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On June 17 2011 13:04 duckducktiM wrote:
I'm an econ major, but it dosen't take someone with any of knowledge to know that the following equation:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
this has nothing to do with ANYTHING esports related.. or is extremely trivial... the money that is won in tournaments is probably not reinvested within in esports.. yea maybe it'll effect the overall GDP of the united states (lol) which is pretty meaningless, but it doesn't affect the "circulation" of money within esports.. I doubt any foreigner whose won e-sports reinvested the prize money on something esports related
Secondly, if you want to use economics as an argument then you can use the example of "smaller less efficient firms (foreigners) being subsidized/helped (team houses, overseas training) to become more efficient to then be able to compete... these subsidies may be a short term loss but will be beneficial in the long run as firms (players) become more efficient (better) and are able to compete with other firms (koreans).
tl;dr - tough it out, in the long run it'll all be good.
Thanks for taking time to type this out. I'm not an econ major myself, I give you that (took classes voluntarlily for a year, 'coz I was just interested in the subject). I don't deny not understanding everything and I can see how applying this formula (created for countries) to eSports can look dodgy, hardly applicable, but I disagree about the circulation aspect.
TotalBiscuit is one such example (granted not a player, but I can't come up with someone else at 7 a.m. in the morning). The money that he makes from casting tournaments is used to fund his own tournaments, then tournaments give ad money for new tournaments - like the newly SHOUTcraft Invitational. There's definitely some circulation there.
CatZ said it way better than me, because well...he's fucking CatZ, he knows what he meant. And I may be completely wrong or just a little bit right or god forbids, spot on even, but I think this is just an interesting subject to discuss.
P.S. this was sparked by a comment on reddit discussing that there are few americans in NASL finals, it was basically making fun/shitting on CatZ for his statements. And as I've said my comment got a little...lengthy.
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On June 17 2011 13:26 MidnightSun001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:04 duckducktiM wrote:
I'm an econ major, but it dosen't take someone with any of knowledge to know that the following equation:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
this has nothing to do with ANYTHING esports related.. or is extremely trivial... the money that is won in tournaments is probably not reinvested within in esports.. yea maybe it'll effect the overall GDP of the united states (lol) which is pretty meaningless, but it doesn't affect the "circulation" of money within esports.. I doubt any foreigner whose won e-sports reinvested the prize money on something esports related
Secondly, if you want to use economics as an argument then you can use the example of "smaller less efficient firms (foreigners) being subsidized/helped (team houses, overseas training) to become more efficient to then be able to compete... these subsidies may be a short term loss but will be beneficial in the long run as firms (players) become more efficient (better) and are able to compete with other firms (koreans).
tl;dr - tough it out, in the long run it'll all be good. Thanks for taking time to type this out. I'm not an econ major myself, I give you that (took classes voluntarlily for a year, 'coz I was just interested in the subject). I don't deny not understanding everything and I can see how applying this formula (created for countries) to eSports can look dodgy, hardly applicable, but I disagree about the circulation aspect. TotalBiscuit is one such example (granted not a player, but I can't come up with someone else at 7 a.m. in the morning). The money that he makes from casting tournaments is used to fund his own tournaments, then tournaments give ad money for new tournaments - like the newly SHOUTcraft Invitational. There's definitely some circulation there. CatZ said it way better than me, because well...he's fucking CatZ, he knows what he meant. And I may be completely wrong or just a little bit right or god forbids, spot on even, but I think this is just an interesting subject to discuss. P.S. this was sparked by a comment on reddit discussing that there are few americans in NASL finals, it was basically making fun/shitting on CatZ for his statements. And as I've said my comment got a little...lengthy.
so catz is going to create new catz tournaments???? stupid example.
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As a spectator I feel that the skillgap between foreigner players are too far away from each other to make games interresting to watch. Even now alot of NASL games are so one-sided it's not worth watching. I barely tune in nowadays unless it's two players who've shown some form of consistency or there are games that i've gotten highly recommended.
There's provably a reason why there's none to few(I can't really name any) foreign or korean sc2 tournaments(made up number: 30k+ usd winnings) that's run at a regular basis. I don't really see any entrepreneurs brave enough to try running large scale tournaments on a regional level. Hell, it's going to be hard trying to sell that idea to someone who could fund it.
