Disclaimer:The following article was meant to be a response to a comment on Reddit, but since I started laying out my thoughts the length of the response has become too large to be a mere reply and thus this humble article was born. I am no spokerperson for CatZ, this is purely my own endeavour. I will very likely not become more popular for writing ths article, but let‘s not make this about me either. If you are sensitive when it comes to subjects such as economics and politics, you should read this article at your own risk, as politics tend to get heated at times.
In 2011.04.09 a video has been posted on AskJoshy‘s YouTube channel of Paolo „CatZ“ Vizcarra opening his thoughts on home-grown eSports ( link - ). The views expressed in the video have been cited on many different occasions and used in agressive tone by some users in several TeamLiquid and Reddit threads of which the said statements spawned many. Since then Catz has gained many anti-fans. I believe, unjustly so.
In this article, I will aim to explain why CatZ said what he did, explain the rationale and reasoning behind his views and dispel some myths formed by false conclusions that were drawn from the interview video. Basically I‘m saying CatZ is not an asshole. Here‘s why...
There are a few myths about CatZ‘s statements on koreans participating in foreign leagues (the statement applies to broader scale than just NASL). I‘d like to dispell those and explain the reasoning of Catz‘s statements. Let‘s start with some misconceptions about CatZ‘s position on the matter, shall we?
1. CatZ is racist – FALSE - he doesn‘t agree with koreans competing in NASL, not because of their race, but locale. Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
Well, that one‘s easy, let‘s do another one. 2. CatZ wants to win more money and is afraid of korean competition – FALSE – this argument is of purely economical inclination, Paolo is saying that the prize money should stay and circulate in the foreign Starcraft scene – I will go into deeper detail on this in a second.
Before jumping to any of these previously mentioned false conclusions you should ask yourself how much do you know about money flow. The CatZ argument is purely economically inclined. There is no "boo-hoo they too strong and doesn't afraid of anything" here. When you're thinking of CatZ's statement's you should consider...
A simple economical formula that most students know:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
What CatZ is talking about is the "(X-M)" part which stands for net exports. It is the diffrence of export versus import. When import is higher than export (money leaks) GDP is smaller. If consumers buy more foreign products than local ones, net export is negative. In other words, buying goods from a foreign country fuels money to that country's economy, while your country gets into shit financial situation if this phenomena is en masse.
Here's a real world example, one that was given to me by a macroeconomics proffesor in my university, an example that is very relevant to me.
Lithuania joined the European Union. The small(er) business here were bought out by foreign competitors. The products that people buy are often products of foreign companies. This makes import high and export low. If this negative isn‘t compesated by other factos in the formula the national debt is piling up as net export remains negative. That‘s where This leads to huge economical tendencies that I won't go into about.
Now imagine that different countries are different Starcraft e-sports scenes with a completely free trading market. The growing "western" and the "already-developed" korean scene. The western scene is developing and is starting to create some revenue, however the korean scene, which is already big, competes for the same money. Money is leaked from the western scene into the korean scene via prize pool (as korean players are better financed, received better conditions and training for years, while western players could only do this as a hobby). It is natural for the korean scene to dwarf the underdeveloped western scene. A korean winning a foreign tournament means more money for korean e-sports. If a korean stays and competes in North America, he is part of THAT scene. This is why CatZ does not oppose koreans STAYING to compete in NA tournaments. Stricly speaking the „already developed“ scene would suck funds out of the „developing“ one. This is why Koreans winning foreign tournaments can be POTENTIALLY bad for foreign eSports.
Granted, this is only pize pool money we‘re talking about. It is also unfair to say that all of the money will remain in one particular scene, afterall there is a fair trade going on between the two. However, you have to admit the point remains valid.
CatZ‘s argument is purely economical and I want you to understand this perspective.
This short article was not written to change your opinion, it does not instrigate any hostilities toward any nation whatsoever. In the end, take this opinion for what it is – a way to look at the subject. I do not expect for you to agree with the reasoning, nor to change it, but I want you to understand that there is perfectly reasonable rationale behind Catz‘s argument. Everyone has their own opinion and is free to (respectfully) disagree, I hope that this article at least helped to explain the CatZ‘s side of the argument.
Edit: I agree that Koreans can bring interest and revenue to the foreign scene, no doubt they have a positive influence as well, but they can also harm development of foreign Starcraft 2 scene (not purposely of course!). Which approach - "protectionarist" or "free market" is better is a very difficult thing to say, I just wanted to explain the the logic behind protectionarism and CatZ's approach to the matter. I hope the video is enough to give you a view of what CatZ's argument actually was.
Here's what CatZ had to say in the comments:
This wasn't a video I made in order to make people not invite koreans to their leagues, its simply my opinion on Home grown esports, and the growth of a community, not of me as a player, realistically, if I played a tournament today with the top non-koreans i'd still stand very little chance to win, but at least in my particular case, If I knew that my chances were improved, heck, lets narrow it down even more... If there was -just- a 3000$ prize-pool tournament in florida, for florida residents, I'd practice my ass off for it, because I know that my chances to win would be much bigger, then weather I win it or lose it, I will have become a better player, and if the circle continued, before you know it im devoting all of my time into practicing like I should practice, listening to less songs and singing less on my stream, and becoming a better player who could potentially compete with anyone in the world. THEN I go and play in tournaments with everyone else outside of florida, and if this had happened in every location, everyone will by then have become better players. So obviously im not saying organize a large tournament in florida so I can make more $, im just trying to show what I mean to say here, if there are SOME leagues that SOME players will believe they have a better shot at winning, they'll practice harder for them, become better players and help esports grow, idc if its me or whoever else. Right now, players outside of korea, have a shot at generation better revenue by 'getting out there' being more 'popular' 'raging' etc. Because this means they'll get more stream viewers and more Lessons and whatever else, very few players, like maybe KiWiKaKi will focus all of their efforts in gaming (because as many people know, he's wealthy already) as a result he's much better than most 'pros' who for the most part need to make a living off of the game somehow, not necessarily by playing the game 24/7 and being the best and going to a tournament and winning it.
I think local leagues or even national, leagues, where you realistically can have a shot at the prize pool would drive A LOT more of these players to play the game more and become the best players they can become. Its false that fans won't support this leagues or not watch them if there's no Koreans in it, if that is true, its a small percentage, IPL season one proved that, with good production, it was driving more viewers than NASL was at the time (even though NASL had koreans competing in it).
Im not scared to play Koreans either, I'd LOVE to measure myself against them more often even if I get rapeddddd. But if we continue on this path, you're looking at broodwar 2 in a couple years.
Very interesting perspective but your youtube link is broken which will cause lots of silly posts from people that dont know whats going on until its fixed
Good explanation. The one question that I would bring up is whether Koreans coming to the scene doesn't actually benefit the scene by making the tournament more legitimate and therefore more appealing to fans or potentially sponsors? I definitely think some people would take that point of view.
I think there are some serious flaws in your argument tbh (and Catz' if that is his theory).
The currency of esports is not prizemoney but fans, views and streams. Ultimately these generate revenue for the event of course, which has a very indirect impact on prizemoney.
That 'currency' (ie fans) does not get 'exported' to Korea if a Korean wins. Therefore there is no loss to the foreign scene.
The only way that there could be an impact is if you were to run an argument that lower (or less access to) prizemoney would mean lower quality foreign players (I know you don't specifically make such a claim). However, views/streams/fans make sponsors more achievable, teams more profitable and player income higher without ever relying on prize money. Koreans adding interest to our foreign tournaments DEFINITELY help this grow. Consequently, I can't see a negative impact from having Korean players. Hell, even if the lack of prizemoney did have an impact, the fact that they have come over and bossed people might inspire and drive foreign players far more than prizemoney ever could.
On June 17 2011 11:39 MidnightSun001 wrote: 1. CatZ is racist – FALSE - he doesn‘t agree with koreans competing in NASL, not because of their race, but locale. Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
Perhaps not racist, but most likely xenophobic. Edit: and being a foreigner yourself in no way prevents you from being racist. Or hypocritical. So I don't think much of your 'proof' sorry
Nice argument though! A lot of thought put in
And further edit: Catz seems like a good guy who genuinely cares about Esports, not his personal wealth. I'm not bagging him, just the argument he put forward
The problem with this is that the comparison between progamers and countries is silly. While his argument may be financially motivated, it isn't economically motivated. It has nothing to do with trade or commerce. Prize money doesn't benefit national esporta scenes nearly as much as it does progamers. I'm not disagreeing with the argument (or agreeing with it), I'm simply disagreeing with your analysis of it.
You did an amazing job of explaining Catz argument without explicitly stating what his argument was. I may be one the few that doesn't know about this controversy. Can you please outline what the two opposing positions are.
When you say
I‘d like to dispell those and explain the reasoning of Catz‘s statements. Let‘s start with some misconceptions about CatZ‘s position on the matter, shall we?
What exactly did he say?
As for your thinking, I would argue that by increasing competition in foreign tournaments, Koreans help to advertise the skill level of SC2. They are a mjor draw card to any tournament and pull large crowds. Thus increasing the demand for tournaments, which benefits everyone.
Your argument seems to revolve around Koreans dominating everything, in a systematic way. I highly doubt this will become a structured regular thing. Competition is a good thing, protectionism and "trade barriers" harm the market.
I agree with your synopsis. I think Catz just means to say that the GSL, as in the GLOBAL Starcraft II League, should be the international affair. At least that's what I take from it.
On June 17 2011 11:52 deerpark87 wrote: I don't understand why you want to bring up this topic again. I rather you explain Catz/Ret's MLG drama. At-least that is more entertaining.
we like beating a dead horse? anyways, i like having koreans in major tournaments, make them more legit and more HYPE!
On June 17 2011 11:51 Datum wrote: The problem with this is that the comparison between progamers and countries is silly. While his argument may be financially motivated, it isn't economically motivated. It has nothing to do with trade or commerce. Prize money doesn't benefit national esporta scenes nearly as much as it does progamers. I'm not disagreeing with the argument (or agreeing with it), I'm simply disagreeing with your analysis of it.
Yes, that is correct. The argument misconceives the economics of this whole thing. Esports is a global phenomena and nationhood is largely irrelevant.
Another thing: people don't care about the nationality of players as much as some people think.
Doesn't do anything to dispel what he has said in chats, in games, on streams, in interviews, just sounds like a lot of lame excuses being made to make himself look better after the hate he's gotten.
As long as the prize distribution at foreign tournaments such as the NASL and MLG remains so top-heavy, this position is fundamentally flawed.
When the winner is taking home roughly half the prize pool, it doesn't matter whether that winner is Korean, or American, or whatever.
Until prize pools rise to the point where professional players can be in the middle of the pack skill-wise and still make a living off of their earnings, we don't need to worry about such matters.
If anything, having more Koreans participate will speed up the process of having higher prize pools since they draw more viewers, and more viewers equals more money from sponsors.
Huge reason why I enjoyed Columbus so much was the koreans vs foreigners. Haha especially IdrA vs the koreans. I also think the best tournaments in the world have been where both foreigners and koreans are involved. GSL, Dreamhack, Nasl, Columbus etc... I'm not sure how good the IPL was, but if it was good and people enjoyed it, that would be a good counter argument though.
The thing is, from a conscientious viewpoint, whomever this Cat person is is stating that eSports is only about improving from a self-economic perspective, You remonstrate otherwise, but usually, if a sport is non-amateur, the player/team wants to become the very best in the world. Soccer is an example. No team would ever consider money first compared to winning say the world cup and proving to the world that they are the best team. Granted, SC II isn't about international pride and there is the WCG to prove that sort of dominance, but his viewpoint makes me question is own pride and goals if he's so cantankerous against Koreans in the foreign scene. In other words, just be like Flash and play everyone you face without a thought. If you lose, only a better reason for you to improve.
so wait, how does a korean winning prize money make it so that that money circulates in the korean scene and not in the foreign scene? the player doesn't put the money back into the tournaments, but spends it on necessities like food/clothing...
basically I see this as catz arguing that all non north americans should be excluded from the NASL to promote the north american scene which is a backwards argument in itself. Without the highest level of competition it's gonna produce much less revenue, and much less prize money.
The video was posted back in April, why are you bringing this up now. This is an irrelevant topic. It what happens when technology moves forward. LANs are awesome but I bet even pros don't mind not leaving home to play in big matches.
Your whole second point is thrown out the window by what he says at around the 30/40 second mark.
On June 17 2011 11:47 DirtYLOu wrote: Who cares what Catz think anyway?
This if I wanted Catz opinion on something I'll ask him.
Catz is definitely one of the more outspoken pros. Probably the most outspoken. But just like the first comment in the youtube video: "For esport to grow in the west we need good matches, not throwing money on mediocre players."
Woa, someone who understands economics on TL, I figured starcraft fans were mostly math majors.
I agree with catz to an extent, certain events should be a global mixture to truly bring the best, and force competition between the two worlds of esports, if this didn't exist then foreigners would never catch up and that phrase right there ^ "the two worlds of esports" will stay around forever.
On June 17 2011 12:06 rotegirte wrote: Just a thought: Nada vs Morrow attracts 17k viewers right now. Pretty good in my book
viewership has nothing to do with this thread
As already outlined in following post:
On June 17 2011 11:49 drop271 wrote: I think there are some serious flaws in your argument tbh (and Catz' if that is his theory).
The currency of esports is not prizemoney but fans, views and streams. Ultimately these generate revenue for the event of course, which has a very indirect impact on prizemoney.
That 'currency' (ie fans) does not get 'exported' to Korea if a Korean wins. Therefore there is no loss to the foreign scene.
The only way that there could be an impact is if you were to run an argument that lower (or less access to) prizemoney would mean lower quality foreign players (I know you don't specifically make such a claim). However, views/streams/fans make sponsors more achievable, teams more profitable and player income higher without ever relying on prize money. Koreans adding interest to our foreign tournaments DEFINITELY help this grow. Consequently, I can't see a negative impact from having Korean players. Hell, even if the lack of prizemoney did have an impact, the fact that they have come over and bossed people might inspire and drive foreign players far more than prizemoney ever could.
On June 17 2011 11:39 MidnightSun001 wrote: 1. CatZ is racist – FALSE - he doesn‘t agree with koreans competing in NASL, not because of their race, but locale. Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
The problem here is that we have to draw a contrast between players as labor and players as capital. The product is NASL, IPL, MLG, GSL: content in general. The players provide the labor - regardless of their nationality.
On June 17 2011 12:07 Soluhwin wrote: Woa, someone who understands economics on TL, I figured starcraft fans were mostly math majors.
I agree with catz to an extent, certain events should be a global mixture to truly bring the best, and force competition between the two worlds of esports, if this didn't exist then foreigners would never catch up and that phrase right there ^ "the two worlds of esports" will stay around forever.
He doesn't really understand economics. The concepts are not applicable at all.
Things are clear. SC2 is the game which will spread E-sport scene out of caves.Just a question of time.
Why koreans are still dominating the scene, coz they spend more money to train progamers before the rest of the world from a long time.The same causes will produce the sames effects.
From less than a year with this game there so much money injected from everywhere, so if NASL don't allow best players to come, it can surely help "local" champions to groth and reveal, but in a long term future NASL have to let best players coming in, from every country.
Americans need to play vs best foreigners, specially koreans, for a very high level NASL, and it'll be a huge buisness, more than if you just invite 2 europeans and koreans.
This is pretty silly. You are clearly trying to force fit some very basic economic concepts to explain Catz's argument. The leakage of prize money to the Koreans does not go to develop the Korean scene. Similarly, the prize money to US winners does not go towards esports dollars at all. In fact, I would say that having koreans in the tounament makes it infinitely more watchable.
Its clear that Catz is afraid of competition and just wants the easy dollars. Maybe practice harder instead of waking up late or stealing other people's girlfriends instead?
lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
On June 17 2011 12:34 namedplayer wrote: so what is his point?
'Don't let Koreans compete in western scene because White dudez can't beat Koreans?'
why don't he just practice harder and try to beat Koreans? hm... maybe he just doesn't wanna practice harder.
Ideally in my fantasy would there would be plenty of tournaments as there are now where koreans can be measured against non-koreans, and provided the scene has some time to breathe and grow, I think you'd get to see a lot more interesting matches.
Not sure how this isn't a very straight forward issue -
If you want access to korean sc2 winnings, you need to live in korea. If you want access to western sc2 winnings, you can live anywhere in the world.
When you have litterally the very best in the world flying around the world to scoup up a 5k prize from your 'local' turny, it's going to feel like a kick in the balls. And it makes it difficult for the scene to support a larger wester player base. Less prize money to westerns, and more importantly less star power for western player to pick up sponsor money.
Is it good or bad for the western sc2 scene? Prob bad short term, but by forcing western players to play at top korean level it maybe good long term.
South Korean events are built longer, generally for tv. There have no big money prizes awarded where someone could fly into korea, play for a weekend/week and go home. Dispite some fairly serious effort by GSL to make it easier to people to move to korea -you don't fly in for an event like golf, tennis, formula one, or any other international sport- you have to live there.
You talk briefly about motivation to practice/improve. Do you think prize money is a solution, or would you prefer to see pro-houses and better links between practice partners?
(You've still got Root Gaming in your sig btw mate)
if bringing koreans brings in the ratings, then the tournaments should keep inviting the koreans so that they're able to generate more viewers.
most people don't care about watching 5th rate americans play each other. there's a reason why mlg's ratings were this high recently. it's because people want to watch the koreans go against the best foreigners like idra. in comparison, very few people give a damn about watching something like drewbie vs fenix.
Not to be too much of an econ geek, but it's a mistake to use a GDP accounting identity as an explanation for anything causal. What you're doing is basically saying that a change in one of the components of the right side of the GDP accounting identity (Y = C+I+G+X-IM) will necessarily cause an equal change in the left side of it. But that need not be the case at all as it could just as well cause an opposite change in one of the other components in the right side of the equation. So, for example, we might expect that higher imports enable higher domestic demand and exports which would be just as consistent with the identity as the theory that higher imports cause a reduction in GDP.
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
I don't understand how that makes sense. At all. How is there less and less money being involved? Western Tournaments are offering more and more RIDICULOUS sums of money for top finishers in their tournaments. In fact sponsors are dishing out more cash to tournaments WITH Korean players in them because it draws in more viewers. Yeah there's less money for you if there's a lower chance for you to place, but the tournament organizations and tournament sponsors themselves get more money regardless of who wins, which only ENCOURAGES more and more tournaments. And how do Koreans have all of a sudden an unfair advantage? They just practice more. Do they have magical infrastructure that makes babies with faster mouse fingers? Should we bar Swedish players since they're doing so well too?
And dude. I'm sorry for speaking out of place, but I think it makes professional gamers look weak when you whine about stronger competition from Koreans. They're more than motivated to take it to the Koreans. A lot of them tweet about how EXCITED they are when they get to face Koreans. Liquid Tyler was bragging about how he wanted to face MC and BEAT him.
no actually i'm not sorry. i'm not sorry at all. THEY'RE WORKING THEIR ASSES OFF TO PLAY AS WELL AS THEY CAN AND BEAT THEM. AND THEY WILL.
If this is hurting your personal income, that sucks, but speak for yourself, not for your colleagues.
i kinda disagree, sure, the economical arguement was presented too, but the main idea behind it was still : how do we bring e-sports to the "west" or make it more popular outside korea. it's not only about the prizepool in that sense, it's about makeing more people join e-sports.
for the sake of this argument, let's pretend sc2 wouldn't be there, and we would talk about BW. now, if there would be high-prize-pool tournaments, that would attract koreans to take part and win it. the result would be, that almost noone who plays BW more as a hobby would ever even consider to practice more with the goal in mind to play in such a tournament to win it (maybe to get to play one of the korean stars). everyone would know, they could never ever win an event, where Flash, Jaedong and the likes would be playing and thus the scene would never really evolve and reach "the next level".
what catz is saying is: make it more regional, so the chances for potential pros become more realistic or atleast thinkable rather than merely a dream. and that's not only talking about big events like NASL. if smaller events for smaller regions like citys would be established, then for the next bigger kind of region, let's say statewide and so on. that would motivate and inspire players to actually commit to e-sports as a real option. and that what is ment when we talk about "growing e-sport and making it more popular".
now back to sc2, right now it is possible for "non-koreans" to beat anyone in a bo3/bo5. but that doesn't change the fact that huge names like MC and MMA right now don't have any value or impact (obviously the same goes for the top notch "non-korean" players). how many of you TL users would seriously practice for a huge tournament for months to qualify and ultimately with the goal to win the entire thing? the mere appearence of all those high-lvl players make it seem impossible to justify the potential time spend on said practice.
for e-sports to grow in the west, you have to encourage more players to take part in it. this alone would make e-sports grow, however over very long period of time. but it's an important step nontheless, creating regional events help out a lot and provide a less scary player/team-pool. then it would be possible to "slowly progress" and work your way up to the top, with small but noticeable and encouraging rewards. right know it still somewhat seems like there is this giant leap from zero to hero you have to make in order "to be up there where the real $ is".
Koreans are mostly better than non-Koreans. e.g. IEM was a global tournament and the invited Koreans were Ace, Moon and Squirtle who placed 1st, 2nd and 3rd respectively. e.g. MLG was the same story with MMA, LosirA and MC.
There will only be repeats in the future. Non-Koreans will receive less prize money since the Koreans will take it so they won't be able to live off progaming and this deters e-sports from growing in the West. Semi-professionals will give up because they'll be knocked out by Koreans. Full-time professionals won't be able to support themselves financially meaning less time to play and a reduced probability of non-Koreans winning versus Koreans.
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
Many top SC1 players had motivation year-round despite the fact that the most they could potentially win was a trip somewhere for WCG (just ask Artosis LOL).
Just because of the fact that the gaming industry is ready for SC2 to be it's new big competitive game does not mean that the current top foreign players are simply 'entitled' to having a good shot at that prize money. I believe within 1-2 years we'll be seeing many new hungry talented faces competing for prizes in and outside of Korea so for you to say "we are trying hard to help e-sports blah blah" is extremely self serving. The gamers of course are needed to drive the industry, but the fact is that gamers are not playing for 'E-SPORTS' they are playing for themselves.
For a foreign player to argue that it should be more segregated for the sake of 'E-sports' is pretty pathetic. One thing you are right about is that if the Koreans are so much better and will just rape everything if they are all allowed to compete in foreign tournaments via-online qualifiers etc. it will certainly hamper the growth in some ways (though might help in many ways you have not addressed). This is true and certainly some non-korean 'Champions' would certainly help 'E-SPORTS.' I believe that Koreans wiill dominate long term over-all but once some solid foreign team houses with good practice environments (with koreans) get established over the next couple of years it will certainly narrow the gap.
But for you, as a player, if you want to help E-Sports it's probably better for you to try and get to the level of the Koreans rather than sit around making some mundane arguments which pretty much are saying 'we deserve an easier shot at the $'
On June 17 2011 12:34 namedplayer wrote: so what is his point?
'Don't let Koreans compete in western scene because White dudez can't beat Koreans?'
why don't he just practice harder and try to beat Koreans? hm... maybe he just doesn't wanna practice harder.
Ideally in my fantasy would there would be plenty of tournaments as there are now where koreans can be measured against non-koreans, and provided the scene has some time to breathe and grow, I think you'd get to see a lot more interesting matches.
Like I mentioned earlier, this will only be a problem if the "flow of money" become systemic and structured. The number of tournaments around is huge, just look at the monthly wrap up if you don't believe this. If being the best is not your motivation for playing, then perhaps this is not what you should be doing.
The number of tournaments that have major Korean players is relatively small, and they increase the demand for tournaments in general. I don't see how this is a bad thing.
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
Many top SC1 players had motivation year-round despite the fact that the most they could potentially win was a trip somewhere for WCG (just ask Artosis LOL).+ Show Spoiler +
Just because of the fact that the gaming industry is ready for SC2 to be it's new big competitive game does not mean that the current top foreign players are simply 'entitled' to having a good shot at that prize money. I believe within 1-2 years we'll be seeing many new hungry talented faces competing for prizes in and outside of Korea so for you to say "we are trying hard to help e-sports blah blah" is extremely self serving. The gamers of course are needed to drive the industry, but the fact is that gamers are not playing for 'E-SPORTS' they are playing for themselves.
For a foreign player to argue that it should be more segregated for the sake of 'E-sports' is pretty pathetic. One thing you are right about is that if the Koreans are so much better and will just rape everything if they are all allowed to compete in foreign tournaments via-online qualifiers etc. it will certainly hamper the growth in some ways (though might help in many ways you have not addressed). This is true and certainly some non-korean 'Champions' would certainly help 'E-SPORTS.' I believe that Koreans wiill dominate long term over-all but once some solid foreign team houses with good practice environments (with koreans) get established over the next couple of years it will certainly narrow the gap.
But for you, as a player, if you want to help E-Sports it's probably better for you to try and get to the level of the Koreans rather than sit around making some mundane arguments which pretty much are saying 'we deserve an easier shot at the $'
On June 17 2011 12:40 Galleon.frigate wrote: Not sure how this isn't a very straight forward issue -
If you want access to korean sc2 winnings, you need to live in korea. If you want access to western sc2 winnings, you can live anywhere in the world.
When you have litterally the very best in the world flying around the world to scoup up a 5k prize from your 'local' turny, it's going to feel like a kick in the balls. And it makes it difficult for the scene to support a larger wester player base. Less prize money to westerns, and more importantly less star power for western player to pick up sponsor money.
Is it good or bad for the western sc2 scene? Prob bad short term, but by forcing western players to play at top korean level it maybe good long term.
South Korean events are built longer, generally for tv. There have no big money prizes awarded where someone could fly into korea, play for a weekend/week and go home. Dispite some fairly serious effort by GSL to make it easier to people to move to korea -you don't fly in for an event like golf, tennis, formula one, or any other international sport- you have to live there.
I agree with everything you said, except on the long-term brood war has proven what's gonna happen it won't be better for e sports outside of Korea, period, sure you can still turn on your computer and watch the korean tournaments and the best players in the world in a couple of years from now, but if you wanna go watch those events live, you'll have to fly over. There's a reason blizzard put starcraft logos in Air Korea planes and not American Airlines, why blizzard helped make the GSL in korea and not somewhere else, its strictly financial in this cases, the scene there is already built, e-sports are widely accepted and so to sell their new game and generate more revenue, they chose to go to the already-stablished country, the 'home' of esports, or why Liquid moved to korea in the first place, the scene is much bigger and so is the support and acceptance, its just better atm, its a much more player-friendly environment systems and practice houses and coaches are in place, its better to move to korea if you want to improve as a player, there's no doubt about that. Here in the west its just getting started, there are very few houses, with very few players, none with a coach, and likely none with practice / eating schedules, its MUCH harder to start doing something like this here, because we (esports) are just starting (hopefully) to grow here.
Yeah of course he's not racist, he's Peruvian! Wait, what?
When top pros express this sentiment, it may be worrisome, but if I played at catz's level as a pro, I probably wouldn't want top players in tournaments either. Most top players haven't really said much about this, and those that have want to bring on the competition. Hmm who to listen to? Cloud? Or thorzain?
On June 17 2011 11:58 sc2olorin wrote: As long as the prize distribution at foreign tournaments such as the NASL and MLG remains so top-heavy, this position is fundamentally flawed.
When the winner is taking home roughly half the prize pool, it doesn't matter whether that winner is Korean, or American, or whatever.
Until prize pools rise to the point where professional players can be in the middle of the pack skill-wise and still make a living off of their earnings, we don't need to worry about such matters.
If anything, having more Koreans participate will speed up the process of having higher prize pools since they draw more viewers, and more viewers equals more money from sponsors.
The top heavy prize distribution is completely stupid and like nobody learned anything from the past. Yes let's allow a few people ALL of the money in gaming! Putting are putting like over a million into tournament winnings yet how much is into teams and salaries? Scene is fucked. Again.
how about foreign pros first focus on improving before they focus on xenophobic protectionist economic measures for the sake of esports?
whether or not koreans are hurting esports (they don't),
as a professional foreign gamer for FUCKS sake, why isn't your #1 concern about improving? stop worrying about koreans' effect of western esports and worry about yourself. no wonder you guys are always behind the bell curve.
catz thinks it's great to be a professional gamer in korea? does he know ANYTHING? you work over 8 hours a day training for NO safety net, NO guarantee of money, and have to give up EVERYTHING. The only way korean starcraft 2 players make money are from the prize money from tournaments, and there's very few players getting paid consistently.
The code S players are guaranteed $1500 a month. Let me know when $1500 is enough to sustain a decent living for anyone in a 1st world country . Anyone below that line is essentially getting nothing. The reason they train so hard is because they want to make it and they devote their lives to it. For every successful story of someone making it big like Nestea, there's 50 more players basically living off nothing.
Does Catz also not understand that having a player pool consisting only a pool of NA players would probably contribute to a prize pool of like $5000 compared to $50000?
lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
I see where you are coming from. However, I cannot agree with you because the viewers can view tournaments from all over the world.
I think IGN Pro League was one of the most professionally presented Starcraft 2 until now. However, the player pool was not what we call the best. To borrow IdrA's words "It was just a bunch of Americans". It looked great but I would watch DreamHack or MLG over IPL.
Going back to your words, you stated that Koreans take all the prize which discourages people in America to compete. I can translate it as "Koreans are better than Americans (in SC2)". But the viewers want "the best players". If these are true, and we cut Koreans out of the tournament viewers will decrease until Americans become as good as Koreans. But wait, we are in a closed system so we don't know if Americans are better than Koreans unless they compete in Korea or European tournaments with Koreans. IMO, American players are inevitable to face Koreans. The problems you speak of now will happen sooner or later.
I don't think your trying to be a bad guy. You want to have a long career in SC2 with many other pros in America like IdrA, InControl, Select and Cruncher. However we should all think about why MLG, DreamHack, FXO, Team Liquid, Naniwa, Thorzain and many others feel it is really important to be connected with Korean players.
I have one thing to say to this whole thing, if you want to continue to live with the benefits of being a progamer, then improve your skill and beat the koreans. Their 'infrastructure' basically ammounts to a house with 8 players, a coach and a manager, implying that's some kind of massive insurmountable barrier which seperates them from us is just silly. If people have narrowed that down as the thing which makes them better, then go practice in your team house. Train like them, think like them, live like them and beat them.
Untill then this whole argument is like saying "Well, Canada just trained harder for the olympics this year, It's kind of unfair and we shouldn't invite them next time".
As for the whole idea of money all getting sucked into Korea, I believe previous posts have already addressed that. The majority of the money comes from viewers, streams, merch etc not prize money.
Now.. this might then lead to a situation where less people want to become progamers, because they think there is simply no chance of making a living off of it. In which case all these events will have only Korean players. You then might ask what the point of American leagues are then? But the answer is obviously so the fans can watch these players fight it out live.
You then might say.. well.. will people keep supporting the game if they don't have a 'local' hero to cheer for and support? And that's really the bulk of the argument, if it came down to this scenario would it just return to like it was in SC1 but with competitions being held all over the world but still being won by all koreans? and is that a bad thing?
So really, it's the arguement of: Watching people player who you can relate to but have slightly lower skill Vs. Watching all Koreans play who you can't really relate to, but the games are super high level.
Personally i'm on the fence, but i'm a spectator.. not a progamer.
I just saw the interview. It seems clear to me, without discussing the merits of his argument, that CatZ was neither being racist nor "chickening out."
i think some of you guys are bashing catz for the wrong reasons. this is what i take away from catz's thoughts:
he just wants to see the foreign e-sports scene to become more fully developed first in their respective regions. and by that i mean for e-sports to eventually become a legitimate competition in the eyes of a John Smith who would otherwise hear the word "e-sports" and go "wtf is that?".
let's take professional soccer or basketball or any other major sport as an example. each country has their own developed leagues for such sports. and within each of those leagues are their own teams who compete amongst each other. and once in a while there are prestigious global events where these leagues compete against one another for a World Title (example: Olympics, etc.)
i think catz just means that he would like to see the foregin e-sport scenes to develop nicely on their own and catch up tp the developed Korean scene before they try to compete together. that's not to say that if a Korean player wanted to come to MLG they can't...they most certainly are welcome to come over to compete. however, it'd be better for the foreign scene if these players decided they wanted to compete by living in the foreign scene. (example: Yao Ming of the NBA)
that's just my take on CatZ's ideas. im not agreeing or disagreeing with him, i just feel like people are bashing his thoughts for no reason or bashing him because they are misunderstanding the points being made.
On June 17 2011 11:58 sc2olorin wrote: As long as the prize distribution at foreign tournaments such as the NASL and MLG remains so top-heavy, this position is fundamentally flawed.
When the winner is taking home roughly half the prize pool, it doesn't matter whether that winner is Korean, or American, or whatever.
Until prize pools rise to the point where professional players can be in the middle of the pack skill-wise and still make a living off of their earnings, we don't need to worry about such matters.
If anything, having more Koreans participate will speed up the process of having higher prize pools since they draw more viewers, and more viewers equals more money from sponsors.
The top heavy prize distribution is completely stupid and like nobody learned anything from the past. Yes let's allow a few people ALL of the money in gaming! Putting are putting like over a million into tournament winnings yet how much is into teams and salaries? Scene is fucked. Again.
Agree. Players should not need to rely on prize winnings as their main motivation for playing. They should be paid enough by their teams so that winning a large tournament every now and then is only a bonus to being a pro-gamer.
However, with the top-heavy prize distribution model, teams cannot afford to pay their players a high enough salary, since most teams won't get a dime of prize money from a large event.
My contention is that the drastic increase in viewership stemming from inviting Koreans will raise the viewer count, thereby increasing sponsorship interest and money, thereby increasing the total prize pool.
Combine that with an improved prize distribution model, which critically will allow teams to be able to send their players to an event and actually make a profit instead of losing money, and eventually we should see the ESPORTS scene in North America flourish.
I'm an econ major, but it dosen't take someone with any of knowledge to know that the following equation:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
this has nothing to do with ANYTHING esports related.. or is extremely trivial... the money that is won in tournaments is probably not reinvested within in esports.. yea maybe it'll effect the overall GDP of the united states (lol) which is pretty meaningless, but it doesn't affect the "circulation" of money within esports.. I doubt any foreigner whose won e-sports reinvested the prize money on something esports related
Secondly, if you want to use economics as an argument then you can use the example of "smaller less efficient firms (foreigners) being subsidized/helped (team houses, overseas training) to become more efficient to then be able to compete... these subsidies may be a short term loss but will be beneficial in the long run as firms (players) become more efficient (better) and are able to compete with other firms (koreans).
tl;dr - tough it out, in the long run it'll all be good.
On June 17 2011 13:04 duckducktiM wrote: I'm an econ major, but it dosen't take someone with any of knowledge to know that following equation:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
this has nothing to do with ANYTHING esports related.. or is extremely trivial... the money that is won in tournaments is probably not reinvested within in esports.. yea maybe it'll effect the overall GDP of the united states (lol) which is pretty meaningless, but it doesn't affect the "circulation" of money within esports.. I doubt any foreigner whose won e-sports reinvested the prize money on something esports related
Secondly, if you want to use economics as an argument then you can use the example of "smaller less efficient firms (foreigners) being subsidized/helped (team houses, overseas training) to become more efficient to then be able to compete... these subsidies may be a short term lose but well be beneficial in the long run as firms (players) become more efficient (better) and are able to compete with other firms (koreans).
tl;dr - tough it out, in the long run it'll all be good.
Not to mention that all the Koreans joining foreign teams means that there's even less of a distinction now than ever before, and some of that "korean won" prize money is going back to foreign teams. Even if I don't really agree with that line of thinking...
On June 17 2011 12:50 coL.CatZ wrote: I agree with everything you said, except on the long-term brood war has proven what's gonna happen it won't be better for e sports outside of Korea, period, sure you can still turn on your computer and watch the korean tournaments and the best players in the world in a couple of years from now, but if you wanna go watch those events live, you'll have to fly over. There's a reason blizzard put starcraft logos in Air Korea planes and not American Airlines, why blizzard helped make the GSL in korea and not somewhere else, its strictly financial in this cases, the scene there is already built, e-sports are widely accepted and so to sell their new game and generate more revenue, they chose to go to the already-stablished country, the 'home' of esports, or why Liquid moved to korea in the first place, the scene is much bigger and so is the support and acceptance, its just better atm, its a much more player-friendly environment systems and practice houses and coaches are in place, its better to move to korea if you want to improve as a player, there's no doubt about that. Here in the west its just getting started, there are very few houses, with very few players, none with a coach, and likely none with practice / eating schedules, its MUCH harder to start doing something like this here, because we (esports) are just starting (hopefully) to grow here.
...Seriously? The SC2 eSports scene has had FUCKING huge growth in ONE year. Why are you complaining that it's not on TV, that you're not seeing ads in planes when the western esports market as a whole has done what was UNTHINKABLE two years ago.
So that's it huh? Since you don't have you're "support" or whatever all the players outside of Korea are going to die out and that'll be that? That's just... gah.
Liquid didn't move to Korea to get better. They already WERE FUCKING AWESOME and they went their to TAKE IT to the KOREANS. They did exactly the opposite of what you want and decided to TAKE UP THE CHALLENGE and FIGHT the MOST skilled professional starcraft2 players in the world. Coaches, pro houses and all that stupid nonsense don't make the players, they just help them.
You can make excuses all you want, but being a starcraft2 player comes down to HARD WORK and players like IdrA can attest to that with their ridiculous practice schedules.
lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
I see where you are coming from. However, I cannot agree with you because the viewers can view tournaments from all over the world.
I think IGN Pro League was one of the most professionally presented Starcraft 2 until now. However, the player pool was not what we call the best. To borrow IdrA's words "It was just a bunch of Americans". It looked great but I would watch DreamHack or MLG over IPL.
Going back to your words, you stated that Koreans take all the prize which discourages people in America to compete. I can translate it as "Koreans are better than Americans (in SC2)". But the viewers want "the best players". If these are true, and we cut Koreans out of the tournament viewers will decrease until Americans become as good as Koreans. But wait, we are in a closed system so we don't know if Americans are better than Koreans unless they compete in Korea or European tournaments with Koreans. IMO, American players are inevitable to face Koreans. The problems you speak of now will happen sooner or later.
