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On June 25 2011 18:32 sleigh bells wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 18:14 ZarMulix wrote:On June 25 2011 17:12 sleigh bells wrote:On June 25 2011 16:55 ZarMulix wrote:
As for the comments about micro, they're laughable at best and is how I KNOW it's complete bullshit. It's not difficult to micro at all, and to be honest you'll see more micro in silver as opposed to plat because they'll actually sacrifice macro to do so. i saw a big difference in stutter-stepping/kiting, baneling splitting, muta control, attacking into chokes/concaves, FORCEFIELDS, target firing, spreading armies, etc. but you KNOW it's complete bullshit. ok brah. micro is easy. lol Micro IS pretty easy. Sure I don't see mkp splits in silver, but everything else is pretty simple. How else do you explain the mass appeal of MOBA games where all you do is micro? Stutter step - spam s. Kite - click and press h, s, p, a, whatever Target firing - you click (really?) Muta control - I think it's more about knowing how much you can get away with and how opponents will react when you attack various parts of a base (so having more experience to be bolder with them, picking off marines, etc) Spreading armies is pretty simple too, it's just that NO ONE does it for some reason. It pains me to play against people who still use 1 hotkey for their army but who's fault is that? None of this is difficult by any means of the imagination. I'll concede forcefields because I forgot to mention that those DO get significantly better. That part is true. Like I said before I see tons of people doing nice micro tactics, but then they don't macro behind it. That's the biggest problem behind lower leaguers apart from experience and game sense. and making scvs and units is "difficult by any means of the imagination" when you put it into button pressing terms? you select a CC and press s. soooo hard have you ever SEEN a silver type player try to stutter step? it's not pretty. it must be easy for you because you are so gosu, but it's obviously hard for them, just like making SCVs is. wtf. and perfect stutter step is hard, just like perfect macro. i saw more micro in plat as opposed to silver. why is your ladder experience the right one? wtf
I was responding to this comment:
Platinum- Has a set of builds for each mu; production starts to be consistent (especially w/ probes and scvs); Starts to micro;
Starts to micro means that everyone below plat is not microing at all, so I guess that means 1aing into every battle. This is simply not true and I never said it was perfect, I said they do it. I must have played different people than you did, and I'm stressing the importance of not generalizing off of falsified ideas about lower leagues. My first hand experience is perfectly relevant, and so is yours.
Had I said that ALL lower league players have "perfect" micro, then you would be perfectly justified in calling me out and I would have to reconsider my argument. I just posted what I had faced, which is contrary to what some people have posted before (I suspect out of ignorance) and is therefore a false generalization.
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On June 25 2011 16:55 ZarMulix wrote:
As for the comments about micro, they're laughable at best and is how I KNOW it's complete bullshit. It's not difficult to micro at all, and to be honest you'll see more micro in silver as opposed to plat because they'll actually sacrifice macro to do so.
You sound like someone that doesn't know what/when it is important to micro. You mentioned army splitting with multiple hotkeys in your other post, but that's not how it's done unless you're doing a complete flank sandwich, which is pretty difficult to do on a lot maps. Contrary to what you believe, lots of higher ranked players do split their army right before a battle to get the most surface area and lessen AOE attacks against them. What about tank focus firing with marine retreat and splitting all at the same time vs. muta/ling/bane? What about dropship popping with heavier HP units like tanks or immortals during a battle? What about perfect rine or baneling split when attacking into siege tanks? The list goes on and on.
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On June 25 2011 19:11 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 16:55 ZarMulix wrote:
As for the comments about micro, they're laughable at best and is how I KNOW it's complete bullshit. It's not difficult to micro at all, and to be honest you'll see more micro in silver as opposed to plat because they'll actually sacrifice macro to do so. You sound like someone that doesn't know what/when it is important to micro. You mentioned army splitting with multiple hotkeys in your other post, but that's not how it's done unless you're doing a complete flank sandwich, which is pretty difficult to do on a lot maps. Contrary to what you believe, lots of higher ranked players do split their army right before a battle to get the most surface area and lessen AOE attacks against them. What about tank focus firing with marine retreat and splitting all at the same time vs. muta/ling/bane? What about dropship popping with heavier HP units like tanks or immortals during a battle? What about perfect rine or baneling split when attacking into siege tanks? The list goes on and on.
