he followed it up with more tweets such as.
"I honestly don't care if you love me or hate me - I'm here to do a job and that job involves creating a stable future for esports."
"You can be part of that or not. But what happen is now up to all of you. Not me."
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
On July 30 2011 02:23 CosmicSpiral wrote: So when Incontrol says something ignorant/sarcastic, everyone is quick to agree with him despite not knowing how much profit MLG makes and their general business model? I'm not entirely surprised by this anymore.
He made a joking remark which basically states the same thing Sundance is wanting. Part of me wants to believe they are really close to the 100k mark and he is just trying to finish it off. However there is the part of we don't know how many they have exactly. I would like to believe it is close to the goal, however I'm not sure MLG has a huge following that will be able to support 100k purchases of the pass.
We have some idea of unique viewer ideas, but how many people just wanted to check it out and weren't all that interested in what they saw? How many of the viewers aren't able to even afford or are capable of even paying they money? That basis is more directed at age, as I'm sure a good portion of the viewers are under the age of 18.
I'd imagine as well he his expecting a new big mass of people coming into the MLG scene via LoL with how much stream success they had at Dreamhack. Lets be honest though, 100k people tends to be a lot. For example Sundance has under 33,000 followers on Twitter, and as we know so far is his only outlet of letting people know about this. Who knows how many of those accounts are inactive.
The only sour part about it is by putting the pressure on the fans to come through for him. If we aren't able to we aren't punished the competitors are. That is the part that is truly unusual.
For the people that think he is joking he followed it up with more tweets such as.
"I honestly don't care if you love me or hate me - I'm here to do a job and that job involves creating a stable future for esports."
"You can be part of that or not. But what happen is now up to all of you. Not me."
I'm not ragging on Incontrol since I can't tell whether he's being sarcastic or not, and I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt on such things. I'm ragging on the people who clearly think Incontrol is mocking the announcement.
MLG has never been amazing at advertising things like this. I wouldn't depend on the LoL community for financial support though.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
So Sundance, can we have some insight then? How close to the mark are we at this point? I bought a membership.
It's fine to say that if the tournaments are successful at bringing in money the prize pool will go up, and even that it will go up a lot, and even good to put some numbers on what it will take to make that happen. But it doesn't make any sense that with 100k subscribers it would go up a ton, and with less it would go down. Is there no middle ground where it would stay roughly stable? Maybe there are economies of scale where the business either runs very successfully at a huge scale or goes bankrupt. But short of MLG going out of business, I don't see how he's claiming that every number they can get is either wonderful or horrible, with nothing in between. I also wish we could stop treating ticket-buying like it's a charitable donation. You should buy a ticket if what it gets you is worth it to you.
I don't know why this thread wasn't closed in the first place. So far we have 14 pages of people arguing about and criticizing things they don't understand or misinterpreted. I can't see how sundance's tweets can be seen so negatively by some of you...
People were bitching about the prize pool being too small, he made a tweet about what would help raise the prize pool. I'm pretty sure he wasn't threatening to lower the prize pool next year to encourage people to buy more passes.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
well I bought the double HQ pass so your only getting less then a nickel a day from me now. Thats a hype post if I've ever saw one.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Totally agree with you and i am going to buy a membership pass for sure <3
On July 30 2011 03:09 Art_of_Kill wrote: i just say so much: event time for europe 2am - 8am, i dont see why anyone would watch let alone buy hd stream
I'm in europe, i will watch and i've bought a pass.
I would buy it in an instant if I didn't just graduate from uni with a £80,000 debt hanging over my head... Rest assured, I'll definitely do so once I find a job!
I took it as Sundance promoting his company, kinda what a good businessman would do. Or he could just sit around hoping that people will magically decide to do it. It is a good tactic as a businessman to motivate people to purchase your product.
People taking incontrol's comments to heart. Remember when Incontrol was telling you to buy season passes for NASL. How is this any different? He was promoting something he was a part of, and Sundance is promoting something he is a part of.
Obviously Incontrol would want more prize money. He is a player, it's in his best interest to comment about the prize money and hope it increase. But I just don't understand why he makes comments like that, sarcastic or not. Wasn't he talking about the Nasl criticisms that he would get and how he didn't like it. Even if he is joking that comment will always add fuel to a fire of people mocking Sundance.
Sundance is a great guy. People think he is only about the money, which he is not (yeah, he cares money, but he is a grown man who has done a great job expanding a company, he deserves it). Where as Starcraft doesn't need MLG, it is true, but MLG definitely adds a lot of value to starcraft by offering some of the best content every single tournament. Sundance is a businessman, and in e-sports he has done pretty damn well. He is a motivated guy who has made MLG a LOT bigger. I've been an MLG fan since '05 and to see how far it has come is great. Give him time and he will give you some of the most badass SC2 content available.
Plus when is the last time a CEO would actually be willing to talk to the general public and actually pay attention to their comments, usually you would get a CEO's assistant's assistant.
I don't know why people are upset at this. It has been a long time since MLG has increased the prize money for an event other than SC2, which was only recently increased because it was clearly too low given the demand. 100,000 memberships is not just a million dollars, it's proof that there is a big market that is willing to pay. That is really what sponsors want to see. You're not just giving money, you're also showing your commitment, and that counts for a lot.
On July 30 2011 03:09 Art_of_Kill wrote: i just say so much: event time for europe 2am - 8am, i dont see why anyone would watch let alone buy hd stream
Many of us in the states have done just that for the GSL. Should the MLG expect any less?
On Topic: Will be watching in HQ this weekend! Sundance. <3
Great, here comes incontrol to grab attention away from someone else by shitting things up; just can't stand when other people try to do something for the community, eh? Maybe someone's scared that NASL will lose ticket-holders in the wake of MLG's success, even though he's not "officially" involved with it anymore? Either way I look forward to more great things from MLG, and another embarrassing "I respect you" into cannon rush strategy from Geoff.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Don't take too much with what Incontrol says. He thinks he is an icon in the SC2 community. He thinks he knows more than he does. He thinks he is a businessman. He thinks he is a top tier player.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
I am just in love with what you are doing man! Keep it up!!! If there are 24 live events next year, could we have more than one down here in sunny Florida?! :D Also, could you let us know how close we are already to the 100000 membership mark?
On July 30 2011 03:18 Whole wrote: I would buy a pass if my work schedule wouldn't overlap with MLG. And I don't want to be an asshole to my coworkers and schedule off every 2 months.
You work Saturdays and Sundays too? Also, buying the membership gets you the VOD....
He's trying to promote and hype MLG, and esports in general. Sure he's going to make more money, but if we had 100,000 people pay to watch MLG, plus all the people who watch the low quality stream for free, E-sports would be absolutely huge. And to go with the huge growth of viewers, the prize pool would obviously have to be increased. 100k+ viewers aren't going to want to watch only $5,000 go to first place.
hmm 100,000 dosnt sound like to much when my student load comes in you can mark that down to 99,999 want esports to not fail, got to pay and make it in to a viable business, i am fine with that :D
Here's the thing: it seems that MLG isn't doing as well as anyone believes. It's professional, flashy and, for the most part, exceptionally run.
I don't doubt for a second that, should the NASL come into a questionable financial situation, we would see iNControl come down and say:
Hey guys, let's support e-sports! For that to happen, we really need you guys to support the organization by buying a subscription. It's a win-win situation. You get more SC2 to watch, with exceedingly competitive games because of a bigger, more lucrative prize-pool, and we get to stay in business.
What would you think about that? Do you think he'd feel pissed off if he got a similar, jack-ass response?
I got a good laugh out of iNcontrol's response, but that's because I know how hard it is to run a live event like this. It's a pain in the ass and you hope that one day the money will come in... So, let's support the organization who wants to entertain us and buy a damn membership.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
What you do is meaningful and appreciated, I stepped up and bought a membership the day they became available for sale, my friends did the same. I also have a big stupid grin on my face because I love your attitude toward the whole thing. It's that kind of attitude and determination that's going to make MLG a huge success in the future. Keep it up man. Ride or die!
The sad part is Sundance was always giving him uplifting tweets whenever he would say something about the negative criticisms that he was getting while working on NASL. Then he literally just turns around and makes stupid comments like that.
On July 30 2011 03:31 ajdoj14 wrote: The sad part is Sundance was always giving him uplifting tweets whenever he would say something about the negative criticisms that he was getting while working on NASL. Then he literally just turns around and makes stupid comments like that.
Wait--was Sundance collaborating with NASL, or were you referring to iNcontrol?
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
On July 30 2011 03:31 ajdoj14 wrote: The sad part is Sundance was always giving him uplifting tweets whenever he would say something about the negative criticisms that he was getting while working on NASL. Then he literally just turns around and makes stupid comments like that.
Wait--was Sundance collaborating with NASL, or were you referring to iNcontrol?
When Incontrol would get negative comments about his NASL stuff, Sundance would always tweet him something, like use the haters as fuel or something along those lines
Guys, that's Geoff being Geoff. I remember when he went on his binge posting when he first signed up here. He would always be on the WGTour forums and what not, but he would never post here. Then when he made his TL account, low and behold the trollish one-liner remarks started. He's always made comments like that.
On July 30 2011 03:27 FunnelC4kes wrote: Here's the thing: it seems that MLG isn't doing as well as anyone believes. It's professional, flashy and, for the most part, exceptionally run.
I don't doubt for a second that, should the NASL come into a questionable financial situation, we would see iNControl come down and say:
Hey guys, let's support e-sports! For that to happen, we really need you guys to support the organization by buying a subscription. It's a win-win situation. You get more SC2 to watch, with exceedingly competitive games because of a bigger, more lucrative prize-pool, and we get to stay in business.
What would you think about that? Do you think he'd feel pissed off if he got a similar, jack-ass response?
I got a good laugh out of iNcontrol's response, but that's because I know how hard it is to run a live event like this. It's a pain in the ass and you hope that one day the money will come in... So, let's support the organization who wants to entertain us and buy a damn membership.
This is probably true, he would probably do the same, or at least something similar, if NASL would have been in trouble. Actually, a lot of people bought the HD pass for the NASL partly because of his, in my opinion, injustified hype, which to many was a let down. But in all fairness, I understand that this feels a bit eery though, and I believe inc would put it in proper perspective. Id prefer it if sundance either (a) tried to just promote his stream regularly, without putting an ultimatum out like that ("Do this or there will be almost no prize money!") or (b) gives more information on the subject. I guess sponsorship only does not cut it, and I can understand it is a troublesome business..
But really, he tells us that the prize money will be raised if he gets X subscribers, while now he's talking about keeping his business alive. Give more clarity on the subject, this feels like I'm being "hustled", as that original message feels as though it would go to the prize money for the players. If you're going to be exact on the amount of subscribers, be exact on how far off you are right now, how much the prize money would grow..
Just the way I see it. Of course I want esports to succeed, and I really, absolutely love MLG, but id like to see a somewhat different, more transparant approach to contact the public, if youre going to ask for the "kindness" of the SC2 community (a very kind commuinity.. just look at the TotalBiscuit tourneys and the donations...).
On July 30 2011 03:31 ajdoj14 wrote: The sad part is Sundance was always giving him uplifting tweets whenever he would say something about the negative criticisms that he was getting while working on NASL. Then he literally just turns around and makes stupid comments like that.
Wait--was Sundance collaborating with NASL, or were you referring to iNcontrol?
When Incontrol would get negative comments about his NASL stuff, Sundance would always tweet him something, like use the haters as fuel or something along those lines
Ah, I see now. That's chill--always good to have word from somebody has been in the trenches.
Sundance, you have my full support and I'm sure you have the majority of this community's support. Keep doing what you do, because in the end, it will pay off. And eSports will be bigger than ever.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Best post ever?
I'm buying a pass! Go Go MLG!
It would've been if he had given an idea of exactly where we were in relation with the goal he set.
With that in mind, it's perfectly fine business and I find it extremely cool that he would come and post here on TL to defend himself, rather than sending one of his goons (Which, I assume, must be pretty ripped) to post an angry response to iNcontrols.
That being said, in all spirit of capitalism, I don't personally feel the pass is worth it. But if MLG actually achieve their goal of however many passes they would like to have I would be ecstatic.
If it doesn't happen with sc2 this year I'm 100% sure It'll happen with Lol next year. I bought a gold pass and I'm still pumped as hell for the next year of mlg and the rest of this year's mlg.
I like how people can beg for money and then claim it's to support e-sports and it's completely acceptable, but if I walk out onto the street and beg for money, then I'm a worthless bum.
Ya Incontrol's response was rather troll-like and pretty much almost unavoidable. I like the feedback between MLG (and GSL, etc) and the community.
For me MLG was never really about the prizes but about the production and the live atmosphere. I hope they can find a good business model to support themselves in the long run.
On July 30 2011 03:43 turamn wrote: I like how people can beg for money and then claim it's to support e-sports and it's completely acceptable, but if I walk out onto the street and beg for money, then I'm a worthless bum.
Exactly. Promote the product, give accurate information and be transparant. Dont set ultimatums or beg.. I agree with this.
On July 30 2011 03:40 Beyonder wrote: This is probably true, he would probably do the same, or at least something similar, if NASL would have been in trouble. Actually, a lot of people bought the HD pass for the NASL partly because of his, in my opinion, injustified hype, which to many was a let down. But in all fairness, I understand that this feels a bit eery though, and I believe inc would put it in proper perspective. Id prefer it if sundance either (a) tried to just promote his stream regularly, without putting an ultimatum out like that ("Do this or there will be almost no prize money!") or (b) gives more information on the subject. I guess sponsorship only does not cut it, and I can understand it is a troublesome business..
But really, he tells us that the prize money will be raised if he gets X subscribers, while now he's talking about keeping his business alive. Give more clarity on the subject, this feels like I'm being "hustled", as that original message feels as though it would go to the prize money for the players. If you're going to be exact on the amount of subscribers, be exact on how far off you are right now, how much the prize money would grow..
Just the way I see it. Of course I want esports to succeed, and I really, absolutely love MLG, but id like to see a somewhat different approach to contact the public.
Yup, I definitely agree with (b). Honesty can go a long way.
On July 30 2011 03:43 turamn wrote: I like how people can beg for money and then claim it's to support e-sports and it's completely acceptable, but if I walk out onto the street and beg for money, then I'm a worthless bum.
If you go to the streets and keep bugging people to buy your product, you won't be called a worthless bum. You can be annoying, you can be an asshole, but don't compare it to begging in exchange of nothing.
I've bought a silver membership, even though I can't watch as much as I'd like this weekend. It's important to support e-sports, and ten dollars is nothing.
I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG.
MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize.
Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward.
Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors.
As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for.
TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools.
You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
On July 30 2011 03:43 turamn wrote: I like how people can beg for money and then claim it's to support e-sports and it's completely acceptable, but if I walk out onto the street and beg for money, then I'm a worthless bum.
On July 30 2011 03:47 kentarre wrote: I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG.
MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize.
Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward.
Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors.
As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for.
TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools.
You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
It was an expense that had to be done and in a way it saved MLG's ass. I understand where Sundance is coming from. It was business decision that had to be made or else it would be a sinking ship. I'm under the same impression as you about their business and it would really help if we knew approximately how many subscriptions they have made. I don't think it's anywhere near 100,000. In fact, I would lean more towards 35,000 - 40,000. Worst case scenario. I know.
On July 30 2011 03:47 kentarre wrote: I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG.
MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize.
Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward.
Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors.
As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for.
TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools.
You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
Well said!
I really think this is the time to be pushing for such goals, at least with respect to StarCraft 2. I think the vast majority of us that grew up with BroodWar are now over the age of majority, and can now afford to put money back into the hobby that we all love (and be old enough to have a credit card of their own!).
On July 30 2011 03:43 turamn wrote: I like how people can beg for money and then claim it's to support e-sports and it's completely acceptable, but if I walk out onto the street and beg for money, then I'm a worthless bum.
Exactly. Promote the product, give accurate information and be transparant. Dont set ultimatums or beg.. I agree with this.
There's an important lesson here somewhere that Twitter is a shite advertising tool. He probably meant it as an incentive, but twitter, or facebook or even forums here, it's too easy to do a quick rant and hit the post button without giving the receiving audience the necessary context.
I trust he meant it as a hype, but it didn't quite come across that way.
It ended up sounding somewhere in between shady and desperate.
I won't put words in his mouth, but from his post he has big dreams for MLG, but he needs the subscriptions at a certain amount before he can take the risk (needs gauranteed viewership for sponsors, or whatever). He wants e-sports to grow, but can't do it without the necessary viewers. But, I'll let him confirm any of that. This last part are assumptions based upon what information he gave, and my own experience trying to grow a live competition from the ground up.
On July 30 2011 03:54 ShooTouts wrote: agreed Im buying a pass as well
Its understandable that a lot of the people in this thread that are complaining, but a lot are NOT from the US. I don't know why they would complain.
I honestly don't understand what being from the US has anything to do with it. Is it about being able to go to the stages? Viewers are viewers anywhere on the world, they watch the same advertisers and buy the same subscriptions. As a competition, MLG is also pretty much global, it's existence or prize pool definatelly affects players outside the US. Probally more than actual american players, in SC2.
I find it funny that this was blown out of proportions by Incontrol. How is promoting the NASL and HD passes any different then MLG needing subscriptions?
I mean hell... at least MLG can deliver on the hype.
Well yeah... If more people give MLG money they will obviously increase their prize pool. No shit. I don't understand how this is a useful post at all.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
♥ You Sunny. You put that asshole Incontrol in his place. I've had my gold membership since it was announced!
On July 30 2011 04:04 hmunkey wrote: Well yeah... If more people give MLG money they will obviously increase their prize pool. No shit. I don't understand how this is a useful post at all.
BECAUSE ITS TO SUPPORT E SPORTS DONT YOU UNDERSTAND?!>?!?!
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
I've given a lot of shit to Sundance before (that probably wasn't flung hard enough to hit him) but Columbus was a success for the viewers and therefore I'll be buying a membership.
Aim for 100,000, land at about 40,000 it's still a success. But since a player like iNcontroL isn't appreciative sundance, can the fans who are putting the money in see a bigger return on the tournaments since obviously the pros aren't wanting to support that?
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
This here should end any debate by itself, and thanks to Sundance to even take the time to respond.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
After reading this post I just bought the pass and will buy them systematicaly till I quit SC2. 30$ a year isn't pretty huge for me... so if it can support pro-gaming why not! If there is anything else I can do to help just msg
On July 30 2011 03:18 Whole wrote: I would buy a pass if my work schedule wouldn't overlap with MLG. And I don't want to be an asshole to my coworkers and schedule off every 2 months.
You work Saturdays and Sundays too? Also, buying the membership gets you the VOD....
No, I only work at a simple fast food resturant, but my work schedule is completely random. I was working all weekend last MLG, and I need to work the first two days of this one. And I don't like VODs. Being part of the Live Report thread is part of the experience for me. Also, in an event like MLG, it has downtime and such so it makes the LR thread much more fun.
On July 30 2011 04:04 CidO wrote: I've given a lot of shit to Sundance before (that probably wasn't flung hard enough to hit him) but Columbus was a success for the viewers and therefore I'll be buying a membership.
Aim for 100,000, land at about 40,000 it's still a success. But since a player like iNcontroL isn't appreciative sundance, can the fans who are putting the money in see a bigger return on the tournaments since obviously the pros aren't wanting to support that?
I give a lot of respect to the pros for doing what they do. But their word isn't golden. iNcontroL's response to this thread was fairly ignorant in my opinion, as he did not understand the business ramifications and justifications for Sundance's statement and request.
He did NOT give an ultimatum or a threat. In fact he was being much more transparent than any business owner I have seen. He actually revealed the fact that if he wasn't able to hit a certain tier of memberships, he wouldn't be able to support the prize pool he is currently providing. NO business owner of any sort readily reveals that their business is in subject to downsizing.
Yet so many people (it seems) are grabbing the pitchforks and rallying to the cause, stating greed, shady business practices, and everything in between.
The simple fact of the matter is that MLG has put out. It hosted awesome events, it partnered with GSL to bring in awesome players. It brought in great casters, dedicated streams (and now the main stage) to Starcraft 2. Provided a great venue for players (that is NOT stationary and allows for spectators from around the nation to participate), and so forth. WHY are we complaining about a, frankly speaking, small contribution of a person's yearly income to help promote this to become even better? WHY is a PRO PLAYER whom this GREATLY BENEFITS complaining about this?
The statement is obvious, put in money, get more out of it. Its as simple as that.
I think the only problem with the way he did it was saying he could cut the prizes if he didn't reach the goal.
His company needs a certain income to be able to pay for all his expenses plus the prize pools. Depending on the number of subscribers, he has to cut or add money to either production or prize pools.
MLG, specially recently, has showed us they value production much more than prizes, which in my opinion is a good business decision. As long as your prize money is enough to attract the players, which seems to be the case right now, they try to get the best production possible to please the viewers, so they get more viewers/subscribers, so then they can add the extra money to the prize pool. But for this to happen, they need that increase in subscribers.
It's diferent from what NASL did, where they put a lot of money on the prize pool but their production was lacking, compared to MLG. It's understandable, considering their close connection the the players, wanting to make progaming a viable way to support themselfs. But which one would attract more people to actually pay money? Seeing amazing production or knowing the prize pool is big?
Now, MLG has to prove that their model worked, that the added production made a diference on their income, that more people started paying, so they can start paying back to the teams. If they don't reach a reasonable increase even with all the quality increase they gave us recently, what does that show us about their investments? Were they for nothing and they should have kept having no benches and stream problems? If they show that investing money = making more money, it makes it much easier to actually attract more investors.
That's just how I, with no business experience at all, see their situation. I don't completelly agree with everything Sundance said, and it would awesome if they actually release some information so we could actually know what's going on, but I do see some logic behind his statement that's more than just begging for money.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
haha wow, haven't seen incontrol shut down so hard in a while.
So apparently MLG went from a business that relies almost entirely on advertising and other sources of income to a company that's completely dependent on directly selling services to the user. Either they're under pressure from VC to actually turn a profit after not having done so for years or they're on very shakey ground financially for Sundance to directly appeal in the vein of a carnival game stand operator instead of keeping finance details in stockholder reports and fiscal year reports like every other company ever. Or it's a cynical ploy to push impressionable people into supporting a service they wouldn't have otherwise through the idea that they have a communal obligation to support a private company.
Well played Mr Giovanni, or not well played, i'm not entirely sure.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
I bought my gold membership before reading this post, but after reading it I feel even better about doing so. Keep the dream alive Sundance!
If they dont raise the pricepool they only gonna be hurting themself in the long run I expect more and more organisation start runnign tournaments/pro-leagues and the best players will ofc go where the money is. And if Sundance thinks he has to beg money from the viewers then I dont think his business model will last very long.
On July 30 2011 04:16 kentarre wrote: WHY is a PRO PLAYER whom this GREATLY BENEFITS complaining about this?
Uhm, I have not seen a pro player in this topic complaining about anything. Incontroll just stated the obious which was obious. If a company gets more people to pay 30$ to watch starcraft 2, than any other company has got people to watch starcraft for free, its kinda obious they are gona raise the prize pool which is atm lower than most SC2 tourniez.
On July 30 2011 04:22 leakingpear wrote: So apparently MLG went from a business that relies almost entirely on advertising and other sources of income to a company that's completely dependent on directly selling services to the user. Either they're under pressure from VC to actually turn a profit after not having done so for years or they're on very shakey ground financially for Sundance to directly appeal in the vein of a carnival game stand operator instead of keeping finance details in stockholder reports and fiscal year reports like every other company ever. Or it's a cynical ploy to push impressionable people into supporting a service they wouldn't have otherwise through the idea that they have a communal obligation to support a private company.
Well played Mr Giovanni, or not well played, i'm not entirely sure.
A business model based on subs, not a lot of ads, is a much better one. Subs are more loyal and will not creat great ups and downs in revenue, like ads do. Ad revenues are always up for negotiation in "real" business.
To shape MLG into a company with a solid ground for years to come is a well played, nothing else.
the problem is why should people pay on the basis that MLG will expand when that expansion is just a possibility. It is unrealistic for a magazine to say "subscribe for 12 months and if we get enough subscribers we'll double the page count in the last 4 months." that just doesnt make sense. Yes, i agree that these kind of subscriptions would make MLG successful financially and allow for all these expansions, but i also think its wrong how demanding Sundance is sounding. we honestly dont need to jump from 8 competitions to 50 competitions in 1 year. if 15k memberships allows for 10 competitions instead of 8 i think the community would be quite happy.
the way i personally am taking it is that its either get 100k memberships or see mlg sc2 shrink which is quite unreasonable. perhaps im taking this wrong.
On July 30 2011 04:28 Sea_Food wrote: Uhm, I have not seen a pro player in this topic complaining about anything. Incontroll just stated the obious which was obious. If a company gets more people to pay 30$ to watch starcraft 2, than any other company has got people to watch starcraft for free, its kinda obious they are gona raise the prize pool which is atm lower than most SC2 tourniez.
I did say just A pro player and I took his comment as negative. From the responses of other posters and Sundance, I would say that I am not alone in that feeling. The fact that iNcontroL was also a professional player signed to a team is why I decided to state it in that manner.
On July 30 2011 04:16 kentarre wrote: WHY is a PRO PLAYER whom this GREATLY BENEFITS complaining about this?
Uhm, I have not seen a pro player in this topic complaining about anything. Incontroll just stated the obious which was obious. If a company gets more people to pay 30$ to watch starcraft 2, than any other company has got people to watch starcraft for free, its kinda obious they are gona raise the prize pool which is atm lower than most SC2 tourniez.
You're forgetting MLG isn't one game, it has many others. Including Halo, COD, etc.
So he isn't asking the SC2 community, he's asking the entire eSports community. The only reason he responded was to explain to people that running MLG isn't all butterflies and rainbows. Any venture capital start-up is hard to maintain without a SUSTAINABLE source of income/revenue. If you think advertising/sponsors are the most reliable... then I'm just blown away.
It's obvious Sundance is trying to turn his dreamchild into a legitimate business. Not sure why everyone is turning towards hostility. So much being is being blown up for a relatively harmless tweet for hype. =/
Is there any point to subscribing if my internet is only 1500kbps? The $30 isn't a big deal to me but if it's just going to be a donation I'd rather donate it to like dying children or something.
On July 30 2011 04:16 kentarre wrote: WHY is a PRO PLAYER whom this GREATLY BENEFITS complaining about this?
Uhm, I have not seen a pro player in this topic complaining about anything. Incontroll just stated the obious which was obious. If a company gets more people to pay 30$ to watch starcraft 2, than any other company has got people to watch starcraft for free, its kinda obious they are gona raise the prize pool which is atm lower than most SC2 tourniez.
You're forgetting MLG isn't one game, it has many others. Including Halo, COD, etc.
So he isn't asking the SC2 community, he's asking the entire eSports community. The only reason he responded was to explain to people that running MLG isn't all butterflies and rainbows. Any venture capital start-up is hard to maintain without a SUSTAINABLE source of income/revenue. If you think advertising/sponsors are the most reliable... then I'm just blown away.
It's obvious Sundance is trying to turn his dreamchild into a legitimate business. Not sure why everyone is turning towards hostility. So much being is being blown up for a relatively harmless tweet for hype. =/
Actually I have nothing against MLG or the announcement. I only am against people who say that incontrol said anything wrong, which IMO he did not.
Also I never said or ment to say anything about what is best way to get money.
Isn't Incontrol the guy that's always arguing on podcasts that everyone should act professional at all times etc? I'd say comments like that don't live up to his own standards. I think it's evident Sundance tries to make esports work and grow, so if you don't agree with his methods at least discuss it in a grown-up manner.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
It would help if we had some perspective on how close MLG actually is to that goal. If you are nowhere close then it is kind of foolish to make a statement like that, if you are close and want to use this statement as a driving force to reach the goal it was a great idea.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
It would help if we had some perspective on how close MLG actually is to that goal. If you are nowhere close then it is kind of foolish to make a statement like that, if you are close and want to use this statement as a driving force to reach the goal it was a great idea.
Agreed, some kind of meter on the mlg site would be nice!
On July 30 2011 04:55 Noocta wrote: I don,'t like the way he told that. It's not like MLG can't afford increasing the prize pool without us paying more...
Plz tell me by all means how much money they make. I mean, when you say stuff like that you got intel in their finance right.
On July 30 2011 04:55 Noocta wrote: I don,'t like the way he told that. It's not like MLG can't afford increasing the prize pool without us paying more...
Please share this knowledge with us, in more detail.
The co-.founder and CEO has said that the business model is needed and that it takes 100 000 to make it work. What plan do you see for MLG within the next 12 months?
If you say "hey it'd be awesome if we hit 100k subs! Do it for sc2!" there would be no problem and people would do it. But to say "if we get x I will give y" when the x and y don't correllate I have a problem. The prizepool is an exceedingly small part of your budget and that is fine. Asking for 100x the prizepool in subs and promising to raise the prizepool is a feint at being generous or something when really it's like
Also threatening to lower the prizepool in response to a tweet was no good why take that route? Some random dude says 100k is too high so you say you might need ti lower the prizepool?
On July 30 2011 05:08 iNcontroL wrote: Also threatening to lower the prizepool in response to a tweet was no good why take that route? Some random dude says 100k is too high so you say you might need ti lower the prizepool?
Ya I do have to agree with the lowering part... it just sounded bad and like a threat, especially since there has been word that it will be increased in the next year anyway.
I think part of the problem is that the final tournament has such a large prize pool, and people are only looking at each of the individual tournaments and their prize pools.
I'm sorry incontrol, you have access to MLG financial records and know for a fact x and y don't correlate and that the prizepool for ALL the games, not just SC2, is a small part of their budget?
On July 30 2011 05:06 iNcontroL wrote: The most obvious business ploy possible
because you've never tried to get people to buy memberships or anything. and especially not overpriced starcraft 2 guides
@sundance
your initial announcement should more have resembled the post you made in this thread. I'm not going to buy a membership because you state in a tweet that prize money will be increased next season. I want to know exactly how this $3 million you're trying to raise will be put into MLG prize pools and be used to finance new events. I'd like specifics before I go off and buy a $30 membership. And I definitely think you need to be more open about what your plans are if you really think you have a chance of getting 100,000 memberships.
On July 30 2011 04:41 Leafren wrote: Isn't Incontrol the guy that's always arguing on podcasts that everyone should act professional at all times etc? I'd say comments like that don't live up to his own standards. I think it's evident Sundance tries to make esports work and grow, so if you don't agree with his methods at least discuss it in a grown-up manner.
Incontrol is pretty much the most perfect definition of a hypocrite you'll ever find. He makes racist remarks about Indians, makes jokes about rape, and commits numbers of other horrendous PR mistakes and then turns around the next minute and criticizes people for doing the same. Usually when someone brings it up he'll apologize and say that he's different and then be a total asshole the next day anyway.
The NASL, in my opinion, represented one of his biggest hypocrisies; he started with his poorly run showmatch between Idra and Jinro, then said the NASL would be much better. After the NASL was equally bad, he continued to encourage people to buy NASL passes to "support esports" as if a horribly ran league deserved charity from thousands of people simply because they casted videogames.
Incontrol leaves the sinking ship of the NASL after it's obviously failed after the first season and then starts committing more to being a professional gamer (which is ironic because he's an absolutely horrible player that basically relies on cheese to win his games). In a recent match casted by the IPL, he went forge expand with no nexus into 4gate into nexus and stargate simply because he can't win a straight up game and tries to rely on gimmicks to win instead (after all, there's a reason he's probably the most known 4gate/stargate user).
Then of course when he's supposedly now a professional gamer and a real organization that actually produces quality content encourages people to buy passes he turns around and mocks them because apparently the irony is completely lost on him.
It's not surprising that Inc is so religious because he displays the usual hypocrisy and immorality of religious leaders.
Anyway, that was more than enough about incontrol. Moving back to this whole MLG debacle; I would say I'm fine with Sundance's honesty in the numbers he needs but a little disappointed he chose to use twitter to express it, because it made him appear both shady and greedy.
On July 30 2011 04:35 chocopaw wrote: I will not pay for console games and LoL. And not for casters like Husky.
Then don't. Children feel so entitled these days.
that's exactly what he said complaining about the quality of an event is not childish (although i disagree, i find what he listed rather entertaining)
The thing is, he wasn't complaining about the quality of the event. That the Starcraft tournament wasn't enough to pay for, that the other stream that would up 100% of the time and mean he wouldn't need to get even near Husky wasn't enough. He just sounded like he wouldn't support anything that associated with "those kinds of things I don't like." He sounded rather childish, even if it wasn't his intent.
On July 30 2011 04:41 Leafren wrote: Isn't Incontrol the guy that's always arguing on podcasts that everyone should act professional at all times etc? I'd say comments like that don't live up to his own standards. I think it's evident Sundance tries to make esports work and grow, so if you don't agree with his methods at least discuss it in a grown-up manner.
Incontrol is pretty much the most perfect definition of a hypocrite you'll ever find. He makes racist remarks about Indians, makes jokes about rape, and commits numbers of other horrendous PR mistakes and then turns around the next minute and criticizes people for doing the same. Usually when someone brings it up he'll apologize and say that he's different and then be a total asshole the next day anyway.
The NASL, in my opinion, represented one of his biggest hypocrisies; he started with his poorly run showmatch between Idra and Jinro, then said the NASL would be much better. After the NASL was equally bad, he continued to encourage people to buy NASL passes to "support esports" as if a horribly ran league deserved charity from thousands of people simply because they casted videogames.
Incontrol leaves the sinking ship of the NASL after it's obviously failed after the first season and then starts committing more to being a professional gamer (which is ironic because he's an absolutely horrible player that basically relies on cheese to win his games). In a recent match casted by the IPL, he went forge expand with no nexus into 4gate into nexus and stargate simply because he can't win a straight up game and tries to rely on gimmicks to win instead (after all, there's a reason he's probably the most known 4gate/stargate user).
Then of course when he's supposedly now a professional gamer and a real organization that actually produces quality content encourages people to buy passes he turns around and mocks them because apparently the irony is completely lost on him.
It's not surprising that Inc is so religious because he displays the usual hypocrisy and immorality of religious leaders.
Anyway, that was more than enough about incontrol. Moving back to this whole MLG debacle; I would say I'm fine with Sundance's honesty in the numbers he needs but a little disappointed he chose to use twitter to express it, because it made him appear both shady and greedy.
If you say "hey it'd be awesome if we hit 100k subs! Do it for sc2!" there would be no problem and people would do it. But to say "if we get x I will give y" when the x and y don't correllate I have a problem. The prizepool is an exceedingly small part of your budget and that is fine. Asking for 100x the prizepool in subs and promising to raise the prizepool is a feint at being generous or something when really it's like
Of course they correlate. How does bringing in a sustainable cash flow to the business not effect how much of the prize pool can be given at each individual event? There's more incentive for players and those watching to purchase a membership if they have something tangible that they are getting in return other than the product. To put it more simply... to modify your quote "if I have MORE of X I can provide MORE of Y"
It's not like MLG is running in the black at every event, in fact I guarantee it is quite the opposite. Especially after bringing in satellite trucks to pump the production value. Most on-site revenue is going directly into paying for the event venue and production.
anyone else think that MLG would be so awesome if it was viewable on ESPN , or maybe even G4tv?
There are literally thousands/millions of ppl that Will tune into 2 or 3 day events like this on t.v .
I dont think starcraft 2 leagues would be able to make it full time on tv like in korea (concepts such as gsl which are month long commitments and alot of no name players playing), but definately events like MLG would attract alot of viewers on t.v because its short and sweet, especially if their was maybe some way the viewer can use the remote control to pinpoint which game they want to see.
i mean lets be honest, theirs millions and millions of call of duty players/lots of interested sc2 players/LOL players etc, just most of them dont even know tournaments even exist for these games.
im sure if mlg can prove to continue growing (more investors) , 1 day it might actually get aired on tv like how those poker tournaments get aired, ( sc2 is way more entertaining than poker, i dont even understand how ppl even like to watch poker, but yet its showing to be massively successfull) , anybody willing to take the risk to bring sc2 to t.v?
On July 30 2011 05:08 iNcontroL wrote: Also threatening to lower the prizepool in response to a tweet was no good why take that route? Some random dude says 100k is too high so you say you might need ti lower the prizepool?
Well, what you call a bad marketing ploy I would call a moment of attempted honesty. It isn't often that we see the CEO of a company being honest, so we don't really trust it when it happens, but it seems simple enough.
He has a vision of tons of MLG's with increased prize pools, and he needs the capital from the subscriptions to fund it. Why, I don't know--if we take his word, then it's probably because of the growing vision he has of the MLG, and maybe the VC's that invested in his vision won't extend any more loans.
Trying to tweet this stuff is pretty lame, honestly, because though his follow-up dialogue seems to be genuine, it comes off as a bit shady.
Hence the reason I neither subscribe nor pay attention to Twitter. Being the head-honcho he should give more of an official press release if he is going to comment on future goals of his company.
It is certainly sketchy if he's going to make quips about lowering the prize-pool--he should know them's fightin' words in these parts.
No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Quite sad to see Sundance selling out like this, this is the oldest trick in the book when it comes to business and now he's trying to guilt people into paying for it by saying he will lower the prize pool (which is already pathetic as it is) if we don't give him an arbitarily large amount of money.
As incontrol said the prize pool is a very very small percentage of the prizepool, MLG is nothing without SC2 and now sundance is trying to take all our money out of pure greed.
Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
On July 30 2011 05:23 jinixxx123 wrote: anyone else think that MLG would be so awesome if it was viewable on ESPN , or maybe even G4tv?
There are literally thousands/millions of ppl that Will tune into 2 or 3 day events like this on t.v .
I dont think starcraft 2 leagues would be able to make it full time on tv like in korea, but definately events like MLG would attract alot of viewers, especially if their was maybe some way the view can use the remote control to pinpoint which game they want to see.
i mean lets be honest, theirs millions and millions of call of duty players/lots of interested sc2 players/LOL players etc, just most of them dont even know tournaments even exist for these games.
im sure if mlg can prove to continue growing (more investors) , 1 day it might actually get aired on tv like how those poker tournaments get aired, ( sc2 is way more entertaining than poker, i dont even understand how ppl even like to watch poker, but yet its showing to be massively successfull) , anybody willing to take the risk to bring sc2 to t.v?
They used to be on espn3, granted it is still online. They also were on USA, but it has to be pretty much just a quick summary of games. The time slot that would be needed for a tv program is too much. Plus it would most likely have to be a cable subscription type channel, which wouldn't be accessible by everyone, and possibly not streamed worldwide. It would be cool in theory, but in actuality streaming on the internet is the best way for events like this.
So...we all are in agreement that the prize pools for Starcraft 2 are pathetically small at the moment though...right? We are all on the same page there...I'm assuming.
I'm curious about the whole 24 events a year thing. Seems hard to understand you could run that many events AND raise the prize pool. I'd hope for the same number of events, perhaps a few more and just raise the prizes significantly. All this is of course assuming you get what you are looking for. The idea that you would lower the prize pools if you only got 98k subs is a little distasteful though.
On July 30 2011 04:41 Leafren wrote: Isn't Incontrol the guy that's always arguing on podcasts that everyone should act professional at all times etc? I'd say comments like that don't live up to his own standards. I think it's evident Sundance tries to make esports work and grow, so if you don't agree with his methods at least discuss it in a grown-up manner.
Incontrol is pretty much the most perfect definition of a hypocrite you'll ever find. He makes racist remarks about Indians, makes jokes about rape, and commits numbers of other horrendous PR mistakes and then turns around the next minute and criticizes people for doing the same. Usually when someone brings it up he'll apologize and say that he's different and then be a total asshole the next day anyway.
The NASL, in my opinion, represented one of his biggest hypocrisies; he started with his poorly run showmatch between Idra and Jinro, then said the NASL would be much better. After the NASL was equally bad, he continued to encourage people to buy NASL passes to "support esports" as if a horribly ran league deserved charity from thousands of people simply because they casted videogames.
Incontrol leaves the sinking ship of the NASL after it's obviously failed after the first season and then starts committing more to being a professional gamer (which is ironic because he's an absolutely horrible player that basically relies on cheese to win his games). In a recent match casted by the IPL, he went forge expand with no nexus into 4gate into nexus and stargate simply because he can't win a straight up game and tries to rely on gimmicks to win instead (after all, there's a reason he's probably the most known 4gate/stargate user).
Then of course when he's supposedly now a professional gamer and a real organization that actually produces quality content encourages people to buy passes he turns around and mocks them because apparently the irony is completely lost on him.
It's not surprising that Inc is so religious because he displays the usual hypocrisy and immorality of religious leaders.
Anyway, that was more than enough about incontrol. Moving back to this whole MLG debacle; I would say I'm fine with Sundance's honesty in the numbers he needs but a little disappointed he chose to use twitter to express it, because it made him appear both shady and greedy.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is. So that rules out reinvesting into that. That leaves two avenues, both of which Sundance pointed out.
1. Increasing the prize pool for each individual event and for each game across the board. 2. Increasing the number of events held and innovating by including new leagues and games into the circuit.
Sundance has mentioned both of these. While Twitter may not have been the best choice, I fail to see your criticism on this.
I mean, how does this differ from you pushing NASL HD passes and hyping it up? If you're going to point out that you didn't say if you buy them we'll have a bigger prize pool next season. Then I'll just use your advice. When you have money invest it into this that need improvement. Like a new soundperson and overall production value.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Where do you get the 30 million? It's 300.000 from premium stream venue if everyone bought Gold Membership - Do remember, that you can sign up, be a member of MLG as well without even paying a dime right?
Let's not make MLG more of the bad guy than they are
So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
On July 30 2011 05:27 iNcontroL wrote: Typing from phone btw forgive terribad typing lol
Oh I thought you were drunk. On a serious note why do say do it for star 2 when there are other games that MLG have events for? Just because Star 2 made the main stage once doesn't mean this is the entire audience for MLG.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is..
Haha, yeah about that...
Dreamhack has blown MLG out of the water every time, MLG are just lucky they are an American company so everyone wants to hype it up :p production is one of the weakest parts of MLG, it's been like this at every single one for years -.-
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is. So that rules out reinvesting into that. That leaves two avenues, both of which Sundance pointed out.
1. Increasing the prize pool for each individual event and for each game across the board. 2. Increasing the number of events held and innovating by including new leagues and games into the circuit.
Sundance has mentioned both of these. While Twitter may not have been the best choice, I fail to see your criticism on this.
I mean, how does this differ from you pushing NASL HD passes and hyping it up? If you're going to point out that you didn't say if you buy them we'll have a bigger prize pool next season. Then I'll just use your advice. When you have money invest it into this that need improvement. Like a new soundperson and overall production value.
I think you missed the other twitter message where Sundance threatened to decrease the prize pool if they don't reach their target.
In either case, many of us are interested in knowing the approx. subscriber base and would appreciate some transparency.
Twitter and Facebook status/walls are terrible ways of making a point and sharing such things. Wording is everything.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
Really dude?? You are started all this drama and shit over the way he worded something. And of course you're gonna say "I didn't start anything, It was Sundance (the man who is busting his ass 100 times more than you are to help all of esports grow) who started the drama" Typical EG response
On July 30 2011 05:27 iNcontroL wrote: Typing from phone btw forgive terribad typing lol
I understand your position on the whole sundance using it as a business ploy, but in the end isn't that what he is supposed to do. That quote alone may have generated 1,000 subscriptions (random number) and yes, if he doesn't hit 100,000 it doesn't mean he can't make an increase; however, it can motivate people to hit his goal. He IS a businessman. I just thought it was kinda immature to say that comment on here (sure it doesn't matter to you). I mean, it is his job to do whatever he can to increase his business, he is the CEO of the company. You should understand why he is trying to generate interest, you would do it while you were working at NASL. How would you feel if someone whos has a big voice in the community was calling you out for comments that you made. Like if day9 was like o yeah you keep saying that NASL production will get better, but every single week there is mad lag, and even the VODs have lag. Your voice/opinion as you have stated in the past actually weighs down on peoples thoughts. I could be wrong but it seems like he has never been a dick to you, why be a dick to him.
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Where do you get the 30 million? It's 300.000 from premium stream venue if everyone bought Gold Membership - Do remember, that you can sign up, be a member of MLG as well without even paying a dime right?
Let's not make MLG more of the bad guy than they are
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Well, hell yeah if they grossed 30 mil/year from these things, $10k increase in prize pool is pretty niggardly.
Sundance never said what he'd increase it to, only that it'd be significant... so, I guess we'd have to wait until the viewers hit his marks before we can call shenanigans.
I guess you can be cynical about it, or think positively. I feel like so many people want e-sports in the west be like SK BroodWar that we're willing to think positively about the growth here.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Where do you get the 30 million? It's 300.000 from premium stream venue if everyone bought Gold Membership - Do remember, that you can sign up, be a member of MLG as well without even paying a dime right?
Let's not make MLG more of the bad guy than they are
actually 30$ x 100,000 is 3million.
but incontrol has a point,
I honestly think the 100k subscribers is more about beign able to sell advertising and obtain sponsors than anything -
3million is a good chunk of money, but the serious money can come from major endorsements or sponsors. Being able to show a potential sponsor that, not only did u sell...( i dont know. 2500? spectator passes for the event) you also got 100,000 people to pay 30$ a year for your services, is a great step forward in obtaining their business.
On July 30 2011 05:36 Beyonder wrote: Haha, dont overanalyze this too much, its not needed. Silly tweet, sarcastic deserved comment. That was it :D Noone is making drama but you guys ^_^
MLG doesn't start for... 3.5 hours according to the clock, what else do we have to do? :p
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
I, for one, appreciate your crystal clear explanation of MLG's business. Continue to provide your vast insight please.
Folks in this thread should pay attention to this man. It's like we have a window into MLG's inner workings. I mean...just because he was a part of one season of an entirely different league doesn't mean he isn't completely correct in his assumptions.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is. So that rules out reinvesting into that. That leaves two avenues, both of which Sundance pointed out.
1. Increasing the prize pool for each individual event and for each game across the board. 2. Increasing the number of events held and innovating by including new leagues and games into the circuit.
Sundance has mentioned both of these. While Twitter may not have been the best choice, I fail to see your criticism on this.