I don't think your trying to be a bad guy. You want to have a long career in SC2 with many other pros in America like IdrA, InControl, Select and Cruncher. However we should all think about why MLG, DreamHack, FXO, Team Liquid, Naniwa, Thorzain and many others feel it is really important to be connected with Korean players.
you dont get the point. it's not about keeping koreans away, it's about establishing regional events (which would if they don't live in that certain region) next to all the global ones. it's about what is the best way to help e-sports evolve. to create something inbetween ladder and NASL / GSL / MLG.
The consumers are Foreigners, it's not an import if the competition and most of the money that is earned by the tournament hosts is in the US. The only real import is GSL, and if you're really xenophobic then stop buying subscriptions to watching GSL (not seriously advised). What the Koreans can win in tournaments is negligible to the amount of money of having the tournament featuring Koreans raised in the Foreign scene.
If you really want to export Foreign esports to Korea, you want to have as much Korean viewers as possible who pay for premium services. Maybe one day, they'll bring their own version of Tastosis to commentate NASL or MLG and etc...
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
Many top SC1 players had motivation year-round despite the fact that the most they could potentially win was a trip somewhere for WCG (just ask Artosis LOL).
Just because of the fact that the gaming industry is ready for SC2 to be it's new big competitive game does not mean that the current top foreign players are simply 'entitled' to having a good shot at that prize money. I believe within 1-2 years we'll be seeing many new hungry talented faces competing for prizes in and outside of Korea so for you to say "we are trying hard to help e-sports blah blah" is extremely self serving. The gamers of course are needed to drive the industry, but the fact is that gamers are not playing for 'E-SPORTS' they are playing for themselves.
For a foreign player to argue that it should be more segregated for the sake of 'E-sports' is pretty pathetic. One thing you are right about is that if the Koreans are so much better and will just rape everything if they are all allowed to compete in foreign tournaments via-online qualifiers etc. it will certainly hamper the growth in some ways (though might help in many ways you have not addressed). This is true and certainly some non-korean 'Champions' would certainly help 'E-SPORTS.' I believe that Koreans wiill dominate long term over-all but once some solid foreign team houses with good practice environments (with koreans) get established over the next couple of years it will certainly narrow the gap.
But for you, as a player, if you want to help E-Sports it's probably better for you to try and get to the level of the Koreans rather than sit around making some mundane arguments which pretty much are saying 'we deserve an easier shot at the $'
This wasn't a video I made in order to make people not invite koreans to their leagues, its simply my opinion on Home grown esports, and the growth of a community, not of me as a player, realistically, if I played a tournament today with the top non-koreans i'd still stand very little chance to win, but at least in my particular case, If I knew that my chances were improved, heck, lets narrow it down even more... If there was -just- a 3000$ prize-pool tournament in florida, for florida residents, I'd practice my ass off for it, because I know that my chances to win would be much bigger, then weather I win it or lose it, I will have become a better player, and if the circle continued, before you know it im devoting all of my time into practicing like I should practice, listening to less songs and singing less on my stream, and becoming a better player who could potentially compete with anyone in the world. THEN I go and play in tournaments with everyone else outside of florida, and if this had happened in every location, everyone will by then have become better players. So obviously im not saying organize a large tournament in florida so I can make more $, im just trying to show what I mean to say here, if there are SOME leagues that SOME players will believe they have a better shot at winning, they'll practice harder for them, become better players and help esports grow, idc if its me or whoever else. Right now, players outside of korea, have a shot at generation better revenue by 'getting out there' being more 'popular' 'raging' etc. Because this means they'll get more stream viewers and more Lessons and whatever else, very few players, like maybe KiWiKaKi will focus all of their efforts in gaming (because as many people know, he's wealthy already) as a result he's much better than most 'pros' who for the most part need to make a living off of the game somehow, not necessarily by playing the game 24/7 and being the best and going to a tournament and winning it.
I think local leagues or even national, leagues, where you realistically can have a shot at the prize pool would drive A LOT more of these players to play the game more and become the best players they can become. Its false that fans won't support this leagues or not watch them if there's no Koreans in it, if that is true, its a small percentage, IPL season one proved that, with good production, it was driving more viewers than NASL was at the time (even though NASL had koreans competing in it).
Im not scared to play Koreans either, I'd LOVE to measure myself against them more often even if I get rapeddddd. But if we continue on this path, you're looking at broodwar 2 in a couple years.
lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
I see where you are coming from. However, I cannot agree with you because the viewers can view tournaments from all over the world.
I think IGN Pro League was one of the most professionally presented Starcraft 2 until now. However, the player pool was not what we call the best. To borrow IdrA's words "It was just a bunch of Americans". It looked great but I would watch DreamHack or MLG over IPL.
Going back to your words, you stated that Koreans take all the prize which discourages people in America to compete. I can translate it as "Koreans are better than Americans (in SC2)". But the viewers want "the best players". If these are true, and we cut Koreans out of the tournament viewers will decrease until Americans become as good as Koreans. But wait, we are in a closed system so we don't know if Americans are better than Koreans unless they compete in Korea or European tournaments with Koreans. IMO, American players are inevitable to face Koreans. The problems you speak of now will happen sooner or later.
I don't think your trying to be a bad guy. You want to have a long career in SC2 with many other pros in America like IdrA, InControl, Select and Cruncher. However we should all think about why MLG, DreamHack, FXO, Team Liquid, Naniwa, Thorzain and many others feel it is really important to be connected with Korean players.
you dont get the point. it's not about keeping koreans away, it's about establishing regional events (which would if they don't live in that certain region) next to all the global ones. it's about what is the best way to help e-sports evolve. to create something inbetween ladder and NASL / GSL / MLG.
I also think pro players overstate their importance in the growth of e-sports. Many fans are just interested in seeing baller games. It doesn't matter who is playing, whether they are home-grown or not. The foreign players being good or bad doesn't matter too much to me as long as I can hear English commentary and casts.
Arguably casters, coaches, and panelists (eg State of the Game and many others) have far more influence. The fact that many of these individuals happen to be pro-players overshadows the importance of the format, and the concept of regular content aimed at the casual and amatuer gamer.
On June 17 2011 11:49 drop271 wrote: I think there are some serious flaws in your argument tbh (and Catz' if that is his theory).
The currency of esports is not prizemoney but fans, views and streams. Ultimately these generate revenue for the event of course, which has a very indirect impact on prizemoney.
That 'currency' (ie fans) does not get 'exported' to Korea if a Korean wins. Therefore there is no loss to the foreign scene.
The only way that there could be an impact is if you were to run an argument that lower (or less access to) prizemoney would mean lower quality foreign players (I know you don't specifically make such a claim). However, views/streams/fans make sponsors more achievable, teams more profitable and player income higher without ever relying on prize money. Koreans adding interest to our foreign tournaments DEFINITELY help this grow. Consequently, I can't see a negative impact from having Korean players. Hell, even if the lack of prizemoney did have an impact, the fact that they have come over and bossed people might inspire and drive foreign players far more than prizemoney ever could.
On June 17 2011 11:39 MidnightSun001 wrote: 1. CatZ is racist – FALSE - he doesn‘t agree with koreans competing in NASL, not because of their race, but locale. Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
Perhaps not racist, but most likely xenophobic. Edit: and being a foreigner yourself in no way prevents you from being racist. Or hypocritical. So I don't think much of your 'proof' sorry
Nice argument though! A lot of thought put in
This.
The OP used economics to explain how this may negatively impact the foreigner scene is wrong. He overlooked the fact that WHO the prize money goes to doesn't affect the foreigner scene of ESPORTS. Fans are the currency of ESPORTS, so even if koreans grab 99% of all prize pools, if fans are able to witness a higher level of play from koreans, this will in no way adversely affect the growth of the foreign scene. (Unless most foreigners are xenophobes)
On the other hand foreigner pros may earn less prize money than without koreans competing, but then the burden is on the foreign scene to bring its play to the next level.
Just for the record, as an economist, I just have to point this out.
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
What CatZ is talking about is the "(X-M)" part which stands for net exports. It is the diffrence of export versus import. When import is higher than export (money leaks) GDP is smaller. If consumers buy more foreign products than local ones, net export is negative. In other words, buying goods from a foreign country fuels money to that country's economy, while your country gets into shit financial situation if this phenomena is en masse.
This is misused in your example. That formula describes the GDP (or net income) of a closed economy, such as an individual nation. It does not describe so accurately this particular interaction: the prize money is not an export, and foreign ESPORTS is not a closed economy either, so Current Account theory doesn't really apply here. The basic concept you are trying to explain is still reasonable, (at least in the concept of trying to explain what Catz meant, I disagree with him and this idea for various reasons).
Rather, the prize money is more analogous to an unclaimed resource.
EDIT: This formula does not apply: it's like trying to use the Drake Equation to describe how many grains of sand there are on a beach.
This argument is so meaningless.If you really want foreigners scene to grow,its not about the money,you guys should practice and reach the level to compete with the koreans.Its been quite long since sc2 came out but they didnt establish pro houses or practice regim to keep up with the koreans,but like catz arguing is so silly.And also the money flowing in korea isnt that big unless you win a gsl or second placed.Actually there are alot of tournaments flying in west and foreigns pros are tooooo busy to coach and stream rather than dedicating to practice.Recently in the Tl Open 574 foreigners and one Korean Hawngsin played and he won the tournament,no surprise
Very interesting perspective, but I think the OP's analysis is problematic in a number of ways.
On June 17 2011 11:39 MidnightSun001 wrote:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
What CatZ is talking about is the "(X-M)" part which stands for net exports. It is the diffrence of export versus import. When import is higher than export (money leaks) GDP is smaller. If consumers buy more foreign products than local ones, net export is negative. In other words, buying goods from a foreign country fuels money to that country's economy, while your country gets into shit financial situation if this phenomena is en masse.
It's certainly not true to say that negative net exports (ie net imports) are necessarily bad in the way that money is "siphoned out of the country" never to be seen again. A situation of net imports shows that imported goods are cheaper than domestically produced goods. If imported goods are cheaper, domestic consumers and business benefit from lower prices. Don't ignore the utility of the cheaper imports themselves.
Also, in times of economic boom, net imports can also relieve the domestic economy from inflation as well. So a situation of net imports itself doesn't not necessarily lead to a shit economy.
On June 17 2011 11:39 MidnightSun001 wrote: Now imagine that different countries are different Starcraft e-sports scenes with a completely free trading market. The growing "western" and the "already-developed" korean scene. The western scene is developing and is starting to create some revenue, however the korean scene, which is already big, competes for the same money. Money is leaked from the western scene into the korean scene via prize pool (as korean players are better financed, received better conditions and training for years, while western players could only do this as a hobby). It is natural for the korean scene to dwarf the underdeveloped western scene. A korean winning a foreign tournament means more money for korean e-sports. If a korean stays and competes in North America, he is part of THAT scene. This is why CatZ does not oppose koreans STAYING to compete in NA tournaments. Stricly speaking the „already developed“ scene would suck funds out of the „developing“ one. This is why Koreans winning foreign tournaments can be POTENTIALLY bad for foreign eSports.
Granted, this is only pize pool money we‘re talking about. It is also unfair to say that all of the money will remain in one particular scene, afterall there is a fair trade going on between the two. However, you have to admit the point remains valid.
Edit: I agree that Koreans can bring interest and revenue to the foreign scene, no doubt they have a positive influence as well, but they can also harm development of foreign Starcraft 2 scene (not purposely of course!). Which approach - "protectionarist" or "free market" is better is a very difficult thing to say, I just wanted to explain the the logic behind protectionarism and CatZ's approach to the matter. I hope the video is enough to give you a view of what CatZ's argument actually was.
Koreans winning prize money does not itself harm the western Esports scene. What's important for Esports growth is that there's growing investment. As a number of others have said in this thread, this is driven by fan support and the marketing opportunities that arise from having a growing fan base. The only way Koreans winning prize money would harm the scene is if winnings were reinvested into the scene, such that Koreans would only reinvest in "their scene" at the expense of the foreign scene. It's very unlikely this reinvestment occurs - more likely winners keep their winnings for their personal consumption. But even if prize money was reinvested into the scene, the effect that would have on the growth of the scene is negligible because prize money would be a relatively small amount compared to total investment in the scene.
On the other hand, you could say that you'd rather see an Americans winning because an American winners are more marketable to western scenes than Korean winners. This is pretty weak though. It's safe to say the Koreans at MLG Columbus partly contributed to greater viewership and awareness of that tournament and that a Korean winning certainly didn't harm the future marketability of MLG.
you dont get the point. it's not about keeping koreans away, it's about establishing regional events (which would if they don't live in that certain region) next to all the global ones. it's about what is the best way to help e-sports evolve. to create something inbetween ladder and NASL / GSL / MLG.
This is 2011 dude. Where is the POINT in having regional tournaments? That's not evolution that's taking two steps backwards.
The "best way to help esports"? What a joke. That's just a way to keep skilled players separated geographically and ensure that they don't have to practice harder or play better to place.
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
Many top SC1 players had motivation year-round despite the fact that the most they could potentially win was a trip somewhere for WCG (just ask Artosis LOL).
Just because of the fact that the gaming industry is ready for SC2 to be it's new big competitive game does not mean that the current top foreign players are simply 'entitled' to having a good shot at that prize money. I believe within 1-2 years we'll be seeing many new hungry talented faces competing for prizes in and outside of Korea so for you to say "we are trying hard to help e-sports blah blah" is extremely self serving. The gamers of course are needed to drive the industry, but the fact is that gamers are not playing for 'E-SPORTS' they are playing for themselves.
For a foreign player to argue that it should be more segregated for the sake of 'E-sports' is pretty pathetic. One thing you are right about is that if the Koreans are so much better and will just rape everything if they are all allowed to compete in foreign tournaments via-online qualifiers etc. it will certainly hamper the growth in some ways (though might help in many ways you have not addressed). This is true and certainly some non-korean 'Champions' would certainly help 'E-SPORTS.' I believe that Koreans wiill dominate long term over-all but once some solid foreign team houses with good practice environments (with koreans) get established over the next couple of years it will certainly narrow the gap.
But for you, as a player, if you want to help E-Sports it's probably better for you to try and get to the level of the Koreans rather than sit around making some mundane arguments which pretty much are saying 'we deserve an easier shot at the $'
This wasn't a video I made in order to make people not invite koreans to their leagues, its simply my opinion on Home grown esports, and the growth of a community, not of me as a player, realistically, if I played a tournament today with the top non-koreans i'd still stand very little chance to win, but at least in my particular case, If I knew that my chances were improved, heck, lets narrow it down even more... If there was -just- a 3000$ prize-pool tournament in florida, for florida residents, I'd practice my ass off for it, because I know that my chances to win would be much bigger, then weather I win it or lose it, I will have become a better player, and if the circle continued, before you know it im devoting all of my time into practicing like I should practice, listening to less songs and singing less on my stream, and becoming a better player who could potentially compete with anyone in the world. THEN I go and play in tournaments with everyone else outside of florida, and if this had happened in every location, everyone will by then have become better players. So obviously im not saying organize a large tournament in florida so I can make more $, im just trying to show what I mean to say here, if there are SOME leagues that SOME players will believe they have a better shot at winning, they'll practice harder for them, become better players and help esports grow, idc if its me or whoever else. Right now, players outside of korea, have a shot at generation better revenue by 'getting out there' being more 'popular' 'raging' etc. Because this means they'll get more stream viewers and more Lessons and whatever else, very few players, like maybe KiWiKaKi will focus all of their efforts in gaming (because as many people know, he's wealthy already) as a result he's much better than most 'pros' who for the most part need to make a living off of the game somehow, not necessarily by playing the game 24/7 and being the best and going to a tournament and winning it.
I think local leagues or even national, leagues, where you realistically can have a shot at the prize pool would drive A LOT more of these players to play the game more and become the best players they can become. Its false that fans won't support this leagues or not watch them if there's no Koreans in it, if that is true, its a small percentage, IPL season one proved that, with good production, it was driving more viewers than NASL was at the time (even though NASL had koreans competing in it).
Im not scared to play Koreans either, I'd LOVE to measure myself against them more often even if I get rapeddddd. But if we continue on this path, you're looking at broodwar 2 in a couple years.
This is true but of course SC2 is going to continue to grow and expand to a level where the Koreans can not play in everything and people will have their shot. But as long as there is either a. a big level of interest for the tourney or b. big prizes the non-korean gamers are pretty screwed and that will never change unless they can get on the Korean's level.
I do not believe we are looking at broodwar2 if this 'path' is continued. SC2 has MBS LOL!
This wasn't a video I made in order to make people not invite koreans to their leagues, its simply my opinion on Home grown esports, and the growth of a community, not of me as a player, realistically, if I played a tournament today with the top non-koreans i'd still stand very little chance to win, but at least in my particular case, If I knew that my chances were improved, heck, lets narrow it down even more... If there was -just- a 3000$ prize-pool tournament in florida, for florida residents, I'd practice my ass off for it, because I know that my chances to win would be much bigger
That's your problem. What's stopping you from doing that NOW?
lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
I see where you are coming from. However, I cannot agree with you because the viewers can view tournaments from all over the world.
I think IGN Pro League was one of the most professionally presented Starcraft 2 until now. However, the player pool was not what we call the best. To borrow IdrA's words "It was just a bunch of Americans". It looked great but I would watch DreamHack or MLG over IPL.
Going back to your words, you stated that Koreans take all the prize which discourages people in America to compete. I can translate it as "Koreans are better than Americans (in SC2)". But the viewers want "the best players". If these are true, and we cut Koreans out of the tournament viewers will decrease until Americans become as good as Koreans. But wait, we are in a closed system so we don't know if Americans are better than Koreans unless they compete in Korea or European tournaments with Koreans. IMO, American players are inevitable to face Koreans. The problems you speak of now will happen sooner or later.
I don't think your trying to be a bad guy. You want to have a long career in SC2 with many other pros in America like IdrA, InControl, Select and Cruncher. However we should all think about why MLG, DreamHack, FXO, Team Liquid, Naniwa, Thorzain and many others feel it is really important to be connected with Korean players.
you dont get the point. it's not about keeping koreans away, it's about establishing regional events (which would if they don't live in that certain region) next to all the global ones. it's about what is the best way to help e-sports evolve. to create something inbetween ladder and NASL / GSL / MLG.
You mean establishing regional events where Koreans are not allowed because they will win it, discouraging the regional players from competing.
There is a simple solution to this. Make more small tournaments Off-line, like GSL. The fact that they have to fly over to Korea and live there is the biggest issue for all non-Korean players to compete in GSL, right? So we do that, regional events, Americans only. Then what's going to happen after? Are we gonna ban Catz, Idra, Machine and all these really top tier American players from competing because they discourage the new upcoming stars by taking away a potential win?
I think Starcraft is one of those things right now where if you want to be a top player, well known, and make the big bucks then you have to at some point participate and be successful in the Korean scene. Like what Naniwa and Thorzain are doing. They want to be the best, and they recognize that in order to do so, you have to play Koreans. Much like if you want to be a big time basketball player, you sort of have to play in the NBA. However with Starcraft, you can play Koreans without too much trouble in foreign tournaments such as TSL, MLG, and NASL and others. If you want to win tournaments and make lots of money without showing your skills to the best(Koreans), then I don't think you deserve to win or the money.
On June 17 2011 13:04 duckducktiM wrote: I'm an econ major, but it dosen't take someone with any of knowledge to know that the following equation:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
this has nothing to do with ANYTHING esports related.. or is extremely trivial... the money that is won in tournaments is probably not reinvested within in esports.. yea maybe it'll effect the overall GDP of the united states (lol) which is pretty meaningless, but it doesn't affect the "circulation" of money within esports.. I doubt any foreigner whose won e-sports reinvested the prize money on something esports related
Secondly, if you want to use economics as an argument then you can use the example of "smaller less efficient firms (foreigners) being subsidized/helped (team houses, overseas training) to become more efficient to then be able to compete... these subsidies may be a short term loss but will be beneficial in the long run as firms (players) become more efficient (better) and are able to compete with other firms (koreans).
tl;dr - tough it out, in the long run it'll all be good.
Thanks for taking time to type this out. I'm not an econ major myself, I give you that (took classes voluntarlily for a year, 'coz I was just interested in the subject). I don't deny not understanding everything and I can see how applying this formula (created for countries) to eSports can look dodgy, hardly applicable, but I disagree about the circulation aspect.
TotalBiscuit is one such example (granted not a player, but I can't come up with someone else at 7 a.m. in the morning). The money that he makes from casting tournaments is used to fund his own tournaments, then tournaments give ad money for new tournaments - like the newly SHOUTcraft Invitational. There's definitely some circulation there.
CatZ said it way better than me, because well...he's fucking CatZ, he knows what he meant. And I may be completely wrong or just a little bit right or god forbids, spot on even, but I think this is just an interesting subject to discuss.
P.S. this was sparked by a comment on reddit discussing that there are few americans in NASL finals, it was basically making fun/shitting on CatZ for his statements. And as I've said my comment got a little...lengthy.
On June 17 2011 13:04 duckducktiM wrote: I'm an econ major, but it dosen't take someone with any of knowledge to know that the following equation:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
this has nothing to do with ANYTHING esports related.. or is extremely trivial... the money that is won in tournaments is probably not reinvested within in esports.. yea maybe it'll effect the overall GDP of the united states (lol) which is pretty meaningless, but it doesn't affect the "circulation" of money within esports.. I doubt any foreigner whose won e-sports reinvested the prize money on something esports related
Secondly, if you want to use economics as an argument then you can use the example of "smaller less efficient firms (foreigners) being subsidized/helped (team houses, overseas training) to become more efficient to then be able to compete... these subsidies may be a short term loss but will be beneficial in the long run as firms (players) become more efficient (better) and are able to compete with other firms (koreans).
tl;dr - tough it out, in the long run it'll all be good.
Thanks for taking time to type this out. I'm not an econ major myself, I give you that (took classes voluntarlily for a year, 'coz I was just interested in the subject). I don't deny not understanding everything and I can see how applying this formula (created for countries) to eSports can look dodgy, hardly applicable, but I disagree about the circulation aspect.
TotalBiscuit is one such example (granted not a player, but I can't come up with someone else at 7 a.m. in the morning). The money that he makes from casting tournaments is used to fund his own tournaments, then tournaments give ad money for new tournaments - like the newly SHOUTcraft Invitational. There's definitely some circulation there.
CatZ said it way better than me, because well...he's fucking CatZ, he knows what he meant. And I may be completely wrong or just a little bit right or god forbids, spot on even, but I think this is just an interesting subject to discuss.
P.S. this was sparked by a comment on reddit discussing that there are few americans in NASL finals, it was basically making fun/shitting on CatZ for his statements. And as I've said my comment got a little...lengthy.
so catz is going to create new catz tournaments???? stupid example.
As a spectator I feel that the skillgap between foreigner players are too far away from each other to make games interresting to watch. Even now alot of NASL games are so one-sided it's not worth watching. I barely tune in nowadays unless it's two players who've shown some form of consistency or there are games that i've gotten highly recommended.
There's provably a reason why there's none to few(I can't really name any) foreign or korean sc2 tournaments(made up number: 30k+ usd winnings) that's run at a regular basis. I don't really see any entrepreneurs brave enough to try running large scale tournaments on a regional level. Hell, it's going to be hard trying to sell that idea to someone who could fund it.
1. CatZ is racist – FALSE - he doesn‘t agree with koreans competing in NASL, not because of their race, but locale. Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
First of all, the 'He's a minority too so he can't be racist!' argument is dumb, as if anyone non-white can't be racist.
Second, this would be a good counterargument IF he didn't single out Koreans. However, why doesn't he say the same things about Europeans? He says nothing about Euro players in the NASL.
Well, that one‘s easy, let‘s do another one. 2. CatZ wants to win more money and is afraid of korean competition – FALSE – this argument is of purely economical inclination, Paolo is saying that the prize money should stay and circulate in the foreign Starcraft scene – I will go into deeper detail on this in a second.
Before jumping to any of these previously mentioned false conclusions you should ask yourself how much do you know about money flow. The CatZ argument is purely economically inclined. There is no "boo-hoo they too strong and doesn't afraid of anything" here. When you're thinking of CatZ's statement's you should consider...
A simple economical formula that most students know:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
What CatZ is talking about is the "(X-M)" part which stands for net exports. It is the diffrence of export versus import. When import is higher than export (money leaks) GDP is smaller. If consumers buy more foreign products than local ones, net export is negative. In other words, buying goods from a foreign country fuels money to that country's economy, while your country gets into shit financial situation if this phenomena is en masse.
Here's a real world example, one that was given to me by a macroeconomics proffesor in my university, an example that is very relevant to me.
Lithuania joined the European Union. The small(er) business here were bought out by foreign competitors. The products that people buy are often products of foreign companies. This makes import high and export low. If this negative isn‘t compesated by other factos in the formula the national debt is piling up as net export remains negative. That‘s where This leads to huge economical tendencies that I won't go into about.
Now imagine that different countries are different Starcraft e-sports scenes with a completely free trading market. The growing "western" and the "already-developed" korean scene. The western scene is developing and is starting to create some revenue, however the korean scene, which is already big, competes for the same money. Money is leaked from the western scene into the korean scene via prize pool (as korean players are better financed, received better conditions and training for years, while western players could only do this as a hobby). It is natural for the korean scene to dwarf the underdeveloped western scene. A korean winning a foreign tournament means more money for korean e-sports. If a korean stays and competes in North America, he is part of THAT scene. This is why CatZ does not oppose koreans STAYING to compete in NA tournaments. Stricly speaking the „already developed“ scene would suck funds out of the „developing“ one. This is why Koreans winning foreign tournaments can be POTENTIALLY bad for foreign eSports.
Granted, this is only pize pool money we‘re talking about. It is also unfair to say that all of the money will remain in one particular scene, afterall there is a fair trade going on between the two. However, you have to admit the point remains valid.
CatZ‘s argument is purely economical and I want you to understand this perspective.
This short article was not written to change your opinion, it does not instrigate any hostilities toward any nation whatsoever. In the end, take this opinion for what it is – a way to look at the subject. I do not expect for you to agree with the reasoning, nor to change it, but I want you to understand that there is perfectly reasonable rationale behind Catz‘s argument. Everyone has their own opinion and is free to (respectfully) disagree, I hope that this article at least helped to explain the CatZ‘s side of the argument.
Edit: I agree that Koreans can bring interest and revenue to the foreign scene, no doubt they have a positive influence as well, but they can also harm development of foreign Starcraft 2 scene (not purposely of course!). Which approach - "protectionarist" or "free market" is better is a very difficult thing to say, I just wanted to explain the the logic behind protectionarism and CatZ's approach to the matter. I hope the video is enough to give you a view of what CatZ's argument actually was.
This argument is even more brittle. You're trying to compare macro-economics to the NASL? Is that a joke? I've seen a lot of bad analogies/comparisons on these forums, but this is by far the worst. The NASL isn't a self sustaining economy. It gets money from sponsors and stream subscriptions. The prize money it gives out does NOT come full circle and feed the NASL.
Also, you do realize that the foreign scene is considered MORE lucrative right now? So that destroys your entire assumption that the Korean scene dwarfs the foreign scene in terms of economics. There's a reason players like Idra, TLO and such have left Korea. There's more money and opportunity to be had abroad, and it's easier at that.
I seriously don't get why all these anti-Koreans feel the need to make a new thread every time they want to spout this illogical nonsense. There's been 3-4 threads by people with similar mindsets as you.
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
Many top SC1 players had motivation year-round despite the fact that the most they could potentially win was a trip somewhere for WCG (just ask Artosis LOL).
Just because of the fact that the gaming industry is ready for SC2 to be it's new big competitive game does not mean that the current top foreign players are simply 'entitled' to having a good shot at that prize money. I believe within 1-2 years we'll be seeing many new hungry talented faces competing for prizes in and outside of Korea so for you to say "we are trying hard to help e-sports blah blah" is extremely self serving. The gamers of course are needed to drive the industry, but the fact is that gamers are not playing for 'E-SPORTS' they are playing for themselves.
For a foreign player to argue that it should be more segregated for the sake of 'E-sports' is pretty pathetic. One thing you are right about is that if the Koreans are so much better and will just rape everything if they are all allowed to compete in foreign tournaments via-online qualifiers etc. it will certainly hamper the growth in some ways (though might help in many ways you have not addressed). This is true and certainly some non-korean 'Champions' would certainly help 'E-SPORTS.' I believe that Koreans wiill dominate long term over-all but once some solid foreign team houses with good practice environments (with koreans) get established over the next couple of years it will certainly narrow the gap.
But for you, as a player, if you want to help E-Sports it's probably better for you to try and get to the level of the Koreans rather than sit around making some mundane arguments which pretty much are saying 'we deserve an easier shot at the $'
This wasn't a video I made in order to make people not invite koreans to their leagues, its simply my opinion on Home grown esports, and the growth of a community, not of me as a player, realistically, if I played a tournament today with the top non-koreans i'd still stand very little chance to win, but at least in my particular case, If I knew that my chances were improved, heck, lets narrow it down even more... If there was -just- a 3000$ prize-pool tournament in florida, for florida residents, I'd practice my ass off for it, because I know that my chances to win would be much bigger, then weather I win it or lose it, I will have become a better player, and if the circle continued, before you know it im devoting all of my time into practicing like I should practice, listening to less songs and singing less on my stream, and becoming a better player who could potentially compete with anyone in the world. THEN I go and play in tournaments with everyone else outside of florida, and if this had happened in every location, everyone will by then have become better players. So obviously im not saying organize a large tournament in florida so I can make more $, im just trying to show what I mean to say here, if there are SOME leagues that SOME players will believe they have a better shot at winning, they'll practice harder for them, become better players and help esports grow, idc if its me or whoever else. Right now, players outside of korea, have a shot at generation better revenue by 'getting out there' being more 'popular' 'raging' etc. Because this means they'll get more stream viewers and more Lessons and whatever else, very few players, like maybe KiWiKaKi will focus all of their efforts in gaming (because as many people know, he's wealthy already) as a result he's much better than most 'pros' who for the most part need to make a living off of the game somehow, not necessarily by playing the game 24/7 and being the best and going to a tournament and winning it.
I think local leagues or even national, leagues, where you realistically can have a shot at the prize pool would drive A LOT more of these players to play the game more and become the best players they can become. Its false that fans won't support this leagues or not watch them if there's no Koreans in it, if that is true, its a small percentage, IPL season one proved that, with good production, it was driving more viewers than NASL was at the time (even though NASL had koreans competing in it).
Im not scared to play Koreans either, I'd LOVE to measure myself against them more often even if I get rapeddddd. But if we continue on this path, you're looking at broodwar 2 in a couple years.
This is the problem with your viewpoint entirely: you think about it in terms of money. You say you'd 'try harder' if the money was easier to gain, well, that's exactly your problem right there.
Stopped reading at the equation. Who the @#$ knows what C or G or I means? Why make this stuff more complicated than it is? Explaining requires making things simpler, not harder.
On June 17 2011 13:31 dizzy101 wrote: Stopped reading at the equation. Who the @#$ knows what C or G or I means? Why make this stuff more complicated than it is? Explaining requires making things simpler, not harder.
It's meaningless jargon to try and make him sound more authoritative. Essentially it's saying that money earned should be used to re-invest in itself and make even more money, but that's a faulty line of reasoning considering people who get tournament winnings don't take that money and re-invest in esports.
I don't there will ever be the kind of skill gap between Koreans and foreigners in SC2 as there was in BW, just because the game is less mechanically demanding.
Tbh I think the root of this is about who you are practising against. If foreigners were able to practise against top Koreans I don't think any of this would be so much of an issue. As it is the communities are relatively segregated, if not by language barriers or latency then by the artificial one Blizzard put up; Servers. Perhaps tournaments should reflect that fact.
Reading the comments I just had the thought: How did the Korean league start? I know for a fact that the Starcraft cult in Korea wasn't something that happened overnight. It took dedicated players and people making risky choices in order for it to grow and expand to the size it has today. So I feel that you have make the same choices and the same risky "business," except for the fact that you have something to work off from. Korean, relatively, started their Starcraft movement from scratch. The U.S already had a huge fan base and you have to tap into that as a resource, not necessarily in the streaming sense, but in the sense that fans = commercial potential and commercial potential = potential sponsors. And I have to agree with alot of the above said statements in that your chances of winning should be a motivation of practicing and training hard instead of trying to filter in and segregate the regional leagues until the U.S. pro scene is comfortable enough to allow Koreans in. You guys are professional GAMERS, as in you play games, which means that first and foremost you have a passion for the game. I feel that this is being looked at by catz (as well as many others probably,) as something too far into the business means of things,
how the hell is some random LAN in FL going to have a $3k prize pool unless....(sorry) better players than catz are there? this mythical tournament is what catz says he needs to get better. umm...ok. i'd probably get better too if there's some random NYC LAN for diamond players for $3k as well. doesn't mean that my pocket equals ESPORTZ
It's an issue though if the Koreans are snapping up every tournament. As things stand I think there's a nice balance, a few Korean invites to the MLG/Dreamhack etc seems fair to me, it'll BECOME a problem if it becomes the norm for every single Western tournament however.
The financial incentive NEEDS to be there for Western players in order for them to play full time, get practice environments in which they can compete on an even footing with Koreans. As it stands there are foreigners who can do this, but they are few and far between really. Somebody like Kiwikaki is already independently wealthy, so can afford to play full time. Idra has solid mechanics down from his BW days, so he can afford to slack off a bit, he's even said in the past that his mechanics are good enough that he can practice less, something that he may step up in the future. Players of this ilk are rare, and those who DID go over to Korea aren't exactly reaping the rewards.
I mean Huk and Jinro didn't get over to Columbus what with their prior commitments/whatever reason existed there
Take Destiny as an example of sorts. He's not at the absolute elite level yet ofc, but is his development being helped by having to mass ladder and coach to pay the bills? It cuts into whatever serious practice he wants to do
haha catz talking about broodwar2 is just ridiculous sry. the koreans just got GSL and 1-2 small cups while the western scene got 2378923478923487923 cups with solid pricemoney and even more major tournaments.
how can u rly have a motivational problem with that much money floating arround in the western scene? and whats your point with the florida lan? u want 80.000$ tourneys for F-class-Players that nearly nobody wants to watch?
On June 17 2011 13:37 Davion wrote: Reading the comments I just had the thought: How did the Korean league start? I know for a fact that the Starcraft cult in Korea wasn't something that happened overnight. It took dedicated players and people making risky choices in order for it to grow and expand to the size it has today. So I feel that you have make the same choices and the same risky "business," except for the fact that you have something to work off from. Korean, relatively, started their Starcraft movement from scratch. The U.S already had a huge fan base and you have to tap into that as a resource, not necessarily in the streaming sense, but in the sense that fans = commercial potential and commercial potential = potential sponsors. And I have to agree with alot of the above said statements in that your chances of winning should be a motivation of practicing and training hard instead of trying to filter in and segregate the regional leagues until the U.S. pro scene is comfortable enough to allow Koreans in. You guys are professional GAMERS, as in you play games, which means that first and foremost you have a passion for the game. I feel that this is being looked at by catz (as well as many others probably,) as something too far into the business means of things,
It was actually less romantic. Basically Japan was a pretty big video game producer back then, but Korea especially during that time HATED anything Japan so PC gaming was pretty big. And what was the best PC game out there?
But it did take HUGE risks, dedication and willingness to improve.
On June 17 2011 13:02 toastnbutter wrote: i think some of you guys are bashing catz for the wrong reasons. this is what i take away from catz's thoughts:
he just wants to see the foreign e-sports scene to become more fully developed first in their respective regions. and by that i mean for e-sports to eventually become a legitimate competition in the eyes of a John Smith who would otherwise hear the word "e-sports" and go "wtf is that?".
let's take professional soccer or basketball or any other major sport as an example. each country has their own developed leagues for such sports. and within each of those leagues are their own teams who compete amongst each other. and once in a while there are prestigious global events where these leagues compete against one another for a World Title (example: Olympics, etc.)
i think catz just means that he would like to see the foregin e-sport scenes to develop nicely on their own and catch up tp the developed Korean scene before they try to compete together. that's not to say that if a Korean player wanted to come to MLG they can't...they most certainly are welcome to come over to compete. however, it'd be better for the foreign scene if these players decided they wanted to compete by living in the foreign scene. (example: Yao Ming of the NBA)
that's just my take on CatZ's ideas. im not agreeing or disagreeing with him, i just feel like people are bashing his thoughts for no reason or bashing him because they are misunderstanding the points being made.
quoting his first post on TL that puts many of you to shame. I can't even tell whether some people are not able or not willing to read Catz's statements.
on the actual argument: you do raise a valid concern. it isn't too far-fetched either. it should be understood that a healthy enviroment is one that consist of a wide variety of sustainability.
let's draw a parabel: imagine soccer would only have 1 fat ass tournament, huge prizepool, best players, walla walla. nothing else. wow, pretty cool. sure, all the little ronaldo's and beckham's would love to be on the top one day. sadly they won't make it out of the gutter without someone in town to play with, to fail in their churches' community tournament, get beaten by their school coach to stop doing drugs, get an bench-warmer offer by scouts of the second best team in their regional division, advance to the national league as the youngest player in history. you get the drift.
now there is a historical romanticism involved in pro-gaming. "warriors" that conquered their way through just with their sheer will and their thruthful 12$ dell mouse. what does make for a great story is inapplicable for real life. history has the tendendy to repeat itself. we have seen countless of games being at the brink and beyond. as much as everybody wants to believe, SC2 is nowhere near a "safe state". for all we know this shit could be over by the next recession.
now what you, Catz, want is perfectly reasonable. an enviroment that not only feeds the top 1%, but is also able to curate talent out of itself. but frankly, I just don't see enough money involved yet.
On June 17 2011 12:34 namedplayer wrote: so what is his point?
