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On June 17 2011 12:51 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 11:58 sc2olorin wrote:
As long as the prize distribution at foreign tournaments such as the NASL and MLG remains so top-heavy, this position is fundamentally flawed.
When the winner is taking home roughly half the prize pool, it doesn't matter whether that winner is Korean, or American, or whatever.
Until prize pools rise to the point where professional players can be in the middle of the pack skill-wise and still make a living off of their earnings, we don't need to worry about such matters.
If anything, having more Koreans participate will speed up the process of having higher prize pools since they draw more viewers, and more viewers equals more money from sponsors. The top heavy prize distribution is completely stupid and like nobody learned anything from the past. Yes let's allow a few people ALL of the money in gaming! Putting are putting like over a million into tournament winnings yet how much is into teams and salaries? Scene is fucked. Again.
Agree. Players should not need to rely on prize winnings as their main motivation for playing. They should be paid enough by their teams so that winning a large tournament every now and then is only a bonus to being a pro-gamer.
However, with the top-heavy prize distribution model, teams cannot afford to pay their players a high enough salary, since most teams won't get a dime of prize money from a large event.
My contention is that the drastic increase in viewership stemming from inviting Koreans will raise the viewer count, thereby increasing sponsorship interest and money, thereby increasing the total prize pool.
Combine that with an improved prize distribution model, which critically will allow teams to be able to send their players to an event and actually make a profit instead of losing money, and eventually we should see the ESPORTS scene in North America flourish.
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I'm an econ major, but it dosen't take someone with any of knowledge to know that the following equation:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
this has nothing to do with ANYTHING esports related.. or is extremely trivial... the money that is won in tournaments is probably not reinvested within in esports.. yea maybe it'll effect the overall GDP of the united states (lol) which is pretty meaningless, but it doesn't affect the "circulation" of money within esports.. I doubt any foreigner whose won e-sports reinvested the prize money on something esports related
Secondly, if you want to use economics as an argument then you can use the example of "smaller less efficient firms (foreigners) being subsidized/helped (team houses, overseas training) to become more efficient to then be able to compete... these subsidies may be a short term loss but will be beneficial in the long run as firms (players) become more efficient (better) and are able to compete with other firms (koreans).
tl;dr - tough it out, in the long run it'll all be good.
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On June 17 2011 13:04 duckducktiM wrote:
I'm an econ major, but it dosen't take someone with any of knowledge to know that following equation:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
this has nothing to do with ANYTHING esports related.. or is extremely trivial... the money that is won in tournaments is probably not reinvested within in esports.. yea maybe it'll effect the overall GDP of the united states (lol) which is pretty meaningless, but it doesn't affect the "circulation" of money within esports.. I doubt any foreigner whose won e-sports reinvested the prize money on something esports related
Secondly, if you want to use economics as an argument then you can use the example of "smaller less efficient firms (foreigners) being subsidized/helped (team houses, overseas training) to become more efficient to then be able to compete... these subsidies may be a short term lose but well be beneficial in the long run as firms (players) become more efficient (better) and are able to compete with other firms (koreans).
tl;dr - tough it out, in the long run it'll all be good.
Not to mention that all the Koreans joining foreign teams means that there's even less of a distinction now than ever before, and some of that "korean won" prize money is going back to foreign teams. Even if I don't really agree with that line of thinking...
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On June 17 2011 12:50 coL.CatZ wrote:
I agree with everything you said, except on the long-term brood war has proven what's gonna happen it won't be better for e sports outside of Korea, period, sure you can still turn on your computer and watch the korean tournaments and the best players in the world in a couple of years from now, but if you wanna go watch those events live, you'll have to fly over. There's a reason blizzard put starcraft logos in Air Korea planes and not American Airlines, why blizzard helped make the GSL in korea and not somewhere else, its strictly financial in this cases, the scene there is already built, e-sports are widely accepted and so to sell their new game and generate more revenue, they chose to go to the already-stablished country, the 'home' of esports, or why Liquid moved to korea in the first place, the scene is much bigger and so is the support and acceptance, its just better atm, its a much more player-friendly environment systems and practice houses and coaches are in place, its better to move to korea if you want to improve as a player, there's no doubt about that. Here in the west its just getting started, there are very few houses, with very few players, none with a coach, and likely none with practice / eating schedules, its MUCH harder to start doing something like this here, because we (esports) are just starting (hopefully) to grow here.