I mean, how does this differ from you pushing NASL HD passes and hyping it up? If you're going to point out that you didn't say if you buy them we'll have a bigger prize pool next season. Then I'll just use your advice. When you have money invest it into this that need improvement. Like a new soundperson and overall production value.
I think you missed the other twitter message where Sundance threatened to decrease the prize pool if they don't reach their target.
In either case, many of us are interested in knowing the approx. subscriber base and would appreciate some transparency.
Twitter and Facebook status/walls are terrible ways of making a point and sharing such things. Wording is everything.
I take the second tweet one of two ways:
1. It was a sarcastic remark to the tweets he recieved. 2. As the CEO he recognizes that without additional income he may have to slash prize pools to keep all the games on the circuit.
Unfortunately social media such as Facebook and Twitter leave little room for interpretation and leaves you unable to identiify the nuances of tones.
To Malaris* - Matter of opinion here. I watched both and enjoyed watching MLG by far, Columbus that is. But it's my opinion and I concede that fantastic may have been an inaccurate choice of words.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is. So that rules out reinvesting into that. That leaves two avenues, both of which Sundance pointed out.
1. Increasing the prize pool for each individual event and for each game across the board. 2. Increasing the number of events held and innovating by including new leagues and games into the circuit.
Sundance has mentioned both of these. While Twitter may not have been the best choice, I fail to see your criticism on this.
I mean, how does this differ from you pushing NASL HD passes and hyping it up? If you're going to point out that you didn't say if you buy them we'll have a bigger prize pool next season. Then I'll just use your advice. When you have money invest it into this that need improvement. Like a new soundperson and overall production value.
I think you missed the other twitter message where Sundance threatened to decrease the prize pool if they don't reach their target.
In either case, many of us are interested in knowing the approx. subscriber base and would appreciate some transparency.
Twitter and Facebook status/walls are terrible ways of making a point and sharing such things. Wording is everything.
I think that what sundance was trying to say is that if 100,000 memberships is too lofty of a goal then then MLG as a business will eventually end up failing anyways. And what is the first thing you would cut spending-wise as a business in order to maintain the events quality? The prize pool
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is. So that rules out reinvesting into that. That leaves two avenues, both of which Sundance pointed out.
1. Increasing the prize pool for each individual event and for each game across the board. 2. Increasing the number of events held and innovating by including new leagues and games into the circuit.
Sundance has mentioned both of these. While Twitter may not have been the best choice, I fail to see your criticism on this.
I mean, how does this differ from you pushing NASL HD passes and hyping it up? If you're going to point out that you didn't say if you buy them we'll have a bigger prize pool next season. Then I'll just use your advice. When you have money invest it into this that need improvement. Like a new soundperson and overall production value.
I think you missed the other twitter message where Sundance threatened to decrease the prize pool if they don't reach their target.
In either case, many of us are interested in knowing the approx. subscriber base and would appreciate some transparency.
Twitter and Facebook status/walls are terrible ways of making a point and sharing such things. Wording is everything.
I think that what sundance was trying to say is that if 100,000 memberships is too lofty of a goal then then MLG as a business will eventually end up failing anyways. And what is the first thing you would cut spending-wise as a business in order to maintain the events quality? The prize pool
If that was actually ever a serious consideration, they'd be better off just closing the doors. The prize pools are already embarrassing for a tournament of this magnitude.
So after reading Sundance's inspiring plea for subscriptions I went straightaway to the mlg website and tried to sign up for a gold membership, as I have a full-time job and a burning desire to support e-sports.
As I clicked the "submit" button on my web browser I felt a little shiver in my spine, like I was nourishing an injured bird back to health that would one day spread its wings and fly strong and free.
Then the website told me that I can't buy a subscription because I live in Iowa.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is..
Haha, yeah about that...
Dreamhack has blown MLG out of the water every time, MLG are just lucky they are an American company so everyone wants to hype it up :p production is one of the weakest parts of MLG, it's been like this at every single one for years -.-
At first I was going to respond to this until I read some of your posts in other threads, you basically take every chance you get to criticize anything related to north america.
edit: to be fair though your post is half true, but its a matter of opinion.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is. So that rules out reinvesting into that. That leaves two avenues, both of which Sundance pointed out.
1. Increasing the prize pool for each individual event and for each game across the board. 2. Increasing the number of events held and innovating by including new leagues and games into the circuit.
Sundance has mentioned both of these. While Twitter may not have been the best choice, I fail to see your criticism on this.
I mean, how does this differ from you pushing NASL HD passes and hyping it up? If you're going to point out that you didn't say if you buy them we'll have a bigger prize pool next season. Then I'll just use your advice. When you have money invest it into this that need improvement. Like a new soundperson and overall production value.
I think you missed the other twitter message where Sundance threatened to decrease the prize pool if they don't reach their target.
In either case, many of us are interested in knowing the approx. subscriber base and would appreciate some transparency.
Twitter and Facebook status/walls are terrible ways of making a point and sharing such things. Wording is everything.
I think that what sundance was trying to say is that if 100,000 memberships is too lofty of a goal then then MLG as a business will eventually end up failing anyways. And what is the first thing you would cut spending-wise as a business in order to maintain the events quality? The prize pool
If that was actually ever a serious consideration, they'd be better off just closing the doors. The prize pools are already embarrassing for a tournament of this magnitude.
You do realize that all of the tournaments leading up to providence grand finals are basically satellite qualifers, right? The prize pool for providence is actually quite significant when you consider its split accross 3 games equally.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is. So that rules out reinvesting into that. That leaves two avenues, both of which Sundance pointed out.
1. Increasing the prize pool for each individual event and for each game across the board. 2. Increasing the number of events held and innovating by including new leagues and games into the circuit.
Sundance has mentioned both of these. While Twitter may not have been the best choice, I fail to see your criticism on this.
I mean, how does this differ from you pushing NASL HD passes and hyping it up? If you're going to point out that you didn't say if you buy them we'll have a bigger prize pool next season. Then I'll just use your advice. When you have money invest it into this that need improvement. Like a new soundperson and overall production value.
I think you missed the other twitter message where Sundance threatened to decrease the prize pool if they don't reach their target.
In either case, many of us are interested in knowing the approx. subscriber base and would appreciate some transparency.
Twitter and Facebook status/walls are terrible ways of making a point and sharing such things. Wording is everything.
I think that what sundance was trying to say is that if 100,000 memberships is too lofty of a goal then then MLG as a business will eventually end up failing anyways. And what is the first thing you would cut spending-wise as a business in order to maintain the events quality? The prize pool
We can sit here all day and argue intention. My point still stands. Sometimes it best to say nothing at all and put your best foot forward. <3 cliches.-.-
Guess what happens when you cut the prize pool? less incentive for the top teams to send their players out and less people would compete. ;/
There are other ways to cut expenses. To cut the prize pool, which is already pretty small for the SC2 side already isn't good for business either.
On July 30 2011 05:36 Beyonder wrote: Haha, dont overanalyze this too much, its not needed. Silly tweet, sarcastic deserved comment. That was it :D Noone is making drama but you guys ^_^
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is. So that rules out reinvesting into that. That leaves two avenues, both of which Sundance pointed out.
1. Increasing the prize pool for each individual event and for each game across the board. 2. Increasing the number of events held and innovating by including new leagues and games into the circuit.
Sundance has mentioned both of these. While Twitter may not have been the best choice, I fail to see your criticism on this.
I mean, how does this differ from you pushing NASL HD passes and hyping it up? If you're going to point out that you didn't say if you buy them we'll have a bigger prize pool next season. Then I'll just use your advice. When you have money invest it into this that need improvement. Like a new soundperson and overall production value.
I think you missed the other twitter message where Sundance threatened to decrease the prize pool if they don't reach their target.
In either case, many of us are interested in knowing the approx. subscriber base and would appreciate some transparency.
Twitter and Facebook status/walls are terrible ways of making a point and sharing such things. Wording is everything.
I think that what sundance was trying to say is that if 100,000 memberships is too lofty of a goal then then MLG as a business will eventually end up failing anyways. And what is the first thing you would cut spending-wise as a business in order to maintain the events quality? The prize pool
If that was actually ever a serious consideration, they'd be better off just closing the doors. The prize pools are already embarrassing for a tournament of this magnitude.
You do realize that all of the tournaments leading up to providence grand finals are basically satellite qualifers, right? The prize pool for providence is actually quite significant when you consider its split accross 3 games equally.
I'm well aware of the grand finals. That's a whole other issue entirely though. Each of these tournaments are major events and the winners of these 3 days marathons deserve a righteous reward. Also, the fact that Starcraft is splitting the prize pools with games that bring in a fraction of the viewership is not a good argument.
Just wanted to comment about Incontrol as a person, not a player and how much I hate people like him- seems overly polite and good-mannered at first and just after a little while you realize how big of a hypocrite he is. Just a bitter, bitter, arrogant, attention-seeking hater. Don't feed the troll!
That is not how you make your point Vadrigar. See you in a few days.
Why do so many people open with that exact opening and not know how it works yet?
lmao
With that said, I would absolutely love it if TL enforces a new commandment. If you are going to post something, you better have read the whole thread before committing to it.
Just think about how many temp bans people would get!
Subscriptions (i.e. regular revenue) help a company like MLG gauge sustainability and then act accordingly - larger prize pools, larger events, etc. This isn't rocket science, it's good business.
The fact that the OP was followed by page after page of people complaining about MLG's desire to increase their revenue before increasing their expenditures is pretty ludicrous. Maybe it's because we're internet dwellers and gamers and in general are used to getting a lot out of everything without ever shedding real dollars, but damn do we ever act entitled.
That said, I went and bought a membership today. MLG puts on a hell of a show and is well worth the tiny cost.
I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG.
MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize.
Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward.
Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors.
As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for.
TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools.
You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
I didn't get to your post before I got angry at the hating and posted my useless reply. I wanted to quote you were because you explained it much better and I enjoyed your post. When a person or people are trying to grow a business, it will require external investment. External investment will require steady and reliable revenue streams. In the case of something like an online gaming event, subscriptions fit the mold.
I mean, I agree that the prize pool at MLG is relatively small compared to other big events - that much is obvious. But it's also obvious that MLG puts an onus on putting on a slick, professional, well produced show. Compare it to something like NASL which was shoddy at best and redeemed only by having killer games in the finals (plus I always enjoy InControL) - but it had bigger prizes. The truth is that something like MLG doesn't need big money to draw in the talent. The event is so big and the stage is so large that anyone who fancies themselves a competitor wants to show up and win on the biggest stage. But they aren't evil. If they generate more revenue, they'll allot more to the prize pool.
As an aside, producing a gaming event with the level of quality and professional production of a major sports broadcast is arguable more important to growing the pro-gaming audience and building respectability in the eyes of the mainstream than tossing a few extra grand to the guys who win. It's also far more difficult. I have no problem appreciating the approach MLG has chosen to take.
On July 30 2011 06:00 Flaccid wrote: Subscriptions (i.e. regular revenue) help a company like MLG gauge sustainability and then act accordingly - larger prize pools, larger events, etc. This isn't rocket science, it's good business.
The fact that the OP was followed by page after page of people complaining about MLG's desire to increase their revenue before increasing their expenditures is pretty ludicrous. Maybe it's because we're internet dwellers and gamers and in general are used to getting a lot out of everything without ever shedding real dollars, but damn do we ever act entitled.
That said, I went and bought a membership today. MLG puts on a hell of a show and is well worth the tiny cost.
On July 30 2011 05:57 Vadrigar wrote: I'll probably get banned but just wanted to say how much I hate people like Incontrol- seems overly polite and good-mannered at first and just after a little while you realize how big of a hypocrite he is. Just a bitter, bitter, arrogant, attention-seeking hater. Don't feed the troll!
Why would you post something totally unrelated to the topic about one post made in the beginning of a 21 page thread, and even ASKING for the ban? Geez.
It's not like incontrol is wrong either; if they get money they raise the prize money obviously.
On July 30 2011 05:57 Vadrigar wrote: I'll probably get banned but just wanted to say how much I hate people like Incontrol- seems overly polite and good-mannered at first and just after a little while you realize how big of a hypocrite he is. Just a bitter, bitter, arrogant, attention-seeking hater. Don't feed the troll!
Why would you post something totally unrelated to the topic about one post made in the beginning of a 21 page thread, and even ASKING for the ban? Geez.
It's not like incontrol is wrong either; if they get money they raise the prize money obviously.
Thats not what incontrol is saying, in fact he is saying that raising that money has nothing to do with the prize pools and he is calling sundance a liar and shady for saying that the 2 are "correlated"
On July 30 2011 05:57 Vadrigar wrote: I'll probably get banned but just wanted to say how much I hate people like Incontrol- seems overly polite and good-mannered at first and just after a little while you realize how big of a hypocrite he is. Just a bitter, bitter, arrogant, attention-seeking hater. Don't feed the troll!
Why would you post something totally unrelated to the topic about one post made in the beginning of a 21 page thread, and even ASKING for the ban? Geez.
It's not like incontrol is wrong either; if they get money they raise the prize money obviously.
My response is to Sundance's response (which is in OP's post) to Incontrol's response. How is that unrelated?
iNcontroL should be placed in the open bracked for this. nah just kidding, you are great. But I dont understand why its so objectionable that someone wants to make a living out of esports. I mean, can we expect everyone to do tourneys and leagues as voluntary community work, without any profit? If so, you can't really complain about bad production or other standards. Isnt esport trying to be a semi serious sport, with sponsors, public recognition and the lot, not just a kids game?
On July 29 2011 14:40 MisterFred wrote: Ok, so we have a yearly budget of $50 million dollars a year, give or take $15 million. So for prize pools to be 1% of their total budget, they'd need to be giving out $500,000 in total prize pool.
Grand total prize pool for SC2 in 2011: $170,000 dollars. So if prize pools for the other games combined are greater than $330,000 dollars (and they may well be, MLG pays them way more per viewer than SC2), then MLG pays somewhere between 1-2% of their budget to prize pool.
If total prize pools for other games combined are greater than $330,000 dollars, then MLG probably is paying less than 1% of their budget as prize pool.
Suck on math, bitches.
For the record, I hope MLG does well & raises their prize pools. And I plan to enjoy watching their tournament. Hell Sundance, worry not, I'll buy a few Dr. Peppers I wouldn't have. But I'm not going to pretend SC2 pros aren't getting a raw deal for the second year in a row. Edit: nor should the community demand companies give a certain % of their budget or profit to prize pools. But I still refuse to call $5,000 for first prize a major tournament. The championship will be a major tournament. This is a sponsor fest or minor circuit event. /Edit
But if you want to support SC2 e-sports on a budget, watch the standard MLG stream and buy a computer peripheral from a sponsor of your favorite team. Sponsorships are why your favorite players show up to Anaheim.
not sure where you are getting you numbers from
but if you look at the prize pools for just sc2, the national event alone has
120,000 plus 14000x5 (the prize pool for an event, times the amount of events not counting nationals) 70000,
120000 + 70000 = 190000,
This is just for sc2 alone, counting the rest of the numbers (each game at all events), it equals 750000 (Not counting Halo reach nationals, I could not find numbers for it and didnt want to guess)
The 750000, is all games at every event, plus the final national prize pool for the games. ( as stated not counting halo reachs, National numbers)
Plus MLG gives each "PRO" 400 dollars per event.
But just say we give Halo Reaches National numbers, sc2s (120000)
We are looking at minimum 870000 in prize money.(+400 per pro, per event)
all this means buy the pass, they need more money to raise prize pools =)
I wonder how much in the way of memberships the other games respectively kick in.
It's already a pretty competitive marketplace for my StarCraft Dollar.
$10 for the GSL -Tournament with the highest caliber play and best players if a bit Terran heavy.
$25 -3 months of the GSTL - See some stars who have not yet broken through in the GSL. Support your "club" team. (Never bought this so my sales pitch might not be that great)
NASL -3 months of 5 games a day 4(?) days a week with an adequate guest commentators from time to time.
MLG 3 days every few months of some of the best StarCraft -$15 a tournament I think guessing 2 tournes during the 3 month period? Bonus is that it attracts Top end Euros and more than few watchable Terrans. Most koreans of any major offlineforeign tourny.
DreamHack -Free largest tourne in Europe with the top NA players fewer koreans
IEM -$10 for pass? Major Euro tournament
Homestory - Whatever you feel guilty enough to pay. - Excellent tournament with possibly the best commentary. Also not the norm and not expected to be the norm.
That's not chump change when I used to go to youtube for BW. To be fair ofc, the production and quality is much higher and it helps grow the scene. At the same time, there are other forms of entertainment I want to consume and only so much utility to be gained from purchasing the marginal SC tournament. And to put everything into context, I am a diehard manchester united fan, but I've spent more on StarCraft than I have spent on any pay per view in total.
And for all the people that are saying $5000 is a low prize, thats all on Blizzard, that is limit they place on all SC2 tourneys unless the tournament organizers go thru a ton of hoops for each time they want to award more than 5g.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Don't worry.
Im sure that like every other time he does something stupid, he will say he regrets saying/doing that.
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
My math might be wrong but I don't think 100,000 subscribtion equals 30 million.
You hate on TotalBiscuit, now Sundance. Maybe you should protest your beliefs and not participate in any MLG. I'm sure Jesus would approve of Sundance and eSports.
Well, MLG is hosting great events and delivering high quality content for it. From a viewers perspective they are doing a great job.
So why not, support a company with 30 bucks, that promots e-sports with very professional 3 day events, which may draw additional sponsors into eSports and which might in the end increase "Inc's much needed" prizepool money anyway.
In comparison, I dumped 25 dollars into NASL and got an embarassing facepalm finals event. I don't think any company, that watched that trainwreck is considering investing a dollar into eSports.
On July 30 2011 06:26 Slider954 wrote: And for all the people that are saying $5000 is a low prize, thats all on Blizzard, that is limit they place on all SC2 tourneys unless the tournament organizers go thru a ton of hoops for each time they want to award more than 5g.
5k is only for first place. -_- They already have to deal with Blizzard. MLG is a poor example of what you are trying to argue, lol. I do agree that it is bullocks that Blizzard takes a huge cut into the proceeds when it goes over that though.
On July 30 2011 05:57 Vadrigar wrote: I'll probably get banned but just wanted to say how much I hate people like Incontrol- seems overly polite and good-mannered at first and just after a little while you realize how big of a hypocrite he is. Just a bitter, bitter, arrogant, attention-seeking hater. Don't feed the troll!
Why would you post something totally unrelated to the topic about one post made in the beginning of a 21 page thread, and even ASKING for the ban? Geez.
It's not like incontrol is wrong either; if they get money they raise the prize money obviously.
My response is to Sundance's response (which is in OP's post) to Incontrol's response. How is that unrelated?
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is. So that rules out reinvesting into that. That leaves two avenues, both of which Sundance pointed out.
1. Increasing the prize pool for each individual event and for each game across the board. 2. Increasing the number of events held and innovating by including new leagues and games into the circuit.
Sundance has mentioned both of these. While Twitter may not have been the best choice, I fail to see your criticism on this.
I mean, how does this differ from you pushing NASL HD passes and hyping it up? If you're going to point out that you didn't say if you buy them we'll have a bigger prize pool next season. Then I'll just use your advice. When you have money invest it into this that need improvement. Like a new soundperson and overall production value.
I think you missed the other twitter message where Sundance threatened to decrease the prize pool if they don't reach their target.
In either case, many of us are interested in knowing the approx. subscriber base and would appreciate some transparency.
Twitter and Facebook status/walls are terrible ways of making a point and sharing such things. Wording is everything.
To Malaris* - Matter of opinion here. I watched both and enjoyed watching MLG by far, Columbus that is. But it's my opinion and I concede that fantastic may have been an inaccurate choice of words.
except it's not a matter of opinion, Dreamhack's production was systematically superior to MLGs.. whether you liked MLG better or not is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
On July 30 2011 06:41 sekalf wrote: Incontrol you are making me a bit sad. I used to be such a huge fan, but these strange comments you are making lately is really making me confused.
Why the hate?
This is who incontrol really is mate lol, he has been like this since BW. It can only be a good thing that he shows his true colours so people know how to judge him.
On July 30 2011 06:41 sekalf wrote: Incontrol you are making me a bit sad. I used to be such a huge fan, but these strange comments you are making lately is really making me confused.
Why the hate?
Incontrol has always been like that; he's pretty much the only "professional" gamer that I actually hate as a person.
Yes it is a matter of opinion, you cant decide for somebody if they feel something is better than something else. That's THEIR opinion. You have no empirical data to back up your claim that DH's "production was systematically superior to MLGs". Just cause you or other people say it was doesn't make it fact.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
I would suspect that columbus's success was slightly (at least) limited by the technical difficulties of Dallas'. What do you expect to see in anaheim?
On July 30 2011 06:44 Slider954 wrote: Yes it is a matter of opinion, you cant decide for somebody if they feel something is better than something else. That's THEIR opinion. You have no empirical data to back up your claim that DH's "production was systematically superior to MLGs". Just cause you or other people say it was doesn't make it fact.
better sound, better quality, player interviews post-game, better shots of the players in the booths, better coverage, a lot less downtime and a lot less advertisements too.
how is that NOT superior? what does MLG do better? The difference between my points and yours are mine are backed up by empirical evidence and you just give your opinion
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
I think when you posted this on twitter:
@Hot_Bid @LiquidRet pretty classy when an organizer of TSL3 openly criticizes another league! Grow up Ken. Wed Jun 22 21:10:02 +0000 2011
That's why people are taking offense to what you are doing. You can't go criticizing other people and then complain when others do it.
When I was first introduced to starcraft, I thought Incontrol was a cool guy with good things to say. It slowly declined and is still declining. Why is this?
Why is it even so important that they in increase the prize pool? Its already enough to attract the best players and the world.
Players should not relay to much prize money imo, but just focus on getting far in events or help their team get far since in the end it would most likely give them better team contracts which is more reliable income.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
I think when you posted this on twitter:
@Hot_Bid @LiquidRet pretty classy when an organizer of TSL3 openly criticizes another league! Grow up Ken. Wed Jun 22 21:10:02 +0000 2011
That's why people are taking offense to what you are doing. You can't go criticizing other people and then complain when others do it.
Yet another perfect of example of Incontrol doing one thing and then criticizing someone else for said thing.
On July 30 2011 06:41 sekalf wrote: Incontrol you are making me a bit sad. I used to be such a huge fan, but these strange comments you are making lately is really making me confused.
Why the hate?
Incontrol has always been like that; he's pretty much the only "professional" gamer that I actually hate as a person.
Dude.. You are so quick to just throw out the term "hate" - Do you even realize what it means? What it entails to actually 'hate' a person? You're talking about an active member of our community! Don't fucking say you 'hate' someone here, grow the fuck up
On July 30 2011 06:57 TaKemE wrote: Why is it even so important that they in increase the prize pool? Its already enough to attract the best players and the world.
Players should not relay to much prize money imo, but just focus on getting far in events or help their team get far since in the end it would most likely give them better team contracts which is more reliable income.
In most cases, a lot of them don't have the option man. The teams are gunning for the prize money. Every manager would tell you the same thing and at the end of the day, it's very small. Just enough to cover the airfare, accommodations and food in most cases.
SUPPORT ESPORTS DONT BE CHEAP If you have money to pay for an internetbill you have money to pay $10-$30(Ideally gold pass) A YEAR We gamers may not be rich But we can all pitch in for a better tomorrow!
Um what empirical evidence? You just saying that it was better is your empirical evidence? Again, just because you SAY its better doesn't make it fact. It makes it YOUR opinion and you are entitled to it, just as other people are entitled to say MLG's production is better. And again, that doesn't make it fact. Anyways, I'm not gonna keep this argument going, its off topic to begin with anyways.
To elaborate on my tweet regarding needing to lower prize money if we can't sell 100,000 subs - we run 3 games.
Would all 3 need to be dropped? - can't say as of yet. Would the cuts be deep? Also don't know yet.
What I do know is that between the current titles we run and some others that we area looking at the time to move from a niche business to something real is now.
I'm sure that Geoff means well and could possibly even do a better job running MLG than I do but guess what? He's not in charge over here - I am. I will continue to do what I think needs to be done to create a business that lives on long after I have left.
Again - I'm not going to apologize for being honest with you. You and other fans like you hold the future of competitive gaming (eSports) in your grasp. Both here and abroad.
I'm doing what I can. Hopefully you all are as well. Support your passion - even if MLG isn't a part of your vision for what competitive gaming should be than support the organizations that are.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
I think when you posted this on twitter:
@Hot_Bid @LiquidRet pretty classy when an organizer of TSL3 openly criticizes another league! Grow up Ken. Wed Jun 22 21:10:02 +0000 2011
That's why people are taking offense to what you are doing. You can't go criticizing other people and then complain when others do it.
I remember those tweets and is another example of incontrol's hypocrisy. Of course now watch him say he's no longer part of NASL so it doesn't apply to him anymore.
I dont think iNcontrol meant to come off as totally rude- he's just saying that obviously MLG can afford to raise the prize pool if they get more subscription money - peace guys
On July 30 2011 07:03 SundanceMLG wrote: To elaborate on my tweet regarding needing to lower prize money if we can't sell 100,000 subs - we run 3 games.
Would all 3 need to be dropped? - can't say as of yet. Would the cuts be deep? Also don't know yet.
What I do know is that between the current titles we run and some others that we area looking at the time to move from a niche business to something real is now.
I'm sure that Geoff means well and could possibly even do a better job running MLG than I do but guess what? He's not in charge over here - I am. I will continue to do what I think needs to be done to create a business that lives on long after I have left.
Again - I'm not going to apologize for being honest with you. You and other fans like you hold the future of competitive gaming (eSports) in your grasp. Both here and abroad.
I'm doing what I can. Hopefully you all are as well. Support your passion - even if MLG isn't a part of your vision for what competitive gaming should be than support the organizations that are.
On July 30 2011 07:03 Slider954 wrote: Um what empirical evidence? You just saying that it was better is your empirical evidence? Again, just because you SAY its better doesn't make it fact. It makes it YOUR opinion and you are entitled to it, just as other people are entitled to say MLG's production is better. And again, that doesn't make it fact. Anyways, I'm not gonna keep this argument going, its off topic to begin with anyways.
I just listed it, reading comprehension would help out there wouldn't it pal? not sure how you messed that one up though. The whole argument to begin with was "MLG production is amazing". I said how it wasn't, especially not compared to their main competitor DH, then you come in here saying that's an opinion even though I systematically proved that not to be the case? What is so difficult to comprehend about that champ?
it's obvious you are an MLG fanboy or employee since your only posts are in this thread and you're only here to do PR for MLG, congrats.
On July 30 2011 07:03 SundanceMLG wrote: To elaborate on my tweet regarding needing to lower prize money if we can't sell 100,000 subs - we run 3 games.
Would all 3 need to be dropped? - can't say as of yet. Would the cuts be deep? Also don't know yet.
What I do know is that between the current titles we run and some others that we area looking at the time to move from a niche business to something real is now.
I'm sure that Geoff means well and could possibly even do a better job running MLG than I do but guess what? He's not in charge over here - I am. I will continue to do what I think needs to be done to create a business that lives on long after I have left.
Again - I'm not going to apologize for being honest with you. You and other fans like you hold the future of competitive gaming (eSports) in your grasp. Both here and abroad.
I'm doing what I can. Hopefully you all are as well. Support your passion - even if MLG isn't a part of your vision for what competitive gaming should be than support the organizations that are.
With much respect and a lot of love.
-sd
While I appreciate the honesty, the way in which you presented the fact that you basically needed 100,000 subscribers made it seem much more like extortion than honesty. It also doesn't make sense to me that with 100,000 subscribers you can vastly increase the prize pool but apparently with any less you're forced to cut events.
Regardless of what investors want to see, there is always a middle ground, and it seems dishonest not to present it.
On July 30 2011 06:41 sekalf wrote: Incontrol you are making me a bit sad. I used to be such a huge fan, but these strange comments you are making lately is really making me confused.
Why the hate?
Incontrol has always been like that; he's pretty much the only "professional" gamer that I actually hate as a person.
Dude.. You are so quick to just throw out the term "hate" - Do you even realize what it means? What it entails to actually 'hate' a person? You're talking about an active member of our community! Don't fucking say you 'hate' someone here, grow the fuck up
Because you are an "active" member, you get to say whatever?
A community is filled with people not liking other people. A community are filled with people with different ideas. People can hate on whoever they want. Don't try to be a saint and have this idea of a "everyone get along" community.
On July 30 2011 07:03 SundanceMLG wrote: To elaborate on my tweet regarding needing to lower prize money if we can't sell 100,000 subs - we run 3 games.
Would all 3 need to be dropped? - can't say as of yet. Would the cuts be deep? Also don't know yet.
What I do know is that between the current titles we run and some others that we area looking at the time to move from a niche business to something real is now.
I'm sure that Geoff means well and could possibly even do a better job running MLG than I do but guess what? He's not in charge over here - I am. I will continue to do what I think needs to be done to create a business that lives on long after I have left.
Again - I'm not going to apologize for being honest with you. You and other fans like you hold the future of competitive gaming (eSports) in your grasp. Both here and abroad.
I'm doing what I can. Hopefully you all are as well. Support your passion - even if MLG isn't a part of your vision for what competitive gaming should be than support the organizations that are.
With much respect and a lot of love.
-sd
Just bought my pass, good luck in the future Sundance!
I've grown to like Incontrol as I've been following the pro SC2 scene. I think he's wrong here, but I bet a lot of people have the same misconception about the business side.
MLG is estimated to have yearly revenue of $20 million (courtesy of Wired). But I bet they are losing money big time given the size of the events they throw and the professionalism they bring to organizing the event. That's ok, though. VC guys who fund start-up businesses look for opportunities with big growth and don't expect to make money right away. They can afford to lose money while looking for the next Big Thing.
Sundance is essentially trying to find out if this is going to work. If there isn't enough interest to buy 100k tickets to the esports events, then there isn't enough interest to support an organization of his size and ambition. At least right now (which is what he cares about). Gaming is getting bigger and I think the right question is when and how.
IMHO, I think he's probably got a pretty good shot at it. Gaming is getting increasingly interesting as a spectator sport and video on demand over the internet is going to help it a lot. Time will tell.
I'm not sure anybody should really be buying the ticket as charity to "support esports," though. You should buy the ticket because it's a pretty good product. That's why I did anyway.
If you want to help grow esports, invite some people over and tell them about it. Esports will grow as its fan base grows.
P.S. Not every sports owner/organizer kicks back extra ticket revenue to the players. So props for Sundance for committing to it. He could just sell more tickets and declare his business profitable to his investors.
[edit] P.P.S. Sundance! Stop reading TL threads and go back to making sure MLG Anaheim kicks ass!
On July 30 2011 06:41 sekalf wrote: Incontrol you are making me a bit sad. I used to be such a huge fan, but these strange comments you are making lately is really making me confused.
Why the hate?
Incontrol has always been like that; he's pretty much the only "professional" gamer that I actually hate as a person.
Dude.. You are so quick to just throw out the term "hate" - Do you even realize what it means? What it entails to actually 'hate' a person? You're talking about an active member of our community! Don't fucking say you 'hate' someone here, grow the fuck up
Because you are an "active" member, you get to say whatever?
A community is filled with people not liking other people. A community are filled with people with different ideas. People can hate on whoever they want. Don't try to be a saint and have this idea of a "everyone get along" community.
Indeed.
I don't see how incontrol is an active member of the community anymore either, his posts nowadays involve flaming, saying "lol" or "GET SOME" in threads about him flaming other more respected members of the community and PR for stuff he is involved in like gosucoaching, NASL, EG.
On July 30 2011 07:03 SundanceMLG wrote: To elaborate on my tweet regarding needing to lower prize money if we can't sell 100,000 subs - we run 3 games.
Would all 3 need to be dropped? - can't say as of yet. Would the cuts be deep? Also don't know yet.
What I do know is that between the current titles we run and some others that we area looking at the time to move from a niche business to something real is now.
I'm sure that Geoff means well and could possibly even do a better job running MLG than I do but guess what? He's not in charge over here - I am. I will continue to do what I think needs to be done to create a business that lives on long after I have left.
Again - I'm not going to apologize for being honest with you. You and other fans like you hold the future of competitive gaming (eSports) in your grasp. Both here and abroad.
I'm doing what I can. Hopefully you all are as well. Support your passion - even if MLG isn't a part of your vision for what competitive gaming should be than support the organizations that are.
With much respect and a lot of love.
-sd
While I appreciate the honesty, the way in which you presented the fact that you basically needed 100,000 subscribers made it seem much more like extortion than honesty. It also doesn't make sense to me that with 100,000 subscribers you can vastly increase the prize pool but apparently with any less you're forced to cut events.
Regardless of what investors want to see, there is always a middle ground, and it seems dishonest not to present it.
As Beyonder already pointed out, yes.
Sure, there would have to be some cuts. But, to cut a prize pool that is already pretty small as I pointed out. I think there are other ways to make such cuts. Besides that, you don't have to respond to everybody SD via Twitter or what not. It's you baby boy, how you decide to grow it is ultimately up to you.
On July 30 2011 06:41 sekalf wrote: Incontrol you are making me a bit sad. I used to be such a huge fan, but these strange comments you are making lately is really making me confused.
Why the hate?
Incontrol has always been like that; he's pretty much the only "professional" gamer that I actually hate as a person.
Dude.. You are so quick to just throw out the term "hate" - Do you even realize what it means? What it entails to actually 'hate' a person? You're talking about an active member of our community! Don't fucking say you 'hate' someone here, grow the fuck up
Because you are an "active" member, you get to say whatever?
A community is filled with people not liking other people. A community are filled with people with different ideas. People can hate on whoever they want. Don't try to be a saint and have this idea of a "everyone get along" community.
It was pretty obvious to me that he was making fun of Incontrol's whole professionalism crusade, not actually insulting me.
Let me convert that to Incontrol-ese:
It was pretty oblivious to me that he was poking jests at Incontrol's profiling tirade, not actually insinuating me.
-.- How did offering to increase prize pool become a shitstorm? Right. Because people are ungrateful and cynical. If you don't support it, shush and let the people that do want a pass be happy. If you do support it, then be constructive. Having the potential for a higher prize pool is BETTER than NOT having the potential for a higher prize pool. What did anyone lose?
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
The actual figures for UFC fighters -- the most popular ones like Lesnar -- are around 500K per fight... the individual bonuses are not disclosed though... but yeah I agree that MLG is infinitely worse in this respect. You have NASL pays 100K, IPL pays 50K and plenty of small tournaments here and there easily exceed 10-20K in prize money.. to offer 14K as total prize money for SC2 borders on exploitation and it's certainly extremely greedy for a business that turns out 30 million in profits yearly.
On July 30 2011 07:22 CeriseCherries wrote: -.- How did offering to increase prize pool become a shitstorm? Right. Because people are ungrateful and cynical. If you don't support it, shush and let the people that do want a pass be happy. If you do support it, then be constructive. Having the potential for a higher prize pool is BETTER than NOT having the potential for a higher prize pool. What did anyone lose?
What people were insulted by was the manner in which he presented it; it was basically phrased like an ultimatum instead of a "hey, if we get enough subscribers, we'll raise the prize pool!".
Basically, it looked like he was taking something the community wanted (larger prize pools) and using that desire to try to take more money from the community.
For clarification, I don't actually feel that way, it's just the way it first appeared when he made that tweet.
On July 30 2011 07:22 CeriseCherries wrote: -.- How did offering to increase prize pool become a shitstorm? Right. Because people are ungrateful and cynical. If you don't support it, shush and let the people that do want a pass be happy. If you do support it, then be constructive. Having the potential for a higher prize pool is BETTER than NOT having the potential for a higher prize pool. What did anyone lose?
What people were insulted by was the manner in which he presented it; it was basically phrased like an ultimatum instead of a "hey, if we get enough subscribers, we'll raise the prize pool!".
Basically, it looked like he was taking something the community wanted (larger prize pools) and using that desire to try to take more money from the community.
For clarification, I don't actually feel that way, it's just the way it first appeared when he made that tweet.
Not just that, but he threatened to reduce the prize pool if we did not oblige... what sundance has done is coercion
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
The actual figures for UFC fighters -- the most popular ones like Lesnar -- are around 500K per fight... the individual bonuses are not disclosed though... but yeah I agree that MLG is infinitely worse in this respect. You have NASL pays 100K, IPL pays 50K and plenty of small tournaments here and there easily exceed 10-20K in prize money.. to offer 14K as total prize money for SC2 borders on exploitation and it's certainly extremely greedy for a business that turns out 30 million in profits yearly.
Its not 30mil in profits. whoever stated those numbers said revenue. How much do you think running 1 MLG costs? they run 6?(7?) a year. How much staff do they have + equipment+ travel+ renting a convention centre. Not to mention the day-to-day employees and operations at the head office. Its not as simple as " Hey they have 30mil in revenue , wheres my money". Sundance is just stating he needs 100k passes sold to keep this sustainable, and he's pledging to increase the prize pool if it happens.
The lowering prize pool comment amy not ahve been needed, but he was just being honest.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
That's nice. Except, your still confused on what we actually wanted from you. I would be surprised if there were 100,000 people willing to give up 30$, considering the largest broadcasts of sc2 to date have been around the 80k concurrent range. Considering that a fraction of people will actually pay for anything, that's around say 40k at most, would be willing to buy your pass.
That is, if you didn't cast your self as someone who isn't really "in touch" with its user base. By that, i mean the fact that you think that we want "more prize pool". While more prize pool would be nice (and i'm not complaining), its NOT what was asked for from the community, and on SOTG.
What Tyler was referring too, and what made you the laughing stock of the community, was the fact that the prize pool distribution is way too heavy for the winner of mlg, and gives nothing for the top most players. He/We were suggesting that instead of first place being 5000, and so on down the line, paying out till 8th place, he wanted something that was of a lower first place, and paid more, say, for the people who placed in the top 14 or so. (3000 1st, 2000 2nd, 1500 3rd, 1200 4th, 1000 5th, 800 6-8th, etc. Same prize pool) *These arn't the exact numbers, just something i came up with on the top of my head.
Of course, you wouldn't actually be able to sign out and give that very large check, with the cool background, and the higher prize pool on it. (Ego anyone?) Instead, you turn the table, and change the problem to what it would take for a large prize pool.
We know that you will be able to give more if you get more. Its common sense. What we need is a slight taste, relating that back to a previous success (like how your moving sc2 to the main stage area).
What we don't need is for someone to shove t-shirts down our throats, products to buy, and being told that if your not buying, your not helping. Saying these things makes the value of your brand go down, and makes you seem a little bit obtuse.
When football started out as a professional sport, do you think the owners of teams went around the stadiums, making speeches, going on newspaper and radio, and talking about the financial stability of the sport, and begging people to throw money at him? (no, they did this in private, talking to investors and sponsors)
MLG will succeed or fail, not due to the amount of people that throw money at you, but because of your sponsorships and viewer numbers. (Which is something that you cannot ask directly for.) Increased viewer numbers (premium or not), will increase sponsorship interest, which will in turn help generate that 3 million you are asking for.
So instead of asking people for their money, please, ask just for their willingness to watch MLG, (people might be more interested in buying an mlg membership if they can "trust" the company they are buying it from). In the long run, becoming a sustainable business (or professional sport) has whole lot to do with how you present your product, and how many people you can get to watch it.
Funny how people who dont have a chance of getting a big chunk of the prizepool saying its little. IMO most spectators don't really care about the prizepool but more about the type of tournament + quality. So what if first place get $5k more? What if the $5k was spent elsewhere, e.g better HQ streams or more seats at the venue or a bigger venue.
And then people complain about koreans flying over to talk 'their' money away if you cant keep up with them then a) retire or b) stfu and get better
If people feel the need to hand over more money to increase prizes, MLG is a bad choice. Very little of your subscription fees will actually end up in the players' hands. Instead, I suggest you donate to events like TB's tournaments where 100% of the money you give goes directly to the players.
On July 30 2011 07:30 Nuttyguy wrote: Funny how people who dont have a chance of getting a big chunk of the prizepool saying its little. IMO most spectators don't really care about the prizepool but more about the type of tournament + quality. So what if first place get $5k more? What if the $5k was spent elsewhere, e.g better HQ streams or more seats at the venue or a bigger venue.
And then people complain about koreans flying over to talk 'their' money away if you cant keep up with them then a) retire or b) stfu and get better
Money generates hype. When there's a lot of it on the line, shit gets more exciting.
inControl said in an earlier post that Sundance should have simply asked people to "Buy MLG subscriptions to support e-sports!". Bullshit. It's too vague, provides no practical reason for purchasing the sub, and really, why should we "support e-sports" to begin with?
"Buy passes to support the players and allow us to run bigger and better events." That's something I can buy into. Sundance has asked us to buy tickets, and given us a reason why we should. It's a basic business strategy because it WORKS. Look at the new NHL team in Winnipeg. Betman said "We need to sell 11000 season tickets to make this a worthwhile venture, prove to us that you deserve this team." And in within 3 days, they'd hit that goal. Do you think they would have done so well if Betman had just said "Buy season tickets to support your team!!!" HELL NO!
Sundance, keep doing what you're doing man. It's clear that you have a vision, and strategy in place to reach that goal. If you don't succeed, no one will ever be able to say it's due to a lack of effort.
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
The actual figures for UFC fighters -- the most popular ones like Lesnar -- are around 500K per fight... the individual bonuses are not disclosed though... but yeah I agree that MLG is infinitely worse in this respect. You have NASL pays 100K, IPL pays 50K and plenty of small tournaments here and there easily exceed 10-20K in prize money.. to offer 14K as total prize money for SC2 borders on exploitation and it's certainly extremely greedy for a business that turns out 30 million in profits yearly.
MLG loses money yearly, at best it breaks even, or makes a very, very small profit. You're talking about $30 million in "revenue", which is simply a measure of the money coming into the business, before measuring the costs associated with running the business in the first place.
On July 30 2011 07:30 Nuttyguy wrote: Funny how people who dont have a chance of getting a big chunk of the prizepool saying its little. IMO most spectators don't really care about the prizepool but more about the type of tournament + quality. So what if first place get $5k more? What if the $5k was spent elsewhere, e.g better HQ streams or more seats at the venue or a bigger venue.
And then people complain about koreans flying over to talk 'their' money away if you cant keep up with them then a) retire or b) stfu and get better
Keep in mind, there has to be more than just exposure to send out international pros overseas as I already pointed out before. If the prize pool is relatively small a lot of the teams won't bother sending their players. It's small enough as is and top heavy as many people have pointed out before.
There are other methods to cut down your costs. I don't know why anyone would automatically think about cutting down the prize money when the con's outweigh the pro's.
It really comes down to how you pitch something. If there is something that most organizers lack... it's PR. There are better ways to pitch your brand.
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
The actual figures for UFC fighters -- the most popular ones like Lesnar -- are around 500K per fight... the individual bonuses are not disclosed though... but yeah I agree that MLG is infinitely worse in this respect. You have NASL pays 100K, IPL pays 50K and plenty of small tournaments here and there easily exceed 10-20K in prize money.. to offer 14K as total prize money for SC2 borders on exploitation and it's certainly extremely greedy for a business that turns out 30 million in profits yearly.
MLG loses money yearly, at best it breaks even, or makes a very, very small profit. You're talking about $30 million in "revenue", which is simply a measure of the money coming into the business, before measuring the costs associated with running the business in the first place.
If they break even, that's $30 million in costs. $190k are the starcraft prizes, the total should be around $1m for all games. That's 3.3% of their budget. I'm absolutely certain that number is at least an order of magnitude smaller than ANY other major tournament's cost structure.
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
The actual figures for UFC fighters -- the most popular ones like Lesnar -- are around 500K per fight... the individual bonuses are not disclosed though... but yeah I agree that MLG is infinitely worse in this respect. You have NASL pays 100K, IPL pays 50K and plenty of small tournaments here and there easily exceed 10-20K in prize money.. to offer 14K as total prize money for SC2 borders on exploitation and it's certainly extremely greedy for a business that turns out 30 million in profits yearly.
MLG loses money yearly, at best it breaks even, or makes a very, very small profit. You're talking about $30 million in "revenue", which is simply a measure of the money coming into the business, before measuring the costs associated with running the business in the first place.
why does mlg continue then? theres got to be at least some incentive to continue and its prob not some bullshit like doing it for the fans because everything is for profits.
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
The actual figures for UFC fighters -- the most popular ones like Lesnar -- are around 500K per fight... the individual bonuses are not disclosed though... but yeah I agree that MLG is infinitely worse in this respect. You have NASL pays 100K, IPL pays 50K and plenty of small tournaments here and there easily exceed 10-20K in prize money.. to offer 14K as total prize money for SC2 borders on exploitation and it's certainly extremely greedy for a business that turns out 30 million in profits yearly.
MLG loses money yearly, at best it breaks even, or makes a very, very small profit. You're talking about $30 million in "revenue", which is simply a measure of the money coming into the business, before measuring the costs associated with running the business in the first place.
why does mlg continue then? theres got to be at least some incentive to continue and its prob not some bullshit like doing it for the fans because everything is for profits.
MLG is a Venture Capital Project. Most investors expect a loss in the first few years of operations but expect empirical evidence of sustainability within that time span. To do this Sundance is trying to get the subscriptions up, otherwise as he pointed out they could lose future funding. Leading to cuts across the board which he acknowledged in his second post.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
That's nice. Except, your still confused on what we actually wanted from you. I would be surprised if there were 100,000 people willing to give up 30$, considering the largest broadcasts of sc2 to date have been around the 80k concurrent range. Considering that a fraction of people will actually pay for anything, that's around say 40k at most, would be willing to buy your pass.
That is, if you didn't cast your self as someone who isn't really "in touch" with its user base. By that, i mean the fact that you think that we want "more prize pool". While more prize pool would be nice (and i'm not complaining), its NOT what was asked for from the community, and on SOTG.