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On June 17 2011 11:39 MidnightSun001 wrote:
1. CatZ is racist – FALSE - he doesn‘t agree with koreans competing in NASL, not because of their race, but locale. Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
First of all, the 'He's a minority too so he can't be racist!' argument is dumb, as if anyone non-white can't be racist.
Second, this would be a good counterargument IF he didn't single out Koreans. However, why doesn't he say the same things about Europeans? He says nothing about Euro players in the NASL.
Well, that one‘s easy, let‘s do another one.
2. CatZ wants to win more money and is afraid of korean competition – FALSE – this argument is of purely economical inclination, Paolo is saying that the prize money should stay and circulate in the foreign Starcraft scene – I will go into deeper detail on this in a second.
Before jumping to any of these previously mentioned false conclusions you should ask yourself how much do you know about money flow. The CatZ argument is purely economically inclined. There is no "boo-hoo they too strong and doesn't afraid of anything" here. When you're thinking of CatZ's statement's you should consider...
A simple economical formula that most students know:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
What CatZ is talking about is the "(X-M)" part which stands for net exports. It is the diffrence of export versus import. When import is higher than export (money leaks) GDP is smaller. If consumers buy more foreign products than local ones, net export is negative. In other words, buying goods from a foreign country fuels money to that country's economy, while your country gets into shit financial situation if this phenomena is en masse.
Here's a real world example, one that was given to me by a macroeconomics proffesor in my university, an example that is very relevant to me.
Lithuania joined the European Union. The small(er) business here were bought out by foreign competitors. The products that people buy are often products of foreign companies. This makes import high and export low. If this negative isn‘t compesated by other factos in the formula the national debt is piling up as net export remains negative. That‘s where This leads to huge economical tendencies that I won't go into about.
Now imagine that different countries are different Starcraft e-sports scenes with a completely free trading market. The growing "western" and the "already-developed" korean scene. The western scene is developing and is starting to create some revenue, however the korean scene, which is already big, competes for the same money. Money is leaked from the western scene into the korean scene via prize pool (as korean players are better financed, received better conditions and training for years, while western players could only do this as a hobby). It is natural for the korean scene to dwarf the underdeveloped western scene. A korean winning a foreign tournament means more money for korean e-sports. If a korean stays and competes in North America, he is part of THAT scene. This is why CatZ does not oppose koreans STAYING to compete in NA tournaments. Stricly speaking the „already developed“ scene would suck funds out of the „developing“ one. This is why Koreans winning foreign tournaments can be POTENTIALLY bad for foreign eSports.
Granted, this is only pize pool money we‘re talking about. It is also unfair to say that all of the money will remain in one particular scene, afterall there is a fair trade going on between the two. However, you have to admit the point remains valid.
CatZ‘s argument is purely economical and I want you to understand this perspective.
This short article was not written to change your opinion, it does not instrigate any hostilities toward any nation whatsoever. In the end, take this opinion for what it is – a way to look at the subject. I do not expect for you to agree with the reasoning, nor to change it, but I want you to understand that there is perfectly reasonable rationale behind Catz‘s argument. Everyone has their own opinion and is free to (respectfully) disagree, I hope that this article at least helped to explain the CatZ‘s side of the argument.
Edit: I agree that Koreans can bring interest and revenue to the foreign scene, no doubt they have a positive influence as well, but they can also harm development of foreign Starcraft 2 scene (not purposely of course!). Which approach - "protectionarist" or "free market" is better is a very difficult thing to say, I just wanted to explain the the logic behind protectionarism and CatZ's approach to the matter. I hope the video is enough to give you a view of what CatZ's argument actually was.
This argument is even more brittle. You're trying to compare macro-economics to the NASL? Is that a joke? I've seen a lot of bad analogies/comparisons on these forums, but this is by far the worst. The NASL isn't a self sustaining economy. It gets money from sponsors and stream subscriptions. The prize money it gives out does NOT come full circle and feed the NASL.
Also, you do realize that the foreign scene is considered MORE lucrative right now? So that destroys your entire assumption that the Korean scene dwarfs the foreign scene in terms of economics. There's a reason players like Idra, TLO and such have left Korea. There's more money and opportunity to be had abroad, and it's easier at that.
I seriously don't get why all these anti-Koreans feel the need to make a new thread every time they want to spout this illogical nonsense. There's been 3-4 threads by people with similar mindsets as you.