...Seriously?
The SC2 eSports scene has had FUCKING huge growth in ONE year. Why are you complaining that it's not on TV, that you're not seeing ads in planes when the western esports market as a whole has done what was UNTHINKABLE two years ago.
So that's it huh? Since you don't have you're "support" or whatever all the players outside of Korea are going to die out and that'll be that?
That's just... gah.
Liquid didn't move to Korea to get better. They already WERE FUCKING AWESOME and they went their to TAKE IT to the KOREANS. They did exactly the opposite of what you want and decided to TAKE UP THE CHALLENGE and FIGHT the MOST skilled professional starcraft2 players in the world. Coaches, pro houses and all that stupid nonsense don't make the players, they just help them.
You can make excuses all you want, but being a starcraft2 player comes down to HARD WORK and players like IdrA can attest to that with their ridiculous practice schedules.
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On June 17 2011 12:59 cive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses". It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer". I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges. Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example. Anyways not trying to be the bad guy here, and im not gonna argue much on this thread, this is what I believe we need in order to see something like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/koreastarcraft.jpg/ outside of korea. I see where you are coming from. However, I cannot agree with you because the viewers can view tournaments from all over the world. I think IGN Pro League was one of the most professionally presented Starcraft 2 until now. However, the player pool was not what we call the best. To borrow IdrA's words "It was just a bunch of Americans". It looked great but I would watch DreamHack or MLG over IPL. Going back to your words, you stated that Koreans take all the prize which discourages people in America to compete. I can translate it as "Koreans are better than Americans (in SC2)". But the viewers want "the best players". If these are true, and we cut Koreans out of the tournament viewers will decrease until Americans become as good as Koreans. But wait, we are in a closed system so we don't know if Americans are better than Koreans unless they compete in Korea or European tournaments with Koreans. IMO, American players are inevitable to face Koreans. The problems you speak of now will happen sooner or later. I don't think your trying to be a bad guy. You want to have a long career in SC2 with many other pros in America like IdrA, InControl, Select and Cruncher. However we should all think about why MLG, DreamHack, FXO, Team Liquid, Naniwa, Thorzain and many others feel it is really important to be connected with Korean players.
you dont get the point.
it's not about keeping koreans away, it's about establishing regional events (which would if they don't live in that certain region) next to all the global ones. it's about what is the best way to help e-sports evolve. to create something inbetween ladder and NASL / GSL / MLG.
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The consumers are Foreigners, it's not an import if the competition and most of the money that is earned by the tournament hosts is in the US. The only real import is GSL, and if you're really xenophobic then stop buying subscriptions to watching GSL (not seriously advised). What the Koreans can win in tournaments is negligible to the amount of money of having the tournament featuring Koreans raised in the Foreign scene.
If you really want to export Foreign esports to Korea, you want to have as much Korean viewers as possible who pay for premium services. Maybe one day, they'll bring their own version of Tastosis to commentate NASL or MLG and etc...