Where do people get the idea that I'm criticizing higher ranked players? I'm talking strictly lower league players and I'm talking about all forms of micro (mostly basic micro as was listed before). All I'm arguing is that micro EXISTS.
No it's definitely not the best, it's not done at the right times, it's just attempted.
People attempt to micro in the lower leagues, often at the expense of their macro. I don't see how this is debatable. It is first hand experience and does not apply to everyone.
My theory is that people find microing easier or funner to do, or don't always have the multitasking/game sense to know when to. This is opinion but is not what you're arguing against. You're arguing that micro isn't easy and I agree I mispoke(posted, w/e). I meant that basic micro is simple, so it's not an issue of whether they're capable of doing it, it's an issue of how often you'll see a lower league player choose it over everything else.
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bronze- brand new to rts, unit control and macro is very difficult for these players.
silver- struggles with macro more so than micro
gold- not struggling as much as silvers with macro (unit control is probably a bit better than silver)
platinum- again.. not struggling as much with macro and starting to learn "builds"
diamond- can macro 1-2 bases decently (their macro starts sucking when they have to multitask) micro is not that bad..
These players can learn builds.
masters- can macro and micro pretty well and knows a decent amount about builds.
Grandmaster is basically top10masters but around ~rank100 and up know a lot more about countering builds and they tend to use more economical builds(FE'ish builds cause they know how to defend most aggression). ~top16 are really really good at macro/micro/multitasking.
From my point of view, between each league is a huge leap of skill... I feel that a top10 diamond player will stand no chance against a top10 master player. But at the same time people can get missplaced into higher league from the first 5 matches and they can also climb to a league higher than their actual skill by executing one simple build like 4gate.
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On June 25 2011 14:05 D_K_night wrote:There is a great deal of disdain snob-type behavior towards all leagues lower than masters, and imo it's unwarranted. Here's my take on it. Low Bronze - still learning the ropes of the game, very vulnerable to cheese which can keep these players down at the bottom pits of the ladder, unable to move up. Mid - High Bronze - they know the game, the counters, know what needs to be done, but lacking the execution to fully make what's happening in their minds to translate to the screen. They commonly have issues with scouting and making sense of what information is presented. Silver - They know the game reasonably well and can execute a build order fairly accurately, but have some challenges doing both Macro and Micro at the same time. Gold - These players represent the middle of the pack, and there are some genuinely scary players within. Innumerable Masters league players have smurf accounts in this league. The typical Gold player macros and micros with good degree of skill, and can take games from higher leagues, in many cases with finesse. Do not underestimate this league. Plat - One step above Gold, but this league also represents an enormous pack of players who are all fighting to break into diamond league. The constant infighting within creates an equilibrium which forces many within doomed to an stagnant existence within. Diamond and Masters - Elite creme of the crop, before GM. *EDIT When you beaten by a Gold player who seemed nigh unstoppable, I highly recommend that you message this player, say hello, compliment them on the game well played, and you'll be surprised how friendly and helpful many of them are. Chances are good that he/she is a Master in disguise 
this is a lame troll, master players do not have smurf accounts in gold.