What Tyler was referring too, and what made you the laughing stock of the community, was the fact that the prize pool distribution is way too heavy for the winner of mlg, and gives nothing for the top most players. He/We were suggesting that instead of first place being 5000, and so on down the line, paying out till 8th place, he wanted something that was of a lower first place, and paid more, say, for the people who placed in the top 14 or so. (3000 1st, 2000 2nd, 1500 3rd, 1200 4th, 1000 5th, 800 6-8th, etc. Same prize pool) *These arn't the exact numbers, just something i came up with on the top of my head.
Of course, you wouldn't actually be able to sign out and give that very large check, with the cool background, and the higher prize pool on it. (Ego anyone?) Instead, you turn the table, and change the problem to what it would take for a large prize pool.
We know that you will be able to give more if you get more. Its common sense. What we need is a slight taste, relating that back to a previous success (like how your moving sc2 to the main stage area).
What we don't need is for someone to shove t-shirts down our throats, products to buy, and being told that if your not buying, your not helping. Saying these things makes the value of your brand go down, and makes you seem a little bit obtuse.
When football started out as a professional sport, do you think the owners of teams went around the stadiums, making speeches, going on newspaper and radio, and talking about the financial stability of the sport, and begging people to throw money at him? (no, they did this in private, talking to investors and sponsors)
MLG will succeed or fail, not due to the amount of people that throw money at you, but because of your sponsorships and viewer numbers. (Which is something that you cannot ask directly for.) Increased viewer numbers (premium or not), will increase sponsorship interest, which will in turn help generate that 3 million you are asking for.
So instead of asking people for their money, please, ask just for their willingness to watch MLG, (people might be more interested in buying an mlg membership if they can "trust" the company they are buying it from). In the long run, becoming a sustainable business (or professional sport) has whole lot to do with how you present your product, and how many people you can get to watch it.
Tyler suggested that some of the MLG National Championship money be spread throughout the other 6 events. IE instead of a 50k grand prize 25k and make each MLG champion in the regular season get 10k. He did not suggest lowering the normal circuit events first place prize.
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
The actual figures for UFC fighters -- the most popular ones like Lesnar -- are around 500K per fight... the individual bonuses are not disclosed though... but yeah I agree that MLG is infinitely worse in this respect. You have NASL pays 100K, IPL pays 50K and plenty of small tournaments here and there easily exceed 10-20K in prize money.. to offer 14K as total prize money for SC2 borders on exploitation and it's certainly extremely greedy for a business that turns out 30 million in profits yearly.
MLG loses money yearly, at best it breaks even, or makes a very, very small profit. You're talking about $30 million in "revenue", which is simply a measure of the money coming into the business, before measuring the costs associated with running the business in the first place.
what's your source on that? I seem to remember reading an article a while ago saying that mlg actually made a ton of money off the event it was written after. I can't remember where that article is it was so long ago, maybe someone else knows, but i'm pretty sure they aren't losing money or breaking even.
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
The actual figures for UFC fighters -- the most popular ones like Lesnar -- are around 500K per fight... the individual bonuses are not disclosed though... but yeah I agree that MLG is infinitely worse in this respect. You have NASL pays 100K, IPL pays 50K and plenty of small tournaments here and there easily exceed 10-20K in prize money.. to offer 14K as total prize money for SC2 borders on exploitation and it's certainly extremely greedy for a business that turns out 30 million in profits yearly.
MLG loses money yearly, at best it breaks even, or makes a very, very small profit. You're talking about $30 million in "revenue", which is simply a measure of the money coming into the business, before measuring the costs associated with running the business in the first place.
why does mlg continue then? theres got to be at least some incentive to continue and its prob not some bullshit like doing it for the fans because everything is for profits.
Like almost all business ventures, the idea is that you can operate on a loss for the first few years, while simultaneously growing and expanding the business. Up-front costs are higher than the cost of growth, so long as you continue to grow and expand, eventually you make a profit.
If anything can be gained from this thread, it's that incontrol is probably the most inconsistent person ever. When the NASL Season 1 was about to start, he was hyping it up and practically begging people to buy season passes to support E-Sports. The result was meh (and I'm being generous because I bought the season pass). Now that Sundance is asking for support when he's shown that MLG can put out a quality product, he gets all butthurt for no reason. (and also makes comments that would get anyone else banned for trolling)
For something as niche as E-Sports, I'm ready to spend money to support it. To expect anything else is kind of ungrateful.
On July 30 2011 07:51 UniversalMind wrote: Incontrol is know for being extremely inconsistent so his post does not shock me
The word you're looking for is "hypocritical", or perhaps "douche-tastic".
Thank you! Seriously, Incontrol don't you have a tournament to prepare for? What kind of a "pro"-gamer goes on a hating spree several hours before a match...
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
The actual figures for UFC fighters -- the most popular ones like Lesnar -- are around 500K per fight... the individual bonuses are not disclosed though... but yeah I agree that MLG is infinitely worse in this respect. You have NASL pays 100K, IPL pays 50K and plenty of small tournaments here and there easily exceed 10-20K in prize money.. to offer 14K as total prize money for SC2 borders on exploitation and it's certainly extremely greedy for a business that turns out 30 million in profits yearly.
MLG loses money yearly, at best it breaks even, or makes a very, very small profit. You're talking about $30 million in "revenue", which is simply a measure of the money coming into the business, before measuring the costs associated with running the business in the first place.
why does mlg continue then? theres got to be at least some incentive to continue and its prob not some bullshit like doing it for the fans because everything is for profits.
MLG is a Venture Capital Project. Most investors expect a loss in the first few years of operations but expect empirical evidence of sustainability within that time span. To do this Sundance is trying to get the subscriptions up, otherwise as he pointed out they could lose future funding. Leading to cuts across the board which he acknowledged in his second post.
Yeah sort of like PS3 and Xbox 360 sales in the first few years sold at loss per console but builds consumer market up for those consoles and lead to profits once more and more games are bought on each of those consoles.
Just for shits, I'm gonna put this in perspective:
3 month subscription to MLG: $10. Depending on the dates, this can net you 2 or 3 events
12 month subscription to MLG: $30. This will get you all six events
Now for the perspective part: As a dude watching online, it cost me $455 to watch MLG Columbus. I know, right? Here's how it went down:
I had to attend a wedding that weekend way, way, way out of town. In order to ensure that I could watch the Friday night games and sneak out between the ceremony and reception to catch some Saturday, I booked a hotel for two nights. The only hotel in the town with TVs that I could hook an HDMI cable into. Given that we already had a place to crash, this was an extra cost.
Hotel room: $240
HD pass for the weekend: $10
But it turns out that I would also miss the Saturday night games because the reception was super long and I was asked to help with the cleanup which would keep me busy until about 3 am. To combat this, I purchased the Justin.TV app for my iPhone so that I could watch it all night.
Justin.TV iPhone App: $5
The tricky thing with this setup is that unlimited data plans in Canada occupy the same realm of myth as UFOs, Sasquatch and the Loch Ness Moster. I burned through my subscription data pretty darn quickly.
Additional data charges on my cellphone bill: $120
And that's where it should end, right? Wrong. Because I was totally distracted and watching MLG while the reception was going on, I totally missed the dodge when some girl threw up on me. Curdled milk puke is tough to get out of a suit.
Dry-cleaning bill: $80
And that brings the grand total, all in an effort to watch MLG Columbus while in the middle of nowhere, to $455. And know what? It was worth it. Almost.
On July 30 2011 08:25 Flaccid wrote: Just for shits, I'm gonna put this in perspective:
This doesn't put anything in perspective because it's not a normal situation. This just shows how far you are willing to go to watch this. I don't have that kind of money to do shit like that so I'd've probably been content with watching Twitter all weekend.
On July 30 2011 05:32 s4life wrote: So he get a million bucks and he raises the prizes by a lot -- say 50%? -- that would make a whooping 7k for first prize... only the UFC pays worse to its players -- relative to their profit -- I believe.
To be fair to the UFC, their top fighters make millions per fight. A vast amount of "smaller" tourneys than MLG pay out more in prize money than them. It is an embarrassing issue. They should feel embarrassed about it. I don't have much opinion about what's going on in this thread...but there is no doubt the prize pool is an issue that needs to be talked about. Any discussion of it being lowered are incredibly offensive and should not be discussed. If that was ever actually considered, they should just shut their doors.
The actual figures for UFC fighters -- the most popular ones like Lesnar -- are around 500K per fight... the individual bonuses are not disclosed though...
Yeah...we all know that Lesnar, GSP, Silva, etc. also get a PPV cut. Many have put their per bout $ at 4mill+.
Just for shits, I'm gonna put this in perspective:
3 month subscription to MLG: $10. Depending on the dates, this can net you 2 or 3 events
12 month subscription to MLG: $30. This will get you all six events
Now for the perspective part: As a dude watching online, it cost me $455 to watch MLG Columbus. I know, right? Here's how it went down:
I had to attend a wedding that weekend way, way, way out of town. In order to ensure that I could watch the Friday night games and sneak out between the ceremony and reception to catch some Saturday, I booked a hotel for two nights. The only hotel in the town with TVs that I could hook an HDMI cable into. Given that we already had a place to crash, this was an extra cost.
Hotel room: $240
HD pass for the weekend: $10
But it turns out that I would also miss the Saturday night games because the reception was super long and I was asked to help with the cleanup which would keep me busy until about 3 am. To combat this, I purchased the Justin.TV app for my iPhone so that I could watch it all night.
Justin.TV iPhone App: $5
The tricky thing with this setup is that unlimited data plans in Canada occupy the same realm of myth as UFOs, Sasquatch and the Loch Ness Moster. I burned through my subscription data pretty darn quickly.
Additional data charges on my cellphone bill: $120
And that's where it should end, right? Wrong. Because I was totally distracted and watching MLG while the reception was going on, I totally missed the dodge when some girl threw up on me. Curdled milk puke is tough to get out of a suit.
Dry-cleaning bill: $80
And that brings the grand total, all in an effort to watch MLG Columbus while in the middle of nowhere, to $455. And know what? It was worth it. Almost.
On July 30 2011 08:25 Flaccid wrote: Just for shits, I'm gonna put this in perspective:
3 month subscription to MLG: $10. Depending on the dates, this can net you 2 or 3 events
12 month subscription to MLG: $30. This will get you all six events
Now for the perspective part: As a dude watching online, it cost me $455 to watch MLG Columbus. I know, right? Here's how it went down:
I had to attend a wedding that weekend way, way, way out of town. In order to ensure that I could watch the Friday night games and sneak out between the ceremony and reception to catch some Saturday, I booked a hotel for two nights. The only hotel in the town with TVs that I could hook an HDMI cable into. Given that we already had a place to crash, this was an extra cost.
Hotel room: $240
HD pass for the weekend: $10
But it turns out that I would also miss the Saturday night games because the reception was super long and I was asked to help with the cleanup which would keep me busy until about 3 am. To combat this, I purchased the Justin.TV app for my iPhone so that I could watch it all night.
Justin.TV iPhone App: $5
The tricky thing with this setup is that unlimited data plans in Canada occupy the same realm of myth as UFOs, Sasquatch and the Loch Ness Moster. I burned through my subscription data pretty darn quickly.
Additional data charges on my cellphone bill: $120
And that's where it should end, right? Wrong. Because I was totally distracted and watching MLG while the reception was going on, I totally missed the dodge when some girl threw up on me. Curdled milk puke is tough to get out of a suit.
Dry-cleaning bill: $80
And that brings the grand total, all in an effort to watch MLG Columbus while in the middle of nowhere, to $455. And know what? It was worth it. Almost.
On July 30 2011 08:25 Flaccid wrote: Just for shits, I'm gonna put this in perspective:
This doesn't put anything in perspective because it's not a normal situation.
Albeit it was a bit tongue in cheek, but the perspective part came in that you get hundreds of dollars of entertainment for free or a meager $10 charge if you want to toss some change in the hat.
Lots of people in eSports have been there before there was the potential for $ that there is now. We don't blame casters like Day9 for (presumably) starting to profit from it. Likewise with JP, likewise with other casters, players from streaming. Why shouldn't MLG?
Why doesn't iNControl drop the sarcasm and just come out and claim Sundance is profiteering? Definitely not a post that supports the growth of eSports.
iNcontroL I'm a big fan of your SC2 personality but you really need to take another approach to the whole "troll" thing. You constantly acknowledge and call people out on your stream and webshows for trolling, yet you actively participate in it.
Good luck with the goal Sundance, it gave me an incentive to buy a pass. It's cool knowing that you are still looking for things to use subscription funds for and not just banking them.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Man, I wish I had a switch that turned on all of that...
Joking aside, I bought an HD pass because MLG has been a shining example of how to handle problems. That's something I can respect and pay for.
I like how iNcontroL is somehow the one at fault here. He's playing in the fucking tournament. Go ahead and think he's trolling or being sarcastic, (or whatever else you want to say) but the heat he's getting from a few posts he's thrown out WHILE HE IS PRESENTLY AT MLG is ridiculous.
More subscribers means more money? Sure. More money means... a large increase in the somewhat low prize pool? Sure. Sounds good. What's wrong with that? Nothing. Nothing is wrong with that.
The only thing iNcontroL is commenting on is how Sundance sounded. It's got nothing to do with the tournament, and everything to do with the image of esports and Sundance himself.
Get back to watching your HD with no advertisements all you haters. You paid money to enjoy MLG not to hate on your hater target, haters.
On July 30 2011 08:25 Flaccid wrote: And that brings the grand total, all in an effort to watch MLG Columbus while in the middle of nowhere, to $455. And know what? It was worth it. Almost.
Nice . Like others said though, most people do not have much spare money going around./
I mean how can I buy hats on TF2 if I'm paying for SC2 related stuff?
Solution to this is to have Blizzard sponsor these events and give limited edition items (well maybe decals and/or portraits) for people who buy the HD package?
Except that would be evil.... but sadly it works >.<.
Post actually started as a joke then I realized that Blizzard could do it. They already do it with virtual Blizzcon tickets (get everything you can get for free on youtube afterwards for only $39.95. Everyone knows it's for the limited edition SC2 and WoW items >.>).
Valve helps some games out by letting you obtain a limited edition (well "Genuine" version which goes higher in the trade market) if you pre order stuff (only if they say it gets you a TF2 item though).
Overall this sounds like an evil idea but it may help eSports (some people who may not even be into eSports would buy these things just for the items. For example imagine you get an exclusive WoW and/or SC2 portrait, item, pet, etc if you bought the HD vresion of<insert Tournament tickets here>).
Now that I really think about it, WoW players have lots of money (well they're willing to pay lots of money. I've seen a Blizzcon 2007 item go for $500+ on Ebay). WoW players like limited stuff. Limited stuff + eSports ticket + WoW players = Helps eSports >.>.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
That's nice. Except, your still confused on what we actually wanted from you. I would be surprised if there were 100,000 people willing to give up 30$, considering the largest broadcasts of sc2 to date have been around the 80k concurrent range. Considering that a fraction of people will actually pay for anything, that's around say 40k at most, would be willing to buy your pass.
That is, if you didn't cast your self as someone who isn't really "in touch" with its user base. By that, i mean the fact that you think that we want "more prize pool". While more prize pool would be nice (and i'm not complaining), its NOT what was asked for from the community, and on SOTG.
What Tyler was referring too, and what made you the laughing stock of the community, was the fact that the prize pool distribution is way too heavy for the winner of mlg, and gives nothing for the top most players. He/We were suggesting that instead of first place being 5000, and so on down the line, paying out till 8th place, he wanted something that was of a lower first place, and paid more, say, for the people who placed in the top 14 or so. (3000 1st, 2000 2nd, 1500 3rd, 1200 4th, 1000 5th, 800 6-8th, etc. Same prize pool) *These arn't the exact numbers, just something i came up with on the top of my head.
Of course, you wouldn't actually be able to sign out and give that very large check, with the cool background, and the higher prize pool on it. (Ego anyone?) Instead, you turn the table, and change the problem to what it would take for a large prize pool.
We know that you will be able to give more if you get more. Its common sense. What we need is a slight taste, relating that back to a previous success (like how your moving sc2 to the main stage area).
What we don't need is for someone to shove t-shirts down our throats, products to buy, and being told that if your not buying, your not helping. Saying these things makes the value of your brand go down, and makes you seem a little bit obtuse.
When football started out as a professional sport, do you think the owners of teams went around the stadiums, making speeches, going on newspaper and radio, and talking about the financial stability of the sport, and begging people to throw money at him? (no, they did this in private, talking to investors and sponsors)
MLG will succeed or fail, not due to the amount of people that throw money at you, but because of your sponsorships and viewer numbers. (Which is something that you cannot ask directly for.) Increased viewer numbers (premium or not), will increase sponsorship interest, which will in turn help generate that 3 million you are asking for.
So instead of asking people for their money, please, ask just for their willingness to watch MLG, (people might be more interested in buying an mlg membership if they can "trust" the company they are buying it from). In the long run, becoming a sustainable business (or professional sport) has whole lot to do with how you present your product, and how many people you can get to watch it.
lol @ this post. I love seeing TL randoms take someone they perceive to be in a position of power to task. They write these detailed posts ripping the person apart like he really did something wrong, when in fact he just made 2 harmless tweets. Telling Sundance about what his business model is ROFL. ("MLG will succeed or fail, not due to the amount of people that throw money at you, but because of your sponsorships and viewer numbers.") Get over yourself kid.
On July 30 2011 10:38 Sd9 wrote: I like how iNcontroL is somehow the one at fault here. He's playing in the fucking tournament. Go ahead and think he's trolling or being sarcastic, (or whatever else you want to say) but the heat he's getting from a few posts he's thrown out WHILE HE IS PRESENTLY AT MLG is ridiculous.
More subscribers means more money? Sure. More money means... a large increase in the somewhat low prize pool? Sure. Sounds good. What's wrong with that? Nothing. Nothing is wrong with that.
The only thing iNcontroL is commenting on is how Sundance sounded. It's got nothing to do with the tournament, and everything to do with the image of esports and Sundance himself.
Get back to watching your HD with no advertisements all you haters. You paid money to enjoy MLG not to hate on your hater target, haters.
What????
Have you any perspective?
Just LOL not reading any hate myself; just the public again having to tell him where the line is, maybe you aren't aware of his history of being an over confident big mouth?
lol @ people saying MLG should feel "embarassed" about how much prize money they offer. If all the best players in the world are wanting to play for them then obviously they are doing something right. If it was truely a huge issue then the players simply wouldn't sign up for it. Of course more prize money would be nice, and I find it pretty obvious that they are going to raise it, however i'm also glad they did things the right way.
First they wanted the streams and fan service to be 100% top notch and so they spent shitloads working on that, then they (probably) spent money focusing on getting the best players in Korea over here. They then spent money getting soundproof booths because they fans demanded it. Finally they focused on getting SC2 as the main event and alot of SEATING lol.
some people in this thread need a little bit of perspective of what truely matters, what good is an event with a huge prize pool if no one is watching? The prize money comes in time, it's only natural.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Pwned!
I would be more than happy to buy a gold membership if i had the money ( broke right now .. ) Can you, by any chance, tell us how much 'significantly' is?
people bitching on this are not really helping 'e-sports'. I'm not saying Sundance is right here, I actually disagree with him asking for more people to get membership. But replys by some people are really inmature, especially if you are a pro-gamers/organiser, and hurt the community --> splitting the community MLG or non-MLG. There are not enough high-tier (read: high prize money) events to support a healthy proffesional community. There are also not enough low-tier events to support the 'upcoming pro's'. Agreeing with Sundance here is personal, and so is getting a membership for any event, but we shouldn't get all angry with anyone over this. Just harmless tweets.. move along nothing special to see...
I would really like to see them move towards GSL style VODS before I shell out any cash for their passes. GL attaining your goal. I hope that MLG continues to grow since it is a great tourney.
on a side note I hope the lag issues and naniwa's keyboard don't become a recurring theme.
Between MLG Columbus, and what I'm watching now of MLG Anaheim, they don't look like a business that might need to make cutbacks to survive. Lets face it, MLG looks successful.
I suppose that it's counter-intuitive though. We see this amazing production value and all of these great players coming from around the world to compete and many of us may not realize how much MLG is (apparently) stretching their budget to make it happen.
Maybe the success of MLG Columbus hasn't had a chance to pay for itself yet? Will Anaheim be the same deal? Is MLG reaching too far too fast? Is NOT reaching that far even an option? If they aren't seen to be improving, are they in danger of losing the momentum and falling flat? Is that what this 100k promise/ultimatum means?
Of course, as far as I know, 100k Subs might not be unreasonable for a tournament of MLG's caliber., especially coming off of the success of Columbus.
But then... WAS Columbus successful? We know the SC2 section of it certainly was, maybe some other event(s) tanked hard and the SC2 success wasn't enough to offset it.
If that last speculation is the case, then maybe picking up MORE games isn't the best move. Perhaps they should focus on what they know is working for a while before seeking new ventures.
On July 30 2011 12:19 Ribbon wrote: I can't believe this is controversial.
If MLG has more money, they will be able to spend more money.
That's....kind of obvious.
But saying not having a certain amount of more money = lowering future prize pools is different.
Doesn't mean they'll be lowering the SC2 prizepool, that'd be horrendous and self-inflicted suicide. The problem some people have is why don't they raise the prizepool for SC2.
Well...SC2 is a relatively new game, it might just be a bubble, they don't want to raise the prizepool prematurely because of a few good events, has to be a little bit longer, hence the 100k subscription goal. They want to see if it's economically viable.
The productions you see is not cheap, neither is the new event in a different city every single time. The staff doesn't work for free. It costs money.
On July 30 2011 07:29 hellsan631 wrote: What we don't need is for someone to shove t-shirts down our throats, products to buy, and being told that if your not buying, your not helping. Saying these things makes the value of your brand go down, and makes you seem a little bit obtuse.
If you're not buying, you're not helping. It's a fact. Stop being entitled. It's not like they're taking away the option to watch TOTALLY FUCKING FREE or anything.
MLG will succeed or fail, not due to the amount of people that throw money at you, but because of your sponsorships and viewer numbers.
....
It doesn't matter how many people buy your product? Wha?
(Which is something that you cannot ask directly for.) Increased viewer numbers (premium or not), will increase sponsorship interest, which will in turn help generate that 3 million you are asking for.
Quick, how many viewers to you need to pull $3 million/year in sponsorship money?
Jesus christ, people are self-entitled. How dare MLG ask more people to buy their products? How dare they adjust their spending based on their revenue? Assholes, clearly.
On July 30 2011 07:29 hellsan631 wrote: What we don't need is for someone to shove t-shirts down our throats, products to buy, and being told that if your not buying, your not helping. Saying these things makes the value of your brand go down, and makes you seem a little bit obtuse.
If you're not buying, you're not helping. It's a fact. Stop being entitled. It's not like they're taking away the option to watch TOTALLY FUCKING FREE or anything.
(Which is something that you cannot ask directly for.) Increased viewer numbers (premium or not), will increase sponsorship interest, which will in turn help generate that 3 million you are asking for.
Quick, how many viewers to you need to pull $3 million/year in sponsorship money?
Jesus christ, people are self-entitled. How dare MLG ask more people to buy their products? How dare they adjust their spending based on their revenue? Assholes, clearly.
You're missing the subtlety of the issue being discussed here. No one is faulting MLG for asking for more subscriptions but the manner in which Sundance has done so. Holding the prizepool for ransom is not the way to go for many people. Even if it's 100% true and anything short of 100k subscriptions mean a possible decrease in the prizepool, no one likes being presented with ultimatums.
How expensive are spectator passes? I saw a tweet from Sundance saying that the SC2 stage has 5000 seats and they're bringing in an additional 160 tomorrow.
On July 30 2011 12:43 Sandro wrote: How expensive are spectator passes? I saw a tweet from Sundance saying that the SC2 stage has 5000 seats and they're bringing in an additional 160 tomorrow.
My main thoughts are that people are jumping the gun too quickly. They should calm down, give their feedback on issues in a calm and reasonable manner, and give MLG some time to respond to the feedback. I think Columbus proved that MLG is very willing to listen to feedback and makes changes when necessary.
This, indeed, is an issue for a lot of people, especially when MLG replays have been a really good source of strategies to try out. The big issue seems to be that there does not seem to be any kind of response as to why they aren't being released after the event. But again, my same suggestions apply here: calm down, give your feedback on issue of replays being released after the event. Tell it to MLG in a calm and reasonable manner, and give MLG some time to respond to the feedback.
And keep in mind, they really don't need to release replays. It was a PRIVILEGE that we got to get all the replays at past events. Keep the fact that no one is really entitled to these replays and be thankful if you get them.
Eh. Once again, give MLG your feedback and that you think that you should be able to watch the 2 streams simultaneously if you bought an HQ pass. This seems like a no-brainer for MLG, but it's probably not something they can fix right away. Just give them your feedback and wait until the next MLG event for them to change it.
This is probably the one that's the most confusing, as there seems to be a lot of emotion being thrown around. Now, I understand how people are really passionate about SC2. But too much emotion can cloud reasoning. MLG DOES have a lot of faults that it doesn't seem to be willing to face/ignoring. However, acting antagonistic towards them isn't the right way to go about things.
MLG has one thing in the right: More subscribers will lead to them raising the prize pool. It's simple business, and that's what MLG is. Aiming for a high subscriber count isn't a bad goal for a business like MLG.
And there are some factors to consider. MLG clearly spend a ton of money on satellite trucks, travel, convention halls, and gaming equipment. At the same time, they also have some big sponsors to offset some of those costs. There’s really no way of really knowing how financially sound the company is - but they are probably not making money hand over fist given their large expenses + staff.
HOWEVER, that's probably where the sympathy for MLG stops.
For a company that only holds 6 events a year, a prize pool of 14,000 dollars, with the First Prize only being 5,000, it's rather pathetic. That's not even enough to cover a lot players' travel costs, especially non-Americans. IMO, First Prize should get at least 7,500 dollars in an event like this at the lowest, and 10,000 to be a respectable amount. When comparing it to the prize pools of other major events, it's a FACT it's much lower than others comparatively. This could even lead to less people attending unless they are near an event.
I don't know their current subscriber numbers, but 100,000 subscribers is a lot to shoot for. If you state "If we sell 100,000 memberships before the national championship I will raise the prize pool. A lot. Next season too" makes it sound like hitting 100,000 is the only way you would even consider raising the prize pool. And when your prize pool is so much lower than most other major tournaments, that's a FACT that asking for 100,000 subscribers is a lot to ask for.
And then going on to state "if that number is to high than I need to cut prize money next year" does come off as a bit dickish. So unless that probably unreasonable goal of 100,000 is met, you're threatening to cut your already lackluster prize pool? Please. That is not the way to woo more potential subscribers. Be optimistic about it, and set a more realistic goal. Provide the services up to the quality that people are expecting when they choose to buy a subscription. Release those replays. Allow for the ability to watch 2 HQ streams with one pass. Things like that will get more people to buy subscriptions because then they'll want to support you.
It's not MLG's place nor anyone else's to tell people to "step up and buy subscriptions". People will buy subscriptions based on how much they value the service, not based on how much they "want to support e-sports". That is also business. Columbus was a step forward in the right direction for MLG, and it gained a lot of supporters following it. However, this attitude by some figures at MLG is quickly losing those same followers.
People could definitely be more polite in their feedback. However, the attitude of some people at MLG isn't really helping, and MLG doesn't seem to be willing to face some facts when comparing their events with other Major events.
On July 30 2011 07:29 hellsan631 wrote: What we don't need is for someone to shove t-shirts down our throats, products to buy, and being told that if your not buying, your not helping. Saying these things makes the value of your brand go down, and makes you seem a little bit obtuse.
If you're not buying, you're not helping. It's a fact. Stop being entitled. It's not like they're taking away the option to watch TOTALLY FUCKING FREE or anything.
MLG will succeed or fail, not due to the amount of people that throw money at you, but because of your sponsorships and viewer numbers.
....
It doesn't matter how many people buy your product? Wha?
(Which is something that you cannot ask directly for.) Increased viewer numbers (premium or not), will increase sponsorship interest, which will in turn help generate that 3 million you are asking for.
Quick, how many viewers to you need to pull $3 million/year in sponsorship money?
Jesus christ, people are self-entitled. How dare MLG ask more people to buy their products? How dare they adjust their spending based on their revenue? Assholes, clearly.
You're missing the subtlety of the issue being discussed here. No one is faulting MLG for asking for more subscriptions but the manner in which Sundance has done so. Holding the prizepool for ransom is not the way to go for many people. Even if it's 100% true and anything short of 100k subscriptions mean a possible decrease in the prizepool, no one likes being presented with ultimatums.
On July 30 2011 07:29 hellsan631 wrote: What we don't need is for someone to shove t-shirts down our throats, products to buy, and being told that if your not buying, your not helping. Saying these things makes the value of your brand go down, and makes you seem a little bit obtuse.
If you're not buying, you're not helping. It's a fact. Stop being entitled. It's not like they're taking away the option to watch TOTALLY FUCKING FREE or anything.
MLG will succeed or fail, not due to the amount of people that throw money at you, but because of your sponsorships and viewer numbers.
....
It doesn't matter how many people buy your product? Wha?
(Which is something that you cannot ask directly for.) Increased viewer numbers (premium or not), will increase sponsorship interest, which will in turn help generate that 3 million you are asking for.
Quick, how many viewers to you need to pull $3 million/year in sponsorship money?
Jesus christ, people are self-entitled. How dare MLG ask more people to buy their products? How dare they adjust their spending based on their revenue? Assholes, clearly.
You're missing the subtlety of the issue being discussed here. No one is faulting MLG for asking for more subscriptions but the manner in which Sundance has done so. Holding the prizepool for ransom is not the way to go for many people. Even if it's 100% true and anything short of 100k subscriptions mean a possible decrease in the prizepool, no one likes being presented with ultimatums.
Is it an ultimatum or is it a fact?
Sundance wrote: "if that number is to high than I need to cut prize money next year."
Whether intentional or not, that sounds like a threat to me. If it wasn't, he definitely could have phrased it better.
So if MLG makes 3 million plus in online revenue they better raise their prizes by 300,000 dollars at least. NASL has 400,000 in prize money, so MLG needs to step up.
On July 30 2011 12:59 nukeazerg wrote: So if MLG makes 3 million plus in online revenue they better raise their prizes by 300,000 dollars at least. NASL has 400,000 in prize money, so MLG needs to step up.
NASL is a replay cast tournament. MLG is a live event. MLG costs a lot more as a result.
On July 30 2011 12:59 nukeazerg wrote: So if MLG makes 3 million plus in online revenue they better raise their prizes by 300,000 dollars at least. NASL has 400,000 in prize money, so MLG needs to step up.
That's because NASL apparently didn't spend a dime to improve production values. When you rent satellite trucks, create a traveling venue, and provide computers and consoles for literally hundreds of players, costs can get pretty high compared to a relatively stationary event. It also shows since MLG seems like a much more presentable face of esports comparatively.
On July 30 2011 12:59 nukeazerg wrote: So if MLG makes 3 million plus in online revenue they better raise their prizes by 300,000 dollars at least. NASL has 400,000 in prize money, so MLG needs to step up.
NASL is a replay cast tournament. MLG is a live event. MLG costs a lot more as a result.
On July 30 2011 12:59 nukeazerg wrote: So if MLG makes 3 million plus in online revenue they better raise their prizes by 300,000 dollars at least. NASL has 400,000 in prize money, so MLG needs to step up.
NASL is a replay cast tournament. MLG is a live event. MLG costs a lot more as a result.
On July 30 2011 12:59 nukeazerg wrote: So if MLG makes 3 million plus in online revenue they better raise their prizes by 300,000 dollars at least. NASL has 400,000 in prize money, so MLG needs to step up.
NASL is a replay cast tournament. MLG is a live event. MLG costs a lot more as a result.
NASL was not cast from replays. It was cast live, but then a recording of the cast was played.
@dabom88 NASL is a 16 person live tournament, and MLG is a 16 man live tournament with a few wildcard players added. They could cut huge manpower costs if they ran their open bracket before hand. That also would cut down on the lag of battle.net at the event.
I like your GSL stance though. I will never pay for starcraft viewing. I don't think esports can rely on paying viewers to be successful in the long run.
Not a penny will go his way from me with such an attitude/comment. Even if it was a "joke" or not, not my kind of humor and it's most likely just the sad truth.
On July 30 2011 13:26 zaii wrote: we don't need 24 events a year, maybe 1-2 MLG events is ok, and plz lower the production value. We don't need that shit.
it's 6 events
and production value is huge in making this a professional event that sponsors can support.
Honestly, i just think that they should advertise the HQ pass more. i mean $30 for the entire year is a pretty good deal.
On July 30 2011 13:26 zaii wrote: we don't need 24 events a year, maybe 1-2 MLG events is ok, and plz lower the production value. We don't need that shit.
it's 6 events
and production value is huge in making this a professional event that sponsors can support.
Honestly, i just think that they should advertise the HQ pass more. i mean $30 for the entire year is a pretty good deal.
On July 30 2011 12:59 nukeazerg wrote: So if MLG makes 3 million plus in online revenue they better raise their prizes by 300,000 dollars at least. NASL has 400,000 in prize money, so MLG needs to step up.
That's because NASL apparently didn't spend a dime to improve production values. When you rent satellite trucks, create a traveling venue, and provide computers and consoles for literally hundreds of players, costs can get pretty high compared to a relatively stationary event. It also shows since MLG seems like a much more presentable face of esports comparatively.
MLG also has to pay a much larger collection of employees.
On July 30 2011 07:29 hellsan631 wrote: What we don't need is for someone to shove t-shirts down our throats, products to buy, and being told that if your not buying, your not helping. Saying these things makes the value of your brand go down, and makes you seem a little bit obtuse.
If you're not buying, you're not helping. It's a fact. Stop being entitled. It's not like they're taking away the option to watch TOTALLY FUCKING FREE or anything.
MLG will succeed or fail, not due to the amount of people that throw money at you, but because of your sponsorships and viewer numbers.
....
It doesn't matter how many people buy your product? Wha?
(Which is something that you cannot ask directly for.) Increased viewer numbers (premium or not), will increase sponsorship interest, which will in turn help generate that 3 million you are asking for.
Quick, how many viewers to you need to pull $3 million/year in sponsorship money?
Jesus christ, people are self-entitled. How dare MLG ask more people to buy their products? How dare they adjust their spending based on their revenue? Assholes, clearly.
You're missing the subtlety of the issue being discussed here. No one is faulting MLG for asking for more subscriptions but the manner in which Sundance has done so. Holding the prizepool for ransom is not the way to go for many people. Even if it's 100% true and anything short of 100k subscriptions mean a possible decrease in the prizepool, no one likes being presented with ultimatums.
Both sound like threats to me, I don't even know how many unique viewers the SC2+Halo+Black Ops streams get, I hope it's at least 300,000 as I can't see half of the viewers buying subscriptions.
Increasing the number of subscribers not only directly increases their revenue from paid subscriptions, but also proves to advertisers that they are able to get a huge viewership and hence, increases their viability to advertisers thereby increasing said revenue too. MLG may have had serious production issues in Dallas, but MLG Columbus has been excellent and I believe that we can trust MLG and Sundance value the production quality as much as we do. However, the costs of maintaining such high production qualities will be high as well, which is what increased revenue will be needed for.
I appreciate the posts and responses Mr Sundance. 99.9 percent of the people in this thread most likely have no idea how hard or just how to even run a company at all. I do admit i enjoy some of the numbers random posters come up with and claim this and that.
I agree that if you can't pull real numbers or real money it will indeed prove that this is in fact a niche company and you won't be able to make a real push as a main stream company. It would be phenomenal to see MLG go international and run multiple leagues and ladders as well as international events.
I believe his intentions in his tweet were misunderstood by most people. If he can't pull these kind of numbers there is no chance of this being what he want/expects it to turn into. I would love to see MLG be a premier organization and they are a great company already. I have 3 real life friends employed by them and they all love it. ( shout out to Dave, Josh, and Galen).
Sundance obviously thinks this could be huge and is riding a lot on that fact. He knows they can and will obtain these numbers most likely. If he cant he is wrong. I don't know why you would consider his tweets a threat as opposed to just an honest fact. If they can't grow then obviously they will either level out or have to shrink to still be able to do what they do.
I love that you are involved with the community and try your best to be involved. I know it is hard to be involved with everything let alone coming to community sites to defend your self. I for one support you and MLG and will be at all your East Coast events.
Keep up the great work MLG and keep pushing for bigger and better things. I honestly believe you will do more then even you expect if your events continue to be as good as they have been. I have a strong hunch great things will come in the future.
On July 30 2011 10:13 GreatHate wrote: iNcontroL I'm a fan of your SC2 personality but you really need to take another approach to the whole "troll" thing. You constantly acknowledge and call people out on your stream and webshows for trolling, yet you actively participate in it.
I absolutely agree. The posts he has made in this thread really makes him look bad. And Sundance seems very desperate by posting this on the teamliquid forums, I mean, MLG has so many companies sponsoring them. Where does this money go?
On July 29 2011 22:26 enecateReAP wrote: Hey guys! Give me $1million and I'll create a tournament with a bigger prize pool than MLGs...
Do people think that all of that imaginary million would be profit? Lol. Seems like people like to ignore the fact that it cost a lot of money as well to organize what MLG is doing.
Edit: meant to write something...
Exactly, getting the venue itself would cost a couple hundred thousand
On July 30 2011 14:45 Odyssey wrote: I appreciate the posts and responses Mr Sundance. 99.9 percent of the people in this thread most likely have no idea how hard or just how to even run a company at all. I do admit i enjoy some of the numbers random posters come up with and claim this and that.
We don't need to run a company to know you can't talk to your current or potential future customer base like he does and expect to be successful. There's a VERY REAL reason PR jobs exist. He talks about legitimizing esports/MLG. Well...it starts by acting like a legitimate company.
On July 30 2011 07:29 hellsan631 wrote: What we don't need is for someone to shove t-shirts down our throats, products to buy, and being told that if your not buying, your not helping. Saying these things makes the value of your brand go down, and makes you seem a little bit obtuse.
If you're not buying, you're not helping. It's a fact. Stop being entitled. It's not like they're taking away the option to watch TOTALLY FUCKING FREE or anything.
MLG will succeed or fail, not due to the amount of people that throw money at you, but because of your sponsorships and viewer numbers.
....
It doesn't matter how many people buy your product? Wha?
(Which is something that you cannot ask directly for.) Increased viewer numbers (premium or not), will increase sponsorship interest, which will in turn help generate that 3 million you are asking for.
Quick, how many viewers to you need to pull $3 million/year in sponsorship money?
Jesus christ, people are self-entitled. How dare MLG ask more people to buy their products? How dare they adjust their spending based on their revenue? Assholes, clearly.
You're missing the subtlety of the issue being discussed here. No one is faulting MLG for asking for more subscriptions but the manner in which Sundance has done so. Holding the prizepool for ransom is not the way to go for many people. Even if it's 100% true and anything short of 100k subscriptions mean a possible decrease in the prizepool, no one likes being presented with ultimatums.
Is it an ultimatum or is it a fact?
Sundance wrote: "if that number is to high than I need to cut prize money next year."
Whether intentional or not, that sounds like a threat to me. If it wasn't, he definitely could have phrased it better.
No it doesn't. It sounds like a stated fact.
A threat would be worded:
"I want to see 100,000 new subscriptions, or else I'm lowering the prize pool."
The fact is that:
"If we can't get 100,000 new subscriptions, then I need to lower the prize pool."
One sentence is a direct threat, the other conveys a necessary action based on results.
Either way I would much rather him advertise then try to force people to subscribe.
A "pro" gamer attacking the major pro-gaming organization in North America, when they are trying to advertise their product and esports. Got to love it.
On July 30 2011 16:06 Sharuko wrote: A "pro" gamer attacking the major pro-gaming organization in North America, when they are trying to advertise their product and esports. Got to love it.
lol "attacking".
You're perfectly justified expressing what you think are faults within an organization. Just because they hold a tournament doesn't mean they're above reproach.
Sundance here is how you save 50,000 dollars. Get rid of onsite open bracket. Just hold that online. Now you don't have to ship a load of computers and have onsite staff to monitor these people, and you can expand the viewing area to sell more tickets. You could even stream the open brackets to make some cash.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
I love watching the growth of e-sports, it's getting bigger and better every day!
PS. I really hope incontrol gets knocked out of group stages so we can finally see his name so away. That kind of comment makes me so mad, almost like he doesn't want people to buy passes so the amount of money he could probably win stays the same. Why would you not support a comment that can only make you get more money for your profession?
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
I still hate how SC2 is on the mainstage and yet Halo has 2x the prize pool and Black Ops has 4x the prize pool. Seriously WTF. Just because MLG was founded on and by "Halo bros" doesn't mean the main stage, most popular game should have the lowest prize pool. It just doesn't make any sense
On July 30 2011 16:32 Halcyondaze wrote: I still hate how SC2 is on the mainstage and yet Halo has 2x the prize pool and Black Ops has 4x the prize pool. Seriously WTF. Just because MLG was founded on and by "Halo bros" doesn't mean the main stage, most popular game should have the lowest prize pool. It just doesn't make any sense
blackops and halo have higher prize pools because they're team games
They have enough prize money but it's not distributed properly between the regular events and the national championship. Also sc2 should have more of share in the prize pool than halo and blackops.
I don't know if 100k is reasonable. Seems like a pretty ridiculous number to me but i hope im wrong.
On July 30 2011 16:32 Halcyondaze wrote: I still hate how SC2 is on the mainstage and yet Halo has 2x the prize pool and Black Ops has 4x the prize pool. Seriously WTF. Just because MLG was founded on and by "Halo bros" doesn't mean the main stage, most popular game should have the lowest prize pool. It just doesn't make any sense
blackops and halo have higher prize pools because they're team games
I realize that. But that doesn't disprove the fact that they are VASTLY less popular than SC2 and bring MUCH more income to MLG than the other two games.
I feel like a hipster...I purchased my pass before this prize pool talk.
Myself and others that I know LOVE it when it's MLG weekend. The whole time we are just sitting, talking with each other and LOVING the whole tournament experience. MLG is amazing, and I appreciate everything you're doing.
Take my small amount of money. I'd rather give it to you then give it to Starbucks for mediocre coffee priced too high.
On July 30 2011 16:32 Halcyondaze wrote: I still hate how SC2 is on the mainstage and yet Halo has 2x the prize pool and Black Ops has 4x the prize pool. Seriously WTF. Just because MLG was founded on and by "Halo bros" doesn't mean the main stage, most popular game should have the lowest prize pool. It just doesn't make any sense
blackops and halo have higher prize pools because they're team games
I realize that. But that doesn't disprove the fact that they are VASTLY less popular than SC2 and bring MUCH more income to MLG than the other two games.
this maybe wasn't necessarily the case when the prize money was set, and it's probably all been budgeted out by this point
This is a great value, and it's dumb to be mad at a business wanting you to give them money. T hey're dumping free content at people and being transparent about their goals, something that should really be earning them some respect from the community. Yes, they want money. They are trying to be a sustainable business. A sustainable MLG means that it keeps happening for years and years to come. That's great for fans, and great for players.
EDIT: @incontrol- Okay, I am your fan but seriously. You were the public face of a league that didn't even have free VODs, nor did the NASL have free HQ. That was also trying to get people to pay an organization money.
i just wanted to say Thank You Sundance, for everything you're doing and everything you've done. If my fiance and i didn't work all weekend we both would be buying passes.
i was definitely one of those people who shit all over MLG when crazy terrible things were happening, but from the little i was able to catch tonight after i got home from work, things are looking up, and i really hope that you're able to get enough memberships~
I'm definitely planning on buying a gold pass when I get out of work, just wondering though - if we are unable to watch live are we able to watch the VODs somehow with the pass?
On July 30 2011 16:25 nukeazerg wrote: Sundance here is how you save 50,000 dollars. Get rid of onsite open bracket. Just hold that online. Now you don't have to ship a load of computers and have onsite staff to monitor these people, and you can expand the viewing area to sell more tickets. You could even stream the open brackets to make some cash.
Yup. Just kill 90% of the festivities of the event. So then we can hold the event in sundance's basement.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
I don't think you have any ground to say what he meant to say, nor how you know how his business is run.
On July 30 2011 16:32 Halcyondaze wrote: I still hate how SC2 is on the mainstage and yet Halo has 2x the prize pool and Black Ops has 4x the prize pool. Seriously WTF. Just because MLG was founded on and by "Halo bros" doesn't mean the main stage, most popular game should have the lowest prize pool. It just doesn't make any sense
blackops and halo have higher prize pools because they're team games
I realize that. But that doesn't disprove the fact that they are VASTLY less popular than SC2 and bring MUCH more income to MLG than the other two games.
this maybe wasn't necessarily the case when the prize money was set, and it's probably all been budgeted out by this point
That's probably the case. Sc2 has EXPLODED way bigger than I think anyone expected it to, and the fact that MLG is doing more and more to be increasingly supportive of SC2 with each passing MLG is a great thing for the community, and shows that they know how to run a business that can last (longevity has been an issue in a lot of esports leagues, lets be honest). Why are people upset that MLG continues to get better and better?
On July 30 2011 05:25 iNcontroL wrote: No. When you get more money you reinvest in areas that need imporovement first. The current prizepool doesn't alienate anyone. If they hit 100k dubs they won't be like " finally! Now that we raised 30 million dollars we can increase the prize pool 10k " if you think thatnus how it works you are A Damn fool
Good job. You understand basic business practices. However, MLG has fantastic production value as is. So that rules out reinvesting into that. That leaves two avenues, both of which Sundance pointed out.
1. Increasing the prize pool for each individual event and for each game across the board. 2. Increasing the number of events held and innovating by including new leagues and games into the circuit.
Sundance has mentioned both of these. While Twitter may not have been the best choice, I fail to see your criticism on this.
I mean, how does this differ from you pushing NASL HD passes and hyping it up? If you're going to point out that you didn't say if you buy them we'll have a bigger prize pool next season. Then I'll just use your advice. When you have money invest it into this that need improvement. Like a new soundperson and overall production value.
I think you missed the other twitter message where Sundance threatened to decrease the prize pool if they don't reach their target.
In either case, many of us are interested in knowing the approx. subscriber base and would appreciate some transparency.
Twitter and Facebook status/walls are terrible ways of making a point and sharing such things. Wording is everything.