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On June 17 2011 12:46 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses". It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer". I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges. Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example. Anyways not trying to be the bad guy here, and im not gonna argue much on this thread, this is what I believe we need in order to see something like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/koreastarcraft.jpg/ outside of korea. Many top SC1 players had motivation year-round despite the fact that the most they could potentially win was a trip somewhere for WCG (just ask Artosis LOL). Just because of the fact that the gaming industry is ready for SC2 to be it's new big competitive game does not mean that the current top foreign players are simply 'entitled' to having a good shot at that prize money. I believe within 1-2 years we'll be seeing many new hungry talented faces competing for prizes in and outside of Korea so for you to say "we are trying hard to help e-sports blah blah" is extremely self serving. The gamers of course are needed to drive the industry, but the fact is that gamers are not playing for 'E-SPORTS' they are playing for themselves. For a foreign player to argue that it should be more segregated for the sake of 'E-sports' is pretty pathetic. One thing you are right about is that if the Koreans are so much better and will just rape everything if they are all allowed to compete in foreign tournaments via-online qualifiers etc. it will certainly hamper the growth in some ways (though might help in many ways you have not addressed). This is true and certainly some non-korean 'Champions' would certainly help 'E-SPORTS.' I believe that Koreans wiill dominate long term over-all but once some solid foreign team houses with good practice environments (with koreans) get established over the next couple of years it will certainly narrow the gap. But for you, as a player, if you want to help E-Sports it's probably better for you to try and get to the level of the Koreans rather than sit around making some mundane arguments which pretty much are saying 'we deserve an easier shot at the $'
This wasn't a video I made in order to make people not invite koreans to their leagues, its simply my opinion on Home grown esports, and the growth of a community, not of me as a player, realistically, if I played a tournament today with the top non-koreans i'd still stand very little chance to win, but at least in my particular case, If I knew that my chances were improved, heck, lets narrow it down even more... If there was -just- a 3000$ prize-pool tournament in florida, for florida residents, I'd practice my ass off for it, because I know that my chances to win would be much bigger, then weather I win it or lose it, I will have become a better player, and if the circle continued, before you know it im devoting all of my time into practicing like I should practice, listening to less songs and singing less on my stream, and becoming a better player who could potentially compete with anyone in the world. THEN I go and play in tournaments with everyone else outside of florida, and if this had happened in every location, everyone will by then have become better players. So obviously im not saying organize a large tournament in florida so I can make more $, im just trying to show what I mean to say here, if there are SOME leagues that SOME players will believe they have a better shot at winning, they'll practice harder for them, become better players and help esports grow, idc if its me or whoever else. Right now, players outside of korea, have a shot at generation better revenue by 'getting out there' being more 'popular' 'raging' etc. Because this means they'll get more stream viewers and more Lessons and whatever else, very few players, like maybe KiWiKaKi will focus all of their efforts in gaming (because as many people know, he's wealthy already) as a result he's much better than most 'pros' who for the most part need to make a living off of the game somehow, not necessarily by playing the game 24/7 and being the best and going to a tournament and winning it.
I think local leagues or even national, leagues, where you realistically can have a shot at the prize pool would drive A LOT more of these players to play the game more and become the best players they can become. Its false that fans won't support this leagues or not watch them if there's no Koreans in it, if that is true, its a small percentage, IPL season one proved that, with good production, it was driving more viewers than NASL was at the time (even though NASL had koreans competing in it).
Im not scared to play Koreans either, I'd LOVE to measure myself against them more often even if I get rapeddddd. But if we continue on this path, you're looking at broodwar 2 in a couple years.
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On June 17 2011 13:07 sparC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:59 cive wrote:On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses". It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer". I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges. Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example. Anyways not trying to be the bad guy here, and im not gonna argue much on this thread, this is what I believe we need in order to see something like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/koreastarcraft.jpg/ outside of korea. I see where you are coming from. However, I cannot agree with you because the viewers can view tournaments from all over the world. I think IGN Pro League was one of the most professionally presented Starcraft 2 until now. However, the player pool was not what we call the best. To borrow IdrA's words "It was just a bunch of Americans". It looked great but I would watch DreamHack or MLG over IPL. Going back to your words, you stated that Koreans take all the prize which discourages people in America to compete. I can translate it as "Koreans are better than Americans (in SC2)". But the viewers want "the best players". If these are true, and we cut Koreans out of the tournament viewers will decrease until Americans become as good as Koreans. But wait, we are in a closed system so we don't know if Americans are better than Koreans unless they compete in Korea or European tournaments with Koreans. IMO, American players are inevitable to face Koreans. The problems you speak of now will happen sooner or later. I don't think your trying to be a bad guy. You want to have a long career in SC2 with many other pros in America like IdrA, InControl, Select and Cruncher. However we should all think about why MLG, DreamHack, FXO, Team Liquid, Naniwa, Thorzain and many others feel it is really important to be connected with Korean players. you dont get the point. it's not about keeping koreans away, it's about establishing regional events (which would if they don't live in that certain region) next to all the global ones. it's about what is the best way to help e-sports evolve. to create something inbetween ladder and NASL / GSL / MLG.
