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There is a great deal of disdain snob-type behavior towards all leagues lower than masters, and imo it's unwarranted. Here's my take on it.
Low Bronze - still learning the ropes of the game, very vulnerable to cheese which can keep these players down at the bottom pits of the ladder, unable to move up.
Mid - High Bronze - they know the game, the counters, know what needs to be done, but lacking the execution to fully make what's happening in their minds to translate to the screen. They commonly have issues with scouting and making sense of what information is presented.
Silver - They know the game reasonably well and can execute a build order fairly accurately, but have some challenges doing both Macro and Micro at the same time.
Gold - These players represent the middle of the pack, and there are some genuinely scary players within. Innumerable Masters league players have smurf accounts in this league. The typical Gold player macros and micros with good degree of skill, and can take games from higher leagues, in many cases with finesse. Do not underestimate this league.
Plat - One step above Gold, but this league also represents an enormous pack of players who are all fighting to break into diamond league. The constant infighting within creates an equilibrium which forces many within doomed to an stagnant existence within.
Diamond and Masters - Elite creme of the crop, before GM.
*EDIT When you beaten by a Gold player who seemed nigh unstoppable, I highly recommend that you message this player, say hello, compliment them on the game well played, and you'll be surprised how friendly and helpful many of them are. Chances are good that he/she is a Master in disguise 
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Different players have different problems with their game. There are some bronze players that can macro better than most silver, but it is in other areas of the game that they are lacking. If you are serious about improvement, forget about this nonsense and focus on your game. Practice macro till it is muscle memory and viola! Promotion should be a natural result of improvement. Don't try and force it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 25 2011 14:05 D_K_night wrote:There is a great deal of disdain snob-type behavior towards all leagues lower than masters, and imo it's unwarranted. Here's my take on it. Low Bronze - still learning the ropes of the game, very vulnerable to cheese which can keep these players down at the bottom pits of the ladder, unable to move up. Mid - High Bronze - they know the game, the counters, know what needs to be done, but lacking the execution to fully make what's happening in their minds to translate to the screen. They commonly have issues with scouting and making sense of what information is presented. Silver - They know the game reasonably well and can execute a build order fairly accurately, but have some challenges doing both Macro and Micro at the same time. Gold - These players represent the middle of the pack, and there are some genuinely scary players within. Innumerable Masters league players have smurf accounts in this league. The typical Gold player macros and micros with good degree of skill, and can take games from higher leagues, in many cases with finesse. Do not underestimate this league. Plat - One step above Gold, but this league also represents an enormous pack of players who are all fighting to break into diamond league. The constant infighting within creates an equilibrium which forces many within doomed to an stagnant existence within. Diamond and Masters - Elite creme of the crop, before GM. *EDIT When you beaten by a Gold player who seemed nigh unstoppable, I highly recommend that you message this player, say hello, compliment them on the game well played, and you'll be surprised how friendly and helpful many of them are. Chances are good that he/she is a Master in disguise
Put your post in spoilers since it seemed unecasarry to quoute whole post
On June 25 2011 14:05 D_K_night wrote
There is a great deal of disdain snob-type behavior towards all leagues lower than masters, and imo it's unwarranted. Here's my take on it.
Diamond and Masters - Elite creme of the crop, before GM.
Daimond - The dues that know certain builds fairly well or a certain style, but lacks responses follow ups and macro to back that up with
Masters - This is such a mixbagged that it's astounding to me. Either they are like the daimond players or they could (depending on server) be as good as any other GM or about to break there.
GM - Either they are really good or the top elite, or some people that just abused the ladder during reset and stayed there.
Took yours and added on since I thought it was kinda correct ^__^
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Basically,
Bronze is throwing paint at a wall
Silver is drawing outside the lines with the wrong crayons
gold is using the right colours
platinum is drawing in the lines
diamond is putty a shitty picture together
masters is something recognizable by all, but not always brilliant
grandmasters tend to be masterpieces.
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Macro until high masters then maybe Micro and decision making
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Bronze- Knowledge is very little, no micro, no builds, micro is non-existant, production is not consistant at all.
