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On June 25 2011 20:32 Keldrath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 20:23 lunchforthesky wrote:On June 25 2011 20:03 thepeonwhocould wrote:
Macro is the biggest factor that determines which league you will be in. It's only when you get to high diamond that things other than macro start becoming important (mostly scouting and being able to defend/react to cheese builds). Scouting matters at all levels. A master level Zerg will not be able to hold a gold level 4 gate if he has no idea it's coming until the units hit his creep. it doesnt really matter until you get to the level where you actually understand what you are scouting for and what it means and how to react to it, honestly a bronze player could scout a 4 gate coming and completely not prepare for it cause he doesnt know the difference between a 4 gate or a 3 gate and doesnt even realize hes getting 4 gated or even how to appropriatly respond to it.
I agree, but would like to add that there are gold players that can't scout and there are bronze that can, the level where you as a player "learn to scout" is very varying.
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On June 25 2011 20:33 Flummie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 20:18 lunchforthesky wrote:
People assume the skill of silver/gold players hasn't risen like everyone elses. There is almost no players around now who don't make workers, don't execute a very basic strategy etc.. like there was in early release/beta. Even bronze kids can 4 gate, bunker rush, stim timing etc.. Exactly this! I agree so much with this. I played a silver lately who had 150 apm throughout the entire game, dropped on every corner on the map and was everywhere at once and always had the nice unit compositions and spended his minerals. According to this topic silver players are players who get supplyblocked all the time, dont make workers, have terrible macro + multitasking and 10 apm while wacthing their armies die. Face it; t he skilllevel has been upgraded in these kind of leagues for sure and they aren't the clueless newbies anymore they used to be.
Probably a smurf or someone that purposely lowered their rank for one reason or another. You should message the guy and ask him. I tanked my ranking on purpose to Silver at one point because I hadn't played in 3 months and wanted to develop timings for builds while getting the rust off my mechanics. The only good players in Silver were the ones that were doing what I did for one reason or another (lots of portrait farmers). As a Diamond-level player, it was not difficult for me to move up in ranks basically at will...not bragging or anything, just stating that Silver is still very noobish (not that there's anything wrong with that..feel like Seinfeld). In BW terms, Silver is D- at best. I say "at best" even though D- is the worst possible rank because most people of that skill would not even try to compete on Iccup or other BW ladders since they were not near as forgiving or populated with casual gamers as Bnet 0.2 is.
Bronze = D-
Silver = D-
Gold = D-
Platinum = D
Diamond = D+ to C-
Masters = C to B-
Grandmasters = B to A+
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Those iccup rankings sure seem rather generous. Weren't TLO/Huk/QXC around B? And they are pro? I also can't see any C- player being stuck in diamond?
Differences between leagues, i'd say:
play style (all in vs macro) makes a huge difference. For ex. all the toss players that 4 gate every game but fall apart after the 15 min mark.
macro
decision making (never see this, but its prob the most important attribute next to macro)
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On June 25 2011 20:33 Flummie wrote:
I played a silver lately who had 150 apm throughout the entire game, dropped on every corner on the map and was everywhere at once and always had the nice unit compositions and spended his minerals. According to this topic silver players are players who get supplyblocked all the time, dont make workers, have terrible macro + multitasking and 10 apm while wacthing their armies die. Face it; t he skilllevel has been upgraded in these kind of leagues for sure and they aren't the clueless newbies anymore they used to be.
I got my beta account on the first day of invites, due to having attended Blizzcon 2008. I'd never played RTS games of any kind before that, other than a few hours starting the WC3 campaign with no idea what I'd been doing. I've played consistently since then, and in the intervening time have gone from bottom of the bottom of Copper (my first day, I had an opponent telling me "YOU ARE TRASH, GTFO STARCRAFT AND NEVER COME BACK") to (currently) high Gold.
The people around me have gotten better, but today when I play silver players I see glaring weaknesses in their play, and can win against them consistently. I take games off low Plat players but mid to high Plat consistently win against me.
So, while people are all improving, there's still a significant difference between the leagues in terms of performance.
I'm currently working on becoming a lot more consistent about my upgrades, as that seems like the biggest difference between me and the Platinum players who beat me. However, there's a lot to learn and I try to have no ego about the strengths I've acquired, because I'm so far behind the people who are fantastic at the game.
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On June 25 2011 21:55 tskarzyn wrote:
Those iccup rankings sure seem rather generous. Weren't TLO/Huk/QXC around B? And they are pro? I also can't see any C- player being stuck in diamond?