Or maybe Sundance was saying that, since they will be increasing the amount of live events held within a year, if they do not meat a certain subscriber base, they will be required to lower prize pools?
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
I busted out my debit card after this, <3 frank honesty.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
Do more of them, improve quality, and just make the whole experience better for both the players and the fans, right? How is that not what MLG is doing right now?
And NASL had terrible free LQ streams, and no free VODs. That was also totally a ploy to get money, except it was slightly less transparent. Now I don't object to this at all! I have 12month MLG membership, a season 1 nasl pass, and will be buying a s2 pass. Making a business work and be sustainable is hard and takes money. I get that, and do what I can to support esports.
Why are you attacking a guy who is trying to do essentially the same thing NASL is doing? The only real difference is MLG is being more up front about it.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's certainly better than begging people to buy passes for an unaired, unrefined product for the sake of ESPORTS. MLG at least has a stated goal/incentive, and some history behind their work. Surely even you can't miss the irony of your statement.
You don't like losing arguments on the internet, we get it. But you really can't expect to carry this one through with any semblance of a viable argument. Ask IdrA or Tyler or any other logical forum addict you can think of. They'll tell you you're being hypocritical on this. Once upon a time you could criticize MLG for this or asking people to buy shirts. That time has long since passed.
Anyways, I ended up getting the Gold Membership. I'm mostly watching EVO all weekend so I want the VODs, plus I decided to buy something from MLG after how well Columbus went.
On July 30 2011 04:41 Leafren wrote: Isn't Incontrol the guy that's always arguing on podcasts that everyone should act professional at all times etc? I'd say comments like that don't live up to his own standards. I think it's evident Sundance tries to make esports work and grow, so if you don't agree with his methods at least discuss it in a grown-up manner.
Incontrol is pretty much the most perfect definition of a hypocrite you'll ever find. He makes racist remarks about Indians, makes jokes about rape, and commits numbers of other horrendous PR mistakes and then turns around the next minute and criticizes people for doing the same. Usually when someone brings it up he'll apologize and say that he's different and then be a total asshole the next day anyway. .
Basically just perfectly pegged incontrol in one paragraph wp
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's certainly better than begging people to buy passes for an unaired, unrefined product for the sake of ESPORTS. MLG at least has a stated goal/incentive, and some history behind their work. Surely even you can't miss the irony of your statement.
You don't like losing arguments on the internet, we get it. But you really can't expect to carry this one through with any semblance of a viable argument. Ask IdrA or Tyler or any other logical forum addict you can think of. They'll tell you you're being hypocritical on this.
Anyways, I ended up getting the Gold Membership. I'm mostly watching EVO all weekend so I want the VODs, plus I decided to buy something from MLG after how well Columbus went.
oh dear! how about actually trying to sell your product to consumers like a real company does?
On July 30 2011 04:41 Leafren wrote: Isn't Incontrol the guy that's always arguing on podcasts that everyone should act professional at all times etc? I'd say comments like that don't live up to his own standards. I think it's evident Sundance tries to make esports work and grow, so if you don't agree with his methods at least discuss it in a grown-up manner.
Incontrol is pretty much the most perfect definition of a hypocrite you'll ever find. He makes racist remarks about Indians, makes jokes about rape, and commits numbers of other horrendous PR mistakes and then turns around the next minute and criticizes people for doing the same. Usually when someone brings it up he'll apologize and say that he's different and then be a total asshole the next day anyway. .
This post is an accurate reflection of my opinions. I can't believe the gall InControl has to come in here and do what he did. He accuses people of moneygrubbing when he is perhaps the MOST moneygrubbing person in the whole industry. Have we forgotten the gosucoaching debacle? What about the gosuguide? Incontrol has a history of promising big for some service, getting some money based off of his fame, and running off. And his fame is because of his non stop marketing, not because of the non-existant results he's posting.
How dare you attack MLG, and TotalBiscuit for that matter. For shame sir. You should instead look up to Sundance for being a professional businessman who follows through with his commitments instead of shirking his promises and making jokes of his blunders on podcasts.
Incontrol: At least Sundance has delivered on his promises and produced a really good product. While NASL ended up having OK moments and redeeming itself in the end no-one involved handled themselves anywhere near as well as Sundance. As Jibba pointed out there wasn't empty hype and bullshit promises like there was with the NASL. I've bought subscriptions to MLG and NASL and I regret one of them. Guess which one? Like it's been said it's absurd for you to be talking like this given your own track record.
On July 30 2011 03:09 Art_of_Kill wrote: i just say so much: event time for europe 2am - 8am, i dont see why anyone would watch let alone buy hd stream
I'm in europe, i will watch and i've bought a pass.
Same, im in europe, bought Gold Membership like month ago. If i cant watch, im just happy that i can support Esports in some way.
On July 30 2011 03:09 Art_of_Kill wrote: i just say so much: event time for europe 2am - 8am, i dont see why anyone would watch let alone buy hd stream
I'm in europe, i will watch and i've bought a pass.
Same, im in europe, bought Gold Membership like month ago. If i cant watch, im just happy that i can support Esports in some way.
Sundance did mention an expansion to Europe, So you guys will be rewarded!
On July 30 2011 05:08 iNcontroL wrote: Also threatening to lower the prizepool in response to a tweet was no good why take that route? Some random dude says 100k is too high so you say you might need ti lower the prizepool?
You think he's serious about lowering the prize pool if they don't get enough subscribers?
Sundance says dumb stuff all the time on his twitter, you of all people should know not to take it too literally.
Incontrol sold subscriptions based on a big prize. He is not a hypocrite. Sundance is selling subscriptions on the slight possibility of a big prize. I have more respect for the person saying hey we are giving 400,000 for esports buy a ticket. Than the guy saying that the 50,000 dollars is too much to spend unless you get a ton more people to buy a ticket.
I just want to say that eSports needs to progress and prize pools do make eSports bigger, if the pool goes up or down the players dont ind for the most of their money comes from sponsorship and team salary's. The incentive for a bigger prize pool actually brings in more viewers! I have been following some lower ranked SC2 tournys that have a grand prize of $75 and hardly anyone does because the pool is so low. However we all follow NASL, GSL ect all with the massive prize pools and we are all like OMG! ! ! Theres how much up for grabs! Im watching this. Sundance was right to add that incentive for viewers to up the subs, everyone is going to be telling eveyone they know OMG MLG COULD HAVE 100K PRIZE POOL! Its all about making it bigger. Its not about the money its about getting 100k subs cos that is astronomical! The viewer base keeps getting bigger eSports gets bigger everything gets bigger. Sundance simply dangled the carrot to help eSports and we need to follow and not QQ
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
I actually didn't realize that MLG 1 year gold membership is just 29,99$. That's just 20€, which is pretty much a joke. I am very tempted to put an order in, but to be fair, I am kinda put off at the idea of automatic renewal of subscription/billing unless cancelled.
If I order, pay and then cancel my subscription, will it continue to work normally for the entire duration of the "prepad" time?
Just wondering if we are unavailable to watch the games live for MLG, is there anyway to watch the VOD's later?
For example: I'm a nurse and always work when the NASL is on however when the VOD's come up the next day is when I watch all the games.
I work every time MLG is live unfortunately but would really like to purchase the gold package. Unfortunately there is no reason for me to purchase it if I'm never able to watch it live though.
I love how people want transparency, and as soon as someone is honest the community rips them to shreds haha. *I realize not everyone is being harsh, but some are* I feel like everyone is asking for one thing and expecting something different. At the end of the day, I don't see what the big deal is about what Sundance said. If you don't want to support him or his organization, don't. We shouldn't make this into more than it is.
On July 30 2011 17:36 nukeazerg wrote: Incontrol sold subscriptions based on a big prize. He is not a hypocrite. Sundance is selling subscriptions on the slight possibility of a big prize. I have more respect for the person saying hey we are giving 400,000 for esports buy a ticket. Than the guy saying that the 50,000 dollars is too much to spend unless you get a ton more people to buy a ticket.
50,000 dollars for ONE MLG. You are buying a year-long pass, for every MLG.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's certainly better than begging people to buy passes for an unaired, unrefined product for the sake of ESPORTS. MLG at least has a stated goal/incentive, and some history behind their work. Surely even you can't miss the irony of your statement.
You don't like losing arguments on the internet, we get it. But you really can't expect to carry this one through with any semblance of a viable argument. Ask IdrA or Tyler or any other logical forum addict you can think of. They'll tell you you're being hypocritical on this. Once upon a time you could criticize MLG for this or asking people to buy shirts. That time has long since passed.
Anyways, I ended up getting the Gold Membership. I'm mostly watching EVO all weekend so I want the VODs, plus I decided to buy something from MLG after how well Columbus went.
good post.
incontrol is turning into a community joke. I mean jesus christ does incontrol have a switch in his brain to govern his posting? Has he always been like this? It seems as though he has this sense of entitlement now because he played BW and hung around this scene a long time. I think his relative fame for being a comedian on a podcast and over charging derps for coaching has gone to his head. Comeback to reality incontrol or just burn out and go away, you aren't as important as you think you are.
Yeah, keep it up haters. Somehow I find it hard to believe that most of you can't see why the statement made by Sundance was a little ridiculous. iNcontroL made a fucking sarcastic comment and now he's a disgrace to SC2? Back off, it's not like he's trying to make you not buy the passes. Now thanks to all you he's laughing quietly to himself as he tries to figure out why he lost today's matches against professional gamers who've spent more time practicing than him because he was busy with NASL. It's almost like everything he does is legitimate and his reasons for doing them are obvious to anyone with the ability to critically think.
On July 30 2011 17:36 nukeazerg wrote: Incontrol sold subscriptions based on a big prize. He is not a hypocrite. Sundance is selling subscriptions on the slight possibility of a big prize. I have more respect for the person saying hey we are giving 400,000 for esports buy a ticket. Than the guy saying that the 50,000 dollars is too much to spend unless you get a ton more people to buy a ticket.
Difference of opinion I suppose, but I personally respect the people portraying eSports in a positive light more than those that do not. Sundance is attempting to sell more content as well as bigger prize pools. More content, specifically more quality content helps eSports more than a bigger prize pool. They're slowly improving, more and more. Slow and steady wins the race.
A huge prize pool may attract players but more quality content will attract sponsors which in turn directly helps players receive better contracts. Better contracts directly influences the possibility of eSports players having viable careers. Look at all the previous tournaments with huge cash prizes up to $100,000 and let me know how well they survived. Whatever MLG is doing right, which is a lot, sponsors love it. And love it or hate it making the sponsors happy makes eSports possible.
Not to mention the fact that MLG has done more than the other organization you're implying for eSports and they have done so over the course of a longer period. They were founded in 2002 and disregarding that and only accounting their time involved in StarCraft 2 they've still done more. The fact they've been involved in eSports for 9 years coupled with the fact they started during a time many people considered eSports a joke or an impossibility I would wager they do it out of passion and not just attempting to get rich like many, many other organizations that came about and died shortly after they started over the last decade.
How about you give respect to people that have earned it rather than the people that were a mouthpiece for a hype machine that fell flat on many of its promises(not discrediting them but they didn't live up to their expectations and I hope they do in the future, sooner than later.)
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Id buy a second membership if i could to also get the replays of the events
Personally, I think MLG is doing a great job. It seems they really care about the quality of their tourneys and do everything within their power to improve it. It is the biggest tourney with the largest international representation. Each one gets better. If I'm going to support any tourney it would be MLG. $30 is really not that much for a year subscription and I think people that dedicate their life to E-sports deserve to make a little money, whether it be the promoters/organizers like Sundance or the players that compete at the professional level. My measly $30 can help both parties involved so I see no reason not to support E-sports.
$30 is a very low opportunity cost, for the amount of enjoyment I will get out of this pass.
As well, Sundance's post in this thread was totally boss. Lays it out, and it makes sense.
$30... seriously. Do you want to go to one movie, and eat out for lunch once (if you're lucky), or watch 6+ events in hi-def, and know you're contributing inga measurable, meaningful way to proving that their is money in e-sports.
Yay, another thread where incontrol says something dumb and starts an argument with someone whos trying to progress the community!
If no one ever heard from incontrol again, no one would miss him and the SC2 community would be in a lot better position. All this guy constantly does is push peoples buttons and says controversial things on purpose in order to get a rise out of people for no real reason just because he wants a quick laugh and reaction from his sack riders. He does this constantly and somehow people are still suprised everytime...
How else would Incontrol stay in the spotlight if he doesn't make stupid comments all the time that piss off everyone?
MLG has quickly gave SC2 more spotlight than Halo in under a year, after years with Halo. Now he wants to raise the prize pool and someone whines about it. Just foolish, Incontrol had to of known he would get tons of attention out of it
Haha this is on the money, every time iNC comes out and makes a stupid comment he crawls back to the community tattling on about how he's sorry and it was said in the heat of the moment or some other cliche line. Getting really sick of his douchebaggery - ride everyone to support what was ultimately a shit league (somewhat redeemed by the finals) and then proceed to be a general jerk about MLG.
------------------------------
Don't worry.
Im sure that like every other time he does something stupid, he will say he regrets saying/doing that.
How big the prize pool is really doesn't concern me. However, it should concern players like Incontrol because he's a player competing for said pool. Thanks Incontrol, for being a saint who won't accept money gained from "obvious business ploys". Why don't you work towards curing world hunger while you're at it?
People point out what they think is hypocrisy in your statements, on several levels and some more mannered than others, and all you can come up with is 'wat lol'. Let's see some of that professionalism in esports you advocate so often please.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
I'm going to buy a pass because of this post. Thank you.
LOL Yea I agree with you guys this guy keeps shitting all over people. He is such a hypocrite ! Everything he disagrees with, publicly at that, so everyone can see him shit all over players, casters, organizers, mods/adminsd, and just about anyone who is remotely succesful, everything that he condemns HE HAS DONE HIMSELF !
Please incontrol either calm down, show some love to the community ( not the hypocritical '' I love the guy hes a great person blah blah blah but BAM *shits all over him* '' or the backstabbing tweets and posts ) relax, stop hating or GTFO !
Anyway, I do support MLG and I am planning on buying a pass as soon as I can, (still not 18 yet so I can't) and hope the prize pools get the increase they deserve. If the grand prize on regular events goes up from 5k to 10k or above, I am satisfied. MLG is a ridiculously high-level tournament and 5000 dollars doesn't quite feel like enough.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
I bought a pass as soon as they announced Ad Free, then found out it was also 720p, and couldn't have been happier. With this announcement, I'm tempted to buy a second membership just to watch two streams at once
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
You could easily double the prize pools for what is obviously your most popular game at this point without imposing insane ultimatums. SC2 is a breakthrough for you and making you a LOT of money that Halo/CoD never did and never would...you are being greedy.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
On July 30 2011 18:23 m2e wrote: Yay, another thread where incontrol says something dumb and starts an argument with someone whos trying to progress the community!
If no one ever heard from incontrol again, no one would miss him and the SC2 community would be in a lot better position. All this guy constantly does is push peoples buttons and says controversial things on purpose in order to get a rise out of people for no real reason just because he wants a quick laugh and reaction from his sack riders. He does this constantly and somehow people are still suprised everytime...
What you're accusing iNcontroL is doing is what you're doing. Shut up.
On July 30 2011 18:23 m2e wrote: Yay, another thread where incontrol says something dumb and starts an argument with someone whos trying to progress the community!
If no one ever heard from incontrol again, no one would miss him and the SC2 community would be in a lot better position. All this guy constantly does is push peoples buttons and says controversial things on purpose in order to get a rise out of people for no real reason just because he wants a quick laugh and reaction from his sack riders. He does this constantly and somehow people are still suprised everytime...
What you're accusing iNcontroL is doing is what you're doing. Shut up.
Tbe tournament entrance fees from starcraft alone are more than the prize pool, let alone all the stream hq purchases, I guarentee the satellite trucks costs more than the stracraft pool everytime they hire it. I guarentee the costs of flights and accomodation for the korean imports (only the four paid for by mlg) cost almost as much if not more than the entire starraft prize pool. And I bet that atleast 90% of the viewrs ESPECIALLY the hq paying ones only pay to watch starcraft, and yet with all the popluarity that starcraft 2 has brought MLG, bringing it from a small time shitty BRO XBORX HALOCOD lan to something amazing in terms of stream views and crowd, they still disrepespect the players themselves but putting up a horrific prize pool. Just look at IPL their 2nd season of an only online tournament absolutely dominates MLGs prize pool, and I understand that their overheads are lower with not having to rent large places for crowds to fit and all the electronic equipment.
I could understand for the first few tournaments when bringing in starcraft 2 was an unknown quality (really?) but now they can clearly see it crazy popular and overshadows everything else about MLG so they should respect the players who make it worth watching, (cos god kmnows the rest of it is garbage) and pay them money that actually makes it worthwhile to go. If they dont greatly increase their prize pool, and other offline tournaments spring up with better prize pools, I could see MLG going quiet real quick.
The only reaon its puplated by good players is advertising withteams getting good value in terms of advertising so it becomes worthwhile for the teams to send teir players, but for the players themselves if they had to pay their own way (especially ANY european/korean) players the "stackedness" of the tournament would drastically fall.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
i was gonna write something, then i found out someone wrote it out for me. good lookin' out, man.
I don't follow the scene as much as I used to, but it seems that EG is drawing a LOT of negative press lately. Incontrol shouldn't try to add to the bad press.
Incontrol basically said what everyone was originally thinking about this announcement (which was very vague), heck FXO Boss was even critical of this. Now that sundance came in and gave a motivational speech and suddenly everyone is up in arms against incontrol.
Particularly funny to see the reddit incontrol hate bandwagon jump on this one.
On July 30 2011 18:50 Enzyme wrote: I bought a pass as soon as they announced Ad Free, then found out it was also 720p, and couldn't have been happier. With this announcement, I'm tempted to buy a second membership just to watch two streams at once
There is the ultra stream, which I THINK is 1080, but unfortunately for me, my line tops out at ~780kB/s and the 1080 takes probably ~800, which means I get minor spikes every few seconds. Of course since I want to watch 2 streams at once I have to have one at high and one at mid =(. My brother would've bought his own membership if my household internet wasn't so bad =/.
I have to say the way Sundance announced it was not the best, and could be understood the wrong way but his post on TL explains well his reasons. He wants to know if what he is putting his time and his money is worth it. MLG has proven that they can deliver a very good product by investing a lot of money in the production. Now they have to show that they have viable business model. Do we really want companies throwing tons of money in e-sport with no viable business plan? No we want MLG to win money and keep growing, and what Sundance was saying is that if 100 000 memberships is not possible to achieve, it will probably not be possible to sustain events like MLG is doing.
TL DR: I bought my MLG gold membership, it's really cheap and it's really helping creating a good, solid base for e-sport in the west ( 30 $ for a year? lol it's like 5 beers at a pub)
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
It's certainly better than begging people to buy passes for an unaired, unrefined product for the sake of ESPORTS. MLG at least has a stated goal/incentive, and some history behind their work. Surely even you can't miss the irony of your statement.
You don't like losing arguments on the internet, we get it. But you really can't expect to carry this one through with any semblance of a viable argument. Ask IdrA or Tyler or any other logical forum addict you can think of. They'll tell you you're being hypocritical on this. Once upon a time you could criticize MLG for this or asking people to buy shirts. That time has long since passed.
Anyways, I ended up getting the Gold Membership. I'm mostly watching EVO all weekend so I want the VODs, plus I decided to buy something from MLG after how well Columbus went.
good post.
incontrol is turning into a community joke. I mean jesus christ does incontrol have a switch in his brain to govern his posting? Has he always been like this? It seems as though he has this sense of entitlement now because he played BW and hung around this scene a long time. I think his relative fame for being a comedian on a podcast and over charging derps for coaching has gone to his head. Comeback to reality incontrol or just burn out and go away, you aren't as important as you think you are.
I guess what you're trying to say is that incontrol is.... out of control.
I think that maybe we can all get along and do our best to support esports without ripping into eachother? We're all on the same side of the esports fence right guys.
So in one of the posts, Sundance mentioned that there would be something 24 live events? What exactly does that mean? While I love MLG, I think having it too often would end up hurting it by making it more diluted and less interesting, so I can't imagine they will do that... so what exactly are all these other live events? Small tournaments? Shows? Sorry if this isn't the place to ask, but I'm not sure where else to ask or look.
On July 30 2011 18:23 m2e wrote: Yay, another thread where incontrol says something dumb and starts an argument with someone whos trying to progress the community!
If no one ever heard from incontrol again, no one would miss him and the SC2 community would be in a lot better position. All this guy constantly does is push peoples buttons and says controversial things on purpose in order to get a rise out of people for no real reason just because he wants a quick laugh and reaction from his sack riders. He does this constantly and somehow people are still suprised everytime...
What you're accusing iNcontroL is doing is what you're doing. Shut up.
Not even close, but try harder. Maybe if I tried to push myself onto a community and tried to become this community figure while being a bigot, hypocrite and a passive aggresive asshole you'd have a reason to compare me to incontrol. Point being, incontrol is a person who's looking to disrupt and distract with no legitimate reason or leg to stand on and that's why people are against him. This is only the 500th time he's pulled a stunt like this in a place of public discussion and in a week's time (or less) he'll come out and apologize and let us know he was out of line, how hes going to watch what he says and how hes sorry all while people like you will soak it up and accept it. No one should be tolerating this from incontrol anymore, it's beyond dumb at this point. He does this constantly and will continue to do so just because he has a legion of fanboy's who will accept every apology no matter what he says. It's like if he has a permanent get out of jail free card just because hes been around a while and that should not be the case for anyone.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Very well said. You are the man Mr. Sundance and that post was pretty awesome imo. No bull.
That being said, I like making deals. So here is my offer. Release the replays from Anaheim and all future MLG events and I will purchase the $30.00 gold pass, as long as I'm still playing and spectating SC2, in addition to the live spectator pass I get every time yall are in Dallas.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
This is exactly how I feel also. Like I posted earlier I appreciate Sundance for coming to community sites and tweeting and interacting with the community. He shouldn't have to defend him self over everything he says. He set a goal and pointed out the obvious that if he can't meet it then he is wrong about everything he has been doing and expecting to accomplish. GL MLG I have a ticket but I damn near want to get another one now. I'm sorry that you get so much slack from some of our community for just trying to do your job.
P.S: Incontrol it is unfair of you to make Sundance out to be greedy or making threats. You of all people should know how easily things can be taken out of context and made to make you look bad. The last time I spoke to you all I got was direction to Gosucoaching.com. Whats so sad is I remember you from x17 8 years ago letting me jump in and obs games with the "gosus". Times change I guess as do people. GL either way and I still hope the best for you at MLG and for your team.
you would of thought Inctontrol would know better seeing that he was also running a very succesfull league and should know that sponsers etc only go so far... He also didnt seem to mind tyring to get people to subscribe for NASL in similar ways probably without even going into it which sundance has...
mayb just me but I have gone from likeing Incontrol and his sarcy comments before he started doing NASL, but since he started that project and others and the Demuslim spat in the forums to absolutly loathing him and the bad press he gives EG....
Do we want MLG to start scaling down or do we want a tournament which is seen by many as better then the GSL??Im glad they are up front and honest and have the same goals that many of us want to be the biggest and the best tournament in the world.
TL <3 the drama. If iccontrol is wrong in his sentiment, why not just ignore it? All you're doing with keeping this thread alive is feeding what is wrong, and what incontrol did wrong, namely overreacting. I think we can all agree MLG is giving us a great product and incontrol reacted prematurely to what was basically a less than informative tweet and more of a teaser of things that might come.
tl;dr: Shut up, stop hating and enjoy MLG.
edit: To clarify, not hating on thread topic, just all the people going completly offtopic and turning it in to a shit-throwing contest.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
Thank you for eloquently and efficiently stating what I'm sure quite a few people having been thinking.
You can disagree with Sundance's methods all you want, but at least have the decency to write up a cogent argument if you're going to chime in. Especially when you're someone who touts that prominent members of the E-Sports community should hold themselves to a higher standard. Instead we saw the forum equivalent of a child thumbing his nose and sticking his tongue out.
MLGs performance thus far has been stellar. They've proven that they're listening to the community time and time again. They've had their highs, they've had their lows. However, it's the performance during the lows that really bring out an organization's true colors. When Sundance was personally replying to numerous concerned/angry tweets from customers (even the ad-hominems) throughout the problems at MLG Dallas in the most mature fashion, you can't deny the man was giving his all.
We've clearly come a long way since then. Why don't we take the advice iNcontroL gave to people who were upset at the subpar opening of the NASL: Focus on the positive and support these guys who are doing their best to further E-Sports.
On July 30 2011 19:08 Jetaap wrote: He wants to know if what he is putting his time and his money is worth it. MLG has proven that they can deliver a very good product by investing a lot of money in the production. Now they have to show that they have viable business model. Do we really want companies throwing tons of money in e-sport with no viable business plan? No we want MLG to win money and keep growing, and what Sundance was saying is that if 100 000 memberships is not possible to achieve, it will probably not be possible to sustain events like MLG is doing.
This is foolish thinking.
If you have done work in the event management field then you would have a general idea of your:
- fixed costs/expenses/other - methods of revenue raising - ratio of prize money etc.
I can tell you from experience that MLG is making alot more than 90% of people posting on this forum potentially think.
Incontrol is correct in his thinking, though its a conflict of interest because of his work for NASL.
Ideally what you want is Transparency in MLG model which is not going to happen.
Here is a funny comparison which should get you all thinking:
Australian Lan: 1st: $8000.00 + New Computer (valued at $1700 USD) 2nd: $2000.00 + New Computer (Valued at $1700 USD) 3rd $1000.00 + Hardware valued at $400 USD
Places 4th-9th get on average $300 USD in prizes.
Entry Cost: $20.00 Total Players Participated: About 60.
It should be noted that this was not streamed anywhere, and the entry cost did not come close to covering the prize pool whatsoever.
On July 30 2011 05:36 Beyonder wrote: Haha, dont overanalyze this too much, its not needed. Silly tweet, sarcastic deserved comment. That was it :D Noone is making drama but you guys ^_^
I COMPLETELY agree...Chill Out and go troll Reddit...
Sad truth is, money talks, it doesn't talk to us fans as loudly as it talks to Sundances sponsors and so forth, and any possible investors, they want an ROI also. The more "Profit" he makes the better it is for the business on the papers, they will also ask him how much he makes, if he makes too much, they would ask him if he'd be willing to take a pay cut to increase costs and invest further in the business.
IMO wanting 100k subscribers(or even more) is an acceptable thing.
Sundance, runs his business one way, NASL runs it another way, MLG has had it's shares of problems so does NASL both also have positive points, and negative points, but that actually doesn't matter much to anyone other than the fans.
In the end it's the people who Sundance has to talk to get to invest into his own business, and here's a tiny lesson, it's better to have a business where you don't have to invest any of your money into it so you have no chance of losing money, yeah he wants your money, that's a better plan then him investing 3 million of his own dollars into it though.
What was a bad idea is obviously threatening to lower the pool, and then him saying it might not be joking, regardless of which game it is. We know he's making money back on this, but he wants to make more profit which is smart.
Sundance<3 only problem is you are too business in a public forum(Though it's public >.>, and you are a fan yourself.)
On July 30 2011 20:15 Azz wrote: Im sorry to burst everyone's bubble but...
Australian Lans have better prize pools than MLG.
You guys in the US are getting the shaft in terms of $$$ USD.
The only thing you get is the chance to go Code A or Code S.
You realize MLG for starcraft last year was very small and had a small prize pool based on participation from that? Also MLG isn't just a few guys with a ton of money to throw at a small lan, it's a company with employees. Paying for shit like the stream and the venue is expensive as hell as it is.
I'm sorry if I sound disrespectful and ignorant but 5000$ is ..yeah I'll just say it, laughable. We are talking about potentially 100k subscribers here, renting a ~3-4k square meter place for 3 days, tons of tons of computers and all the infrastructure to be able to manage this whole awesome event. But however, the event itself is beyond good, keep it up!
I think MLG set the $5000 prize pool months ago based off the cap that Blizzard put on tournaments. Maybe that was a mistake, and maybe they were just being conservative not really knowing how big this was going to get for SC2.
I think that MLG now knows they have huge product here. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now because they are giving great entertainment. I really think the tour stops will be a much larger prize pool next year.
I love you, Geoff. You put a lot of thought into what you do and are a great entertainer. You're not always filtering what you're saying though. I have backed you when you have said some of the dumbest things you could have possibly said at the moment, but this is just a step too far. Is this really coming from someone who begged us to buy HD passes for NASL? The biggest disappointment that has come out of SC2?
What gives you right to bash MLG for making an honest attempt to help you have a very extravagant life for playing a video game? Fuck, man. I even said at Columbus that if people are hating on you, you're doing something right. I was absolutely right. You hating on MLG for trying to do something great for our game is showing that they are doing something not only right, but great.
Way to bite the hand that feeds, if only because others are getting more food than you.
On July 30 2011 20:33 holycrapitsTony wrote: I love you, Geoff. You put a lot of thought into what you do and are a great entertainer. You're not always filtering what you're saying though. I have backed you when you have said some of the dumbest things you could have possibly said at the moment, but this is just a step too far. Is this really coming from someone who begged us to buy HD passes for NASL? The biggest disappointment that has come out of SC2?
What gives you right to bash MLG for making an honest attempt to help you have a very extravagant life for playing a video game? Fuck, man. I even said at Columbus that if people are hating on you, you're doing something right. I was absolutely right. You hating on MLG for trying to do something great for our game is showing that they are doing something not only right, but great.
Way to bite the hand that feeds, if only because others are getting more food than you.
Nothing new from iNcontroL. He doesn't really try to win any popularity contests with his posts.
I would much rather MLG played it the way they have done, build up a solid and sustainable tournament first and then look at prize pools later. The amount they have invested in each event really shows and I would much rather watch an MLG with excellent production, great casting in a fantastic venue with a great crowd competing for a small prize pool than watch an over hyped production nightmare with a huge prize pool.
MLG can pull crowds in like they have in Anaheim and bring in world class players from around the world to compete while not having a headline grabbing prize pool. More power to them if you ask me.
[QUOTE]On July 30 2011 19:59 LegionUK wrote: I think iNcontrol may have a point here, however I feel he has expressed himself poorly in this thread.[/Q]
Imcontrol has been fair game for trolling for a long time, and he gained a lot of new fans when state of the game was at its popularity height, but when all the drama with him leaving that and state of the game disappearing for a while him starting his own similar show with other people and sponsors and money stated appearring, I think he became basically troll target number (unfairly in my opinion) and any thread he posts in is going to get shit on from then on the only point I tried to make was that as far as ratios of money spent on an event and the money the make for that event the pro make for that event in terms of stream HQ sales, advertising revenues, merchandising and even the player entrance fees themselves MLG is clearly the lowest out of probably EVERY SINGLE TOURAMENT.
Now Im not saying that the old traditions of tournaments always being in the red as far as profits and the business side of them goes, like only managing to put up one or 2 events before the company closing down is the way they should run, and the should be congratulated for running succesfully for this long, I don't think ANYONE canput up a good argument for why for an event of its size the tournment player fee add up to more than the prize pool for the players themselves. For all the enterainment value the players put in, the time and money put in to maintaing their skills levels, the player group as a whole is BETTER OFF staying at home and keeping their money and then when you add in the costs of flight/ transportation and accomodation it becomes a joke. No doubt Some players would lose money entering this tournament even if they come in 3rd or 4th if their teams werent paying their way into the tournment, hell I cant say for sure but I wouldnt be surprised if a ppleyer coming in 2nd didnt even make a profit from that point of view.
I don't see how this can be sustainable for all the teams and players coming in from overseas, and clearly the only reason anyone is coming in from overseas is the fact that MLG itself has manged to find a good audiene and far as advertising number come in which is why it mangges o seem profitable enough for the teams to get enough exposure themselves to make it worthwhile to pay the players way. But as far as the non-salaried players go Those that dont make the top 16 (which is like what 4 of the non pool players) they will lose money just paying for their meals.
It is always reasonable for smaller tournaments, and indeed necesary for them to have fees for players to pay for computers internet set up etc, but when The competition consists of many internation superstars of the E-sport in question, why are they paying more for the "PRIVILEGE" of playing MLGs tournament than the potential payout of the whole event. I see nothing wrong with the "Hey heres randoms that want to play 75$(or whatever the actual cost is) to have the chance of getting smashed by a pro" putting in money to add to the pot but its so frustrating knowing that the players will not even see all of that money, but that the AWESOME MLG sundance will be taking that money home. Again its great that they are bringing in koreans so that MLG is actually competitive in the international starcraft 2 scene, but the fact that they spend more money on flying them in that the prize pool is an insult also. In my opinion the money should be right on the prize pool so that the prize pool itself makes the tournament worth their time and effort in competing, so thet the teams and players will spend the money themselves showing that MLG is really a worthy competition rather than buying the best players in, and if that means that the competition isn't guarenteed to have koreans playing then so be it. You can see now that some korean teams have started partnering with international teams for international teams for the money to fly them over, and even some lower level koreans pros outright trading to international teams, that the inherant advertising values of these tournaments is enough for the teams to support flying in pros its easy to see that MLG has enough money to be paying the wiiners what they are worth too.
I think in time MLG will be p[aying out much better (and more fair prize pools) but it will only be because as other and more up and coming foreign tournments find their feet in north america (Eurpoe seems to be already comping quite well in this regard with (ESL IEM Dreamhack etc) And NASL improves its broadcast quality and LIVE tournaments, perhaps IPL has a live finisher next season then perhaps more live tournaments, FXO starting their live tournments (in malaysia but you get the idea) and we know they have no problems throwing decent money at good players.
It just seems a shame that MLG so outright shames the players with pathetic pay.
On July 30 2011 20:33 holycrapitsTony wrote: I love you, Geoff. You put a lot of thought into what you do and are a great entertainer. You're not always filtering what you're saying though. I have backed you when you have said some of the dumbest things you could have possibly said at the moment, but this is just a step too far. Is this really coming from someone who begged us to buy HD passes for NASL? The biggest disappointment that has come out of SC2?
What gives you right to bash MLG for making an honest attempt to help you have a very extravagant life for playing a video game? Fuck, man. I even said at Columbus that if people are hating on you, you're doing something right. I was absolutely right. You hating on MLG for trying to do something great for our game is showing that they are doing something not only right, but great.
Way to bite the hand that feeds, if only because others are getting more food than you.
Pretty much sums it up. I don't see why there is such controversy over something that will help the players and the game we love watching. iNcontrol is being extremely hypocritical, when 3 or so months ago he was begging for people to buy NASL HD passes.
On July 30 2011 03:47 kentarre wrote: I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG.
MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize.
Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward.
Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors.
As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for.
TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools.
You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
This.
Finally someone who understands how business works.
On July 30 2011 20:15 Azz wrote: Im sorry to burst everyone's bubble but...
Australian Lans have better prize pools than MLG.
You guys in the US are getting the shaft in terms of $$$ USD.
The only thing you get is the chance to go Code A or Code S.
Sorry to tell you mate, but they prize pool in America may be smaller, but the dollar goes farther, as well.
Crazy taxes and all you pay down under...
The Australian dollar is worth more than america at the moment, and Im not quite sure what you are referring to when you say crazy taxes either? Some things are more expensive some are also cheaper, Things more expensive here are basically fast food, brand name products(nike etc), consumer electronics and video games, but not really a huge deal in my opinion consdering crime, prison population, health care, social security, job unions/labor laws, military spending, community attitudes, racism, homphobia, education etc.
I love how all the people in this thread are complaining about the prize pool when it literally doesn't affect them one little bit.
The players will still play MLG's and you will still get to watch. The prize pool, as long as it's somewhat worth playing for, is irrelevant to 99.99999% of TL. The tournament format however.....
On July 30 2011 03:47 kentarre wrote: I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG.
MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize.
Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward.
Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors.
As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for.
TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools.
You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
This.
Finally someone who understands how business works.
I think this shows that Starcraft 2 has basically revived MLG and if it wasnt for MLGs sudden amazing growth in viewers, and money going in it would probably be bankrupt by now, and MLG is paying the progamers that made it all happen a slap in the face.
On July 30 2011 19:25 Mogui wrote: TL <3 the drama. If iccontrol is wrong in his sentiment, why not just ignore it? All you're doing with keeping this thread alive is feeding what is wrong, and what incontrol did wrong, namely overreacting. I think we can all agree MLG is giving us a great product and incontrol reacted prematurely to what was basically a less than informative tweet and more of a teaser of things that might come.
tl;dr: Shut up, stop hating and enjoy MLG.
edit: To clarify, not hating on thread topic, just all the people going completly offtopic and turning it in to a shit-throwing contest.
Thanks for joining the community and within 3 posts suggesting to everyone how to behave, people are passionate about this game and the community and will say things they feel, how about you take your own advice and ignore posts you don't agree with?
On July 30 2011 03:09 Art_of_Kill wrote: i just say so much: event time for europe 2am - 8am, i dont see why anyone would watch let alone buy hd stream
I'm in europe, i will watch and i've bought a pass.
I would rather by an HD pass for NASL or IPL, that restream their content at times that I can comfortably watch.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
This, thanks Jibba
Bad week for EG indeed - Wonder what marketing walls they're gonna thrust their head into next..
Props to Sundance here. I'm a fan of the honesty and straightforwardness. I like to know what needs to be done to take things a step further with MLG (and e-sports in general) too. I'm sold.
I'm generally a fan of iNcontroL as well, but I disagree with him on this one. Geoff, what did you expect? It's business; at least it's out in the open. This stuff can't be cheap. As someone who helped run NASL, surely you know that firsthand.
On July 30 2011 03:09 Art_of_Kill wrote: i just say so much: event time for europe 2am - 8am, i dont see why anyone would watch let alone buy hd stream
I'm in europe, i will watch and i've bought a pass.
I would rather by an HD pass for NASL or IPL, that restream their content at times that I can comfortably watch.
Agree with this for this MLG times are so bad for EU. Cant complain because I know its a worldwide thing but I also cant justify buying one.
1: Kick out the console games 2: Put in LoL 3: ??? 4: Profit
It sounds harsh, but the current wave of esports are riding hard on sc2. LoL has show it can put up even better numbers. You need to get rid of the games that struggles, and focus on the ones that are actually viable.
I don't really understand why I keep getting surprised at coming to the forums and finding out iNcontroL is yet again posting outright stupid "observations" about things he knows nothing about. I wish he'd just stop polluting threads with such as he is a very popular character and can cause massive outrage with his trash often resulting in thread derailment.
I have massive respect for Sundance, and MLG. I love what they do, and I'm very thankful that there's people and organizations willing to put out their careers and lives for something as new and unstable as is esports. I don't understand how anyone can complain or resent the fact that Sundance is being very transparent about what the organization needs as a business to keep moving forward and keep enhancing and growing the experience that is MLG.
On July 30 2011 20:51 shinyA wrote: I love how all the people in this thread are complaining about the prize pool when it literally doesn't affect them one little bit.
The players will still play MLG's and you will still get to watch. The prize pool, as long as it's somewhat worth playing for, is irrelevant to 99.99999% of TL. The tournament format however.....
This is about social responsibility to players.
MLG has the lowest prize pool to profit ratio I have ever seen.
The only thing MLG has going for players is the Code A and Code S spot(s).
You can say 'Oh the publicity' but at the end of the day the money is coming out of players/teams pockets and not the tournament.
MLG is making a killing atm, and the prize pool is very poor. This is the point that is being made.
On July 30 2011 20:51 shinyA wrote: I love how all the people in this thread are complaining about the prize pool when it literally doesn't affect them one little bit.
The players will still play MLG's and you will still get to watch. The prize pool, as long as it's somewhat worth playing for, is irrelevant to 99.99999% of TL. The tournament format however.....
This is about social responsibility to players.
MLG has the lowest prize pool to profit ratio I have ever seen.
The only thing MLG has going for players is the Code A and Code S spot(s).
You can say 'Oh the publicity' but at the end of the day the money is coming out of players/teams pockets and not the tournament.
MLG is making a killing atm, and the prize pool is very poor. This is the point that is being made.
So you have some insider information on MLG income and profit margins?
On July 30 2011 20:51 shinyA wrote: I love how all the people in this thread are complaining about the prize pool when it literally doesn't affect them one little bit.
The players will still play MLG's and you will still get to watch. The prize pool, as long as it's somewhat worth playing for, is irrelevant to 99.99999% of TL. The tournament format however.....
This is about social responsibility to players.
MLG has the lowest prize pool to profit ratio I have ever seen.
The only thing MLG has going for players is the Code A and Code S spot(s).
You can say 'Oh the publicity' but at the end of the day the money is coming out of players/teams pockets and not the tournament.
MLG is making a killing atm, and the prize pool is very poor. This is the point that is being made.
MLG is not profitable. The only reason they are even afloat is venture capital which are essentially loans.
On July 30 2011 21:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Props to Sundance here. I'm a fan of the honesty and straightforwardness. I like to know what needs to be done to take things a step further with MLG (and e-sports in general) too. I'm sold.
I'm generally a fan of iNcontroL as well, but I disagree with him on this one. Geoff, what did you expect? It's business; at least it's out in the open. This stuff can't be cheap. As someone who helped run NASL, surely you know that firsthand.
Actually its VERY COST EFFICIENT to run an event like MLG with the current prize pool & revenue raising.
Incontrol is a smart bloke. You say 'at least its out in the open' .. if only you had an idea of their business model.
You can argue that they 'vaguely underestimated the potential' for this year.
If they were truly thinking of the development of esports... they would have made a move to COMPENSATE and CORRECT their prize distributions due to 'updated profit projection rates'.
At the end of the day, MLG are a business, once again the point is to make profit and with their current prize pool structure they are basically tossing a few bones to hundreds of hungry gamers.
Yes, they are developing E-sports, but not in the interest of the players monetary gains.
Hmm MLG Dallas is a complete failure, stream dies constantly and latency at the venue is downright horrible to the point where the game is near unplayable.
Sundance comes out and goes "We messed up and it's a disgrace, we are going to fix it" and proceeds to do Columbus which while it had it's hiccups, was an overall great event. Even allowing the HD stream to be previewed to everybody. Sundance then continues to work with the community and asks questions about what needs to be improved and how and has an overall positive attitude.
NASL becomes a running joke with "the audio" guy and the horrible commentating and just the amateur presentation and Incontrol cries like a baby going "If you don't support us you want Esports to fail" and continues to cry about growing pains and "learning" experiences, but never improves on any of the communities input or improves at all. The only good thing about the NASL was the Final match between MC/Puma and that sadly was it.
Hold on a second while I decide which person I want to support with my money to make "ESPORTS" grow.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
Thank you for this very informative post. Especially when only signing up for free helps MLG in any fashion, that's the least I can do even if I can't watch many of the games due to time zone stuff.
On July 30 2011 21:25 Zomodok wrote: Hmm MLG Dallas is a complete failure, stream dies constantly and latency at the venue is downright horrible to the point where the game is near unplayable.
Sundance comes out and goes "We messed up and it's a disgrace, we are going to fix it" and proceeds to do Columbus which while it had it's hiccups, was an overall great event. Even allowing the HD stream to be previewed to everybody. Sundance then continues to work with the community and asks questions about what needs to be improved and how and has an overall positive attitude.
NASL becomes a running joke with "the audio" guy and the horrible commentating and just the amateur presentation and Incontrol cries like a baby going "If you don't support us you want Esports to fail" and continues to cry about growing pains and "learning" experiences, but never improves on any of the communities input or improves at all. The only good thing about the NASL was the Final match between MC/Puma and that sadly was it.
Hold on a second while I decide which person I want to support with my money to make "ESPORTS" grow.
Interesting post, anyway take my money Sundance! The event is awesome so far. I enjoy every MLG and this one ain't an exception.
I don't see the problem everyone have with MLG's prize pool. MLG is doing the right thing, spending money to have perfect event rather than spending all its cash to boast the prize pool.
Sirscoot himself criticized Riot games for spending tons of money on prizes instead of actually making the game esports friendly. NASL has huge prize pool, but with subpar experience for the viewers.
MLG/Dreamhack ect on the otherhand focus on the event itself rather than just having huge prize pool to draw the audience. Which method do you think will be sustainable in the end?
On July 30 2011 21:35 Nayl wrote: I don't see the problem everyone have with MLG's prize pool. MLG is doing the right thing, spending money to have perfect event rather than spending all its cash to boast the prize pool.
Sirscoot himself criticized Riot games for spending tons of money on prizes instead of actually making the game esports friendly. NASL has huge prize pool, but with subpar experience for the viewers.
MLG/Dreamhack ect on the otherhand focus on the event itself rather than just having huge prize pool to draw the audience. Which method do you think will be sustainable in the end?
The best tournament to date is probably the HDH 1.
If only they could have done the HDH2 with the new prize pool.
On July 30 2011 21:35 Nayl wrote: I don't see the problem everyone have with MLG's prize pool. MLG is doing the right thing, spending money to have perfect event rather than spending all its cash to boast the prize pool.
Sirscoot himself criticized Riot games for spending tons of money on prizes instead of actually making the game esports friendly. NASL has huge prize pool, but with subpar experience for the viewers.
MLG/Dreamhack ect on the otherhand focus on the event itself rather than just having huge prize pool to draw the audience. Which method do you think will be sustainable in the end?
The best tournament to date is probably the HDH 1.
If only they could have done the HDH2 with the new prize pool.
What makes you say that? While HDH1 was certainly good for its time, we've had a lot more tournaments with better production/game/casts.
On July 30 2011 21:35 Nayl wrote: I don't see the problem everyone have with MLG's prize pool. MLG is doing the right thing, spending money to have perfect event rather than spending all its cash to boast the prize pool.
Sirscoot himself criticized Riot games for spending tons of money on prizes instead of actually making the game esports friendly. NASL has huge prize pool, but with subpar experience for the viewers.
MLG/Dreamhack ect on the otherhand focus on the event itself rather than just having huge prize pool to draw the audience. Which method do you think will be sustainable in the end?
The best tournament to date is probably the HDH 1.
If only they could have done the HDH2 with the new prize pool.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
woah, huge post. big respect, you're getting my money even though i can't always watch MLG.
MLG is not profitable. The only reason they are even afloat is venture capital which are essentially loans.