Silver- start of consistent builds
Gold- starting to know how to react to builds; production isn't consistent, but it is getting better
Platinum- Has a set of builds for each mu; production starts to be consistent (especially w/ probes and scvs); Starts to micro;
Bottom of diamond- knows the basics for reacting; Micro is basic but effective; Has a build order for most maps/positions; production of workers is consistent, production of army units is fair.
Top of diamond/bottom of masters- Has the basics of Micro, Macro and strats on all maps.
Middle and upper masters- beginning of higher level strats, also can be seen as just playing more than rest of masters
GM- everyone knows the basics and the metagame shifts, "Special tactics" as White-ra would say, deviations based off of your opponents play made because of good decisions.
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To get to silver, you really just need to refine your builds and start to consistently produce workers and army units. If you do that, you will win 70% of your builds because they won't be doing the same, you could literally produce nothing but stalkers or roaches or marauders and win most of your games against other bronze and silver players.
Edit: Also, I would say to get to the rank above you, you need to be playing better than them, ie playing at the level above the level you are going for.
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Everyone is talking about how they THINK people should progress through leagues, not how people ACTUALLY do. People improve micro too as they progress. And no one who isn't giving lessons or something has recently played in all these leagues.
Yes macro is a clear way to get into silver, but if you kept your macro and learned how concaves work, you would probably easily get into silver too. If you got gosu (or even decent) banshee control, you would also probably win every game as well.
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On June 25 2011 13:56 dave333 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 13:42 leecH wrote:
did i every mention my terran buddie who got into master with cheese and 1base allins only? now he is in master league does he have better macro/game understanding than someone in, lets say platin? haha think about that.
he is a master cheese, while i am a diamond macro player. thats how i see it. when he all ins me i cant defend (and it pisses me off lol), if we play a macro game i win. just think about how you play and what league your in and you will know what the league means for you. you cant just compare the leagues themselfs. the leagues basicly stands for a sum of different people. last but not least for me the league is an indicator of how you improve at whatever you do. if you have 1000 games and you are still in bronze you obviously do not improve and mostly just play the game for pure fun. if you are in the higher leagues you obsviously care about getting better. thats all there is to the hole topic. people who try to get better and people who dont. I'd look into your play; you might be being greedy in some way. Can you not defend even knowing the cheese is coming? There's cheese at every level and beating it is pretty much the same at every level. Obviously it's different on the ladder one you never know what's coming, so it really pays to be safe. If you can't beat your friend even if you know cheese is coming then there's a problem. Sometimes it pays to be safe if you know your macro and mistake are really strong to catch you back yp. See dongraegu, opening up gas pool instead of 15 hatch against Sc knowing how deadly scs 2 tax is and trusting his ability to catch up later, and doing as safe build to survive. Macro is not greed.
yeah you are right i am greedy and have a lots of flaws in my play. but against him its like i am totally paranoid everytime i play him it´s really wierd xD. sometimes i defend but i am just bad at holding all ins. i also try to play my normal game even knowing he probably gonna all in because i dont really care about beating him because he like played sc1 since release and now just plays sc2 for fun.. balbalbala...
but i tried to make a point that you cant put leagues into catagories i dont know how i even made it into diamond myself. i played FPS´s for 8 years i should be below average so really i think the league system is somehow.. stupid? it´s an indicator of how you improve at most. of course if you are like a solid master or grandmaster you are insanly good. everything else for me is just a random big pool of people playing the game with different mindsets..
for example sometimes when i play and drink at the same time, and im really wasted and keep on playing (because its fun ^^) and i start to hit platin players again i still go up in my division because of the bonus pool. if your ranking inside the league does not mean anything how can the league itself mean anything? ive read the TL thread explaining the leagues, still i cant think about how you could break down the leagues beside the mindset the players have.
imo there should be like a chess elo without a bonus pool (because bonus pool makes no sense) where your ranking actually means something. then you could try to put certain ranges into categories if that makes sense what i just said.
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No difference in leagues themselves, as some players that are ranked highly in their league can be better than the average.
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Uh, you'd have to specify EU, US or KR, It's a pretty big difference
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I think that it's macro for the lower leagues. Less so for the difference between Platinum and Diamond and even less between Diamond and Masters. I think the main difference for these leagues is proper counter-strategies based on scouting and proper execution (timings and microing battles well). Multi-tasking ability (i.e. being able to macro while harassing and defending) I think is one of the bigger factors between Diamond and Masters.