On June 17 2011 13:09 coL.CatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:46 Rekrul wrote:On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses". It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer". I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges. Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example. Anyways not trying to be the bad guy here, and im not gonna argue much on this thread, this is what I believe we need in order to see something like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/koreastarcraft.jpg/ outside of korea. Many top SC1 players had motivation year-round despite the fact that the most they could potentially win was a trip somewhere for WCG (just ask Artosis LOL). Just because of the fact that the gaming industry is ready for SC2 to be it's new big competitive game does not mean that the current top foreign players are simply 'entitled' to having a good shot at that prize money. I believe within 1-2 years we'll be seeing many new hungry talented faces competing for prizes in and outside of Korea so for you to say "we are trying hard to help e-sports blah blah" is extremely self serving. The gamers of course are needed to drive the industry, but the fact is that gamers are not playing for 'E-SPORTS' they are playing for themselves. For a foreign player to argue that it should be more segregated for the sake of 'E-sports' is pretty pathetic. One thing you are right about is that if the Koreans are so much better and will just rape everything if they are all allowed to compete in foreign tournaments via-online qualifiers etc. it will certainly hamper the growth in some ways (though might help in many ways you have not addressed). This is true and certainly some non-korean 'Champions' would certainly help 'E-SPORTS.' I believe that Koreans wiill dominate long term over-all but once some solid foreign team houses with good practice environments (with koreans) get established over the next couple of years it will certainly narrow the gap. But for you, as a player, if you want to help E-Sports it's probably better for you to try and get to the level of the Koreans rather than sit around making some mundane arguments which pretty much are saying 'we deserve an easier shot at the $' This wasn't a video I made in order to make people not invite koreans to their leagues, its simply my opinion on Home grown esports, and the growth of a community, not of me as a player, realistically, if I played a tournament today with the top non-koreans i'd still stand very little chance to win, but at least in my particular case, If I knew that my chances were improved, heck, lets narrow it down even more... If there was -just- a 3000$ prize-pool tournament in florida, for florida residents, I'd practice my ass off for it, because I know that my chances to win would be much bigger, then weather I win it or lose it, I will have become a better player, and if the circle continued, before you know it im devoting all of my time into practicing like I should practice, listening to less songs and singing less on my stream, and becoming a better player who could potentially compete with anyone in the world. THEN I go and play in tournaments with everyone else outside of florida, and if this had happened in every location, everyone will by then have become better players. So obviously im not saying organize a large tournament in florida so I can make more $, im just trying to show what I mean to say here, if there are SOME leagues that SOME players will believe they have a better shot at winning, they'll practice harder for them, become better players and help esports grow, idc if its me or whoever else. Right now, players outside of korea, have a shot at generation better revenue by 'getting out there' being more 'popular' 'raging' etc. Because this means they'll get more stream viewers and more Lessons and whatever else, very few players, like maybe KiWiKaKi will focus all of their efforts in gaming (because as many people know, he's wealthy already) as a result he's much better than most 'pros' who for the most part need to make a living off of the game somehow, not necessarily by playing the game 24/7 and being the best and going to a tournament and winning it. I think local leagues or even national, leagues, where you realistically can have a shot at the prize pool would drive A LOT more of these players to play the game more and become the best players they can become. Its false that fans won't support this leagues or not watch them if there's no Koreans in it, if that is true, its a small percentage, IPL season one proved that, with good production, it was driving more viewers than NASL was at the time (even though NASL had koreans competing in it). Im not scared to play Koreans either, I'd LOVE to measure myself against them more often even if I get rapeddddd. But if we continue on this path, you're looking at broodwar 2 in a couple years.
This is the problem with your viewpoint entirely: you think about it in terms of money. You say you'd 'try harder' if the money was easier to gain, well, that's exactly your problem right there.
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Stopped reading at the equation. Who the @#$ knows what C or G or I means? Why make this stuff more complicated than it is? Explaining requires making things simpler, not harder.
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On June 17 2011 13:31 dizzy101 wrote:
Stopped reading at the equation. Who the @#$ knows what C or G or I means? Why make this stuff more complicated than it is? Explaining requires making things simpler, not harder.
It's meaningless jargon to try and make him sound more authoritative. Essentially it's saying that money earned should be used to re-invest in itself and make even more money, but that's a faulty line of reasoning considering people who get tournament winnings don't take that money and re-invest in esports.
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I don't there will ever be the kind of skill gap between Koreans and foreigners in SC2 as there was in BW, just because the game is less mechanically demanding.