IPL?
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I also think pro players overstate their importance in the growth of e-sports. Many fans are just interested in seeing baller games. It doesn't matter who is playing, whether they are home-grown or not. The foreign players being good or bad doesn't matter too much to me as long as I can hear English commentary and casts.
Arguably casters, coaches, and panelists (eg State of the Game and many others) have far more influence. The fact that many of these individuals happen to be pro-players overshadows the importance of the format, and the concept of regular content aimed at the casual and amatuer gamer.
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Smaller regional tournaments are fine but when "region" means "non-Korean" (IPL 2, xeris's plan for NASL), I don't know man.
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On June 17 2011 11:49 drop271 wrote:I think there are some serious flaws in your argument tbh (and Catz' if that is his theory). The currency of esports is not prizemoney but fans, views and streams. Ultimately these generate revenue for the event of course, which has a very indirect impact on prizemoney. That 'currency' (ie fans) does not get 'exported' to Korea if a Korean wins. Therefore there is no loss to the foreign scene. The only way that there could be an impact is if you were to run an argument that lower (or less access to) prizemoney would mean lower quality foreign players (I know you don't specifically make such a claim). However, views/streams/fans make sponsors more achievable, teams more profitable and player income higher without ever relying on prize money. Koreans adding interest to our foreign tournaments DEFINITELY help this grow. Consequently, I can't see a negative impact from having Korean players. Hell, even if the lack of prizemoney did have an impact, the fact that they have come over and bossed people might inspire and drive foreign players far more than prizemoney ever could. Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 11:39 MidnightSun001 wrote:
1. CatZ is racist – FALSE - he doesn‘t agree with koreans competing in NASL, not because of their race, but locale. Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
Perhaps not racist, but most likely xenophobic. Edit: and being a foreigner yourself in no way prevents you from being racist. Or hypocritical. So I don't think much of your 'proof' sorry Nice argument though! A lot of thought put in
This.
The OP used economics to explain how this may negatively impact the foreigner scene is wrong. He overlooked the fact that WHO the prize money goes to doesn't affect the foreigner scene of ESPORTS. Fans are the currency of ESPORTS, so even if koreans grab 99% of all prize pools, if fans are able to witness a higher level of play from koreans, this will in no way adversely affect
the growth of the foreign scene. (Unless most foreigners are xenophobes)
On the other hand foreigner pros may earn less prize money than without koreans competing, but then the burden is on the foreign scene to bring its play to the next level.
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United States7483 Posts
Just for the record, as an economist, I just have to point this out.
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
What CatZ is talking about is the "(X-M)" part which stands for net exports. It is the diffrence of export versus import. When import is higher than export (money leaks) GDP is smaller. If consumers buy more foreign products than local ones, net export is negative. In other words, buying goods from a foreign country fuels money to that country's economy, while your country gets into shit financial situation if this phenomena is en masse.
This is misused in your example. That formula describes the GDP (or net income) of a closed economy, such as an individual nation. It does not describe so accurately this particular interaction: the prize money is not an export, and foreign ESPORTS is not a closed economy either, so Current Account theory doesn't really apply here. The basic concept you are trying to explain is still reasonable, (at least in the concept of trying to explain what Catz meant, I disagree with him and this idea for various reasons).
Rather, the prize money is more analogous to an unclaimed resource.