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I think it's mostly macro and game sense at the lower levels. I play custom games alot to let off steam and I like to do fun builds like mass Thor, banshee/ Viking, mass bc etc. And half the time vs bronze through gold I can just expand to 5 places on the map and they won't get scouted until it's too late if they get scouted at all.
For example in my last game vs a gold player I opened 2 port banshee and got completely shut down because he went blind raven, but didn't do anything for 20 minutes as I expanded to his natural and every base on the map and got 200/200 3/3 bcs.
Around platinum is the point where most people start to recognize shit like that and go 'hey he's got 5 marines I could just amove over his army right now'
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I wonder where are these opinions are coming from (if they're first hand experience or not) because being that I'm somebody who only plays a few times a month maximum, I've had my fair share of experience from silver to platinum when I actually sat down to get promoted.
As a zerg I felt that the biggest difference that took me from silver to gold was learning how to hold all-ins without dying, because they are very common and 1-2 base play was kind of the standard. macro play would happen but only after failed 1-2 base plays. So the biggest thing was to be able to macro hard to survive, and macro hard to recover from abusive harass.
In gold macro play was the standard; the main thing helping my opponents survive was playing super turtly and then moving out with the standard "killing blows." This would involve large mech play from terran and general deathball antics from protoss. The thing that got me out of gold was keeping up my macro but also learning to harass back effectively without letting my macro slip. I saw a lot of cool tactics here (elevator dropping, warp prism play, etc).
In plat I saw a major decrease in tactful play. In general macro was average and in lower plat I saw a lot of 1-2 base all-ins again and general attempts to end games quickly and desperately. My opinion at that point was that gold > plat and that pretty much held true until higher plat. Then there would be random gems that would completely out play me (good macro, harass, tactics, timings, game sense, etc) but the overall standard rose a tiny bit (more long term planning instead of just throwing stuff at your opponent).
Facing lower diamond plays I saw an overall skill decrease again. Once again back to 1-2 base all ins followed by rage quits (lol). Haven't played since I've been busy so I don't know about the rest.
My observations were that the higher levels of each league were less reliant on specific strategies doing enough damage to win as opposed to the lower levels. The difference between the similar levels of each league was more multitasking and better timings/game sense.
As for the comments about micro, they're laughable at best and is how I KNOW it's complete bullshit. It's not difficult to micro at all, and to be honest you'll see more micro in silver as opposed to plat because they'll actually sacrifice macro to do so.
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On June 25 2011 13:19 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 13:14 Purpleh433 wrote:
Do you guys think that there are little to no differences between Bronze and Silver players? not much, but in silver league they know how to make workers, and usually they try to use and apply actual build orders (by that, I mean they somewhat have an idea of what they want to do. In bronze, its more like, hey lets make marines, hey, i could make a factory and make tanks!!! lets do this. Hey, a mdivac can heal me, lets make 2 of those...you see where I am going like that). However, i have not played in bronze-silver for a long long time, and even then, It did not really take me a lot of time to go up (about 20 games from bronze to silver and another 20 from silver to gold), so I don't really have a big amount of games at this level. I could be somewhat wrong.
That was what Bronze was like on release. You can't get out of Bronze nowadays without having some sort of build. People are very capable of hitting specific timings, churning out that 4gate or whatever right when you'd expect it from a Diamond player, of course their micro is horrible, they don't macro while combat is happening, they don't scout and they don't do anything to try and hide it, but Bronze is nothing like it used to be.
It's certainly not good, but it's not like "oh, let's build this, that looks good!" either.
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On June 25 2011 16:55 ZarMulix wrote:
As for the comments about micro, they're laughable at best and is how I KNOW it's complete bullshit. It's not difficult to micro at all, and to be honest you'll see more micro in silver as opposed to plat because they'll actually sacrifice macro to do so.
i saw a big difference in stutter-stepping/kiting, baneling splitting, muta control, attacking into chokes/concaves, FORCEFIELDS, target firing, spreading armies, etc.
but you KNOW it's complete bullshit. ok brah. micro is easy. lol
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I dont think its more of like good micro and macro. Dont get me wrong you need those skills to get better or even trying to like win a game. Although I think one of the big factors is to try to make good decision making. You have to know when to start microing and when to start macroing and things like that. If you have the decision to do a strategy and trying to execute, you'll need to have the mindset to do it thats the important part. The only thing that backs that strategy is if youre macro is able to support the build then micro when it is needed.