'Don't let Koreans compete in western scene because White dudez can't beat Koreans?'
why don't he just practice harder and try to beat Koreans? hm... maybe he just doesn't wanna practice harder.
Ideally in my fantasy would there would be plenty of tournaments as there are now where koreans can be measured against non-koreans, and provided the scene has some time to breathe and grow, I think you'd get to see a lot more interesting matches.
The foreign scene had as much time to 'grow and breath' as the Korean scene. I would argue more time, actually. For a long time in beta, the Korean scene was largely unknown to the West. You try to create this impression that the Koreans were secretly playing SC2 for three decades before the NA scene or something.
And don't start with the 'BW infrastructure' bs, because there's exactly zero high level BW pros who swapped over to SC2. They were either established BW legends like July/Nada/Boxer who weren't hyper competitive in BW at the time of SC2, or second-tier BW players. Nestea for example had very abysmal stats in BW, yet is now one of the top SC2 players. He didn't have any magical infrastructure to support him: he played at home and in fact STILL lives at home and doesn't even live at the IM house.
On June 17 2011 13:40 Ubertron wrote: It's an issue though if the Koreans are snapping up every tournament. As things stand I think there's a nice balance, a few Korean invites to the MLG/Dreamhack etc seems fair to me, it'll BECOME a problem if it becomes the norm for every single Western tournament however.
The financial incentive NEEDS to be there for Western players in order for them to play full time, get practice environments in which they can compete on an even footing with Koreans. As it stands there are foreigners who can do this, but they are few and far between really. Somebody like Kiwikaki is already independently wealthy, so can afford to play full time. Idra has solid mechanics down from his BW days, so he can afford to slack off a bit, he's even said in the past that his mechanics are good enough that he can practice less, something that he may step up in the future. Players of this ilk are rare, and those who DID go over to Korea aren't exactly reaping the rewards.
I mean Huk and Jinro didn't get over to Columbus what with their prior commitments/whatever reason existed there
Take Destiny as an example of sorts. He's not at the absolute elite level yet ofc, but is his development being helped by having to mass ladder and coach to pay the bills? It cuts into whatever serious practice he wants to do
So then where are these Korean players getting their money from? Are you trying to claim the average Korean gamer is more affluent than the average American gamer? You'll bring up practice houses and teams, but you'll be confusing the cause with the effect. In the beginning, there were no practice houses or teams for SC2; the biggest thing was oGs which was a clan. If you look at the background of every top Korean now, they started off just like anyone else: playing solo on the ladder in their own home.
Once again, it's the mythical assumption that in Korea you can drop everything and just play games all day and not have to worry about bills/food/housing. Right, just like in America I can stop going to school/work and just play basketball all day, cause the NBA exists here, right?
i think catz is mistaken about the trajectory of the game but i understand what he's saying, in his ideal situation not only would he make more money (nothing wrong with that, sorry guys) but the scene in the americas and europe would grow faster as well... i just don't think it's realistic. growing an industry like this, you aren't going to find the resources to be having state or regional tournaments with four figure cash prizes.
the game has to grow organically here in the US for the money to come. there is no source for the money to come from first and the growth that would come from attraction to the money. unless maybe we can get some venture capitalists together to plop down 5 or 10 mill on making sc2 americas first major esport, someone call mark cuban maybe? he's in a pretty good right now from what i hear, he might go for it. especially if hes drunk and taking a picture of himself pissing with the trophy in his bathroom when we call.
He was already thrown under the bus by making these comments why bring it up and do it all over again to him. He is forgetting a key factor of one of the largest factors of what makes esports grow. The fans. The final selling point on me purchasing a premium feature for the NASL was the acceptance of Koreans, they provide amazing games.
The money is easily out there for the players, whether its one of the many small tournaments or the invitationals. Its also possible as many of them sell lessons for about $40 an hour. ROOT as well just got picked up by Complexity so that should be even more motivation to perform.
On June 17 2011 12:50 coL.CatZ wrote: I agree with everything you said, except on the long-term brood war has proven what's gonna happen it won't be better for e sports outside of Korea, period, sure you can still turn on your computer and watch the korean tournaments and the best players in the world in a couple of years from now, but if you wanna go watch those events live, you'll have to fly over. There's a reason blizzard put starcraft logos in Air Korea planes and not American Airlines, why blizzard helped make the GSL in korea and not somewhere else, its strictly financial in this cases, the scene there is already built, e-sports are widely accepted and so to sell their new game and generate more revenue, they chose to go to the already-stablished country, the 'home' of esports, or why Liquid moved to korea in the first place, the scene is much bigger and so is the support and acceptance, its just better atm, its a much more player-friendly environment systems and practice houses and coaches are in place, its better to move to korea if you want to improve as a player, there's no doubt about that. Here in the west its just getting started, there are very few houses, with very few players, none with a coach, and likely none with practice / eating schedules, its MUCH harder to start doing something like this here, because we (esports) are just starting (hopefully) to grow here.
...Seriously? The SC2 eSports scene has had FUCKING huge growth in ONE year. Why are you complaining that it's not on TV, that you're not seeing ads in planes when the western esports market as a whole has done what was UNTHINKABLE two years ago.
So that's it huh? Since you don't have you're "support" or whatever all the players outside of Korea are going to die out and that'll be that? That's just... gah.
Liquid didn't move to Korea to get better. They already WERE FUCKING AWESOME and they went their to TAKE IT to the KOREANS. They did exactly the opposite of what you want and decided to TAKE UP THE CHALLENGE and FIGHT the MOST skilled professional starcraft2 players in the world. Coaches, pro houses and all that stupid nonsense don't make the players, they just help them.
You can make excuses all you want, but being a starcraft2 player comes down to HARD WORK and players like IdrA can attest to that with their ridiculous practice schedules.
In my opinion Catz's view of esport is totally different than reality of esport, where the number of viewers and sponsors are the real driven force.
Players with big fan base made the name for themself by playing good on an international stage, not by winning regional tournaments where majority of viewers are locals.
For a regional league to stay afloat with a reasonable prize pool, you first have to show some results, as in the players from the regional league are near equal with the foreign players. With no result sponsors wouldn't dare to invest money in a regional league, because it would means low viewership, you're basically talking about the money that wouldn't exists in the first place.
On June 17 2011 13:37 Davion wrote: Reading the comments I just had the thought: How did the Korean league start? I know for a fact that the Starcraft cult in Korea wasn't something that happened overnight. It took dedicated players and people making risky choices in order for it to grow and expand to the size it has today. So I feel that you have make the same choices and the same risky "business," except for the fact that you have something to work off from. Korean, relatively, started their Starcraft movement from scratch. The U.S already had a huge fan base and you have to tap into that as a resource, not necessarily in the streaming sense, but in the sense that fans = commercial potential and commercial potential = potential sponsors. And I have to agree with alot of the above said statements in that your chances of winning should be a motivation of practicing and training hard instead of trying to filter in and segregate the regional leagues until the U.S. pro scene is comfortable enough to allow Koreans in. You guys are professional GAMERS, as in you play games, which means that first and foremost you have a passion for the game. I feel that this is being looked at by catz (as well as many others probably,) as something too far into the business means of things,
Korean league started from bunch of PC bangs tournament... but nowaday, we don't need PC bang in order to compete a game tournament. We have sick internet and there are so many online tournaments instead of PC bang tournament.
Coaches, pro houses and all that stupid nonsense don't make the players, they just help them.
Yes, help them get to a level of mechanical efficiency that is hard to match if you don't have the time to spend on turning your wrist into a weapon of mass destruction like they do. We don't have that yet. But we will someday
On June 17 2011 13:53 DeepElemBlues wrote: Yes, help them get to a level of mechanical efficiency that is hard to match if you don't have the time to spend on turning your wrist into a weapon of mass destruction like they do. We don't have that yet. But we will someday
Yeah. Fucking Korean pro houses. That's the reason why Flash got so good. Because he was in a pro house right?
No. It was HARD WORK. And if it's a matter of time PLENTY of foreign players RIGHT NOW are doing it full time as well so that's NO EXCUSE.
On June 17 2011 13:45 rotegirte wrote: let's draw a parabel: imagine soccer would only have 1 fat ass tournament, huge prizepool, best players, walla walla. nothing else. wow, pretty cool. sure, all the little ronaldo's and beckham's would love to be on the top one day. sadly they won't make it out of the gutter without someone in town to play with, to fail in their churches' community tournament, get beaten by their school coach to stop doing drugs, get an bench-warmer offer by scouts of the second best team in their regional division, advance to the national league as the youngest player in history. you get the drift.
now there is a historical romanticism involved in pro-gaming. "warriors" that conquered their way through just with their sheer will and their thruthful 12$ dell mouse. what does make for a great story is inapplicable for real life. history has the tendendy to repeat itself. we have seen countless of games being at the brink and beyond. as much as everybody wants to believe, SC2 is nowhere near a "safe state". for all we know this shit could be over by the next recession.
now what you, Catz, want is perfectly reasonable. an enviroment that not only feeds the top 1%, but is also able to curate talent out of itself. but frankly, I just don't see enough money involved yet.
...That "parabel" made no sense. What the fuck are you comparing with these someones in towns coaches who stop you from doing drugs and bench warmer scouts? Is this supposed to be a comparison to the family who support.. what? Most tournaments are open to the public like the Tactic3d Open tournament which featured like 1000 amateurs.
"This shit" lasted THROUGH this recession and GREW during it. That isn't a valid threat to the growth of eSports but I would love to hear what Hallucinations you can create. Other than that there is no real argument there... Just meaningless rhetoric.
So what's perfectly reasonable? An esports environment that rewards players for hiding from skilled players? There's PLENTY of money being thrown around. How much money do you need, how many tournaments do you need because look to the right of this post and you'll see DAMN PLENTY OF THEM.
Maybe the solution should be barring players who are too skilled from competing. So it would be "fair".
On June 17 2011 13:02 toastnbutter wrote: i think some of you guys are bashing catz for the wrong reasons. this is what i take away from catz's thoughts:
he just wants to see the foreign e-sports scene to become more fully developed first in their respective regions. and by that i mean for e-sports to eventually become a legitimate competition in the eyes of a John Smith who would otherwise hear the word "e-sports" and go "wtf is that?".
let's take professional soccer or basketball or any other major sport as an example. each country has their own developed leagues for such sports. and within each of those leagues are their own teams who compete amongst each other. and once in a while there are prestigious global events where these leagues compete against one another for a World Title (example: Olympics, etc.)
i think catz just means that he would like to see the foregin e-sport scenes to develop nicely on their own and catch up tp the developed Korean scene before they try to compete together. that's not to say that if a Korean player wanted to come to MLG they can't...they most certainly are welcome to come over to compete. however, it'd be better for the foreign scene if these players decided they wanted to compete by living in the foreign scene. (example: Yao Ming of the NBA)
that's just my take on CatZ's ideas. im not agreeing or disagreeing with him, i just feel like people are bashing his thoughts for no reason or bashing him because they are misunderstanding the points being made.
now there is a historical romanticism involved in pro-gaming. "warriors" that conquered their way through just with their sheer will and their thruthful 12$ dell mouse. what does make for a great story is inapplicable for real life. history has the tendendy to repeat itself. we have seen countless of games being at the brink and beyond. as much as everybody wants to believe, SC2 is nowhere near a "safe state". for all we know this shit could be over by the next recession. .
Except that's exactly how pro-gaming works? Did you even watch/read the interviews of any of the GSL winners/runner ups? Fruitdealer and MKP both said their families looked down on their hobby and they had to play in secret until they actually got far in the tourney to be proud of it. That's fairly rags to riches.
Also, there is no hypothetical 'super tournament' as you mentioned, not even the GSL. If it were, then MLG and Dreamhack wouldn't be as popular as they are. The reality of it is that the foreign scene is fairly strong:
1) Economically, the foreign scene is LARGER than the Korean scene. It is a well known complaint amongst Korean players that they don't have ENOUGH tournaments because of GOM's contract monopoly.
2) Skill-wise, Europe is not far from Korea. MMA himself said Thorzain would do well in GSL, and Thorzain + Naniwa will be going to Korea to compete. The only region that is far behind is North America. So if you want to complain about Korea from a NA perspective, you might as well bitch about Europeans coming and 'ruining' the NA scene as well.
Because if you look at tournament results, Europeans have consistently dominated North American players. Yet you don't see Catz whining about Europeans, probably because him and people like you want to create an 'Us vs Them' mentality amongst the Western scene, when in reality it's just North America that is struggling in terms of skilled players.
On June 17 2011 13:20 Rekrul wrote: But yeah being a Korean gamer is very imba. If you're a non-korean gamer you have to balance your game playing with earning money and your real life.
If you're Korean you just sit around playing games all day eating 2 cent ramyun and becoming gosu.
Yeah that sure stopped grrr from winning osl. From what I read he didn't really practice that much either compared to koreans. So far in this thread from OP on has been excuses. Too many dollar signs in the eyes and less focus on beating the next opponent.
i don't agree with the idea that being inclusive is the best way of growing the NA scene or the broader foreign scene.
i do think catz's PoV is more realistic than the "hurrr im just going to get better and that's that" PoV some of you are giving. remember, catz is speaking as a player and, at the time, a team leader. he's not a tournament manager or spectator/casual/amateur/whatever. foreign teams are trying to copy both the korean infrastructure (living arrangements and sponsors) and the practicing style. if the korean scene grew from within without having to face down farther advanced players in a completely different region, then it does make sense that strictly growing from within would be a viable way to make the NA/foreign player scene strong(er).
i think it's likely that foreign players, not having people like boxer or many of the other former BW pros as coaches and/or teammates, will continue to fall behind the korean scene (there are many other things korean sc2 players have going for them) until a solid system, one that can rival korea's, is in place for practicing and coaching.
On June 17 2011 14:03 taintmachine wrote: i think it's likely that foreign players, not having people like boxer or many of the other former BW pros as coaches and/or teammates, will continue to fall behind the korean scene (there are many other things korean sc2 players have going for them) until a solid system, one that can rival korea's, is in place for practicing and coaching.
...A lot of players are on teams with these magical systems. Maybe not without coaches but they sure seem to be doing a good job without them.
I'm a big supporter of competition. Bringing over top Korean players forces people to work harder, to be more innovative, etc. Stifling competition in trying to protect the foreigner scene just hurts it competitively.
On June 17 2011 13:31 dizzy101 wrote: Stopped reading at the equation. Who the @#$ knows what C or G or I means? Why make this stuff more complicated than it is? Explaining requires making things simpler, not harder.
It's meaningless jargon to try and make him sound more authoritative. Essentially it's saying that money earned should be used to re-invest in itself and make even more money, but that's a faulty line of reasoning considering people who get tournament winnings don't take that money and re-invest in esports.
I don't use fancy charts and equations to impress people and force my opinion on them, that's unproffessional. Hate journalists who manipulate that (not my preffession though, I mainly dabble in ecology/chemistry, so I know that you need to back your stuff up by concrete data, but enough about me). Whenever I fuck up, I do so because I was ignorant on certain parts (well, or all) of the subject.
I suppose it can be argued that it's not a self sustaining economy, but if you add the sponsors, the players and the teams, tournament organisers it starts looking more like it. Maybe. BUT I don't think you can argue that koreans taking prize money off of NASL, MLG, whatever-else-LG does not help foreign players sustain themselves (a good soldier is a soldier with a full belly - or something like that). So there is at least some sort of a negative impact to foreign scene caused by Korean scene and it's just an interesting aspect. Now if there's more pro's than cons is an entirely different matter. I only went into one side of it.
Simple thing that CatZ is saying: we need domestic as well as international competitions.
Not a korean hater, by the way. I like watching IdrA vs the world as anyone else does. Again, this argument is purely about managment of (Starcraft) eSports, kind of left vs right wing politics, protectionarism vs free market. No hate.
P.S. I didn't go into full explanation of what each letter means as I didn't find the rest as relevant, but here's the full formula and symbol meanings.
GDP (Y) is a sum of Consumption (C), Investment (I), Government Spending (G) and Net Exports (X - M).
On June 17 2011 14:03 taintmachine wrote: i don't agree with the idea that being inclusive is the best way of growing the NA scene or the broader foreign scene.
i do think catz's PoV is more realistic than the "hurrr im just going to get better and that's that" PoV some of you are giving. remember, catz is speaking as a player and, at the time, a team leader. he's not a tournament manager or spectator/casual/amateur/whatever. foreign teams are trying to copy both the korean infrastructure (living arrangements and sponsors) and the practicing style. if the korean scene grew from within without having to face down farther advanced players in a completely different region, then it does make sense that strictly growing from within would be a viable way to make the NA/foreign player scene strong(er).
i think it's likely that foreign players, not having people like boxer or many of the other former BW pros as coaches and/or teammates, will continue to fall behind the korean scene (there are many other things korean sc2 players have going for them) until a solid system, one that can rival korea's, is in place for practicing and coaching.
It worked for Korea because they were already ahead and leading.
I still think 'prohouse' is not necessary in SC2 scene. this is not BW. There is no latency difference whether you are in team house or not.
Poltprime,Nestea,Mvp,Excrement etc.. so many Top tier Koreans live in their own house and doing great job. Mvp,Nestea? they are even the best of best player in da world.
On June 17 2011 14:03 taintmachine wrote: i think it's likely that foreign players, not having people like boxer or many of the other former BW pros as coaches and/or teammates, will continue to fall behind the korean scene (there are many other things korean sc2 players have going for them) until a solid system, one that can rival korea's, is in place for practicing and coaching.
...A lot of players are on teams with these magical systems. Maybe not without coaches but they sure seem to be doing a good job without them.
TSL3 MLG: IdrA Today, NASL.
4 koreans enter MLG columbus with hundreds of foreigners present (dozens of top foreigners), and 3 take the top 3 spots. idra trained in korea and placed behind them. the koreans won the gsl world tournament. koreans are doing very well in the nasl, despite obvious latency issues, but yea, they didn't do as well in the tsl.
On June 17 2011 13:31 dizzy101 wrote: Stopped reading at the equation. Who the @#$ knows what C or G or I means? Why make this stuff more complicated than it is? Explaining requires making things simpler, not harder.
It's meaningless jargon to try and make him sound more authoritative. Essentially it's saying that money earned should be used to re-invest in itself and make even more money, but that's a faulty line of reasoning considering people who get tournament winnings don't take that money and re-invest in esports.
I don't use fancy charts and equations to impress people and force my opinion on them, that's unproffessional. Hate journalists who manipulate that (not my preffession though, I mainly dabble in ecology/chemistry, so I know that you need to back your stuff up by concrete data, but enough about me). Whenever I fuck up, I do so because I was ignorant on certain parts (well, or all) of the subject.
I suppose it can be argued that it's not a self sustaining economy, but if you add the sponsors, the players and the teams, tournament organisers it starts looking more like it. Maybe. BUT I don't think you can argue that koreans taking prize money off of NASL, MLG, whatever-else-LG does not help foreign players sustain themselves (a good soldier is a soldier with a full belly - or something like that). So there is at least some sort of a negative impact to foreign scene caused by Korean scene and it's just an interesting aspect. Now if there's more pro's than cons is an entirely different matter. I only went into one side of it.
Simple thing that CatZ is saying: we need domestic as well as international competitions.
Not a korean hater, by the way. I like watching IdrA vs the world as anyone else does. Again, this argument is purely about managment of (Starcraft) eSports, kind of left vs right wing politics, protectionarism vs free market. No hate.
P.S. I didn't go into full explanation of what each letter means as I didn't find the rest as relevant, but here's the full formula and symbol meanings.
GDP (Y) is a sum of Consumption (C), Investment (I), Government Spending (G) and Net Exports (X - M).
Y = C + I + G + (X − M)
Well many has already pointed out, based on the current status, a domestic compeitions wouldn't draw enough viewers and sponsors to fill the belly, you're imagining what if those money in your hand when it wouldn't even exists in the first place.
Yeah. Fucking Korean pro houses. That's the reason why Flash got so good. Because he was in a pro house right?
Never said that's why Flash got so good.
No. It was HARD WORK. And if it's a matter of time PLENTY of foreign players RIGHT NOW are doing it full time as well so that's NO EXCUSE.
A pro house can make getting that HARD WORK in a little more practical than it is trying to do it on your own. A little more convenience.
I'm sure PLENTY of foreign players RIGHT NOW are doing it full time and yet they are still losing en masse to Koreans and you can see the difference in the mechanics and metagaming.
There are PLENTY of foreigners who have just as much potential as any Korean player, just as much talent, just as much craving for knowledge of the game, but what I am saying is that being able to live in a place where you can dedicate yourself to turning that talent into skill and acquiring that knowledge without having to worry about pretty much any other concerns is a luxury that does give benefits that a lot of top foreigners can't get that way, they have to find other ways to do it, and from the results of tournaments it seems that they still have some work to do.
If getting better is a matter of time spent playing to acquire knowledge of the game and improving brain-eye-hand coordination to implement that knowledge, obviously being in a pro house will usually provide more benefit than not being in one. You can put all your focus on SC2. You can't do that outside a pro house right now, it seems like.
On June 17 2011 13:02 toastnbutter wrote: i think some of you guys are bashing catz for the wrong reasons. this is what i take away from catz's thoughts:
he just wants to see the foreign e-sports scene to become more fully developed first in their respective regions. and by that i mean for e-sports to eventually become a legitimate competition in the eyes of a John Smith who would otherwise hear the word "e-sports" and go "wtf is that?".
let's take professional soccer or basketball or any other major sport as an example. each country has their own developed leagues for such sports. and within each of those leagues are their own teams who compete amongst each other. and once in a while there are prestigious global events where these leagues compete against one another for a World Title (example: Olympics, etc.)
i think catz just means that he would like to see the foregin e-sport scenes to develop nicely on their own and catch up tp the developed Korean scene before they try to compete together. that's not to say that if a Korean player wanted to come to MLG they can't...they most certainly are welcome to come over to compete. however, it'd be better for the foreign scene if these players decided they wanted to compete by living in the foreign scene. (example: Yao Ming of the NBA)
that's just my take on CatZ's ideas. im not agreeing or disagreeing with him, i just feel like people are bashing his thoughts for no reason or bashing him because they are misunderstanding the points being made.
now there is a historical romanticism involved in pro-gaming. "warriors" that conquered their way through just with their sheer will and their thruthful 12$ dell mouse. what does make for a great story is inapplicable for real life. history has the tendendy to repeat itself. we have seen countless of games being at the brink and beyond. as much as everybody wants to believe, SC2 is nowhere near a "safe state". for all we know this shit could be over by the next recession. .
Except that's exactly how pro-gaming works? Did you even watch/read the interviews of any of the GSL winners/runner ups? Fruitdealer and MKP both said their families looked down on their hobby and they had to play in secret until they actually got far in the tourney to be proud of it. That's fairly rags to riches.
And that is how things should be?
On June 17 2011 14:02 Ocedic wrote:Also, there is no hypothetical 'super tournament' as you mentioned, not even the GSL. If it were, then MLG and Dreamhack wouldn't be as popular as they are. The reality of it is that the foreign scene is fairly strong:
1) Economically, the foreign scene is LARGER than the Korean scene. It is a well known complaint amongst Korean players that they don't have ENOUGH tournaments because of GOM's contract monopoly.
2) Skill-wise, Europe is not far from Korea. MMA himself said Thorzain would do well in GSL, and Thorzain + Naniwa will be going to Korea to compete. The only region that is far behind is North America. So if you want to complain about Korea from a NA perspective, you might as well bitch about Europeans coming and 'ruining' the NA scene as well.
Because if you look at tournament results, Europeans have consistently dominated North American players. Yet you don't see Catz whining about Europeans, probably because him and people like you want to create an 'Us vs Them' mentality amongst the Western scene, when in reality it's just North America that is struggling in terms of skilled players.
Granted, I may have to specify my argument. I for one couldn't care less for who actually wins stuff. I was only chiming in on Catz's general baseline of "there should be more in-between". Whether or not this is already the case is debatable. As tiresome as it is, traditional sports again: The time where the US basically was Basketball, and this discpline was non-existant everywhere else. It took an awful lot of time and developtment to produce the foreign players that have become less and less "anomalies" in the NBA. That have managed to cross the pond. Now did these wake up one day, decided to train hard in their own backyard and buy a one-way ticket?
No, they went through a sophisticated system, allowing them taking one step at a time. A system that in itself was sustainable. Nowitzki wouldn't be where he is today, without the system already in place when he grew up here in Germany.
My personal criticism with this is simple, it's utopia still. SC2 is not on that level yet and Catz''s generation of players may never experience it (let alone poor Boxer). It shouldn't stop you from considering that throwing money/numbers/hype at the problem may not be what increases the chances of SC2 in the long run.
I have to say i agree with CatZ and OPs arguments. To me online qualifiers are not fair. Its all about commitment. I am pretty much sure koreans players are laughing so hard inside...
You have to go to korea to play in the GSL (or even to try to qualify) and they would not change that. Why? because they want to protect their money.
and online games have something boring to me... but thats something else i guess.
anyways, here is my hint of a solution : Put up two booths in the NASL studios.
On June 17 2011 13:31 dizzy101 wrote: Stopped reading at the equation. Who the @#$ knows what C or G or I means? Why make this stuff more complicated than it is? Explaining requires making things simpler, not harder.
It's meaningless jargon to try and make him sound more authoritative. Essentially it's saying that money earned should be used to re-invest in itself and make even more money, but that's a faulty line of reasoning considering people who get tournament winnings don't take that money and re-invest in esports.
I don't use fancy charts and equations to impress people and force my opinion on them, that's unproffessional. Hate journalists who manipulate that (not my preffession though, I mainly dabble in ecology/chemistry, so I know that you need to back your stuff up by concrete data, but enough about me). Whenever I fuck up, I do so because I was ignorant on certain parts (well, or all) of the subject.
I suppose it can be argued that it's not a self sustaining economy, but if you add the sponsors, the players and the teams, tournament organisers it starts looking more like it. Maybe. BUT I don't think you can argue that koreans taking prize money off of NASL, MLG, whatever-else-LG does not help foreign players sustain themselves (a good soldier is a soldier with a full belly - or something like that). So there is at least some sort of a negative impact to foreign scene caused by Korean scene and it's just an interesting aspect. Now if there's more pro's than cons is an entirely different matter. I only went into one side of it.
Simple thing that CatZ is saying: we need domestic as well as international competitions.
Not a korean hater, by the way. I like watching IdrA vs the world as anyone else does. Again, this argument is purely about managment of (Starcraft) eSports, kind of left vs right wing politics, protectionarism vs free market. No hate.
P.S. I didn't go into full explanation of what each letter means as I didn't find the rest as relevant, but here's the full formula and symbol meanings.
GDP (Y) is a sum of Consumption (C), Investment (I), Government Spending (G) and Net Exports (X - M).
Y = C + I + G + (X − M)
I like how you tell us how you're this smart ecology/chemistry scientist who loves to provide concrete evidence and not give meaningless metaphors and rhetorical devices. Because I never would have known that until you told me. Enough about you.
...Tournament money has NO affect on the tournaments themselves since they're already giving it away. It doesn't matter who.
And it's very easy for you to "preffessionally" say that esports is like a country's gross domestic product. That there just HAS to be "at last some sort of a negative impact to foreign scene that's an interesting aspect" is not an argument.
And... no. It's we need to be sheltered from international competition. I think. CatZ isn't exactly giving us an exceptionally clear viewpoint.
Gee, thanks for telling us that you don't hate Koreans. That it's just about how we, the Western eSports world, need to be protected from the Koreans. And how it's just like politics (what?). No hate.
AND WHY DID YOU COMPARE IT SPECIFICALLY TO GDP IF YOU ONLY FOUND 1 PART OF IT TO BE RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION?! Don't drop names of important economic indicators to help your argument.
pathetic, embarrassing. play to be the best, to prove to yourself, play because you want to compete and your a competitive person and want to be the best, don't lockout certain populations to give yourself motivation or make it easy for you. look up the word "competitor", and anyone who has ever accomplished anything great would only want to play and compete with the best. people who make history don't run from the competition, they want it, they salivate to play with the best, to beat the best of the best! all the greatest achievements in history...
Whoever is impressed by the equation is an idiot, stop taking it as a insult or a try from the topic starter to subliminally control your thoughts and ruin your free will... who cares what forms of medium he uses to communicate his opinion on geez.
On the topic; Does anybody really care that much? I love the growth of e-sports but it'll grow as it will, not much to it, Catz has some good ideas but I don't agree with him. On that note; Westerners need to practice more and do other shit/care less... seriously we don't hear any SlayerS/oGs people cry or whine or moam about anything whilst westerners can find no fucking end to their constant whining about balance, koreans, competition and whatnot... just play the godamn game and win.
On June 17 2011 14:27 UnderWorld_Dream wrote: I have to say i agree with CatZ and OPs arguments. To me online qualifiers are not fair. Its all about commitment. I am pretty much sure koreans players are laughing so hard inside...
You have to go to korea to play in the GSL (or even to try to qualify) and they would not change that. Why? because they want to protect their money.
and online games have something boring to me... but thats something else i guess.
anyways, here is my hint of a solution : Put up two booths in the NASL studios.
On June 17 2011 14:25 DeepElemBlues wrote: Never said that's why Flash got so good.
A pro house can make getting that HARD WORK in a little more practical than it is trying to do it on your own. A little more convenience.
I'm sure PLENTY of foreign players RIGHT NOW are doing it full time and yet they are still losing en masse to Koreans and you can see the difference in the mechanics and metagaming.
There are PLENTY of foreigners who have just as much potential as any Korean player, just as much talent, just as much craving for knowledge of the game, but what I am saying is that being able to live in a place where you can dedicate yourself to turning that talent into skill and acquiring that knowledge without having to worry about pretty much any other concerns is a luxury that does give benefits that a lot of top foreigners can't get that way, they have to find other ways to do it, and from the results of tournaments it seems that they still have some work to do.
If getting better is a matter of time spent playing to acquire knowledge of the game and improving brain-eye-hand coordination to implement that knowledge, obviously being in a pro house will usually provide more benefit than not being in one. You can put all your focus on SC2. You can't do that outside a pro house right now, it seems like.
Also I don't get the CAPS.
You made a point about time. So I explained that there is no problem with "time" and it's availability.
You're making it sound like foreigners don't have pro houses, don't have teams, or any support at all. That that's what the game comes down to. Whether or not you practiced in a pro house or not.
On June 17 2011 14:27 UnderWorld_Dream wrote: I have to say i agree with CatZ and OPs arguments. To me online qualifiers are not fair. Its all about commitment. I am pretty much sure koreans players are laughing so hard inside...
You have to go to korea to play in the GSL (or even to try to qualify) and they would not change that. Why? because they want to protect their money.
and online games have something boring to me... but thats something else i guess.
anyways, here is my hint of a solution : Put up two booths in the NASL studios.
-_-
dumbest thing I've ever heard.
So seriously dumb,what made him think of that man,,,,and whats abouth the booth all of a sudden
There should be all kinds of tournaments and leagues - local and global. If NASL or MLG want to be global, they will have Koreans. It simply means they should be looked at as WCG, or whatever, important global championships. Meanwhile, each continent, and each major country, should also have important competitions that are only for residents and people who come there to compete (not being paid to come). Then a foreigner who's still not at the level of Koreans can just concentrate on those local competitions, until he gets good enough to crush Koreans in the global events.
The only reason he is QQ'ing is because the two biggest online tournaments were based out of the US, and he is afraid that non-US players get to compete without committing to moving over to the US.
Start the online EUSL, put up a 100K prize pool, then by his logic, he shouldn't be wanting to compete in the EUSL because he would be taking money away from the EU scene. Or shit, even pretend that there's a 100K online GSL based out of the Korean servers. Is he going to not try his hardest to compete in that tournament?
For those that are arguing that Esports makes money from their viewerbase, I feel you are missing the point of this thread. Yes it helps the viewership to bring the best players from all over the world to play in the tournament, but it does not help any of the players themselves.
Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?
It's admittedly quite exciting to watch your favourite korean players dominating in these big tournaments, but we have to remember that behind every winner there are umpteen more losers, and how fun is it really to watch . And when it is so convenient and easy for the best players (who happen to be koreans for SC2) in the world to casually join any of these tournament (its free, essentially), they will not hesitate to take up the opportunity and they will win. The chances of you winning despite all the effort you put in are slim to nothing if you are consistently facing these players no matter how big or small the tournament is. So given this would you make a living working 8+ hours a day if you had a 0.1% chance (and for most players we're being generous here) of earning more than a bare wage that you can't live off?
It's like an amateur mountain climber attempting to climb Everest, this is why Divisions are necessary. This is why when you ladder you aren't instantly paired with IdrA or KiWiKaKi, they are too far up in skill for you to have even the slightest chance of winning by more than accident. It would be hugely unmotivating and would not help you learn at all because anything you did right, would be entirely overshadowed by what you did wrong (which may not even be much but enough for the best players to beat you). There's a reason you don't start school at university doing a PhD, students need the appropriate environment to progress in, one that is above their level but only so much as that they can be challenged.
With this said I do believe there should still be some global leagues held in America, Europe and all over, but these should not be the only leagues giving a pay out to pro gamers. Local and national leagues need to exist like in every other sport so that up and coming players have a healthy environment to train while making a sustainable wage in winning tournaments that they can win, so that they don't spend 8+ hours a day training for nothing.
please point to an example where all the tournaments are being invaded by koreans because I only see the major tournaments with large prize money being attended by them
the only reason they're a MAJOR tournament to begin with is because they include the highest level of competition
if Catz wants an easy road then I'm sure there's a ton of amateur tournaments going around with 500 dollar prize pools
if he wants the NASL and it's large prize pool to somehow be able to maintain its viewership while being a joke competitively then good luck trying to accomplish that. The american scene will not grow that way. We can also probably expect MLG to raise its prize pool in the future if its success keeps up
On June 17 2011 14:49 XenoX101 wrote: For those that are arguing that Esports makes money from their viewerbase, I feel you are missing the point of this thread. Yes it helps the viewership to bring the best players from all over the world to play in the tournament, but it does not help any of the players themselves.
Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?
It's admittedly quite exciting to watch your favourite korean players dominating in these big tournaments, but we have to remember that behind every winner there are umpteen more losers, and how fun is it really to watch . And when it is so convenient and easy for the best players (who happen to be koreans for SC2) in the world to casually join any of these tournament (its free, essentially), they will not hesitate to take up the opportunity and they will win. The chances of you winning despite all the effort you put in are slim to nothing if you are consistently facing these players no matter how big or small the tournament is. So given this would you make a living working 8+ hours a day if you had a 0.1% chance (and for most players we're being generous here) of earning more than a bare wage that you can't live off?
It's like an amateur mountain climber attempting to climb Everest, this is why Divisions are necessary. This is why when you ladder you aren't instantly paired with IdrA or KiWiKaKi, they are too far up in skill for you to have even the slightest chance of winning by more than accident. It would be hugely unmotivating and would not help you learn at all because anything you did right, would be entirely overshadowed by what you did wrong (which may not even be much but enough for the best players to beat you). There's a reason you don't start school at university doing a PhD, students need the appropriate environment to progress in, one that is above their level but only so much as that they can be challenged.
With this said I do believe there should still be some global leagues held in America, Europe and all over, but these should not be the only leagues giving a pay out to pro gamers. Local and national leagues need to exist like in every other sport so that up and coming players have a healthy environment to train while making a sustainable wage in winning tournaments that they can win, so that they don't spend 8+ hours a day training for nothing.
It seems like you missed the point, actually. Okay, yes divisions are necessarily. So when was the last time you watched a gold league tourney only? (-and yes, those occurred quite a bit for a while, not sure if they're still around.)
Fact is I probably would not have watched the last MLG if there were no Koreans, certainly if there were no Koreans OR Europeans. I never watch NASL on days without Koreans or really good European players.
The only argument I see from you is that entering tournaments for Koreans is 'essentially free,' which is just false. There's visa issues, flight costs and lodging costs just like any other travel. There's a reason why Bomber couldn't make it to the last MLG. If you think Koreans will be entering every small regional tournament in the US, then you're just mistaken. And if they do, then they vastly increase the exposure of that tournament.
Either way, you've failed to establish any correlation between who wins what causing any negative effect on the scene itself.
Catz arguments are bullshit because he considers (rightly, if you are a pro-gamer) prizes are a form of revenue, when they are actually are a cost for the organizers. Revenues in this activity comes from two sources: ads (and therefore, sponsoring) and pay-per-view. In both cases, your revenue is going to be linked to your viewership. Question is: are you going to get a sustainable viewership for NA-only tournaments?Answer is probably not, people will just change the channel looking for better games, the same way i change the stream channel when Catz starts playing because i know he's bad.
OK, the most amusing answer, and according to him "easy one", is the one he gave for the comment that he is racist. So he is Peruvian, and that is his answer?
It's pathetic really. Call it racist or xenophobic, but the point is valid. There are strong Koreans, and he is butthurt about it. No explanation.
On June 17 2011 14:59 legaton wrote: Catz arguments are bullshit because he considers (rightly, if you are a pro-gamer) prizes are a form of revenue, when they are actually are a cost for the organizers.
A cost for the organizers, you answered your own argument.
On June 17 2011 14:49 XenoX101 wrote: For those that are arguing that Esports makes money from their viewerbase, I feel you are missing the point of this thread. Yes it helps the viewership to bring the best players from all over the world to play in the tournament, but it does not help any of the players themselves.
Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?
It's admittedly quite exciting to watch your favourite korean players dominating in these big tournaments, but we have to remember that behind every winner there are umpteen more losers, and how fun is it really to watch . And when it is so convenient and easy for the best players (who happen to be koreans for SC2) in the world to casually join any of these tournament (its free, essentially), they will not hesitate to take up the opportunity and they will win. The chances of you winning despite all the effort you put in are slim to nothing if you are consistently facing these players no matter how big or small the tournament is. So given this would you make a living working 8+ hours a day if you had a 0.1% chance (and for most players we're being generous here) of earning more than a bare wage that you can't live off?
