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On July 22 2011 03:21 Grimsong wrote:
Rudy signing a contract with Spain to play Basketball is equivalent to Rudy signing a contract with South Africa to go Alligator Hunting.
We don't have Alligators.
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Puma had no contract, case closed. There was no reason for EG to contact TSL coach first.
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On July 22 2011 03:21 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:20 Milkis wrote:On July 22 2011 03:19 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:18 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Well, Lee's given us his input. Now EG has to step up to the plate. -shrug- It's pretty clear cut from their PoV. Puma approchs them interested in joining. EG finds out Puma has no contract. EG does a happy dance. EG signs Puma. TSL does a sad dance. puma did not approach them first, lol How do you know? EG says they were approched, TSL coach says EG approched Puma. It's a giant game of he said / she said so instead of dealing with that I just used the phrase from their PoV. I'm not making any bold claims about which side is bullshitting to save face.
That's fair enough, but coach Lee has a good reputation, and EG's is not as sterling.
What's amusing to me is that EG's known about this, or the possibility at least, since NASL finals 11 days ago and Sir Scoots just laughed at our collective absence of fact checking, while providing none himself.
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On July 22 2011 03:24 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:23 DueSs wrote:
AFAIK, People never hated Miami for going after Lebron. lebron was a free agent, puma was not.
Puma was a free agent, Coach Lee confirmed he had no contract.
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Sounds like there was no contract. EG is totally clear (whether they approached Puma first or not)
I guess all the anger really is just due to the cultural differences between Western team systems (contracts) and Korean (trust/faith)
Korea really should fix it on their end, and they only have their own team system to be angry at.
Can't really fault EG or Puma on this one.
I'm sorry but "morals" is not really a legitimate argument.
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I wonder which Korean players EG approached to. I would lol if it was oGsMC
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And how can people getting this to TSL's coach fault? lol.
EG's just idiots as always, trying to steal players.
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On July 22 2011 03:24 LovE-z33k wrote:
Why would Korea, who has so much experience in ESPORTS, run on trust? lol
Cultural respect thing I'm guessing.
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On July 22 2011 03:23 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:21 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:20 Milkis wrote:On July 22 2011 03:19 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:18 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Well, Lee's given us his input. Now EG has to step up to the plate. -shrug- It's pretty clear cut from their PoV. Puma approchs them interested in joining. EG finds out Puma has no contract. EG does a happy dance. EG signs Puma. TSL does a sad dance. puma did not approach them first, lol How do you know? EG says they were approched, TSL coach says EG approched them. It's a giant game of he said / she said so instead of dealing with that I just used the phrase from their PoV. I'm not making any bold claims about which side is bullshitting to save face. I have my sources. EG approached Korean players in this case. Period.
Well unless you care to share with the rest of us again it's just more he said / she said / Milkis said and again I don't really care to try to boldly proclaim any side right here so again notice I said from their PoV rather then claiming any absolutes.
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On July 22 2011 03:23 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +other Western managers such as Xeris have confirmed that the EG manager was approaching many players, including Sen. What the fuck. Trying to poach Sen and such too?? O_o
sen i can understand cause his contract is coming up, maybe eg wants a head start jumping the competition for sen's services
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On July 22 2011 03:21 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:17 Angelbelow wrote:On July 22 2011 03:16 WhiteDog wrote:On July 22 2011 03:15 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:On July 22 2011 03:05 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. I can't find where Zlasher got this information. He at one point tweeted "PlayXP says he wasn't under a contract" (which would be big information) but then said "That could potentially be wrong sorry ;o" Just did some more snooping and found that 10 hours ago Milkis tweeted this http://twitter.com/#!/OrangeMilkis/status/93943666883829762"No one knows if Puma was or wasn't under a contract so let's not speculate over that stuff ^_^" Since he's probably most familiar with the breaking news on this I think it's safe to assume that whether PuMa had a contract is up in the air. Because the TSL coach didn't mention it in the article in the OP I'm guessing not, but that's pure speculation on my part. Even if Puma was or not in contract, that's not the point. He was in some kind of moral contract with his team : even amateurs have moral contract with their team. I'm in a team, and switching to another team without talking first to the leaders of my current team would not be a good way to do it... Contract or not, EG should have talked to TSL first, not to bargain with them but just to clarify the situation and move on. moral contract lol Friendship ? ever heard of friendship and business dont mix? Not 100% of the case but letting friendship come before business usually leads to problems. Not friendship so... respect or trust ? Just read TSL stance that's exactly my point. Don't try to make it sound like what I'm saying is stupid because you're an EG fan.
Respect does go both ways. If the team he is playing for isnt willing to give him his full value why should he not go to someone who is offering him both more money and more opportunity. I understand that TSL is sad that they lost there ace but in reality the cause of that is that they were not willing or not able to offer him what EG was.