bronze - diamond: i don't know what the fuck i'm doing
masters: i still don't know what the fuck i'm doing unless i'm all-inning, but i do it faster than diamond players can
grandmasters: am i on the NA server? yes-> then you still don't know what the fuck you're doing
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On June 25 2011 14:05 D_K_night wrote:There is a great deal of disdain snob-type behavior towards all leagues lower than masters, and imo it's unwarranted. Here's my take on it. Low Bronze - still learning the ropes of the game, very vulnerable to cheese which can keep these players down at the bottom pits of the ladder, unable to move up. Mid - High Bronze - they know the game, the counters, know what needs to be done, but lacking the execution to fully make what's happening in their minds to translate to the screen. They commonly have issues with scouting and making sense of what information is presented. Silver - They know the game reasonably well and can execute a build order fairly accurately, but have some challenges doing both Macro and Micro at the same time. Gold - These players represent the middle of the pack, and there are some genuinely scary players within. Innumerable Masters league players have smurf accounts in this league. The typical Gold player macros and micros with good degree of skill, and can take games from higher leagues, in many cases with finesse. Do not underestimate this league. Plat - One step above Gold, but this league also represents an enormous pack of players who are all fighting to break into diamond league. The constant infighting within creates an equilibrium which forces many within doomed to an stagnant existence within. Diamond and Masters - Elite creme of the crop, before GM. *EDIT When you beaten by a Gold player who seemed nigh unstoppable, I highly recommend that you message this player, say hello, compliment them on the game well played, and you'll be surprised how friendly and helpful many of them are. Chances are good that he/she is a Master in disguise
I wasn't going to bother posting in this thread for reasons I will explain, but this post just seemed so wrong and is representative of an attitude many seem to have. The thing that separates people in different leagues is who they can win consistently against. That is oversimplified, but the ladder is better explained in other threads devoted to that. This is really all that defines a league (mmr) and the wins can come for any reason (a decent memorized build, macro, miccro, some combination). Thus, there is no one specific skill that determines your league, but you will advance if you can develop and be able to win regularly against players in a higher league while rarely losing to players in your own.
The attitude that the above quotation as well as many others seem to be advocating is wrong for a number of reasons. First, the mastery of lower level players is greatly overstated. Good macro is a skill that people at all levels can be seen to occasionally fail at. How many times will you see a caster comment on a pro players money getting over 1k? Obviously their macro is normally better than players of less skill since macro is one of the defining skills of the game, but it is wrong to suggest that gold or plat players have basically gotten down their macro. In addition, it is suggested that there comes a level (in this post it is claimed to be gold league), at which you can take a game off anyone. There is some truth to this sentiment in that you could perhaps master a specific cheese that could possibly catch anyone off guard. However, the reality is that skill gaps increases exponentially as you go up the ladder and into the pro scene. i.e. I could likely win 90%+ of games against people a league or two below me, but that doesn't mean I am likely to take even 1% of games against a mid level gsl player.
I'll be honest and say that I haven't played in most of the leagues the quoted poster describes, but people really need to stop overestimating the lower leagues. I'm not saying this to be insulting. There is nothing wrong with being in bronze or silver or w/e. However, if you are looking to improve, assuming mastery of some basic skill that you certainly don't have is not the way.
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It totally depends on which leagues your talking about. A few months ago I was in bronze, and have currently worked myself up into top platinum playing nearly all diamond. I found that going from bronze to platinum actually happened rather quickly. For me, something clicked in the lines of macro and I started dominating. I went from bronze to silver, then 2 weeks later gold, then 4 days to platinum. However once I got to platinum I felt as if micro became extremely important.
For a while I just tried to improve my macro, but I was still losing to timing attacks, or not macroing well enough. The answer i'm finding is micro. I personally have been working on my micro, and I jumped from a lower plat to higher plat. So to answer your question on what makes a better player by league, I guess I'd say it depends on your league
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Macro is the biggest factor that determines which league you will be in. It's only when you get to high diamond that things other than macro start becoming important (mostly scouting and being able to defend/react to cheese builds).
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On June 25 2011 14:05 D_K_night wrote:
grandmasters: am i on the NA server? yes-> then you still don't know what the fuck you're doing
So many people on TL have this mentality and I don't get it.
People think unless you're a top 10 Grandmaster you're shit...