Tbh I think the root of this is about who you are practising against. If foreigners were able to practise against top Koreans I don't think any of this would be so much of an issue. As it is the communities are relatively segregated, if not by language barriers or latency then by the artificial one Blizzard put up; Servers. Perhaps tournaments should reflect that fact.
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Reading the comments I just had the thought: How did the Korean league start? I know for a fact that the Starcraft cult in Korea wasn't something that happened overnight. It took dedicated players and people making risky choices in order for it to grow and expand to the size it has today. So I feel that you have make the same choices and the same risky "business," except for the fact that you have something to work off from. Korean, relatively, started their Starcraft movement from scratch. The U.S already had a huge fan base and you have to tap into that as a resource, not necessarily in the streaming sense, but in the sense that fans = commercial potential and commercial potential = potential sponsors. And I have to agree with alot of the above said statements in that your chances of winning should be a motivation of practicing and training hard instead of trying to filter in and segregate the regional leagues until the U.S. pro scene is comfortable enough to allow Koreans in. You guys are professional GAMERS, as in you play games, which means that first and foremost you have a passion for the game. I feel that this is being looked at by catz (as well as many others probably,) as something too far into the business means of things,
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how the hell is some random LAN in FL going to have a $3k prize pool unless....(sorry) better players than catz are there? this mythical tournament is what catz says he needs to get better. umm...ok. i'd probably get better too if there's some random NYC LAN for diamond players for $3k as well. doesn't mean that my pocket equals ESPORTZ
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Northern Ireland25342 Posts
It's an issue though if the Koreans are snapping up every tournament. As things stand I think there's a nice balance, a few Korean invites to the MLG/Dreamhack etc seems fair to me, it'll BECOME a problem if it becomes the norm for every single Western tournament however.
The financial incentive NEEDS to be there for Western players in order for them to play full time, get practice environments in which they can compete on an even footing with Koreans. As it stands there are foreigners who can do this, but they are few and far between really. Somebody like Kiwikaki is already independently wealthy, so can afford to play full time. Idra has solid mechanics down from his BW days, so he can afford to slack off a bit, he's even said in the past that his mechanics are good enough that he can practice less, something that he may step up in the future. Players of this ilk are rare, and those who DID go over to Korea aren't exactly reaping the rewards.
I mean Huk and Jinro didn't get over to Columbus what with their prior commitments/whatever reason existed there
Take Destiny as an example of sorts. He's not at the absolute elite level yet ofc, but is his development being helped by having to mass ladder and coach to pay the bills? It cuts into whatever serious practice he wants to do
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haha catz talking about broodwar2 is just ridiculous sry. the koreans just got GSL and 1-2 small cups while the western scene got 2378923478923487923 cups with solid pricemoney and even more major tournaments.
how can u rly have a motivational problem with that much money floating arround in the western scene? and whats your point with the florida lan? u want 80.000$ tourneys for F-class-Players that nearly nobody wants to watch?
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On June 17 2011 13:37 Davion wrote:
Reading the comments I just had the thought: How did the Korean league start? I know for a fact that the Starcraft cult in Korea wasn't something that happened overnight. It took dedicated players and people making risky choices in order for it to grow and expand to the size it has today. So I feel that you have make the same choices and the same risky "business," except for the fact that you have something to work off from. Korean, relatively, started their Starcraft movement from scratch. The U.S already had a huge fan base and you have to tap into that as a resource, not necessarily in the streaming sense, but in the sense that fans = commercial potential and commercial potential = potential sponsors. And I have to agree with alot of the above said statements in that your chances of winning should be a motivation of practicing and training hard instead of trying to filter in and segregate the regional leagues until the U.S. pro scene is comfortable enough to allow Koreans in. You guys are professional GAMERS, as in you play games, which means that first and foremost you have a passion for the game. I feel that this is being looked at by catz (as well as many others probably,) as something too far into the business means of things,
It was actually less romantic. Basically Japan was a pretty big video game producer back then, but Korea especially during that time HATED anything Japan so PC gaming was pretty big. And what was the best PC game out there?
But it did take HUGE risks, dedication and willingness to improve.