It's like an amateur mountain climber attempting to climb Everest, this is why Divisions are necessary. This is why when you ladder you aren't instantly paired with IdrA or KiWiKaKi, they are too far up in skill for you to have even the slightest chance of winning by more than accident. It would be hugely unmotivating and would not help you learn at all because anything you did right, would be entirely overshadowed by what you did wrong (which may not even be much but enough for the best players to beat you). There's a reason you don't start school at university doing a PhD, students need the appropriate environment to progress in, one that is above their level but only so much as that they can be challenged.
With this said I do believe there should still be some global leagues held in America, Europe and all over, but these should not be the only leagues giving a pay out to pro gamers. Local and national leagues need to exist like in every other sport so that up and coming players have a healthy environment to train while making a sustainable wage in winning tournaments that they can win, so that they don't spend 8+ hours a day training for nothing.
We're just pointing out the fact how this world runs. Reason there are schools and universities is because everyone understood the importance of educations. The fees you pay doesn't cover the cost at all, governament funded the rest. If you can convince sponsors to throw money away then go ahead, because esport is part of entertainment industry and aren't as important as something like education.
There are plenty of random online tournaments that he can participate, but asking for something as big as NASL in terms of prize pool just unrealistic right now.
On June 17 2011 14:57 Itsmedudeman wrote: please point to an example where all the tournaments are being invaded by koreans because I only see the major tournaments with large prize money being attended by them
the only reason they're a MAJOR tournament to begin with is because they include the highest level of competition
if Catz wants an easy road then I'm sure there's a ton of amateur tournaments going around with 500 dollar prize pools
if he wants the NASL and it's large prize pool to somehow be able to maintain its viewership while being a joke competitively then good luck trying to accomplish that. We can also probably expect MLG to raise its prize pool in the future if its success keeps up
It's about the big picture. It is about everything what is still wrong with esports in general. The mentality and attention span. Do you go to your highschool team and tell them face to face that they are "taking the easy road" and why they don't compete in the olympics?
Thank you, OP, for clarifying this dense, complicated and mysterious interview that was so shrouded in hidden meanings. None of us could have had a chance to understand its subtle intricacies without your help.
Paolo is saying that the prize money should stay and circulate in the foreign Starcraft scene
I'll concede that your knowledge of economics is unquestionably higher than mine, however, book smarts breaks when pressure is applied and logic when combined with reason bends like a sleek ninja.
The prize money from tournaments like the NASL will not circulate back into the 'scene' unless the winner donates the money to host tournaments which is highly unlikely. If the winner of said tournament were to host another tournament with his prize money you're just moving the money around which is good for esports, but the winners of the tournaments need compensation for their time and everyone has bills to pay and possessions they would like to acquire.
On June 17 2011 12:07 Rekrul wrote: He's not being racist he's just being dumb. If you want to compete with the Koreans get better, simple as that.
Rekrul is absolutely correct and I'd like to add that the major disconnects between the skill levels of Korean and Foreigners in BW was ASTRONOMICAL compared to sc2.
Denying Koreans the ability to play in "foreigner" tournaments will do nothing but make the foreign scene weaker which hurts the viewership.
Iron sharpens Iron. If you want to get good you need to be playing against the highest skilled players you can get games against. If you want the $$ then earn it.
TLDR: I think Catz is right. SC2 doesn't just need the big name competitions, it needs regional leagues too (minor leagues, if you will), so less skilled players can get their friends interested in competitive gaming. Also, having local players allows regional-based rivalries to form, which is the best way to get average shmucks to care.
-=-
I think the analogy to professional sports is spot on. What would dramatically improve popularity and overall skill level would be regional minor leagues or tournaments. The obvious way to organize these would be people in gaming cafes putting together tournaments for the other people who play there. Unfortunately, gaming cafes are much less common and less populated than in Korea, so there isn't this amateur base to work from.
I think a lot of people are ignoring the impact that smaller, less competitive leagues could have. A lot of people don't watch their city's sports teams religiously, but most parents watch nearly every single one of their kid's soccer games. School team games bring out not only parents but also friends and other kids from the school. Sure, the players aren't anywhere near as skilled as the professionals, but the spectators can feel like they are personally invested in the game. Having been drawn to the sport because of a personal connection, they are more likely to develop an interest in the sport by itself.
Let me ask you this: do you personally know any professional basketball players? If not, do you know any people who played basketball in high school, or in pickup games? I suspect a lot more people will answer yes to the second question than the first, and I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption. The last question is: if you answered no to question 1 and yes to question 2, has that person ever talked to you about basketball, or asked you to watch a game with them?
That's the way sports really grow in popularity. Not by having incredibly skilled professionals performing superhuman feats, but by small amateur communities forming that grow organically. For example, nobody is going to view chess-boxing as anything more than an oddity unless they know (and respect) someone doing it.
I firmly believe that SC2 can't just be a one-tier competition (i.e. professional or not). If you don't believe me, ask blizzard. Do they throw every player into one big league and say "get better if you want to win?" No, they've divided the players by overall skill and then subdivided them into divisions of 100 people. Once a player is placed correctly, they have a goal that is actually reachable: play better than 99 other players of roughly the same skill to achieve rank 1 of their division. I think that's actually a really good idea with one glaring flaw, which is that blizzard gives you no reason to care other than the number. You don't know any of the people in your division, you never talk to them, and it's rare that you would ever play against them. Battlenet is horrible at drawing you into anything resembling a community, so the only interaction you have with your division mates is watching numbers go up and down.
For esports to really take off, there need to be REAL communities. If gaming cafes were as popular here as they are in korea they could offer regular small-prize tournaments where the competitors could actually meet each other, from which the winners could go on to compete in regional competitions. In some cities this might actually be feasible, but it would take a lot of grassroots effort to really get going. For myself, I'm thinking about starting an inter-departmental league at my university next year.
edit: While I was writing this someone posted asking the question "would you ever watch a gold-level tournament?" My answer is "Yes, if I knew someone playing in it."
On June 17 2011 14:49 XenoX101 wrote: For those that are arguing that Esports makes money from their viewerbase, I feel you are missing the point of this thread. Yes it helps the viewership to bring the best players from all over the world to play in the tournament, but it does not help any of the players themselves.
Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?
It's admittedly quite exciting to watch your favourite korean players dominating in these big tournaments, but we have to remember that behind every winner there are umpteen more losers, and how fun is it really to watch . And when it is so convenient and easy for the best players (who happen to be koreans for SC2) in the world to casually join any of these tournament (its free, essentially), they will not hesitate to take up the opportunity and they will win. The chances of you winning despite all the effort you put in are slim to nothing if you are consistently facing these players no matter how big or small the tournament is. So given this would you make a living working 8+ hours a day if you had a 0.1% chance (and for most players we're being generous here) of earning more than a bare wage that you can't live off?
It's like an amateur mountain climber attempting to climb Everest, this is why Divisions are necessary. This is why when you ladder you aren't instantly paired with IdrA or KiWiKaKi, they are too far up in skill for you to have even the slightest chance of winning by more than accident. It would be hugely unmotivating and would not help you learn at all because anything you did right, would be entirely overshadowed by what you did wrong (which may not even be much but enough for the best players to beat you). There's a reason you don't start school at university doing a PhD, students need the appropriate environment to progress in, one that is above their level but only so much as that they can be challenged.
With this said I do believe there should still be some global leagues held in America, Europe and all over, but these should not be the only leagues giving a pay out to pro gamers. Local and national leagues need to exist like in every other sport so that up and coming players have a healthy environment to train while making a sustainable wage in winning tournaments that they can win, so that they don't spend 8+ hours a day training for nothing.
There are hundreds if not thousands of koreans that spend time practicing but never ever see code a. Should they get access to a large prize pool in a separate tournament from everyone that made it into gsl to create some parity for the have nots? Every sport has a good chunk of players that are just good enough to be pro but not good enough to be at the top in every tournament they enter. Hell some just bomb out entirely. It's just a reality and it's ok. Barring koreans from a tournament won't matter much to sponsors. They'll give them money to play elsewhere in more prestigious "global" tournaments regardless.
On June 17 2011 15:09 Aleph One wrote: TLDR: I think Catz is right. SC2 doesn't just need the big name competitions, it needs regional leagues too (minor leagues, if you will), so less skilled players can get their friends interested in competitive gaming. Also, having local players allows regional-based rivalries to form, which is the best way to get average shmucks to care.
-=-
I think the analogy to professional sports is spot on. What would dramatically improve popularity and overall skill level would be regional minor leagues or tournaments. The obvious way to organize these would be people in gaming cafes putting together tournaments for the other people who play there. Unfortunately, gaming cafes are much less common and less populated than in Korea, so there isn't this amateur base to work from.
I think a lot of people are ignoring the impact that smaller, less competitive leagues could have. A lot of people don't watch their city's sports teams religiously, but most parents watch nearly every single one of their kid's soccer games. School team games bring out not only parents but also friends and other kids from the school. Sure, the players aren't anywhere near as skilled as the professionals, but the spectators can feel like they are personally invested in the game. Having been drawn to the sport because of a personal connection, they are more likely to develop an interest in the sport by itself.
Let me ask you this: do you personally know any professional basketball players? If not, do you know any people who played basketball in high school, or in pickup games? I suspect a lot more people will answer yes to the second question than the first, and I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption. The last question is: if you answered no to question 1 and yes to question 2, has that person ever talked to you about basketball, or asked you to watch a game with them?
That's the way sports really grow in popularity. Not by having incredibly skilled professionals performing superhuman feats, but by small amateur communities forming that grow organically. For example, nobody is going to view chess-boxing as anything more than an oddity unless they know (and respect) someone doing it.
I firmly believe that SC2 can't just be a one-tier competition (i.e. professional or not). If you don't believe me, ask blizzard. Do they throw every player into one big league and say "get better if you want to win?" No, they've divided the players by overall skill and then subdivided them into divisions of 100 people. Once a player is placed correctly, they have a goal that is actually reachable: play better than 99 other players of roughly the same skill to achieve rank 1 of their division. I think that's actually a really good idea with one glaring flaw, which is that blizzard gives you no reason to care other than the number. You don't know any of the people in your division, you never talk to them, and it's rare that you would ever play against them. Battlenet is horrible at drawing you into anything resembling a community, so the only interaction you have with your division mates is watching numbers go up and down.
For esports to really take off, there need to be REAL communities. If gaming cafes were as popular here as they are in korea they could offer regular small-prize tournaments where the competitors could actually meet each other, from which the winners could go on to compete in regional competitions. In some cities this might actually be feasible, but it would take a lot of grassroots effort to really get going. For myself, I'm thinking about starting an inter-departmental league at my university next year.
That's fine and good to say, but is completely unrelated to the current tournament situation. You're basically saying ESPORTS can expand by having MORE tournaments. Well... no shit? That's the whole point of expanding ESPORTs? It's easy to say that: so go do something about it.
You want a regional competition in your area? Then start one. Most of us enjoy having the 'big competitions' to watch. In fact, we want MORE. The players want MORE. It's too bad we live in a world where wishing for more didn't equate to the problem getting solved. Sitting around whining about the lack of tournaments is easy, how about try contributing and fixing the problem instead of whining about things beyond the control of others?
when you choose the path of sports, you choose a dificult and uncertain path, no matter how popular is the sport many people is facing now a uncertain future to reach the dream.
if you really dream of being a professional Starcraft player or football you need to know that doesnt exist anywhere in the world that it will become a fact.
i think we only need focus on the how to bring more people to watch Starcraft, this is the only way to grown the e-sport.
this is my opinion, i know my opinion can be wrong, but this is how i see at the moment the things.
On June 17 2011 14:57 Itsmedudeman wrote: please point to an example where all the tournaments are being invaded by koreans because I only see the major tournaments with large prize money being attended by them
the only reason they're a MAJOR tournament to begin with is because they include the highest level of competition
if Catz wants an easy road then I'm sure there's a ton of amateur tournaments going around with 500 dollar prize pools
if he wants the NASL and it's large prize pool to somehow be able to maintain its viewership while being a joke competitively then good luck trying to accomplish that. We can also probably expect MLG to raise its prize pool in the future if its success keeps up
It's about the big picture. It is about everything what is still wrong with esports in general. The mentality and attention span. Do you go to your highschool team and tell them face to face that they are "taking the easy road" and why they don't compete in the olympics?
what kind of stupid example is this? they don't go to the olympics because they can't, it's not analogous at all
the big picture? here's the big picture, there's TONS of smaller tournaments going on while bigger tournaments are growing and growing, and they're big because there's more competition. Without international invites they'd be small and have smaller prize pools and the scene will be composed of just small tournaments, what more is there to say?
As Spunky put it, where's the pride in being the best foreigner? It is a meaningless title. If you want to play StarCraft II professionally then you have to strive to be the very best amogst ALL pro-gamers, not just the foreigners. If you want the foreign E-sports scene to grow then you need the very best competition. Sure western pro-gamers might make more money if all their big tournaments were limited to people in the NA region since they would receive the prize money but at that point who would care about the NA scene? Being the best in NA would mean nothing if the best still got dominated by players from EU and KR. Fans would watch those scenes instead and eventually we would just be watching Koreans all over again.
All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
It's about the big picture. It is about everything what is still wrong with esports in general. The mentality and attention span. Do you go to your highschool team and tell them face to face that they are "taking the easy road" and why they don't compete in the olympics?
It's more like all American and European countries complaining that Korea is participating in the Olympics because they always take the gold medals away and it discourages their own athletes so Korea should be barred from competing.
Well I kind of argee, what if LA lakers or Real Madrid would come to compete in finnish leagues every year? That would be very annoying and stupid, and make people not care about the sport. On the other hand, sport like this that hasnt any national organizations, nor should have, what can you really do?
It's about the big picture. It is about everything what is still wrong with esports in general. The mentality and attention span. Do you go to your highschool team and tell them face to face that they are "taking the easy road" and why they don't compete in the olympics?
It's more like all American and European countries complaining that Korea is participating in the Olympics because they always take the gold medals away and it discourages their own athletes so Korea should be barred from competing.
Why does the US win most of the medals most of the time? The US spends the most money on its athletes. It has nothing to do with racism or anything, just money.
lol too many excuses for lack of ability = foreigners.
koreans are the best period, ppl want to watch the best. stop trying to compare yourselves to koreans who have been practising longer and harder than foreigners.
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
Plenty of the Korean teams didn't have good sponsors while they were starting out. In fact, a bunch of them probably still don't have player salaries. Players still dedicate all their time to practicing though and their work ethic is simply superior. There's nothing stopping the foreigners from having similar setups if they really wanted to.
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
Plenty of the Korean teams didn't have good sponsors while they were starting out. In fact, a bunch of them probably still don't have player salaries. Players still dedicate all their time to practicing though and their work ethic is simply superior. There's nothing stopping the foreigners from having similar setups if they really wanted to.
And the overall level of play during that period is nowhere near as strong as it is now.
Players join without salaries because there's the chance they'll become the next Flash, players in other countries have nothing like that to look forward to.
Compare the pro sports teams of different countries and you'll see that it works exactly the same way.
On June 17 2011 15:09 Aleph One wrote: TLDR: I think Catz is right. SC2 doesn't just need the big name competitions, it needs regional leagues too (minor leagues, if you will), so less skilled players can get their friends interested in competitive gaming. Also, having local players allows regional-based rivalries to form, which is the best way to get average shmucks to care.
Are you trolling? There are SO MANY tournaments available right now. Just take 60 seconds and go look at the upcoming events list.... so many things.... If you click on the SC2 Tournaments forums there are constantly new tournaments some of which are for players bronze to platinum only, female only, or anyone allowed regardless of their ranking.
As a BW player who was 'good' but never 'one of the best' I would have been all over the tournament scene when i was younger because there are tournaments every other day it seems.
Sadly i'm an old man and have to work for a living, but I think the tournament scene is a royal feast compared to any other game in any other time period.
As far as rivalries go.... Zenio and IdrA..... MC and IdrA..... IdrA and _____.... Players make rivalries and it doesn't matter if they are from Korea or Antarctica. It only takes one player choosing to create a rivalry for there to be one. IdrA is pretty good at this if you haven't noticed.
All-in-all i want to watch the BEST players play regardless of the flag they bare. By shutting out all Koreans you not only make the foreigner scene weaker, you push people who like to see the game played to the fullest away. I realize we're the minority, but I also believe we're the most loyal and passionate.
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
Plenty of the Korean teams didn't have good sponsors while they were starting out. In fact, a bunch of them probably still don't have player salaries. Players still dedicate all their time to practicing though and their work ethic is simply superior. There's nothing stopping the foreigners from having similar setups if they really wanted to.
And the overall level of play during that period is nowhere near as strong as it is now.
Players join without salaries because there's the chance they'll become the next Flash, players in other countries have nothing like that to look forward to.
Compare the pro sports teams of different countries and you'll see that it works exactly the same way.
People are using the American model of sports teams and applying it to esports. Every player on the Chicago Bulls can feed his family. They all get paid because that's how big basketball is. They might not get the biggest cut, but they make enough to keep playing.
Esports doesn't have that to fall back on. Players who aren't winning tournaments still have bills to pay and 6 months ago there was a lot of people swapping teams because there was NO MONEY going to the players to allow them to play full time. I realize FXO has stepped up and been a solid team as have others, I'm guessing EG... anyways... it's apples and oranges.
1) A Korean style pro house means that youre living/breathing/doing Starcraft every day. It is easier to stay motivated, and persistent when you're put in that sort of team environment. 2) To get that team environment/house, you need money. The more that the "foreign" scene loses to Koreans in this early stage, the less justifiable it is to rent a house, widening the gap. 3) Imagine there is a local soccer tourney on. You've been training for months! You need the cash to buy more weights for the clubs gym, and more seating for your local venue, to invest intothe clubs future with ticket administration. You get to the sign-up board, and see that Spain have decided to fly over for the event. Without the investment in your club, you simply can't ever out-perform Sergio Ramos, David Villa, or Fernando Torres. You don't sign the form.
The fact is you MUST support roots level. I buy independantly released CDs before I buy the latest offering by The Foo Fighters. If you don't give fresh talent the chance, and the inspiration to grow, it won't.
I feel not only for Catz, but also the 13 year old watching the SC2 scene thinking "wow. Koreans have it covered. I need to be IdrA-good to even have a chance of winning money.... I'm not going to dedicate time and money. So much risk, for so little potential reward."
On June 17 2011 15:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:what kind of stupid example is this? they don't go to the olympics because they can't, it's not analogous at all
Of course they can. Just be good enough and get elected into the team. Because they are not on the olympic team, clearly they must suck, no? That's what you do by implying someone is "taking the easy route". Other's only see the need in necessary intermediate steps on the way to the top. That it is not sufficient to pour all attention, effort and money top-down. That this method may only last for so long.
Some specific tournament like NASL is not even the point of the whole topic anyway. Of course there are tons of tournaments. But the disparity is huge between the tiers. Some organizations like Complexity and VVV are already realizing it may be more intelligent to carve out a path all the way from the bottom, with their academy project.
Sparky said it best -- what's the point in talking about the best 'non-Korean'? The foreigner scene will become a joke if it's tournaments only showed "the best play... outside of Korea".
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
Plenty of the Korean teams didn't have good sponsors while they were starting out. In fact, a bunch of them probably still don't have player salaries. Players still dedicate all their time to practicing though and their work ethic is simply superior. There's nothing stopping the foreigners from having similar setups if they really wanted to.
And the overall level of play during that period is nowhere near as strong as it is now.
Players join without salaries because there's the chance they'll become the next Flash, players in other countries have nothing like that to look forward to.
Compare the pro sports teams of different countries and you'll see that it works exactly the same way.
Well obviously not, but they trained the same amount. Their hardwork is simply paying off now and they are getting better faster than the foreigners. That mindset is also why the foreigners aren't going to do as well. As Mr. Chae put it, it's not like the Koreans don't have to move away from their family and friends to live in a cramped apartment and play SCII all day. They're making extreme sacrifices with no guarantee. If the foreigners don't want to do that then they simply won't be as good. Foreigners have the chance to be the next Giyom (or whoever the big foreign BW players were, didn't follow).
Some people in this thread are way too idealistic to understand where catz is coming from. You need to understand why people do things. You could say for each action there's an incentive and a capability and each is worthless without the other. If I am incapable of doing something, it doesn't matter how great the incentive is. If I'm capable, it's still not worth doing if there's no incentive.
This is the binary example though, and things are never that black and white. So let's break it down from a starcraft perspective. I'll also note that capability in this instance really refers to ability to fulfill potential though practice, so opportunity cost is definitely brought into the picture from a player perspective.
Incentive Top Korean players are national figures that can reach stardom. Others can realistically make at least living salaries even if they don't make it big. What's missing from the foreign scene? Making it big. You tell an average person in a "foreign" country you play starcraft professionally, and you will get nothing but questions and blank stares. Starcraft players are not respected outside of the (relatively) small starcraft community in the their own countries.
So, while people in South Korea can play for pretige AND money, foreign players can mostly just play for money. Conclusion: Koreans are more incentivized to play starcraft than foreigners.
Capability Everyone here is familiar with a team house environment. Many players, a coach, and nothing but starcraft all day. A perfect way to raise skill. Foreigners can accomplish this too though right? Well of course! The problem? There is a huge piece of the equation missing! Unless done systemically these houses have little effect on overall skill. You're only as good as the people you play against and if you have the only team house and everyone else you know doesn't, perhaps you'll be marginally better than them... but that's it.
The point? Many team houses competing is a far better learning environment than a single isolated house. Conclusion: Koreans posses more capability to become good at starcraft.
So to recap, Korean players have both higher capability AND incentive when compared to foreign players. To convince players to sacrifice opportunity cost of other carreers, additional incentives must be added. One of the largest incentives for foreign players right now is prize money. If players with higher incentives and capabilities compete for the same prize money... guess who wins the prize money?
NOBODY is saying all Koreans should be banned from all foreign events. Instead, I leave a word of caution that their scene could "smother" ours and stunt its growth.
On June 17 2011 15:21 A3iL3r0n wrote: Why does the US win most of the medals most of the time? The US spends the most money on its athletes. It has nothing to do with racism or anything, just money.
one: that's not definitively accurate. two: money does not equal results. three: sports and esports are different areas of competition. three: EG is probably has the most income from all their various sponsors, but only IdrA (seems) to be doing well, and that was a result from the rigorous practice he puts on himself (and all the practice he put in BEFORE he joined EG). four: did i ever mention race? I only said COUNTRIES.
[B]On June 17 2011 15:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:what kind of stupid example is this? they don't go to the olympics because they can't, it's not analogous at all
Of course they can. Just be good enough and get elected into the team. Because they are not on the olympic team, clearly they must suck, no? That's what you do by implying someone is "taking the easy route". Other's only see the need in necessary intermediate steps on the way to the top. That it is not sufficient to pour all attention, effort and money top-down. That this method may only last for so long.
Some specific tournament like NASL is not even the point of the whole topic anyway. Of course there are tons of tournaments. But the disparity is huge between the tiers. Some organizations like Complexity and VVV are already realizing it may be more intelligent to carve out a path all the way from the bottom, with their academy project.
And no one gives a shit about high school competitions or would want to watch them.
On June 17 2011 15:21 A3iL3r0n wrote: Why does the US win most of the medals most of the time? The US spends the most money on its athletes. It has nothing to do with racism or anything, just money.
one: that's not definitively accurate. two: money does not equal results. three: sports and esports are different areas of competition. three: EG is probably has the most income from all their various sponsors, but only IdrA (seems) to be doing well, and that was a result from the rigorous practice he puts on himself (and all the practice he put in BEFORE he joined EG). four: did i ever mention race? I only said COUNTRIES.
It really does though...US has enough money for athletes to devote all their time to stuff, proper training, experts, etc.
This pseudoeconomic argument is garbage. The goal of various tournaments and sponsors isn't to pay the salaries of players, it's to create a tournament that is compelling to top players, which in turn will draw viewers, which in turn will draw ad revenue and create (in theory) some sort of growing ecosystem. This is why Korean players get invited to tournaments -- they increase the viewership, which in turn increases the revenue of the tournaments and their financial backers, which allows them to put on bigger, more compelling tournaments in the future.
Money paid by North American tournaments to North American players isn't money that recirculates within the Starcraft community, it's money that players use to pay their expenses. More money paid to them means that they can live a more comfortable lifestyle, but there really aren't any positive effects for viewers if NA pros get paid more. It's clear that what really matters from the perspective of the long-term viability of eSports is the amount of money flowing in from external sponsors and tournaments, and this amount is directly related to how compelling the product they are putting out is. As a result, they want to appeal to the largest possible audience, and this is only possible if they invite the best players possible. At this stage in the development of Starcraft 2, when there is a league with the best production values, the best players, and the best announcers (i.e., GSL), a league which features strictly inferior players is a tough sell.
We don't measure the success of professional sports leagues by how much they pay their players (and indeed its in the interests of a franchise to pay their players the smallest amount that they can still get them to compete for), but rather by how much the franchises earn.
On June 17 2011 15:09 Aleph One wrote: TLDR: I think Catz is right. SC2 doesn't just need the big name competitions, it needs regional leagues too (minor leagues, if you will), so less skilled players can get their friends interested in competitive gaming. Also, having local players allows regional-based rivalries to form, which is the best way to get average shmucks to care.
Are you trolling? There are SO MANY tournaments available right now. Just take 60 seconds and go look at the upcoming events list.... so many things.... If you click on the SC2 Tournaments forums there are constantly new tournaments some of which are for players bronze to platinum only, female only, or anyone allowed regardless of their ranking.
As a BW player who was 'good' but never 'one of the best' I would have been all over the tournament scene when i was younger because there are tournaments every other day it seems.
Sadly i'm an old man and have to work for a living, but I think the tournament scene is a royal feast compared to any other game in any other time period.
As far as rivalries go.... Zenio and IdrA..... MC and IdrA..... IdrA and _____.... Players make rivalries and it doesn't matter if they are from Korea or Antarctica. It only takes one player choosing to create a rivalry for there to be one. IdrA is pretty good at this if you haven't noticed.
All-in-all i want to watch the BEST players play regardless of the flag they bare. By shutting out all Koreans you not only make the foreigner scene weaker, you push people who like to see the game played to the fullest away. I realize we're the minority, but I also believe we're the most loyal and passionate.
I disagree. I'm a fan of MMA, and while UFC has the best fighters, other promotions are fun to watch too. But your stance ignores the fact that the foreign scene needs money in order to fuel their growth as players and be the best they can be. Direct competition with Korea is not going to make the foreign scene better. The foreign scene will get better with more money which equals more people wanting to play, more talent to choose from, better talent rises to the top, there's money there to make those people want to keep playing, etc.
[B]On June 17 2011 15:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:what kind of stupid example is this? they don't go to the olympics because they can't, it's not analogous at all
Of course they can. Just be good enough and get elected into the team. Because they are not on the olympic team, clearly they must suck, no? That's what you do by implying someone is "taking the easy route". Other's only see the need in necessary intermediate steps on the way to the top. That it is not sufficient to pour all attention, effort and money top-down. That this method may only last for so long.
Some specific tournament like NASL is not even the point of the whole topic anyway. Of course there are tons of tournaments. But the disparity is huge between the tiers. Some organizations like Complexity and VVV are already realizing it may be more intelligent to carve out a path all the way from the bottom, with their academy project.
And no one gives a shit about high school competitions or would want to watch them.
And you truly believe sports as it exists right now would be possible without the support and systematic organization of every tier below the top-league?
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that.
also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors.
Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah.
even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income.
Saying the money doesn't circulate back to the scene is silly. The difference between working hard for 3 months on a tournament and making $15000 to making in that same time $1000 is the difference between playing SC2 as a full-time occupation for a year and doing it in your spare time from your full-time job. Players are forced to spend their time coaching and streaming ladder games to make money instead of practicing vs. high quality practice partners at a team house because of money. That is the difference between long-term scene success and being able to compete with Koreans and long-term amateur values.
[B]On June 17 2011 15:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:what kind of stupid example is this? they don't go to the olympics because they can't, it's not analogous at all
Of course they can. Just be good enough and get elected into the team. Because they are not on the olympic team, clearly they must suck, no? That's what you do by implying someone is "taking the easy route". Other's only see the need in necessary intermediate steps on the way to the top. That it is not sufficient to pour all attention, effort and money top-down. That this method may only last for so long.
Some specific tournament like NASL is not even the point of the whole topic anyway. Of course there are tons of tournaments. But the disparity is huge between the tiers. Some organizations like Complexity and VVV are already realizing it may be more intelligent to carve out a path all the way from the bottom, with their academy project.
And no one gives a shit about high school competitions or would want to watch them.
And you truly believe sports as it exists right now would be possible without the support and systematic organization of every tier below the top-league?
Sure everything needs a lower-skill tier to pick talent from, but do any players who aren't the very best get paid well or receive much fame? No. Even junior players in hockey playing at an extremely high level get little attention or money. So since you were trying to make an analogy out of it, if NA banned the very best competition and became a sub-par region, you can bet they'll have far less viewers and far less money flowing in.
In a way, Catz is right - if foreign players can't live off playing Starcraft, they will never be as good as foreigners, and if koreans take all the top prizes in the foreign scene, the foreign players will never be able to live off playing Starcraft.
HOWEVER. Since there is so much Starcraft content which is very easily accessible, and due to various factors people don't really care about the players' nationalities etc, I doubt any kind of 'regional' leagues or whatever could ever become very big. Take koreans out of NASL / Dreamhack / etc, and I can guarantee you, the viewers count will plummet - because really, who wants to watch the 'mediocre' players (no offense to anyone!), when they can watch GSL instead.
The casual viewers might not even notice the difference in quality of play or w/e between regions, and rather root for their favorites from the western scene - but if all the more 'hardcore' fans only seriously discuss Korean events, and scoff at the foreign ones because they are not 'as good', it's not like the casual viewers will keep their interest in it either.
I think right now is really the big turning point where foreign teams need to make a bit of a sacrifice and really invest into their practice rather than trying to cash in on some dough right now by streaming / showing off in interviews etc - because if Koreans keep galloping ahead in practice hours, it's just going to be BW all over again, really.
On June 17 2011 15:21 A3iL3r0n wrote: Why does the US win most of the medals most of the time? The US spends the most money on its athletes. It has nothing to do with racism or anything, just money.
one: that's not definitively accurate. two: money does not equal results. three: sports and esports are different areas of competition. three: EG is probably has the most income from all their various sponsors, but only IdrA (seems) to be doing well, and that was a result from the rigorous practice he puts on himself (and all the practice he put in BEFORE he joined EG). four: did i ever mention race? I only said COUNTRIES.
One, what I said is completely accurate, All-Time Olympic Medal Totals. Two, have you ever heard of the fucking Yankees? You put three again (four): Where did Idra get all that practice before EG? On a Korean pro-team. (Five,) Sports and eSports exactly are the same in the way they need money to provide the competitors time and training resources to be the best they can be.
One, what I said is completely accurate, All-Time Olympic Medal Totals. Two, have you ever heard of the fucking Yankees? You put three again (four): Where did Idra get all that practice before EG? On a Korean pro-team. (Five,) Sports and eSports exactly are the same in the way they need money to provide the competitors time and training resources to be the best they can be.
I'm not disputing the fact that the US wins the most medals; I'm arguing that it's not definitively proven that there the US or the Yankees (whatever) wins the most because of the money. I'm not disputing the fact that esports and sports athletes need money. I'm saying that the EXCESS of money does not RESULT in more WINS, though it certainly can help.
And what's stopping anybody from practicing more? Does not being on a Korean Pro team prevent anyone from practicing more? A lot of foreign players have enough income from sponsorships to sustain themselves financially; does not having more money bar them from practicing more? IdrA quit his team and STILL KEPT PRACTICING DURING THE BETA.
On June 17 2011 15:32 Azuzu wrote: NOBODY is saying all Koreans should be banned from all foreign events. Instead, I leave a word of caution that their scene could "smother" ours and stunt its growth.
The words unspoken are the most dangerous.
And honestly could any Professionals reading this post please? Are you guys discouraged by Koreans coming to the US or is it just CatZ.
What a bogus argument. The only thing that matters to E-sports right now is getting a shitton of viewers. This is how it works
1: Get a ton of viewers 2: More sponsors take notice 3: More money flows into the scene 4: #3 will profit everyone
And the easiest way to achieve #1 is to bring in the best of the best. What better way to get hype and attention? I sure woudn't watch a competition with only NA players.
Did you just imply that only Americans, or whatever group it is that you seem to exclude Peruvians from, can be racist? Either way, you cannot say he complains about locale and then bring up the fact that he is not from North America as some form of evidence, and the fact doesn't fit in with an argument about Korean starcraft infrastructure versus the world, as Peru obviously falls into the latter category.
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that.
also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors.
Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah.
even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income.
Do you have any figures or sources to back that up?
Even if we say for the sake of argument that the US SC2 scene has more money than only the KOR SC2 scene, you still have to take into account all of the built-in knowledge of the coaches from BW, all of the established practice habits, gaming houses available, a good segment of their population wants to be pro-gamers, meaning high competition from a large talent pool = the best of the best. All of that has a monetary value that was paid for by BW. Without looking at the numbers, you can surely bet that as a whole, the Korean scene has way more going for it than the foreign scene. The foreign needs more money to boost their infrastructure up to that level.
On June 17 2011 15:32 Azuzu wrote: NOBODY is saying all Koreans should be banned from all foreign events. Instead, I leave a word of caution that their scene could "smother" ours and stunt its growth.
The words unspoken are the most dangerous.
And honestly could any Professionals reading this post please? Are you guys discouraged by Koreans coming to the US or is it just CatZ.
There were some concerns in the past on SotG that the Korean invites getting a free pass into the championship bracket of MLG would jeopardise the legitimacy of the championship bracket and accumulation of points for the finals.
But that's not what CatZ is concerned about. He's complaining that Korean's get to participate in a north american online tournament for a big prize pool without having to fly over to the US, and that is akin to taking money out of western e-sports. If the Koreans had an online tournament for a large prize pool, which didn't require players to fly over to Korea (and somehow manage to give the players KR accounts), you bet your bottom dollar that north americans would jump on the opportunity to take money out of the korean e-sports scene.
1. CatZ is racist – FALSE - he doesn‘t agree with koreans competing in NASL, not because of their race, but locale. Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
Well, that one‘s easy, let‘s do another one.
Locale, race, he's discriminating against them simply because of where they are from, it doesn't matter how you try to spin it. That's not an easy one, that's flat out wrong. and just because he's peruvian doesn't mean shit. If someone is asian, and they don't like black people, guess what, they're racist, just because they're asian themselves, doesn't make them not racist. wtf kind of bullshit logic is that.
2. CatZ wants to win more money and is afraid of korean competition – FALSE – this argument is of purely economical inclination, Paolo is saying that the prize money should stay and circulate in the foreign Starcraft scene – I will go into deeper detail on this in a second.
also false, you talk about the exporting of money going to koreans, but you COMPLETELY ignore the fact that having koreans involved INCREASES the revenue of the western scene because of subscribers/viewers/etc. The set cost of the money going out is effectively gone the moment it is put up for grabs, it's no longer in the hands of the US, it's in the hands of whoever wins it, whether it be korean, japanese, chinese, or american.
I don't even know how you can call your post an 'article'
[B]On June 17 2011 15:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:what kind of stupid example is this? they don't go to the olympics because they can't, it's not analogous at all
Of course they can. Just be good enough and get elected into the team. Because they are not on the olympic team, clearly they must suck, no? That's what you do by implying someone is "taking the easy route". Other's only see the need in necessary intermediate steps on the way to the top. That it is not sufficient to pour all attention, effort and money top-down. That this method may only last for so long.
Some specific tournament like NASL is not even the point of the whole topic anyway. Of course there are tons of tournaments. But the disparity is huge between the tiers. Some organizations like Complexity and VVV are already realizing it may be more intelligent to carve out a path all the way from the bottom, with their academy project.
And no one gives a shit about high school competitions or would want to watch them.
And you truly believe sports as it exists right now would be possible without the support and systematic organization of every tier below the top-league?
Sure everything needs a lower-skill tier to pick talent from, but do any players who aren't the very best get paid well or receive much fame? No. Even junior players in hockey playing at an extremely high level get little attention or money. So since you were trying to make an analogy out of it, if NA banned the very best competition and became a sub-par region, you can bet they'll have far less viewers and far less money flowing in.
You wouldn't call out the Premier League on "banning" teams, just because Barca or Bayern München are not allowed to play in it?
The sum per capita may be low for every individual in said low tiers, but don't underestimate the overall investment that is being taken by ruling organizations, suppliers, advertisers and top-teams promoting future talents.
Banning Koreans from every tournament was never considered. Did you even read Catz's post? I am repeating myself here, fact is we are far away from such a state of "stable enviroment". But to say major actors within the community -that have the means to actually influence things- from players to organizations must never think about long-term developtment, but only creater bigger and bigger bubbles for the very top is concerning.
On June 17 2011 15:32 Azuzu wrote: NOBODY is saying all Koreans should be banned from all foreign events. Instead, I leave a word of caution that their scene could "smother" ours and stunt its growth.
The words unspoken are the most dangerous.
And honestly could any Professionals reading this post please? Are you guys discouraged by Koreans coming to the US or is it just CatZ.
Ask yourself this question.... There are two tournaments being hosted at the exact same time and by signing up for one you cannot sign up for the other due to time restrictions. Each tournament awards the same prize pool, however, one tournament has much better players in it than the other.
I would suspect that virtually everyone would pick the tournament with weaker players. The outliers would be the independently wealthy... the Richard Bronson's of sc2 which I think are few and far between.
I've played a LOT of shitty RTS games solely for the purpose of winning local tournaments. I've won 2 alienware computers, video cards, headphones, keyboards and the competition was completely awful except when Pillars would show up (he did this too). I'm no pro at sc2, but if we had local tournaments I think I'd represent well which is very similar to the argument you guys are making.
My example is good for ME, bad for the SCENE which is why I'll always side for bringing in the best possible players for sc2.