EDIT: This formula does not apply: it's like trying to use the Drake Equation to describe how many grains of sand there are on a beach.
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This argument is so meaningless.If you really want foreigners scene to grow,its not about the money,you guys should practice and reach the level to compete with the koreans.Its been quite long since sc2 came out but they didnt establish pro houses or practice regim to keep up with
the koreans,but like catz arguing is so silly.And also the money flowing in korea isnt that big unless you win a gsl or second placed.Actually there are alot of tournaments flying in west and foreigns pros are tooooo busy to coach and stream rather than dedicating to practice.Recently in the Tl Open 574 foreigners and one Korean Hawngsin played and he won the tournament,no surprise
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Very interesting perspective, but I think the OP's analysis is problematic in a number of ways.
On June 17 2011 11:39 MidnightSun001 wrote:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
What CatZ is talking about is the "(X-M)" part which stands for net exports. It is the diffrence of export versus import. When import is higher than export (money leaks) GDP is smaller. If consumers buy more foreign products than local ones, net export is negative. In other words, buying goods from a foreign country fuels money to that country's economy, while your country gets into shit financial situation if this phenomena is en masse.
It's certainly not true to say that negative net exports (ie net imports) are necessarily bad in the way that money is "siphoned out of the country" never to be seen again. A situation of net imports shows that imported goods are cheaper than domestically produced goods. If imported goods are cheaper, domestic consumers and business benefit from lower prices. Don't ignore the utility of the cheaper imports themselves.
Also, in times of economic boom, net imports can also relieve the domestic economy from inflation as well. So a situation of net imports itself doesn't not necessarily lead to a shit economy.
On June 17 2011 11:39 MidnightSun001 wrote:
Now imagine that different countries are different Starcraft e-sports scenes with a completely free trading market. The growing "western" and the "already-developed" korean scene. The western scene is developing and is starting to create some revenue, however the korean scene, which is already big, competes for the same money. Money is leaked from the western scene into the korean scene via prize pool (as korean players are better financed, received better conditions and training for years, while western players could only do this as a hobby). It is natural for the korean scene to dwarf the underdeveloped western scene. A korean winning a foreign tournament means more money for korean e-sports. If a korean stays and competes in North America, he is part of THAT scene. This is why CatZ does not oppose koreans STAYING to compete in NA tournaments. Stricly speaking the „already developed“ scene would suck funds out of the „developing“ one. This is why Koreans winning foreign tournaments can be POTENTIALLY bad for foreign eSports.
Granted, this is only pize pool money we‘re talking about. It is also unfair to say that all of the money will remain in one particular scene, afterall there is a fair trade going on between the two. However, you have to admit the point remains valid.
Edit: I agree that Koreans can bring interest and revenue to the foreign scene, no doubt they have a positive influence as well, but they can also harm development of foreign Starcraft 2 scene (not purposely of course!). Which approach - "protectionarist" or "free market" is better is a very difficult thing to say, I just wanted to explain the the logic behind protectionarism and CatZ's approach to the matter. I hope the video is enough to give you a view of what CatZ's argument actually was.
Koreans winning prize money does not itself harm the western Esports scene. What's important for Esports growth is that there's growing investment. As a number of others have said in this thread, this is driven by fan support and the marketing opportunities that arise from having a growing fan base. The only way Koreans winning prize money would harm the scene is if winnings were reinvested into the scene, such that Koreans would only reinvest in "their scene" at the expense of the foreign scene. It's very unlikely this reinvestment occurs - more likely winners keep their winnings for their personal consumption. But even if prize money was reinvested into the scene, the effect that would have on the growth of the scene is negligible because prize money would be a relatively small amount compared to total investment in the scene.
On the other hand, you could say that you'd rather see an Americans winning because an American winners are more marketable to western scenes than Korean winners. This is pretty weak though. It's safe to say the Koreans at MLG Columbus partly contributed to greater viewership and awareness of that tournament and that a Korean winning certainly didn't harm the future marketability of MLG.