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On June 17 2011 13:02 toastnbutter wrote:
i think some of you guys are bashing catz for the wrong reasons. this is what i take away from catz's thoughts:
he just wants to see the foreign e-sports scene to become more fully developed first in their respective regions. and by that i mean for e-sports to eventually become a legitimate competition in the eyes of a John Smith who would otherwise hear the word "e-sports" and go "wtf is that?".
let's take professional soccer or basketball or any other major sport as an example. each country has their own developed leagues for such sports. and within each of those leagues are their own teams who compete amongst each other. and once in a while there are prestigious global events where these leagues compete against one another for a World Title (example: Olympics, etc.)
i think catz just means that he would like to see the foregin e-sport scenes to develop nicely on their own and catch up tp the developed Korean scene before they try to compete together. that's not to say that if a Korean player wanted to come to MLG they can't...they most certainly are welcome to come over to compete. however, it'd be better for the foreign scene if these players decided they wanted to compete by living in the foreign scene. (example: Yao Ming of the NBA)
that's just my take on CatZ's ideas. im not agreeing or disagreeing with him, i just feel like people are bashing his thoughts for no reason or bashing him because they are misunderstanding the points being made.
quoting his first post on TL that puts many of you to shame. I can't even tell whether some people are not able or not willing to read Catz's statements.
on the actual argument: you do raise a valid concern. it isn't too far-fetched either. it should be understood that a healthy enviroment is one that consist of a wide variety of sustainability.
let's draw a parabel: imagine soccer would only have 1 fat ass tournament, huge prizepool, best players, walla walla. nothing else. wow, pretty cool. sure, all the little ronaldo's and beckham's would love to be on the top one day. sadly they won't make it out of the gutter without someone in town to play with, to fail in their churches' community tournament, get beaten by their school coach to stop doing drugs, get an bench-warmer offer by scouts of the second best team in their regional division, advance to the national league as the youngest player in history. you get the drift.
now there is a historical romanticism involved in pro-gaming. "warriors" that conquered their way through just with their sheer will and their thruthful 12$ dell mouse. what does make for a great story is inapplicable for real life. history has the tendendy to repeat itself. we have seen countless of games being at the brink and beyond. as much as everybody wants to believe, SC2 is nowhere near a "safe state". for all we know this shit could be over by the next recession.
now what you, Catz, want is perfectly reasonable. an enviroment that not only feeds the top 1%, but is also able to curate talent out of itself. but frankly, I just don't see enough money involved yet.
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On June 17 2011 12:38 coL.CatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:34 namedplayer wrote:
so what is his point?
'Don't let Koreans compete in western scene because White dudez can't beat Koreans?'
why don't he just practice harder and try to beat Koreans? hm... maybe he just doesn't wanna practice harder. Ideally in my fantasy would there would be plenty of tournaments as there are now where koreans can be measured against non-koreans, and provided the scene has some time to breathe and grow, I think you'd get to see a lot more interesting matches.
The foreign scene had as much time to 'grow and breath' as the Korean scene. I would argue more time, actually. For a long time in beta, the Korean scene was largely unknown to the West. You try to create this impression that the Koreans were secretly playing SC2 for three decades before the NA scene or something.
And don't start with the 'BW infrastructure' bs, because there's exactly zero high level BW pros who swapped over to SC2. They were either established BW legends like July/Nada/Boxer who weren't hyper competitive in BW at the time of SC2, or second-tier BW players. Nestea for example had very abysmal stats in BW, yet is now one of the top SC2 players. He didn't have any magical infrastructure to support him: he played at home and in fact STILL lives at home and doesn't even live at the IM house.
On June 17 2011 13:40 Ubertron wrote:
It's an issue though if the Koreans are snapping up every tournament. As things stand I think there's a nice balance, a few Korean invites to the MLG/Dreamhack etc seems fair to me, it'll BECOME a problem if it becomes the norm for every single Western tournament however.
The financial incentive NEEDS to be there for Western players in order for them to play full time, get practice environments in which they can compete on an even footing with Koreans. As it stands there are foreigners who can do this, but they are few and far between really. Somebody like Kiwikaki is already independently wealthy, so can afford to play full time. Idra has solid mechanics down from his BW days, so he can afford to slack off a bit, he's even said in the past that his mechanics are good enough that he can practice less, something that he may step up in the future. Players of this ilk are rare, and those who DID go over to Korea aren't exactly reaping the rewards.
