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On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning
I don't understand how he wasn't "poached"
He was a TSL player and they took him without asking. Regardless of any contract.
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On July 22 2011 13:26 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:21 Azzur wrote:On July 22 2011 13:15 Daniel C wrote:
I'm seriously rofolofoling at all these e-CEO's who presume to know all about "international business" putting on their grim faces and saying "this is business". I'm willing to bet that the majority of these e-directors are "Westeners" that have never even stepped foot in Asia, let alone done business here.
Reality check: business culture is different in Asia, especially South-East Asia. Here, there is a lot of emphasis on respect and "saving face" (go and google that if you don't know what it is).
Let's put aside for the moment Puma's existing contract (or lack of one), Puma's own interest and decision-making, the conditions at the TSL house, Fruitdealer's and Trickster's departures.... Obviously, Puma is going to want do the best for himself, and from a purely monetary standpoint, EG did the certainly did the logical thing by grabbing Puma at first opportunity. But there's more to business than pure monetary considerations. By not contacting TSL's managers, EG has shown a blatant lack of respect for the SE Asian hierarchical structure, and has caused TSL to lose face. And people are acting surprised that the Korean's are having a big reaction?
Listen up e-chairmans, next time you're in South-East Asia, try doing business by charging head-first, guns a-blazing, no-respect spaghetti-Western style with your "business is business" attitude. You'll be shown the door faster than you can say "Yankee!!".
EG's reputation took a big hit among the Koreans, and deservedly so. Whether this negatively affects other foreigner-Korean relations is another question. Hopefully they'll learn from their mistakes and be smarter about their actions in the future.
Similarly, Asian countries need to understand that things are done differently in the West. Charging in head-first in a naive Asian-style to do business will leave them out in the cold. They're not doing business in the West.
There are two parties involved here to make the deal happen either way.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 22 2011 13:34 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:26 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 13:21 Azzur wrote:On July 22 2011 13:15 Daniel C wrote:
I'm seriously rofolofoling at all these e-CEO's who presume to know all about "international business" putting on their grim faces and saying "this is business". I'm willing to bet that the majority of these e-directors are "Westeners" that have never even stepped foot in Asia, let alone done business here.
Reality check: business culture is different in Asia, especially South-East Asia. Here, there is a lot of emphasis on respect and "saving face" (go and google that if you don't know what it is).
Let's put aside for the moment Puma's existing contract (or lack of one), Puma's own interest and decision-making, the conditions at the TSL house, Fruitdealer's and Trickster's departures.... Obviously, Puma is going to want do the best for himself, and from a purely monetary standpoint, EG did the certainly did the logical thing by grabbing Puma at first opportunity. But there's more to business than pure monetary considerations. By not contacting TSL's managers, EG has shown a blatant lack of respect for the SE Asian hierarchical structure, and has caused TSL to lose face. And people are acting surprised that the Korean's are having a big reaction?
Listen up e-chairmans, next time you're in South-East Asia, try doing business by charging head-first, guns a-blazing, no-respect spaghetti-Western style with your "business is business" attitude. You'll be shown the door faster than you can say "Yankee!!".
EG's reputation took a big hit among the Koreans, and deservedly so. Whether this negatively affects other foreigner-Korean relations is another question. Hopefully they'll learn from their mistakes and be smarter about their actions in the future.
Similarly, Asian countries need to understand that things are done differently in the West. Charging in head-first in a naive Asian-style to do business will leave them out in the cold. They're not doing business in the West. Seems like they just did. Would you like a geography lesson?
When Ford wants to sell cars in Japan, they adhere to Japanese customs because they're an American company doing business in Japan. When Toyota wants to sell cars in the US, they approach dealers as a Western business would, because they're a Japanese country doing business in America.
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On July 22 2011 13:31 FryktSkyene wrote:
No but it's a respect thing to contact the coach. Not contacting him is disrespectful. Therefore, EG disrespected coach lee and TSL.
and I don't understand "EG never contacted the coach after that" part. They never did it in the first place so "after that" makes no sense.
according to the post.
It's disrespectful to the player to go to the coach first. Maybe he want's to stay with the team, maybe he wants out of the team, maybe he doesn't want others to know he's being recruited. Players wishes first, do what the player wants.