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On June 17 2011 13:07 sparC wrote:
you dont get the point.
it's not about keeping koreans away, it's about establishing regional events (which would if they don't live in that certain region) next to all the global ones. it's about what is the best way to help e-sports evolve. to create something inbetween ladder and NASL / GSL / MLG.
This is 2011 dude.
Where is the POINT in having regional tournaments?
That's not evolution that's taking two steps backwards.
The "best way to help esports"? What a joke.
That's just a way to keep skilled players separated geographically and ensure that they don't have to practice harder or play better to place.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On June 17 2011 13:09 coL.CatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:46 Rekrul wrote:On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses". It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer". I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges. Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example. Anyways not trying to be the bad guy here, and im not gonna argue much on this thread, this is what I believe we need in order to see something like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/koreastarcraft.jpg/ outside of korea. Many top SC1 players had motivation year-round despite the fact that the most they could potentially win was a trip somewhere for WCG (just ask Artosis LOL). Just because of the fact that the gaming industry is ready for SC2 to be it's new big competitive game does not mean that the current top foreign players are simply 'entitled' to having a good shot at that prize money. I believe within 1-2 years we'll be seeing many new hungry talented faces competing for prizes in and outside of Korea so for you to say "we are trying hard to help e-sports blah blah" is extremely self serving. The gamers of course are needed to drive the industry, but the fact is that gamers are not playing for 'E-SPORTS' they are playing for themselves. For a foreign player to argue that it should be more segregated for the sake of 'E-sports' is pretty pathetic. One thing you are right about is that if the Koreans are so much better and will just rape everything if they are all allowed to compete in foreign tournaments via-online qualifiers etc. it will certainly hamper the growth in some ways (though might help in many ways you have not addressed). This is true and certainly some non-korean 'Champions' would certainly help 'E-SPORTS.' I believe that Koreans wiill dominate long term over-all but once some solid foreign team houses with good practice environments (with koreans) get established over the next couple of years it will certainly narrow the gap. But for you, as a player, if you want to help E-Sports it's probably better for you to try and get to the level of the Koreans rather than sit around making some mundane arguments which pretty much are saying 'we deserve an easier shot at the $' This wasn't a video I made in order to make people not invite koreans to their leagues, its simply my opinion on Home grown esports, and the growth of a community, not of me as a player, realistically, if I played a tournament today with the top non-koreans i'd still stand very little chance to win, but at least in my particular case, If I knew that my chances were improved, heck, lets narrow it down even more... If there was -just- a 3000$ prize-pool tournament in florida, for florida residents, I'd practice my ass off for it, because I know that my chances to win would be much bigger, then weather I win it or lose it, I will have become a better player, and if the circle continued, before you know it im devoting all of my time into practicing like I should practice, listening to less songs and singing less on my stream, and becoming a better player who could potentially compete with anyone in the world. THEN I go and play in tournaments with everyone else outside of florida, and if this had happened in every location, everyone will by then have become better players. So obviously im not saying organize a large tournament in florida so I can make more $, im just trying to show what I mean to say here, if there are SOME leagues that SOME players will believe they have a better shot at winning, they'll practice harder for them, become better players and help esports grow, idc if its me or whoever else. Right now, players outside of korea, have a shot at generation better revenue by 'getting out there' being more 'popular' 'raging' etc. Because this means they'll get more stream viewers and more Lessons and whatever else, very few players, like maybe KiWiKaKi will focus all of their efforts in gaming (because as many people know, he's wealthy already) as a result he's much better than most 'pros' who for the most part need to make a living off of the game somehow, not necessarily by playing the game 24/7 and being the best and going to a tournament and winning it. I think local leagues or even national, leagues, where you realistically can have a shot at the prize pool would drive A LOT more of these players to play the game more and become the best players they can become. Its false that fans won't support this leagues or not watch them if there's no Koreans in it, if that is true, its a small percentage, IPL season one proved that, with good production, it was driving more viewers than NASL was at the time (even though NASL had koreans competing in it). Im not scared to play Koreans either, I'd LOVE to measure myself against them more often even if I get rapeddddd. But if we continue on this path, you're looking at broodwar 2 in a couple years.