I mean Huk and Jinro didn't get over to Columbus what with their prior commitments/whatever reason existed there
Take Destiny as an example of sorts. He's not at the absolute elite level yet ofc, but is his development being helped by having to mass ladder and coach to pay the bills? It cuts into whatever serious practice he wants to do
So then where are these Korean players getting their money from? Are you trying to claim the average Korean gamer is more affluent than the average American gamer? You'll bring up practice houses and teams, but you'll be confusing the cause with the effect. In the beginning, there were no practice houses or teams for SC2; the biggest thing was oGs which was a clan. If you look at the background of every top Korean now, they started off just like anyone else: playing solo on the ladder in their own home.
Once again, it's the mythical assumption that in Korea you can drop everything and just play games all day and not have to worry about bills/food/housing. Right, just like in America I can stop going to school/work and just play basketball all day, cause the NBA exists here, right?
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i think catz is mistaken about the trajectory of the game but i understand what he's saying, in his ideal situation not only would he make more money (nothing wrong with that, sorry guys) but the scene in the americas and europe would grow faster as well... i just don't think it's realistic. growing an industry like this, you aren't going to find the resources to be having state or regional tournaments with four figure cash prizes.
the game has to grow organically here in the US for the money to come. there is no source for the money to come from first and the growth that would come from attraction to the money. unless maybe we can get some venture capitalists together to plop down 5 or 10 mill on making sc2 americas first major esport, someone call mark cuban maybe? he's in a pretty good right now from what i hear, he might go for it. especially if hes drunk and taking a picture of himself pissing with the trophy in his bathroom when we call.
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He was already thrown under the bus by making these comments why bring it up and do it all over again to him. He is forgetting a key factor of one of the largest factors of what makes esports grow. The fans. The final selling point on me purchasing a premium feature for the NASL was the acceptance of Koreans, they provide amazing games.
The money is easily out there for the players, whether its one of the many small tournaments or the invitationals. Its also possible as many of them sell lessons for about $40 an hour. ROOT as well just got picked up by Complexity so that should be even more motivation to perform.
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On June 17 2011 13:06 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:50 coL.CatZ wrote:
I agree with everything you said, except on the long-term brood war has proven what's gonna happen it won't be better for e sports outside of Korea, period, sure you can still turn on your computer and watch the korean tournaments and the best players in the world in a couple of years from now, but if you wanna go watch those events live, you'll have to fly over. There's a reason blizzard put starcraft logos in Air Korea planes and not American Airlines, why blizzard helped make the GSL in korea and not somewhere else, its strictly financial in this cases, the scene there is already built, e-sports are widely accepted and so to sell their new game and generate more revenue, they chose to go to the already-stablished country, the 'home' of esports, or why Liquid moved to korea in the first place, the scene is much bigger and so is the support and acceptance, its just better atm, its a much more player-friendly environment systems and practice houses and coaches are in place, its better to move to korea if you want to improve as a player, there's no doubt about that. Here in the west its just getting started, there are very few houses, with very few players, none with a coach, and likely none with practice / eating schedules, its MUCH harder to start doing something like this here, because we (esports) are just starting (hopefully) to grow here. ...Seriously? The SC2 eSports scene has had FUCKING huge growth in ONE year. Why are you complaining that it's not on TV, that you're not seeing ads in planes when the western esports market as a whole has done what was UNTHINKABLE two years ago. So that's it huh? Since you don't have you're "support" or whatever all the players outside of Korea are going to die out and that'll be that? That's just... gah. Liquid didn't move to Korea to get better. They already WERE FUCKING AWESOME and they went their to TAKE IT to the KOREANS. They did exactly the opposite of what you want and decided to TAKE UP THE CHALLENGE and FIGHT the MOST skilled professional starcraft2 players in the world. Coaches, pro houses and all that stupid nonsense don't make the players, they just help them. You can make excuses all you want, but being a starcraft2 player comes down to HARD WORK and players like IdrA can attest to that with their ridiculous practice schedules.
Wow you're annoying
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In my opinion Catz's view of esport is totally different than reality of esport, where the number of viewers and sponsors are the real driven force.
Players with big fan base made the name for themself by playing good on an international stage, not by winning regional tournaments where majority of viewers are locals.
For a regional league to stay afloat with a reasonable prize pool, you first have to show some results, as in the players from the regional league are near equal with the foreign players. With no result sponsors wouldn't dare to invest money in a regional league, because it would means low viewership, you're basically talking about the money that wouldn't exists in the first place.
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MLG Columbus without the Koreans would have been pretty boring.
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You could always call and ask the Ivy Leagues on their current strategies of preventing asian americans from making up 50%+ of the student population.
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EPT