Catz makes a good point. It's like the NA grandmaster league vs. the Korean grandmaster league, they have their own regional divisions in which they compete. I don't see why this couldn't be applied to tournaments as well.
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
Comparing Starcraft leagues would be like comparing the NBA to the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA).
If you keep things segregated, there's nothing pushing the weaker league and they'll hit an artificial skill ceiling due to lack of competition to motivate them.
NBA players have only gotten better, CBA, at a slower rate. This shows when national teams meet in the Olympics or World Basketball Championship and the skill gap is enormous.
You could also use Major League Soccer and the English Premiership or Spanish La Liga as another example.
If your motivation to get better is ($) then I'm sorry, you're in this for the wrong reasons. Yes money is a necessity to live, but it should be your competitive drive to succeed as a gamer that fuels you. If it's money you want, then pursue a career doing something else, or help the e-Sports scene in some other way besides being a player. Have you ever thought that it's simply a lacking of natural talent and different work ethic that is causing this gap? You can fight as much as you want to protect the scene in North America, but when it comes time to benchmark yourself, if you're naturally not a talented enough player, you still won't be good.
Those who are meant to be pro-gamers will succeed regardless through hardwork, how do you think players like MarineKing became good? Practice, getting thrown in to face the big boys and learning from it.
You keep using the infrastructure argument. But there are players in MLG that aren't living in a practice house, that still did better than you, and better than players living in practice houses in North America. What is your excuse for that? Maybe they're simply better players, and there's no shame in admitting that.
There's so much I want to say, but knowing you, you won't even bother replying so it seems like a waste of effort.
On June 17 2011 15:32 Azuzu wrote: NOBODY is saying all Koreans should be banned from all foreign events. Instead, I leave a word of caution that their scene could "smother" ours and stunt its growth.
The words unspoken are the most dangerous.
And honestly could any Professionals reading this post please? Are you guys discouraged by Koreans coming to the US or is it just CatZ.
Ask yourself this question.... There are two tournaments being hosted at the exact same time and by signing up for one you cannot sign up for the other due to time restrictions. Each tournament awards the same prize pool, however, one tournament has much better players in it than the other.
I would suspect that virtually everyone would pick the tournament with weaker players. The outliers would be the independently wealthy... the Richard Bronson's of sc2 which I think are few and far between.
I've played a LOT of shitty RTS games solely for the purpose of winning local tournaments. I've won 2 alienware computers, video cards, headphones, keyboards and the competition was completely awful except when Pillars would show up (he did this too). I'm no pro at sc2, but if we had local tournaments I think I'd represent well which is very similar to the argument you guys are making.
My example is good for ME, bad for the SCENE which is why I'll always side for bringing in the best possible players for sc2.
How does having weaker foreign players stay weak help the scene?
On June 17 2011 15:57 FrostFire626 wrote: Catz makes a good point. It's like the NA grandmaster league vs. the Korean grandmaster league, they have their own regional divisions in which they compete. I don't see why this couldn't be applied to tournaments as well.
I would imagine that, if a world existed where NA KR and EU players could play against each other without lag, that the pro's would prefer to have a global grandmaster's ladder to compete on, rather than the segregated region locking we have now. Any pro that wouldn't want this simply doesn't want to compete with the best
On June 17 2011 14:59 legaton wrote: Catz arguments are bullshit because he considers (rightly, if you are a pro-gamer) prizes are a form of revenue, when they are actually are a cost for the organizers.
A cost for the organizers, you answered your own argument.
But the organizers point of view is the only one relevant for this problem. Catz talks about the growth of the NA scene and reinvesting money, except you don't reinvest COSTS. Costs supports the players, they have zero impact on the reproduction of a tournament. You have to create and reinvest a part of your benefits "to help the scene grow". Benefits are indexed on the viewership, either because they are paying (pay per view) or indirectly, through sponsors. On a competitive environment (lots of tournaments at the same time), you need to have the better product to appeal the consumer. And let's not forget the market niche for e-sports is small. At best, we are talking about half a million viewers in the entire world -minus Korea (450000 unique IP for MLG), all of them using the internet as media for consumption. There is not such a thing as a "local" scene, you only have small tournaments. As soon as you start streaming, you are competing against the whole world.
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
Comparing Starcraft leagues would be like comparing the NBA to the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA).
If you keep things segregated, there's nothing pushing the weaker league and they'll hit an artificial skill ceiling due to lack of competition to motivate them.
NBA players have only gotten better, CBA, at a slower rate. This shows when national teams meet in the Olympics or World Basketball Championship and the skill gap is enormous.
You could also use Major League Soccer and the English Premiership or Spanish La Liga as another example.
If your motivation to get better is ($) then I'm sorry, you're in this for the wrong reasons. Yes money is a necessity to live, but it should be your competitive drive to succeed as a gamer that fuels you. If it's money you want, then pursue a career doing something else, or help the e-Sports scene in some other way besides being a player. Have you ever thought that it's simply a lacking of natural talent and different work ethic that is causing this gap? You can fight as much as you want to protect the scene in North America, but when it comes time to benchmark yourself, if you're naturally not a talented enough player, you still won't be good.
Those who are meant to be pro-gamers will succeed regardless through hardwork, how do you think players like MarineKing became good? Practice, getting thrown in to face the big boys and learning from it.
You keep using the infrastructure argument. But there are players in MLG that aren't living in a practice house, that still did better than you, and better than players living in practice houses in North America. What is your excuse for that? Maybe they're simply better players, and there's no shame in admitting that.
There's so much I want to say, but knowing you, you won't even bother replying so it seems like a waste of effort.
How did the Koreans ever get better when there were no foreign leagues to compete with? Oh that's right, they developed their own scene and proceeded to beat the piss out of every guy practicing really hard in his parents' basement.
On June 17 2011 15:56 starcraft911 wrote: Ask yourself this question.... There are two tournaments being hosted at the exact same time and by signing up for one you cannot sign up for the other due to time restrictions. Each tournament awards the same prize pool, however, one tournament has much better players in it than the other.
Apparently if they're the same country as you there's nothing you can do about it. But if the better players are from a different one you get to complain that they're destroying your local scene.
On June 17 2011 15:50 Phaded wrote: But that's not what CatZ is concerned about. He's complaining that Korean's get to participate in a north american online tournament for a big prize pool without having to fly over to the US, and that is akin to taking money out of western e-sports. If the Koreans had an online tournament for a large prize pool, which didn't require players to fly over to Korea (and somehow manage to give the players KR accounts), you bet your bottom dollar that north americans would jump on the opportunity to take money out of the korean e-sports scene.
It's not about "taking money out of each other's scenes". It's about winning tournaments. And prize money IS ALWAYS TAKEN OUT OF WESTERN E-SPORTS. It's not like MC took his GSL winnings and invested it in streaming services for the GSL. Western Prize money is NEVER going to be put back into tournaments, no matter who wins, and it's always EXPECTED to be lost by tournaments.
On June 17 2011 15:09 Aleph One wrote: TLDR: I think Catz is right. SC2 doesn't just need the big name competitions, it needs regional leagues too (minor leagues, if you will), so less skilled players can get their friends interested in competitive gaming. Also, having local players allows regional-based rivalries to form, which is the best way to get average shmucks to care.
-=-
I think the analogy to professional sports is spot on. What would dramatically improve popularity and overall skill level would be regional minor leagues or tournaments. The obvious way to organize these would be people in gaming cafes putting together tournaments for the other people who play there. Unfortunately, gaming cafes are much less common and less populated than in Korea, so there isn't this amateur base to work from.
I think a lot of people are ignoring the impact that smaller, less competitive leagues could have. A lot of people don't watch their city's sports teams religiously, but most parents watch nearly every single one of their kid's soccer games. School team games bring out not only parents but also friends and other kids from the school. Sure, the players aren't anywhere near as skilled as the professionals, but the spectators can feel like they are personally invested in the game. Having been drawn to the sport because of a personal connection, they are more likely to develop an interest in the sport by itself.
Let me ask you this: do you personally know any professional basketball players? If not, do you know any people who played basketball in high school, or in pickup games? I suspect a lot more people will answer yes to the second question than the first, and I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption. The last question is: if you answered no to question 1 and yes to question 2, has that person ever talked to you about basketball, or asked you to watch a game with them?
That's the way sports really grow in popularity. Not by having incredibly skilled professionals performing superhuman feats, but by small amateur communities forming that grow organically. For example, nobody is going to view chess-boxing as anything more than an oddity unless they know (and respect) someone doing it.
I firmly believe that SC2 can't just be a one-tier competition (i.e. professional or not). If you don't believe me, ask blizzard. Do they throw every player into one big league and say "get better if you want to win?" No, they've divided the players by overall skill and then subdivided them into divisions of 100 people. Once a player is placed correctly, they have a goal that is actually reachable: play better than 99 other players of roughly the same skill to achieve rank 1 of their division. I think that's actually a really good idea with one glaring flaw, which is that blizzard gives you no reason to care other than the number. You don't know any of the people in your division, you never talk to them, and it's rare that you would ever play against them. Battlenet is horrible at drawing you into anything resembling a community, so the only interaction you have with your division mates is watching numbers go up and down.
For esports to really take off, there need to be REAL communities. If gaming cafes were as popular here as they are in korea they could offer regular small-prize tournaments where the competitors could actually meet each other, from which the winners could go on to compete in regional competitions. In some cities this might actually be feasible, but it would take a lot of grassroots effort to really get going. For myself, I'm thinking about starting an inter-departmental league at my university next year.
That's fine and good to say, but is completely unrelated to the current tournament situation. You're basically saying ESPORTS can expand by having MORE tournaments. Well... no shit? That's the whole point of expanding ESPORTs? It's easy to say that: so go do something about it.
You want a regional competition in your area? Then start one. Most of us enjoy having the 'big competitions' to watch. In fact, we want MORE. The players want MORE. It's too bad we live in a world where wishing for more didn't equate to the problem getting solved. Sitting around whining about the lack of tournaments is easy, how about try contributing and fixing the problem instead of whining about things beyond the control of others?
I think it's related to the current situation because all of the money is focused on just a handful of major tournaments. This kinda reminds me of the complaints people had for the GSL prize distribution - too top heavy. Off course this will motivate people to be the best, but it wasn't that sustainable of a model when SC2 first came out since only the top 16 got a significant amount of prize money while everyone else (17th to everyone who went to the offline qualifiers) got very little or nothing at all. Now that we have teams and players are getting salaries, the top heavy prize pool has less of an effect.
I think it would help develop the 'home grown' scene if the money can be distributed further down the line to 'semi-pro' tournaments. But this will be hard because it doesn't really benefit the major players involved (pro players, teams, and sponsors) - 1. why would a sponsor want to give money to a small tournament, where it isn't as cost effective as a big tournament, to advertise their brand? 2. why would a pro player/team want less money for the big tournaments?
So far, we are not at the point where Koreans dominate foreigners like BW, but I'm just wondering how likely sponsors are going to stick with an unsuccessful foreign scene with no potential for growth? I suppose that they could just be using the sponsorship as another form of advertising....but wouldn't they want to be associated with the best players/teams?
On June 17 2011 15:39 Kazius wrote: Saying the money doesn't circulate back to the scene is silly. The difference between working hard for 3 months on a tournament and making $15000 to making in that same time $1000 is the difference between playing SC2 as a full-time occupation for a year and doing it in your spare time from your full-time job. Players are forced to spend their time coaching and streaming ladder games to make money instead of practicing vs. high quality practice partners at a team house because of money. That is the difference between long-term scene success and being able to compete with Koreans and long-term amateur values.
In all honesty Catz spoke a pretty valid point. Esports will certainly grow faster if everyone competing lived in the US. But the way it is now, its all fragmented and across the globe.
If MC won a tournament and i saw vods of him celebrating in korea that'd be great, and mucho props to him; But oddly enough i feel like if i saw MC or idra or anyone else celebrating victory in chicago, or a bar in new york or whatever, it'd just have a different impact.
In a nutshell i agree with cats. If they had to be living here or whatever that would mean more SC2 houses, more opportunities for people, more motivation because it's closer and more accessable and more people in esports.
On June 17 2011 16:08 JBright wrote: I think it's related to the current situation because all of the money is focused on just a handful of major tournaments. This kinda reminds me of the complaints people had for the GSL prize distribution - too top heavy. Off course this will motivate people to be the best, but it wasn't that sustainable of a model when SC2 first came out since only the top 16 got a significant amount of prize money while everyone else (17th to everyone who went to the offline qualifiers) got very little or nothing at all. Now that we have teams and players are getting salaries, the top heavy prize pool has less of an effect.
I think it would help develop the 'home grown' scene if the money can be distributed further down the line to 'semi-pro' tournaments. But this will be hard because it doesn't really benefit the major players involved (pro players, teams, and sponsors) - 1. why would a sponsor want to give money to a small tournament, where it isn't as cost effective as a big tournament, to advertise their brand? 2. why would a pro player/team want less money for the big tournaments?
So far, we are not at the point where Koreans dominate foreigners like BW, but I'm just wondering how likely sponsors are going to stick with an unsuccessful foreign scene with no potential for growth? I suppose that they could just be using the sponsorship as another form of advertising....but wouldn't they want to be associated with the best players/teams?
Erm??? What game are you watching? There are PLENTY of small tournaments. Seriously. Go look at the tournament tracker. This scene is EXPLODING. Maybe you only watchMLG and GSL, but if you haven't noticed there are THOUSANDS of tournaments that have been going on. And the mere fact that there is are so many tournaments is pretty much proof that companies are on board with sponsoring them because no regular joe is going to give away money to players and hold tournaments. If you want more proof go watch them and see all the logos.
Unsuccessful? FOREIGN PLAYERS ARE DOING SO FUCKING WELL RIGHT NOW. It's just now that people are getting in a hubub because of MLG.
Rekrul has it right in this case. This isn't some lofty impossible goal that the Koreans are so good we need to keep them out. What I and I believe the majority of the fans want is players playing at the best they can,pushing the limits of the ability they have and giving us entertaining games to enjoy.
I don't consider Catz racist nor do I consider him greedy or scared, however I do disagree with him and I disagree with you.
I want Catz to get better, I want him to be able to go toe to toe with anyone be they a member of EG or a member of OGS. How can he if he never plays the folks from the lofted Korean teams? While I do find the NASL's non North American participants kind of ironic it's no more so then the Global Starcraft II league having mostly Korean players.
Such is the nature of the tournaments. In the end the best players should play. It's fairly simple is it not?
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that.
also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors.
Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah.
even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income.
Do you have any figures or sources to back that up?
Even if we say for the sake of argument that the US SC2 scene has more money than only the KOR SC2 scene, you still have to take into account all of the built-in knowledge of the coaches from BW, all of the established practice habits, gaming houses available, a good segment of their population wants to be pro-gamers, meaning high competition from a large talent pool = the best of the best. All of that has a monetary value that was paid for by BW. Without looking at the numbers, you can surely bet that as a whole, the Korean scene has way more going for it than the foreign scene. The foreign needs more money to boost their infrastructure up to that level.
I can show you a reply from PlayXP reporter but my English isn't good enough to translate the whole thing. maybe somebody will.
Ethan_Ahn (2011-05-27 20:08:43 KST)
굉장히 잘못된 생각을 가지고 계신 분들이 있으신데요.. 해외 게이밍 팀의 경우 한국보다 많은 후원을 받고 있습니다. (스타1 기업 구단 제외) 글로벌 회사에서 후원해주는 금액도 적지 않습니다. 물론 그만큼 성적으로 보답하고 지속적인 브랜드 노출을 해줘야겠지요.
한국에 지사를 두거나 수입사를 둔 회사들은 e스포츠 마케팅 자체를 병적으로 꺼려합니다. 자신들이 어린시절 단순히 놀고 즐겼던 오락실의 그것과 같다는 생각을 하고 있으며, 그 돈이면 차라리 연예인 단발계약해서 광고하는게 이득이다고 합니다. 그래서 한국 팀들이 국내에서 후원을 따내는거란 하늘의 별따기입니다.
반면, 해외 팀들은 본사에 직통으로 제안을 넣고 진행을 하기 때문에 큰 제약없이 성사 시킬 수 있습니다. 또, 그 회사들 역시 e스포츠와 게임에 큰 메리트를 가지기 때문에 보다 쉽게 일을 진행 할 수 있습니다.
해외 팀들의 스폰서는 조금만 확인해보시면 쉽게 아실 수 있을겁니다. 인텔, msi, 레이저, 스틸시리즈, 웨스턴 디지털, 도시바 등등 PC하드웨어 및 주변기기 업체들 하나씩은 모두 그들을 후원합니다.
이 같이 후원의 차이가 나는 이유는 조금만 알아보면 쉽게 알 수 있습니다. 한국의 수입사나 지사들은 큰 능력이 있지 않습니다. (회사들 마다 다르겠지만) 본사에서 각 대륙별로 지사 관리를 합니다. 아시아, 유럽, 북미, 남미 등등으로 나뉘죠. 그럼 한국은 본사도 아닌 아시아의 수많은 지사를 관리하는 아시아 퍼시픽과 교류합니다. 즉, 본사가 아시아 퍼시픽에 물건을 팔고, 아시아 퍼시픽이 아시아에 위치한 지사/수입사 들에게 물건을 팔아서 남는 차액으로 마케팅을 하게 되는 겁니다.
한 단계 거치면서 마진의 폭은 점점 줄어드는 게 당연하기 때문에 최하위체라 할 수 있는 국내 지사/수입사는 가용할 수 있는 예산자체가 적거나 없습니다.
결론은 그들은 한국의 팀들보다 더 좋은 환경에서 편하게 선수 생활을 누리고 있다라는 것입니다. 그렇게 때문에 그들에게 절박함을 바란다는 것은 어찌보면 무리일 수도 있다는 생각입니다.
the point is, Foreigner teams earn money from a company's head office that literally have a lot of money, but Korean teams earn money from Korean branch which has much less margin.
so even if IM has a sponsor of coca-cola, the support from coca-cola isn't as good as foreigner's because it is from Korean branch.
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses".
It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges.
Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example.
Comparing Starcraft leagues would be like comparing the NBA to the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA).
If you keep things segregated, there's nothing pushing the weaker league and they'll hit an artificial skill ceiling due to lack of competition to motivate them.
NBA players have only gotten better, CBA, at a slower rate. This shows when national teams meet in the Olympics or World Basketball Championship and the skill gap is enormous.
You could also use Major League Soccer and the English Premiership or Spanish La Liga as another example.
If your motivation to get better is ($) then I'm sorry, you're in this for the wrong reasons. Yes money is a necessity to live, but it should be your competitive drive to succeed as a gamer that fuels you. If it's money you want, then pursue a career doing something else, or help the e-Sports scene in some other way besides being a player. Have you ever thought that it's simply a lacking of natural talent and different work ethic that is causing this gap? You can fight as much as you want to protect the scene in North America, but when it comes time to benchmark yourself, if you're naturally not a talented enough player, you still won't be good.
Those who are meant to be pro-gamers will succeed regardless through hardwork, how do you think players like MarineKing became good? Practice, getting thrown in to face the big boys and learning from it.
You keep using the infrastructure argument. But there are players in MLG that aren't living in a practice house, that still did better than you, and better than players living in practice houses in North America. What is your excuse for that? Maybe they're simply better players, and there's no shame in admitting that.
There's so much I want to say, but knowing you, you won't even bother replying so it seems like a waste of effort.
first of all you come off arrogant as fuck.
but anyways
the cba is actually getting better as time goes on and actually a lot of other countries are becoming better at basketball but that's not the point. it's actually way different. the cba nba example is different because it's like sc2 was released in 2014 in china while sc2 was released in 2010 for the US. the U.S is just simply farther ahead of china due to people playing the game and people having the ability to make a career out of it.
you also attack the man personally. don't ever do that while trying to argue someone point. you just look like a retard.
he never said anything about the money. he's trying to say people require money to live, and it's harder to make a career out of e-sports since in the NBA or any league you get good money, scholarships and more things are guaranteed. his point is that if money is distributed to more communities more communities will flourish.
i agree with that practicing against the best is the best way to get better. practicing is different from competing though.
On June 17 2011 15:35 blah_blah wrote: This pseudoeconomic argument is garbage. The goal of various tournaments and sponsors isn't to pay the salaries of players, it's to create a tournament that is compelling to top players, which in turn will draw viewers, which in turn will draw ad revenue and create (in theory) some sort of growing ecosystem. This is why Korean players get invited to tournaments -- they increase the viewership, which in turn increases the revenue of the tournaments and their financial backers, which allows them to put on bigger, more compelling tournaments in the future.
Money paid by North American tournaments to North American players isn't money that recirculates within the Starcraft community, it's money that players use to pay their expenses. More money paid to them means that they can live a more comfortable lifestyle, but there really aren't any positive effects for viewers if NA pros get paid more. It's clear that what really matters from the perspective of the long-term viability of eSports is the amount of money flowing in from external sponsors and tournaments, and this amount is directly related to how compelling the product they are putting out is. As a result, they want to appeal to the largest possible audience, and this is only possible if they invite the best players possible. At this stage in the development of Starcraft 2, when there is a league with the best production values, the best players, and the best announcers (i.e., GSL), a league which features strictly inferior players is a tough sell.
We don't measure the success of professional sports leagues by how much they pay their players (and indeed its in the interests of a franchise to pay their players the smallest amount that they can still get them to compete for), but rather by how much the franchises earn.
Exactly. Very well worded post.
My advice to people who are so worried about Koreans coming to foreign tournaments and taking all the prize money is simply to wait.
Wait until tournament organizers begin reaping the rewards of such high viewer counts. Eventually there will be so much money in the scene that prize pools will skyrocket and teams and players will start seeing more and more of that money.
Until then, players should spend their time playing semi-professionally so that they can firstly get their name out there and build up a fanbase, and secondly begin building up the infrastructure and practicing environment they will need to compete when ESPORTS truly blows up in the west.
I love how the the OP named this thread "Catz' argument explained". Yeah you cracked the case wide open. I'm so grateful OP that you took the time to decipher this encrypted video to anyone of less than 400 IQ so that us simpletons are better able to understand this complex explanation. Why do you feel justified to suggest your understanding of Catz psyche?
"Economically" speaking NASL is profiting 10 fold off of every individual Korean in comparison to catz. He complains of Koreans not being "here" to play. It's a universally online league, how is being "here" even an option? GSL doesn't suggest that if an American moves to Korea and qualifies for Code A that they lose their privilege to compete in the NASL, why should it differ vice-versa?
I fail to see why you've inflated catz opinion to be on the level of a professional. His record and accomplishments or lack their of speak for his legitimacy as a competitor. He is a sponsored player, no more no less, and after his showing in the NASL his opinion will matter even less to them as he has not qualified for next season.
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that.
also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors.
Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah.
even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income.
Do you have any figures or sources to back that up?
Even if we say for the sake of argument that the US SC2 scene has more money than only the KOR SC2 scene, you still have to take into account all of the built-in knowledge of the coaches from BW, all of the established practice habits, gaming houses available, a good segment of their population wants to be pro-gamers, meaning high competition from a large talent pool = the best of the best. All of that has a monetary value that was paid for by BW. Without looking at the numbers, you can surely bet that as a whole, the Korean scene has way more going for it than the foreign scene. The foreign needs more money to boost their infrastructure up to that level.
I can confirm all of his statements as well as yours.
I understand and agree with Catz. Until recently it was near impossible for a group of players to get a team house and support themselves with gaming in north america while still being able to get the practice that a Korean player playing in Korea could, this is something that players in Kroea have been able to do for a very long time due to corporate sponsorships and e-sports infrastructure. The US does not have that, and players are relying on limited sponsorship money to maintain any sort of quality of life. Think how fast the E-sports scene in NA would grow if players in NA were getting this sort of prize money. We would see more and more team house pop up and it would be economically feasible for these players. We want them practising 8 hours a day, not working 8 hours a day.
With that said, I love Koreans and I hope to see them in further tournaments but would like to see some foreigners either step up their game (whether it be by gaining the ability to practice more without cashflow constraints etc) I myself am very passionate about how e-sports is growing in the west, and like catz I just want the best growth possible in the NA scene.
The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
Edit: sorry, my point, by my own fault, has been misconstrued. The "team house argument" I'm referring to is the fact that Koreans have them, we don't, and by implication we can't. If its an advantage, as we all agree, and my post goes on to argue below, why haven't we got them?
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key variable? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier? (And if that is the barrier, then that it is a justifiable excuse?)
Edit: or is it because you need 10 or so players squeezed in and us westerners are too proud to share a standard bedroom with 7 other grown men in order to achieve or dreams?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Honestly, i just lost all respect for Catz, and his new team. I honestly belive that this is a pathethic attidude. This MLG, was insanly epic, insanly good. Ive never cared about the other ones, but the playerbase in this one was so gooood, foreign vs korean thing was awsome... The goal with MLG is to entertain its customers/audience, this MLG was insanly entertaining, in large part due to the korean players.
The "college football" argument is legitimate, if you're willing to accept that NA is second tier.
That seems like a really shitty thing to do to me, though. EU is managing to churn out some pretty fantastic players that, while not always 100% consistent, are damn well in the same league as the Korean powerhouses. Nani, Thorzain, Jinro all could keep up with KR players for example.
The NA pros just seem a little bit more behind (with a few exceptions, Huk seems to be doing pretty well recently for example).
I'd like to think most NA pros want to challenge Koreans. Yeah, I usually root for Koreans, because I love them individually as players, like how MC just makes every game such high odds for himself (suicidetoss!) or the crazy drops from MMA recently, but even going back further, I saw more oddball strategies (that were good) and flashes of brilliance from Koreans. I don't mind being proven wrong at ALL though. I mean, I pretty much hate Idra on principle, but he tore shit up at Columbus, and he was looking very scary. He lost his momentum, and that kind of sucks, but the games he won, he crushed. And that gives me good games, even if I'm cheering against him.
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
Team houses DO matter, but for more than just the obvious reasons.
First, the obvious, the players live, breathe, and eat starcraft. They wake up, play games, talk to each other over breakfast about games, discuss games, watch each other play games, coach each other, then practice more games. It's much easier to maintain discipline in a group environment.
Second, the COACHES. This is HUGE. Korean coaches put their team first and their own personal results second (and only in SC2, BW coaches are dedicated coaches, and it'll probably be that way soonish for SC2. There's only a few exceptions at the moment, like oGsTheWind). They figure out how to practice for each player, they help each player out with any problems in their gameplay, and they are available more, because they don't require as much practice (or any) as the other players.
Third, camaraderie. You're going to be hard-pressed to develop a team atmosphere without having people together in a team house. You can tell this is true easily enough, by looking at, for example, the sense of just being on the same team between, say, Tyler and Jinro, vs. Jinro and Huk. The latter two players are clearly more comfortable with each other. Spend more time with people in person, you'll get to know people better. The team atmosphere is important, even for an individual sport, because people support each other.
I'm sure the players involved, or players who have been involved, know much more than me about it, and in fact, I've seen posts about this stuff on TL before, but don't underestimate just living with other progamers.
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
Please read my post and refrain from calling someone half-cocked. As I said, if team houses are so important (and I agree they are) then why aren't foreign players making them? Whats the barrier?
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
Please read my post and refrain from calling someone half-cocked. As I said, if team houses are so important (and I agree they are) then why aren't foreign players making them? Whats the barrier?
Go ahead, make one. Return if you run into any problems.
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
again, what's stopping any 'profesional' US team to do the same in NA? Most people already have a 'house', just pick one and stay together buy some bunkbed to accomodate more people
MKP said in his interview that he and Maka always talk about tactics in the bed before sleeping,
so there's really nothing super secret that the Korean are doing to be better in starcraft, just sleep-play-eat-play-talk-sleep starcraft 24/7 and do it from as early as 12/13 years while staying with a bunch of strangers far away from home (yes, some of the kids in pro house come from different city as Seoul)
^ edit: thank you to the poster above, who saw through my semi drunken rant to get my point
On June 17 2011 17:18 rotegirte wrote: Go ahead, make one. Return if you run into any problems.
Thats pretty much my point? Whats the barrier?
(I'm not at all presuming there is no problem, but if there is, tell me what it is? I think saying "they have teamhouses, we don't, and thats why we're worse off" is an incomplete argument)
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
What? You didn't even address anything in the post that you quoted, and offer some pointless drug rehab analogy. His post is perfectly legit: there's nothing special or magical about pro houses. It's a house with people living together who are teammates.
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
Please read my post and refrain from calling someone half-cocked. As I said, if team houses are so important (and I agree they are) then why aren't foreign players making them? Whats the barrier?
Go ahead, make one. Return if you run into any problems.
Dumb logical fallacy. Have you even moved out of your parents' house? Ever find housing for yourself? Find roommates, whether with friends or strangers? Was it that hard?
Are pro-gamers helpless little children or something? Heck, many on sponsored teams have MANAGERS who should be taking care of this stuff. FXO managed to set up a pro house in MALAYSIA.
The idea that players are going to support themselves off tournament winnings is misguided in the first place. That's not how it works in Korea -- at least not for anyone but for a select few who have "made it" and, even in the case of such players, it wasn't true for them while they were training and becoming good enough to actually earn that kind of winnings. Most of them have very little money to their name and are able to play SC professionally because their basic needs (i.e., food, lodging) are provided for by their teams.
For the NA scene or any foreign scene to develop and rival the Korean scene, players who are not yet good enough to win tournaments have to be able to play the game professionally. Thus, they cannot rely on tournament winnings as their source of income -- indeed, it is irrelevant where the tournament winnings are going. Instead, what's needed is a team infrastructure similar to that in Korea, where up-and-coming players can train full-time under the supervision of coaches who ensure they're working at it both hard and efficiently like a true professional.
The source of funding for the teams is sponsorship, and sponsorship is a function of viewership. Including Koreans increases viewership. Excluding them would have the opposite effect -- it would decrease viewership. Therefore, it would decrease sponsorship money. Therefore, it would decrease the opportunity for teams to create the kind of environment that develops the talent to compete with the Koreans.
I believe Catz's heart is in the right place, but his economic analysis is far off the mark.
How many here honestly thinks that SC:BW would have taken off in Korea like it did, if there was pro US and EU players coming over and winning the bigger tournaments again and again? Who would pay for pro-houses to house a lot of number 3's and 4's?
In order for the scene to grow and foster the viability of making it your living - and by consequence support the level of training needed to compete with the best, you need access to a way to market yourself and win prizes.
In my view including players from an environment where that viability is already established is more likely to stunt the growth of the other environment than to grow it. If done excessively.
It might help to start a tennis organisation up in Nepal to have Nadal or Federer come by for a match now and then. But if they start dropping by every week to win the local tournaments, you can shout "just get better noobs" all you want - but we can probably all see how that might demotivate those trying to get things off the ground locally.
Again simple questions have simple answers. A lot of the legitimate American teams already have intentions to develop team houses or already have. The only difference is in Korea it means something to be a professional gamer, and to live in a REAL team house.
I have to assume that you weren't involved when Broodwar was prime or are even involved now because a team house in Korea doesn't simply consist of 5 players. There are thousands of 17 year old Koreans who've gone through team houses just to simply be practice partners for the teams aces. Few ever make it, but the sheer quantity of potential players is 100 fold what America is. To them you don't hear selfish comments such as Catz about money. It is much more than the money to them. To have an opportunity to be a practice partner for an S player is a form of success in itself, and is enough motivation to commit 14 hours a day for these people.
To answer your question of the barrier. Overall money is a barrier. Because as much as money doesn't matter to most of the individual players in Korea, it matters to the investors. Team houses didn't sprout over night, it took growth for the nation and sport to intertwine. Which will eventually happen in America if esports is to truly succeed for Americans. It is nothing to invest money such as NASL for a tournament where your money is guaranteed, but to invest money for a team, coach, house, equipment on the off chance that the investor will generate a profit as a label is completely different.
I still think the pro house argument is right. Koreans aren't magically better. They live together as teams and practice diligently every day while discussing strategies together. That has a significant weight in my mind as to why Koreans are still much better on average than we are.
On June 17 2011 16:56 TI83 wrote: I couldn't care less where the player are from, I just want to see amazing games.
This. I always forget CatZ is Peruvian. He's.. well, was ROOT. That's all that matters to me. Not where you live or how much you make or anything else. Just your replays pls.
On June 17 2011 17:26 hifriend wrote: This is pretty ridiculous. If you don't like tough competition, then don't compete. It also comes off as fairly racist.
Ok, apparently you either didnt watch the video or simply didnt understand it. He is not against foreigners competing against Koreans. What he says is, that we need LOCAL tournaments that are winnable for Americans. He isnt against global competition, he just says that there has to be money in the US for esport to grow there. How do you expect there to be good players if the money is taken by the Koreans from the start. Of course theres no motivation for new players if theres no money they can realistically win, so they can sustain themselves as a Starcraft players. I think his soccer example was really good. Imagine the teams in the USA would have been put up against the best in the world right from the start. They'd just fail and would lose interest. But if they first compete against each other, it allows for a scene to develop, because there are tournaments that can realistically be won. Im not against global competition either, i enjoyed for example the world championship, but my point is, that there need to be local leagues you can train for and win.
And your point of racism is pretty dumb actually. He said himself that he would be fine with it if the Koreans had to come over to play it, like foreigners have to do with the GSL.
edit: @Xadar (above) the point is that he misconstrues all the foreign fans, that are making it possible for MLG to have a massive tournament, as fans of foreign players. We're not. We're fans of esports. Catz can have an NA only tournament if he wants, fans may watch, they might not, but I would rather see some Koreans, and I think many people would, which means the prize money on offer for a NA only tournament would probably be lower than for MLG.
If the foreign market is a fan just of foreign players then by all means have a protected tournament for them so they don't get beat. But if the foreign market is a fan of great games, then give them the best players. The soccer example is poor - I'd MUCH rather watch the EPL live than our local league, as I'm sure MLS fans would too.
On June 17 2011 17:34 inamorato wrote: Again simple questions have simple answers. A lot of the legitimate American teams already have intentions to develop team houses or already have. The only difference is in Korea it means something to be a professional gamer, and to live in a REAL team house.
I have to assume that you weren't involved when Broodwar was prime or are even involved now because a team house in Korea doesn't simply consist of 5 players. There are thousands of 17 year old Koreans who've gone through team houses just to simply be practice partners for the teams aces. Few ever make it, but the sheer quantity of potential players is 100 fold what America is. To them you don't hear selfish comments such as Catz about money. It is much more than the money to them. To have an opportunity to be a practice partner for an S player is a form of success in itself, and is enough motivation to commit 14 hours a day for these people.
To answer your question of the barrier. Overall money is a barrier. Because as much as money doesn't matter to most of the individual players in Korea, it matters to the investors. Team houses didn't sprout over night, it took growth for the nation and sport to intertwine. Which will eventually happen in America if esports is to truly succeed for Americans. It is nothing to invest money such as NASL for a tournament where your money is guaranteed, but to invest money for a team, coach, house, equipment on the off chance that the investor will generate a profit as a label is completely different.
a) the fact that Foreign pros are competing with Koreans without pro houses shows that the number of players argument is invalid. There are obviously enough players with raw talent outside of Korea that could find 10 players and move in together.
Why is money an issue? As I said we ALL pay rent/living costs. Why does it cost more to cram yourself in with other players?
I mean if you stick 8 people in the same room, as the Koreans are willing to do, then it would cost less!
On June 17 2011 17:32 Bombmk wrote: How many here honestly thinks that SC:BW would have taken off in Korea like it did, if there was pro US and EU players coming over and winning the bigger tournaments again and again? Who would pay for pro-houses to house a lot of number 3's and 4's?
You mean like Grrr and Elky? (Even if they didn't win that much).
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
What? You didn't even address anything in the post that you quoted, and offer some pointless drug rehab analogy. His post is perfectly legit: there's nothing special or magical about pro houses. It's a house with people living together who are teammates.
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
Please read my post and refrain from calling someone half-cocked. As I said, if team houses are so important (and I agree they are) then why aren't foreign players making them? Whats the barrier?
Go ahead, make one. Return if you run into any problems.
Dumb logical fallacy. Have you even moved out of your parents' house? Ever find housing for yourself? Find roommates, whether with friends or strangers? Was it that hard?
Are pro-gamers helpless little children or something? Heck, many on sponsored teams have MANAGERS who should be taking care of this stuff. FXO managed to set up a pro house in MALAYSIA.
What is the purpose of your post? To enlighten me that my reply doesn't meet legitimate standard?
I'm so glad you were able to pinpoint how me and another poster were unable to give sufficient analogies while you managed to contribute nothing aside from being fucking robocop. Instead of derailing other peoples comments//replies with negative remarks and not even suggesting an opinion of your own to the original questions, how about you just blank edit your post?
On June 17 2011 17:32 Bombmk wrote: How many here honestly thinks that SC:BW would have taken off in Korea like it did, if there was pro US and EU players coming over and winning the bigger tournaments again and again? Who would pay for pro-houses to house a lot of number 3's and 4's?
You mean like Grrr and Elky? (Even if they didn't win that much).
On June 17 2011 17:38 drop271 wrote: edit: @Xadar (above) the point is that he misconstrues all the foreign fans, that are making it possible for MLG to have a massive tournament, as fans of foreign players. We're not. We're fans of esports. Catz can have an NA only tournament if he wants, fans may watch, they might not, but I would rather see some Koreans, and I think many people would, which means the prize money on offer for a NA only tournament would probably be lower than for MLG.
On June 17 2011 17:34 inamorato wrote: Again simple questions have simple answers. A lot of the legitimate American teams already have intentions to develop team houses or already have. The only difference is in Korea it means something to be a professional gamer, and to live in a REAL team house.
I have to assume that you weren't involved when Broodwar was prime or are even involved now because a team house in Korea doesn't simply consist of 5 players. There are thousands of 17 year old Koreans who've gone through team houses just to simply be practice partners for the teams aces. Few ever make it, but the sheer quantity of potential players is 100 fold what America is. To them you don't hear selfish comments such as Catz about money. It is much more than the money to them. To have an opportunity to be a practice partner for an S player is a form of success in itself, and is enough motivation to commit 14 hours a day for these people.