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On June 25 2011 17:12 sleigh bells wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 16:55 ZarMulix wrote:
As for the comments about micro, they're laughable at best and is how I KNOW it's complete bullshit. It's not difficult to micro at all, and to be honest you'll see more micro in silver as opposed to plat because they'll actually sacrifice macro to do so. i saw a big difference in stutter-stepping/kiting, baneling splitting, muta control, attacking into chokes/concaves, FORCEFIELDS, target firing, spreading armies, etc. but you KNOW it's complete bullshit. ok brah. micro is easy. lol
Micro IS pretty easy. Sure I don't see mkp splits in silver, but everything else is pretty simple. How else do you explain the mass appeal of MOBA games where all you do is micro?
Stutter step - spam s.
Kite - click and press h, s, p, a, whatever
Target firing - you click (really?)
Muta control - I think it's more about knowing how much you can get away with and how opponents will react when you attack various parts of a base (so having more experience to be bolder with them, picking off marines, etc)
Spreading armies is pretty simple too, it's just that NO ONE does it for some reason. It pains me to play against people who still use 1 hotkey for their army but who's fault is that?
None of this is difficult by any means of the imagination. I'll concede forcefields because I forgot to mention that those DO get significantly better. That part is true. Like I said before I see tons of people doing nice micro tactics, but then they don't macro behind it. That's the biggest problem behind lower leaguers apart from experience and game sense.
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I really think getting the basics such as spending money and making stuff is probably the best way to learn and improve. Stuff such as actually building constant workers up until your first supply building, getting a pylon on 9. Most bronzies actually wind up building a supply on like 7/8 and then a barracks/pool or w/e on 10-11. I'd say it's mainly just starting to make more and more stuff as you go up the rankings.
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People higher up have better mechanics, unit positioning, and understanding of the game. There's not that much of a difference until you start getting to the pros. You should be able to use the standard builds for a really long time and just work on mechanics.
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On June 25 2011 18:14 ZarMulix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 17:12 sleigh bells wrote:On June 25 2011 16:55 ZarMulix wrote:
As for the comments about micro, they're laughable at best and is how I KNOW it's complete bullshit. It's not difficult to micro at all, and to be honest you'll see more micro in silver as opposed to plat because they'll actually sacrifice macro to do so. i saw a big difference in stutter-stepping/kiting, baneling splitting, muta control, attacking into chokes/concaves, FORCEFIELDS, target firing, spreading armies, etc. but you KNOW it's complete bullshit. ok brah. micro is easy. lol Micro IS pretty easy. Sure I don't see mkp splits in silver, but everything else is pretty simple. How else do you explain the mass appeal of MOBA games where all you do is micro? Stutter step - spam s. Kite - click and press h, s, p, a, whatever Target firing - you click (really?) Muta control - I think it's more about knowing how much you can get away with and how opponents will react when you attack various parts of a base (so having more experience to be bolder with them, picking off marines, etc) Spreading armies is pretty simple too, it's just that NO ONE does it for some reason. It pains me to play against people who still use 1 hotkey for their army but who's fault is that? None of this is difficult by any means of the imagination. I'll concede forcefields because I forgot to mention that those DO get significantly better. That part is true. Like I said before I see tons of people doing nice micro tactics, but then they don't macro behind it. That's the biggest problem behind lower leaguers apart from experience and game sense.
and making scvs and units is "difficult by any means of the imagination" when you put it into button pressing terms? you select a CC and press s. soooo hard
have you ever SEEN a silver type player try to stutter step? it's not pretty. it must be easy for you because you are so gosu, but it's obviously hard for them, just like making SCVs is. wtf. and perfect stutter step is hard, just like perfect macro. i saw more micro in plat as opposed to silver. why is your ladder experience the right one? wtf
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EPT