Sure it is, explain why its not profitable?
Explain to me why you assume it is. If it were this easy to make a profit on these types of events we would see a lot more of them. And that without even looked at the actual facts that we know.
On July 30 2011 21:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Props to Sundance here. I'm a fan of the honesty and straightforwardness. I like to know what needs to be done to take things a step further with MLG (and e-sports in general) too. I'm sold.
I'm generally a fan of iNcontroL as well, but I disagree with him on this one. Geoff, what did you expect? It's business; at least it's out in the open. This stuff can't be cheap. As someone who helped run NASL, surely you know that firsthand.
Actually its VERY COST EFFICIENT to run an event like MLG with the current prize pool & revenue raising.
Incontrol is a smart bloke. You say 'at least its out in the open' .. if only you had an idea of their business model.
You can argue that they 'vaguely underestimated the potential' for this year.
If they were truly thinking of the development of esports... they would have made a move to COMPENSATE and CORRECT their prize distributions due to 'updated profit projection rates'.
At the end of the day, MLG are a business, once again the point is to make profit and with their current prize pool structure they are basically tossing a few bones to hundreds of hungry gamers.
Yes, they are developing E-sports, but not in the interest of the players monetary gains.
Prove it. Break down the expenditures and revenues, since you seem to think you know so much about MLG's financials. Demonstrate how cost efficient it is to run an event like MLG through facts, not mere claims...which is all you're sharing at the moment. Show your math.
On July 30 2011 21:25 Zomodok wrote: Hmm MLG Dallas is a complete failure, stream dies constantly and latency at the venue is downright horrible to the point where the game is near unplayable.
Sundance comes out and goes "We messed up and it's a disgrace, we are going to fix it" and proceeds to do Columbus which while it had it's hiccups, was an overall great event. Even allowing the HD stream to be previewed to everybody. Sundance then continues to work with the community and asks questions about what needs to be improved and how and has an overall positive attitude.
NASL becomes a running joke with "the audio" guy and the horrible commentating and just the amateur presentation and Incontrol cries like a baby going "If you don't support us you want Esports to fail" and continues to cry about growing pains and "learning" experiences, but never improves on any of the communities input or improves at all. The only good thing about the NASL was the Final match between MC/Puma and that sadly was it.
Hold on a second while I decide which person I want to support with my money to make "ESPORTS" grow.
lol
1. Did you watch any games past idrA vs. Boxer? 2. The stream was perferct, I was running 1 Ultra quality stream and 1 midquality stream on the dual-stream page with the hotkeys, switching those streams as fast as Losira on that keyboard man
Don't blame MLG on your horrible internet - Try go look at the livereport threads, I promise you, if there was people that were having issues, you would notice right away!
So, Sundance is basically trying to guilt us into buying HD stream now? No thanks. He might as well say "If you don't buy MLG passes you're killing ESPORTS!"
I do wish people would stop talking about business models and revenue as if they have any idea what-so-ever. If they come out and publically state how they make money and how much they make then you can act like an expert. In the mean time, call it what it is: ill-informed speculation.
It's great how Sundance is constantly trying to increase the prize pool, however this particular criteria is kind of dodgy. Membership sales is not the only form of financing MLG has. What about sponsorships, ad revenue, ticket/pass sales? By making membership sales the bottom line of whether the prize money will increase or decrease, seems questionable and full of ulterior motives.
Why Sundance? Is MLG losing sponsors? Is the venue/trucks costing too much? Venture capitalists backing out? All this twitter announcement does is make things even cloudier for me.
On July 30 2011 03:47 kentarre wrote: I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG.
MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize.
Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward.
Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors.
As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for.
TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools.
You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
This.
Finally someone who understands how business works.
I think this shows that Starcraft 2 has basically revived MLG and if it wasnt for MLGs sudden amazing growth in viewers, and money going in it would probably be bankrupt by now, and MLG is paying the progamers that made it all happen a slap in the face.
Let's not delude ourselves, it's a symbiotic relationship between two entities. One wouldn't grow much without the other, but that's a different issue.
It's not a slap in the face - anyone who has any business acumen would know/can imagine the short term losses MLG had to take to turn things around from Dallas to Columbus. Last i heard, satellite trucks don't come cheap, not to mention the free HQ streams over the second part of the tourney. And that's just two things, i'm sure there are many facets that were tweaked/introduced to make it the experience it was at Columbus.
Kentarre in his post above pretty much outlines the major points: and the point isn't really about sustaining it, but expanding it. I see the MLG-Esports audience relationship as a give and take one: they've given and we've taken. Now it's our turn to give back.
On July 30 2011 21:35 Nayl wrote: I don't see the problem everyone have with MLG's prize pool. MLG is doing the right thing, spending money to have perfect event rather than spending all its cash to boast the prize pool.
Sirscoot himself criticized Riot games for spending tons of money on prizes instead of actually making the game esports friendly. NASL has huge prize pool, but with subpar experience for the viewers.
MLG/Dreamhack ect on the otherhand focus on the event itself rather than just having huge prize pool to draw the audience. Which method do you think will be sustainable in the end?
The best tournament to date is probably the HDH 1.
If only they could have done the HDH2 with the new prize pool.
LOL, you've got some interesting views on things, I think you're young and not experienced in business at all
Economics 101. there's a difference between revenue and profit, many businesses plan to become profitable after 4-7 years whilst growing during that period you have to re-invest your revenue into the business.
Almost every company for example in silicon valley grows the way that MLG have, by steadily increasing their customer base and diluting their equity via venture capital investment, the VC people make their money if and when the business that they have invested in floats and becomes a publicly traded company or is acquired by another company.
I bought a pass because I'm interested in the VODs, and even if I wouldn't be killing ESPORTS if I hadn't done it, atleast now I'm sure that I've done my part in supporting it.
Does anybody know how much running the streams and whatnot costs? I`m assuming its a lot. While I think they should raise the prize pool no matter what, I do like the incentive he is putting out. I really wish I knew what kind of money that required though. You have to take into account other expenses, venues, computers, employee salary (chairs). But going to mlg cost about 60 bucks weather its to watch or compete. Plus the thirty dollars for a year to the stream. I dont think its farfetched to say that Mlg is making a boatload, but it also isnt far fetched that they are barely getting by.
On July 30 2011 21:25 Zomodok wrote: Hmm MLG Dallas is a complete failure, stream dies constantly and latency at the venue is downright horrible to the point where the game is near unplayable.
Sundance comes out and goes "We messed up and it's a disgrace, we are going to fix it" and proceeds to do Columbus which while it had it's hiccups, was an overall great event. Even allowing the HD stream to be previewed to everybody. Sundance then continues to work with the community and asks questions about what needs to be improved and how and has an overall positive attitude.
NASL becomes a running joke with "the audio" guy and the horrible commentating and just the amateur presentation and Incontrol cries like a baby going "If you don't support us you want Esports to fail" and continues to cry about growing pains and "learning" experiences, but never improves on any of the communities input or improves at all. The only good thing about the NASL was the Final match between MC/Puma and that sadly was it.
Hold on a second while I decide which person I want to support with my money to make "ESPORTS" grow.
lol
1. Did you watch any games past idrA vs. Boxer? 2. The stream was perferct, I was running 1 Ultra quality stream and 1 midquality stream on the dual-stream page with the hotkeys, switching those streams as fast as Losira on that keyboard man
Don't blame MLG on your horrible internet - Try go look at the livereport threads, I promise you, if there was people that were having issues, you would notice right away!
Did you read the guys post past the first sentence? You do know MLG Dallas was the one two MLG's ago right? He is on the side of MLG in his post, saying that Sundance got things together after the failings in Dallas, and compares it to NASL who never really fixed anything in a timely manner.
On July 30 2011 21:53 W2 wrote: It's great how Sundance is constantly trying to increase the prize pool, however this particular criteria is kind of dodgy. Membership sales is not the only form of financing MLG has. What about sponsorships, ad revenue, ticket/pass sales? By making membership sales the bottom line of whether the prize money will increase or decrease, seems questionable and full of ulterior motives.
Why Sundance? Is MLG losing sponsors? Is the venue/trucks costing too much? Venture capitalists backing out? All this twitter announcement does is make things even cloudier for me.
Because being able to go to a sponsor and say "We have 100,000 people that have paid $30 to sign up for a whole year of membership" is a big deal. This shows that you not only have consumers but you have return consumers.
These are subscriptions, not once off events where someone watches an MLG, hates it, and then doesn't watch the next one. 100,000 members guarantees not only that 100,000 people will be watching MLG each time it comes around, but that there are 100,000 people that have already shown they have the capacity to spend money on gaming related things. As such, they are the perfect targets for sponsors who want to sell products. If you want to pull sponsors you need to show your viewers can be converted to sales, having 1 billion viewers is worthless if they have no spending potential.
On July 30 2011 21:25 Zomodok wrote: Hmm MLG Dallas is a complete failure, stream dies constantly and latency at the venue is downright horrible to the point where the game is near unplayable.
Sundance comes out and goes "We messed up and it's a disgrace, we are going to fix it" and proceeds to do Columbus which while it had it's hiccups, was an overall great event. Even allowing the HD stream to be previewed to everybody. Sundance then continues to work with the community and asks questions about what needs to be improved and how and has an overall positive attitude.
NASL becomes a running joke with "the audio" guy and the horrible commentating and just the amateur presentation and Incontrol cries like a baby going "If you don't support us you want Esports to fail" and continues to cry about growing pains and "learning" experiences, but never improves on any of the communities input or improves at all. The only good thing about the NASL was the Final match between MC/Puma and that sadly was it.
Hold on a second while I decide which person I want to support with my money to make "ESPORTS" grow.
lol
1. Did you watch any games past idrA vs. Boxer? 2. The stream was perferct, I was running 1 Ultra quality stream and 1 midquality stream on the dual-stream page with the hotkeys, switching those streams as fast as Losira on that keyboard man
Don't blame MLG on your horrible internet - Try go look at the livereport threads, I promise you, if there was people that were having issues, you would notice right away!
Did you read the guys post past the first sentence? You do know MLG Dallas was the one two MLG's ago right? He is on the side of MLG in his post, saying that Sundance got things together after the failings in Dallas, and compares it to NASL who never really fixed anything in a timely manner.
True - I somehow read his opening sentence as Anaheim
Look how much money has been spent by teams on their players, including those just coming to the open bracket.
Look at the quality of the games and atmosphere.
What compulsion is there for MLG to change anything? This tournament and scene is epic with only 5k for first place - if you increase that by a factor of 10 would any of the above become better 10 times? I doubt it - they are already amazing.
It seems to me the only logic in raising the prize pool is to make it mesh in with the serious/proffessional/hyped atmosphere of the whole tournament. I.e - "we have epic players and scale, but the prize pool looks a bit silly being so low", but there is no business sense in raising it. Therefore I think Sundance is doing a good thing
Also, surely Incontrol should be preparing and focusing on starcraft 2, not on his next internet argument?
On July 30 2011 21:53 W2 wrote: It's great how Sundance is constantly trying to increase the prize pool, however this particular criteria is kind of dodgy. Membership sales is not the only form of financing MLG has. What about sponsorships, ad revenue, ticket/pass sales? By making membership sales the bottom line of whether the prize money will increase or decrease, seems questionable and full of ulterior motives.
Why Sundance? Is MLG losing sponsors? Is the venue/trucks costing too much? Venture capitalists backing out? All this twitter announcement does is make things even cloudier for me.
I'm going to venture to say that ticket/pass sales barely (or not at all) cover renting out convention centers, paying admins and moving stuff from venue to venue. That stuff is expensive.
As far as sponsorships and advertising go, its a sellers market at the moment. There is an insane amount of ad space to be filled in a plethora of media. Coupled with most major companies cutting back marketing budgets at this time, I feel we may be overestimating the amount of money that MLG can generate from sponsorship and adspace.
Having the 100,000 subs for MLG memberships would prove to these venture capitalists, who are the ONLY people keeping MLG afloat at the moment, that the demographic that MLG is appealing to ie 16-36 year old gaming males, are willing to provide a solid revenue base on which MLG can give consistent, dependable revenue. The entire esports industry, every bit of it is precariously in the hands of sponsors - as far as I can see it makes up the majority of revenue for nearly ever major organisation.
Sundance is simply laying out the facts. He scaled up massively to accomodate SC2. New staff, new stream, more players, more commentators, satellite trucks.....that stuff all costs money. Lots of money. He bet on SC2 providing a foundation on which to grow MLG into a sustainable business, not one looking for handouts from venture capitalists and sponsors, rather one that has its own customer base that pays real money for the content it produces.
That content is more than worth the tiny price per day you pay for gold.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
Geoff "InCOntrol" RObinson AND The Former Toronto BLue Jays General Manager J.P. Ricciardi
What do J.P. Ricciardi and Geoff "InCOntrol" RObinson have in common you might ask?
In 2001 JP Ricciardi was hired as General Manager of the Toronto Blue Jays. He was not always honest in his dealing with employees, colleagues, and fans right from his first day on the job. In the beginning the lying and half-truths seemed to be tolerated. There was the occasional "zealot" of a Blue Jay fan who hated JP Ricciardi's constant half-truths and occasional outright lies. But, they were basicallly ignored and JP Ricciardi did a nice job covering up his dishonest tracks. As the years went on and lie after lie piled up. And, dubious incident and "scandal" piled up. During 2008, Seemingly over night JP Ricciardi (from a public relations stand point) became thoroughly hated by all. He was doing just as much lying and deceit in 2008 as he did from 2001 to 2007. What happened was that a CRITICAL MASS of dubious events piled up so that the queit, sober thinking, basically optimistic Toronto Blue Jays fan finally decided Ricciardi was a complete fraud.
In watching Geoff Robinson get absolutely buried on this forum board for what I'd call meagre infractions or slightly deceptive actions I think he is experiencing the same thing J.P. Ricciardi did as General Manager of the Toronto Blue Jays in 2008.
It seems to me Geoff "inControl" Robinson is a bit of a bullshitter. His plans often don't work out and they end up costing the SC2-consumer a few bucks here or there. But, he is not some master charlaton robbing "the community" of millions. But man.. is he hated ....
Based on what I've seen of his actions he is slightly underhanded... and a bit of liar. But, I got news for the 15 year olds on this forum. MOST ADULTS ARE LIARS. Geoff is a bit of a bullshitter with a high profile whose every word gets magnified because of his profile.
I'd say 20% of the TL.Net members are "bullshit more" in their lives than Robinson does in his. its his high profile that is killing him. And, we've now built up a CRITICAL MASS of dishonest deeds and now the mob appears to be circling.
I get the feeling if InControl were in a Protoss mirror against Satin that most of TL.Net would be cheering on the devil.
MLG is no different than all those venture-capital fueled "internet" societies that blossomed during the nineties. Their strategy was to offer an internet-based service, and to monetize the generated traffic on a second moment.
Most companies (all those you never heard about) failed at the first stage of this plan, trying to seduce a large user base. it happens also in e-sports. Remember 2009? Remember the Championship Gaming Series getting shut down? That’s what happens when you are making losses and you fail to secure more venture capital to keep going until the next year (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/sports/othersports/02video.html ). Under Matthew Bromberg leadership, MLG obtained a sizeable chump of capital from investors, and even managed to turn a small profit in 2009 (same source). Note that this means they were working in the red for 2006-2008.
It seems they had two options, slow organic growth, securing the small cash revenue they had obtained, as Bromberg wanted, or a more ambitious strategy –based in SC2 as we know now- like Sundance wanted. Bromberg left MLG and Sundace become their new CEO. Some months later, we learnt they got another 10 millions in venture capital, in December 2010: http://www.venturecapitalupdate.com/company/12/26/major-league-gaming.html
It seems pretty obvious that since 2010, MLG decided to invest a lot of money of their events, and on a new game: SC2, to increase hugely their viewership. We can be pretty certain that since 2010, they are working again in the red, and the disaster of their event in Dallas and the measures they took to appease the uproar put them probably in the deep deep red. Therefore, either they achieve to monetize –fast- the traffic they are obtaining, through ads and pay-per-view, or they fold, downsize or die.
This is a huge business, with 46 millions invested since 2006. Ask yourselves, how much money do you think the investors had gained since 2006? What’s the expected Return on Investment (ROI) for a business like this one? For a risky start-up, it should be at least around a compounded ROI of 15%...
People in here are too used to the “everything is free” culture of the internet. They are forgetting how heavy the fixed costs are for content- providers: a convention center for several days, streaming as much date as the superbowl (and believe me, this shit is expensive), the salaries for all the people working there, all this stuff adds up and explains why they are in the red. People keep saying MLG has the lowest profit to prizes ratio of all tournaments. I kindly ask them to shut the fuck up. You don’t have their financial reports. Period. And all the information we have points to the same conclusion, 2010 was a “bad year”.
I’m not without critics towards Sundance. I do believe he thinks SC2 this year, and probably LoL next year, are cash cows. I also believe he should give more money to the players because the cost structure of SC2 doesn’t work the same way than Halo. In Halo, they have huge expenses because they nurture the entire progamer userbase. In SC2, these expenses are paid by the teams. Therefore, they could find some money for the SC2 players. At least, we can say that E-sports work just like sports. Of course, athletes can win a fortune, but their salaries are just small fraction of the money generated by the sports. This is capitalism and how it work (and you can hate it for it), but salaries and prizes will always be an adjustment variable of costs, especially if you can have the same good players for a prize of 10000 dollars or for 100000 dollars. As a side note, this is way athletes unionize.
So, MLG needs your money? Yes.
Is this going to help the players? Marginally, but it will please the investors a lot.
If they don’t monetize the traffic generated, will they downsize or close? Probably, nobody likes to lose millions a year.
And a last question, is E-sports a bubble? I don’t know, but I think so. What I’m sure about is that even if Sundance is right, a lot of the new structures (NASL for sure) will fold in the next two years just because this is a competitive business.
_____
Wanted to post this as a blog, but i couldn't find the button? I feel like such a noob
On July 29 2011 14:30 ChrysaliS_ wrote: Did the free stream ever even top 100k viewers for Columbus? Seems to be a pretty ridiculous benchmark.
He never mentioned anything about sc2 on his tweet so I'd assume it's for all games? And they did mention something like a 500k unique visitors or a figure like that on live on 3 over the weekend
I feel like I got $29 worth out of just MLG Columbus to be completely honest. I went straight to the MLG site and purchased the gold membership after reading this.
If my $29 can help you attract the best players in the world to your tournament I am very happy to chip in. So far this year you guys have proven that you are listening to the community and doing whatever it takes to produce a high quality product.
Definitely worth $29 for me as a viewer, and if that money helps the prize pool out for the players, fuck yeah. If there are more events next year maybe one will be close enough for me to go in person.
On July 29 2011 14:30 ChrysaliS_ wrote: Did the free stream ever even top 100k viewers for Columbus? Seems to be a pretty ridiculous benchmark.
He never mentioned anything about sc2 on his tweet so I'd assume it's for all games? And they did mention something like a 500k unique visitors or a figure like that on live on 3 over the weekend
Should we be expected to support other games if all we really want to watch is Starcraft? It seems sort of unreasonable.
On July 29 2011 14:30 ChrysaliS_ wrote: Did the free stream ever even top 100k viewers for Columbus? Seems to be a pretty ridiculous benchmark.
He never mentioned anything about sc2 on his tweet so I'd assume it's for all games? And they did mention something like a 500k unique visitors or a figure like that on live on 3 over the weekend
Should we be expected to support other games if all we really want to watch is Starcraft? It seems sort of unreasonable.
I never said that, I'm just saying that the 100k number isn't that unlikely since it isn't just the sc community that counts towards it.
And yes, you are supporting other games as much as other game's communities are supporting sc if you aim for that figure.
On July 30 2011 22:23 legaton wrote: MLG is no different than all those venture-capital fueled "internet" societies that blossomed during the nineties. Their strategy was to offer an internet-based service, and to monetize the generated traffic on a second moment.
Most companies (all those you never heard about) failed at the first stage of this plan, trying to seduce a large user base. it happens also in e-sports. Remember 2009? Remember the Championship Gaming Series getting shut down? That’s what happens when you are making losses and you fail to secure more venture capital to keep going until the next year (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/sports/othersports/02video.html ). Under Matthew Bromberg leadership, MLG obtained a sizeable chump of capital from investors, and even managed to turn a small profit in 2009 (same source). Note that this means they were working in the red for 2006-2008.
It seems they had two options, slow organic growth, securing the small cash revenue they had obtained, as Bromberg wanted, or a more ambitious strategy –based in SC2 as we know now- like Sundance wanted. Bromberg left MLG and Sundace become their new CEO. Some months later, we learnt they got another 10 millions in venture capital, in December 2010: http://www.venturecapitalupdate.com/company/12/26/major-league-gaming.html
It seems pretty obvious that since 2010, MLG decided to invest a lot of money of their events, and on a new game: SC2, to increase hugely their viewership. We can be pretty certain that since 2010, they are working again in the red, and the disaster of their event in Dallas and the measures they took to appease the uproar put them probably in the deep deep red. Therefore, either they achieve to monetize –fast- the traffic they are obtaining, through ads and pay-per-view, or they fold, downsize or die.
This is a huge business, with 46 millions invested since 2006. Ask yourselves, how much money do you think the investors had gained since 2006? What’s the expected Return on Investment (ROI) for a business like this one? For a risky start-up, it should be at least around a compounded ROI of 15%...
People in here are too used to the “everything is free” culture of the internet. They are forgetting how heavy the fixed costs are for content- providers: a convention center for several days, streaming as much date as the superbowl (and believe me, this shit is expensive), the salaries for all the people working there, all this stuff adds up and explains why they are in the red. People keep saying MLG has the lowest profit to prizes ratio of all tournaments. I kindly ask them to shut the fuck up. You don’t have their financial reports. Period. And all the information we have points to the same conclusion, 2010 was a “bad year”.
I’m not without critics towards Sundance. I do believe he thinks SC2 this year, and probably LoL next year, are cash cows. I also believe he should give more money to the players because the cost structure of SC2 doesn’t work the same way than Halo. In Halo, they have huge expenses because they nurture the entire progamer userbase. In SC2, these expenses are paid by the teams. Therefore, they could find some money for the SC2 players. At least, we can say that E-sports work just like sports. Of course, athletes can win a fortune, but their salaries are just small fraction of the money generated by the sports. This is capitalism and how it work (and you can hate it for it), but salaries and prizes will always be an adjustment variable of costs, especially if you can have the same good players for a prize of 10000 dollars or for 100000 dollars. As a side note, this is way athletes unionize.
So, MLG needs your money? Yes.
Is this going to help the players? Marginally, but it will please the investors a lot.
If they don’t monetize the traffic generated, will they downsize or close? Probably, nobody likes to lose millions a year.
And a last question, is E-sports a bubble? I don’t know, but I think so. What I’m sure about is that even if Sundance is right, a lot of the new structures (NASL for sure) will fold in the next two years just because this is a competitive business.
_____
Wanted to post this as a blog, but i couldn't find the button? I feel like such a noob
This is a brilliant post and everyone in this thread needs to read it.
If they don’t monetize the traffic generated, will they downsize or close? Probably, nobody likes to lose millions a year.
This is the most important part. This is why they are introducing the memberships.
ESPORTS in the west (or America at least, ESL seems to be hanging in their somehow) has been nothing but a glorious failure so far because no one has been able to safely monetize their product due to an unwillingness to pay and also poor product.
MLG have the product now no doubt, but whether than can break the culture of entitledness is another question altogether.
On July 30 2011 21:53 W2 wrote: It's great how Sundance is constantly trying to increase the prize pool, however this particular criteria is kind of dodgy. Membership sales is not the only form of financing MLG has. What about sponsorships, ad revenue, ticket/pass sales? By making membership sales the bottom line of whether the prize money will increase or decrease, seems questionable and full of ulterior motives.
Why Sundance? Is MLG losing sponsors? Is the venue/trucks costing too much? Venture capitalists backing out? All this twitter announcement does is make things even cloudier for me.
Why is everyone attacking anyone who dares to question anything about MLG or Sundance saying "WHERES YOUR MATH, PROVE TO ME THAT MLG IS MAKING A PROFIT" I don't think that anyone at this point is arguing that MLG is not a great tournament as far as the crowd, stream view number, casting, or the gameplay itself is going, we have see na lot of great games at the various MLGs and it has been plagued with problems some of them their fault whether it be because they have not anticipated the growth, their internet setups and whatever but it has clearly been getting better.
Everyone is demanding numbers to show that MLG is making a profit knowing that MLG has never given these numbers out somehow expecting that to totally destroy any comment that disagress with them but yet noone seems to have put out a legitimate point about anything I have said in my rational posts.
1. MLGs tournament registration fees paid by the players (or more likely their teams) is more than the total prize pool of the starcraft 2 tournament.
Now compare this to every other major tournament why does MLG demand more to enter their tournament than EVERY OTHER TOURNAMENT, and yet not even give all that money back to the players, meaning the player community as a whole loses out in the end. Also most large tournaments as in those not run by local LAN centres don't actually cost anything at all to enter. Now I can kind of understand this for the BYOC open bracket part of the tournament (where many pros still find themselves fighting teir way in) but why does MLG feel the need to make money from the pros themselves, who are the people providing all the entertainment.
2. Starcraft 2 provides most of the most of the stream viewers and buyers, LIVE specatators, and yet does not receive nearly as much prize money as halo and COD ( no CLEAR numbers but it wouldnt be unfair to say 70-80% considering MLGs growth since it added Starcraft 2
People saying that Halo and COD have teams and the individual players in Starcraft 2 make more, but consider the number of players in the Starcraft 2 scene coming in from overseas compared to Halo and COD and the amount of money from their team sponsors in terms of flights, accomodation team houses training and salaries (for the very few lucky enough) and therefore the higher skill levels involved with most real competitive Starcraft 2 pros in the tourny playing full time whereas COD Halo pros, are really amateurs not playing the game fulltime. Why are the teams and players eating the cost of bringing all the players together, consdering for those coming in from overseas, only perhaps the top2 places coming in from overseas would make a profit from their tournament wins ( now we know that the players likely didnt pay themselves it was their teams but the point stands ) 3. The ratio of tournament size in terms of viewers, including stream, live spectators and total prize pools pales in comparison to similar tournaments such as Dreamhack, GSL, IEM
This is fairly straightforward. 4. MLG spends what could be close to or even over the total prize pool of the tournment in bring over and accomodating korean players to play.
Now I see no problem with this in order to advertise the tournament to koreans and has worked to get some teams to bring over players, but it sets a weird precedent, especially as far as how the players are selected, I mean top 4 at MLG get invites to korea, but its not the top4 in GSL that get invited to MLG and why? Because they probably wouldnt want to go because the prize money is much too small, they would be better off preparing for the next gsl by far. I mean the first lot was good, but at this point wouldnt the tournament be better served by having the prize pool upped to $20,000, so that perhaps the tournament could stand on its own 2 feet and have koreans actually want to come over for more than just novelty
I just find it hilarious that IPL can spend 50k on an online only tournament and feel that its great for them and they average around 5 thousand viewers and make money only off free vieweradvertising as far as I know and are planning to do many more, which is enough prize money for 3 MLGs, so clearly MLG is speanding A LOT of money on the MLGs but the players themselves, who do far more work in terms of training, preparation, why would they put their best games in to a tournament where if they play to the best of their abilities and manage to plough through their groups or open brackets of 256 or whatever they can hope to get a small chunk of $14k, whereas IPL can bring them a chunk of $50k or the online European tournaments like 1k euros a week or whatever. How can MLG justify spening such a small ratio of their huge budgets. (The satellite trucks im sure cost about the Starcraft 2 prize pool to hire for the 3 days, and yet those in IT know that satellite internet only provides decent download speeds and not upload, so if the main internet does go down the satellite truck isn't going to provide much better performance than a couple of 3g mobile phones.
Its sad also to see Azz get shut down as a troll just for questioning the practices of a tourney, not the tourney itself which we have seen provide many good games, just the fact that the players do not see nearly enough money for the work they put in.
On July 30 2011 21:53 W2 wrote: It's great how Sundance is constantly trying to increase the prize pool, however this particular criteria is kind of dodgy. Membership sales is not the only form of financing MLG has. What about sponsorships, ad revenue, ticket/pass sales? By making membership sales the bottom line of whether the prize money will increase or decrease, seems questionable and full of ulterior motives.
Why Sundance? Is MLG losing sponsors? Is the venue/trucks costing too much? Venture capitalists backing out? All this twitter announcement does is make things even cloudier for me.
I'm going to venture to say that ticket/pass sales barely (or not at all) cover renting out convention centers, paying admins and moving stuff from venue to venue. That stuff is expensive.
As far as sponsorships and advertising go, its a sellers market at the moment. There is an insane amount of ad space to be filled in a plethora of media. Coupled with most major companies cutting back marketing budgets at this time, I feel we may be overestimating the amount of money that MLG can generate from sponsorship and adspace.
Having the 100,000 subs for MLG memberships would prove to these venture capitalists, who are the ONLY people keeping MLG afloat at the moment, that the demographic that MLG is appealing to ie 16-36 year old gaming males, are willing to provide a solid revenue base on which MLG can give consistent, dependable revenue. The entire esports industry, every bit of it is precariously in the hands of sponsors - as far as I can see it makes up the majority of revenue for nearly ever major organisation.
Sundance is simply laying out the facts. He scaled up massively to accomodate SC2. New staff, new stream, more players, more commentators, satellite trucks.....that stuff all costs money. Lots of money. He bet on SC2 providing a foundation on which to grow MLG into a sustainable business, not one looking for handouts from venture capitalists and sponsors, rather one that has its own customer base that pays real money for the content it produces.
That content is more than worth the tiny price per day you pay for gold.
Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. Only Sundance knows, we are left to speculate. Which goes back to my first post... We are getting pressured to help out the players/MLG but we don't know anything about MLG's finances.
Yes "simply laying out the facts" is a phrase with good connotations but it is not really applicable here. He laid out one fact, all the other facts are hidden in some MLG treasury book.
Yes I agree with everyone saying MLG has provided great games and the HQ stream is worth paying for, but eventually the players are going to realise they are worth MUCH more than a $5000 top prize, and will be taking their talents elsewhere. I mean Huk is the Top earning non-southkorean, something like 8th-10th total, and he earnt like $34k since either release or beta im note sure but thats like a year or 18 months. People want Esports to be like real sports and for the hardcore training he puts in I would like to see him earn a lot more than $34k a year, Im sure he gets a salary from liquid as well, and I doubt he pays for his place in the OGS house, not that its a mansion, sharing a room with like 3-5 players in bunk beds isnt awesome either but that korea more than anything else but I doubt his salary is much.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Watch incontrol apologize.
Or maybe he already did and give an other BS reason for saying things like this.
Classic Incontrol.
Honestly, I used to like him, but I'm sick and tired of the bullshit he tries to pull on us, pretending he's not a hypocrite while criticizing MLG at every chance he has.
On July 30 2011 21:53 W2 wrote: It's great how Sundance is constantly trying to increase the prize pool, however this particular criteria is kind of dodgy. Membership sales is not the only form of financing MLG has. What about sponsorships, ad revenue, ticket/pass sales? By making membership sales the bottom line of whether the prize money will increase or decrease, seems questionable and full of ulterior motives.
Why Sundance? Is MLG losing sponsors? Is the venue/trucks costing too much? Venture capitalists backing out? All this twitter announcement does is make things even cloudier for me.
I'm going to venture to say that ticket/pass sales barely (or not at all) cover renting out convention centers, paying admins and moving stuff from venue to venue. That stuff is expensive.
As far as sponsorships and advertising go, its a sellers market at the moment. There is an insane amount of ad space to be filled in a plethora of media. Coupled with most major companies cutting back marketing budgets at this time, I feel we may be overestimating the amount of money that MLG can generate from sponsorship and adspace.
Having the 100,000 subs for MLG memberships would prove to these venture capitalists, who are the ONLY people keeping MLG afloat at the moment, that the demographic that MLG is appealing to ie 16-36 year old gaming males, are willing to provide a solid revenue base on which MLG can give consistent, dependable revenue. The entire esports industry, every bit of it is precariously in the hands of sponsors - as far as I can see it makes up the majority of revenue for nearly ever major organisation.
Sundance is simply laying out the facts. He scaled up massively to accomodate SC2. New staff, new stream, more players, more commentators, satellite trucks.....that stuff all costs money. Lots of money. He bet on SC2 providing a foundation on which to grow MLG into a sustainable business, not one looking for handouts from venture capitalists and sponsors, rather one that has its own customer base that pays real money for the content it produces.
That content is more than worth the tiny price per day you pay for gold.
Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. Only Sundance knows, we are left to speculate. Which goes back to my first post... We are getting pressured to help out the players/MLG but we don't know anything about MLG's finances.
Yes "simply laying out the facts" is a phrase with good connotations but it is not really applicable here. He laid out one fact, all the other facts are hidden in some MLG treasury book.
The funny thing is you say we are left to speculate but from reading this thread you are "just trolling" if you attempt any argument other than the great hero Sundance's and if you want to say anything other than MLG has koreans playing in it therefore they pay enough and they are losing money but still paying out a whole $5000 to the winner wow what a hero, you get bombardments of SHOW ME THE MLG SPREADSHEETS, WHERES THE PROOF MR MLG ACCOUNTANT
ESPORTS in the west (or America at least, ESL seems to be hanging in their somehow) has been nothing but a glorious failure so far because no one has been able to safely monetize their product due to an unwillingness to pay and also poor product.
MLG have the product now no doubt, but whether than can break the culture of entitledness is another question altogether.
Here's the thing though. If the NFL or NBA asked me to pay 30 bucks a year for a "membership" I'd not even consider it, even if they were at serious risk of folding if their fans didn't buy them. I'm happy to watch ads and have even uninstalled ad blocker specifically because I watch streams frequently and don't want to screw them over. Is this "entitled?" I dunno, maybe. What I do know is that the other sports I grew watching have never asked me to by a membership that their business potentially depends on. Watching this sort of thing is fun escapism, and I enjoy it, but hell, I don't even pay for CABLE anymore. The point is, my willingness to pay to watch things in general is fairly low, and if it comes down to it, I'll just do without. Its up to them to find a viable business model, its not up to me to artificially keep them afloat.
Meh, this motivated me to buy a membership, but their automatic email system seems to be down, So I cannot activate my created account and therefor can not buy a pass
Will all the money go into the prize pool? If not where will it go? Give a break down of what you currently get off ads and why you need this and maybe i ll get an upgrade.
ESPORTS in the west (or America at least, ESL seems to be hanging in their somehow) has been nothing but a glorious failure so far because no one has been able to safely monetize their product due to an unwillingness to pay and also poor product.
MLG have the product now no doubt, but whether than can break the culture of entitledness is another question altogether.
Here's the thing though. If the NFL or NBA asked me to pay 30 bucks a year for a "membership" I'd not even consider it, even if they were at serious risk of folding if their fans didn't buy them. I'm happy to watch ads and have even uninstalled ad blocker specifically because I watch streams frequently and don't want to screw them over. Is this "entitled?" I dunno, maybe. What I do know is that the other sports I grew watching have never asked me to by a membership that their business potentially depends on. Watching this sort of thing is fun escapism, and I enjoy it, but hell, I don't even pay for CABLE anymore. The point is, my willingness to pay to watch things in general is fairly low, and if it comes down to it, I'll just do without. Its up to them to find a viable business model, its not up to me to artificially keep them afloat.
You cannot compare NFL/NBA to MLG. They both do offer memberships, those huge comprehensive packages for all games. Specific teams have packages as well, if you so wish. But your talking about leagues who have massive TV station backing, firms who bid insane amounts of money just show these events on their channels. They have nearly ~50 years of infrastructure, legal framework, huge industries at their backs.
MLG on the other hand is offering almost comparable content, from a production point of view to the NBA or whatever. I don't think MLG, even as it is now, would be out of place if it were broadcast on some network or hell, even its own network. Plus, the NBA/NFL do not pay costs for hosting each separate game, renting out stadiums all over the country, everyday of the week, no the teams handle that. MLG does EVERTHING on its on dime.
I'll just do without. Its up to them to find a viable business model, its not up to me to artificially keep them afloat
Thing is, they are artificially afloat ALREADY, propped up by unsustainable venture capital and unreliable ad revenue. This is MLG trying to solidify their revenue streams.
Obviously, not everyone is going to pay, but there does have to be a bit more willingness for the community to pay.
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Well it would be cool to see how close we actually are to this goal. If we are at ten thousand than this is quite unrealistic. You do realize you will draw more people and hype if you raise the prize pool right? I mean if I am going to someone who knows nothing about the game and am like "oh watch this competition with me they are playing for 5k" Response: "meh" vs "watch this epic competition with me where the winner gets 50k" Response: "Holy shit man, thats almost as much as i make in a year, let me check that out, must be for real." Kind of a joke currently is all.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
You sir, have just earned your business another $30 Without a doubt MLG is the most exciting and professional Starcraft 2 tournament in North America, and is one of the best in the world. I'll do my part to support that.
I would take everything Sundance says with a grain of salt. He's trying to stir up some capital. Which is fine. But given I've heard they are planning to up it to 12 shows next year, and expand to European shows is as pretty solid statement. With the cost of going overseas and giving out 6 extra prize pools, I find it pretty hard to believe that MLG is as strapped for cash as Sundance makes it out to be.
I support the guy and MLG, I have a gold membership. I think Sundance knows how to run a company, but his PR skills are somewhat lacking. I seriously doubt anything will come of this one way or the other. Whether Sundance wants to admit it or not, Starcraft 2 put MLG on the map, As a hardcore gamer all my life I was only vaguely aware of MLG (from ESPN coverage) until it started broadcasting SC2. I think he knows that SC2 will be an enormous part of his revenue and success in the future. The odds of him alienating the fans and players by reducing the prizepool while keeping Halo prizepools high is pretty slim.
what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record.
And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz.
MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit.
Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2.
You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
Oh shit. Jibba: 2 Incontrol: 0
This is making me seriously consider buying a membership
People need to think about this logically. I can't really think of many pro players off the top of my head who aren't going to MLG Anaheim. The prize money is the motivation for them to come to the tournament. The current level is working just fine.
They aren't just going to increase prize money because people ask for it. They are a business and need an economic reason to do so. That reason does not exist.
If Geoff Robinson isnt in the spotlight or the White Knight of esports, defender of the community, then he has to step into it somehow with smartass remarks and act like he is the mightiest person in the community. The only problem is, it seems smug and jealous; also--- wasnt he supposed to leave NASL to focus on being a better player? and lied about it?. Incontrol you are not the hero you think you are; you are a smug condescending subpar player and commentator.
EDIT: Geoff is criticizing sundance for doing something (in an arguably more open and honmest fashion) that he did for NASL!!! After telling everyone that buiying a NASL subscription will "further esports and blah blah blah" you delivered a trashy excuse for a tournament, possibly the worst tournament that has come around recently, only saved by the great grand finals (which you should have let tastosis cast because you are shit)
On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote: what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote: what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct?
I really dont give a crap about the prizepool. As long as the games and the event is great you dont hear me complain Btw...Evo is amazing too..for those with an interest in fighting games
On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote: what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct?
The point he is making is that the vast majority of the money they are bringing in comes from having SC2 and having great players participating. Rewarding those players with a substantial prize pool, unlike the embarrassing ones of present, seems like it should be a priority regardless of the subscriptions. If that isn't possible, then maybe they in fact do need to close their doors.
Anybody who has any chance of placing in the money for MLG hasn't paid a cent to be there. They were flown out by teams. Most teams, from what I understand, don't take significant cuts from the prize money that players win. Players don't make their living off of prize money, it's from sponsorships and team salaries. So the real question is whether a bonus of $5k is enough for players to spend a weekend playing in the tournament, and the answer is clearly yes.
There is also the incentive of earning rank points to get a good seed in the national championship, which is incredibly important (and has a $50k first place prize).
MLG is not making money hand over fist. They are probably losing money considering they have had to invest significantly in technology and staff they didn't budget for at the beginning of the year. The more memberships they have, the more returning customers they have, which looks better for sponsors.
I guarantee you MLG's business strategy is not to make money while stiffing the players. Higher prize pools look better for sponsors also and draw in more viewers. It will also be necessary as more tournaments with higher prize pools spring up.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
In this case he is making a fool of himself. But in the next case he is probably right. He has an opinion, right or wrong.
Remember SotG where he criticized Destiny for using words that didn't represent Esports well? --> On TL.net forums Incontrol is the biggest Troll. He just has to troll.
I don't even think he means what he writes. I don't know.
On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote: what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct?
If they get zero paid subscribers for the event the event will still take place. They got money from sponsors. The extra viewers that pay money to watch the stream is all bonus money profit and whatever else they add to the event, so if they're reaching out to the communities to make more $ shouldn't most of that be flooded into the event and not into their pockets.
As much as I hate to do it, I will have to agree with Geoffs remark. "Pay us more money, and we will possibly pay out more in prizes!" <-- Wtf? Even though incontrol is a smug and hypocritical bully, he is right about the stupidity of this statement.
On July 31 2011 00:35 FunnyPicture wrote: Wow, major shitstorm incoming on Reddit.
As much as I hate to do it, I will have to agree with Geoffs remark. "Pay us more money, and we will possibly pay out more in prizes!" <-- Wtf? Even though incontrol is a smug and hypocritical bully, he is right about the stupidity of this statement.
wait, I'm confused.. You agree with geoff that what he(Geoff) said was stupid?
On July 30 2011 23:50 hdan wrote: They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You do realize that its not just Starcraft 2 that MLG is supporting, but Halo Reach and Call of Duty: Black Ops?
The total prize pool for the entire year over all 3 games and all events is ~$806,000 dollars. The final event alone, SC2 has a $120,000 dollar prize pool. Black Ops actually has a $140,000 prize pool but since that is split per person SC2 has a higher capita per player.
$30 for 6 events, is a $5 pass for each event.
If you compare it to the GSL Code S, that is a direct competitive amount. GSL Code S is 7 events per year totaling in ~$830,000 total prize money. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190136 . Yes that is for 1 game, however the intent of each league is the same. To promote a competitive eSports environment, to do that in the West you need to also appeal to the FPS crowd which is what MLG has done.
On July 31 2011 00:35 FunnyPicture wrote: Wow, major shitstorm incoming on Reddit.
As much as I hate to do it, I will have to agree with Geoffs remark. "Pay us more money, and we will possibly pay out more in prizes!" <-- Wtf? Even though incontrol is a smug and hypocritical bully, he is right about the stupidity of this statement.
wait, I'm confused.. You agree with geoff that what he(Geoff) said was stupid?
he(Sundance MLG) The quoted portion is mimicking of Sundance.
On July 31 2011 00:35 FunnyPicture wrote: Wow, major shitstorm incoming on Reddit.
As much as I hate to do it, I will have to agree with Geoffs remark. "Pay us more money, and we will possibly pay out more in prizes!" <-- Wtf? Even though incontrol is a smug and hypocritical bully, he is right about the stupidity of this statement.
I don't see the issue, you have to be deluded to think otherwise. If MLG gets a higher income they can increase the prize pool. Did you really need Sundance to tell you that?
On July 31 2011 00:48 s4life wrote: MLG should disclose their finances ... Let's see how much of what they earn goes to prize money. IMHO not too much
League stability has to be priority, and a way to impress the sponsors to invest more in the league ( MLG Membership), which would mean high prize pool and more events.
On July 31 2011 00:35 FunnyPicture wrote: Wow, major shitstorm incoming on Reddit.
As much as I hate to do it, I will have to agree with Geoffs remark. "Pay us more money, and we will possibly pay out more in prizes!" <-- Wtf? Even though incontrol is a smug and hypocritical bully, he is right about the stupidity of this statement.
I don't see the issue, you have to be deluded to think otherwise. If MLG gets a higher income they can increase the prize pool. Did you really need Sundance to tell you that?
Exactly. This is why it is a stupid statement, it is only stating the obvious. Money goes in, prizes come out. You can't explain that!
On July 31 2011 00:35 FunnyPicture wrote: Wow, major shitstorm incoming on Reddit.
As much as I hate to do it, I will have to agree with Geoffs remark. "Pay us more money, and we will possibly pay out more in prizes!" <-- Wtf? Even though incontrol is a smug and hypocritical bully, he is right about the stupidity of this statement.
I don't see the issue, you have to be deluded to think otherwise. If MLG gets a higher income they can increase the prize pool. Did you really need Sundance to tell you that?
Exactly. This is why it is a stupid statement, it is only stating the obvious. Money goes in, prizes come out. You can't explain that!
thank you sir for making laugh at 1:52am, while waiting for MLG day 2 to start.
On July 31 2011 00:48 s4life wrote: MLG should disclose their finances ... Let's see how much of what they earn goes to prize money. IMHO not too much
League stability has to be priority, and a way to impress the sponsors to invest more in the league ( MLG Membership), which would mean high prize pool and more events.
Nice logic right there, the way to create a stable business is to increase your expenses. Or perhaps the better way is controlled sustainable growth.
incontroll is becoming a dick. First he posts that thing about TB now about MLG. And ingame his "manner" is just to much: "Hey GG and the best of luck in the rest of the tournament"
i have a theory that incontrol is just a troll in a fat suit and after he gets us to really buy into his identity as a mediocre antagonistic "progamer" he'll pop out from the fat suit like a butterfly emerging from a cocoon. and it will be CombatEx
thats pretty funny how directly hypocritical that makes incontrol sound lol. regardless of whether or not inc is a hypocrite doesnt change the fact that hes right in this circumstance though. 0.2% or whatever of their budget into prize pool seems rather weak.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
If paid subscribers are going to make or break MLG, then shouldn't you be negotiating with the larger source of money... the sponsors. They are the ones who turned on the light switch when there was no money right? I personally will pay, don't really have time to watch live, glad you now have VODs, glad someone got the message that if you're going to run an event in three days you should probably have two streams for SC2, but I just see this as a guise to line the pockets of the company, not refueling MLG/esports.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
On July 30 2011 02:16 Assirra wrote: Just buy the frigin membership. If you don't want to contribute to esports then don't, leave the community and stop complaining.
