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On July 22 2011 13:41 Grantiere wrote:
Forget respect. What about stupidity? Isn't it possible that EG could have avoided this entire shitfest by contacting TSL at any point after they had a verbal understanding with Puma? Like give Puma a few days to talk to TSL, and then give TSL a courtesy call? Isn't that the smart thing to do?
true. Whether or not Puma talked to his coach and staff, EG should have made some sort of contact directly to TSL. Seems like TSL was totally ignored in wanting to keep Puma or not putting aside financial issues.
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On July 22 2011 13:43 Woshie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:39 hyptonic wrote:On July 22 2011 13:36 Serpico wrote:On July 22 2011 13:35 hyptonic wrote:On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning I don't understand how he wasn't "poached" He was a TSL player and they took him without asking. Regardless of any contract. You can't lay claim to a player that you don't even have legally binded to you, it's a weak argument at best especially in business. They took a Korean player from a Korean team. That isn't how Korean SC2 business works. With everything Korean here, we should use Korean standards. They poached him Sorry but no. If you don't use your own countries legal structure to protect your investments you have no right to complain when something goes amiss. There is nothing cultural about that, it is common sense. Also riddle me this does SC:BW have contracts for their players?
Are you fucking serious dude?
KeSPA and Free Agency
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The criticism of EG is a bit over the top here; many of you are forgetting that EG couldn't force Puma to leave. It was in the end his choice and he should have at least equal blame with EG. This shouldn't be a blame EG thread
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On July 22 2011 13:38 FryktSkyene wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:34 Daniri wrote:On July 22 2011 13:26 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 13:21 Azzur wrote:On July 22 2011 13:15 Daniel C wrote:
I'm seriously rofolofoling at all these e-CEO's who presume to know all about "international business" putting on their grim faces and saying "this is business". I'm willing to bet that the majority of these e-directors are "Westeners" that have never even stepped foot in Asia, let alone done business here.
Reality check: business culture is different in Asia, especially South-East Asia. Here, there is a lot of emphasis on respect and "saving face" (go and google that if you don't know what it is).
Let's put aside for the moment Puma's existing contract (or lack of one), Puma's own interest and decision-making, the conditions at the TSL house, Fruitdealer's and Trickster's departures.... Obviously, Puma is going to want do the best for himself, and from a purely monetary standpoint, EG did the certainly did the logical thing by grabbing Puma at first opportunity. But there's more to business than pure monetary considerations. By not contacting TSL's managers, EG has shown a blatant lack of respect for the SE Asian hierarchical structure, and has caused TSL to lose face. And people are acting surprised that the Korean's are having a big reaction?
Listen up e-chairmans, next time you're in South-East Asia, try doing business by charging head-first, guns a-blazing, no-respect spaghetti-Western style with your "business is business" attitude. You'll be shown the door faster than you can say "Yankee!!".
EG's reputation took a big hit among the Koreans, and deservedly so. Whether this negatively affects other foreigner-Korean relations is another question. Hopefully they'll learn from their mistakes and be smarter about their actions in the future.
Similarly, Asian countries need to understand that things are done differently in the West. Charging in head-first in a naive Asian-style to do business will leave them out in the cold. They're not doing business in the West. Seems like they just did. Really? Did TSL just get incontrol or something? What asian country is doing business with the west? (SC2 wise obv) EG did business with a single player. and EG is the west there not doing business with it.
TSL did business with the West when they sent their players to the NASL.
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On July 22 2011 13:45 Jetsfan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:40 Takkara wrote:On July 22 2011 13:38 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:31 FryktSkyene wrote:On July 22 2011 13:21 Jetsfan wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: Notes from Weapon of Choice
- EG did approach Puma first, and then Puma and EG agreed that it would be for the best if Puma talked to the coach. EG never contacted the coach after that.
Nor were they obligated too. No but it's a respect thing to contact the coach. Not contacting him is disrespectful. Therefore, EG disrespected coach lee and TSL. How did they disrespect coach lee and TSL, he wasn't bound to them in anyway. Would Mr. Lee prefered a phone call from EG saying "hey guess what, puma just signed with us and will be leaving your team, I just though I would let you know out of respect" or maybe the phone call should have went "hey Mr. Lee this is EG, you know that player puma, that isn't bound to you in anyway shape or form, would it be OK if we offered him a contract? oh no you say, hmmm well I guess we will have to talk with puma directly then" No, it could go like this: "Coach Lee, we'd like to inform you of our intention to approach PuMa regarding a contract with EG." And even if they did, you people would still be screaming "EG poached puma from TSL"
Don't know who "you people" is, but, sure, some people will always spout conspiracy theories about things. However, there would not have been the reaction there was now: not in Korea nor on TL.