To answer your question of the barrier. Overall money is a barrier. Because as much as money doesn't matter to most of the individual players in Korea, it matters to the investors. Team houses didn't sprout over night, it took growth for the nation and sport to intertwine. Which will eventually happen in America if esports is to truly succeed for Americans. It is nothing to invest money such as NASL for a tournament where your money is guaranteed, but to invest money for a team, coach, house, equipment on the off chance that the investor will generate a profit as a label is completely different.
a) the fact that Foreign pros are competing with Koreans without pro houses shows that the number of players argument is invalid. There are obviously enough players with raw talent outside of Korea that could find 10 players and move in together.
Why is money an issue? As I said we ALL pay rent/living costs. Why does it cost more to cram yourself in with other players?
I mean if you stick 8 people in the same room, as the Koreans are willing to do, then it would cost less!
I am a glutton convinced that I can somehow fit logic into your illogical mind. You ask dumb questions without taking the time to think of a simple answer. Then when you receive answers you knock them.
When I speak about sheer numbers I speak mostly in terms of Brood War. Where there has been next to 0 success from the foreign scene on a top tier level. Even in terms of Starcraft 2, how many foreigners do you see consistently placing in tournaments where Koreans participate. Let me answer, none. Numbers with dedication in Korea squashes foreigners in comparison.
Response to a) : Where do you ACTUALLY see Foreign pros competing with Koreans without pro houses? At MLG I saw Idra compete with Koreans. That is it. Who as you would know if you paid any attention since you became an expert of esports when you bought SC2 6 monthes ago and made a tl account, that he lived in a team house for SEVERAL years in Brood War, and LIVES in a team house NOW. Why are you failing to understand?
Lastly, where do you think 19 year old gamers have money to pay for a team house with equipment, and the capability of traveling across the country if not world to compete in tournaments. Well I guess they could work 8 hours a day. Oh, but then they wouldn't be playing starcraft full time, which in turn would defeat the purpose of having a team house to begin with.
On June 17 2011 17:26 hifriend wrote: This is pretty ridiculous. If you don't like tough competition, then don't compete. It also comes off as fairly racist.
Ok, apparently you either didnt watch the video or simply didnt understand it. He is not against foreigners competing against Koreans. What he says is, that we need LOCAL tournaments that are winnable for Americans. He isnt against global competition, he just says that there has to be money in the US for esport to grow there. How do you expect there to be good players if the money is taken by the Koreans from the start. Of course theres no motivation for new players if theres no money they can realistically win, so they can sustain themselves as a Starcraft players. I think his soccer example was really good. Imagine the teams in the USA would have been put up against the best in the world right from the start. They'd just fail and would lose interest. But if they first compete against each other, it allows for a scene to develop, because there are tournaments that can realistically be won. Im not against global competition either, i enjoyed for example the world championship, but my point is, that there need to be local leagues you can train for and win.
And your point of racism is pretty dumb actually. He said himself that he would be fine with it if the Koreans had to come over to play it, like foreigners have to do with the GSL.
What it all comes down to is that Koreans are willing to work a lot harder in order to improve at a faster rate than 99% of foreign pro's. In any healthy sort of competitive environment this should pay off greatly but now some foreigners have decided that rather than trying to practice on the same level as Koreans they'd prefer just completely excluding them from some of the events with the highest prize pools in the world.
Koreans don't even get a freaking salary and their only shot at getting good winnings is by taking #1-#4 in GSL code S. There are several korean players that are miles ahead of almost every foreigner but has made virtually nothing out of SC2.
Foreign players are preoccupied with coaching/streaming/laddering/being on talk shows and what not and most of them don't deserve that prize money to the same degree as koreans do.
On June 17 2011 17:38 drop271 wrote: edit: @Xadar (above) the point is that he misconstrues all the foreign fans, that are making it possible for MLG to have a massive tournament, as fans of foreign players. We're not. We're fans of esports. Catz can have an NA only tournament if he wants, fans may watch, they might not, but I would rather see some Koreans, and I think many people would, which means the prize money on offer for a NA only tournament would probably be lower than for MLG.
On June 17 2011 17:34 inamorato wrote: Again simple questions have simple answers. A lot of the legitimate American teams already have intentions to develop team houses or already have. The only difference is in Korea it means something to be a professional gamer, and to live in a REAL team house.
I have to assume that you weren't involved when Broodwar was prime or are even involved now because a team house in Korea doesn't simply consist of 5 players. There are thousands of 17 year old Koreans who've gone through team houses just to simply be practice partners for the teams aces. Few ever make it, but the sheer quantity of potential players is 100 fold what America is. To them you don't hear selfish comments such as Catz about money. It is much more than the money to them. To have an opportunity to be a practice partner for an S player is a form of success in itself, and is enough motivation to commit 14 hours a day for these people.
To answer your question of the barrier. Overall money is a barrier. Because as much as money doesn't matter to most of the individual players in Korea, it matters to the investors. Team houses didn't sprout over night, it took growth for the nation and sport to intertwine. Which will eventually happen in America if esports is to truly succeed for Americans. It is nothing to invest money such as NASL for a tournament where your money is guaranteed, but to invest money for a team, coach, house, equipment on the off chance that the investor will generate a profit as a label is completely different.
a) the fact that Foreign pros are competing with Koreans without pro houses shows that the number of players argument is invalid. There are obviously enough players with raw talent outside of Korea that could find 10 players and move in together.
Why is money an issue? As I said we ALL pay rent/living costs. Why does it cost more to cram yourself in with other players?
I mean if you stick 8 people in the same room, as the Koreans are willing to do, then it would cost less!
I am a glutton convinced that I can somehow fit logic into your illogical mind. You ask dumb questions without taking the time to think of a simple answer. Then when you receive answers you knock them.
When I speak about sheer numbers I speak mostly in terms of Brood War. Where there has been next to 0 success from the foreign scene on a top tier level.
Response to a) : Where do you ACTUALLY see Foreign pros competing with Koreans without pro houses? At MLG I saw Idra compete with Koreans. That is it. Who as you would know if you paid any attention since you became an expert of esports when you bought SC2 6 monthes ago and made a tl account, that he lived in a team house for SEVERAL years in Brood War, and LIVES in a team house NOW. Why are you failing to understand?
Lastly, where do you think 19 year old gamers have money to pay for a team house with equipment, and the capability of traveling across the country if not world to compete in tournaments. Well I guess they could work 8 hours a day. Oh, but then they wouldn't be playing starcraft full time, which in turn would defeat the purpose of having a team house to begin with.
Hey bro, if you want to rely on embedding insults to me in your argument then be my guest. Its not going to get a rise out of me. Team liquid has a standard, I may be new to it, but your post and attitude looks like it falls well short.
My point, which you either can't or won't grasp, is THAT TEAMHOUSES ARE IMPORTANT. Why don't foreigners have them? As I have repeatedly said, all of the foreign pros live in houses, so why not live together? Are you saying that these foreign pros live at home with their parents and therefore can't afford it?
Now I know that doesn't apply to 'rising stars' (ie 17 year old stars, who do still live at home). But foreign pros ARE competing with Koreans. MLG was a bit onesided, granted. But take a wider sample of tournaments - Jinro, Huk, Dimaga & TT1 in the GSL World Championship, White Ra, THE TSL WINNERS FFS. There are plenty of examples showing that, at this stage, the raw skill is there to compete. Considering we don't have the huge advantage of pro houses, it shows we have the skill to do it.
So get pro houses, make some sacrifice to achieve your dream.
Or don't, I have no personal issue with your choices, but don't complain that "they have prohouses and we can't" is a legitimate argument
On June 17 2011 17:38 drop271 wrote: edit: @Xadar (above) the point is that he misconstrues all the foreign fans, that are making it possible for MLG to have a massive tournament, as fans of foreign players. We're not. We're fans of esports. Catz can have an NA only tournament if he wants, fans may watch, they might not, but I would rather see some Koreans, and I think many people would, which means the prize money on offer for a NA only tournament would probably be lower than for MLG.
On June 17 2011 17:34 inamorato wrote: Again simple questions have simple answers. A lot of the legitimate American teams already have intentions to develop team houses or already have. The only difference is in Korea it means something to be a professional gamer, and to live in a REAL team house.
I have to assume that you weren't involved when Broodwar was prime or are even involved now because a team house in Korea doesn't simply consist of 5 players. There are thousands of 17 year old Koreans who've gone through team houses just to simply be practice partners for the teams aces. Few ever make it, but the sheer quantity of potential players is 100 fold what America is. To them you don't hear selfish comments such as Catz about money. It is much more than the money to them. To have an opportunity to be a practice partner for an S player is a form of success in itself, and is enough motivation to commit 14 hours a day for these people.
To answer your question of the barrier. Overall money is a barrier. Because as much as money doesn't matter to most of the individual players in Korea, it matters to the investors. Team houses didn't sprout over night, it took growth for the nation and sport to intertwine. Which will eventually happen in America if esports is to truly succeed for Americans. It is nothing to invest money such as NASL for a tournament where your money is guaranteed, but to invest money for a team, coach, house, equipment on the off chance that the investor will generate a profit as a label is completely different.
a) the fact that Foreign pros are competing with Koreans without pro houses shows that the number of players argument is invalid. There are obviously enough players with raw talent outside of Korea that could find 10 players and move in together.
Why is money an issue? As I said we ALL pay rent/living costs. Why does it cost more to cram yourself in with other players?
I mean if you stick 8 people in the same room, as the Koreans are willing to do, then it would cost less!
I am a glutton convinced that I can somehow fit logic into your illogical mind. You ask dumb questions without taking the time to think of a simple answer. Then when you receive answers you knock them.
When I speak about sheer numbers I speak mostly in terms of Brood War. Where there has been next to 0 success from the foreign scene on a top tier level. Even in terms of Starcraft 2, how many foreigners do you see consistently placing in tournaments where Koreans participate. Let me answer, none. Numbers with dedication in Korea squashes foreigners in comparison.
Response to a) : Where do you ACTUALLY see Foreign pros competing with Koreans without pro houses? At MLG I saw Idra compete with Koreans. That is it. Who as you would know if you paid any attention since you became an expert of esports when you bought SC2 6 monthes ago and made a tl account, that he lived in a team house for SEVERAL years in Brood War, and LIVES in a team house NOW. Why are you failing to understand?
Lastly, where do you think 19 year old gamers have money to pay for a team house with equipment, and the capability of traveling across the country if not world to compete in tournaments. Well I guess they could work 8 hours a day. Oh, but then they wouldn't be playing starcraft full time, which in turn would defeat the purpose of having a team house to begin with.
so its all come down to expectation
13/14 years old Korean who are good enough to be accepted to teamhouse are living in one room with 5-6 other people and eat instant noodle almost exclusively while playing starcraft 24/7
A small team with a local sponsor can easily afford to pay this for 2-3 months untill they started winning and get more name hence more sponsor
but do the western 'pro' willing to live like this is the real question
i understand what Catz is saying. He makes some valid points. And you know what? I would take him for his word if a riot ensued after MLG because the Koreans took all the money, or if no one showed up and everyone had a piss poor time. However, we all know what happened at Columbus, we all know it was one of the greatest SC2 tournaments to date, and we all KNOW that it did NOT hurt esports. It fking helped esports!
So when Catz says it will hurt esports.....the discussion ends there and his points become invalid.
Most of the time I see interviews with Catz he just seems bitter about something. Problem with that interview is he does not get his point across very well. I kind of understand what he is tring to say (no mater how wrong it is), but in the end it comes down to him being a realist, knowing that he will never ever win a tournament that has top Koreans.
fanbase grows if there is local players playing the sport. i really don't know how anyone cannot see that it makes sense. there of course should still be international leagues and tournaments...
On June 17 2011 17:32 Bombmk wrote: How many here honestly thinks that SC:BW would have taken off in Korea like it did, if there was pro US and EU players coming over and winning the bigger tournaments again and again? Who would pay for pro-houses to house a lot of number 3's and 4's?
You mean like Grrr and Elky? (Even if they didn't win that much).
I agree with Catz to an extent. I believe any tournament in the 'West' shouldn't discriminate who plays in it, but at the same time shouldn't be extending it's hand to certain [Korean] players.
If a Korean player approaches his coach / Team Manager and says "Hey, I was eliminated in R64 in GSL, can I leave for a weekend to play at MLG?" that would make much more sense than inviting 4 and putting them in a championship bracket.
I really feel like inviting Koreans into Western tournaments was like opening Pandora's box. Sure it was exciting to see a few Koreans tear up their first MLG, but where will we be 1 year from now? MLG flooded with Koreans and foreigners trying and failing in Code A.
We all know we got the short end of the stick in the trade. Foreigners won't be winning in the GSL nearly as much as the Koreans will in MLG.
On June 17 2011 18:08 KULA_u wrote: fanbase grows if there is local players playing the sport. i really don't know how anyone cannot see that it makes sense. there of course should still be international leagues and tournaments...
Totally fair. Just don't expect the same viewership, sponsors and prizes as MLG Columbus had if you limit the level of talent on show
About the video itself, I don't get why Joshy would continue taping when CatZ is having a total collapse in terms of his train of thought. Why not cut and retape?
On June 17 2011 11:39 MidnightSun001 wrote: A simple economical formula that most students know:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
What CatZ is talking about is the "(X-M)" part which stands for net exports. It is the diffrence of export versus import. When import is higher than export (money leaks) GDP is smaller. If consumers buy more foreign products than local ones, net export is negative. In other words, buying goods from a foreign country fuels money to that country's economy, while your country gets into shit financial situation if this phenomena is en masse.
The GDP of what exactly? The USA :D? Giving money to US players over Korean players doesn't really benefit a tournament, at least I don't see how. The SC2 tournament scene is benefiting from having Koreans over since it makes the competition better and brings in more interest (i.e. more stream views, attendance, w/e). This kind of "deal" is only hurting "the GDP" of the foreign players, especially the ones who are not really "top tier" (no offense intended) and would be getting a couple hundred dollars here and there, while they're getting practically nothing with the Koreans at the top of every major tournament. Imagine what will happen if Bnet 2.0 ever gets fixed and "low level" Koreans start competing in the weekly online events.
So, does the foreign community really want to alienate the Koreans? Well, it might be worth a try - in the short term, foreign players will benefit, while tournament organizers might take a very small hit (probably more than worth it when compared to accommodation costs for the Koreans (MLG)). What would happen in the long term is hard to predict, but the only example we have from the past is BW. Sure, there never was a foreign pro scene in BW like there is now in SC2, but I can't help but think that that was somewhat due to the fact that foreign BW was kind of like "the special Olympics" of BW - guess how much "special Olympics" athletes earn compared to Usain Bolt. (Btw, I mean no disrespect to special Olympics athletes - it's just a fact of life that very few people care about their results)
As a casual SC2 player and spectator, I'd much rather see top foreign players step up their game and compete with the Koreans (and beat them - which some of them can already do). I feel that, in the end, people really don't care where you're from. They just want to watch the best games. If you can't offer that, than maybe it's time to change professions and get another job - it's not the end of the world, millions of athletes do it every year.
The only possible downside is that a lot of foreign players will quit the game and that might be a problem for big events like MLG etc. But there's no reason to think that there won't be someone there to take their place... The ladders are full of people just waiting for their chance .
Disclaimer: I only managed to read up to page 4 of this antic. So please bear with me if this was all talked before 1. What is a pro gamer?
ROOT.Catz wrote: It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
Catz is right. A profesional e-sport player doesn't have to be the best and always wins tournaments. He just have to make a living off the game. He does it by acquiring contracts with the sponsors (Stripe gum anyone?), revenue from the stream (Destiny needs you) and lastly from tournaments winnings (Thor is here). The most essential part about being pro is the ability to draw people, later fans to follow you (no. this is not facebook or twitter plug) and keeping them. Those fans are the biggest asset of the pro gamer. Having big fanbase puts a pro gamer in advantageous positions when it comes to tournaments and sponsors. Spots in high priced invitationals and so on. Lets look at Idra. The prime example of western professional gamer. When he was in korea during the BW days he was mostly unknown to the big masses. Only the little minority followed him (Sorry if i offended half of teamliquid forum saying that). Then came SC2 and Idra jumped the bandwagon. He decided to play Zerg (damm you Artosis) which at that time were starting to suffer from major nerfs due to constant blizzard's patches. He was soon known for very bad manner when he lose and calling everything imbalanced. Thanks to that he gathered lot of new fans. Then he left the korean team to join EG. This move changed a a underpaid pro into a high in demand, extremly medial pro gamer that could even change the loss in game into a business win later. Eg. MLG's both Dallas and Columbus. Answer yourself what do you remember from those events? Idra GGing to halu voidrays? Idra GGing after basically killing MMA? Those games became later topic of many discussions springing even more interest in Idra from normal people. Imagine on twitter what people not knowing about SC2 felt when they saw trending topic Idra (or before Jinro). Were they curious about it? Did they google it? A chance to get new fans by a pro gamer. 2. Influence of koreans pros on western e-sports scene As was said before. People and viewers want them. Prime example being the TSL 3 and MLG Colombus. Lets talk about TSL 3 first. First two rounds of the tournament, apart from the finals had the highest amount of viewers. After the koreans were slaughtered the amount of viewers dropped by more than a half for most of the games. Now back to MLG Colombus. I bet some NA pros were suprised that they couldnt get into competition cause the player passes were sold out an oddity when compared to the MLG before. The price pool didnt change, the format stayed the same. The only difference was the fact that there were few koreans invited. People at the venue wanted to see them, try playing versus them. Stream viewers wanted to see them. Were waiting for their victory celebration (MMA fireball at Idra - kill me i wasnt SF player) and to see if foreigners can take out koreans. More people at venue and on streams make it easier to get sponsors for new events and hopefully a increase in price pool. Imagine Sundance coming into a big company and saying. We had XXXX amount of people live at venue which was that venue maximum capacity. Also we had 2 satellite trucks doing internet transmision to 22 milion poeple during the duration of the event. We would show your commercial every 15-20 minutes depending on the length of the match. Did i mention that for us next event we would easly top those numers.... Would such conversation be possible without koreans playing? Imagine the same conversation with Dallas numbers....
Lets talk professional gamers at Columbus. Idra - big win for him, All people would remember for years after was his game vs MMA Thorzain - almost big win for him. Would have been better than Idra's if it wasn't for big MLG slip up. If his revenge match vs MC would have been shown he would win hands down vs Idra when it came to marketing value. Catz - the big loser. He missed his biggest chance ever that was bestowed by esport god. Playing against July. If he played that game his stocks would go threw a roof. If he would lost and yet played with a ultra interesting style it would be a great win for him due to lots on new fans. If he would won.. Catching eternal fame, gazillion new fans, edollars rolling in.
Lets sum it up. People want to see koreans play in western events hoping that there would be a hero that would rolfstomp them. Since people want it than the tournament organisers want it also. It gives them more attendance and more viewers. So what can the western pros do. If they dont go to such event with some silly excuse their fans would rage and might stop following the said pro. But if he goes and still doesnt win but performs good vs the said koreans he could get more fans following him which could be converted into more edollars. If a pro gamer want to base his income only on big tournaments winnings he is better off buying lottery ticket.
A pro that can sustain himself off the game is in fact in need of koreans. Fans would easly switch to some other western player if he keeps losing to him all the time. But in case of loses to koreans if the game was good he wouldnt lose the fans (short word for source of income) but would get more.
Ok those are my thought on the matter. I congratulate the reader who managed to get that far in reading it.
On June 17 2011 18:11 CellTech wrote: I agree with Catz to an extent. I believe any tournament in the 'West' shouldn't discriminate who plays in it, but at the same time shouldn't be extending it's hand to certain [Korean] players.
If a Korean player approaches his coach / Team Manager and says "Hey, I was eliminated in R64 in GSL, can I leave for a weekend to play at MLG?" that would make much more sense than inviting 4 and putting them in a championship bracket.
I really feel like inviting Koreans into Western tournaments was like opening Pandora's box. Sure it was exciting to see a few Koreans tear up their first MLG, but where will we be 1 year from now? MLG flooded with Koreans and foreigners trying and failing in Code A.
We all know we got the short end of the stick in the trade. Foreigners won't be winning in the GSL nearly as much as the Koreans will in MLG.
so you think MMA,Losira,Moon,MC and July will pay the $2000 flight ticket Anaheim + accomodation out of their own team pocket to have a shot at $5000 prize ?
On June 17 2011 18:17 Kickboxer wrote: You can never beat Koreans if you don't compete with them on a regular basis.
That's a fact.
WhiteRa, Dimaga and TT1 did....
You've derailed this thread for your personal emotion for so long. If you were so schooled on their record vs Koreans you probably wouldn't continue to argue the skill level of foreigners vs Koreans. The only one you named to beat a Korean in a best of AT a live event is Dimage at GSL World Championship, which was Nestea. Then he lost immediately and was eliminated. Take your national pride out of it for long enough to realize that currently, Koreans are much better than foreingers.
You also fail to take into consideration that all of these players had seen their opponents play previously to their games against them, which means their more susceptible to being sniped. The Korean players had never even heard of most of these players let alone watched them play.
but do the western 'pro' willing to live like this is the real question
This is the question honestly. After watching TLO's video about how they got a team house where everyone gets an individual room. You sort of understand why so few foreigners have team houses. It's higher overhead.
I've mentioned this at least 5 times on TL but no one ever answers, probably because I'm correct and none of the pros want to admit it.
They don't WANT to live like the korean progamers in Korea with multiple (4-5) people in one room. they all want their own privacy, which already increases the overhead cost of a foreigner house/apartment tremendously. Drop271 actually does bring up a valid point. Where there are individuals who are old enough to pack up, take a plane/bus across the United States with their belongings and their computer and just rent a place with a bunch of people and move in together.
Most of the progamers on teams who are older already have their own computer, and are usually paying rent for their own place. Why not save on the rent, move in with 4-5 people, and use the saved money on food and living costs. Seems TOTALLY reasonable to me. Sure it might have to be a mixed teamhouse. I don't get what's so "hard" to mimic in respects to some of the aspects of a team house. The practice regiment can't be that hard, you just need to sit there and play all day, and you have teammates to help you. The "support" aspect that housemates provide one another isn't something that has to be "learned", it should be natural, unless people are really that bad in social settings they don't know how to support a fellow housemate.
So once again it comes down to:
1. Are North Americans ready to live crammed up in an apartment? Because from what I've seen in the team house tours by Artosis, apartments like those would probably house 3-4 people "foreigner" pro gamers given how picky they are with living conditions 2. Are they willing to put nearly as much time practicing? And giving up other aspects of their life?
This are two things Korean progamers have already decided the moment they decide to become a progamer and live in a team house. If foreigners aren't ready to make sacrifices, you can't expect rewards.
On June 17 2011 18:11 CellTech wrote: I agree with Catz to an extent. I believe any tournament in the 'West' shouldn't discriminate who plays in it, but at the same time shouldn't be extending it's hand to certain [Korean] players.
If a Korean player approaches his coach / Team Manager and says "Hey, I was eliminated in R64 in GSL, can I leave for a weekend to play at MLG?" that would make much more sense than inviting 4 and putting them in a championship bracket.
I really feel like inviting Koreans into Western tournaments was like opening Pandora's box. Sure it was exciting to see a few Koreans tear up their first MLG, but where will we be 1 year from now? MLG flooded with Koreans and foreigners trying and failing in Code A.
We all know we got the short end of the stick in the trade. Foreigners won't be winning in the GSL nearly as much as the Koreans will in MLG.
so you think MMA,Losira,Moon,MC and July will pay the $2000 flight ticket Anaheim + accomodation out of their own team pocket to have a shot at $5000 prize ?
I doubt it
I don't care how they pay for it, I believe exceptions shouldn't be made because they are Koreans from the GSL...
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
What? You didn't even address anything in the post that you quoted, and offer some pointless drug rehab analogy. His post is perfectly legit: there's nothing special or magical about pro houses. It's a house with people living together who are teammates.
On June 17 2011 17:18 rotegirte wrote:
On June 17 2011 17:13 drop271 wrote:
On June 17 2011 17:12 inamorato wrote:
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
Please read my post and refrain from calling someone half-cocked. As I said, if team houses are so important (and I agree they are) then why aren't foreign players making them? Whats the barrier?
Go ahead, make one. Return if you run into any problems.
Dumb logical fallacy. Have you even moved out of your parents' house? Ever find housing for yourself? Find roommates, whether with friends or strangers? Was it that hard?
Are pro-gamers helpless little children or something? Heck, many on sponsored teams have MANAGERS who should be taking care of this stuff. FXO managed to set up a pro house in MALAYSIA.
What is the purpose of your post? To enlighten me that my reply doesn't meet legitimate standard?
I'm so glad you were able to pinpoint how me and another poster were unable to give sufficient analogies while you managed to contribute nothing aside from being fucking robocop. Instead of derailing other peoples comments//replies with negative remarks and not even suggesting an opinion of your own to the original questions, how about you just blank edit your post?
Wth does legitimate standard even mean? When did I say anything about sufficient analogies? Your arguments are flawed and I pointed out why. Instead of taking it personally, how about you try and use logic/reason to retort? You called that guy's solution 'half-cocked,' which was pretty non-constructive, so I don't get why you're acting like I just spit in your face or something.
On June 17 2011 18:17 Kickboxer wrote: You can never beat Koreans if you don't compete with them on a regular basis.
That's a fact.
WhiteRa, Dimaga and TT1 did....
You've derailed this thread for your personal emotion for so long. If you were so schooled on their record vs Koreans you probably wouldn't continue to argue the skill level of foreigners vs Koreans. The only one you named to beat a Korean in a best of AT a live event is Dimage at GSL World Championship, which was Nestea. Then he lost immediately and was eliminated. Take your national pride out of it for long enough to realize that currently, Koreans are much better than foreingers.
I'm well aware of their record, keep making it personal mate, it doesn't make your argument look any better. The fact is - if they can compete at all, without the aid of prohouses, then it means they are at least in the ball park. So get prohouses and see what happens? You seem to argue that prohouse or not, foreigners are screwed. That is simply not the case (TSL mate?)
National pride? read my location. I've got nothing vested in any of these guy's success.
To me, this sums up you:
Realise you're wrong in an argument Not willing to admit it Pick off an easy point to get the last word ????? Profit?
edit: we have had our little argument enough though, so ahve the last word and PM me if you want. It seems enough people grasp my point and can argue it without me putting my 2cents in
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
What? You didn't even address anything in the post that you quoted, and offer some pointless drug rehab analogy. His post is perfectly legit: there's nothing special or magical about pro houses. It's a house with people living together who are teammates.
On June 17 2011 17:18 rotegirte wrote:
On June 17 2011 17:13 drop271 wrote:
On June 17 2011 17:12 inamorato wrote:
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it.
As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends?
How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier?
Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me
Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions.
It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others.
It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual.
Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up.
Please read my post and refrain from calling someone half-cocked. As I said, if team houses are so important (and I agree they are) then why aren't foreign players making them? Whats the barrier?
Go ahead, make one. Return if you run into any problems.
Dumb logical fallacy. Have you even moved out of your parents' house? Ever find housing for yourself? Find roommates, whether with friends or strangers? Was it that hard?
Are pro-gamers helpless little children or something? Heck, many on sponsored teams have MANAGERS who should be taking care of this stuff. FXO managed to set up a pro house in MALAYSIA.
What is the purpose of your post? To enlighten me that my reply doesn't meet legitimate standard?
I'm so glad you were able to pinpoint how me and another poster were unable to give sufficient analogies while you managed to contribute nothing aside from being fucking robocop. Instead of derailing other peoples comments//replies with negative remarks and not even suggesting an opinion of your own to the original questions, how about you just blank edit your post?
Wth does legitimate standard even mean? When did I say anything about sufficient analogies? Your arguments are flawed and I pointed out why. Instead of taking it personally, how about you try and use logic/reason to retort? You called that guy's solution 'half-cocked,' which was pretty non-constructive, so I don't get why you're acting like I just spit in your face or something.
Actually I had called his question "half-cocked" which immediately puts you under investigation for you lack of comprehension. I also point out that you yourself contributed nothing to the questions in this thread or the OP. You simply just took time to rage on myself and another poster because our answers weren't up to your personal standards.
On June 17 2011 18:17 Kickboxer wrote: You can never beat Koreans if you don't compete with them on a regular basis.
That's a fact.
WhiteRa, Dimaga and TT1 did....
You've derailed this thread for your personal emotion for so long. If you were so schooled on their record vs Koreans you probably wouldn't continue to argue the skill level of foreigners vs Koreans. The only one you named to beat a Korean in a best of AT a live event is Dimage at GSL World Championship, which was Nestea. Then he lost immediately and was eliminated. Take your national pride out of it for long enough to realize that currently, Koreans are much better than foreingers.
I'm well aware of their record, keep making it personal mate, it doesn't make your argument look any better. The fact is - if they can compete at all, without the aid of prohouses, then it means they are at least in the ball park. So get prohouses and see what happens? You seem to argue that prohouse or not, foreigners are screwed. That is simply not the case (TSL mate?)
National pride? read my location. I've got nothing vested in any of these guy's success.
To me, this sums up you:
Realise you're wrong in an argument Not willing to admit it Pick off an easy point to get the last word ????? Profit?
I am just not aware of what your point is. You ask numerous questions, then when you aren't satisfied with the answers you combat in any way you can. Then you continue to split hairs anytime someone states that foreigners can't compete with Koreans. If you read my previous post you would notice that I had said AT a LIVE event. Which means to be physically present AT a tournament "mate". TSL3 was one incident, which was online, which again is another instance of Korean professionals being sniped by players who watched them play since GSL Open. Make a legitimate point or stop ranting.
As far as I am concerned I am done posting in this thread or responding to you ever again simply because of the relentless dereliction and degradation you display time after time.
On June 17 2011 18:11 CellTech wrote: I agree with Catz to an extent. I believe any tournament in the 'West' shouldn't discriminate who plays in it, but at the same time shouldn't be extending it's hand to certain [Korean] players.
If a Korean player approaches his coach / Team Manager and says "Hey, I was eliminated in R64 in GSL, can I leave for a weekend to play at MLG?" that would make much more sense than inviting 4 and putting them in a championship bracket.
I really feel like inviting Koreans into Western tournaments was like opening Pandora's box. Sure it was exciting to see a few Koreans tear up their first MLG, but where will we be 1 year from now? MLG flooded with Koreans and foreigners trying and failing in Code A.
We all know we got the short end of the stick in the trade. Foreigners won't be winning in the GSL nearly as much as the Koreans will in MLG.
so you think MMA,Losira,Moon,MC and July will pay the $2000 flight ticket Anaheim + accomodation out of their own team pocket to have a shot at $5000 prize ?
I doubt it
I don't care how they pay for it, I believe exceptions shouldn't be made because they are Koreans from the GSL...
well the only reason they came to Colombus was because MLG was paying the whole bill (and CSN for July)
just like GOM will pay the bill to bring Thorzain, Naniwa, ??? and Sase over to compete in GSL
in Anaheim those 4 people wont get the same treatment and I doubt they are willing to pay on their own (except maybe MMA) so we will only see another 5 korean in Anaheim (the 4 GSL invite + MMA)
and the same will happen on the next MLG where only the 4 that get their expense paid by MLG will be there and so on
so I dont think we will ever see a 16 Korean pool play like many of the Pro feared
I understand Catz view but still, I think its not fair and besides plane ticket is extremly expensive, so even if they win, they have to pay for plane... As well as they will pay food, buy gifts etc during their visit
Honestly I fail to see how Korean competition discourages pro-gamers from competing or hurts tournaments.
First of all: they're good. No doubt about that. And people like winners. So they're popular.
And they bring in viewers, Western AND Korean It's a strange trend where Western viewers like to watch Koreans but Koreans don't like to watch Westerners unless Koreans are involved. So if you have a Korean competing in a tournament the viewership is increased.
More viewers = more money. As sponsors look at inflated viewerships in tournaments, they're encouraged to sponsor or advertise in these tournaments because it helps them out. They don't care about WHO is competing, they're caring about how many eyes are watching, and how many eyes can see their logo. And honestly, is any number of people going to boycott a tournament because there are Koreans?
That sponsorship money goes into the tournament winnings, and also pays the people running the tournament. It also gives extra capital for the NEXT tournament, and higher production values can be assumed, and bigger prize pools. Meaning more and more viewers and good for esports (this is assuming nothing goes terribly terribly wrong).
Now, Koreans aren't competing in every tournament; and they're certainly not coming in great numbers. (But the ones who do show are the most competitive).
That's because it costs money to send players from a Country so far away from the Western E-Sports scene. A lot of people think that Korean participation in tournaments is a problem because a lot of those people see them in big name tournaments like MLG where you're forced to actually be there in person.
But what's the problem? It clearly doesn't hurt tournaments; the hype from having MC, Losira etc probably increased viewership and excited the sc2 fanbase. The "problem" seems to be that Koreans will take the prize money away from our beloved foreigners.
wtf? That money isn't entitled to anybody. It's offered by tournament organizers hoping to entice worldclass players to compete in spectacular games which will draw viewers to enjoy and partake. And there's one simple solution if you want that money: play better. Practice more.
Yeah, it might make it easier for the players, but it doesn't HELP the tournament itself and wouldn't allow for growth since nobody would be interested in it if there are only no names in the tournament. THAT would hurt eSports because the tournament organizers would be running a shitty tournament!
There are so many small tournaments right now, go look at the tournament tracker. And so many of them don't have Koreans in them because of latency issues with Korea/time zone conflicts. If people are worried that the little guy is going to be hampered from the skill disparity, don't be because there are plenty of "sheltered" tournaments out there. And if people want the little guy to get a lot of money from big tournaments, he better play and EARN it.
The arguments in this thread have turned into Koreans are OP because they get to practice more because they have better player houses. First off I have to say that there's really nothing to stop Foreigner teams from making player houses. SEVERAL ALREADY HAVE. People are arguing that money is the issue, and I can assure you that it is NOT.
THERE ARE TEAMS FOR A REASON! They aren't living tournament winnings to tournament winnings, teams have sponsorship deals and they're able to do this 24/7. Anyone is capable of moving in with friends and such; every (real) sc2 team is more than capable of making a player house if THEY choose to.
And honestly I know I'm going to be repudiated for this post but here's the bottom line for any professional gamer: If you want to win, you better work hard for it and not make excuses. And if you're not willing to take up the challenge then you're not cut out for it.
No offense, but I don't like it when people who have little insight into the esports industry (or marketing in general) back their opinions using economic formulas and non-related examples. A SC2 player and his reputation is no tradable good that could be explained via the concept of GDP. To analyze the situation regarding Korean players in Western competitions, you have to think about the value they bring to the table and the effects that their successful participation has on the non-Korean players. There are lots of aspects to consider and it's not easy to find a definite answer. There is nothing wrong about discussing pros and cons on a platform like TeamLiquid – just don't come up with alleged "scientific proof".
Prize money is not what is going to support domestic e-sports unless we're talking about huge amounts of money. For a post focused around the "purely economical" this is a massive oversight.
Prize money is something selfish, short-sighted players will talk about in immediate terms because that's their immediate goal.
However, that is not how the economics of this situation works.
Take this recent MLG for example. It was by many accounts a very successful event and there is little doubt that the Korean invites contributed greatly to that success. Even though it was a Korean top 3, the crowd didn't seem turned-off by the fact an American wasn't on stage. It's great to see that gamers have largely skipped over the phase of racism or patriotism that has plagued some other sports and sees the game for what matters, good play.
The Koreans might take home the prize money, but they won't take home the interest generated for MLG events, the interest generated for SC2, the interest generated for e-sports, the increased fan-base, the stream revenue, the increased likelihood of getting sponsors interested due to it being an international event with international appeal, etc. Korea will of course benefit in their own ways, but the domestic gains for the US will no doubt be larger seeing as it was a US event.
So you can see that prize money as a payment for advertisement. See it like how the NBA, NFL, MLB, etc. will give a player a contract not necessarily only because they are good, but because they sell tickets and help popularize the sport.
On June 17 2011 18:11 CellTech wrote: I agree with Catz to an extent. I believe any tournament in the 'West' shouldn't discriminate who plays in it, but at the same time shouldn't be extending it's hand to certain [Korean] players.
If a Korean player approaches his coach / Team Manager and says "Hey, I was eliminated in R64 in GSL, can I leave for a weekend to play at MLG?" that would make much more sense than inviting 4 and putting them in a championship bracket.
I really feel like inviting Koreans into Western tournaments was like opening Pandora's box. Sure it was exciting to see a few Koreans tear up their first MLG, but where will we be 1 year from now? MLG flooded with Koreans and foreigners trying and failing in Code A.
We all know we got the short end of the stick in the trade. Foreigners won't be winning in the GSL nearly as much as the Koreans will in MLG.
so you think MMA,Losira,Moon,MC and July will pay the $2000 flight ticket Anaheim + accomodation out of their own team pocket to have a shot at $5000 prize ?
I doubt it
I don't care how they pay for it, I believe exceptions shouldn't be made because they are Koreans from the GSL...
well the only reason they came to Colombus was because MLG was paying the whole bill (and CSN for July)
just like GOM will pay the bill to bring Thorzain, Naniwa, ??? and Sase over to compete in GSL
in Anaheim those 4 people wont get the same treatment and I doubt they are willing to pay on their own (except maybe MMA) so we will only see another 5 korean in Anaheim (the 4 GSL invite + MMA)
and the same will happen on the next MLG where only the 4 that get their expense paid by MLG will be there and so on
so I dont think we will ever see a 16 Korean pool play like many of the Pro feared
Exactly, it was an exchange program between GSL and MLG. It was a win-win situation for both party as well as their sponsors, it draws in so much more revenue.
It is also great opportunity for players that is actually dedicated enough to reach the top instead of whining.