Differences between leagues, i'd say:
play style (all in vs macro) makes a huge difference. For ex. all the toss players that 4 gate every game but fall apart after the 15 min mark.
macro
decision making (never see this, but its prob the most important attribute next to macro)
The comparison isn't that a player ranked C- on ICCUP directly translates into Diamond rank in SC2, but rather that the skill level of a Diamond SC2 player compared to the skill level of the rest of the players is similar to the skill level of a C- player compared to the rest of ICCUP.
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On June 25 2011 21:55 tskarzyn wrote:
Those iccup rankings sure seem rather generous. Weren't TLO/Huk/QXC around B? And they are pro? I also can't see any C- player being stuck in diamond?
I'd suggest, obviously without being an expert, that BW and SC2 may have very different requirements for success. In BW, the small unit groups and one building per hotkey limitations raised the mechanical requirements high enough that it's possible that those requirements took on an outsized impact on game results.
While I often hear people say that SC2 has a lower skill ceiling because it doesn't have those limitations, it's very possible that reduced mechanical requirements may simply have the effect of allowing people with better strategic skills to get farther. That is, people who are stronger at the skills of inferring what their opponent is doing from limited information, good army positioning and timing, and micro of caster and other micro-intensive units might be freed by the reduced mechanical requirements to get a lot farther.
So, that a top player might have been B rated in ICCUP or whatever doesn't necessarily mean that SC2 is just an easier game overall -- it might be that their specific skills are better suited to SC2 as a game, and someone with strong mechanical skills and poorer strategic thinking might not do as well.
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On June 25 2011 21:55 tskarzyn wrote:
Those iccup rankings sure seem rather generous. Weren't TLO/Huk/QXC around B? And they are pro? I also can't see any C- player being stuck in diamond?
Differences between leagues, i'd say:
play style (all in vs macro) makes a huge difference. For ex. all the toss players that 4 gate every game but fall apart after the 15 min mark.
macro
decision making (never see this, but its prob the most important attribute next to macro)
Your misunderstanding how the ratings are designed.
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On June 25 2011 21:55 tskarzyn wrote:
Those iccup rankings sure seem rather generous. Weren't TLO/Huk/QXC around B? And they are pro? I also can't see any C- player being stuck in diamond?
Differences between leagues, i'd say:
play style (all in vs macro) makes a huge difference. For ex. all the toss players that 4 gate every game but fall apart after the 15 min mark.
macro
decision making (never see this, but its prob the most important attribute next to macro)
TLO was around A- afaik? (IPS.Radio)
i never bothered to play higher than B (im #1 in two masters divisions and wins vs grandmasters pretty often) so they seem kind of right
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On June 25 2011 21:42 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 20:33 Flummie wrote:On June 25 2011 20:18 lunchforthesky wrote:
People assume the skill of silver/gold players hasn't risen like everyone elses. There is almost no players around now who don't make workers, don't execute a very basic strategy etc.. like there was in early release/beta. Even bronze kids can 4 gate, bunker rush, stim timing etc.. Exactly this! I agree so much with this. I played a silver lately who had 150 apm throughout the entire game, dropped on every corner on the map and was everywhere at once and always had the nice unit compositions and spended his minerals. According to this topic silver players are players who get supplyblocked all the time, dont make workers, have terrible macro + multitasking and 10 apm while wacthing their armies die. Face it; t he skilllevel has been upgraded in these kind of leagues for sure and they aren't the clueless newbies anymore they used to be. Probably a smurf or someone that purposely lowered their rank for one reason or another. You should message the guy and ask him. I tanked my ranking on purpose to Silver at one point because I hadn't played in 3 months and wanted to develop timings for builds while getting the rust off my mechanics. The only good players in Silver were the ones that were doing what I did for one reason or another (lots of portrait farmers). As a Diamond-level player, it was not difficult for me to move up in ranks basically at will...not bragging or anything, just stating that Silver is still very noobish (not that there's anything wrong with that..feel like Seinfeld). In BW terms, Silver is D- at best. I say "at best" even though D- is the worst possible rank because most people of that skill would not even try to compete on Iccup or other BW ladders since they were not near as forgiving or populated with casual gamers as Bnet 0.2 is. Bronze = D- Silver = D- Gold = D- Platinum = D Diamond = D+ to C- Masters = C to B- Grandmasters = B to A+
I'm platinum and there's no way I could ever have gotten past D- on iCCup; I'm terrible. You can't compare leagues to iCCup ranks. Leagues on battle.net are huge, with 20% chunks of the player population in them.