All servers:
Bronze:----------------------31.9% (379,845 players)
Silver:------------------------22.9% (272,218 players)
Gold:-------------------------18.4% (218,902 players)
Platinum:--------------------14.8% (175,730 players)
Diamond:--------------------2.5% (29,406 players)
Grandmaster Master---- 0.2% (1,842 players)
source: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
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On June 25 2011 18:32 sleigh bells wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 18:14 ZarMulix wrote:On June 25 2011 17:12 sleigh bells wrote:On June 25 2011 16:55 ZarMulix wrote:
As for the comments about micro, they're laughable at best and is how I KNOW it's complete bullshit. It's not difficult to micro at all, and to be honest you'll see more micro in silver as opposed to plat because they'll actually sacrifice macro to do so. i saw a big difference in stutter-stepping/kiting, baneling splitting, muta control, attacking into chokes/concaves, FORCEFIELDS, target firing, spreading armies, etc. but you KNOW it's complete bullshit. ok brah. micro is easy. lol Micro IS pretty easy. Sure I don't see mkp splits in silver, but everything else is pretty simple. How else do you explain the mass appeal of MOBA games where all you do is micro? Stutter step - spam s. Kite - click and press h, s, p, a, whatever Target firing - you click (really?) Muta control - I think it's more about knowing how much you can get away with and how opponents will react when you attack various parts of a base (so having more experience to be bolder with them, picking off marines, etc) Spreading armies is pretty simple too, it's just that NO ONE does it for some reason. It pains me to play against people who still use 1 hotkey for their army but who's fault is that? None of this is difficult by any means of the imagination. I'll concede forcefields because I forgot to mention that those DO get significantly better. That part is true. Like I said before I see tons of people doing nice micro tactics, but then they don't macro behind it. That's the biggest problem behind lower leaguers apart from experience and game sense. and making scvs and units is "difficult by any means of the imagination" when you put it into button pressing terms? you select a CC and press s. soooo hard have you ever SEEN a silver type player try to stutter step? it's not pretty. it must be easy for you because you are so gosu, but it's obviously hard for them, just like making SCVs is. wtf. and perfect stutter step is hard, just like perfect macro. i saw more micro in plat as opposed to silver. why is your ladder experience the right one? wtf
not knowing how to do it doesnt make it difficult, it just means you dont know how to do it. stutter step is one of the easiest micro things to learn in the game, all you do is tell your units to move back with right click while u just intermittently press s to time it between shots so when they stop the fire. theres nothing difficult about it your just spamming right click and pressing s
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People assume the skill of silver/gold players hasn't risen like everyone elses. There is almost no players around now who don't make workers, don't execute a very basic strategy etc.. like there was in early release/beta. Even bronze kids can 4 gate, bunker rush, stim timing etc..
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The thing I noticed when I got from gold to platinum is, I'm playing a lot faster.
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On June 25 2011 19:25 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 14:05 D_K_night wrote:There is a great deal of disdain snob-type behavior towards all leagues lower than masters, and imo it's unwarranted. Here's my take on it. Low Bronze - still learning the ropes of the game, very vulnerable to cheese which can keep these players down at the bottom pits of the ladder, unable to move up. Mid - High Bronze - they know the game, the counters, know what needs to be done, but lacking the execution to fully make what's happening in their minds to translate to the screen. They commonly have issues with scouting and making sense of what information is presented. Silver - They know the game reasonably well and can execute a build order fairly accurately, but have some challenges doing both Macro and Micro at the same time. Gold - These players represent the middle of the pack, and there are some genuinely scary players within. Innumerable Masters league players have smurf accounts in this league. The typical Gold player macros and micros with good degree of skill, and can take games from higher leagues, in many cases with finesse. Do not underestimate this league. Plat - One step above Gold, but this league also represents an enormous pack of players who are all fighting to break into diamond league. The constant infighting within creates an equilibrium which forces many within doomed to an stagnant existence within. Diamond and Masters - Elite creme of the crop, before GM. *EDIT When you beaten by a Gold player who seemed nigh unstoppable, I highly recommend that you message this player, say hello, compliment them on the game well played, and you'll be surprised how friendly and helpful many of them are. Chances are good that he/she is a Master in disguise this is a lame troll, master players do not have smurf accounts in gold. bronze - diamond: i don't know what the fuck i'm doing masters: i still don't know what the fuck i'm doing unless i'm all-inning, but i do it faster than diamond players can grandmasters: am i on the NA server? yes-> then you still don't know what the fuck you're doing
This is absolute bullshit. Basically anyone gold and up is generally doing proper build orders and strategy every single game, they just don't execute it flawlessly. There is no one in gold building like 5 gate robo before expo and other non sensical things.