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On July 22 2011 03:21 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:17 Angelbelow wrote:On July 22 2011 03:16 WhiteDog wrote:On July 22 2011 03:15 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:On July 22 2011 03:05 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. I can't find where Zlasher got this information. He at one point tweeted "PlayXP says he wasn't under a contract" (which would be big information) but then said "That could potentially be wrong sorry ;o" Just did some more snooping and found that 10 hours ago Milkis tweeted this http://twitter.com/#!/OrangeMilkis/status/93943666883829762"No one knows if Puma was or wasn't under a contract so let's not speculate over that stuff ^_^" Since he's probably most familiar with the breaking news on this I think it's safe to assume that whether PuMa had a contract is up in the air. Because the TSL coach didn't mention it in the article in the OP I'm guessing not, but that's pure speculation on my part. Even if Puma was or not in contract, that's not the point. He was in some kind of moral contract with his team : even amateurs have moral contract with their team. I'm in a team, and switching to another team without talking first to the leaders of my current team would not be a good way to do it... Contract or not, EG should have talked to TSL first, not to bargain with them but just to clarify the situation and move on. moral contract lol Friendship ? ever heard of friendship and business dont mix? Not 100% of the case but letting friendship come before business usually leads to problems. Not friendship so... respect or trust ? Just read TSL stance that's exactly my point. Don't try to make it sound like what I'm saying is stupid because you're an EG fan.
my post wasnt meant to be condescending. Apologies if you felt it was. Youre right, I am a fan of EGs, but I dont think im being subjective. Ofcousre thats just my opinion. But I dont really care for the moral argument, I see this kind of stuff happen all the time so i guess I'm used to it and come to expect it.
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On July 22 2011 03:23 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:21 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami. Hold on here. You're wrong. Here's why. Rudy Fernandez is a professional basketball player. (Puma is a SC2 pro SC2 player) He plays within the league, the NBA (Currently there is no equivalent to the NBA in SC2. But in a sense, you could say that Korea is a league. and North America is a league. Lets say that. I like it as an analogy.) While Rudy Fernandez is being contracted within the NBA, Rudy Fernandez (While Puma was playing with TSL. We dont know 100% whether he is contracted or not, and even if he is, we dont know that the contract has the wording involved to legally stop something like this from happening, in Korea) was offered a contract from a team in Spain (a team that exists outside of the league, the NBA. EG, a team that exists outside of Korea). The NBA did not fine, or go after, or threaten, the Spanish club that was offering Rudy a contract. Why? Because they aren't a part of their association. They can't pursue anything, realistically, because they aren't affiliated. The league cant impose any infractions because they are not related or under the same rules and regulations. Rudy signing a contract with Spain to play Basketball is equivalent to Rudy signing a contract with South Africa to go Alligator Hunting. It's his choice. He can do whatever he wants while still honoring his contract. If he chose to play in Spain, he would have to work out with his current team (Dallas Mavericks. TSL) how to work out the contract. Whether it's them essentially waiving his contract (what TSL did to Puma, oh hello analogy), or sitting on it as it will be valid if he ever tries to re-enter the league, the NBA (whatever wording that contract he may have with TSL would be valid because he'd be re-entering that league,perse). That would have been up to Dallas/Rudy to sort out. But Spain had every right to offer the contract without asking Mark Cuban (the owner of the Dallas team) if he'd be ok with it. And guess what? No one in the NBA gave a damn about it because this is a common occurence in the league. You are wrong, there are many post before that explain exactly how it work in real sports, just read them.
Im right. This happened. You're wrong is worthless, do you want links backing my claim up from ESPN? Are you kidding me? I know how it works in real sports, do you? Do you talk about sports hours daily, follow it closely, and have a bachelors in business? Show me how what I said didnt happen, because it literally did happen, about a month ago at that. Get back to me when you have facts.
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On July 22 2011 03:23 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:21 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:20 Milkis wrote:On July 22 2011 03:19 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:18 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Well, Lee's given us his input. Now EG has to step up to the plate. -shrug- It's pretty clear cut from their PoV. Puma approchs them interested in joining. EG finds out Puma has no contract. EG does a happy dance. EG signs Puma. TSL does a sad dance. puma did not approach them first, lol How do you know? EG says they were approched, TSL coach says EG approched them. It's a giant game of he said / she said so instead of dealing with that I just used the phrase from their PoV. I'm not making any bold claims about which side is bullshitting to save face. I have my sources. EG approached Korean players in this case. Period.
Show us your sources instead of saying things like "Period." so we stop quarreling on here about things we aren't CERTAIN of.
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On July 22 2011 03:23 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +other Western managers such as Xeris have confirmed that the EG manager was approaching many players, including Sen. What the fuck. Trying to poach Sen and such too?? O_o
Well Sen's contract with Fnatic will expire in August or Sept I think anyways. But yeah, either way pretty fucking shady.
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On July 22 2011 03:21 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:17 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:15 JWD wrote:
Thanks very much for that link guys. I'm going to update the OP with that information. Definitely suggests that there was some contract between TSL and PuMa, but who knows whether this incident implicates any of its terms. Coach Lee confirms that Puma had no contract. That certainly seems to be the implication of his first paragraph. If this is the case I can only say that I am surprised TSL would hang the security of its business venture on expectations (however strong) that players will always shy away from attractive offers purely because of an unwritten ethical code.
Hindsight is 20/20.
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On July 22 2011 03:24 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:23 DueSs wrote:
AFAIK, People never hated Miami for going after Lebron. lebron was a free agent, puma was not.
Actually, by not having a strict contract, puma was a free agent.
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Maybe TSL should have paid Puma better.
I for one am very excited to see Puma join EG
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On July 22 2011 03:24 LovE-z33k wrote:
Why would Korea, who has so much experience in ESPORTS, run on trust? lol
because it would have worked fine if foreign companies never got involved
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