I haven't read through the whole thread, so forgive me if I repeat, but:
The macroeconomic concept is totally moot. A simple concept in microeconomics is that when monopolistic competition (in this case progamers and the events) or really, anything in the free market, needs an incentive to compete. In this case, if there are no Koreans to play against, the skill level with not rise, the foreign scene will fall behind like SC:BW again, and MLG/NASL will not get revenue cos everyone wants to watch koreans. (Note monopolistic competition is used for BOTH the progamers and the events in this example, kind of awkward, but tournaments sort of fall out of the norm from the normal business model).
I am on the opinion that if Koreans continue to compete in foreign tourneys, foreign players will get better at the game. As well as the games are going to be watched by more people.
To understand Catz's opinion we have to see that he was in a different position than others. Exposure is far more important for the players than prize money. For Catz this was not so because at the time he was part of a team that struggled with acquiring sponsors. So unfortunately for him the only way to comfortably continue to compete, which is an enormous investment without sponsors, was to win on several occasions. It is completely understandable that he wanted the prize money to benefit foreigners, not Koreans.
Imagine an IPL season 1 throughout a year. Let's say a high level player but not a top player like cruncher wants to win. He has to practice for people like kiwikaki, idra, select, the top of the top in his realm. He might become better but what about the top players? They wouldn't really have to practice. The power would shift very slowly, the same people would finish on top over and over again. The tournaments would get less viewers.
A good point that idra and incontrol made on inside the game is that too much Koreans are as bad as no Koreans. The World against Korea theme would be lost. Looking at how many Koreans dropped out of Dreamhack, I believe there is no such threat.
I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote: I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
Esports is brutal, it isn't as developed as other real sports, if he can't do it perhaps he shouldn't treat it as a career, because he is being unrealistic.
On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote: I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
The main problem again is (if you want it in economic/business terms) if people lose or never had a competitive advantage in the first place (ie. living in a team house, quitting school in pursuit of more years training early, etc) then they shouldn't be pro-gamers in the first place. They're just not cut out to ever compete with people who take the business more seriously.
Koreans give up a lot to go pro. If foreigners want to succeed they should be expected to do the same. IdrA is a strong example of a foreigner who understands this, and despite his leave from Korean training atmosphere, still remains one of the stronger competitors in the foreign scene and also in the korean scene. Foreigners shouldn't expect esports to accommodate them by dampening the entertainment from esports with easier competition. That would be detrimental to the industry because there would always be an iron curtain separating Koreans from what should ideally be an international activity.
On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote: I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
You don't have to feel like you can win the tournament to work hard. Not every 32 teams in the World cup thinks they can win it, but they all have a goal, be it round of 16, quarterfinal or others. Set a goal, and train and work towards it!
I think na is too weak at the moment to create high skilled tournaments. If they just take few players from eu and kr some na players can still excell above the rest and they have some competition which is good for their growth. I am not a fan of not playing against good players, trying to create a competition within a country(continent in this case).
My biggest exemple for this is cycling, in France there are a lot of pro-cyclist, but a lot of france cyclist only compete in small tournaments inside of France. This is resulting in a weak pool of cyclist that can't compete in the bigger tournaments because they are not used to the skill difference being so big. And it takes time to adapt to a certain skill level.
On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote: I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
I agree with that part as well, but: 1. he can't tell anything to a particular tournament; if the tournament wants to be global, then it's up to the local players to prefer to play in local tournaments if they can't compete on a global level yet; 2. the problem he describes would not be resolved by keeping the best players out, because then just the value of the tournament lowers - in terms of both money and honors. So you can't have both at the same time: avoid the best players, and get paid and honored as if you've beaten them.
I guess one conclusion is that regional SC2 around the world needs more emphasized local tournaments - that, if not on a top world level, are at the best level for the region and hyped enough for kids to want to compete in them. With this I agree - it's important to have smooth leveling in skill, to nourish the foreign communities.
I think the particular reason for the video was that Catz expected NASL/MLG to be "_the_ north american tournament", and in either case it's not, it's more like "another global tournament, held in NA". Fine, accept that definition, and look for another tournament to be the truly local one.
On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote: I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
You don't have to feel like you can win the tournament to work hard. Not every 32 teams in the World cup thinks they can win it, but they all have a goal, be it round of 16, quarterfinal or others. Set a goal, and train and work towards it!
We could say that Catz minimum goal at that MLG was his main stage match with July. Yet he screwed with a no show which could be partially blamed on MLG.
Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it?
On June 17 2011 19:21 tdt wrote: Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it?
Was said a million time before... The koreans don't take out sponsorship form USA. They actually are adding it. The companies that are interested in USA market wont sponsor the koreans that sometimes show themselves. They would go for NA based player that is market as a player who wants to take on koreans.
I still cant understand why people cant understand the simple idea that most of sponsors want to advertise in certain region. You think Stride gum would sponor a korean when their main market is USA and that korean would come for tournament in US like 2-3 times a year?
On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote: I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
Esports is brutal, it isn't as developed as other real sports, if he can't do it perhaps he shouldn't treat it as a career, because he is being unrealistic.
catz is being realistic. you even back up his point with saying esports are brutal and aren't as developed, except you are wrong in generalizing esports. korean esports, specifically brood war, are as developed as other real sports, and the korean sc2 scene benefits greatly from BW's development in many ways.
Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it?
It has less to do with infrastructure and more to do with lifestyle. If we get to the point where foreign pros are practicing 8+ hours a day and still getting crushed because of lack of team houses and coaches then he may have a point, right now though most foreign "pros" openly admit they aren't practicing 8+ hours a day or in some cases even close to that. Without even that base level of equality, practice hours, how can people even begin to complain that infrastructure gives an unfair advantage? (I'm not saying it doesn't, just that until you are practicing the same # of hours they are it is a bad argument to say the kind of practice they are getting is what gives them an advantage)
Secondly, if Catz really wants to stick to his stance he, and all of complexity if they feel the same, can decline to come to events with koreans. The fact is, the spectators want to see the top koreans vs. foreigners, so the only way to force change on the competitions is for the foreigners (players) to back out if koreans are coming. If they aren't willing to do that it is pointless for them to complain.
On June 17 2011 19:21 tdt wrote: Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it?
Was said a million time before... The koreans don't take out sponsorship form USA. They actually are adding it. The companies that are interested in USA market wont sponsor the koreans that sometimes show themselves. They would go for NA based player that is market as a player who wants to take on koreans.
I still cant understand why people cant understand the simple idea that most of sponsors want to advertise in certain region. You think Stride gum would sponor a korean when their main market is USA and that korean would come for tournament in US like 2-3 times a year?
I don't agree. Who wants to sponsor 5th best? Not coke who sponsors IM. Stride gum? Never heard of them, low rent district I'm sure. Bottom line is inviting Koreans is like demanding our NBA players get a shot at all EU basketball championships and their money without going though season and qualification. If Koreans had to do that they would not be here.
The Koreans keep the foreign scene honest. I'm not really interested in watching sub-par, under-trained Americans duke it out over and over. While they may take some prize money away from the foreigners, they also bring more attention to the scene/tournaments in return. It's give & take, not just take take take from the Koreans.
overall the nasl needs viewers to balance out its prize pool, i know if there was suddenly no koreans in nasl ever again i would definately never pay for the nasl again and i do pay now.
ultimately i dont think the prize pools are large enough to validate your argument and it ignores the fact that a NA player could beat the best koreans and get a huge salary increase next contract negotiation. we could do the same thing to them if we were actually better than them which id like to see more than anything.
Just want to say that I share Catz's view to most extent, while agreeing that the economics of esport is much more to do with fanbase and publicity, at least more so in the future.
Here is another way to see the rationale. Just been SC2 fans, and watch free streams of matches, all of us are already "sponsoring" esport through advertising. As interest in SC2 grows, and fanbase grows, the more people there is interested in SC2, the bigger the advertising deals are going to be for pro teams, and they will have more resource. At the present, and maybe for sometime to come yet, the fact is, for a significant number of pro-gamers outside Korea, prize money from tournies are their major source of income. Therefore it does not help the talents on ourside to ask them to compete against Koreans for all the big prizes, when our pro-gamers have not had that level of support yet. To put it to a crude exagerated analogy, America wish to develop soccer, they do not fund their home teams very well, instead puts up all the funding in massive prize tournies of home teams against Brazil!
For those of us who want the pro scene to grow outside Korea, we should at least first agree on one thing, the Koreans are better right now not because they are inately smarter than the rest of the world, it is because they have better infrastructure to train and have been training longer. If we wish for the talents outside of Korea to grow, and to match those in Korea, then pro-gaming organizations outside Korea should first look to support these talents. Of course, one need to from time to time compete with the Koreans if not for anything, as a matter of training. However, the focus of the support should be on our local talents, if we want them to have a good chance at competing against the Koreans!
On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote: I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
Esports is brutal, it isn't as developed as other real sports, if he can't do it perhaps he shouldn't treat it as a career, because he is being unrealistic.
catz is being realistic. you even back up his point with saying esports are brutal and aren't as developed, except you are wrong in generalizing esports. korean esports, specifically brood war, are as developed as other real sports, and the korean sc2 scene benefits greatly from BW's development in many ways.
Except when i'm talking about Catz, i'm talking about esports at North America, how is Korea developed scene anything to do with his career i'm talking about here? His team already struggles with sponsorship, how is he realistic when he expect leagues with decent prize pool for non top tier players like him.
On June 17 2011 19:38 tdt wrote: I don't agree. Who wants to sponsor 5th best? Not coke who sponsors IM. Stride gum? Never heard of them, low rent district I'm sure. Bottom line is inviting Koreans is like demanding our NBA players get a shot at all EU basketball championships and their money without going though season and qualification. If Koreans had to do that they would not be here.
Not to alienate anybody here with the economics but Foreign Countries is becoming a bigger market for American companies to exploit so it makes sense for American companies to try and become known in areas where they want to conquer.
But that's not to say that foreigner (starcraft) teams aren't sponsored. Razer and Steelseries are the two biggest names in team sponsoring right now. Because gaming is becoming a bigger market in the West, it makes sense for gaming companies (and computer companies like Intel) to sponsor foreigner teams.
It's not a matter of "which team is better", it's a matter of "what makes sense."
Somewhat true. But I don't understand how it will ever develop if Koreans win everything. Americans never will get the packed houses, salary, a pure gaming time without success in first place. Koreans already have it developed over 12 years slowly from infancy and lateral move into SC2. It's like a chicken before egg thing.
Holy shit man there are so many posts detailing how it will develop regardless and BECAUSE Koreans are competing, go read them and you'll understand or not agree with it.
Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it?
It has less to do with infrastructure and more to do with lifestyle. If we get to the point where foreign pros are practicing 8+ hours a day and still getting crushed because of lack of team houses and coaches then he may have a point, right now though most foreign "pros" openly admit they aren't practicing 8+ hours a day or in some cases even close to that. Without even that base level of equality, practice hours, how can people even begin to complain that infrastructure gives an unfair advantage? (I'm not saying it doesn't, just that until you are practicing the same # of hours they are it is a bad argument to say the kind of practice they are getting is what gives them an advantage)
Secondly, if Catz really wants to stick to his stance he, and all of complexity if they feel the same, can decline to come to events with koreans. The fact is, the spectators want to see the top koreans vs. foreigners, so the only way to force change on the competitions is for the foreigners (players) to back out if koreans are coming. If they aren't willing to do that it is pointless for them to complain.
Somewhat true. But I don't understand how it will ever develop if Koreans win everything. Americans never will get the packed houses, salary, a pure gaming time without success in first place. Koreans already have it developed over 12 years slowly from infancy and lateral move into SC2. It's like a chicken before egg thing.
If there is a viable market for US-only tournaments then those will appear, and there are alot of smaller ones already. To me it only seems natural that the big tournaments want players from around the globe so they appeal to a global audience.
The big advantage ESPORTS has compared to alot of other sports is that it´s easy to broadcast everywhere over the internet and players can compete with others worldwide(with some hometurf advantage), most other sports have to deal with the limitations that come with TV-broadcasting and the logistics of getting everyone to the same location.
I can understand Catz perspective that he thinks he would make more money and get more attention without Koreans in the tournaments, because that´s what it boils down to. I hope more people start thinking like Naniwa, Thorzain and FXO instead, they go to Korea because they want to compete with the best. In the long run that´s the kind of mentality that will earn you the big money, striving to be the best, not trying to avoid Koreans because they are too good. Imagine what will happen if some foreigner goes and wins GSL, I bet that person will earn some big money from sponsors.
On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote: I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
Yeah let's give money to someone who hasn't worked as hard as others to be the best...so they will work harder? wait what
On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote: I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
Esports is brutal, it isn't as developed as other real sports, if he can't do it perhaps he shouldn't treat it as a career, because he is being unrealistic.
catz is being realistic. you even back up his point with saying esports are brutal and aren't as developed, except you are wrong in generalizing esports. korean esports, specifically brood war, are as developed as other real sports, and the korean sc2 scene benefits greatly from BW's development in many ways.
Except when i'm talking about Catz, i'm talking about esports at North America, how is Korea developed scene anything to do with his career i'm talking about here? His team already struggles with sponsorship, how is he realistic when he expect leagues with decent prize pool for non top tier players like him.
catz's concerns don't have to apply to just him, and he isn't saying he'd be taking tournaments if the koreans weren't there. as i understand his argument, koreans being in the tournament does not benefit the NA playerbase in the longrun in terms of growth and improvement.
also, most of root, including catz, was acquired by complexity, which has sponsors (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/CompLexity).
Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it?
It has less to do with infrastructure and more to do with lifestyle. If we get to the point where foreign pros are practicing 8+ hours a day and still getting crushed because of lack of team houses and coaches then he may have a point, right now though most foreign "pros" openly admit they aren't practicing 8+ hours a day or in some cases even close to that. Without even that base level of equality, practice hours, how can people even begin to complain that infrastructure gives an unfair advantage? (I'm not saying it doesn't, just that until you are practicing the same # of hours they are it is a bad argument to say the kind of practice they are getting is what gives them an advantage)
Secondly, if Catz really wants to stick to his stance he, and all of complexity if they feel the same, can decline to come to events with koreans. The fact is, the spectators want to see the top koreans vs. foreigners, so the only way to force change on the competitions is for the foreigners (players) to back out if koreans are coming. If they aren't willing to do that it is pointless for them to complain.
Somewhat true. But I don't understand how it will ever develop if Koreans win everything. Americans never will get the packed houses, salary, a pure gaming time without success in first place. Koreans already have it developed over 12 years slowly from infancy and lateral move into SC2. It's like a chicken before egg thing.
The problem is that it wont develop. At best it would stagnate with no stimulus to perform better than average.
This is an argument about protectionism vs free trade.
It's true that setting up tariffs or banning certain imports (here the exclusion of korean professional gamers) can help a small economy to grow faster (here the quality of North America professional gamers). However that is not what is best for the consumer, who is here an international consumer from NA, EU, KR etc etc. The comparison is with buying badly made but home-produced products with the expectation that eventually through enough investment that product will improve in quality. Altertatively you can buy better foreign made products and know that that means competition will be extremely severe. But it is severe for the companies (here NA professional gamers) and not for a typical consumer (for example, a european fan of MC).
The OP is not completely wrong or misguided, but it is incomplete and misleading.
And to bring it back to SC2 alone. Just think if NASL had included only NA players and excluded all others. The NASL would have been a disaster because it is only the quality of some of its players that has saved it. Do you think people would have watched it for its casting and production values alone? No of course not. Those parts of the NASL have remained questionable even despite some improvement from what was an atrocious start.
On June 17 2011 11:53 Boblhead wrote: I'm sure this was posted on TL before. AskJoshy did a whole bunch of these kinds of videos.
Yeah I agree, this was way before MLG Columbus anyway, so the whole "CatZ vs July" match disqualification is pretty much invalid here when it comes per this video.
If people are curious on why Koreans are usually better in gaming than foreigners is because esports is very well developed in Korea, and mainly Korean teenagers or adults as well resort to playing games in their spare time (LOTS of netcafe everywhere in Korea) while the foreigners will tend to do more outdoor/other activities at a younger age. Also a better developed Esports community. It's obviously not the genes.
A lot of the foreigners need to realise pro gaming in Korea is never encouraged. When I say never, I mean NEVER. Majority of the Asian parents are very conservative. They want their child to go through university and study hard and get respected jobs or a well paid jobs. Stupid as this might be, earning a lot of money is very important in Korea. As money has very high value in life. (It's ridiculous I know).
No parents in mind will want their kids to become a pro gamer, not just because it's risky and competitive, it's also not as acknowledged as a real profession unless you are truly the best player in Korea/World. Even with the risks involved there are a few that decides to train and become a pro gamer even with the risks because they are just so passionate about the game. I believe this is the reason why Korea have such high calibre players. It's an arduous task being the best, but the Koreans manage to do it every time, not because they have better genes for gaming but due to the hard training and probably efficient training as well due to coaches and team houses. Korean esports had to start somewhere. It didn't just magically appear. Now Koreans take pride in their esports community and mainly because they are the best in Starcraft.
If you want starcraft esports growing in the US community (which I already do believe it is) we need to see more US players doing well in tournaments competing with the BEST.
For the sake of argument Idra or Incontrol beats Koreans multiple times and takes the championship from the Koreans in the GSL. They would be regarded as a "Hero" in the foreign community. And possibly the growth of starcraft esports in US or other countries. Cause many Top Korean players would come over to the west because they want to compete and beat the best.
I already believe esports in growing everywhere, and MLG certainly proved this as there were many Korean viewers watching MLG, competing with the best foreign players. The only thing left to even make starcraft2 more global is to see more foreigners doing better, competing par to par with the Koreans.
If you think the new potential pro gamers requires motivation/glamour to join the esports business you're wrong. It's all about passion and hard work to be the best, I can certainly name a lot of players in Korea training hard to become the best risking everything. Look at Nestea. Please don't say he had sucess in 2v2 BW. 2v2 was a failure and never really regarded as a pro gamer. He never succeeded as a BW pro gamer. Even with the utter failure he had in BW, he still became in pro gamer in sc2 and to become debatable the best zerg in the world. Talk about passion for the game!
If Catz or any other foreigners want to see esports growing in their countries, go beat the best. You are a Pro gamer, concentrate on your job and become the best at it. The esports community should be following the country which they are the best, or regarded as the best. The reason why I find starcraft 2 far more interesting than BW is because there are a lot of skilled foreigners in the scene nuking it out with the Koreans. I certainly would like to see more foreign heroes doing well in GSL or in tournaments like MLG where the best players are invited. I'll def be rooting for Thoz and Naniwa in Code A, hoping they'll make it into Code S. How exciting would that be?
And please don't compare soccer and sc2. The fact that you can compete offline from anywhere in the world is really a bonus, and probably if top soccer players could somehow magically play in matches without the hassle of moving from different country to country, who would move?
On June 17 2011 20:00 Liudo wrote: This is an argument about protectionism vs free trade.
It's true that setting up tariffs or banning certain imports (here the exclusion of korean professional gamers) can help a small economy to grow faster (here the quality of North America professional gamers). However that is not what is best for the consumer, who is here an international consumer from NA, EU, KR etc etc. The comparison is with buying badly made but home-produced products with the expectation that eventually through enough investment that product will improve in quality. Altertatively you can buy better foreign made products and know that that means competition will be extremely severe. But it is severe for the companies (here NA professional gamers) and not for a typical consumer (for example, a european fan of MC).
The OP is not completely wrong or misguided, but it is incomplete and misleading.
And to bring it back to SC2 alone. Just think if NASL had included only NA players and excluded all others. The NASL would have been a disaster because it is only the quality of some of its players that has saved it. Do you think people would have watched it for its casting and production values alone? No of course not. Those parts of the NASL have remained questionable even despite some improvement from what was an atrocious start.
i think you're right about the "what if" situation for the NASL and inviting NA only players. the IPL is good example of a foreigner-only (not restrictive on purpose afaik) tournament that had very high production value and was very popular, though.
the comparison you made between this discussion and the economic one is interesting
CatZ fails to realize, that foreign tournaments without Koreans will have less viewers (you can try to argue about that, but in most cases this should be true). Having less viewers means sponsors are not as interested which means less price money... so yeah. You could argue that even if Koreans take home price money, overall there is still more price money for the foreign players.
On June 17 2011 14:49 XenoX101 wrote: For those that are arguing that Esports makes money from their viewerbase, I feel you are missing the point of this thread. Yes it helps the viewership to bring the best players from all over the world to play in the tournament, but it does not help any of the players themselves.
Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?
It's admittedly quite exciting to watch your favourite korean players dominating in these big tournaments, but we have to remember that behind every winner there are umpteen more losers, and how fun is it really to watch . And when it is so convenient and easy for the best players (who happen to be koreans for SC2) in the world to casually join any of these tournament (its free, essentially), they will not hesitate to take up the opportunity and they will win. The chances of you winning despite all the effort you put in are slim to nothing if you are consistently facing these players no matter how big or small the tournament is. So given this would you make a living working 8+ hours a day if you had a 0.1% chance (and for most players we're being generous here) of earning more than a bare wage that you can't live off?
It's like an amateur mountain climber attempting to climb Everest, this is why Divisions are necessary. This is why when you ladder you aren't instantly paired with IdrA or KiWiKaKi, they are too far up in skill for you to have even the slightest chance of winning by more than accident. It would be hugely unmotivating and would not help you learn at all because anything you did right, would be entirely overshadowed by what you did wrong (which may not even be much but enough for the best players to beat you). There's a reason you don't start school at university doing a PhD, students need the appropriate environment to progress in, one that is above their level but only so much as that they can be challenged.
With this said I do believe there should still be some global leagues held in America, Europe and all over, but these should not be the only leagues giving a pay out to pro gamers. Local and national leagues need to exist like in every other sport so that up and coming players have a healthy environment to train while making a sustainable wage in winning tournaments that they can win, so that they don't spend 8+ hours a day training for nothing.
I feel like you're one of the few who understood my argument, instead of attacking the reasoning. Please read what this guy had to say.
And for those saying that this topic is bad for the forums (thanks for PMs, I prefer to take some issues to private), remember this isn't a whine about PvZ balance, a spam thread, meme or any other content of questionable use. Such topics do not contribute much, right? Well this isn't one of them. Whether any argument is true or false, it is always good in the way that it promotes discussion, no?
On June 17 2011 20:00 Liudo wrote: This is an argument about protectionism vs free trade.
It's true that setting up tariffs or banning certain imports (here the exclusion of korean professional gamers) can help a small economy to grow faster (here the quality of North America professional gamers). However that is not what is best for the consumer, who is here an international consumer from NA, EU, KR etc etc. The comparison is with buying badly made but home-produced products with the expectation that eventually through enough investment that product will improve in quality. Altertatively you can buy better foreign made products and know that that means competition will be extremely severe. But it is severe for the companies (here NA professional gamers) and not for a typical consumer (for example, a european fan of MC).
The OP is not completely wrong or misguided, but it is incomplete and misleading.
Take it a step further.
Historically, economies that sheltered themselves from foreign competition (mostly communist and third world nations) falter and find that they have crappy industries, shoddy goods and slow growth. Protecting themselves from "foreign exploration" added up to stagnation and backwardness.
Not comparing foreigner's tournament winnings, rather overall player skill. It hurts the players when their ability level is not being tested, it hurts the viewership because we all want the BEST possible games, and it hurts tournaments when the viewership is hurt.
And honestly, there shouldn't be that much sympathy given to the Professional gamers when they're responsible for practicing playing competing and meeting the Koreans at the highest level of Starcraft when they are allowed to be sponsored and play full time.
On June 17 2011 20:20 MidnightSun001 wrote: I feel like you're one of the few who understood my argument, instead of attacking the reasoning. Please read what this guy had to say.
Just because you made an argument doesn't mean that it makes it the correct one, that we aren't allowed to dispute and attack reasoning. People understand the argument, they just don't AGREE with it. Sorry if we can't all give you nice warm fuzzies and have 1000 posts saying "yes I completely agree".
Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?
You can substitute Koreans with former BW players (like Catz) and you have the same argument. How is it fair that all the hundreds of master league players out there who do dedicate the 8+ hours a day to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - former BW players? Who have access and friendships with other highly skilled players, know people in the scene, have years of experience, may already be on a professional team.
How are these master league players who did not play BW supposed to compete and make a living without this inherent unfair advantage of not playing BW?
How are these master league players who did not play BW supposed to compete and make a living without this inherent unfair advantage of not playing BW?
But if they're not genuinely good enough, should they be allowed to?
An ideal solution would be a mass influx of tournaments like you see on the ATP Pro Tour. One person can't compete in all the tournaments, and sometimes injury or personal matters get in the way as well. That acts to spread the money around, but you still have the Grand Slams to show off the best of the best. Nadal, Federer, Murray, Djokovic etc. also compete in the minor tournaments leading up to big events.
You don't hear anyone in Tennis complaining about the quality of tournaments (but there's tons of people bitching about the NASL).
What is this idea that gamers should get what they want. The funny thing is, if CaTz was winning tournaments and was a known top tier pro, he wouldn't be saying any of this. You think NaniWa complained about koreans, he wants to compete with the best.
Thorzain was recognized as a top player by MC.
Tournaments will invite Koreans because it will attract more viewers and make it more global. MLG wouldn't of been that big if none of the Koreans were there. Catz has an argument that comes off as more of a whining vent rather than an understanding of the situation.
Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?
You can substitute Koreans with former BW players (like Catz) and you have the same argument. How is it fair that all the hundreds of master league players out there who do dedicate the 8+ hours a day to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - former BW players? Who have access and friendships with other highly skilled players, know people in the scene, have years of experience, may already be on a professional team.
How are these master league players who did not play BW supposed to compete and make a living without this inherent unfair advantage of not playing BW?
By working harder.You don't get better than someone who is already established by working less than them.
It is generally accepted that a league with koreans + foreigners generate far more fan interest than a league with foreigners only, assuming everything else is equal (production, casters, time of exhibition etc).
So the problem of having a league with foreigners only is that a competitor league could easily invite a mixed setting of players and win the competition for the fan base in the long run.
I can't help but interpret as "whining" any players position in protectionism; I admire competitors for their desire to be the best. It is impossible to respect a top tier league that refuses to accepet harder competition in order to protect the interest of players that live in the same country.
If foreigners can't endure korean competition, than maybe they don't deserve the money or attention anyway.
1st Tier of competition's - Craft Cup Lite - cause of the pricepool its at most semi-pros - Craft Cup - same as above with a bit more pros - Some Silver, Gold, Platinum Cups
2nd Tier - Zotac Cup - a bit more semi-pros and pros - 4 players cup - Competo Cup
3rd Tier ESL Online Stuff - Dailymotion -Go4sc2 and so on
3.5 Tier -Go4sc2 Monthly Finals - other online invite tournaments
4 Tier (OFFLINE COMPETITIONS) - the ones without koreans - example ESL IEM Europe - EPS
5th Tier (GOD TIER, koreans participating) - Dreamhack and ???
So as a player you chose on what lvl of competition you play.
Now lets look at that pyramid. 5th Tier competition get a lot of coverage due to koreans participating and pricepool. People who watch get interested in Sc2 and its competitive scene and start playing in Tier 1-2 competitions. Also sponsors that want to get some publicity due to SC2 start by sponsoring Tier 1-2 competition or setting their own tier 3.5 cups.
I find it strange that this discussion revolves around the question of where the price money is going. I don't think most pro players are able to finance themselves from tournament winnings and this is I think true for any sport.
You need a team that hires you and gives you a regular income. The winnings are the reward for your hard work, but it won't pay the bills on a regular basis. A really good player might be able to attract personal sponsors but lets disregard that for now.
So in order for the scene to grow what is needed are more teams with a good budget. And for that sponsors are necessary. Sponsors are attracted by a large amount of viewers because sponsoring is just a different form of advertisement.
So the main question is, how can the viewership of SCII be expanded and how can more people be attracted to watch a tournament. In my opinion it is a good for a league to have a lot of international players.
The comments from Korean boards here on TL in response to the latest MLG showed how much they enjoyed watching a truly international tournament. And I'm quite sure organizers are very aware of this as can be seen by the MLG/GSL exchange program.
Another question is of course which league will in the end become the "dominant" league. For example if you look at soccer then there are a lot of leagues around the world (Yes, I know NA is in regard to soccer a bit special) but the prime league for sure is the champion leagues which is compromised of European teams that have a lot of international players.
So in the end the reason for the champions league to be the prime league in the world is because it attracts the best of the best from all over the world (Yes there are historical reasons for that and it boils down to the insane salaries European clubs are willing to dish out for top players).
Still the point stand that I think it will be beneficial to NASL/MLG or even GSL to try to attract all of the top players in the world. The league that manages to do that, will become the most important one and attract the most viewers.
Just a personal point as an avid viewer in the end... I would like to see a strong European league because time shift sucks
Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?
You can substitute Koreans with former BW players (like Catz) and you have the same argument. How is it fair that all the hundreds of master league players out there who do dedicate the 8+ hours a day to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - former BW players? Who have access and friendships with other highly skilled players, know people in the scene, have years of experience, may already be on a professional team.
How are these master league players who did not play BW supposed to compete and make a living without this inherent unfair advantage of not playing BW?
By working harder.You don't get better than someone who is already established by working less than them.
He was being sarcastic. It's the same bad argument Catz makes. No one deserves to be "protected" from players better than them.
There's much simpler solution to keeping the money in NA than banning the Koreans, foreigners just need to start winning instead of whining.
They argue that the system is against them, just think about that argument next time you see one of them coaching, casting or fooling around on a stream.
On June 17 2011 20:55 Goibon wrote: I might agree with Catz on one condition: If there were national teams in SC2.
Until such a time when that's a big deal, then i simply wont watch tournaments which intentionally lower their level by restricting entrants.
I will not watch an inferior product. It's bad enough having bad casters, but bad players too? Please.
that's one of the things I miss the most from broodwar, apparently only Latin America seems to do a lot of Nationwars, and even tough (no offense homies<3) team Peru kinda sucks, I enjoy a lot playing in those clanwars, the streams in spanish have like 100 maybe 200 viewers for those nationwars, but god does it feel good lol. My point is, again, that exactly, if you want the players to succeed and become better and for the gap not to grow gigantic as it did in broodwar, then you must give the players realistic goals and motivations to work towards.
Its been brought up that if I was naniwa or thorzain or a more successful player I wouldn't be saying this, I disagree, I am not speaking in behalf of myself, wether koreans come or not, at this point in time my chances to win anything are slim, but it would surely motivate me to play more, more seriously and become better if there were more localized tournaments, germany does it and it works wonders, sweeden has dreamhack, altough they work off of invites recently too, its the biggest lan in the world, wether you want to see that as an example or a plus, Swedish people have in general and in most games, done great in comparison to other nations, im talking computer games in general, not just starcraft 2. I am only voicing my opinion on what I believe would be the best way to approach esports and its growth in this hemisphere, both to make it viable as a career for players (therefore creating better, more competitive players) and more of a 'sport' feel for fans.
This is why I agree with you Nationwars are amazing, being part of a National Team feels amazing, and even things like that where pride matters as much as money, are great motivation for players to become better. take idk, 'OdiN' for example, he's a Peruvian player in the Peruvian National team that you likely have never heard about, he's not half bad, with National Teams and Nationwars systems in place, OdiN wouldn't have to practice to be the best in the world, but surpassing Fenix or myself would be a MUCH closer more realistic goal for him. My point is, in order for esports to grow arround here, we need goals that are reachable, motivations for the players and a fanbase that follows not just based on individual skill but based on things like national pride as well (note for retards who think I say shit cause im a selfish bastard: im from Peru so i'd prob be the least benefited person by this as the sc2 following in peru is not huge)
I'm not gonna lie, most known players in the US and EU can easily make a living off of the game right now, based on fame and knowledge, Lessons and Streaming are great for things like that. You can probably make a lot more money trying to give as many lessons a day as you can, as you could investing the same amount of time AND winning a huge tournament. But as players, everyone who got into this, got into this because of the passion we have for the game, we want to PLAY! and for idiots saying "ok then go play and become the best and stop whining" to become the best: you need to play full time, no job, no nothing, without proper motivation and Esports allocated elsewhere, meaning Sponsors are likely to go elsewhere too... who's gonna pay the bills?
there are a lot of factors that contribute into this and the reason I ever made that video is because im not afraid to speak my mind, I know of a lot of 'pros' that share my pov, idk if they are brave enough to admit it, but I don't mind being the evil dood here who is apparently a racist and a coward l o l. I could do a bunch of things, I could work in my field of study, I could do a lot more lessons and live comfortably... I believe I have the knowledge and the brain to become one of the best players in the world, I won't go HuK and say Im gonna be the next boxer <3 :D but I was proud of him when he said that, he has the financial backup from TL to likely be able to practice all day and focus on JUST gaming, not everyone does though.
Im going back to drinking now , have a wonderful morning.
On June 17 2011 20:00 Liudo wrote: This is an argument about protectionism vs free trade.
It's true that setting up tariffs or banning certain imports (here the exclusion of korean professional gamers) can help a small economy to grow faster (here the quality of North America professional gamers). However that is not what is best for the consumer, who is here an international consumer from NA, EU, KR etc etc. The comparison is with buying badly made but home-produced products with the expectation that eventually through enough investment that product will improve in quality. Altertatively you can buy better foreign made products and know that that means competition will be extremely severe. But it is severe for the companies (here NA professional gamers) and not for a typical consumer (for example, a european fan of MC).
The OP is not completely wrong or misguided, but it is incomplete and misleading.
Take it a step further.
Historically, economies that sheltered themselves from foreign competition (mostly communist and third world nations) falter and find that they have crappy industries, shoddy goods and slow growth. Protecting themselves from "foreign exploration" added up to stagnation and backwardness.
Not comparing foreigner's tournament winnings, rather overall player skill. It hurts the players when their ability level is not being tested, it hurts the viewership because we all want the BEST possible games, and it hurts tournaments when the viewership is hurt.
And honestly, there shouldn't be that much sympathy given to the Professional gamers when they're responsible for practicing playing competing and meeting the Koreans at the highest level of Starcraft when they are allowed to be sponsored and play full time.
And what exactly makes you both think we have to paint things in black and white? Under what assumption do we have to apply absolute terms? Where exactly was it stated that Koreans should never be allowed to attend any tournament?
If you have the biggest names in western sc2 and asian sc2 you are obviously going to track a bigger viewer base which means more revenue, possibly bigger sponsors and on top of this you are not trying to do a bw in separating the scenes, who really cares if they take away the prize fund :E
Well the infrastructure just isn't in NA/Europe yet, if progaming wasn't so much like a part time job it might really take off and you get a lot foreign players playing amongst themselves to get better rather than to get money. Now if there was a competition in NA, where you could place in the R64-32 and still get $1000-2000USD each month (a la GSL), there would be a lot less worry about how to pay the bills and find sponsors. 1 GSL championship is worth $100,000 USD, a MLG tournament with a fairly hard bracket admittedly is only worth $5,000 to $10,000 and not much guranteed money for people who place even in the top 10 or top 5.
I think what CatZ is trying to argue is that if Koreans take top 3 everytime, it's just pocket change for the foreign pros to win, but if Koreans place average in the GSL they get decent cash regardless, not to mention sponsorships. Either way it revolves around money, you need that money to develop the scene so you can get these nice big prize pools. It sort of infant industry argument but it was validity. Obviously there's too many ways to argue this, hopefully in time the scene will grow by itself and the problem goes away. If not there's always SC3 >.>
From my perspective I can understand CatZ but I would not watch NASL if there were just NA-Players participating... really. You cant announce a 100k tournament and then just let "bad" players play in it. Of course it attracts players over the world.
I think the real problem is, that the NA server is the easiest and that lowers the skill of all players playing there, even of the topplayers due to the lack of challenge and competition.
Again, If you ban all the korens, then its still pretty likely that the topfinish will be 3europeans or 2euros plus idra, thats just how it is.
Now the NASL is watchable and Iam looking forward to the finals.
I think I understand CatZ that these players are actually trying to make a living off SC2 and @ a big tournament a Korean nerd comes with his robotic skillz and smashes all of the foreigners' faces and they are left naked, feeling stupid for all those hours spent practicing to actually realize how far behind you are.
I'd like to share my opinion. As much as I love Catz and understand his point of view, I think koreans in the western sc2 scene is a huge progress.
Koreans are still that little better (as we could see in MLG) but it's very close. Those western professionals perheaps just need to train a little harder then they do now. I think that the koreans can push all those good guys in the west to become even better. One way to achieve that is the new Team Reign house where (if I understood it the right way) the circumstances will be a little like a korean pro house.
So as I said: I understand what catz is trying to say but the benefit of having koreans compete in the NASL, MLG, ... is also considerable. In terms of viewers, fans and last but not least the attention that the western scene will get from korea. It is (in my opinion) very important that korea realises that the west is close in terms of sc2 & eSports.
So catz I'm sorry to contradict you :D But I still will <3 you and watch your stream everytime I get the chance to
I couldnt agree more with Catz. Thats what I've been saying for months, dont invite koreans!!!!
It just sucks if Koreans get invited, fly over, take the prize money and leave again. They dont really contribute besides taking away the prize money. Yes maybe some hardcore fans wont watch if there are no koreans, but way more people will stop watching league if there are always koreans in the top 3 like in the IEM or MLG.
On June 17 2011 21:39 Ineffability~ wrote: I think I understand CatZ that these players are actually trying to make a living off SC2 and @ a big tournament a Korean nerd comes with his robotic skillz and smashes all of the foreigners' faces and they are left naked, feeling stupid for all those hours spent practicing to actually realize how far behind you are.
Well its a vicious cycle. Western pros: Pros train>>> play in small cups>>> make a name for themselfs in them >>> move into bigger cups >>> get a lot of fans >>>{start of earning real money} start streaming games and fool around on stream >>> do some casting gigs? >>> coaching >>> skill regresses >> lose big tournaments {end of earning money?} >>> bitch about it >> back to training
Koreans:
Train >> play in torunament >> train >> play in torunament >> [OPTIONAL]become Boxer
In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?