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On July 22 2011 13:35 hyptonic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning I don't understand how he wasn't "poached" He was a TSL player and they took him without asking. Regardless of any contract.
You can't lay claim to a player that you don't even have legally binded to you, it's a weak argument at best especially in business.
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On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning
Fine, call it tapping up. It's still a dick move that's frowned upon in _western_ sports.
Edit: @Serpico
Yes by western standards it is a very weak argument and technically what EG did was perfectly legal. That said the world is not black and white. TSL (and all other pro teams) could have easily enforced ironclad contracts but they didn't because they were operating on an honor system. They have now seen the error of being so naive and I suspect tappings like this won't be possible in the future.
Congrats EG, you got your one and only free transfer.
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On July 22 2011 13:34 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:26 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 13:21 Azzur wrote:On July 22 2011 13:15 Daniel C wrote:
I'm seriously rofolofoling at all these e-CEO's who presume to know all about "international business" putting on their grim faces and saying "this is business". I'm willing to bet that the majority of these e-directors are "Westeners" that have never even stepped foot in Asia, let alone done business here.
Reality check: business culture is different in Asia, especially South-East Asia. Here, there is a lot of emphasis on respect and "saving face" (go and google that if you don't know what it is).
Let's put aside for the moment Puma's existing contract (or lack of one), Puma's own interest and decision-making, the conditions at the TSL house, Fruitdealer's and Trickster's departures.... Obviously, Puma is going to want do the best for himself, and from a purely monetary standpoint, EG did the certainly did the logical thing by grabbing Puma at first opportunity. But there's more to business than pure monetary considerations. By not contacting TSL's managers, EG has shown a blatant lack of respect for the SE Asian hierarchical structure, and has caused TSL to lose face. And people are acting surprised that the Korean's are having a big reaction?
Listen up e-chairmans, next time you're in South-East Asia, try doing business by charging head-first, guns a-blazing, no-respect spaghetti-Western style with your "business is business" attitude. You'll be shown the door faster than you can say "Yankee!!".
EG's reputation took a big hit among the Koreans, and deservedly so. Whether this negatively affects other foreigner-Korean relations is another question. Hopefully they'll learn from their mistakes and be smarter about their actions in the future.
Similarly, Asian countries need to understand that things are done differently in the West. Charging in head-first in a naive Asian-style to do business will leave them out in the cold. They're not doing business in the West. Seems like they just did.
Really? Did TSL just get incontrol or something?
What asian country is doing business with the west? (SC2 wise obv)
EG did business with a single player. and EG is the west there not doing business with it.
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On July 22 2011 13:31 FryktSkyene wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:21 Jetsfan wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: Notes from Weapon of Choice
- EG did approach Puma first, and then Puma and EG agreed that it would be for the best if Puma talked to the coach. EG never contacted the coach after that.
Nor were they obligated too. No but it's a respect thing to contact the coach. Not contacting him is disrespectful. Therefore, EG disrespected coach lee and TSL.
How did they disrespect coach lee and TSL, he wasn't bound to them in anyway. Would Mr. Lee prefered a phone call from EG saying "hey guess what, puma just signed with us and will be leaving your team, I just though I would let you know out of respect"
or maybe the phone call should have went "hey Mr. Lee this is EG, you know that player puma, that isn't bound to you in anyway shape or form, would it be OK if we offered him a contract? oh no you say, hmmm well I guess we will have to talk with puma directly then"
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On July 22 2011 13:35 hyptonic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning I don't understand how he wasn't "poached" He was a TSL player and they took him without asking. Regardless of any contract.
One, he hasn't even signed with EG yet. Two, they had Puma do the talking to coach Lee rather than alex or scoots. This is what Puma wanted too. And its not poaching when there is no contract
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On July 22 2011 13:28 Jetsfan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:27 StarStruck wrote:On July 22 2011 13:24 Serpico wrote:On July 22 2011 13:23 xBillehx wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
I disagree, if TL went behind the back of Coach Lee (which they would never do out of pure respect) and had Alex G as their PR representative the backlash would be similar. Not everyone's a blind hater. It's a TL site, I doubt they'd get as much hate. I think you would be surprised. Besides that, Nazgul would never go out of his way to do something like that. He's very familiar with how Koreans do business. Thats the thing, EG isn't doing buisness with Koreans, they are doing buisness with a Korean. Nobody else is involved otheer then Puma and EG
What I said still applies. Naz wouldn't go out of his way to sign a Korean who is already on another team. They run a tight ship when it comes to new recruits.