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On June 25 2011 19:25 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 14:05 D_K_night wrote:There is a great deal of disdain snob-type behavior towards all leagues lower than masters, and imo it's unwarranted. Here's my take on it. Low Bronze - still learning the ropes of the game, very vulnerable to cheese which can keep these players down at the bottom pits of the ladder, unable to move up. Mid - High Bronze - they know the game, the counters, know what needs to be done, but lacking the execution to fully make what's happening in their minds to translate to the screen. They commonly have issues with scouting and making sense of what information is presented. Silver - They know the game reasonably well and can execute a build order fairly accurately, but have some challenges doing both Macro and Micro at the same time. Gold - These players represent the middle of the pack, and there are some genuinely scary players within. Innumerable Masters league players have smurf accounts in this league. The typical Gold player macros and micros with good degree of skill, and can take games from higher leagues, in many cases with finesse. Do not underestimate this league. Plat - One step above Gold, but this league also represents an enormous pack of players who are all fighting to break into diamond league. The constant infighting within creates an equilibrium which forces many within doomed to an stagnant existence within. Diamond and Masters - Elite creme of the crop, before GM. *EDIT When you beaten by a Gold player who seemed nigh unstoppable, I highly recommend that you message this player, say hello, compliment them on the game well played, and you'll be surprised how friendly and helpful many of them are. Chances are good that he/she is a Master in disguise  this is a lame troll, master players do not have smurf accounts in gold. bronze - diamond: i don't know what the fuck i'm doing masters: i still don't know what the fuck i'm doing unless i'm all-inning, but i do it faster than diamond players can grandmasters: am i on the NA server? yes-> then you still don't know what the fuck you're doing
No, you're a lame troll. Go away.
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On June 25 2011 21:42 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 20:33 Flummie wrote:On June 25 2011 20:18 lunchforthesky wrote:
People assume the skill of silver/gold players hasn't risen like everyone elses. There is almost no players around now who don't make workers, don't execute a very basic strategy etc.. like there was in early release/beta. Even bronze kids can 4 gate, bunker rush, stim timing etc.. Exactly this! I agree so much with this. I played a silver lately who had 150 apm throughout the entire game, dropped on every corner on the map and was everywhere at once and always had the nice unit compositions and spended his minerals. According to this topic silver players are players who get supplyblocked all the time, dont make workers, have terrible macro + multitasking and 10 apm while wacthing their armies die. Face it; t he skilllevel has been upgraded in these kind of leagues for sure and they aren't the clueless newbies anymore they used to be. Probably a smurf or someone that purposely lowered their rank for one reason or another. You should message the guy and ask him. I tanked my ranking on purpose to Silver at one point because I hadn't played in 3 months and wanted to develop timings for builds while getting the rust off my mechanics. The only good players in Silver were the ones that were doing what I did for one reason or another (lots of portrait farmers). As a Diamond-level player, it was not difficult for me to move up in ranks basically at will...not bragging or anything, just stating that Silver is still very noobish (not that there's anything wrong with that..feel like Seinfeld). In BW terms, Silver is D- at best. I say "at best" even though D- is the worst possible rank because most people of that skill would not even try to compete on Iccup or other BW ladders since they were not near as forgiving or populated with casual gamers as Bnet 0.2 is. Bronze = D- Silver = D- Gold = D- Platinum = D Diamond = D+ to C- Masters = C to B- Grandmasters = B to A+
You overestimate GM in SC2 a little bit here. Any D+ on ICCUP can reach Diamond/ Master no problem if they actually want to.
GM is C to A for me.
For the OP, most people don't know anything about the game untill they reach Diamond and onward. My Korean friend didn't play SC:BW for like 3 years, then I introduce him to SC2. He just sit down and play, got place into gold. He reach diamond now after 3 weeks. He plays Zerg and untill now he still has a very vague build order but still can hold up against Diamond, cos he just can macro and has good mechanic.
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I was D+ protoss and now I am 19-6 in NA master league and I don't even cheese. I played this master league zerg who 6 pooled me twice lolol.
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as a bronze worked to plat, i would say in addition to macro and all other things mentioned, aggression is really lacking. if neither player all ins, then the game lasts forever, making whoever A-moved at a better time win. try to be aggressive, do drops, etc.
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i think a lot of people do not ladder too often, so their league does not reflect their skill. there are also a lot of one trick ponies (even played a master protoss with silver level macro [but gosu blink micro]).
Especially T and P have some very strong all in builds (six rax, proxy play) which may yield a good winrate up to masters if executed well.
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Bronze to Gold varies a lot, from people who go into the game with no plan whatsoever to people who have a basic build order but cannot execute properly. Macro generally falls apart after 1-base play.
Platinum players tend to have a more solid idea of what they want to do and can execute up to 2-base play but get sloppy after that.
Diamond players have the macro to pull off whatever build order they want but lack multi-tasking power.
Masters players will start to pull a lot more harass while macroing up as they are fluent enough in their macro to concentrate their apm in other areas. Armies will no longer just sit at each players base but will be used for "sharking", poking constantly for weaknesses.
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EPT