This is true but of course SC2 is going to continue to grow and expand to a level where the Koreans can not play in everything and people will have their shot. But as long as there is either a. a big level of interest for the tourney or b. big prizes the non-korean gamers are pretty screwed and that will never change unless they can get on the Korean's level.
I do not believe we are looking at broodwar2 if this 'path' is continued. SC2 has MBS LOL!
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This wasn't a video I made in order to make people not invite koreans to their leagues, its simply my opinion on Home grown esports, and the growth of a community, not of me as a player, realistically, if I played a tournament today with the top non-koreans i'd still stand very little chance to win, but at least in my particular case, If I knew that my chances were improved, heck, lets narrow it down even more... If there was -just- a 3000$ prize-pool tournament in florida, for florida residents, I'd practice my ass off for it, because I know that my chances to win would be much bigger
That's your problem.
What's stopping you from doing that NOW?
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
But yeah being a Korean gamer is very imba. If you're a non-korean gamer you have to balance your game playing with earning money and your real life.
If you're Korean you just sit around playing games all day eating 2 cent ramyun and becoming gosu.
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On June 17 2011 13:07 sparC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:59 cive wrote:On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses". It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer". I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges. Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example. Anyways not trying to be the bad guy here, and im not gonna argue much on this thread, this is what I believe we need in order to see something like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/koreastarcraft.jpg/ outside of korea. I see where you are coming from. However, I cannot agree with you because the viewers can view tournaments from all over the world. I think IGN Pro League was one of the most professionally presented Starcraft 2 until now. However, the player pool was not what we call the best. To borrow IdrA's words "It was just a bunch of Americans". It looked great but I would watch DreamHack or MLG over IPL. Going back to your words, you stated that Koreans take all the prize which discourages people in America to compete. I can translate it as "Koreans are better than Americans (in SC2)". But the viewers want "the best players". If these are true, and we cut Koreans out of the tournament viewers will decrease until Americans become as good as Koreans. But wait, we are in a closed system so we don't know if Americans are better than Koreans unless they compete in Korea or European tournaments with Koreans. IMO, American players are inevitable to face Koreans. The problems you speak of now will happen sooner or later. I don't think your trying to be a bad guy. You want to have a long career in SC2 with many other pros in America like IdrA, InControl, Select and Cruncher. However we should all think about why MLG, DreamHack, FXO, Team Liquid, Naniwa, Thorzain and many others feel it is really important to be connected with Korean players. you dont get the point. it's not about keeping koreans away, it's about establishing regional events (which would if they don't live in that certain region) next to all the global ones. it's about what is the best way to help e-sports evolve. to create something inbetween ladder and NASL / GSL / MLG.
You mean establishing regional events where Koreans are not allowed because they will win it, discouraging the regional players from competing.
There is a simple solution to this. Make more small tournaments Off-line, like GSL. The fact that they have to fly over to Korea and live there is the biggest issue for all non-Korean players to compete in GSL, right? So we do that, regional events, Americans only. Then what's going to happen after? Are we gonna ban Catz, Idra, Machine and all these really top tier American players from competing because they discourage the new upcoming stars by taking away a potential win?
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I think Starcraft is one of those things right now where if you want to be a top player, well known, and make the big bucks then you have to at some point participate and be successful in the Korean scene. Like what Naniwa and Thorzain are doing. They want to be the best, and they recognize that in order to do so, you have to play Koreans. Much like if you want to be a big time basketball player, you sort of have to play in the NBA. However with Starcraft, you can play Koreans without too much trouble in foreign tournaments such as TSL, MLG, and NASL and others. If you want to win tournaments and make lots of money without showing your skills to the best(Koreans), then I don't think you deserve to win or the money.
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EPT