On July 22 2011 13:26 Jibba wrote:
They're not doing business in the West.
Precisely.
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On July 22 2011 13:36 kardinal wrote:
Fine, call it tapping up. It's still a dick move that's frowned upon in _western_ sports.
Mature sports have mechanisms in place to deal with it. SC2 will get there as well if it continues to grow.
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On July 22 2011 13:36 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:35 hyptonic wrote:On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning I don't understand how he wasn't "poached" He was a TSL player and they took him without asking. Regardless of any contract. You can't lay claim to a player that you don't even have legally binded to you, it's a weak argument at best especially in business.
They took a Korean player from a Korean team. That isn't how Korean SC2 business works.
With everything Korean here, we should use Korean standards. They poached him
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On July 22 2011 13:38 Jetsfan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:31 FryktSkyene wrote:On July 22 2011 13:21 Jetsfan wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: Notes from Weapon of Choice
- EG did approach Puma first, and then Puma and EG agreed that it would be for the best if Puma talked to the coach. EG never contacted the coach after that.
Nor were they obligated too. No but it's a respect thing to contact the coach. Not contacting him is disrespectful. Therefore, EG disrespected coach lee and TSL. How did they disrespect coach lee and TSL, he wasn't bound to them in anyway. Would Mr. Lee prefered a phone call from EG saying "hey guess what, puma just signed with us and will be leaving your team, I just though I would let you know out of respect" or maybe the phone call should have went "hey Mr. Lee this is EG, you know that player puma, that isn't bound to you in anyway shape or form, would it be OK if we offered him a contract? oh no you say, hmmm well I guess we will have to talk with puma directly then"
No, it could go like this:
"Coach Lee, we'd like to inform you of our intention to approach PuMa regarding a contract with EG."
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Forget respect. What about stupidity? Isn't it possible that EG could have avoided this entire shitfest by contacting TSL at any point after they had a verbal understanding with Puma? Like give Puma a few days to talk to TSL, and then give TSL a courtesy call? Isn't that the smart thing to do?
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On July 22 2011 13:15 Daniel C wrote:
I'm seriously rofolofoling at all these e-CEO's who presume to know all about "international business" putting on their grim faces and saying "this is business". I'm willing to bet that the majority of these e-directors are "Westeners" that have never even stepped foot in Asia, let alone done business here.
Reality check: business culture is different in Asia, especially Eastern Asia. Here, there is a lot of emphasis on respect and "saving face" (go and google that if you don't know what it is).
Let's put aside for the moment Puma's existing contract (or lack of one), Puma's own interest and decision-making, the conditions at the TSL house, Fruitdealer's and Trickster's departures.... Obviously, Puma is going to want do the best for himself, and from a purely monetary standpoint, EG certainly did the logical thing by grabbing Puma at first opportunity. But there's more to business than pure monetary considerations. By not contacting TSL's managers, EG has shown a blatant lack of respect for the Asian hierarchical structure, and has caused TSL to lose face. And people are acting surprised that the Koreans are having a big reaction?
Listen up e-chairmans, next time you're in Eastern Asia, try doing business by charging head-first, guns a-blazing, no-respect spaghetti-Western style with your "business is business" attitude. You'll be shown the door faster than you can say "Yankee!!".
EG's reputation took a big hit among the Koreans, and deservedly so. Whether this negatively affects other foreigner-Korean relations is another question. Hopefully they'll learn from their mistakes and be smarter about their actions in the future.
But that's not the way we do business on the West either.
Unless you are in a huge superior position if you are not civil about how you do business you get no business.
Please, while I sometimes get pissed at how arrogant some people are, lets try to keep generalizations to a minimum.