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On July 22 2011 13:43 Woshie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:39 hyptonic wrote:On July 22 2011 13:36 Serpico wrote:On July 22 2011 13:35 hyptonic wrote:On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning I don't understand how he wasn't "poached" He was a TSL player and they took him without asking. Regardless of any contract. You can't lay claim to a player that you don't even have legally binded to you, it's a weak argument at best especially in business. They took a Korean player from a Korean team. That isn't how Korean SC2 business works. With everything Korean here, we should use Korean standards. They poached him Sorry but no. If you don't use your own countries legal structure to protect your investments you have no right to complain when something goes amiss. There is nothing cultural about that, it is common sense. Also riddle me this does SC:BW have contracts for their players?
Yes, look up KeSPA too.
Some BW players currently make more than half a million through contracts iirc.
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On July 22 2011 13:14 zerglingrodeo wrote:
So...people's main problem with EG and Puma is that they didn't conduct business the way people in the Korean scene usually do?
Has anyone stopped and wondered whether Puma himself wants to conduct business in this way? There's nothing wrong with not doing things the way that things are currently done in the Korean scene.
So screw them and their culture whatever whatever I do what I want?
When Blizzard's artist Samwise drew some pandas in Japanese clothing it pissed off their Chinese players because it is a Chinese animal. You can ignore it if you wish. If you somehow don't care about your public image as a company/organization.
On July 22 2011 13:47 ExO_ wrote:
The criticism of EG is a bit over the top here; many of you are forgetting that EG couldn't force Puma to leave. It was in the end his choice and he should have at least equal blame with EG. This shouldn't be a blame EG thread
Puma IS eating flak for his decision in Korea. TL has let him slide (mostly).
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On July 22 2011 13:40 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:38 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:31 FryktSkyene wrote:On July 22 2011 13:21 Jetsfan wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: Notes from Weapon of Choice
- EG did approach Puma first, and then Puma and EG agreed that it would be for the best if Puma talked to the coach. EG never contacted the coach after that.
Nor were they obligated too. No but it's a respect thing to contact the coach. Not contacting him is disrespectful. Therefore, EG disrespected coach lee and TSL. How did they disrespect coach lee and TSL, he wasn't bound to them in anyway. Would Mr. Lee prefered a phone call from EG saying "hey guess what, puma just signed with us and will be leaving your team, I just though I would let you know out of respect" or maybe the phone call should have went "hey Mr. Lee this is EG, you know that player puma, that isn't bound to you in anyway shape or form, would it be OK if we offered him a contract? oh no you say, hmmm well I guess we will have to talk with puma directly then" No, it could go like this: "Coach Lee, we'd like to inform you of our intention to approach PuMa regarding a contract with EG."
What then? They both hang up and its good? No. Then Lee would say, "you want to offer my player a contract? No he is on our team." Then EG would say, "fine then, well go talk to the player, we just wanted to work with your customs, but you said exactly what we thought you would say."
Lee got this mad at him leaving, he would not have been like "oh yeah, perfect, go offer my player a contract. good for puma." Does that mean that all these players are property of their korean teams with no contracts and whenever we want to make a korean player an offer, we have to ask their coaches if we can contact them, which then their coaches say no. This makes no sense. Puma was not a slave to TSL. Puma can do what he wants. He was not under contract and was not bound to the team in any way other than friendship.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 22 2011 13:43 Woshie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:39 hyptonic wrote:On July 22 2011 13:36 Serpico wrote:On July 22 2011 13:35 hyptonic wrote:On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning I don't understand how he wasn't "poached" He was a TSL player and they took him without asking. Regardless of any contract. You can't lay claim to a player that you don't even have legally binded to you, it's a weak argument at best especially in business. They took a Korean player from a Korean team. That isn't how Korean SC2 business works. With everything Korean here, we should use Korean standards. They poached him Sorry but no. If you don't use your own countries legal structure to protect your investments you have no right to complain when something goes amiss. There is nothing cultural about that, it is common sense. Also riddle me this does SC:BW have contracts for their players? Well, when you do business in another country you should always adhere to that country's standards, to a point. EG wasn't anywhere near that line, so it would have been extremely prudent to contact TSL beforehand. They didn't, and there was nothing legal obligating them to do so and because of TSL's weak management, they have no recourse. Still, if you ignore cultural practices, there's a chance that you'll pay for it in the future. Many American/Western businesses found this out the hard way when they tried to do business in Japan in the 80s.