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I am gold, and when trying to answer the question: what makes an X league better than an (X-1) league?
the answer I have found is:
nijaedit: warning, wall of text incoming.
all players that dont constantly build workers:
constant worker production is important, do it, only exception is zerg players (that build workers until bases are saturated) and when you have 70+ workers, moderation please.
bronze(no gameplan) - bronze (has gameplan):
because the worse bronzie doesn't have a gameplan he can't focus on what he want's to do and his macro is butchered, to people that doesn't have a gameplan I say:
get a gameplan, anything will do, I can guarantee you that if your gameplan is mass queen and you concentrate on going mass queen, you will be better off than if you didn't have a gameplan.
ANYTHING will do.
bronze(has gameplan) - silver:
neither player is anywhere close to decent here, so trying to do cute stuff like tweaking your unit composition oh so slighty or getting a tech you normally don't, is actually detrimental to the quality of the players.
example: you have made a gameplan consisting of "I want to go mass stalker" and then later see that your opponent is going for mass zergling, and you switch to half stalker, half zealot, then you will end up banking 100s or 1000s of gas because you are not spending them on stalkers, thus decreasing the efficiency of your macro and weakening your play, you would have been better off going mass stalker all the time.
for bronze players I say to concentrate on one of the following, mastering only one of them will almost certainly send you to silver league because of superior macro:
1. supply; NEVER GET SUPPLYBLOCKED EVER. rule of thumb: it is better to have a 30 supply cushion through the whole game than to be supplyblocked for 30 seconds.
2. money; spend it, don't bank it. rule of thumb: if you have 1000 minerals, build 1 hatchery if you are zerg or 2 gateways/barracks if you are protoss or terran, but avoid getting that much money to begin with if you can. if you are a protoss or terran then this cathegory also contains MINIMAL PRODUCTION QUEUEING.
3. expanding; an extremely common problem in bronze and silver league (not as prominent in silver league) is the refusal to go past 1 or 2 bases, YOU WILL QUICKLY FALL BEHIND IF YOU DO NOT EXPAND. rule of thumb for those players choosing this path: do funday monday expo crazy, aka you must expand every 5 ingame minutes and you must not expand at any other time.
silver - gold:
scouting start to matter.
around here players have a gameplan and can execute it fairly well, but nowhere near perfect, if bronze is horrible, silver is plain bad, then gold are scrubs. (me included)
for silver leaguers that want to get to gold I say:
don't watch your battles. (exception spellcasters, avoid building spellcasters)
interestingly enough, any micro you attempt to do will very likely not make your army any more efficient than if you had just A-moved it, remember, A-move will make all your units try to do as much damage as possible, DO NOT WATCH YOUR BATTLES, IT WILL IMPROVE YOUR PLAY.
if there is a silver league player reading this thinking to himself "my micro is good, I will disregard this advice because me microing is increasing the effectiveness of my units, this guy is ertainly referring to people that watch their battles and don't do anything while watching"
no, I am referring to you, you missed my point entirely, my point is the following:
lets say you have an army, lets say in an engagement both armies will die if you A-move, but you will be able to save 10 units if you micro (this is realistic, neither an over or underestimation).