LOL its not religion we are talking about or charity. Supporting e-sports doesn't necessarily mean throwing money at it. Its got to have enough appeal for me to buy anything.
Last time I checked MLG made 16 million dollars profit, so sorry if I'm not too eager to give him more money.
I think this was a pretty bad statement by sundance. It makes him come off as disengenious. If you do the math hes asking for 3 million so he can afford to increase a prizepool of 14k. No surprise that some people took it badly. What he really means (I hope) is that MLG's financial state of affairs is probably not that great, I wouldn't be surprised if they had been running in the red for years, I never even heard of MLG till last year. So yeah he needs 3 million, because he has to pay his debts before he can increase the prizepool, not because the prizepool is a big part of MLG's budget. Or maybe he really is just a greedy asshole, who knows, MLG's finances aren't public.
On July 30 2011 02:16 Assirra wrote: Just buy the frigin membership. If you don't want to contribute to esports then don't, leave the community and stop complaining.
LOL its not religion we are talking about or charity. Supporting e-sports doesn't necessarily mean throwing money at it. Its got to have enough appeal for me to buy anything.
Last time I checked MLG made 16 million dollars profit, so sorry if I'm not too eager to give him more money.
On July 30 2011 02:16 Assirra wrote: Just buy the frigin membership. If you don't want to contribute to esports then don't, leave the community and stop complaining.
LOL its not religion we are talking about or charity. Supporting e-sports doesn't necessarily mean throwing money at it. Its got to have enough appeal for me to buy anything.
Last time I checked MLG made 16 million dollars profit, so sorry if I'm not too eager to give him more money.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success?
You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale.
Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends.
Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Your post just convinced me to purchase a full-on membership. Thank you for what you are doing for eSports and fuck what guys like Incontrol are doing to try and bring you down.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
pretty classy when an organizer of TSL3 NASL openly criticizes another league! Grow up Ken Geoff.
Technically Geoff isn't the organizer and he it's associated with it anymore.
I dunno man. Preferential treatment when picking the casters, the players and employing his girlfriend would strongly indicate that he is. Geoff defending NASL and attacking other tournament's organizer's and then claiming he isnt associated with NASL is a shameless act only a fool will believe. There is a reason even lowest tier lottery employees(for example) arent allowed to play in the lottery. Geoff is one of NASL organizers. Period.
On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote: what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct?
Thanks to the other people that finally understood the point I was trying to make, but in the mean time, you do realise that $14k is less than 0.5% of $3mil
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
pretty classy when an organizer of TSL3 NASL openly criticizes another league! Grow up Ken Geoff.
Technically Geoff isn't the organizer and he it's associated with it anymore.
I dunno man. Preferential treatment when picking the casters, the players and employing his girlfriend would strongly indicate that he is. Geoff defending NASL and attacking other tournament's organizer's and then claiming he isnt associated with NASL is a shameless act only a fool will believe. There is a reason even lowest tier lottery employees(for example) arent allowed to play in the lottery. Geoff is one of NASL organizers. Period.
On July 30 2011 07:32 Nemireck wrote: inControl said in an earlier post that Sundance should have simply asked people to "Buy MLG subscriptions to support e-sports!". Bullshit. It's too vague, provides no practical reason for purchasing the sub, and really, why should we "support e-sports" to begin with?
"Buy passes to support the players and allow us to run bigger and better events." That's something I can buy into. Sundance has asked us to buy tickets, and given us a reason why we should. It's a basic business strategy because it WORKS. Look at the new NHL team in Winnipeg. Betman said "We need to sell 11000 season tickets to make this a worthwhile venture, prove to us that you deserve this team." And in within 3 days, they'd hit that goal. Do you think they would have done so well if Betman had just said "Buy season tickets to support your team!!!" HELL NO!
Sundance, keep doing what you're doing man. It's clear that you have a vision, and strategy in place to reach that goal. If you don't succeed, no one will ever be able to say it's due to a lack of effort.
I almost wanna print this, frame it and put it on my wall because Nemireck fucking gets it and nailed it without typing a wall of text. This made it worthwhile reading this thread.
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
pretty classy when an organizer of TSL3 NASL openly criticizes another league! Grow up Ken Geoff.
Technically Geoff isn't the organizer and he it's associated with it anymore.
I dunno man. Preferential treatment when picking the casters, the players and employing his girlfriend would strongly indicate that he is. Geoff defending NASL and attacking other tournament's organizer's and then claiming he isnt associated with NASL is a shameless act only a fool will believe. There is a reason even lowest tier lottery employees(for example) arent allowed to play in the lottery. Geoff is one of NASL organizers. Period.
No I'm not/wasn't lol
dealing in handshake agreements doesn't cancel out the obvious. You've confused your demographic i think, nobody here watches Fox news.
quit putting lol after you try to defend your statements. no one cares. you suck at sc2 and are a shit caster. You shouldnt have put down TB or made that statement and you shouldnt be such a condescending dick.
On July 31 2011 01:26 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh my comment wasn't trying to bring him down lol
This just in, Inc deals a major blow to society, apparently after many people got upset with him over his comment, he clearly tells us that he only meant to insult Sundance as a way to bringing him up, what a classy fellow!
In other news, pigs are flying in New Mexico? It's more likely than you think! Tune in at 11!
Conspiracy theories only make you sound dumber your evidence for me being involved in the decision making id laughable. Did you know Anna is about to be hired by several organizations I don't deal with? Odd... She's a girl right? Only way she Can get a job in esports is through me eh? Not the case. But I am wasting my time with you. You have always been a hater who gives nothing back. Keep at it bro!
On July 31 2011 01:34 iNcontroL wrote: Conspiracy theories only make you sound dumber your evidence for me being involved in the decision making id laughable. Did you know Anna is about to be hired by several organizations I don't deal with? Odd... She's a girl right? Only way she Can get a job in esports is through me eh? Not the case. But I am wasting my time with you. You have always been a hater who gives nothing back. Keep at it bro!
On July 30 2011 23:50 hdan wrote: They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You do realize that its not just Starcraft 2 that MLG is supporting, but Halo Reach and Call of Duty: Black Ops?
The total prize pool for the entire year over all 3 games and all events is ~$806,000 dollars. The final event alone, SC2 has a $120,000 dollar prize pool. Black Ops actually has a $140,000 prize pool but since that is split per person SC2 has a higher capita per player.
$30 for 6 events, is a $5 pass for each event.
If you compare it to the GSL Code S, that is a direct competitive amount. GSL Code S is 7 events per year totaling in ~$830,000 total prize money. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190136 . Yes that is for 1 game, however the intent of each league is the same. To promote a competitive eSports environment, to do that in the West you need to also appeal to the FPS crowd which is what MLG has done.
I realise all those things, but do you realise what MLG was before the release of starcraft 2? IT was barely afloat, and since incorporating starcraft 2 attendance has exploded and paid subscriptions have gone nuts and I wouldnt be surprised if starcraft 2 was resposible for 80% if not more of the income for the entire event, also the costs associated with bringing in primarily american Halo/COD teams vs International Starcraft 2 players are huge, meaning if not for the team paying their flights, how many Starcraft international pros would actually come to MLG for the prize money... Maybe 1 or 2 if they were sure they would get top2 I would guess, all it means is that the players themselves are being denied the prize money they are worth and their teams have to eat even more costs to provide for them
On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote: what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct?
Thanks to the other people that finally understood the point I was trying to make, but in the mean time, you do realise that $14k is less than 0.5% of $3mil
What my post said was that SC2 prize money wasn't their only expense. As has been stated many times previously in this thread, MLG's total prize pool (for all of their games, not just SC2) is over $800,000. That 14k you brought up is the prize pool from one event from one of their games. The subscriptions to MLG gold are to finance an entire year of events, not just a single event.
Why the hell is this thread all about incontrol, he made one dumb twitter who cares, shouldnt the issue actually be about whether you think the players all gathered at this MLG who (once their tournament entry fees are included) have a prize pool of less than $0?
On July 31 2011 01:34 iNcontroL wrote: Conspiracy theories only make you sound dumber your evidence for me being involved in the decision making id laughable. Did you know Anna is about to be hired by several organizations I don't deal with? Odd... She's a girl right? Only way she Can get a job in esports is through me eh? Not the case. But I am wasting my time with you. You have always been a hater who gives nothing back. Keep at it bro!
See, you just can't stop with the double standards. You hate on Sundance, you hate on MLG, hate on Slasher or whomever, i've lost track of how many people you pick up beef with. And i'm somehow a hater for pointing the finger at your hating?
On July 30 2011 05:26 Domination wrote: Incontrol, the man who hyped NASL as the greatest thing since sliced bread and how we need to support it with our wallets, is mad at another man's "business ploy". Not sure what to say about that but I am certainly entertained.
Not sure why hyping nasl means i cannot be critical of other leagues. When i encouraged people to support nasl I said so we can do more of them... Not to raise the prizepool. Read syndances post... He essentially meant to say "so we can do more mlgs" not anything about the prizepool.
pretty classy when an organizer of TSL3 NASL openly criticizes another league! Grow up Ken Geoff.
Technically Geoff isn't the organizer and he it's associated with it anymore.
I dunno man. Preferential treatment when picking the casters, the players and employing his girlfriend would strongly indicate that he is. Geoff defending NASL and attacking other tournament's organizer's and then claiming he isnt associated with NASL is a shameless act only a fool will believe. There is a reason even lowest tier lottery employees(for example) arent allowed to play in the lottery. Geoff is one of NASL organizers. Period.
well said. incontrol should look in the mirror before he comments on another league. NASL was a flop minus the grand finals and he has the nerve to make a comment like that.. t_t for incontrol, he just keeps losing respect :/
On July 31 2011 01:34 iNcontroL wrote: Odd... She's a girl right?
When you start to resort to borderline misogyny to prove your point, I think it's time to rethink your post before submitting it.
iNcontroL, seeing as you were critical of TB taking all of the money he raises and putting it directly to the prize pool (totally transparent) and you're critical of Sundance making an (admittedly obvious) statement that if he sells more memberships he can raise the prize pool, how do you suggest promoters/league heads promote their league/increase prize pools? What should they tell the community?
Damn it Inc, why did you think your comment was necessary, knowing your stature within the community? Even if you intended for your comment to be taken in jest, you have to had known that people would have taken it in the wrong way and 'drama' would have started. IMO it's the least of your problems you have to deal with!
On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote: HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that?
HSC 3 clearly has substantially less overhead than an MLG event. They may also be paying a higher percentage of the money they raise into the prize pool, but it's pretty obvious that it's not totally fair to compare the two events because of the huge difference in production costs, etc.
Dude now your just acting like a child, cant we keep a single topic on subject anymore?
Prize pool increase is a good thing and needed. I'm not afraid to invest $30 a year into something i believe in and enjoy.
I know that, but how is this any different than what he is doing? He is acting like a petty little kid who just can't have his way 100% of the time. His post was, ridiculous, arrogant and childish. I look forward to seeing him yet again apologize for his comments at a later date.
On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote: what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct?
Thanks to the other people that finally understood the point I was trying to make, but in the mean time, you do realise that $14k is less than 0.5% of $3mil
What my post said was that SC2 prize money wasn't their only expense. As has been stated many times previously in this thread, MLG's total prize pool (for all of their games, not just SC2) is over $800,000. That 14k you brought up is the prize pool from one event from one of their games. The subscriptions to MLG gold are to finance an entire year of events, not just a single event.
Yes well you would hope that the subscriptions werent the only money that comes in to MLG too I was just trying to make a point about the ratio of money required to be spent on MLG stuff by us in order to increase the prizes earned by the players, you know supporting eSports and players etc. So for every $10 you spend on MLG merch, streams etc maybe 50c will go to the starcraft players themselves. Maybe, of course noone has exact numbers at all, So who knows. I think that the quality of games has been fantastic at MLG and the quality of the event has been steadily getting better I never questioned that I just think the players deserve better prizes and that compared to all other international tournaments MLG winners are drastically underpaid comparitively.
How about just answer this, do you think it is fair that the players are asked to pay more to enter the tournament than they give out in prize pool?
Do you think it is fair that MLG spends more money on bringing in 2 Code S players and a Code A player and a Code B player from Korea than the prize pool available, especially considering that many european teams eat the cost of sending their players over despite how small the prizes are for the actual players.
Do you think that Starcraft is responsible for more than 30% of the various income (about what they gets with COD and Halo taking the other 70%) MLG gets.. whether through streams payments advertising whatever.
My point is for all the fantastic games they are playing all the hard training they put in and the costs the teams themselves have to eat with entry fees flights and accomodation the players dont get enough money.
While everybody is throwing out unsubstantiated theories: iNcontroL and Sundance intentionally created drama in this thread to make sure it got noticed as much as possible.
On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote: HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that?
HSC was mainly based on volunteers for admin etc. HSC had not had to rent a venue. HSC only had a SC2 tournament. Those are some of the things, that make MLG need to have more money to put out the same or more money as a prize pool.
On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote: HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that?
HSC was mainly based on volunteers for admin etc. HSC had not had to rent a venue. HSC only had a SC2 tournament. Those are some of the things, that make MLG need to have more money to put out the same or more money as a prize pool.
If MLG is losing money on venues then they are doing it wrong. Between gate and concessions they should be making a nice profit. HSC didn't have these revenue streams, so it actually hurt them in a sense.
On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote: HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that?
HSC 3 clearly has substantially less overhead than an MLG event. They may also be paying a higher percentage of the money they raise into the prize pool, but it's pretty obvious that it's not totally fair to compare the two events because of the huge difference in production costs, etc.
It also means if you actually want to support the players themselves more than the corporations that exist to make money from their performances, you should buy streams and make donations to smaller lans like homestory, especially considering the quality of the games and commentary we saw with the last one.
On July 31 2011 01:48 MarKeD wrote: While everybody is throwing out unsubstantiated theories: iNcontroL and Sundance intentionally created drama in this thread to make sure it got noticed as much as possible.
well that's what happened. People went i hate incontrol im gonna buy memberships.
On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote: HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that?
HSC was mainly based on volunteers for admin etc. HSC had not had to rent a venue. HSC only had a SC2 tournament. Those are some of the things, that make MLG need to have more money to put out the same or more money as a prize pool.
If MLG is losing money on venues then they are doing it wrong. Between gate and concessions they should be making a nice profit. HSC didn't have these revenue streams, so it actually hurt them in a sense.
MLG probably were in the negative for the first few years of operation.
At this point it feels like we (the enigmatic "esports") are reaching a critical mass of sheer numbers to really be a "business" anyway. It's not if someone will get rich off it, it's just a matter of who will. I don't know enough about business at all, but its sure that money is the worlds loudest voice when trying to be recognized by those who know nothing about what the Sc2/TL.net community is. I'm still on the wall about deciding to "buy in" to all of it because money is thin for me. I will cast my vote with my time and tune in and watch national guard ads for you Sundance.
On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote: what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct?
Thanks to the other people that finally understood the point I was trying to make, but in the mean time, you do realise that $14k is less than 0.5% of $3mil
What my post said was that SC2 prize money wasn't their only expense. As has been stated many times previously in this thread, MLG's total prize pool (for all of their games, not just SC2) is over $800,000. That 14k you brought up is the prize pool from one event from one of their games. The subscriptions to MLG gold are to finance an entire year of events, not just a single event.
Yes well you would hope that the subscriptions werent the only money that comes in to MLG too I was just trying to make a point about the ratio of money required to be spent on MLG stuff by us in order to increase the prizes earned by the players, you know supporting eSports and players etc. So for every $10 you spend on MLG merch, streams etc maybe 50c will go to the starcraft players themselves. Maybe, of course noone has exact numbers at all, So who knows. I think that the quality of games has been fantastic at MLG and the quality of the event has been steadily getting better I never questioned that I just think the players deserve better prizes and that compared to all other international tournaments MLG winners are drastically underpaid comparitively.
How about just answer this, do you think it is fair that the players are asked to pay more to enter the tournament than they give out in prize pool?
Do you think it is fair that MLG spends more money on bringing in 2 Code S players and a Code A player and a Code B player from Korea than the prize pool available, especially considering that many european teams eat the cost of sending their players over despite how small the prizes are for the actual players.
Do you think that Starcraft is responsible for more than 30% of the various income (about what they gets with COD and Halo taking the other 70%) MLG gets.. whether through streams payments advertising whatever.
My point is for all the fantastic games they are playing all the hard training they put in and the costs the teams themselves have to eat with entry fees flights and accomodation the players dont get enough money.
Lets Calculate, Its 70$? dollars to enter?(or is it 80? anyways) so each tournament they take in 70x 256 (pool players dont pay) = 17920 or 80x256 = 20480
this is for starcraft alone.
wach event they give out...14000? but what no one is discussing is the national championship where their handing out..(100,000? or more im not sure.)
so if during 6 events they make:
6x80x256 = 122880
and they give out
5x14000 + 100,000 = 190,000
where do you come up with " they dont give out everything the players pay in" They said the circuit events were lower prize pool BECAUSE of the big national championship.
Sundance has ALSO said, he would like to increase circuit events both in prize pool, as well as number of them next year.
I just think the claims of "you don't even pay the players back their entrance" is ludicris, and had to prove it wrong.
I just think its funny how sundance makes it out to seem that MLG can't be supported unless they have 100,000 subscriptions...which means maybe they should be looking at the various views for each game and cut the fat...not to mention the world recession.....I mean there are about a million different things that can affect them and he basically creates fear mongering saying "if we don't get these numbers we aren't sustainable and we'll have to reduce the prize money"
What the hell is this thread even? one page criticizing the move, the other praising sundance, the next talking about incontrol's gf, then 2 ridiculous comparisons of HSC and MLG, then back to incontrol's "apparent" hating.
This is ridiculous. Worst than LR threads when idra loses a game to his own negligence!
As far as this thread goes, its survival of the fittest. If MLG refuses to raise the prize pool unless 100,000 people sign up, there is plenty of other tournaments people are willing to go to and they probably would prefer them over tournaments which barely cover their flight/rent cost if they take 1st place! Don't halo/CoD players get massive prize pools because of it being a team game? Its time to cut costs then if Sc2 brings in more viewers(considering its main stage) with less demanding prize pools.
On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote: HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that?
Because HSC 3 is one event hosted in a guys house whereas MLG has many events and has to pay for 100s of pcs and rent out buildings.
On July 31 2011 01:34 iNcontroL wrote: Conspiracy theories only make you sound dumber your evidence for me being involved in the decision making id laughable. Did you know Anna is about to be hired by several organizations I don't deal with? Odd... She's a girl right? Only way she Can get a job in esports is through me eh? Not the case. But I am wasting my time with you. You have always been a hater who gives nothing back. Keep at it bro!
Keep digging that hole of yours buddy. Should of stopped after the first line.
On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote: what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct?
Thanks to the other people that finally understood the point I was trying to make, but in the mean time, you do realise that $14k is less than 0.5% of $3mil
What my post said was that SC2 prize money wasn't their only expense. As has been stated many times previously in this thread, MLG's total prize pool (for all of their games, not just SC2) is over $800,000. That 14k you brought up is the prize pool from one event from one of their games. The subscriptions to MLG gold are to finance an entire year of events, not just a single event.
Yes well you would hope that the subscriptions werent the only money that comes in to MLG too I was just trying to make a point about the ratio of money required to be spent on MLG stuff by us in order to increase the prizes earned by the players, you know supporting eSports and players etc. So for every $10 you spend on MLG merch, streams etc maybe 50c will go to the starcraft players themselves. Maybe, of course noone has exact numbers at all, So who knows. I think that the quality of games has been fantastic at MLG and the quality of the event has been steadily getting better I never questioned that I just think the players deserve better prizes and that compared to all other international tournaments MLG winners are drastically underpaid comparitively.
How about just answer this, do you think it is fair that the players are asked to pay more to enter the tournament than they give out in prize pool?
Do you think it is fair that MLG spends more money on bringing in 2 Code S players and a Code A player and a Code B player from Korea than the prize pool available, especially considering that many european teams eat the cost of sending their players over despite how small the prizes are for the actual players.
Do you think that Starcraft is responsible for more than 30% of the various income (about what they gets with COD and Halo taking the other 70%) MLG gets.. whether through streams payments advertising whatever.
My point is for all the fantastic games they are playing all the hard training they put in and the costs the teams themselves have to eat with entry fees flights and accomodation the players dont get enough money.
Lets Calculate, Its 70$? dollars to enter?(or is it 80? anyways) so each tournament they take in 70x 256 (pool players dont pay) = 17920 or 80x256 = 20480
this is for starcraft alone.
wach event they give out...14000? but what no one is discussing is the national championship where their handing out..(100,000? or more im not sure.)
so if during 6 events they make:
6x80x256 = 122880
and they give out
5x14000 + 100,000 = 190,000
where do you come up with " they dont give out everything the players pay in" They said the circuit events were lower prize pool BECAUSE of the big national championship.
Sundance has ALSO said, he would like to increase circuit events both in prize pool, as well as number of them next year.
I just think the claims of "you don't even pay the players back their entrance" is ludicris, and had to prove it wrong.
Ok so their actual prize pool is $67,000 over 6 events so $11,000 per event. Do you think that is worthwhile compared to other international events, and that the players attending receive enough money, taking into account all the flights and accomodation the teams pay, the training each player puts in? What do you think the total payout over 6 events averages, Dreamhack, IEM, or GSL even, oh wait ,I think they all pay over $11,000 each just for first place. Hmm.
The amount of entitlement going on here is staggering. Everyone wants a perfect product but is so quick to become enraged as soon as someone asks for money. Yes, I get that Sundance's statement is a bit obvious, but it doesn't somehow make it offensive.
Here's the other thing I wish more people would realize. Every single dime poured into competitive gaming, whether it be in production or prize pool, must in some form or another, be paid out by us, the consumers. Advertising is seen by people on the forum as some sort of magical manna from the sky dependent only on traffic volume. Not entirely true. The companies paying to have their names attached to events like MLG are only doing so because they expect to turn that much if not more of a profit off of us. But since there's only a finite amount of Stride gum I can buy, there's only a finite amount of ad revenue they're going to provide. If I want more out of MLG, there's only one other option, to provide them with membership money.
Basically, shut up and open your wallets. Most of you have plenty of money to afford a membership to a few leagues. And if you're one of the irritating "get more ads" people, then clearly you need to get your ass out there and buy a shitton of Stride and Dr. Pepper and whatever else it is sponsoring MLG because if money doesn't flow, neither will the games.
I think it may be in poor taste to hold the prize pool hostage. I'm sure there's a different and better way to go about explaining the things that need to happen in order for a prize pool to increase significantly.
On the other hand I think incontrol jumped on this a little too hard and fast. Yes the prize pool isn't amazing but MLG is just starting to get its shit together. Columbus was the best event so far and it seems you expect the prize pool to triple overnight. You don't know the financial situation of MLG and what it needs to fulfill a larger prize pool. Again, Sundance may have gone about explaining that in the wrong way, but making cutesy sarcastic remarks doesn't help the situation.
If the rest of the season has the same success as Columbus then I'd agree the prize pool for next year needs a significant increase. With Columbus-quality events hitting 100k subs shouldn't be that hard imo.
I bought a membership to this for 3 months and now I wish I hadn't. half of what you pay for you dont even get. I can't even get the VODs to show up in HD quality. Then they take away replays. Then I find out I can no longer have both streams up in HD... its like give me a break. You dont sell a product, tell your customers its one thing, then give them something completely different. The one saving grace is the live quality on ultra is probably as good as anything else.
I don't see it as a problem for business doing something based on income, it's completely in their right to do it as it's a capitalistic world we live in and if you don't like it don't consume the product which is a great tournament.
Its just funny that MLG overheads seem to be 10 times everyone elses.Im sure for 3 million in stream sales everyone else would increase their prize pools a hell of a lot more than MLG
On July 31 2011 02:30 hdan wrote: Its just funny that MLG overheads seem to be 10 times everyone elses.Im sure for 3 million in stream sales everyone else would increase their prize pools a hell of a lot more than MLG
you still don't get it after 40 pages? sc2 isn't the only game mlg has.
The growth of ESPORTS requires contributions from both the community and the event sponsors. We can't just sit around wanting everything to be free and expect there to be an awesome event. Let's be frank and admit that we want ESPORTS as badly as they do.
MLG has done a great job so far. I'm confident that it will improve. Let's not overreact and cut off our noses to spite our face.
On July 31 2011 02:37 StRyKeR wrote: The growth of ESPORTS requires contributions from both the community and the event sponsors. We can't just sit around wanting everything to be free and expect there to be an awesome event. Let's be frank and admit that we want ESPORTS as badly as they do.
MLG has done a great job so far. I'm confident that it will improve. Let's not overreact and cut off our noses to spite our face.
it HASNT improved though. This event offers less than the last MLG event.
On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote: what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually.
They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000
You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct?
Thanks to the other people that finally understood the point I was trying to make, but in the mean time, you do realise that $14k is less than 0.5% of $3mil
What my post said was that SC2 prize money wasn't their only expense. As has been stated many times previously in this thread, MLG's total prize pool (for all of their games, not just SC2) is over $800,000. That 14k you brought up is the prize pool from one event from one of their games. The subscriptions to MLG gold are to finance an entire year of events, not just a single event.
Yes well you would hope that the subscriptions werent the only money that comes in to MLG too I was just trying to make a point about the ratio of money required to be spent on MLG stuff by us in order to increase the prizes earned by the players, you know supporting eSports and players etc. So for every $10 you spend on MLG merch, streams etc maybe 50c will go to the starcraft players themselves. Maybe, of course noone has exact numbers at all, So who knows. I think that the quality of games has been fantastic at MLG and the quality of the event has been steadily getting better I never questioned that I just think the players deserve better prizes and that compared to all other international tournaments MLG winners are drastically underpaid comparitively.
How about just answer this, do you think it is fair that the players are asked to pay more to enter the tournament than they give out in prize pool?
Do you think it is fair that MLG spends more money on bringing in 2 Code S players and a Code A player and a Code B player from Korea than the prize pool available, especially considering that many european teams eat the cost of sending their players over despite how small the prizes are for the actual players.
Do you think that Starcraft is responsible for more than 30% of the various income (about what they gets with COD and Halo taking the other 70%) MLG gets.. whether through streams payments advertising whatever.
My point is for all the fantastic games they are playing all the hard training they put in and the costs the teams themselves have to eat with entry fees flights and accomodation the players dont get enough money.
Lets Calculate, Its 70$? dollars to enter?(or is it 80? anyways) so each tournament they take in 70x 256 (pool players dont pay) = 17920 or 80x256 = 20480
this is for starcraft alone.
wach event they give out...14000? but what no one is discussing is the national championship where their handing out..(100,000? or more im not sure.)
so if during 6 events they make:
6x80x256 = 122880
and they give out
5x14000 + 100,000 = 190,000
where do you come up with " they dont give out everything the players pay in" They said the circuit events were lower prize pool BECAUSE of the big national championship.
Sundance has ALSO said, he would like to increase circuit events both in prize pool, as well as number of them next year.
I just think the claims of "you don't even pay the players back their entrance" is ludicris, and had to prove it wrong.
the debate is really dumb in my opinion, MLG can do whatever they want and as far as I am concerned they really give the material we want. But this post, omg come on, you have no sense of economy or what-so-ever, as an accountant I laughed reading through your post.
If you don't have any idea how revenue/money work, don't try to make yourself an expert
On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote: HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that?
HSC was mainly based on volunteers for admin etc. HSC had not had to rent a venue. HSC only had a SC2 tournament. Those are some of the things, that make MLG need to have more money to put out the same or more money as a prize pool.
If MLG is losing money on venues then they are doing it wrong. Between gate and concessions they should be making a nice profit. HSC didn't have these revenue streams, so it actually hurt them in a sense.
Gate and concessions? What are you, a 12 year old who runs a lemonade stand?
Come back when you reach adulthood and realize how big-boy money works.
MLG does not hold a monopoly on gaming tournaments. All it takes it some dudes / duddettes with some capital to roll in, and set up their own LAN tournaments. MLG would either die at this point (as has been the case with EVERY OTHER gaming league in North America), or they would RAISE THE PRIZE MONEY to satisfy the customers (akin to lowering the price of a product).
Market is more or less competitive. MLG has to produce a better product than the competitors, or die. So far, they've succeeded.
Edit: LOL. And I was just thinking - we've already seen some dudes / duddettes roll in, and try to take over the NA tournament scene, and fail.
Why is increased prize pool needed? Players are happily joining this tournament and player passes are sold out every single mlg. There's no competition either. Pro gamers are cheap they dont have many choices if they want to do this and pro gamers arent doing this for the tournament winnings. So why increase prize pool?
On July 31 2011 02:14 hdan wrote: Ok so their actual prize pool is $67,000 over 6 events so $11,000 per event. Do you think that is worthwhile compared to other international events, and that the players attending receive enough money, taking into account all the flights and accomodation the teams pay, the training each player puts in? What do you think the total payout over 6 events averages, Dreamhack, IEM, or GSL even, oh wait ,I think they all pay over $11,000 each just for first place. Hmm.
How do you come up with such a stupid interpretation of this? No, their actual prize pool is $190 000 (or whatever the guy before you stated). You never count the entrance fees because everyone attending is willing to risk that money to play. Also, I'm pretty sure IEM's total budget over a year for prize money is around 600 000 while MLG's is around 800 000. Whether more or less of that 800 000 should go to starcraft is something sundance should decide.
On July 31 2011 02:30 hdan wrote: Its just funny that MLG overheads seem to be 10 times everyone elses.Im sure for 3 million in stream sales everyone else would increase their prize pools a hell of a lot more than MLG
Then we would be watching their tournament (because they would obviously be producing a better product and attracting top pro away from MLG with all that cash they are giving away), and not MLG. Seriously, where do you kids live that it is not required for you to pass the 8th grade?
On July 30 2011 02:41 SundanceMLG wrote: You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit.
No offence, but the VoDs need to be higher resolution, organized in a better way (OMG just check out how easy to use gomtv.net vod system is!!!), and there need to be much more games for me to be willing to buy the ticket.
Right now I can't even watch all the games I'd love to see (Ret's games?!), and there are 0 VoDs or replays from the open bracket ...
I'm someone who's been buying every single GSL/GSTL season ticket, because I know I will be able to watch easily accessible *high quality* VoDs, anytime I want, that are organized in a spoiler-free way. Very important for me.
Using my boyfriend's ticket to watch this MLG, but so far I don't see much that would make me pay for my own ticket so far...
And for all of you amateur economists saying that memberships don't matter, take some hard facts in your face. If every person on the Earth bought an MLG membership, they would be able to afford over 100 billion dollars in their prize pool for Starcraft. Fact.
On July 30 2011 02:41 SundanceMLG wrote: You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit.
No offence, but the VoDs need to be higher resolution, organized in a better way (OMG just check out how easy to use gomtv.net vod system is!!!), and there need to be much more games for me to be willing to buy the ticket.
Right now I can't even watch all the games I'd love to see (Ret's games?!), and there are 0 VoDs or replays from the open bracket ...
I'm someone who's been buying every single GSL/GSTL season ticket, because I know I will be able to watch easily accessible *high quality* VoDs, anytime I want, that are organized in a spoiler-free way. Very important for me.
Using my boyfriend's ticket to watch this MLG, but so far I don't see much that would make me pay for my own ticket so far...
This a million times over...
You can be fanboys and scream ESPORTS all you want but the bottom line is the VODS suck they are not even in HD. If he wants more people to support MLG he needs to fix their godawful site.
That being said I would be more than happy to support their great product if and when that happens. Until then there are competitors out there ie. GSL who are getting my money because they deserve it.
On July 30 2011 02:41 SundanceMLG wrote: You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit.
No offence, but the VoDs need to be higher resolution, organized in a better way (OMG just check out how easy to use gomtv.net vod system is!!!), and there need to be much more games for me to be willing to buy the ticket.
Right now I can't even watch all the games I'd love to see (Ret's games?!), and there are 0 VoDs or replays from the open bracket ...
I'm someone who's been buying every single GSL/GSTL season ticket, because I know I will be able to watch easily accessible *high quality* VoDs, anytime I want, that are organized in a spoiler-free way. Very important for me.
Using my boyfriend's ticket to watch this MLG, but so far I don't see much that would make me pay for my own ticket so far...
You can be fanboys and scream ESPORTS all you want but the bottom line is the VODS suck they are not even in HD. If he wants more people to support MLG he needs to fix their godawful site.
Got to agree with this, I never got to MLG's site to check brackets or tournament schedules because it's such a fucking nightmare to navigate. I've done it plenty of times and I still don't remember how to get around it. A fanbased TL thread shouldn't be the only decent way to see what's going on in an MLG tournament, be it for VODs or bloody pricing.
On July 30 2011 02:41 SundanceMLG wrote: You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit.
No offence, but the VoDs need to be higher resolution, organized in a better way (OMG just check out how easy to use gomtv.net vod system is!!!), and there need to be much more games for me to be willing to buy the ticket.
Right now I can't even watch all the games I'd love to see (Ret's games?!), and there are 0 VoDs or replays from the open bracket ...
I'm someone who's been buying every single GSL/GSTL season ticket, because I know I will be able to watch easily accessible *high quality* VoDs, anytime I want, that are organized in a spoiler-free way. Very important for me.
Using my boyfriend's ticket to watch this MLG, but so far I don't see much that would make me pay for my own ticket so far...
This a million times over...
You can be fanboys and scream ESPORTS all you want but the bottom line is the VODS suck they are not even in HD. If he wants more people to support MLG he needs to fix their godawful site.
That being said I would be more than happy to support their great product if and when that happens. Until then there are competitors out there ie. GSL who are getting my money because they deserve it.
TLDR : Earn my money(PLEASE)
Well, they are asking for feedback on their new sc2 site ( http://sc2.majorleaguegaming.com/ ) so go ahead and give them the feedback they need. As for the stream/vod quality...I got what I paid for..HQ, if you were expecting HD then you must have misread somewhere.
On July 30 2011 02:41 SundanceMLG wrote: You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit.
No offence, but the VoDs need to be higher resolution, organized in a better way (OMG just check out how easy to use gomtv.net vod system is!!!), and there need to be much more games for me to be willing to buy the ticket.
Right now I can't even watch all the games I'd love to see (Ret's games?!), and there are 0 VoDs or replays from the open bracket ...
I'm someone who's been buying every single GSL/GSTL season ticket, because I know I will be able to watch easily accessible *high quality* VoDs, anytime I want, that are organized in a spoiler-free way. Very important for me.
Using my boyfriend's ticket to watch this MLG, but so far I don't see much that would make me pay for my own ticket so far...
This a million times over...
You can be fanboys and scream ESPORTS all you want but the bottom line is the VODS suck they are not even in HD. If he wants more people to support MLG he needs to fix their godawful site.
That being said I would be more than happy to support their great product if and when that happens. Until then there are competitors out there ie. GSL who are getting my money because they deserve it.
TLDR : Earn my money(PLEASE)
Well, they are asking for feedback on their new sc2 site ( http://sc2.majorleaguegaming.com/ ) so go ahead and give them the feedback they need. As for the stream/vod quality...I got what I paid for..HQ, if you were expecting HD then you must have misread somewhere.
Thanks for the link. I will go post some suggestions there.
Also I am aware they do not advertise HD I am just hoping that they will move towards that model soon(hopefully for 2012 season?).
On July 30 2011 02:41 SundanceMLG wrote: You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit.
No offence, but the VoDs need to be higher resolution, organized in a better way (OMG just check out how easy to use gomtv.net vod system is!!!), and there need to be much more games for me to be willing to buy the ticket.
Right now I can't even watch all the games I'd love to see (Ret's games?!), and there are 0 VoDs or replays from the open bracket ...
I'm someone who's been buying every single GSL/GSTL season ticket, because I know I will be able to watch easily accessible *high quality* VoDs, anytime I want, that are organized in a spoiler-free way. Very important for me.
Using my boyfriend's ticket to watch this MLG, but so far I don't see much that would make me pay for my own ticket so far...
You can be fanboys and scream ESPORTS all you want but the bottom line is the VODS suck they are not even in HD. If he wants more people to support MLG he needs to fix their godawful site.
Got to agree with this, I never got to MLG's site to check brackets or tournament schedules because it's such a fucking nightmare to navigate. I've done it plenty of times and I still don't remember how to get around it. A fanbased TL thread shouldn't be the only decent way to see what's going on in an MLG tournament, be it for VODs or bloody pricing.
The stream schedule, brackets and VODs are all linked directly from the same page as the video embed. The brackets are directly below the player and the stream schedule is directly to the right of the player. Curious to know how they could make it more obvious where to click.
On July 30 2011 02:41 SundanceMLG wrote: You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit.
No offence, but the VoDs need to be higher resolution, organized in a better way (OMG just check out how easy to use gomtv.net vod system is!!!), and there need to be much more games for me to be willing to buy the ticket.
Right now I can't even watch all the games I'd love to see (Ret's games?!), and there are 0 VoDs or replays from the open bracket ...
I'm someone who's been buying every single GSL/GSTL season ticket, because I know I will be able to watch easily accessible *high quality* VoDs, anytime I want, that are organized in a spoiler-free way. Very important for me.
Using my boyfriend's ticket to watch this MLG, but so far I don't see much that would make me pay for my own ticket so far...
You can be fanboys and scream ESPORTS all you want but the bottom line is the VODS suck they are not even in HD. If he wants more people to support MLG he needs to fix their godawful site.
Got to agree with this, I never got to MLG's site to check brackets or tournament schedules because it's such a fucking nightmare to navigate. I've done it plenty of times and I still don't remember how to get around it. A fanbased TL thread shouldn't be the only decent way to see what's going on in an MLG tournament, be it for VODs or bloody pricing.
The stream schedule, brackets and VODs are all linked directly from the same page as the video embed. The brackets are directly below the player and the stream schedule is directly to the right of the player. Curious to know how they could make it more obvious where to click.
OH one last thought if you are looking for that info save yourself the time and use TL's version it is way better and is updated faster. http://www.teamliquid.net/mlg/
On July 30 2011 02:41 SundanceMLG wrote: You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit.
No offence, but the VoDs need to be higher resolution, organized in a better way (OMG just check out how easy to use gomtv.net vod system is!!!), and there need to be much more games for me to be willing to buy the ticket.
Right now I can't even watch all the games I'd love to see (Ret's games?!), and there are 0 VoDs or replays from the open bracket ...
I'm someone who's been buying every single GSL/GSTL season ticket, because I know I will be able to watch easily accessible *high quality* VoDs, anytime I want, that are organized in a spoiler-free way. Very important for me.
Using my boyfriend's ticket to watch this MLG, but so far I don't see much that would make me pay for my own ticket so far...
You can be fanboys and scream ESPORTS all you want but the bottom line is the VODS suck they are not even in HD. If he wants more people to support MLG he needs to fix their godawful site.
Got to agree with this, I never got to MLG's site to check brackets or tournament schedules because it's such a fucking nightmare to navigate. I've done it plenty of times and I still don't remember how to get around it. A fanbased TL thread shouldn't be the only decent way to see what's going on in an MLG tournament, be it for VODs or bloody pricing.
The stream schedule, brackets and VODs are all linked directly from the same page as the video embed. The brackets are directly below the player and the stream schedule is directly to the right of the player. Curious to know how they could make it more obvious where to click.
Right you are. I spoke too soon, seems they have updated the website for Anaheim. If they let me watch both HD red and blue stream at the same time I won't really have anything to complain about.
On July 31 2011 02:30 hdan wrote: Its just funny that MLG overheads seem to be 10 times everyone elses.Im sure for 3 million in stream sales everyone else would increase their prize pools a hell of a lot more than MLG
Then we would be watching their tournament (because they would obviously be producing a better product and attracting top pro away from MLG with all that cash they are giving away), and not MLG. Seriously, where do you kids live that it is not required for you to pass the 8th grade?
I know a lot of people feel they can get away with a lot of shit while many staff members are away, but if I were you I would stop talking down people to make your point. You might last a little longer here.
I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with what you said, but after reading a few of your posts you need to change your attitude.
On July 31 2011 02:50 loiop wrote: Why is increased prize pool needed? Players are happily joining this tournament and player passes are sold out every single mlg. There's no competition either. Pro gamers are cheap they dont have many choices if they want to do this and pro gamers arent doing this for the tournament winnings. So why increase prize pool?
Because the prize pool has been a complaint since the season started. Many people have been bitching about the size of the prize pool and saying it should be bigger. So that's why the bigger prize pool was given as incentive.
On July 31 2011 05:14 Seventeen wrote: I hate Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson with a fiery passion. Ever since BW he's been nothing but a malignant tumor in the body of the SC community.
You may dislike the way he presents himself, but "nothing but a malignant tumor" is totally crazy. He has been a skilled player, a member of State of the Game, and the organizer behind the NASL, just to name a few. If that isn't a contributor to the Starcraft community I don't know what is.
On July 31 2011 05:14 Seventeen wrote: I hate Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson with a fiery passion. Ever since BW he's been nothing but a malignant tumor in the body of the SC community.
You may dislike the way he presents himself, but "nothing but a malignant tumor" is totally crazy. He has been a skilled player, a member of State of the Game, and the organizer behind the NASL, just to name a few. If that isn't a contributor to the Starcraft community I don't know what is.
I go to sleep and wake back up and there's even more hate towards iNcontroL. Good job, haters!
I think you guys needs to realize that the average person is not affected (or at least should not be affected) by Sundance's twitter post at all. The only thing his post pertains to is the professional gamers themselves. And if you want to narrow it down even more, only the few that win. What does it matter to us if the players who are already playing in the tournament right now get an extra 10k? It doesn't. That's the reason why his twitter post was bullshit. He's asking the community to buy into MLG and gives a reason that has nothing to do with the community. That's why iNcontroL posted what he posted, not because he's some crazy ultrabitch that you all make him out to be.
He cares about SC2 just as much as you do, if not even more. Like I said before. HE'S AT THE TOURNAMENT RIGHT NOW. HE'S PLAYING A GAME TODAY. Why the fuck would he trashtalk at the event while he's playing in it? I don't know, but you'll sure find a good reason for it, because that's what you do haters, you just create reasons out of thin air so that you can keep the hate train rolling.
Try harder haters. So far the validity of the arguments in this thread against Mr. controL is zero.
On July 31 2011 05:28 Sd9 wrote: I go to sleep and wake back up and there's even more hate towards iNcontroL. Good job, haters!
I think you guys needs to realize that the average person is not affected (or at least should not be affected) by Sundance's twitter post at all. The only thing his post pertains to is the professional gamers themselves. And if you want to narrow it down even more, only the few that win. What does it matter to us if the players who are already playing in the tournament right now get an extra 10k? It doesn't. That's the reason why his twitter post was bullshit. He's asking the community to buy into MLG and gives a reason that has nothing to do with the community. That's why iNcontroL posted what he posted, not because he's some crazy ultrabitch that you all make him out to be.
He cares about SC2 just as much as you do, if not even more. Like I said before. HE'S AT THE TOURNAMENT RIGHT NOW. HE'S PLAYING A GAME TODAY. Why the fuck would he trashtalk at the event while he's playing in it? I don't know, but you'll sure find a good reason for it, because that's what you do haters, you just create reasons out of thin air so that you can keep the hate train rolling.
Try harder haters. So far the validity of the arguments in this thread against Mr. controL is zero.
On July 31 2011 05:28 Sd9 wrote: I go to sleep and wake back up and there's even more hate towards iNcontroL. Good job, haters!
I think you guys needs to realize that the average person is not affected (or at least should not be affected) by Sundance's twitter post at all. The only thing his post pertains to is the professional gamers themselves. And if you want to narrow it down even more, only the few that win. What does it matter to us if the players who are already playing in the tournament right now get an extra 10k? It doesn't. That's the reason why his twitter post was bullshit. He's asking the community to buy into MLG and gives a reason that has nothing to do with the community. That's why iNcontroL posted what he posted, not because he's some crazy ultrabitch that you all make him out to be.
He cares about SC2 just as much as you do, if not even more. Like I said before. HE'S AT THE TOURNAMENT RIGHT NOW. HE'S PLAYING A GAME TODAY. Why the fuck would he trashtalk at the event while he's playing in it? I don't know, but you'll sure find a good reason for it, because that's what you do haters, you just create reasons out of thin air so that you can keep the hate train rolling.
Try harder haters. So far the validity of the arguments in this thread against Mr. controL is zero.
It has been a constant complaint to MLG that the prize pools are low... do a bit of searching... from your perspective, shouldn't NASL have taken a big hit to it's own prize pool since it doesn't matter to you that the 1st place player gets a significant amount of money?
This is not a ohh your tournament is bad, and so is everything you do. Its a "hey you are doing great, but here is what to improve."
For me there are a few things that MLG does alot better then most other leagues:
Live blog Replays released (sadly this is no and means I will rethink a project I had in mind) Twitter score updates.
While the video player MLG has is ok for quality, its still quite laggy at times and no its not my 20+mbit fiber connection. The video quality even at ultra is a bit blocky. You might have to look in to resolution vs. bitrate. Just having stuff in higher res isn't always the best.
NASL and dreamhack still wins the video quality war, NASL better on bitrate than dreamhack. Dreamhack better on lag issues.
But what annoys me the most about the MLG stream is that cupon code. Make it so I don't have to paste it in all the time, and let set a default quality. Each time when I change stream I have to switch from medium to high/ultra. The way NASL did it over justin works better.
I will most likely not signup for a membership, but I will get the HD stream pass. I have little interest in joining yet another Starcraft community site.
MLG could improve:
Faster stream switching, without having to having to change quality each time. (And add-in code). Bring back the replay packs. I don't mind waiting for them till after a lan is done, but don't remove something where you had something special going that no other tournament had. The website is quite a mess to navigate. Another reason why i'm not jumping in at a membership asap. Audio overpeaking from time to time. (Fx. qxc game on day2 helions sounded like they were shooting nukes). Maybe a bit better video player, quality of bitrate.
On July 30 2011 04:41 Leafren wrote: Isn't Incontrol the guy that's always arguing on podcasts that everyone should act professional at all times etc? I'd say comments like that don't live up to his own standards. I think it's evident Sundance tries to make esports work and grow, so if you don't agree with his methods at least discuss it in a grown-up manner.