Short term, it was a good decision for EG, and disregarding cultural practices is irrelevant. Long term, that's not the case, and it could prove problematic as Korea has an abundance of RTS talent and a helpful environment and the West has very little to offer on both fronts. Long term for SC2, you want to do business in Korea and EG didn't help their chances with that. But maybe they're still convinced they can replicate the Korean experience in the US.
Keep in mind that in the next year or two, we'll probably see dozens of players like Puma, or better, enter the SC2 scene. 'Better' seems more likely the case, if he isn't able to maintain his training.
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On July 22 2011 13:48 hyptonic wrote:
Yes, look up KeSPA too.
Some BW players currently make more than half a million through contracts iirc.
KESPA is a pillar of the community and an upstanding organization. Not controversy or scandal there, no sir.
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On July 22 2011 13:45 Jetsfan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:40 Takkara wrote:On July 22 2011 13:38 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:31 FryktSkyene wrote:On July 22 2011 13:21 Jetsfan wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: Notes from Weapon of Choice
- EG did approach Puma first, and then Puma and EG agreed that it would be for the best if Puma talked to the coach. EG never contacted the coach after that.
Nor were they obligated too. No but it's a respect thing to contact the coach. Not contacting him is disrespectful. Therefore, EG disrespected coach lee and TSL. How did they disrespect coach lee and TSL, he wasn't bound to them in anyway. Would Mr. Lee prefered a phone call from EG saying "hey guess what, puma just signed with us and will be leaving your team, I just though I would let you know out of respect" or maybe the phone call should have went "hey Mr. Lee this is EG, you know that player puma, that isn't bound to you in anyway shape or form, would it be OK if we offered him a contract? oh no you say, hmmm well I guess we will have to talk with puma directly then" No, it could go like this: "Coach Lee, we'd like to inform you of our intention to approach PuMa regarding a contract with EG." And even if they did, you people would still be screaming "EG poached puma from TSL"
Nope. Because then coach Lee wouldn't express distress and unhappiness of releasing Puma because they were able to talk and have discussions to reach understanding. The only reason people are saying that is because Coach Lee said something that show disappointment as if they could not stop Puma leaving and everything happened without them really knowing.
If Coach Lee just said ' We are very unfortunate to announce that Puma will be leaving to EG. We wish him all the luck we can. '
would people still be arguing?
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On July 22 2011 13:47 ExO_ wrote:
The criticism of EG is a bit over the top here; many of you are forgetting that EG couldn't force Puma to leave. It was in the end his choice and he should have at least equal blame with EG. This shouldn't be a blame EG thread
Why blame anyone?
TSL wasn't paying Puma nor did they have a contract with him but they aren't really to blame as they are in a shitty spot where they have no cashflow and are hemorrhaging their top tier players so getting new sponsors is going to be nigh impossible.
Puma left his team pretty abruptly after spending 10 months with them but isn't really to blame as who can blame him for wanting to get paid, have a solid contract that includes him being able to go to events around the world rather then just be regulated to code A qualifer after code A qualifer.
EG bought up a korean player from a struggling team but they haven't gone against any contracts, are going to the mat to support their new player with salary, travel expenses and flying him to the EG team house to meet the team / acclimatize and they simply followed Pumas wishs in how he wanted to handle the transition re: talking to the TSL staff.
Everyone just did what their best with the resources available to them.
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On July 22 2011 13:51 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:48 hyptonic wrote:
Yes, look up KeSPA too.
Some BW players currently make more than half a million through contracts iirc. KESPA is a pillar of the community and an upstanding organization. Not controversy or scandal there, no sir.
I never said anything about that. I only told him to look it up. He can learn about all that on his own. I didn't imply they were a good organization
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On July 22 2011 13:53 hyptonic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:51 VillageBC wrote:On July 22 2011 13:48 hyptonic wrote:
Yes, look up KeSPA too.