the logical choice seem to be to micro the battle, however in reality microing the battle means in 90% of the cases that you stop macroing, go watch some of your replays, are all of your unit-producing buildings being used DURING THE BATTLE? an extremely common occurrence in gold league and down (occurring more the further down you go), is that the players stop macroing during battles, because they want to save those extra 10 units, but because they didn't macro, there was 30 units not being produced, so you end up having lots of money in the bank, but no units after the battle, you have a net loss of 20 units by microing the battle.
gold - platinum
if gold players are scrubs, platinum players are okay, the difference between gold and platinum is that platinum players do all of the above at the same time (macroing efficiently, expoing when they can, supplyblocks occur but are rare in comparison to silver or gold, the micro that does occur is not wasted apm and they macro while the battle is going on).
(the below is largely a progressive line of the skill being more and more refined, I may be wrong however since it is difficlut for me to gauge the skill of players far superior to me)
platinum - diamond
if platinum players are okay, diamond players are good, the difference is polished skill, diamond players do everything platinum players do but better.
tactics and cutesy stuff show their real potential around here and up.
diamond - master
master players are excellent players, they do everything diamond players do but better.
game balance matter around here and can start to be gauged.
master - grandmaster
grandmaster players are ****ing amazing, they do everything at once almost perfectly and extremely rarely make mistakes.
tl.dr
lower leagues: macro, NO CUTESY STUFF!
higher leagues: overall skill
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On June 25 2011 20:03 thepeonwhocould wrote:
Macro is the biggest factor that determines which league you will be in. It's only when you get to high diamond that things other than macro start becoming important (mostly scouting and being able to defend/react to cheese builds).
Scouting matters at all levels. A master level Zerg will not be able to hold a gold level 4 gate if he has no idea it's coming until the units hit his creep.
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i rekon its more about different TYPE of players than different SKILL level.
Bronze/Silver - mostly casual players, some newbie serious players
Gold/Plat - half average serious players, half casual/cheese players
Diamond - mostly above average serious players, some cheese/casual players
Master - mostly good serious players, few cheese/casual players
GM - very serious players only
EDIT:
if you have previous RTS experience you should get into gold/plat almost straight off the bat
if you have previous Starcraft experience you should get into diamond even master if you just do timing attacks almost straight off the bat.
if you are a casual player with no RTS experience you can just learn 1 base builds and/or cheese to get into plat very quickly or diamond even.
if you are a serious player, if you still haven't got into gold after 200-300 games. I think there is some specific things that are holding you back. You should get someone from diamond/master to help you out or post on TL.
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On June 25 2011 20:23 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 20:03 thepeonwhocould wrote:
Macro is the biggest factor that determines which league you will be in. It's only when you get to high diamond that things other than macro start becoming important (mostly scouting and being able to defend/react to cheese builds). Scouting matters at all levels. A master level Zerg will not be able to hold a gold level 4 gate if he has no idea it's coming until the units hit his creep.
it doesnt really matter until you get to the level where you actually understand what you are scouting for and what it means and how to react to it, honestly a bronze player could scout a 4 gate coming and completely not prepare for it cause he doesnt know the difference between a 4 gate or a 3 gate and doesnt even realize hes getting 4 gated or even how to appropriatly respond to it.
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On June 25 2011 20:18 lunchforthesky wrote:
People assume the skill of silver/gold players hasn't risen like everyone elses. There is almost no players around now who don't make workers, don't execute a very basic strategy etc.. like there was in early release/beta. Even bronze kids can 4 gate, bunker rush, stim timing etc..
Exactly this! I agree so much with this.
I played a silver lately who had 150 apm throughout the entire game, dropped on every corner on the map and was everywhere at once and always had the nice unit compositions and spended his minerals. According to this topic silver players are players who get supplyblocked all the time, dont make workers, have terrible macro + multitasking and 10 apm while wacthing their armies die. Face it; t he skilllevel has been upgraded in these kind of leagues for sure and they aren't the clueless newbies anymore they used to be.
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EPT