Incontrol is pretty much the most perfect definition of a hypocrite you'll ever find. He makes racist remarks about Indians, makes jokes about rape, and commits numbers of other horrendous PR mistakes and then turns around the next minute and criticizes people for doing the same. Usually when someone brings it up he'll apologize and say that he's different and then be a total asshole the next day anyway.
The NASL, in my opinion, represented one of his biggest hypocrisies; he started with his poorly run showmatch between Idra and Jinro, then said the NASL would be much better. After the NASL was equally bad, he continued to encourage people to buy NASL passes to "support esports" as if a horribly ran league deserved charity from thousands of people simply because they casted videogames.
Incontrol leaves the sinking ship of the NASL after it's obviously failed after the first season and then starts committing more to being a professional gamer (which is ironic because he's an absolutely horrible player that basically relies on cheese to win his games). In a recent match casted by the IPL, he went forge expand with no nexus into 4gate into nexus and stargate simply because he can't win a straight up game and tries to rely on gimmicks to win instead (after all, there's a reason he's probably the most known 4gate/stargate user).
Then of course when he's supposedly now a professional gamer and a real organization that actually produces quality content encourages people to buy passes he turns around and mocks them because apparently the irony is completely lost on him.
It's not surprising that Inc is so religious because he displays the usual hypocrisy and immorality of religious leaders.
Anyway, that was more than enough about incontrol. Moving back to this whole MLG debacle; I would say I'm fine with Sundance's honesty in the numbers he needs but a little disappointed he chose to use twitter to express it, because it made him appear both shady and greedy.
On July 31 2011 05:41 Seventeen wrote: Please refer to sanddbox_tl's post if you're having trouble finding credible arguments for iNcontroL's assholery. + Show Spoiler +
On July 30 2011 04:41 Leafren wrote: Isn't Incontrol the guy that's always arguing on podcasts that everyone should act professional at all times etc? I'd say comments like that don't live up to his own standards. I think it's evident Sundance tries to make esports work and grow, so if you don't agree with his methods at least discuss it in a grown-up manner.
Incontrol is pretty much the most perfect definition of a hypocrite you'll ever find. He makes racist remarks about Indians, makes jokes about rape, and commits numbers of other horrendous PR mistakes and then turns around the next minute and criticizes people for doing the same. Usually when someone brings it up he'll apologize and say that he's different and then be a total asshole the next day anyway.
The NASL, in my opinion, represented one of his biggest hypocrisies; he started with his poorly run showmatch between Idra and Jinro, then said the NASL would be much better. After the NASL was equally bad, he continued to encourage people to buy NASL passes to "support esports" as if a horribly ran league deserved charity from thousands of people simply because they casted videogames.
Incontrol leaves the sinking ship of the NASL after it's obviously failed after the first season and then starts committing more to being a professional gamer (which is ironic because he's an absolutely horrible player that basically relies on cheese to win his games). In a recent match casted by the IPL, he went forge expand with no nexus into 4gate into nexus and stargate simply because he can't win a straight up game and tries to rely on gimmicks to win instead (after all, there's a reason he's probably the most known 4gate/stargate user).
Then of course when he's supposedly now a professional gamer and a real organization that actually produces quality content encourages people to buy passes he turns around and mocks them because apparently the irony is completely lost on him.
It's not surprising that Inc is so religious because he displays the usual hypocrisy and immorality of religious leaders.
Anyway, that was more than enough about incontrol. Moving back to this whole MLG debacle; I would say I'm fine with Sundance's honesty in the numbers he needs but a little disappointed he chose to use twitter to express it, because it made him appear both shady and greedy.
Wow you're right, that's a great argument. "He makes mistakes, so he shouldn't criticize people. The NASL is his fault. Also he's bad at Starcraft. Also, he's dumb because of religion lol."
People that make mistakes can still criticize others. The NASL wasn't his fault. He's not bad at Starcraft (he's not the best player in the world, but come on...he's competing at the highest level outside of GSL). And the last, extremely ignorant point with a crazy generalization of all religious people doesn't even deserve a response.
It has been a constant complaint to MLG that the prize pools are low... do a bit of searching... from your perspective, shouldn't NASL have taken a big hit to it's own prize pool since it doesn't matter to you that the 1st place player gets a significant amount of money?
Nope. The top players in the SC2 world are at MLG right now. The only time the prize pool should be considered is when they start boycotting the event. And I don't think that's going to happen any time soon considering the straight-to-code-a or straight-to-code-s options that the GSL has provided.
It has been a constant complaint to MLG that the prize pools are low... do a bit of searching... from your perspective, shouldn't NASL have taken a big hit to it's own prize pool since it doesn't matter to you that the 1st place player gets a significant amount of money?
Nope. The top players in the SC2 world are at MLG right now. The only time the prize pool should be considered is when they start boycotting the event. And I don't think that's going to happen any time soon considering the straight-to-code-a or straight-to-code-s options that the GSL has provided.
That first sentence just isn't true, there's a whole shit ton of great Koreans who could win this tournament who aren't there. That's not necessarily a problem, but clearly the event could be bigger, you don't have to wait for a boycott.
I'm sure that they'll increase the prize pool/expand the tournament when they feel it makes sense to do it financially. I'm also sure it will have nothing to do with boycotting, lol
I was much more inclined to pay for a MLG pass until this crap. Also. why are people hate'n incontrol again...? What Incontrol posted is just a humerous response to an outrageous post made by someone.
Sundance's initial post makes no sense. If they're able to increase the prize pools then they should do so, to appease the fans, and to make the even a bigger, larger thing. The general idea that if they get more subscribers, they will increase the prize pool makes sense. but what was posted just seems to antagonize fans.
It has been a constant complaint to MLG that the prize pools are low... do a bit of searching... from your perspective, shouldn't NASL have taken a big hit to it's own prize pool since it doesn't matter to you that the 1st place player gets a significant amount of money?
Nope. The top players in the SC2 world are at MLG right now. The only time the prize pool should be considered is when they start boycotting the event. And I don't think that's going to happen any time soon considering the straight-to-code-a or straight-to-code-s options that the GSL has provided.
So you don't want a raise at work unless you boycott your job? Is that seriously your stance on this?
That first sentence just isn't true, there's a whole shit ton of great Koreans who could win this tournament who aren't there. That's not necessarily a problem, but clearly the event could be bigger, you don't have to wait for a boycott.
I'm sure that they'll increase the prize pool/expand the tournament when they feel it makes sense to do it financially. I'm also sure it will have nothing to do with boycotting, lol
I wonder why the Koreans aren't over here? Could it be because some of them were playing in the GSL? Maybe. That would make sense, right? But... I wonder why Koreans would want to play in a Korean based tournament? Maybe it's because they live in Korea? Yeah! That's gotta be it!
Most of the top SC2 players who are available showed up. The tournament isn't a joke by any means. The top foreigners in the world are playing, coupled with a few high class Koreans. Is the goal of the MLG to destroy the GSL and take all of their players? Because if that's the case they've got a long way to go.
And I get it. There doesn't need to be a boycott. I never said that. They can raise the prize pool whenever they want if you ignore the business aspect of the MLG, (which is what this thread pretty much boiled down to) but at that point you're just showing me that you haven't read through it at all.
So you don't want a raise at work unless you boycott your job? Is that seriously your stance on this?
We're not talking about a job. We're talking about a company that is going to collapse if they aren't careful with their situation. Did you even read through this thread at all? Sundance is saying that they NEED a huge number of passes sold to even consider raising the prize pools. They NEED money and if the professionals are showing up to the tournament with the pools as they are now then that money can go elsewhere. It's not that hard to understand.
What is with this community? Sundance says he will raise the prize pool if he can get enough subscribers, and suddenly he's jumped on like a wounded deer in an African savannah.
He's the only reason Starcraft ll is even considered an eSport in North America. He's the reason people like Geoff can even consider becoming full time professional players, and he's attacked for trying to keep MLG afloat? His pockets aren't bottomless.
Perhaps Geoff was tilting after losing his matches Friday night and misspoke, but that doesn't excuse the mindless sheep who jumped to back him up.
Be grateful for MLG and what it's doing for this community.
So you don't want a raise at work unless you boycott your job? Is that seriously your stance on this?
We're not talking about a job. We're talking about a company that is going to collapse if they aren't careful with their situation. Did you even read through this thread at all? Sundance is saying that they NEED a huge number of passes sold to even consider raising the prize pools. They NEED money and if the professionals are showing up to the tournament with the pools as they are now then that money can go elsewhere. It's not that hard to understand.
You're right, it ISN'T that hard to understand, you just seem to be missing the point completely. I think you are making yourself seem like the one who hasn't read the thread. Either that, or you assume to know Sundance's plans for the expantion of MLG in the coming years, so you know the subscriber count needed better than he does.
MLG is NOT going to collapse. They are doing a phenomenal job with their live events. How you can even suggest that MLG is going to collapse when tournaments and leagues such as the NASL are able to have a second season is beyond me.
On July 31 2011 06:42 Grimjim wrote: What is with this community? Sundance says he will raise the prize pool if he can get enough subscribers, and suddenly he's jumped on like a wounded deer in an African savannah.
Be grateful for MLG and what it's doing for this community.
I know, because of iNcontroL's size, you might mistake him for a full-grown lion, but he's really not.
No one is jumping on Sundance here. They're just pointing out a simple flaw in his logic and somehow THAT is what sparked the heated debate that you now see in this thread. We're all grateful for what MLG is doing but that doesn't mean we can't question tweets that make no sense to us.
So you don't want a raise at work unless you boycott your job? Is that seriously your stance on this?
We're not talking about a job. We're talking about a company that is going to collapse if they aren't careful with their situation. Did you even read through this thread at all? Sundance is saying that they NEED a huge number of passes sold to even consider raising the prize pools. They NEED money and if the professionals are showing up to the tournament with the pools as they are now then that money can go elsewhere. It's not that hard to understand.
You're right, it ISN'T that hard to understand, you just seem to be missing the point completely. I think you are making yourself seem like the one who hasn't read the thread. Either that, or you assume to know Sundance's plans for the expantion of MLG in the coming years, so you know the subscriber count needed better than he does.
MLG is NOT going to collapse. They are doing a phenomenal job with their live events. How you can even suggest that MLG is going to collapse when tournaments and leagues such as the NASL are able to have a second season is beyond me.
Unless I'm mistaken, you have no clue on the revenue streams or the costs associated with these events. Just because they're popular and successful from a technical point of view doesn't mean anything about the profitability of their business model. NASL has been guaranteed through 3 seasons. This means someone put up the money for the 3 seasons in the hopes of generating either profitability or, at the very least, sustainability (some corporations can exist being revenue negative for many years if there is a light at the end of the tunnel (see Facebook).
You're right, it ISN'T that hard to understand, you just seem to be missing the point completely. I think you are making yourself seem like the one who hasn't read the thread. Either that, or you assume to know Sundance's plans for the expantion of MLG in the coming years, so you know the subscriber count needed better than he does.
MLG is NOT going to collapse. They are doing a phenomenal job with their live events. How you can even suggest that MLG is going to collapse when tournaments and leagues such as the NASL are able to have a second season is beyond me.
Either you're blind or you're just ignoring the entire reason why this debate is heated at all.
Sundance wrote: "if that number is to high than I need to cut prize money next year.""
That quote right there is what I'm talking about. He said they would need to cut prize money if they didn't get enough subscribers. They NEED money. Thank you for proving that you're assuming even more than I am and have no idea what you're talking about.
Ahh but his tweets did make sense to ALOT of people, we understood what he was saying. If some people got butt hurt cause of the way and manner he said it, that's their problem. He was being straight forward and to the point.
On July 31 2011 06:42 Grimjim wrote: What is with this community? Sundance says he will raise the prize pool if he can get enough subscribers, and suddenly he's jumped on like a wounded deer in an African savannah.
Be grateful for MLG and what it's doing for this community.
I know, because of iNcontroL's size, you might mistake him for a full-grown lion, but he's really not.
No one is jumping on Sundance here. They're just pointing out a simple flaw in his logic and somehow THAT is what sparked the heated debate that you now see in this thread. We're all grateful for what MLG is doing but that doesn't mean we can't question tweets that make no sense to us.
What logic flaw? More subscribers = more money = more prize money? Seems quite flawless to me. Please explain your lack of understanding. Are you speaking of the second tweet? That was a joke. Haha. Hehe.
Unless you happen to be MLG's accountant, I don't think you're allowed to make judgements over their use of money.
On July 31 2011 07:05 Slider954 wrote: Ahh but his tweets did make sense to ALOT of people, we understood what he was saying. If some people got butt hurt cause of the way and manner he said it, that's their problem. He was being straight forward and to the point.
When you're at the head of the MLG you need to act like it. Sometimes being straight-forward and to the point is disadvantageous; this is one of those times. He brought up business negotiations with an entire community. That just doesn't make sense. We shouldn't be worrying about whether or not he can provide a bigger prize pool for the players. That's not our job. We're here to watch. If he wants us to subscribe he can't just ask us to do it because we have to. That's just bullshit.
And you're right, he's not asking us to subscribe just because we have to, but the bottom line is that his tweets aren't clear. He wants us to subscribe so that there will be a bigger prize pool next year and somehow that will make all of MLG better? That logic might make sense to the average TL poster but it just doesn't hold up under any scrutiny at all.
I have nothing against Sundance. In fact, I didn't even know who he was until I read through this post. He sounds like a good guy and is trying his best to provide the community with what they want. The only reason I'm here is because everyone is attacking my main man iNcontroL.
So far this thread has made him out to be a douchetastic-hypocrytical-clarkstanley-full-grown-lion.
And I'm only ok with it now that he's considered to be on the same level as a lion.
What logic flaw? More subscribers = more money = more prize money? Seems quite flawless to me. Please explain your lack of understanding. Are you speaking of the second tweet? That was a joke. Haha. Hehe.
Unless you happen to be MLG's accountant, I don't think you're allowed to make judgements over their use of money.
The one where he asked the entire community to provide more money to the MLG and in return he would provide no benefit to them. He's going to give more money to the winners of the tournament. If you think that somehow correlates to making the entire tournament better then you're being overly optimistic. That's all I'm saying. That's it.
Haha, did anyone else notice the subtle undertones in this thread in the vein of "MLG is too big to fail!" and "We must bail it out with our subscriptions!"?
I'm reminded of an article over on ArsTechnica, titled (I paraphrase) "Blocking our ads = stealing" where users were kindly asked if they could "Whitelist our site, because you see, we're having financial difficulties, we can't pay salaries to our staff, and besides, we tested blocking users who have ad blocking, it worked, and you don't want us to do it, now do you?" But what truly shocked me were elitistic responses from people who forced themselves to watch ads and tried to present it as something good: "Yeah, man I watch ads, I'm so cool, block the damn freeloaders".
I think the same reply I gave there applies here:
If your business (MLG in this case) is struggling financially and eventually does fail, it will be because whoever was in charge, made the wrong decisions, over and over again. It will have absolutely nothing with me, you or neighbor next door not paying to watch it.
Read and re-read the previous parapgraph until it sinks in. It is not your fault MLG is not making enough profit.
And then we have these kinds of posts in this thread:
On July 29 2011 14:27 Charger wrote: If the low quality is terrible as always, they should have no problems :p That's the only reason I paid at least.
Dude, you're paying for a service in advance. That's a ripoff in and of itself. Do you have any common sense? Sundance just said they are struggling with subscriptions. Do you know why is that? Their free content sucks. I know because I watch it. Do you know what I get? Low & Medium quality streams with ads and ... That's about it?
To me, that says "Pony up the cash or fuck off".
How on earth is MLG supposed to become popular outside of hardcore SC2 players pool (which you apparently belong to, since you bought MLG pass) if their free content is crappy quality stream with a gray strip taking top 1/5 of the screen?
I don't care that much about quality, as long as video isn't choppy and audio quality is decent, I think I can watch just about anything. In fact, I neither have the hardware nor bandwidth for High quality (720p on Youtube is unwatchable for me, 480p is ok). But for spoiled Westerner, if it isn't 1080p, he won't even bother with it (I'm aware you can see this as possible stereotype, but I think it's generally correct).
Imagine some casual player, he never played SC2, but heard of it from his friends, thinking to himself "Hey, MLG, let's see what this is about ... oh nice, free stream ... wtf quality" *closes tab* and never looks back. That's a potential subscriber lost for good.
If I were able to make decisions related to MLG, I would make Low & Medium & High & Ultra quality streams available for free, and have premium content for paying subscribers (interviews with players, post-game analysis, mail notifications, VODs whatever). I would forgo short-term profit for long-term advertisement and word of mouth between people who never before played SC saying to one another "Man, they have Ultra quality stream for free, imagine what they have for paying subscribers" or "I have nothing else to do, but I'm gonna watch MLG even though I don't know what this SC is, just because it's free Ultra quality".
But, but, but, greendestiny, you live in a fantasy land where money grows on trees. This isn't how businesses work
This is how I would make it and may heavens fall. And I'm sure subscription base would explode.
On July 31 2011 07:36 Slider954 wrote: I fail to understand how the community helping esports grow provides no benefit to them at all.
I fail to understand how giving money to esports directly translates into helping esports grow. Sundance's tweets make it seem like that money is needed for esports to continue to exist as it is now, not for it to grow. And you're right, that does benefit us, just not in the way that it should benefit a paying customer. We're not supposed to be the ones keeping MLG afloat. We're supposed to be a source of income, but we're not supposed to be THE source of income.
Stop acting like we're the ones that are responsible for whether MLG is successful or not. It's a business. It's responsible for itself. Deal with it.
What logic flaw? More subscribers = more money = more prize money? Seems quite flawless to me. Please explain your lack of understanding. Are you speaking of the second tweet? That was a joke. Haha. Hehe.
Unless you happen to be MLG's accountant, I don't think you're allowed to make judgements over their use of money.
The one where he asked the entire community to provide more money to the MLG and in return he would provide no benefit to them. He's going to give more money to the winners of the tournament. If you think that somehow correlates to making the entire tournament better then you're being overly optimistic. That's all I'm saying. That's it.
You're right. His hippie self will probably just start rolling doobies with Benjamins.
If you think that all he would do with the money from 100,000 subscribers is increase the prize pool, you're a moron. Not to mention that more prize money means more gamers, and therefore more games and tournaments.
Does he need to spell it all out for you? He's not asking for donations, he's giving an incentive and goal to the community to buy the subscription. It's a marketing strategy.
Whoa dude, I don't even know if you are being serious or sarcastic. Are you really, honestly saying that the paying customer has nothing to do with if a business succeeds or not?? I'm pretty sure that if the NFL, MLB etc didn't have their customers and fans providing all that income, they wouldn't be around, no matter how well the business was actually run.
I'm done posting. It's not our responsibility to make sure MLG stays alive. That's all I'm saying. Yes I want him to spell it out, that's his job. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
I can handle haters but when the white knights appear, that's when I calls it quits.
You have to be trolling. This has to be a troll. There is no way you can be this dense.
I lied. This will be my last post.
It's not helping esports grow. It's helping esports stay afloat. You could think that in the long term it helps it grow because it guarantees its survival but that's terrible business logic. Sundance is desperate, it seems, and if that's the case then he is asking us to do something without giving us any incentive to do so in order to make sure that MLG exists.
And I still dont get how you can state that we, the PAYING customer don't have a hand in whether MLG, NASL, IPL whatever succeeds. For any business that bills itself as an entertainment business such as MLG, the customers are very much the #1 reason whether it survives or not. Without them you have nothing.
On July 31 2011 07:27 greendestiny wrote: Haha, did anyone else notice the subtle undertones in this thread in the vein of "MLG is too big to fail!" and "We must bail it out with our subscriptions!"?
I'm reminded of an article over on ArsTechnica, titled (I paraphrase) "Blocking our ads = stealing" where users were kindly asked if they could "Whitelist our site, because you see, we're having financial difficulties, we can't pay salaries to our staff, and besides, we tested blocking users who have ad blocking, it worked, and you don't want us to do it, now do you?" But what truly shocked me were elitistic responses from people who forced themselves to watch ads and tried to present it as something good: "Yeah, man I watch ads, I'm so cool, block the damn freeloaders".
I think the same reply I gave there applies here:
If your business (MLG in this case) is struggling financially and eventually does fail, it will be because whoever was in charge, made the wrong decisions, over and over again. It will have absolutely nothing with me, you or neighbor next door not paying to watch it.
Read and re-read the previous parapgraph until it sinks in. It is not your fault MLG is not making enough profit.
And then we have these kinds of posts in this thread:
On July 29 2011 14:27 Charger wrote: If the low quality is terrible as always, they should have no problems :p That's the only reason I paid at least.
Dude, you're paying for a service in advance. That's a ripoff in and of itself. Do you have any common sense? Sundance just said they are struggling with subscriptions. Do you know why is that? Their free content sucks. I know because I watch it. Do you know what I get? Low & Medium quality streams with ads and ... That's about it?
To me, that says "Pony up the cash or fuck off".
How on earth is MLG supposed to become popular outside of hardcore SC2 players pool (which you apparently belong to, since you bought MLG pass) if their free content is crappy quality stream with a gray strip taking top 1/5 of the screen?
I don't care that much about quality, as long as video isn't choppy and audio quality is decent, I think I can watch just about anything. In fact, I neither have the hardware nor bandwidth for High quality (720p on Youtube is unwatchable for me, 480p is ok). But for spoiled Westerner, if it isn't 1080p, he won't even bother with it (I'm aware you can see this as possible stereotype, but I think it's generally correct).
Imagine some casual player, he never played SC2, but heard of it from his friends, thinking to himself "Hey, MLG, let's see what this is about ... oh nice, free stream ... wtf quality" *closes tab* and never looks back. That's a potential subscriber lost for good.
If I were able to make decisions related to MLG, I would make Low & Medium & High & Ultra quality streams available for free, and have premium content for paying subscribers (interviews with players, post-game analysis, mail notifications, VODs whatever). I would forgo short-term profit for long-term advertisement and word of mouth between people who never before played SC saying to one another "Man, they have Ultra quality stream for free, imagine what they have for paying subscribers" or "I have nothing else to do, but I'm gonna watch MLG even though I don't know what this SC is, just because it's free Ultra quality".
But, but, but, greendestiny, you live in a fantasy land where money grows on trees. This isn't how businesses work
This is how I would make it and may heavens fall. And I'm sure subscription base would explode.
On July 31 2011 08:08 Sd9 wrote: I'm done posting. It's not our responsibility to make sure MLG stays alive. That's all I'm saying. Yes I want him to spell it out, that's his job. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
I can handle haters but when the white knights appear, that's when I calls it quits.
iNcontroL if you read this: <3
Who is we? The spectators? How else is MLG supposed to grow if the entire viewership simply took and gave nothing back? If you don't want to pay, don't fucking pay. It's that simple! It's what I'm doing, simply because I don't watch enough to warrant that purchase. But to those on the fence, this provides a good incentive.
He did spell it out! More subscribers means more money and more prizes! What the hell is so hard to understand? He's not forcing people to, and he's not threatening to suplex our mothers if we don't.
You speak of haters as if you aren't one. And just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a "white knight". If anything, your blind defense of iNcontroL's silly opinion makes YOU the white knight.
You should apply critical thinking before entering discussions, instead of leaping onto Geoff's bandwagon of hate, jealousy, and angst.
You have to be trolling. This has to be a troll. There is no way you can be this dense.
I lied. This will be my last post.
It's not helping esports grow. It's helping esports stay afloat. You could think that in the long term it helps it grow because it guarantees its survival but that's terrible business logic. Sundance is desperate, it seems, and if that's the case then he is asking us to do something without giving us any incentive to do so in order to make sure that MLG exists.
That's bullshit.
If you don't think a HD stream for however long you buy it for is worth it, dont buy it. No need to come here and whine if you personally think it's not good enough of a product for you.
You have to be trolling. This has to be a troll. There is no way you can be this dense.
I lied. This will be my last post.
It's not helping esports grow. It's helping esports stay afloat. You could think that in the long term it helps it grow because it guarantees its survival but that's terrible business logic. Sundance is desperate, it seems, and if that's the case then he is asking us to do something without giving us any incentive to do so in order to make sure that MLG exists.
That's bullshit.
I will refer to my earlier comment and ask, once again, how you seem to know of MLG's financial stability. And if you seriously cannot see how money going to MLG helps it grow, I simply have no words for you and your terribly ignorant opinions.
On July 31 2011 08:17 vlf wrote: Yeah, I sure as hell am gonna subscribe when, all of a sudden, all the MLG streams start lagging like mofos even at medium quality for hours.
Get real.
Haven't had any lag yesterday or today and I have 2 streams open at once at all times.
Who is we? The spectators? How else is MLG supposed to grow if the entire viewership simply took and gave nothing back? If you don't want to pay, don't fucking pay. It's that simple! It's what I'm doing, simply because I don't watch enough to warrant that purchase. But to those on the fence, this provides a good incentive.
He did spell it out! More subscribers means more money and more prizes! What the hell is so hard to understand? He's not forcing people to, and he's not threatening to suplex our mothers if we don't.
You speak of haters as if you aren't one. And just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a "white knight". If anything, your blind defense of iNcontroL's silly opinion makes YOU the white knight.
You should apply critical thinking before entering discussions, instead of leaping onto Geoff's bandwagon of hate, jealousy, and angst.
He threatened to lower the prize pools if that number wasn't met, not the same as suplexing our mothers but it's just as bad. Fuck off.
I'm not a hater, nor am I a white knight. If anything, I'm a black knight.
If you don't think a HD stream for however long you buy it for is worth it, dont buy it. No need to come here and whine if you personally think it's not good enough of a product for you.
I'm not whining. I'm originally in this discussion because people were bandwagon hating on iNcontroL. I respect Sundance and his decisions. He's trying to make sure MLG stays the way it is and is trying to ensure its success in the future. If that means that we have to pay out of our own pockets for it to happen, fine. I'm not going to, and I'm not sure if 1,000,000 other users are, but if it happens, good! Great! Amazing!
On July 31 2011 08:17 vlf wrote: Yeah, I sure as hell am gonna subscribe when, all of a sudden, all the MLG streams start lagging like mofos even at medium quality for hours.
Get real.
Haven't had any lag yesterday or today and I have 2 streams open at once at all times.
I tried to figure out if the issue was on my end, that wasn't the case. I have plenty of streams open without any lag and even MLG's were working fine when the event started, but as more people started hammering the lag has gotten unbearable for me - which is unacceptable.
Who is we? The spectators? How else is MLG supposed to grow if the entire viewership simply took and gave nothing back? If you don't want to pay, don't fucking pay. It's that simple! It's what I'm doing, simply because I don't watch enough to warrant that purchase. But to those on the fence, this provides a good incentive.
He did spell it out! More subscribers means more money and more prizes! What the hell is so hard to understand? He's not forcing people to, and he's not threatening to suplex our mothers if we don't.
You speak of haters as if you aren't one. And just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a "white knight". If anything, your blind defense of iNcontroL's silly opinion makes YOU the white knight.
You should apply critical thinking before entering discussions, instead of leaping onto Geoff's bandwagon of hate, jealousy, and angst.
He threatened to lower the prize pools if that number wasn't met, not the same as suplexing our mothers but it's just as bad. Fuck off.
I'm not a hater, nor am I a white knight. If anything, I'm a black knight.
It was a joke! I mentioned this in a previous post! No sane person would threaten to lower prize pools for their most popular sport!
He never threatened anything, he just stated point blank that if that number was too high to reach then he'd have to lower the prize pools. Not a threat, just a fact pure and simple. If the way he said it got your panties all twisted, grow a thicker skin. Not everything is always gonna be wrapped in rainbows and niceness for you. Like I said before I appreciate Sundance's straightforwardness and honesty And yeah u are a white knight as evidenced by your fanboism of incontrol
If you don't think a HD stream for however long you buy it for is worth it, dont buy it. No need to come here and whine if you personally think it's not good enough of a product for you.
I'm not whining. I'm originally in this discussion because people were bandwagon hating on iNcontroL.
On July 31 2011 07:27 greendestiny wrote: Haha, did anyone else notice the subtle undertones in this thread in the vein of "MLG is too big to fail!" and "We must bail it out with our subscriptions!"?
I'm reminded of an article over on ArsTechnica, titled (I paraphrase) "Blocking our ads = stealing" where users were kindly asked if they could "Whitelist our site, because you see, we're having financial difficulties, we can't pay salaries to our staff, and besides, we tested blocking users who have ad blocking, it worked, and you don't want us to do it, now do you?" But what truly shocked me were elitistic responses from people who forced themselves to watch ads and tried to present it as something good: "Yeah, man I watch ads, I'm so cool, block the damn freeloaders".
I think the same reply I gave there applies here:
If your business (MLG in this case) is struggling financially and eventually does fail, it will be because whoever was in charge, made the wrong decisions, over and over again. It will have absolutely nothing with me, you or neighbor next door not paying to watch it.
Read and re-read the previous parapgraph until it sinks in. It is not your fault MLG is not making enough profit.
And then we have these kinds of posts in this thread:
On July 29 2011 14:27 Charger wrote: If the low quality is terrible as always, they should have no problems :p That's the only reason I paid at least.
Dude, you're paying for a service in advance. That's a ripoff in and of itself. Do you have any common sense? Sundance just said they are struggling with subscriptions. Do you know why is that? Their free content sucks. I know because I watch it. Do you know what I get? Low & Medium quality streams with ads and ... That's about it?
To me, that says "Pony up the cash or fuck off".
How on earth is MLG supposed to become popular outside of hardcore SC2 players pool (which you apparently belong to, since you bought MLG pass) if their free content is crappy quality stream with a gray strip taking top 1/5 of the screen?
I don't care that much about quality, as long as video isn't choppy and audio quality is decent, I think I can watch just about anything. In fact, I neither have the hardware nor bandwidth for High quality (720p on Youtube is unwatchable for me, 480p is ok). But for spoiled Westerner, if it isn't 1080p, he won't even bother with it (I'm aware you can see this as possible stereotype, but I think it's generally correct).
Imagine some casual player, he never played SC2, but heard of it from his friends, thinking to himself "Hey, MLG, let's see what this is about ... oh nice, free stream ... wtf quality" *closes tab* and never looks back. That's a potential subscriber lost for good.
If I were able to make decisions related to MLG, I would make Low & Medium & High & Ultra quality streams available for free, and have premium content for paying subscribers (interviews with players, post-game analysis, mail notifications, VODs whatever). I would forgo short-term profit for long-term advertisement and word of mouth between people who never before played SC saying to one another "Man, they have Ultra quality stream for free, imagine what they have for paying subscribers" or "I have nothing else to do, but I'm gonna watch MLG even though I don't know what this SC is, just because it's free Ultra quality".
But, but, but, greendestiny, you live in a fantasy land where money grows on trees. This isn't how businesses work
This is how I would make it and may heavens fall. And I'm sure subscription base would explode.
Unfortunately thats false. Anything good is built upon sweat tears and suffering. Thankfully during my lifetime i was able to witness it myself during the rise of Mixed Martial Arts.
Well false is incorrect. You're right. but without people paying for subpar material, without sundance begging for money, there will be no near future in esports.
It was a joke! I mentioned this in a previous post! No sane person would threaten to lower prize pools for their most popular sport!
THINK BEFORE YOU POST.
If it was a joke then I'm in the wrong. If it wasn't a joke then shut the fuck up. Simple as that, yeah? The fact that he's joking about this shit in the first place makes me wonder what the hell he's doing. but that's just me.
There's bandwagon hatred, and then there's rational criticism.
He wasn't in the same position as the person he criticized, it was similar but nowhere near the same. Everything he said was valid. That picture is the perfect representation of the ignorance in this thread. Thank you for reposting it.
There's bandwagon hatred, and then there's rational criticism.
He wasn't in the same position as the person he criticized, it was similar but nowhere near the same. Everything he said was valid. That picture is the perfect representation of the ignorance in this thread. Thank you for reposting it.
but hotbit isnt the organizer of TSL he is just a guy who has sick obsing skills.
Its amazing how quickly you ready to leap to incontrols defense and completely rationalize his hypocritical behavior at every turn, yet you aren't a white knight??
On July 31 2011 08:34 Slider954 wrote: Its amazing how quickly you ready to leap to incontrols defense and completely rationalize his hypocritical behavior at every turn, yet you aren't a white knight??
and BTW now he's 0-4 courtesy of Cruncher.
How does it make him hypocritical? He's not even with the NASL anymore.
This time I'm serious. No more posts. I can't handle this shit.
iNcontroL: even if you're 0-4 you're 4-0 in Idra's heart, remember that.
There's bandwagon hatred, and then there's rational criticism.
He wasn't in the same position as the person he criticized, it was similar but nowhere near the same. Everything he said was valid. That picture is the perfect representation of the ignorance in this thread. Thank you for reposting it.
Hotbid criticizes NASL, Geoff is butthurt, says that criticizing other leagues is "not classy"
Geoff criticizes MLG, gets called out, claims it's perfectly fine to criticize other leagues.
Textbook hypocrisy. Stop white knighting, bro. See ya.
On July 31 2011 06:14 frozenrb wrote: Yea, and games can be delayed 30 minuters due the "technical problems" and then can't wait 30 minutes? Are you kiding me ? Rules?
What you fail to realize is that the pro and open bracket run on much different time constraints. White-Ra was 20 minutes late and believe me no one wanted to have to DQ him, since we saw him earlier that day.
And it's not like it would make any sense to DQ players when MLGs having technical problems so that's a pretty bad conparison.
The logic in this thread is ridiculous, Sundance saying they need to sell more stream passes to raise the prize pool. Yeah because if he was making enough money to increase the prize pool he would just up and say no we've sold enough now, don't worry everyone, its not like he running a businesss which was created to make profit, its not for the glory of ESPORTS. Noone seems to want to debate over how much MLG spend on bringing over korean players, and generally not even the best koreans, just a random smattering, I cant wait for everyone to get wise to how little the pro themselves are being played and for them to say yeah MLG has a great atmosphere and crowd, but is it really worth it for such a huge number of players and so little prize pool to fight over, especially the europeans and koreans and koreans in the open bracket whos teams are spending so much to send them over for a small chance at a really small prize pool. Probably won't be until the end of the season though so everyone can take their shot at the big prize.
Im done wit hthis thread and topic til then everyone just seems to want to take a little snippet of whatever I post and argue over one small semantic rather than the main issue at hand being that the players deserve more more and compared to other international tournaments of this level MLG is by far the lowest paying.
Geoff hasent done anything other then place low in his token seeded spot, while making money off Gosucoaching, gosuguide ( where people have been ripped off irl ).
Total biscuit uses his stream revenues to make more tourmaments, has a bunch of free vids on youtube.
- Geoff says he is a bad caster and in it for the money ... HYPOCRITE
Geoff uses a fuckload of swearwords and insults people pretty bad, as well as revealing embarassing things about their lives, mimics people in an offensive way.
- Geoff says destiny should act more manner and tries to get the community on a witchhunt to rid SC2 from people like that ... HYPOCRITE
100k paid memberships is a bullet point on a presentation to potential sponsors. There is nothing to suggest that MLG depends on membership fees to stay in business or that the prize pool is directly affected by those fees. Sure it's affected, but indirectly as that headline number of 100k will be used to leverage more money from sponsors.
Geoff is plain bad at the game and his MLG seed due to the time where in performed well when nobody was playing the game yet. If he were to go down to the open, I'm note even sure he could make it today. And an Hypocrite. Time to go now.
There's bandwagon hatred, and then there's rational criticism.
He wasn't in the same position as the person he criticized, it was similar but nowhere near the same. Everything he said was valid. That picture is the perfect representation of the ignorance in this thread. Thank you for reposting it.
Hotbid criticizes NASL, Geoff is butthurt, says that criticizing other leagues is "not classy"
Geoff criticizes MLG, gets called out, claims it's perfectly fine to criticize other leagues.
Textbook hypocrisy. Stop white knighting, bro. See ya.
This. So far I haven't seen any credible defense for his hypocrisy. The people glorifying iNcontroL on the simple nuance that he wasn't personally responsible for NASL's failures seem to miss the point. His association with NASL is beside the point. He claims criticizing other leagues isn't classy and turns around and criticizes MLG. What a fucking child.
Even though I like Incontrol as a person since he is pretty hilarious in some of the shows he has been on but his play at MLG is bitterly disappointing......lot of good that training did him
boot camps are publicity. I didn't expect massive improvement at all from it. Even when they move into the new house in Bel Air, I highly doubt they will reap the rewards in big ways unless they take it incredibly seriously and do the time. Even then, meh so really I never expect anything much from such things. Sure, now they have PUMA but one player won't change the entire team chemistry.
I find it interesting that he would propose this to the fans (stream buyers) rather than the advertisers. If you want to see your viewer count go up keep appealing to the fans. MLG is doing an amazing job of that so far so if they just keep focused on that everything else will work out nicely.
There's bandwagon hatred, and then there's rational criticism.
He wasn't in the same position as the person he criticized, it was similar but nowhere near the same. Everything he said was valid. That picture is the perfect representation of the ignorance in this thread. Thank you for reposting it.
but hotbit isnt the organizer of TSL he is just a guy who has sick obsing skills.
If only he had sick portal skills.
And as far as this topic goes... businesses need money to run. Sundance pretty strongly implied that if subscriptions reach 100,000, that money is going to support MLG in other ways than JUST a prize pool increase. Seriously now, MLG has not spared a single dime when it comes to fixing their shit and putting things together. Running huge events like this is neither easy nor cheap - they aren't exactly embezzling the money they have to work with. And the millions they have to run with this year is venture capital - meaning somebody [a collective somebody, most likely] invested in them and expects them to be a company that is capable of generating revenue to offset their expenses. I dare say that NASL didn't have anywhere NEAR the operating costs of MLG - convention centers are NOT cheap.
It's not a threat that Sundance makes when he says that if they can't reach 100k then he's going to have to lower prize pools next year - it's evidence that they will NOT be able to afford to continue spending money at the rate at which they currently do if they aren't generating close to enough revenue to offset it. Currently, their budget is ... $50m? 100k*30 is only 3m, in addition to showing advertisers that it's worth paying for ads (since they can show that there's a reasonable fraction of viewers that are not just looking to freeload.)
I'm buying my long-term pass (forget what they call it) once I get paid next. Just had to pay 6 months of car insurance. -.-;
Oh one more thing - @Sundance Oh, and one thing that'd be really cool, since they aren't releasing replays to the public? Can you release them to Premium members? That'd be awesome!!
isnt the first place prize at Anaheim 5,000...is that some kind of joke or something. If (though failing at) incontrols point was that MLG is this big and have the smallest prize pool... hmmm
I could be completely wrong on everything too
Edit: would getting second even pay for the trip out there... probs not
i dont like incontrol, in fact i very much dislike him. i think he's a troll that thinks too highly of himself, that happened to get a lot of attention because of this failed tournament called NASL.
but what he said to Sundance was correct. i mean, he ridiculed the guy wanting to look like he's doing something special for "esports", while he was actually asking for more money. what is wrong with that?
saying "Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!" fits perfectly. incontrol only said it like it is. sorry sundance.
On July 31 2011 09:50 SC2Joker wrote: isnt the first place prize at Anaheim 5,000...is that some kind of joke or something. If (though failing at) incontrols point was that MLG is this big and have the smallest prize pool... hmmm
I could be completely wrong on everything too
Edit: would getting second even pay for the trip out there... probs not
Prizes are pretty heavily weighted towards the yearly national championship, which players are also currently battling for seeded spots. The prize pool for that is 10x the size.
On July 31 2011 09:51 snailz wrote: i dont like incontrol, in fact i very much dislike him. i think he's a troll that thinks too highly of himself, that happened to get a lot of attention because of this failed tournament called NASL.
but what he said to Sundance was correct. i mean, he ridiculed the guy wanting to look like he's doing something special for "esports", while he was actually asking for more money. what is wrong with that?
saying "Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!" fits perfectly. incontrol only said it like it is. sorry sundance.
p.s. mlg prize pool for starcraft2 is shamefull.
Yeah, but these are like mini-tournaments though. I think MLG must spend a lot of money running the event with proper production and adequate infrastructure etc. I do think that they should devote more of their budget to the prize-pool, but why does that matter when sponsors are willing to send their players there anyway? It's not like we're lacking in big names. Hopefully, next year MLG will increase the prize-pool overall though, so players like DIMAGA and Kas, etc. might come over to compete as well.
I much prefer having like 6 (?) MLGs a year with practically the best players in the world competing, and a fantastic streaming service and great crowd ambience than to have a poorly produced, poorly run tournament, happening only 3 times a year, and with heaps of errors because all the money was given to the prize pool.
iNcontroL is quick to criticise other tournament organisers but his own NASL actually has a lot to learn from MLG. The prize pool is low, but that doesn't matter if the sponsors are still willing to send their players. There is literally nothing wrong with MLG's model until/unless players decide not to go since the prize pool is too low. It is not for the spectators to complain (not referring to iNcontroL here).
I do not pay for esports so maybe my opinion does not weight as much, but i think people should consider to put their money elsewhere ( my tip would be homestorycup, because even though the host is goofy, the atmosphere is breathtakingly amazing....offtopic already....) , because
1) there is so much stuff around the games. MLG pays so much for everything...salaries, fees etc. that i would not be suprised if only >5% end up in the prizepool. Does not look efficient to me
2) MLG is not only Sc2 .... If you enjoy all their games halo, Coh and whatever game comes next then sure go support them, but i guess 90% on TL are only interested in sc2...
TL dr (< no idea what that means) :
sc2 is only 1 of 3 games in mlg and out of your money only >5% ( i guessed out of the blue) goes to the players. Is it the toureys or players we want to support?
hehe, im not even discussing if Sundance wanted to sound like a saint (even tho in reality what he was asking was very "selfish"), just saying he came off like that, and i dont mind someone calling him out for that, even if it is incontroll.
i actually think his response was very baller, i like when someone has a vision and doesnt mind getting his hands dirty to see it through. khmfxobosskhm im just not sure it is the right way...
On July 31 2011 10:31 Teejing wrote: yea, if i knew 50% of my membership money goes to the players i actually would start buying them !
anybody knows how much % comes from member compared to sponsors?
It doesn't work that way. If you pay to go watch a sporting event or buy a team jersey, cap you don't decide how much of that money goes to player salaries. Same thing here, when you buy a membership you are supporting esports as a whole, not just one specific part.
Edit: And to answer your earlier post about if MLG is the tourney/games I want to support, absolutely it is, all of it.
i know i cannot make demands, i just wanted to present another extreme with the 50%...since it is way over the top. It just does not sit well with me when everybody want money for esports and less then 10% reaches the players that is all.
It's pretty ridiculous to hate on what InControl said. He was just the first person to point out what everyone was thinking after seeing Sundance's post.
It would be different if Sundance set the goal as 150k concurrent viewers or 30 million totals views etc.... like a general way to show your support and the MLG's growth. But offering to raise the prize pool for 1 million dollars is absurd and just guarantees that I'll keep paying for GSL and never for an MLG.
I guess ad revenue doesn't exist this thread has inspired me to look into adblocker.
On July 31 2011 10:28 Teejing wrote: I do not pay for esports so maybe my opinion does not weight as much, but i think people should consider to put their money elsewhere ( my tip would be homestorycup, because even though the host is goofy, the atmosphere is breathtakingly amazing....offtopic already....) , because
1) there is so much stuff around the games. MLG pays so much for everything...salaries, fees etc. that i would not be suprised if only >5% end up in the prizepool. Does not look efficient to me
2) MLG is not only Sc2 .... If you enjoy all their games halo, Coh and whatever game comes next then sure go support them, but i guess 90% on TL are only interested in sc2...
TL dr (< no idea what that means) :
sc2 is only 1 of 3 games in mlg and out of your money only >5% ( i guessed out of the blue) goes to the players. Is it the toureys or players we want to support?
How about both? Without tournaments there won't be any players to support, so saying that you don't want to support tournaments only players is flat out stupid.
I think people are missing that sundance simply said they intend to raise the prize pool if they manage to get enough subscriptions to fund it. Just because they also have more income because of that doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
honestly i put down my membership and this is my first time actually watching MLG and its been awesome. Why i gave MLG my money? Simply because i support e-sports and want it to grow and i support the players who train for 5-12 hours to win and give us entertainment.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
This is why we can't have nice things.
Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm writing this as a fan of yours. I'm probably your biggest fan, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your E-Sports career. ♥
We all want E-Sports to be a successful, booming industry that blows the world away. I think we all forget sometimes that E-Sports is a business. There is no reason for anyone -- including Sundance -- to spend their time and money on something that will not be profitable.
Facts:
E-Sports isn't about video games or the players.
Hospitals aren't about helping people.
Weapons development companies aren't about securing the nation.
Oil isn't about getting people from point A to point B.
Businesses, of all types, are about making money.
Sundance gave us his goal. Told us what his business plan was. He was... transparent. Like we claim we would like to see others be when it comes to these things. 100,000 subscriptions sounds like a lot. But how many people watch the MLG events in a year? How many more will watch now that the GSL Exchange Program is in place?
He wasn't saying "Give us $3,000,000 and we'll make the prize pool higher!"
He was saying "I need to know E-Sports is a valid industry, and StarCraft 2 is a valid medium for E-Sports, before we move ahead with our support of it."
This same type of goal has most likely been set by the GSL, NASL, and other organizations that offer subscription based services. But they haven't been made public.
Also, we haven't been told (I believe) how many subscriptions they have sold. For all we know, we could be half way there, and the membership option hasn't even been around very long.
At the end of the day, if you want E-Sports to be a successful industry, it will need to be a profitable one. To mock this, is to mock E-Sports itself. Is his goal of 100,000 people unreasonably high? I suppose we'd need to see MLG's full financial documentation to know. But if E-Sports doesn't have 100,000 consumers that are willing to pay, it will never be successful.
Imagine any other industry that appealed to less than 100,000 people. It would fail in a week. Support E-Sports.
Buy a GOMTV.net subscription. Buy a NASL Season 2 subscription. Buy an MLG Gold Pass.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
This is why we can't have nice things.
Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm writing this as a fan of yours. I'm probably your biggest fan, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your E-Sports career. ♥
We all want E-Sports to be a successful, booming industry that blows the world away. I think we all forget sometimes that E-Sports is a business. There is no reason for anyone -- including Sundance -- to spend their time and money on something that will not be profitable.
Facts:
E-Sports isn't about video games or the players.
Hospitals aren't about helping people.
Weapons development companies aren't about securing the nation.
Oil isn't about getting people from point A to point B.
Businesses, of all types, are about making money.
Sundance gave us his goal. Told us what his business plan was. He was... transparent. Like we claim we would like to see others be when it comes to these things. 100,000 subscriptions sounds like a lot. But how many people watch the MLG events in a year? How many more will watch now that the GSL Exchange Program is in place?
He wasn't saying "Give us $3,000,000 and we'll make the prize pool higher!"
He was saying "I need to know E-Sports is a valid industry, and StarCraft 2 is a valid medium for E-Sports, before we move ahead with our support of it."
This same type of goal has most likely been set by the GSL, NASL, and other organizations that offer subscription based services. But they haven't been made public.
Also, we haven't been told (I believe) how many subscriptions they have sold. For all we know, we could be half way there, and the membership option hasn't even been around very long.
At the end of the day, if you want E-Sports to be a successful industry, it will need to be a profitable one. To mock this, is to mock E-Sports itself. Is his goal of 100,000 people unreasonably high? I suppose we'd need to see MLG's full financial documentation to know. But if E-Sports doesn't have 100,000 consumers that are willing to pay, it will never be successful.
Imagine any other industry that appealed to less than 100,000 people. It would fail in a week. Support E-Sports.
Buy a GOMTV.net subscription. Buy a NASL Season 2 subscription. Buy an MLG Gold Pass.
It's things like this that make you one of my favorite posters on here Chargelot.
On a side note, I will probably be buying a pass after this MLG. Mostly because I'm curious about how far we are already, and because I haven't gotten next weeks paycheck yet...lol. I've yet to buy a GOMTV pass, but I have for NASL. I'm not normally awake at 4 in the morning so I don't normally get to see the games lol.
edit: Has anyone seen what they are offering for the pass? It's not like your getting hosed. There is a ton of awesome stuff with it, well worth the 30 bucks.
this thread seems legit. i just wanted to thank you all for doing so much for esports. you all come across as heroes in my eyes. if we didn't have socially powerless people like you guys policing the internet for one man, i don't believe i would sleep soundly at night.
much of the problem here is that we come from a nerd culture. a culture where people like mr. incontrol are untouchable from anything but vile verbal assaults behind aliases on the internet. don't you guys feel awkward when borderline homoeroticly assaulting someone from the shadows so often?
you seem to care very deeply about geoff. to the point where you now have a huge interest in his religious beliefs, sexual encounters, weight, and personality. i feel you are entitled to not like the guy, but from that point on, i don't see why you think anyone gives a fuck what you think.
back when we used to lynch people in america, it was always out of hate, of fear, and insecurity. never was it justified. no matter what the victim did. i don't view this as much different at it's core.
for some reason the majority of you feel that if you directly insult incontrol, you are going to change him, or something beyond your control but within his. i assure you that this will never happen using those methods.
whenever this bandwagon fires up i can't help but think of guys like westboro baptist. the truth is that people such as yourselves are just waiting for an excuse. it's become very transparent. people on the internet love a good argument. even if they have to piss lighter fluid on the fire.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
This is why we can't have nice things.
Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm writing this as a fan of yours. I'm probably your biggest fan, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your E-Sports career. ♥
We all want E-Sports to be a successful, booming industry that blows the world away. I think we all forget sometimes that E-Sports is a business. There is no reason for anyone -- including Sundance -- to spend their time and money on something that will not be profitable.
Facts:
E-Sports isn't about video games or the players.
Hospitals aren't about helping people.
Weapons development companies aren't about securing the nation.
Oil isn't about getting people from point A to point B.
Businesses, of all types, are about making money.
Sundance gave us his goal. Told us what his business plan was. He was... transparent. Like we claim we would like to see others be when it comes to these things. 100,000 subscriptions sounds like a lot. But how many people watch the MLG events in a year? How many more will watch now that the GSL Exchange Program is in place?
He wasn't saying "Give us $3,000,000 and we'll make the prize pool higher!"
He was saying "I need to know E-Sports is a valid industry, and StarCraft 2 is a valid medium for E-Sports, before we move ahead with our support of it."
This same type of goal has most likely been set by the GSL, NASL, and other organizations that offer subscription based services. But they haven't been made public.
Also, we haven't been told (I believe) how many subscriptions they have sold. For all we know, we could be half way there, and the membership option hasn't even been around very long.
At the end of the day, if you want E-Sports to be a successful industry, it will need to be a profitable one. To mock this, is to mock E-Sports itself. Is his goal of 100,000 people unreasonably high? I suppose we'd need to see MLG's full financial documentation to know. But if E-Sports doesn't have 100,000 consumers that are willing to pay, it will never be successful.
Imagine any other industry that appealed to less than 100,000 people. It would fail in a week. Support E-Sports.
Buy a GOMTV.net subscription. Buy a NASL Season 2 subscription. Buy an MLG Gold Pass.
It's things like this that make you one of my favorite posters on here Chargelot.
On a side note, I will probably be buying a pass after this MLG. Mostly because I'm curious about how far we are already, and because I haven't gotten next weeks paycheck yet...lol. I've yet to buy a GOMTV pass, but I have for NASL. I'm not normally awake at 4 in the morning so I don't normally get to see the games lol.
You should definitely get the GOM, precisely because you aren't awake at 4am. The VOD system they have is phenomenal.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
This is why we can't have nice things.
Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm writing this as a fan of yours. I'm probably your biggest fan, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your E-Sports career. ♥
We all want E-Sports to be a successful, booming industry that blows the world away. I think we all forget sometimes that E-Sports is a business. There is no reason for anyone -- including Sundance -- to spend their time and money on something that will not be profitable.
Facts:
E-Sports isn't about video games or the players.
Hospitals aren't about helping people.
Weapons development companies aren't about securing the nation.
Oil isn't about getting people from point A to point B.
Businesses, of all types, are about making money.
Sundance gave us his goal. Told us what his business plan was. He was... transparent. Like we claim we would like to see others be when it comes to these things. 100,000 subscriptions sounds like a lot. But how many people watch the MLG events in a year? How many more will watch now that the GSL Exchange Program is in place?
He wasn't saying "Give us $3,000,000 and we'll make the prize pool higher!"
He was saying "I need to know E-Sports is a valid industry, and StarCraft 2 is a valid medium for E-Sports, before we move ahead with our support of it."
This same type of goal has most likely been set by the GSL, NASL, and other organizations that offer subscription based services. But they haven't been made public.
Also, we haven't been told (I believe) how many subscriptions they have sold. For all we know, we could be half way there, and the membership option hasn't even been around very long.
At the end of the day, if you want E-Sports to be a successful industry, it will need to be a profitable one. To mock this, is to mock E-Sports itself. Is his goal of 100,000 people unreasonably high? I suppose we'd need to see MLG's full financial documentation to know. But if E-Sports doesn't have 100,000 consumers that are willing to pay, it will never be successful.
Imagine any other industry that appealed to less than 100,000 people. It would fail in a week. Support E-Sports.
Buy a GOMTV.net subscription. Buy a NASL Season 2 subscription. Buy an MLG Gold Pass.
It's things like this that make you one of my favorite posters on here Chargelot.
On a side note, I will probably be buying a pass after this MLG. Mostly because I'm curious about how far we are already, and because I haven't gotten next weeks paycheck yet...lol. I've yet to buy a GOMTV pass, but I have for NASL. I'm not normally awake at 4 in the morning so I don't normally get to see the games lol.
You should definitely get the GOM, precisely because you aren't awake at 4am. The VOD system they have is phenomenal.
Guess I'll have to check it out. I love Tastosis lol. But not sure how much I'll even get to watch if I get the pass. With watching NASL, the daily, SotG, Inside The Game, Kings of Tin, and trying to train so that one day I can be in an MLG I'm not sure if I'll have time to watch lol. But it'd be worth it just to hear Dad say "poopfeast420" one more time lol.
To all the people who keep saying things like "the prize pool is shameful!", remember that you also like things like: great quality streams, the best casters available (e.g., flying tastosis from Korea!), nice venues with pretty lighting, booths, stable internet in the value, high production values with flawless sound and screen transitions, a well-run tournament, etc.
The reason MLG can afford to have a smaller prize pool is because, at least for the previous event and the current event, they do everything else so well that players and fans will show up to watch regardless.
MLG is, by far, the best chance for American eSports and SC2 right now. NASL doesn't even come close in terms of sponsorship dollars, venture capital, and organization. But, without the ability to monetize, it isn't going to last.
If you like what you get out of MLG, $30 for a year is virtually nothing. I paid up! =)
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
This is why we can't have nice things.
Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm writing this as a fan of yours. I'm probably your biggest fan, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your E-Sports career. ♥
We all want E-Sports to be a successful, booming industry that blows the world away. I think we all forget sometimes that E-Sports is a business. There is no reason for anyone -- including Sundance -- to spend their time and money on something that will not be profitable.
Facts:
E-Sports isn't about video games or the players.
Hospitals aren't about helping people.
Weapons development companies aren't about securing the nation.
Oil isn't about getting people from point A to point B.
Businesses, of all types, are about making money.
Sundance gave us his goal. Told us what his business plan was. He was... transparent. Like we claim we would like to see others be when it comes to these things. 100,000 subscriptions sounds like a lot. But how many people watch the MLG events in a year? How many more will watch now that the GSL Exchange Program is in place?
He wasn't saying "Give us $3,000,000 and we'll make the prize pool higher!"
He was saying "I need to know E-Sports is a valid industry, and StarCraft 2 is a valid medium for E-Sports, before we move ahead with our support of it."
This same type of goal has most likely been set by the GSL, NASL, and other organizations that offer subscription based services. But they haven't been made public.
Also, we haven't been told (I believe) how many subscriptions they have sold. For all we know, we could be half way there, and the membership option hasn't even been around very long.
At the end of the day, if you want E-Sports to be a successful industry, it will need to be a profitable one. To mock this, is to mock E-Sports itself. Is his goal of 100,000 people unreasonably high? I suppose we'd need to see MLG's full financial documentation to know. But if E-Sports doesn't have 100,000 consumers that are willing to pay, it will never be successful.
Imagine any other industry that appealed to less than 100,000 people. It would fail in a week. Support E-Sports.
Buy a GOMTV.net subscription. Buy a NASL Season 2 subscription. Buy an MLG Gold Pass.
It's things like this that make you one of my favorite posters on here Chargelot.
On a side note, I will probably be buying a pass after this MLG. Mostly because I'm curious about how far we are already, and because I haven't gotten next weeks paycheck yet...lol. I've yet to buy a GOMTV pass, but I have for NASL. I'm not normally awake at 4 in the morning so I don't normally get to see the games lol.
You should definitely get the GOM, precisely because you aren't awake at 4am. The VOD system they have is phenomenal.
Guess I'll have to check it out. I love Tastosis lol. But not sure how much I'll even get to watch if I get the pass. With watching NASL, the daily, SotG, Inside The Game, Kings of Tin, and trying to train so that one day I can be in an MLG I'm not sure if I'll have time to watch lol. But it'd be worth it just to hear Dad say "poopfeast420" one more time lol.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
This is why we can't have nice things.
Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm writing this as a fan of yours. I'm probably your biggest fan, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your E-Sports career. ♥
We all want E-Sports to be a successful, booming industry that blows the world away. I think we all forget sometimes that E-Sports is a business. There is no reason for anyone -- including Sundance -- to spend their time and money on something that will not be profitable.
Facts:
E-Sports isn't about video games or the players.
Hospitals aren't about helping people.
Weapons development companies aren't about securing the nation.
Oil isn't about getting people from point A to point B.
Businesses, of all types, are about making money.
Sundance gave us his goal. Told us what his business plan was. He was... transparent. Like we claim we would like to see others be when it comes to these things. 100,000 subscriptions sounds like a lot. But how many people watch the MLG events in a year? How many more will watch now that the GSL Exchange Program is in place?
He wasn't saying "Give us $3,000,000 and we'll make the prize pool higher!"
He was saying "I need to know E-Sports is a valid industry, and StarCraft 2 is a valid medium for E-Sports, before we move ahead with our support of it."
This same type of goal has most likely been set by the GSL, NASL, and other organizations that offer subscription based services. But they haven't been made public.
Also, we haven't been told (I believe) how many subscriptions they have sold. For all we know, we could be half way there, and the membership option hasn't even been around very long.
At the end of the day, if you want E-Sports to be a successful industry, it will need to be a profitable one. To mock this, is to mock E-Sports itself. Is his goal of 100,000 people unreasonably high? I suppose we'd need to see MLG's full financial documentation to know. But if E-Sports doesn't have 100,000 consumers that are willing to pay, it will never be successful.
Imagine any other industry that appealed to less than 100,000 people. It would fail in a week. Support E-Sports.
Buy a GOMTV.net subscription. Buy a NASL Season 2 subscription. Buy an MLG Gold Pass.
I'd like to echo this post and add my own thoughts. MLG has done almost everything they can to improve the spectator experience. Complaints about stream downtime and subpar experiences have been met with the sincerest and humbling apologies. Every iteration of an MLG event since SC2 was added has had a large number of serious technical difficulties, and every next event has seen sweeping changes to address those issues. Sundance has time and time again put his ass on the line to bring us viewers a tremendously awesome experience.
To contrast, NASL gives us half-hearted blogs about "how they learned their lessons," then proceed to complain about viewers demanding too much. They hide behind their esport banner whenever criticism arises and blast the community as a whole when a small group of trolls shows up.
Overall, MLG is probably the most devoted out of all the tournaments to bringing SC2 to the fans.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
that's why he tweeted it, b/c it's not a big deal. duh!
but then it was made into a big deal, which i don't see why. he said if they make more money they'll spend more money...i don't see what's causing all this ridiculous commotion.
People should realize that 100,000 subscriptions doesn't just mean the $3,000,000 in profit from us. It's also a major benchmark for the sponsors and advertisements. It means that investing in MLG and in turn MLG investing in SC2 is a prudent venture.
For the SC only purists, know that MLG has supported a lot of friggin games. Like Smash Bros, Gears of War and Rainbow Six. They've taken a decent number of risks in games that led nowhere. The only game to have stuck on the MLG scene is Halo, which is pretty much synonymous with MLG.
SC is their first true break out success since Halo. MLG has been one of the big organizations to promote E sports, and help make the scene what it is today. That may not sound like an important detail but realize that's the reason why we know that MLG is a tourney to keep our eyes on and not the random no name tourney you hear about through SCcasts or check if you're bored. They have name recognition due to their roots and people set aside time to tune into their events, which makes MLG one of the Meccas for pro competition. They're getting a boost from SC but MLG is definitely boosting pro SC's popularity as well.
SC is only 1 game out of 3 that MLG hosts but suffice to say they've done an amazing job with hosting the game, better than many dedicated SC2 tournaments.
I'm sure someone smarter than me has made this point... and i'm only going to read the first 20 pgs so...
100,000 is probably a 'comfort' number of subscribers to pull in more investors/sponsors... I see how it can be perceived as begging for money or a ploy to get a bunch of cash... but there's no real reason to believe that's the case. He's making it pretty simple. The real issue is 'we need lots more subscribers' so he came up with the idea to give the community a solid number he's looking to reach. He could probably find ways to get that many subs w/o promising prize pool increases... just sayin.
Also, fuck incontrol. Act like a pro. Spend more time practicing so you don't bomb tournies. Pros, who are largely under the light, need to act like fuckin pros. FUCK
On July 31 2011 07:27 greendestiny wrote: Haha, did anyone else notice the subtle undertones in this thread in the vein of "MLG is too big to fail!" and "We must bail it out with our subscriptions!"?
I'm reminded of an article over on ArsTechnica, titled (I paraphrase) "Blocking our ads = stealing" where users were kindly asked if they could "Whitelist our site, because you see, we're having financial difficulties, we can't pay salaries to our staff, and besides, we tested blocking users who have ad blocking, it worked, and you don't want us to do it, now do you?" But what truly shocked me were elitistic responses from people who forced themselves to watch ads and tried to present it as something good: "Yeah, man I watch ads, I'm so cool, block the damn freeloaders".
I think the same reply I gave there applies here:
If your business (MLG in this case) is struggling financially and eventually does fail, it will be because whoever was in charge, made the wrong decisions, over and over again. It will have absolutely nothing with me, you or neighbor next door not paying to watch it.
Read and re-read the previous parapgraph until it sinks in. It is not your fault MLG is not making enough profit.
And then we have these kinds of posts in this thread:
On July 29 2011 14:27 Charger wrote: If the low quality is terrible as always, they should have no problems :p That's the only reason I paid at least.
Dude, you're paying for a service in advance. That's a ripoff in and of itself. Do you have any common sense? Sundance just said they are struggling with subscriptions. Do you know why is that? Their free content sucks. I know because I watch it. Do you know what I get? Low & Medium quality streams with ads and ... That's about it?
To me, that says "Pony up the cash or fuck off".
How on earth is MLG supposed to become popular outside of hardcore SC2 players pool (which you apparently belong to, since you bought MLG pass) if their free content is crappy quality stream with a gray strip taking top 1/5 of the screen?
I don't care that much about quality, as long as video isn't choppy and audio quality is decent, I think I can watch just about anything. In fact, I neither have the hardware nor bandwidth for High quality (720p on Youtube is unwatchable for me, 480p is ok). But for spoiled Westerner, if it isn't 1080p, he won't even bother with it (I'm aware you can see this as possible stereotype, but I think it's generally correct).
Imagine some casual player, he never played SC2, but heard of it from his friends, thinking to himself "Hey, MLG, let's see what this is about ... oh nice, free stream ... wtf quality" *closes tab* and never looks back. That's a potential subscriber lost for good.
If I were able to make decisions related to MLG, I would make Low & Medium & High & Ultra quality streams available for free, and have premium content for paying subscribers (interviews with players, post-game analysis, mail notifications, VODs whatever). I would forgo short-term profit for long-term advertisement and word of mouth between people who never before played SC saying to one another "Man, they have Ultra quality stream for free, imagine what they have for paying subscribers" or "I have nothing else to do, but I'm gonna watch MLG even though I don't know what this SC is, just because it's free Ultra quality".
But, but, but, greendestiny, you live in a fantasy land where money grows on trees. This isn't how businesses work
This is how I would make it and may heavens fall. And I'm sure subscription base would explode.
Unfortunately thats false. Anything good is built upon sweat tears and suffering. Thankfully during my lifetime i was able to witness it myself during the rise of Mixed Martial Arts.
Well false is incorrect. You're right. but without people paying for subpar material, without sundance begging for money, there will be no near future in esports.
I wonder at what point in my post you went 180°: "You're wrong ... well, you're right" :-)
If these companies cannot get more people to buy their games, then they will grope the wallets of existing customers and see if they can charge those customers more for the same product. And like all entertainment properties that don’t grow their consumer base, they will crash and burn.
On July 31 2011 07:27 greendestiny wrote: Haha, did anyone else notice the subtle undertones in this thread in the vein of "MLG is too big to fail!" and "We must bail it out with our subscriptions!"?
I'm reminded of an article over on ArsTechnica, titled (I paraphrase) "Blocking our ads = stealing" where users were kindly asked if they could "Whitelist our site, because you see, we're having financial difficulties, we can't pay salaries to our staff, and besides, we tested blocking users who have ad blocking, it worked, and you don't want us to do it, now do you?" But what truly shocked me were elitistic responses from people who forced themselves to watch ads and tried to present it as something good: "Yeah, man I watch ads, I'm so cool, block the damn freeloaders".
I think the same reply I gave there applies here:
If your business (MLG in this case) is struggling financially and eventually does fail, it will be because whoever was in charge, made the wrong decisions, over and over again. It will have absolutely nothing with me, you or neighbor next door not paying to watch it.
Read and re-read the previous parapgraph until it sinks in. It is not your fault MLG is not making enough profit.
And then we have these kinds of posts in this thread:
On July 29 2011 14:27 Charger wrote: If the low quality is terrible as always, they should have no problems :p That's the only reason I paid at least.
Dude, you're paying for a service in advance. That's a ripoff in and of itself. Do you have any common sense? Sundance just said they are struggling with subscriptions. Do you know why is that? Their free content sucks. I know because I watch it. Do you know what I get? Low & Medium quality streams with ads and ... That's about it?
To me, that says "Pony up the cash or fuck off".
How on earth is MLG supposed to become popular outside of hardcore SC2 players pool (which you apparently belong to, since you bought MLG pass) if their free content is crappy quality stream with a gray strip taking top 1/5 of the screen?
I don't care that much about quality, as long as video isn't choppy and audio quality is decent, I think I can watch just about anything. In fact, I neither have the hardware nor bandwidth for High quality (720p on Youtube is unwatchable for me, 480p is ok). But for spoiled Westerner, if it isn't 1080p, he won't even bother with it (I'm aware you can see this as possible stereotype, but I think it's generally correct).
Imagine some casual player, he never played SC2, but heard of it from his friends, thinking to himself "Hey, MLG, let's see what this is about ... oh nice, free stream ... wtf quality" *closes tab* and never looks back. That's a potential subscriber lost for good.
If I were able to make decisions related to MLG, I would make Low & Medium & High & Ultra quality streams available for free, and have premium content for paying subscribers (interviews with players, post-game analysis, mail notifications, VODs whatever). I would forgo short-term profit for long-term advertisement and word of mouth between people who never before played SC saying to one another "Man, they have Ultra quality stream for free, imagine what they have for paying subscribers" or "I have nothing else to do, but I'm gonna watch MLG even though I don't know what this SC is, just because it's free Ultra quality".
But, but, but, greendestiny, you live in a fantasy land where money grows on trees. This isn't how businesses work
This is how I would make it and may heavens fall. And I'm sure subscription base would explode.
I like you.
Hey, thanks. You know, it takes me a lot of manhours to provide you with the highest-quality posts, so could you please send me $30? It helps eSports grow :-)
On July 31 2011 10:28 Teejing wrote: I do not pay for esports so maybe my opinion does not weight as much, but i think people should consider to put their money elsewhere ( my tip would be homestorycup, because even though the host is goofy, the atmosphere is breathtakingly amazing....offtopic already....) , because
1) there is so much stuff around the games. MLG pays so much for everything...salaries, fees etc. that i would not be suprised if only >5% end up in the prizepool. Does not look efficient to me
2) MLG is not only Sc2 .... If you enjoy all their games halo, Coh and whatever game comes next then sure go support them, but i guess 90% on TL are only interested in sc2...
TL dr (< no idea what that means) :
sc2 is only 1 of 3 games in mlg and out of your money only >5% ( i guessed out of the blue) goes to the players. Is it the toureys or players we want to support?
TL;DR stands for 'Too Long; Didn't Read' and is meant as a summary for people with short attention spans. For example:
If NASL came out with statements about how they need however many subscribers for them to get a certain amount of production quality Sundance would have come out and called them out on it too. Don't fall for his sob story, he is just being defensive.
The right way to ask for community support: GSL- Tasteless telling you to get on twitter.
The mediocre way to get community support: Nasl- Over-hyping and disappointing and then pleading for some spectator patience.
The wrong way to get community support: MLG- After record breaking viewership at events, tell everyone you will refuse to raise prize pools unless 100,000 people give you $30 each.
Sorry MLG staff but this isn't Halo where you're the only dog on the block. The production, competition, prize pool, and accessibility are all major factors on the legitimacy of a Starcraft 2 tournament. All the major tournaments seem to be lacking at least one of those things, and you guys are lucky, because prize pool has the most obvious fix.
i actually would pay for mlg, gsl and nasl if i could download the vods... i know i know i´m a data pack rat... but still, it just seems awful that you actually pay for something you don´t "get". just my 2cents.
So many people expect stuff for free these days...for those of us who are adults and with jobs, this is like asking for nothing. $30 for a year of MLG? It costs $30 for my wife and I to got to a 3D movie.
The real question is how many adults with jobs are eSports fans? How many kids who believe entertainment should be free are going to be willing to pay for a ticket?
Also, all publicity is good publicity, so without this thread, I never would have known they were selling these passes...make them more prominent on the MLG home page please. (Actually, even looking for them, I haven't found where to buy).
On July 31 2011 23:08 -way wrote: i actually would pay for mlg, gsl and nasl if i could download the vods... i know i know i´m a data pack rat... but still, it just seems awful that you actually pay for something you don´t "get". just my 2cents.
The problem is VODs is now you have the content for free everywhere on the web, because people aren't honest.
On July 31 2011 08:34 Slider954 wrote: Its amazing how quickly you ready to leap to incontrols defense and completely rationalize his hypocritical behavior at every turn, yet you aren't a white knight??
and BTW now he's 0-4 courtesy of Cruncher.
I think the real issue is Incontrol is right and people are letting an\ perceived hypocrisy distract from that. I think post more articulate than mine have illustrated that the business practice of asking for money after record breaking streams to do what should have already happened is a little off.
This community is so easily spurred to hate by iNcontroL.
Does anyone remember when constantly begged the NASL viewership to buy a membership as well? Why was that suddenly forgotten? And even then, there was constant mediocrity and they blatantly ignored any and all issues brought to their attention by their fans.
MLG improves 10-fold and now provides the best tournament in NA. And when they include a goal for their viewer-base to increase subscriptions and investment potential, they are attacked? Pathetic, guys.
On July 31 2011 08:34 Slider954 wrote: Its amazing how quickly you ready to leap to incontrols defense and completely rationalize his hypocritical behavior at every turn, yet you aren't a white knight??
and BTW now he's 0-4 courtesy of Cruncher.
I think the real issue is Incontrol is right and people are letting an\ perceived hypocrisy distract from that. I think post more articulate than mine have illustrated that the business practice of asking for money after record breaking streams to do what should have already happened is a little off.
It's not asking for donations, it's advertisement. For fuck's sake, do you people even understand how businesses work?
It IS hypocrisy. Textbook hypocrisy. And your white knighting is blinding you to that fact.
Honestly, it seems iNcontroL simply can't handle that MLG is succeeding where NASL failed miserably. Why else do you think he jumped ship? If it was to practice more... well, we can see how well that went for him.
No. No it is not. Yes, MLG needs to increase their prize pools to be considered a genuine major in the line up of SC2 tournaments. No, more memberships are not going to give them the desperately needed cash to do that. Prize pools are probably less than 1% of their budget. Miniscule.
That tweet is the kind of cynical shit that makes me NOT want to throw money MLG's way. I'd buy a second NASL pass before I'd pay for their stream upgrade.
Edit: what InControl said. I'll go further and address Sundance myself: dick move.
Quick math tells me they hand out 570,000 dollars in prizemoney this year. Actually a little more, but thats about it.
So apparently, MLG has a budget of at least 57 million dollars then.
On July 31 2011 23:08 -way wrote: i actually would pay for mlg, gsl and nasl if i could download the vods... i know i know i´m a data pack rat... but still, it just seems awful that you actually pay for something you don´t "get". just my 2cents.
The problem is VODs is now you have the content for free everywhere on the web, because people aren't honest.
Do you think we should be charged for, say, knowing the scores?
"Hey, lets go to MLG site, I wanna know how that game went ..." *click*
ACCESS DENIED! PREMIUM MEMBERS AREA ONLY! CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT MORE!
Why not?
And when you sign up for it, MLG offers ToS where you agree you will not disclose results to anyone.
I feel people expect BW success while having a product with such ridiculous limitations (no LAN, must fill a form for tournaments etc) and on top of that, MLG adding their own barriers.
Edit: Hardcore SC2 fans will forgive anything to MLG, just because they deliver the content, but for the casual player/viewer, which is the untapped market so far, delivery must be near-perfect and no cost should be spared in making the service as good as possible, before even asking for money.
TL;DR MLG is turtling on one base, soon to be mined out, and complains about low income.
I like how Incontrol is wussing about the prize pool, when he basically does nothing and still "steals" place from better players, who could actually fight for that money. Must be nice being Incontrol)
Why people give you shit, Sundance, is maybe because you continue to disrespect the game. A single player game with multiplayer capability, that will last only untill the next one comes out, like black ops has bigger prizes than the successor of the biggest esport ever. You basically sat in front of several veterans a while ago, not knowing shit about anything SC related, and said that you guys did it all best because you were supposedly the first in NA to do it. That was probably the most influential thing for my opinion . ..carelessly throwing halo rules in. You treat the game seems like it's some other FPS that will come, be popular for a while, you'll suck all the money you can, and it will die.. First of all that is super fucking stupid, and it also shows no respect to the game. Of course I cannot blame you, not a starcraft fan, but a halo one and you cannot respect something you don't understand. Of course because SC2 is probably the only game you have that will endure eventually you'll support it purely as a business move. I'm not trying to insult anyone that's just what image you have created for yourself in my mind.
On August 01 2011 04:24 Talic_Zealot wrote: Why people give you shit, Sundance, is maybe because you continue to disrespect the game. A single player game with multiplayer capability, that will last only untill the next one comes out, like black ops has bigger prizes than the successor of the biggest esport ever. You basically sat in front of several veterans a while ago, not knowing shit about anything SC related, and said that you guys did it all best because you were supposedly the first in NA to do it. That was probably the most influential thing for my opinion . ..carelessly throwing halo rules in. You treat the game seems like it's some other FPS that will come, be popular for a while, you'll suck all the money you can, and it will die.. First of all that is super fucking stupid, and it also shows no respect to the game. Of course I cannot blame you, not a starcraft fan, but a halo one and you cannot respect something you don't understand. Of course because SC2 is probably the only game you have that will endure eventually you'll support it purely as a business move. I'm not trying to insult anyone that's just what image you have created for yourself in my mind.
1. Starcraft ll is now the main stage event.
2. You can't just willy nilly throw around prize money. If Black Ops suddenly became 10x more popular than Starcraft (which, to casual people, it is), and Sundance announced that some prize money from Starcraft would go to Black Ops to accommodate, would you be pissed off? Then don't do it to the Halo and Black Ops people.
3. Calling someone "super fucking stupid" and then later saying you aren't trying to insult them is, well, iNcontroL level hypocrisy.
4. Your rant has absolutely nothing to do with his announcement, and you are simply using this moment to flame someone and make your pants tighter.
5. He's done 10x more for the Starcraft community than you ever will.
6. I'm not trying to insult you, but your rant is super fucking stupid.
The amount of numbers sc2 is getting should already be a lock for a higher prize pool for sc2 next year. it's just depressing seeing so many players leave MLG empty handed because only top 8 get paid. it should be top 32 getting paid with the amount of viewership and spectator passes sc2 brings.
On August 01 2011 04:24 Talic_Zealot wrote: Why people give you shit, Sundance, is maybe because you continue to disrespect the game. A single player game with multiplayer capability, that will last only untill the next one comes out, like black ops has bigger prizes than the successor of the biggest esport ever. You basically sat in front of several veterans a while ago, not knowing shit about anything SC related, and said that you guys did it all best because you were supposedly the first in NA to do it. That was probably the most influential thing for my opinion . ..carelessly throwing halo rules in. You treat the game seems like it's some other FPS that will come, be popular for a while, you'll suck all the money you can, and it will die.. First of all that is super fucking stupid, and it also shows no respect to the game. Of course I cannot blame you, not a starcraft fan, but a halo one and you cannot respect something you don't understand. Of course because SC2 is probably the only game you have that will endure eventually you'll support it purely as a business move. I'm not trying to insult anyone that's just what image you have created for yourself in my mind.
1. Starcraft ll is now the main stage event.
2. You can't just willy nilly throw around prize money. If Black Ops suddenly became 10x more popular than Starcraft (which, to casual people, it is), and Sundance announced that some prize money from Starcraft would go to Black Ops to accommodate, would you be pissed off? Then don't do it to the Halo and Black Ops people.
3. Calling someone "super fucking stupid" and then later saying you aren't trying to insult them is, well, iNcontroL level hypocrisy.
4. Your rant has absolutely nothing to do with his announcement, and you are simply using this moment to flame someone and make your pants tighter. 5. He's done 10x more for the Starcraft community than you ever will.
6. I'm not trying to insult you, but your rant is super fucking stupid.
actually, only a blind man wouldnt give sc2 main stage after columbus.
so i dont know how much he's doing it for the community
On August 01 2011 06:10 thepeonwhocould wrote: I'll give MLG $30 as soon they give me a proper way to watch MLG vods. (Like what GSL has).
Every game of the tournament in vod form. Spoiler free. HD. With a good interface and video player.
This is largely a guess, but GSL, which is run by GOMtv, probably has their VODs in a video player because they're a company that makes software which includes a video player. MLG, NASL are gaming companies, not software companies. They're most likely not going to be able to afford licencing a video player, and certainly aren't able to develop one on their own.
On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote: Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
This is why we can't have nice things.
Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm writing this as a fan of yours. I'm probably your biggest fan, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your E-Sports career. ♥
We all want E-Sports to be a successful, booming industry that blows the world away. I think we all forget sometimes that E-Sports is a business. There is no reason for anyone -- including Sundance -- to spend their time and money on something that will not be profitable.
Facts:
E-Sports isn't about video games or the players.
Hospitals aren't about helping people.
Weapons development companies aren't about securing the nation.
Oil isn't about getting people from point A to point B.
Businesses, of all types, are about making money.
Sundance gave us his goal. Told us what his business plan was. He was... transparent. Like we claim we would like to see others be when it comes to these things. 100,000 subscriptions sounds like a lot. But how many people watch the MLG events in a year? How many more will watch now that the GSL Exchange Program is in place?
He wasn't saying "Give us $3,000,000 and we'll make the prize pool higher!"
He was saying "I need to know E-Sports is a valid industry, and StarCraft 2 is a valid medium for E-Sports, before we move ahead with our support of it."
This same type of goal has most likely been set by the GSL, NASL, and other organizations that offer subscription based services. But they haven't been made public.
Also, we haven't been told (I believe) how many subscriptions they have sold. For all we know, we could be half way there, and the membership option hasn't even been around very long.
At the end of the day, if you want E-Sports to be a successful industry, it will need to be a profitable one. To mock this, is to mock E-Sports itself. Is his goal of 100,000 people unreasonably high? I suppose we'd need to see MLG's full financial documentation to know. But if E-Sports doesn't have 100,000 consumers that are willing to pay, it will never be successful. Imagine any other industry that appealed to less than 100,000 people. It would fail in a week.
Support E-Sports.
Buy a GOMTV.net subscription. Buy a NASL Season 2 subscription. Buy an MLG Gold Pass.
Can I just repeat this part of your post for emphasis? You made a lot of great points, but this one puts it very succinctly.
And yes, we support the tournaments in addition to the players - without tournaments like this one, all we'll have left are small homebrew online tournaments (MLG isn't the only tournament that needs to sell some number of subscriptions) - which means we don't have stuff that gets sponsors thinking E-Sports is worthwhile to invest in, which means players don't get sponsored.
Sundance is awesome for being transparent on how he runs MLG - we should be respecting him for this, not trash-talking him. But I guess this is a reason that most businesses don't publicize their every business practice.
On July 31 2011 02:22 Jayrod wrote: I bought a membership to this for 3 months and now I wish I hadn't. half of what you pay for you dont even get. I can't even get the VODs to show up in HD quality. Then they take away replays. Then I find out I can no longer have both streams up in HD... its like give me a break. You dont sell a product, tell your customers its one thing, then give them something completely different. The one saving grace is the live quality on ultra is probably as good as anything else.
Pretty much agree with all of this, except I paid for the $30 year membership..
1) They are a business who wants to make money 2) MLG doesn't compensate the players at all. I believe all the prize pool is derived from entry fees into the tourney. 256 open bracket players x $70 an entry = $17920 which is more than they pay out in prizes. 3) Players still come
If MLG generates 3 million in revenue just from direct streaming revenue (not including commercials, ticket sales, concessions or sponsors), I still don't see why people feel they're obligated into making the prize pool better. No sporting organization has ever done this, which is why every league in the world has player unions to represent the players.
The only reason, which is valid, is to get better caliber players to play in the tourney.
I think it's pretty obvious that MLG would need to up the prize pool significantly in order to be a premiere league with the top players in the world willing to travel and play in North America.
However, overall I think the business model of MLG is more like a LAN party than a rock concert. They players pay for their own prizes, and the fees from ticket sales and misc revenue was to pay for rent, salaries of the workers who organize it, streaming costs, equipment costs and marketing.
On August 01 2011 04:24 Talic_Zealot wrote: Why people give you shit, Sundance, is maybe because you continue to disrespect the game. A single player game with multiplayer capability, that will last only untill the next one comes out, like black ops has bigger prizes than the successor of the biggest esport ever. You basically sat in front of several veterans a while ago, not knowing shit about anything SC related, and said that you guys did it all best because you were supposedly the first in NA to do it. That was probably the most influential thing for my opinion . ..carelessly throwing halo rules in. You treat the game seems like it's some other FPS that will come, be popular for a while, you'll suck all the money you can, and it will die.. First of all that is super fucking stupid, and it also shows no respect to the game. Of course I cannot blame you, not a starcraft fan, but a halo one and you cannot respect something you don't understand. Of course because SC2 is probably the only game you have that will endure eventually you'll support it purely as a business move. I'm not trying to insult anyone that's just what image you have created for yourself in my mind.
1. Starcraft ll is now the main stage event.
2. You can't just willy nilly throw around prize money. If Black Ops suddenly became 10x more popular than Starcraft (which, to casual people, it is), and Sundance announced that some prize money from Starcraft would go to Black Ops to accommodate, would you be pissed off? Then don't do it to the Halo and Black Ops people.
3. Calling someone "super fucking stupid" and then later saying you aren't trying to insult them is, well, iNcontroL level hypocrisy.
4. Your rant has absolutely nothing to do with his announcement, and you are simply using this moment to flame someone and make your pants tighter.
5. He's done 10x more for the Starcraft community than you ever will.
6. I'm not trying to insult you, but your rant is super fucking stupid.
I attended my first MLG at Anaheim and seeing the drastic difference in numbers between Black Ops/Halo spectators and Starcraft 2 spectators, I don't believe all the prize money should be equal. There were less than 50 spectators at Call of Duty 80-90% of the event; 3-4x that for halo and more than 50x that for SC2. SC2 is the obvious attention grabber here, more people are coming to see the SC2 players, why shouldn't they be rightfully awarded for their pull in attendance?
I'm not ragging on Black Ops or Halo in the slightest, I just believe that fair is fair.
On August 01 2011 04:24 Talic_Zealot wrote: Why people give you shit, Sundance, is maybe because you continue to disrespect the game. A single player game with multiplayer capability, that will last only untill the next one comes out, like black ops has bigger prizes than the successor of the biggest esport ever. You basically sat in front of several veterans a while ago, not knowing shit about anything SC related, and said that you guys did it all best because you were supposedly the first in NA to do it. That was probably the most influential thing for my opinion . ..carelessly throwing halo rules in. You treat the game seems like it's some other FPS that will come, be popular for a while, you'll suck all the money you can, and it will die.. First of all that is super fucking stupid, and it also shows no respect to the game. Of course I cannot blame you, not a starcraft fan, but a halo one and you cannot respect something you don't understand. Of course because SC2 is probably the only game you have that will endure eventually you'll support it purely as a business move. I'm not trying to insult anyone that's just what image you have created for yourself in my mind.
1. Starcraft ll is now the main stage event.
2. You can't just willy nilly throw around prize money. If Black Ops suddenly became 10x more popular than Starcraft (which, to casual people, it is), and Sundance announced that some prize money from Starcraft would go to Black Ops to accommodate, would you be pissed off? Then don't do it to the Halo and Black Ops people.
3. Calling someone "super fucking stupid" and then later saying you aren't trying to insult them is, well, iNcontroL level hypocrisy.
4. Your rant has absolutely nothing to do with his announcement, and you are simply using this moment to flame someone and make your pants tighter.
5. He's done 10x more for the Starcraft community than you ever will.
6. I'm not trying to insult you, but your rant is super fucking stupid.
I attended my first MLG at Anaheim and seeing the drastic difference in numbers between Black Ops/Halo spectators and Starcraft 2 spectators, I don't believe all the prize money should be equal. There were less than 50 spectators at Call of Duty 80-90% of the event; 3-4x that for halo and more than 50x that for SC2. SC2 is the obvious attention grabber here, more people are coming to see the SC2 players, why shouldn't they be rightfully awarded for their pull in attendance?
I'm not ragging on Black Ops or Halo in the slightest, I just believe that fair is fair.
i agree. black ops isn't going anywhere, MLG's gamebattles online league has the most black ops players/teams, yet the black ops event stream numbers/spectators/player numbers are the fcuking worst. I just don't see any growth in black ops at all.
sc2 is just way too big right now. and its a shame that high level players like idra, drewbie, ect ect don't even get paid for making top 32 or top 16 or w.e.... this is slave money. sc2 deserves more with the stream numbers and spectators.
On August 03 2011 16:09 jmbthirteen wrote: Isn't the black ops money from sony?
Yes, all the prize money for Black ops is from Sony and thats the only reason Black ops is on the circuit. If you guys want the prize pool to go up, Get the league pass or convince a sponsor to put money in the SC2 prize pool.
On August 01 2011 04:24 Talic_Zealot wrote: Why people give you shit, Sundance, is maybe because you continue to disrespect the game. A single player game with multiplayer capability, that will last only untill the next one comes out, like black ops has bigger prizes than the successor of the biggest esport ever. You basically sat in front of several veterans a while ago, not knowing shit about anything SC related, and said that you guys did it all best because you were supposedly the first in NA to do it. That was probably the most influential thing for my opinion . ..carelessly throwing halo rules in. You treat the game seems like it's some other FPS that will come, be popular for a while, you'll suck all the money you can, and it will die.. First of all that is super fucking stupid, and it also shows no respect to the game. Of course I cannot blame you, not a starcraft fan, but a halo one and you cannot respect something you don't understand. Of course because SC2 is probably the only game you have that will endure eventually you'll support it purely as a business move. I'm not trying to insult anyone that's just what image you have created for yourself in my mind.
1. Starcraft ll is now the main stage event.
2. You can't just willy nilly throw around prize money. If Black Ops suddenly became 10x more popular than Starcraft (which, to casual people, it is), and Sundance announced that some prize money from Starcraft would go to Black Ops to accommodate, would you be pissed off? Then don't do it to the Halo and Black Ops people.
3. Calling someone "super fucking stupid" and then later saying you aren't trying to insult them is, well, iNcontroL level hypocrisy.
4. Your rant has absolutely nothing to do with his announcement, and you are simply using this moment to flame someone and make your pants tighter.
5. He's done 10x more for the Starcraft community than you ever will.
6. I'm not trying to insult you, but your rant is super fucking stupid.
I attended my first MLG at Anaheim and seeing the drastic difference in numbers between Black Ops/Halo spectators and Starcraft 2 spectators, I don't believe all the prize money should be equal. There were less than 50 spectators at Call of Duty 80-90% of the event; 3-4x that for halo and more than 50x that for SC2. SC2 is the obvious attention grabber here, more people are coming to see the SC2 players, why shouldn't they be rightfully awarded for their pull in attendance?
I'm not ragging on Black Ops or Halo in the slightest, I just believe that fair is fair.
If you see the Halo second station, there're about 20 ppl watched team like fnatic only. Just so damn small. SC2 audience is 5 times more than Halo and COD combined on the last day and still not even enough seats and places to watch the game.
So eventhough I understand from the business view, I gotta say SC2 should add higher price money for the players that go all the way here.
On August 01 2011 04:24 Talic_Zealot wrote: Why people give you shit, Sundance, is maybe because you continue to disrespect the game. A single player game with multiplayer capability, that will last only untill the next one comes out, like black ops has bigger prizes than the successor of the biggest esport ever. You basically sat in front of several veterans a while ago, not knowing shit about anything SC related, and said that you guys did it all best because you were supposedly the first in NA to do it. That was probably the most influential thing for my opinion . ..carelessly throwing halo rules in. You treat the game seems like it's some other FPS that will come, be popular for a while, you'll suck all the money you can, and it will die.. First of all that is super fucking stupid, and it also shows no respect to the game. Of course I cannot blame you, not a starcraft fan, but a halo one and you cannot respect something you don't understand. Of course because SC2 is probably the only game you have that will endure eventually you'll support it purely as a business move. I'm not trying to insult anyone that's just what image you have created for yourself in my mind.
1. Starcraft ll is now the main stage event.
2. You can't just willy nilly throw around prize money. If Black Ops suddenly became 10x more popular than Starcraft (which, to casual people, it is), and Sundance announced that some prize money from Starcraft would go to Black Ops to accommodate, would you be pissed off? Then don't do it to the Halo and Black Ops people.
3. Calling someone "super fucking stupid" and then later saying you aren't trying to insult them is, well, iNcontroL level hypocrisy.
4. Your rant has absolutely nothing to do with his announcement, and you are simply using this moment to flame someone and make your pants tighter.
5. He's done 10x more for the Starcraft community than you ever will.
6. I'm not trying to insult you, but your rant is super fucking stupid.
I attended my first MLG at Anaheim and seeing the drastic difference in numbers between Black Ops/Halo spectators and Starcraft 2 spectators, I don't believe all the prize money should be equal. There were less than 50 spectators at Call of Duty 80-90% of the event; 3-4x that for halo and more than 50x that for SC2. SC2 is the obvious attention grabber here, more people are coming to see the SC2 players, why shouldn't they be rightfully awarded for their pull in attendance?
I'm not ragging on Black Ops or Halo in the slightest, I just believe that fair is fair.
If you see the Halo second station, there're about 20 ppl watched team like fnatic only. Just so damn small. SC2 audience is 5 times more than Halo and COD combined on the last day and still not even enough seats and places to watch the game.
So eventhough I understand from the business view, I gotta say SC2 should add higher price money for the players that go all the way here.
You gotta remember, when all this was planned out, sc2 hadn't exploded like this on MLG. There was a reason Halo was still center stage until Anaheim.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XkWsE.png)
why take that route? Some random dude says 100k is too high so you say you might need ti lower the prizepool? 
sanddbox
![[image loading]](http://i52.tinypic.com/90r8fl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Snake-oil.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OUNUw.jpg)