Some BW players currently make more than half a million through contracts iirc. KESPA is a pillar of the community and an upstanding organization. Not controversy or scandal there, no sir. I never said anything about that. I only told him to look it up. He can learn about all that on his own. I didn't imply they were a good organization
I come back and read the last page to see people arguing for the sake of arguing and asking if BW players have contracts. Time to keep your sanity and leave this thread.
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On July 22 2011 13:52 cronaldo5909 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:45 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:40 Takkara wrote:On July 22 2011 13:38 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:31 FryktSkyene wrote:On July 22 2011 13:21 Jetsfan wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: Notes from Weapon of Choice
- EG did approach Puma first, and then Puma and EG agreed that it would be for the best if Puma talked to the coach. EG never contacted the coach after that.
Nor were they obligated too. No but it's a respect thing to contact the coach. Not contacting him is disrespectful. Therefore, EG disrespected coach lee and TSL. How did they disrespect coach lee and TSL, he wasn't bound to them in anyway. Would Mr. Lee prefered a phone call from EG saying "hey guess what, puma just signed with us and will be leaving your team, I just though I would let you know out of respect" or maybe the phone call should have went "hey Mr. Lee this is EG, you know that player puma, that isn't bound to you in anyway shape or form, would it be OK if we offered him a contract? oh no you say, hmmm well I guess we will have to talk with puma directly then" No, it could go like this: "Coach Lee, we'd like to inform you of our intention to approach PuMa regarding a contract with EG." And even if they did, you people would still be screaming "EG poached puma from TSL" Nope. Because then coach Lee wouldn't express distress and unhappiness of releasing Puma because they were able to talk and have discussions to reach understanding. The only reason people are saying that is because Coach Lee said something that show disappointment as if they could not stop Puma leaving and everything happened without them really knowing. If Coach Lee just said ' We are very unfortunate to announce that Puma will be leaving to EG. We wish him all the luck we can. ' would people still be arguing?
Lee would never say this. Not after losing Trickster and FruitDealer. The amount of anger he showed at the response to this shows how he would have reacted regardless of if he was contacted or not. This is just a result of Lee losing all his good players as his team falls apart, not some cultural offense that EG committed. Lee is just mad that all his players are leaving, and I do not blame him.
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On July 22 2011 13:36 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:35 hyptonic wrote:On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning I don't understand how he wasn't "poached" He was a TSL player and they took him without asking. Regardless of any contract. You can't lay claim to a player that you don't even have legally binded to you, it's a weak argument at best especially in business.
You make me laugh. He eats and sleeps in the house, plays for them and wears their uniform. My grandma could tell he belongs to TSL. Even if he's not contractually obligated, the least you could do is respect the team and inform them. Not exploiting the loophole. That's not how it works in Korea.
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hitting quote instead of edit is bad
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On July 22 2011 13:51 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:48 hyptonic wrote:
Yes, look up KeSPA too.
Some BW players currently make more than half a million through contracts iirc. KESPA is a pillar of the community and an upstanding organization. Not controversy or scandal there, no sir.
That is my point. I think some people missed it. If the Korean culture is so harmonious and ethical. Why on earth does Kespa in SC:BW (a market Korea dominates and foreign teams can't compete monetary wise) feel the need to use such harsh rules and contracts?
Korean business isn't all rainbows and lollipops as some people wish to believe. TSL had no excuse not to realise this. That is the way I feel about it at the end of the day. It isn't a cultural difference it was bad business practice.
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accident 
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On July 22 2011 13:53 TheButtonmen wrote:
EG bought up a korean player from a struggling team but they haven't gone against any contracts, are going to the mat to support their new player with salary, travel expenses and flying him to the EG team house to meet the team / acclimatize and they simply followed Pumas wishs in how he wanted to handle the transition re: talking to the TSL staff.
I know TSL is an a strange financal situation but you have to realize they paid FD the most money at the time of his contract. Had he discussed it with his team before making the decision to leave he might have been able to get some money.
TSL is not a struggling team. They are #1 in the GSTL and EG is probably the weakest big NA team out there. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Puma is also staying in Korea and will not be living EG. Read up on this stuff before you talk about it...
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EPT