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On July 22 2011 13:39 hyptonic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:36 Serpico wrote:On July 22 2011 13:35 hyptonic wrote:On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning I don't understand how he wasn't "poached" He was a TSL player and they took him without asking. Regardless of any contract. You can't lay claim to a player that you don't even have legally binded to you, it's a weak argument at best especially in business. They took a Korean player from a Korean team. That isn't how Korean SC2 business works. With everything Korean here, we should use Korean standards. They poached him
Puma wasn't getting payed and didn't have a contract, poaching doesn't really seem like the proper term.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On July 22 2011 13:38 Jetsfan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:31 FryktSkyene wrote:On July 22 2011 13:21 Jetsfan wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: Notes from Weapon of Choice
- EG did approach Puma first, and then Puma and EG agreed that it would be for the best if Puma talked to the coach. EG never contacted the coach after that.
Nor were they obligated too. No but it's a respect thing to contact the coach. Not contacting him is disrespectful. Therefore, EG disrespected coach lee and TSL. How did they disrespect coach lee and TSL, he wasn't bound to them in anyway. Would Mr. Lee prefered a phone call from EG saying "hey guess what, puma just signed with us and will be leaving your team, I just though I would let you know out of respect" or maybe the phone call should have went "hey Mr. Lee this is EG, you know that player puma, that isn't bound to you in anyway shape or form, would it be OK if we offered him a contract? oh no you say, hmmm well I guess we will have to talk with puma directly then"
It is disrespectfull because TSL harbored Puma, they participated in making him the player that he is now and they trusted Puma to stay with them, then EG came with money and he left.
Its harsh, its capitalist, and its disrespectfull in my opinion. Perhaps not in yours, but it is in mine and it is in the eyes of many koreans aswell.
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On July 22 2011 13:41 Grantiere wrote:
Forget respect. What about stupidity? Isn't it possible that EG could have avoided this entire shitfest by contacting TSL at any point after they had a verbal understanding with Puma? Like give Puma a few days to talk to TSL, and then give TSL a courtesy call? Isn't that the smart thing to do?
They did give puma time to talk with tsl. He still has time right now as he hasn't signed with eg yet. Puma told eg the conversations with tsl went well.
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On July 22 2011 13:39 hyptonic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:36 Serpico wrote:On July 22 2011 13:35 hyptonic wrote:On July 22 2011 13:33 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:25 kardinal wrote:On July 22 2011 13:19 Jetsfan wrote:
I'm betting that if this was Puma is leaving TSL for Team Liquid, within the same situation it would be seen as a good thing. But because it's EG everyone just wants to hate.
That's implying that the management behind teamliquid would make a retarded player poach like that. God, you and the people who keep saying poached are retarded. The only thing EG poached were their eggs this morning I don't understand how he wasn't "poached" He was a TSL player and they took him without asking. Regardless of any contract. You can't lay claim to a player that you don't even have legally binded to you, it's a weak argument at best especially in business. They took a Korean player from a Korean team. That isn't how Korean SC2 business works. With everything Korean here, we should use Korean standards. They poached him
Sorry but no. If you don't use your own countries legal structure to protect your investments you have no right to complain when something goes amiss.
There is nothing cultural about that, it is common sense. Also riddle me this does SC:BW have contracts for their players?
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On July 22 2011 13:40 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:38 Jetsfan wrote:On July 22 2011 13:31 FryktSkyene wrote:On July 22 2011 13:21 Jetsfan wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: Notes from Weapon of Choice
- EG did approach Puma first, and then Puma and EG agreed that it would be for the best if Puma talked to the coach. EG never contacted the coach after that.
Nor were they obligated too. No but it's a respect thing to contact the coach. Not contacting him is disrespectful. Therefore, EG disrespected coach lee and TSL. How did they disrespect coach lee and TSL, he wasn't bound to them in anyway. Would Mr. Lee prefered a phone call from EG saying "hey guess what, puma just signed with us and will be leaving your team, I just though I would let you know out of respect" or maybe the phone call should have went "hey Mr. Lee this is EG, you know that player puma, that isn't bound to you in anyway shape or form, would it be OK if we offered him a contract? oh no you say, hmmm well I guess we will have to talk with puma directly then" No, it could go like this: "Coach Lee, we'd like to inform you of our intention to approach PuMa regarding a contract with EG."
And even if they did, you people would still be screaming "EG poached puma from TSL"
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EPT