I think one thing that's absolutely necessary for the situation to develop and something Catz might be overlooking, is that so far it's been a two way relationship between the Korean SC2 leagues/teams and foreigner leagues/teams. As long as they continue to make their resources available to us as well, then it can still be beneficial for both sets of communities to grow together. It's not just the GSL House either, but the MLG/GSL partnership, TorcH/TSL, oGs-TL house, Rain/Twilight and lots of other things where Korean players/teams are paying attention to the West and trying to interact with us. It's not as if they're just flying in, sniping some prizes and then ignoring us.
I can understand the concern coming from BW though, where WCG's basically always felt like that and aside from eStro, there was little to no interaction from Korea and the players who did go there weren't accepted very well (unlike the TorcH/TSL thing.)
It's not the exact same situation, but I think Catz' nightmare situation would be something akin to the American/Japanese baseball relationship, where MLB teams pick out all the best players from Japan and rarely do they give anything back (besides Tom Selleck) or try to improve the Japanese baseball system. As a result, Japanese baseball is somewhat dying and more people just want to follow MLB instead of their own teams.
The two systems don't have to be on equal footing as far as infrastructure or talent goes, but the resource sharing needs to continue from both sides, and then I think Catz' worries might be a non-issue.
On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote: In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?
And try harder for what?
For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool?
Catz is completely spot on. He has the balls to say what most are thinking but are too scared of being flamed.
If CatZ wins vs lets say oGsMC than everyone will tune into catZ's next game, simple and straightforward. Look at Thorzain for example? no Growth for sort of "newer players" ? And there are several foreigner players that have a shot against the koreans (that don't live in korea) like naniwa, dimaga , white ra and so on...
On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote: In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?
And try harder for what?
For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool?
Are you implying that they're stealing the prize money? They don't "get" it, they earn it by being better. That's what "sports" should be all about. Lets stop calling it "e-sports" then if we're going to play favorites.
On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote: In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?
And try harder for what?
For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool?
Catz is completely spot on. He has the balls to say what most are thinking but are too scared of being flamed.
Lol? Koreans competing internationally is good for everybody - makes the game more entertaining to watch and makes the game more competitive. You realise no one makes their money solely off prize money outside korea? it is too unreliable to do so (ask pretty much any pro). salary + streaming + content funds it
On June 17 2011 21:27 Liquid`HayprO wrote: i always knew catz was a racist
hahahahahha <3 god I love you, you're like yoda hayder, except cuter, you always drop 3-4 words but they always crack me up <3
this time its huk that deserves that credit.
oh well, it was much funnier to picture you saying it, like that time at MLG where you stayed standing in the middle of nowhere for a minute or two to later yell "YOU BRING THE BALL!!" as a thread sort of. But I love huk so its all good, less funny tough, for sure <3
On June 17 2011 21:54 Jibba wrote: I think one thing that's absolutely necessary for the situation to develop and something Catz might be overlooking, is that so far it's been a two way relationship between the Korean SC2 leagues/teams and foreigner leagues/teams. As long as they continue to make their resources available to us as well, then it can still be beneficial for both sets of communities to grow together. It's not just the GSL House either, but the MLG/GSL partnership, TorcH/TSL, oGs-TL house, Rain/Twilight and lots of other things where Korean players/teams are paying attention to the West and trying to interact with us. It's not as if they're just flying in, sniping some prizes and then ignoring us.
I can understand the concern coming from BW though, where WCG's basically always felt like that and aside from eStro, there was little to no interaction from Korea and the players who did go there weren't accepted very well (unlike the TorcH/TSL thing.)
It's not the exact same situation, but I think Catz' nightmare situation would be something akin to the American/Japanese baseball relationship, where MLB teams pick out all the best players from Japan and rarely do they give anything back (besides Tom Selleck) or try to improve the Japanese baseball system. As a result, Japanese baseball is somewhat dying and more people just want to follow MLB instead of their own teams.
The two systems don't have to be on equal footing as far as infrastructure or talent goes, but the resource sharing needs to continue from both sides, and then I think Catz' worries might be a non-issue.
Banning Koreans from major tournaments only masks the real problem. Currently tournaments are too scattered and numerous, making it difficult for players to level up their skill as they face opponents wildly varying skill levels which also makes it difficult to gauge how good certain players are as seeing them smash nobodies doesn't tell you much.
The best thing about the Korean system is the best players have to continuously face each other. There is no Code B/A/S system in the foreign scene, and I think having so many tournaments actually hurts the scene as it spreads the best players too thin.
I think it was a stupid explanation and heres my reason
I pay for tournaments for the best players! Plain and simple. I wouldn't have bought a mlg pass if there were no koreans. I'm not saying people either than koreans suck but some of the best games I have seen are from koreans.
I've lost all respect to catz
want to win money train harder and terrible excuse just terrible
I understand what Catz is saying, but from a viewer standpoint, I think a lot of people enjoy having Koreans in the west tournaments. It makes the competition much more complex and interesting to mix in some Koreans into the tournaments, it makes for some great games. From a viewer standpoint, I would like to see the highest level of games, and it would be unfair for Koreans to be excluded because of where they come from. If the Korean players are willing to have the plane flight to the foreign tournaments, than they should be able to. But I do disagree with how some Koreans were already seeded to the championship bracket without earning it. Just the way how I feel.
I don't really understand one of the points he mentions where he doesn't want koreans in the league because they have a chance at winning the tournament. It may or may not generate more revenues that way, depending, he wants the advertise big leagues to be exclusively to non koreans. Just like the analogy he used about what would happen if you tossed a not as accomplished team vs the big dogs, yes you will probably lose more often(still have a chance) but it will help them improve because they are playing vs people who are potentially better than they are, they won't improve much if they are playing no-bodies everyday, it might be a rewarding feeling if you win but it doesn't mean anything if you can't beat anyone who is potentially better than you.
In terms of the growth of e-sports in the west, it could go either way. On one side you can see the die hard western fans, who will most likely still watch the tournament although they disapprove of the koreans like Catz, and on the other, you have fans that are die hard korean fans who would like to see them participate in the league, and in the middle of all this you have people who just wants to see good matches, which the koreans have shown repeatedly. Although they didn't really want to see something like July plow through the open bracket, and that might be discouraging to some players.
^^ Although it may be discouraging, the great ones will over come adversity and say 'I will get him next time' and practice even harder so that the next time won't be a repeat of what happened.
While the losers will say 'Oh well, we can't beat them' or 'We shouldn't be playing them / We have no chance'.
This is true throughout all sports, and when shit hits the fan you will see who is a winner and who is a loser.
Catz said something along the lines of 'we need someway to compete, we can still compete against the koreans, but for how long?'
Does the koreans have a natural born talent that makes them good at starcraft? The answer is no, but they put in long hours everyday to become champions, they have the desire to become the very best, if there is someone with the desire to do that in the west, then they will practice like them or even harder and they will do well.
People in the past who have practice and it has shown off, all though they haven't won it all, people like Jinro, Huk, and Idra <-(even b4 sc2) has around a 50% win ratio vs the koreans, which shows that they can step up to the competition, unlike the people who get stompped and continues to get stompped on because they like to talk but not live up to the competition and train their asses off.
On June 17 2011 22:27 gosu86 wrote: I think it was a stupid explanation and heres my reason
I pay for tournaments for the best players! Plain and simple. I wouldn't have bought a mlg pass if there were no koreans. I'm not saying people either than koreans suck but some of the best games I have seen are from koreans.
I've lost all respect to catz
want to win money train harder and terrible excuse just terrible
Basically, this is my opinion too. There are people now, who are living off from SC2 OUTSIDE korea. That's a huge thing! Those people are incredible lucky, to live in such an age. So why can't they compete (well, aside from the obvious ones, like Idra) with the koreans, if they have absolutely nothing to do besides improving themselves? Can a pro answer me this?
On June 17 2011 21:54 Jibba wrote: I think one thing that's absolutely necessary for the situation to develop and something Catz might be overlooking, is that so far it's been a two way relationship between the Korean SC2 leagues/teams and foreigner leagues/teams. As long as they continue to make their resources available to us as well, then it can still be beneficial for both sets of communities to grow together. It's not just the GSL House either, but the MLG/GSL partnership, TorcH/TSL, oGs-TL house, Rain/Twilight and lots of other things where Korean players/teams are paying attention to the West and trying to interact with us. It's not as if they're just flying in, sniping some prizes and then ignoring us.
I can understand the concern coming from BW though, where WCG's basically always felt like that and aside from eStro, there was little to no interaction from Korea and the players who did go there weren't accepted very well (unlike the TorcH/TSL thing.)
It's not the exact same situation, but I think Catz' nightmare situation would be something akin to the American/Japanese baseball relationship, where MLB teams pick out all the best players from Japan and rarely do they give anything back (besides Tom Selleck) or try to improve the Japanese baseball system. As a result, Japanese baseball is somewhat dying and more people just want to follow MLB instead of their own teams.
The two systems don't have to be on equal footing as far as infrastructure or talent goes, but the resource sharing needs to continue from both sides, and then I think Catz' worries might be a non-issue.
This is also why im a fan of Naniwa and Thorzain, and hell, team FOX. Instead of making a video, that says somthing like, they are to good, so they shouldnt be allowed to take part in my tournaments. They step up, work hard, goes to Korea, makes an effort, so that they can actully take them on. Ill be cheering them on, all i can, at my screen, ill watch their streams, and ill be their fanboy. Why? Cause they have an awsome attitude, and i really respect that.
On June 17 2011 22:27 gosu86 wrote: I think it was a stupid explanation and heres my reason
I pay for tournaments for the best players! Plain and simple. I wouldn't have bought a mlg pass if there were no koreans. I'm not saying people either than koreans suck but some of the best games I have seen are from koreans.
I've lost all respect to catz
want to win money train harder and terrible excuse just terrible
I agree to this. It`s not all about the players, it`s about the fans and the tournament organisators (more koreans => more viewers => more revenue).
It`s surely true that its more difficult for foreigners to earn money this way. But this makes for more competition and motivation which will help foreigners catch up to koreans (eventually). It`s all working now, we get foreign team houses, etc.
"E-Sports" in the west have not developed to the point where tournament organizers have the luxury of being choosy. Having the Koreans at MLG, or IEM increases the audience thereby increasing ad revenues. Increased ad revenues can eventually lead to larger prize pools.
I don't really think that MC, MMA, and Losira really cared much about winning the $14k grand prize at MLG. Honest to god truth is that they did MLG a favor by coming over to play.
But they also did themselves a favor. This is not a zero sum game yet where the audience is choosing between pepsi and coke (MLG, or GSL). A lot of MMA fans were created at MLG, as were a lot of Ret fans, Idra fans, and Slush fans. More importantly a lot of MLG fans were created that day, and maybe some GSL fans as well.
Most importantly a lot of Starcraft fans were created that day, and if you ever want western e-sports to have a "Grand Prize" of more than $14k, a lot more are going to have to be created.
I'm not asking MC to turn pepsi into coke, I just want him to get more people to drink the cola whatever the brand may be.
I'm an economist by the way, and the OP makes a number of simplifications that he should have addressed. Trade neither is a zero sum game. Placing quantity restrictions on imports, or protecting industry in any way may be better for domestic firms (producers, in this case players), but has a tendency to lead to deteriorating product quality. As long as "the best" are present at a tournament existing consumers will benefit, and new consumers will be brought in. There are so many more wrongs with the analogy that I think the post would have been much better had it just been left out.
So funny that some people take this as racism... I don't think there will ever be a case of discrimination towards any person's "race", so stupid to even bring it up.
On June 17 2011 23:14 tdynasty wrote: All of those justifications are more or less illogical.
E-sports is about multi cultural. I think fans love the best players, love amazing games.
Foreigners vs Koreans really shows amazing players in the foreign scene. It promotes competition.
The fans (e-sports) backbone want to see Koreans play, we don't care if they win the prize pool. We just care about talent!
I don't just care about talent. I care about the uncertainty of the outcome. I feel like at this point the odds on a Korean winning a foreign tournament are so high it impacts my interest. It's like watching a MLB team play the local AAA affiliate day after day, week after week. Sure the AAA team will win a few games but not often enough for me to be a season ticket holder.
I dunno it might be racist, because he is talking about not wanting Koreans to play in the american leagues, and he mentioned things like NASL which has people from europe also playing here but not once did he mention anything about it.
What if a U.S. NBA team got seeded into a foreign country's basketball league playoffs and won the whole thing. I'd imagine that would turn a lot of people off in that country, and if it kept happening, they'd stop watching. The Olympics and all international competitions have their place, and so doesn't national competitions. I want to watch both kinds of competitions in SC2 and Korean invites are killing the latter.
On June 17 2011 23:31 primebeef wrote: I dunno it might be racist, because he is talking about not wanting Koreans to play in the american leagues, and he mentioned things like NASL which has people from europe also playing here but not once did he mention anything about it.
It has nothing to do with race, it's about skill level. If the Koreans were playing in events and consistently coming in 23rd or 50th this thread wouldn't exist.
I think Catz is spot on. Football in Sweden is also a great example, it's a HUGE sport which a ton of people engage in. But seriously, who would give a crap about MFF, AIK etc if amazing teams from champions league etc was in allsvenskan? The whole point is that the league is interesting because it's just swedish clubs playing, it's NOT interesting because the best players and teams in the world are there. If all leagues had the best teams, what would be the point of having any soccer at all in Sweden?
A young soccer loving dude in Sweden can work hard and do his best and can easily support himself professionally from playing in a swedish club in allsvenskan. He doesn't have to be good enough to be in the world cup to work with what he loves. And it's an amazing thing for the sport.
THAT is what Catz want for SC2, and I think it sounds great.
I agree with Catz but we should take it even further. We should do what the US has done with boxing. Make a bunch of worldtitles and make sure the champions never fight eachother. This way we can have a world champion in each region and everyone is happy.
You could say but woulnt the fans know it bogus? Nahh we just hype the feck out of each champion. Make sure to use phrases like pund4pound, all time great, Hall of famer. The fans will eventually buy into all the hype and it will generate alot more money for everyone
So yea I think if we do what Catz suggest and go the way boxing has done. We all in for a good time..
So maybe Catz next title is Pound4Pound Catz
Edit: Hell we could even make weightlimits.
We could have Huk running around in the flyweight Division and Incontrol in the heavyweight division. Omg its perfect all the asian dude´s are small compared to the western people this will surdenly sort all of Catz problems.
I disagree with Catz completely. GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL. If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best. Stop complaining and practice more. That's the harsh reality. By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best. I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't even mean you can beat all the North Americans. In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
On June 17 2011 23:34 Dizz wrote: What if a U.S. NBA team got seeded into a foreign country's basketball league playoffs and won the whole thing. I'd imagine that would turn a lot of people off in that country, and if it kept happening, they'd stop watching. The Olympics and all international competitions have their place, and so doesn't national competitions. I want to watch both kinds of competitions in SC2 and Korean invites are killing the latter.
Just my .02.
If a NBA team played in the Swedish basketball league I can promise you that noone here would whine about it and it would be great for the sport in Sweden. Basketball isn´t big here but it would get alot of attention.
Noone is preventing anyone from making national Starcraft leagues, go ahead and do it if you think it´s a great business opportunity. NASL and other leagues will do what they think is in their best interest.
On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote: I disagree with Catz completely. GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL. If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best. Stop complaining and practice more. That's the harsh reality. By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best. I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans. In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP.
Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online?
Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
I agree with Catz, there should be tournaments for only US players, only EU players, and other foreigners AND Only Koreans, but they shouldn't be everywhere where theres money to be earned. This way foreign gamers can grow reputation, money, motivation to continue playing more in order to compete with the koreans in GLOBAL tournaments. Otherwise koreans will have all money pool available to them, train 24/7, and win all tournaments everywhere till all tournaments get closed outside korea and it becomes a korean only game again.
On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote: I disagree with Catz completely. GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL. If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best. Stop complaining and practice more. That's the harsh reality. By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best. I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans. In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP.
Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online?
Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
Regional tournaments are fine. I don't think anyone has a problem with them. There isn't going to be much money in them though (just as Swedish football is relatively poor). And because overall there isn't a huge amount of money in the game (unlike football), it would be very difficult for players to survive on such a regional basis.
The big money tournaments should be for the best players, which of course is Koreans. If foreigners want to change that fact they should work to get better, not be content with wins in meaningless regional tournaments with scrubs.
On June 17 2011 23:36 Tobberoth wrote: I think Catz is spot on. Football in Sweden is also a great example, it's a HUGE sport which a ton of people engage in. But seriously, who would give a crap about MFF, AIK etc if amazing teams from champions league etc was in allsvenskan? The whole point is that the league is interesting because it's just swedish clubs playing, it's NOT interesting because the best players and teams in the world are there. If all leagues had the best teams, what would be the point of having any soccer at all in Sweden?
A young soccer loving dude in Sweden can work hard and do his best and can easily support himself professionally from playing in a swedish club in allsvenskan. He doesn't have to be good enough to be in the world cup to work with what he loves. And it's an amazing thing for the sport.
THAT is what Catz want for SC2, and I think it sounds great.
Don't compare Team sport with 1 vs 1 Sports. You could compare the SC2-Szene with Tennis und you can ask yourself if any sweden tennis fan ist interested in sweden only Tennis-Tourney? IF NA had an own Sc2 Pro-league then it would be other thing.
On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote: I disagree with Catz completely. GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL. If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best. Stop complaining and practice more. That's the harsh reality. By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best. I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans. In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP.
Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online?
Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
Regional tournaments are fine. I don't think anyone has a problem with them. There isn't going to be much money in them though (just as Swedish football is relatively poor). And because overall there isn't a huge amount of money in the game (unlike football), it would be very difficult for players to survive on such a regional basis.
The big money tournaments should be for the best players, which of course is Koreans. If foreigners want to change that fact they should work to get better, not be content with wins in meaningless regional tournaments with scrubs.
You're right, but the thing is, if there's more regional tournaments, the scene will grow and then regional tournaments won't be all that poor. Sure, being a pro in swedish football doesn't make you a millionare, but you can easily live off it and thus become good enough to make get into the big international teams. It could be the same for SC2. You're not good enough to win the big money in the global tournaments, but you win enough in regional tournaments to keep you going until you are.
On June 17 2011 23:31 primebeef wrote: I dunno it might be racist, because he is talking about not wanting Koreans to play in the american leagues, and he mentioned things like NASL which has people from europe also playing here but not once did he mention anything about it.
It has nothing to do with race, it's about skill level. If the Koreans were playing in events and consistently coming in 23rd or 50th this thread wouldn't exist.
^^ That right there you just mentioned koreans exclusively, if you mentioned certain players that are korean it wouldn't be about race, but you are making it out to be like every korean player is a super star and that if a b teamer came over here they will dominate the whole league repeatedly and keep winning the prize money.
If you think the skill levels were that big of a difference do you think players like naniwa and thorzain will go over to korea to play?
On June 17 2011 23:36 Tobberoth wrote: I think Catz is spot on. Football in Sweden is also a great example, it's a HUGE sport which a ton of people engage in. But seriously, who would give a crap about MFF, AIK etc if amazing teams from champions league etc was in allsvenskan? The whole point is that the league is interesting because it's just swedish clubs playing, it's NOT interesting because the best players and teams in the world are there. If all leagues had the best teams, what would be the point of having any soccer at all in Sweden?
A young soccer loving dude in Sweden can work hard and do his best and can easily support himself professionally from playing in a swedish club in allsvenskan. He doesn't have to be good enough to be in the world cup to work with what he loves. And it's an amazing thing for the sport.
THAT is what Catz want for SC2, and I think it sounds great.
Don't compare Team sport with 1 vs 1 Sports. You could compare the SC2-Szene with Tennis und you can ask yourself if any sweden tennis fan ist interested in sweden only Tennis-Tourney? IF NA had an own Sc2 Pro-league then it would be other thing.
I don't see how it's not comparable. Sure, more people watch the olympics than a national championship in track-and-field, but that doesn't mean you don't have regional tournaments and that those aren't an amazing stepping stone.
Catz is a player, you have to see his problem from a players perspective, not a spectator. I would love to see the top koreans vs the top foreigners in every single tournament, but I also realize it would completely kill the sport eventually.
On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote: I disagree with Catz completely. GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL. If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best. Stop complaining and practice more. That's the harsh reality. By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best. I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans. In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP.
Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online?
Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
^^ OSL and MSL in BW is still going on and it always has the top 10 players in the world playing at every single tournament and it has lasted for a while.
It's not about region, he is mentioning koreans exclusivly he isn't talking about players from europe or the rest of asia, or any of the other continents.
On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote: I disagree with Catz completely. GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL. If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best. Stop complaining and practice more. That's the harsh reality. By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best. I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans. In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP.
Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online?
Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
^^ OSL and MSL in BW is still going on and it always has the top 10 players in the world playing at every single tournament and it has lasted for a while.
It's not about region, he is mentioning koreans exclusivly he isn't talking about players from europe or the rest of asia, or any of the other continents.
OSL and MSL indeed... and how many new players do you see in the BW scene? How prolific is BW esport outside of Korea?
Exactly.
And while he does focus a lot on koreans specifically in that video, he also brings up the european tournament and says it's a good thing, and that's against both NA and Korea. Just like in soccer, there are non-swedish people playing in the clubs, but they have moved to sweden and are working for the club. It's not that simple in SC2 where as long as you have a computer, internet and is awake at the right time, you can join every single tournament you want.
There are good reasons why most sports reserve spots at least partially based on nationality in international competitions for example. For one, if one country pulls too far ahead it wont be very international anymore. And when a country is too far behind other countries odds are the sport wont become or stay very popular.
Then there is the national competition part which Catz mostly talked about in the interview. Is it possible to have more national flavored competitions in sc2 like in most other sports? Well of course it's possible, just look at GSL which kind of works like national competitions or leagues in many other sports. I assume the problem is mostly that all sc2 tournaments want to be huge IE international. There might simply not be room for large more national leagues/tournaments yet unless something like NASL run the group stages in the lan format, kind of like GSL.
On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote: In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?
And try harder for what?
For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool?
Catz is completely spot on. He has the balls to say what most are thinking but are too scared of being flamed.
Lol? Koreans competing internationally is good for everybody - makes the game more entertaining to watch and makes the game more competitive. You realise no one makes their money solely off prize money outside korea? it is too unreliable to do so (ask pretty much any pro). salary + streaming + content funds it
That doesnt mean much. Might as well invite Barcelona and Manchester United to compete in the Korean Football league. It sure would make it entertaining and competitive wouldnt it. But I have a feeling the Korean teams would get a bit upset...
My view is: It's too soon to invite Korean progamers. Let the western leagues build up first. We can talk about global esports when its worth talking about it.
On June 17 2011 23:36 Tobberoth wrote: I think Catz is spot on. Football in Sweden is also a great example, it's a HUGE sport which a ton of people engage in. But seriously, who would give a crap about MFF, AIK etc if amazing teams from champions league etc was in allsvenskan? The whole point is that the league is interesting because it's just swedish clubs playing, it's NOT interesting because the best players and teams in the world are there. If all leagues had the best teams, what would be the point of having any soccer at all in Sweden?
A young soccer loving dude in Sweden can work hard and do his best and can easily support himself professionally from playing in a swedish club in allsvenskan. He doesn't have to be good enough to be in the world cup to work with what he loves. And it's an amazing thing for the sport.
THAT is what Catz want for SC2, and I think it sounds great.
But who wouldnt rather watch Champions League than Allsvenskan? Everyone, including Swedes if Swedish teams qualified.
On June 17 2011 23:58 Tobberoth wrote: I don't see how it's not comparable. Sure, more people watch the olympics than a national championship in track-and-field, but that doesn't mean you don't have regional tournaments and that those aren't an amazing stepping stone.
Catz is a player, you have to see his problem from a players perspective, not a spectator. I would love to see the top koreans vs the top foreigners in every single tournament, but I also realize it would completely kill the sport eventually.
Teams have to be treated in a different way.
There are othrs tourment where Koreans doesn't participate, but the NASL want to become a big tourney, so they need koreans to be accepted as a big Tournement.
And in Football is also much much more money involved, so lower player get decent money. If you think you can get good money as an lower cricket player in sweden than i am pretty sure you cant.
On June 17 2011 23:58 Tobberoth wrote: I don't see how it's not comparable. Sure, more people watch the olympics than a national championship in track-and-field, but that doesn't mean you don't have regional tournaments and that those aren't an amazing stepping stone.
Catz is a player, you have to see his problem from a players perspective, not a spectator. I would love to see the top koreans vs the top foreigners in every single tournament, but I also realize it would completely kill the sport eventually.
Teams have to be treated in a different way.
There are othrs tourment where Koreans doesn't participate, but the NASL want to become a big tourney, so they need koreans to be accepted as a big Tournement.
And in Football is also much much more money involved, so lower player get decent money. If you think you can get good money as an lower cricket player in sweden than i am pretty sure you cant.
Great example, proving my point in a post disagreeing. Cricket is a frickin tiny sport in Sweden, no one plays cricket unless they really really love the sport and plan to move somewhere it's played eventually. If you actually could make money of it, if there were proper swedish tournaments in cricket, I'm sure it would have a buttload more swedish players.
NASL wants to become a big tournament, sure. But maybe it SHOULD be the NORTH AMERICAN star league. Maybe koreans should be more than welcome, as long as they actually commit and go to the US?
It's up to NASL of course, but the point in this discussion is what's good for esports, not for current spectators and the pockets of the people behind NASL.
On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote: In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?
And try harder for what?
For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool?
Catz is completely spot on. He has the balls to say what most are thinking but are too scared of being flamed.
Lol? Koreans competing internationally is good for everybody - makes the game more entertaining to watch and makes the game more competitive. You realise no one makes their money solely off prize money outside korea? it is too unreliable to do so (ask pretty much any pro). salary + streaming + content funds it
That doesnt mean much. Might as well invite Barcelona and Manchester United to compete in the Korean Football league. It sure would make it entertaining and competitive wouldnt it. But I have a feeling the Korean teams would get a bit upset...
My view is: It's too soon to invite Korean progamers. Let the western leagues build up first. We can talk about global esports when its worth talking about it.
Inviting Koreans to NASL/MLG etc is like inviting Barca and United to an invite-only Champion's League. A competition that aims to offer high quality games with the best players around.
Inviting Barca/United to the Korean league would be like inviting Koreans to the EPS. Which doesn't happen.
On June 17 2011 23:31 primebeef wrote: I dunno it might be racist, because he is talking about not wanting Koreans to play in the american leagues, and he mentioned things like NASL which has people from europe also playing here but not once did he mention anything about it.
It has nothing to do with race, it's about skill level. If the Koreans were playing in events and consistently coming in 23rd or 50th this thread wouldn't exist.
^^ That right there you just mentioned koreans exclusively, if you mentioned certain players that are korean it wouldn't be about race, but you are making it out to be like every korean player is a super star and that if a b teamer came over here they will dominate the whole league repeatedly and keep winning the prize money.
If you think the skill levels were that big of a difference do you think players like naniwa and thorzain will go over to korea to play?
You just want it to be about race. Every player that has been invited to the NASL and MLG could be considered at minimum a high level player in Korea if not a super star. If those leagues were inviting b team players, and again they were finishing 23rd or 50th, we wouldn't be discussing this. Also, going over to Korea to play and going to Korea and dominating the events are two different things.
On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote: In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?
And try harder for what?
For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool?
Catz is completely spot on. He has the balls to say what most are thinking but are too scared of being flamed.
Lol? Koreans competing internationally is good for everybody - makes the game more entertaining to watch and makes the game more competitive. You realise no one makes their money solely off prize money outside korea? it is too unreliable to do so (ask pretty much any pro). salary + streaming + content funds it
That doesnt mean much. Might as well invite Barcelona and Manchester United to compete in the Korean Football league. It sure would make it entertaining and competitive wouldnt it. But I have a feeling the Korean teams would get a bit upset...
My view is: It's too soon to invite Korean progamers. Let the western leagues build up first. We can talk about global esports when its worth talking about it.
Inviting Koreans to NASL/MLG etc is like inviting Barca and United to an invite-only Champion's League. A competition that aims to offer high quality games with the best players around.
Inviting Barca/United to the Korean league would be like inviting Koreans to the EPS. Which doesn't happen.
Which is why NASL should change their name, since they aren't a north american league, they are an international invite-championship.
In my view there are two major factors as to why outsiders travelling to participate in tournaments is bad for the growth of pro-gaming.
1. They train outside of the country (obviously) and this hurts the general growth of skill in that country. What I mean by that is that IM/Slayers/etc. do not pariticipate in the EG masters cup for example. Players from these teams do not get to compete with each other on a regular basis. The outsiders just turn up to attempt to collect a prize pool without actually investing or adding anything to that particular scene. This in the long term would be bad for NA/EU players.
2. Sponsorship. It divides the value for alot of sponsors in supporting tournaments/teams. Take for example Stride Gum, can you buy that in Korea? Even in Europe? So sponsoring an event were the key demographic is divided between nations and continents makes it a considerably less lucrative investment. Which means less pro players, which over time will further reduce the average skill of higher level players.
Its not all "the Koreans own the white dudes", these situations will have a lasting impact and could be extremely detrimental to the growth of pro-gaming.
On June 17 2011 23:36 Tobberoth wrote: I think Catz is spot on. Football in Sweden is also a great example, it's a HUGE sport which a ton of people engage in. But seriously, who would give a crap about MFF, AIK etc if amazing teams from champions league etc was in allsvenskan? The whole point is that the league is interesting because it's just swedish clubs playing, it's NOT interesting because the best players and teams in the world are there. If all leagues had the best teams, what would be the point of having any soccer at all in Sweden?
A young soccer loving dude in Sweden can work hard and do his best and can easily support himself professionally from playing in a swedish club in allsvenskan. He doesn't have to be good enough to be in the world cup to work with what he loves. And it's an amazing thing for the sport.
THAT is what Catz want for SC2, and I think it sounds great.
But who wouldnt rather watch Champions League than Allsvenskan? Everyone, including Swedes if Swedish teams qualified.
However both leagues co exist. You can use a different variation of the same argument. What if the Champions League format changed and England had pulled so far away that all teams in the Champions League were English teams, would that be a good thing for soccer outside England?
But what you said kind of sums up a lot of the arguments in this thread. Most want to watch the big international competitions in any sport and in sc2 there is probably not enough interest for national leagues other than the GSL at the moment.
I consider myself a spectator since i watch more pros competing then playing myself . I don't know what other people think but for myself I'm draw to tournaments with Korean American European all participate in. This is the reason why i never any European weekly cups. Watching the Korean winning the MLG is like watching the European winning the TSL make no difference. I personally feel it's the mindset of players like catz that is dragging NA behind.
I would lose interest if ONLY NA players would play because the games that will play are at a lower level then i know it can be. Also i don't belive that NA players don't grow if koreans was to play in MLG and NASL.. NA need to catch up and make prohouses with trainers because blocking out the koreans will just lower quality of the product and make starcraft 2 overall less populare wich will affect negative on the marked and the will make the players worse..
On June 18 2011 00:26 lazyfeet wrote: I consider myself a spectator since i watch more pros competing then playing myself . I don't know what other people think but for myself I'm draw to tournaments with Korean American European all participate in. This is the reason why i never any European weekly cups. Watching the Korean winning the MLG is like watching the European winning the TSL make no difference. I personally feel it's the mindset of players like catz that is dragging NA behind.
I would say it's the other way around. The reason EU has so many good players is because of those "local" EU cups. EU players can meet eachother competitively and be motivated in tournaments where a code S korean won't come and stomp on everyone.
Do they have a huge amount of spectators? No, but again, this is about players and growth of esports, but about what spectators find most exciting, which we already know is big international bouts.
On June 17 2011 23:34 Dizz wrote: What if a U.S. NBA team got seeded into a foreign country's basketball league playoffs and won the whole thing. I'd imagine that would turn a lot of people off in that country, and if it kept happening, they'd stop watching. The Olympics and all international competitions have their place, and so doesn't national competitions. I want to watch both kinds of competitions in SC2 and Korean invites are killing the latter.
Just my .02.
If a NBA team played in the Swedish basketball league I can promise you that noone here would whine about it and it would be great for the sport in Sweden. Basketball isn´t big here but it would get alot of attention.
Noone is preventing anyone from making national Starcraft leagues, go ahead and do it if you think it´s a great business opportunity. NASL and other leagues will do what they think is in their best interest.
Television screening would make more money, stadiums organising events would get more money. Clubs would get less money, because they would be 1 place behind always. A lot of buzz around new players in teams would gone, everyone would just report how NBA team is doing. Players would get less money and be less motivated to train.
I think that CatZ has perfect point, Its like matchmaking.. I don't want to play against master and GM players (i'm platinum), because I will get frustrated loosing. And if there would be money involved.. than no way I would play.
Didn't we already have a N.A tournament that most people didn't care about because the level of competition was too low? I believe it was called IPL season 1.
I think the ratings of IPL season 1 vs 2 will show the real "demand" for regional tournaments.
On June 17 2011 22:27 gosu86 wrote: I think it was a stupid explanation and heres my reason
I pay for tournaments for the best players! Plain and simple. I wouldn't have bought a mlg pass if there were no koreans. I'm not saying people either than koreans suck but some of the best games I have seen are from koreans.
I've lost all respect to catz
want to win money train harder and terrible excuse just terrible
Pretty much...im not interested in watching second rate talent it makes for boring games. I would never pay a dollar to watch an NA only league when I know theres much better players to see in Korea and even Europe. Take the IPL for example. Amazing production values but quite boring game wise...Idra beating up on a bunch of average players with 2-3 big names involved. People would seriously pay money to see that? Now IPL 2 looks much more interesting with Euros involved.
On June 18 2011 00:26 lazyfeet wrote: I consider myself a spectator since i watch more pros competing then playing myself . I don't know what other people think but for myself I'm draw to tournaments with Korean American European all participate in. This is the reason why i never any European weekly cups. Watching the Korean winning the MLG is like watching the European winning the TSL make no difference. I personally feel it's the mindset of players like catz that is dragging NA behind.
I would say it's the other way around. The reason EU has so many good players is because of those "local" EU cups. EU players can meet eachother competitively and be motivated in tournaments where a code S korean won't come and stomp on everyone.
Do they have a huge amount of spectators? No, but again, this is about players and growth of esports, but about what spectators find most exciting, which we already know is big international bouts.
Then NA can set up their own local weekly cups to develop their players. I doubt the Koreans would want to wake up in the middle of the night to play a bunch of games for barely any prize money.
Great example, proving my point in a post disagreeing. Cricket is a frickin tiny sport in Sweden, no one plays cricket unless they really really love the sport and plan to move somewhere it's played eventually. If you actually could make money of it, if there were proper swedish tournaments in cricket, I'm sure it would have a buttload more swedish players.
But people are not interested in cricket. though no viewership an so on. You cant build up a good sport league only with money. Why should anybody gives money to them. only in the hope that in the future they get more money back, what it is very unlikely.
NASL wants to become a big tournament, sure. But maybe it SHOULD be the NORTH AMERICAN star league. Maybe koreans should be more than welcome, as long as they actually commit and go to the US?
It's up to NASL of course, but the point in this discussion is what's good for esports, not for current spectators and the pockets of the people behind NASL.
If you make NASL as a online tournement why you have to go USA.I am pretty sure NASL would be consinded as a weak tournment without Koreans. If you want regional Tournment with 100k winning pool with sub-par players you only need someone to pay for. It seems there is no one willing to pay. If you really wants seprated league than you need an association, where only registred players can participate and so on. You need a much better infrastructure but nowadays the tournement organizer choose the player who play for the prize pool and their interest is to become a well accepted Tourney and not to feed some sub par player. By the way to one hinders NA-People to bulid something up like the Euros with the ESL. But it pretty lame from catz that he thinks the NASL Sponsors should trust if the competition is much lower so that even some like him can win than suddenly the NASL would be much better.
In my opinion there is an easy solution to this problem.
The reason you don't see a TON of foreigners heading to Korea to compete in GSL is because you effectively take yourself away from all of the other tournaments. That’s because GSL you have to PHYSICALLY take your seat to participate. Unlike some other tournaments like NASL (season) or TSL 3 (before championship bracket). If foreigners could compete up until the RO4 from their seats at home they would.
Foreigners are going to continue to snipe MLG because it’s only a 1 weekend tournament and takes very little time compared to GSL. IF NASL or IGN would make their tournaments require taking a seat in a LAN setting rather than playing from their homes not as many Koreans would be participating, they would have to MOVE out WEST in order to compete just like Jinro/Huk had to move to Korea.
Doesn't the prizepool represent only a small fraction of the circulating money ? I mean, MMA, Losira, MC and July are going to MLG, they won 10000$ total prizepool. Didn't they bring a lot more than that to MLG ? How many fans came to MLG and paid the 25$ entry only to see July ?
Loe catZ, but clearly he's scared of the Koreans. If the Koreans were terrible at SC2, would this video still have been made? The Koreans are beasts at this game, so I don't blame him for feeling this way. As a spectator, I don't care if I'm watching americans fight koreans, men fighting women, young players fighting older players. I just want to see the best.
On June 18 2011 00:26 lazyfeet wrote: I consider myself a spectator since i watch more pros competing then playing myself . I don't know what other people think but for myself I'm draw to tournaments with Korean American European all participate in. This is the reason why i never any European weekly cups. Watching the Korean winning the MLG is like watching the European winning the TSL make no difference. I personally feel it's the mindset of players like catz that is dragging NA behind.
I would say it's the other way around. The reason EU has so many good players is because of those "local" EU cups. EU players can meet eachother competitively and be motivated in tournaments where a code S korean won't come and stomp on everyone.
Do they have a huge amount of spectators? No, but again, this is about players and growth of esports, but about what spectators find most exciting, which we already know is big international bouts.
You forgot that the korean already played the dreamhack twice and iem final and did pretty well in europe. Is the korean participating in the NA or Euro weekly cups? There is alot of online tournaments with good prize like IGN pro league EG master series with no Korean playing. Isn't better that instead of asking Korean not to compete in big lan events, Catz should ask all the NA based tournament organizer STOP ASKING the European to play in their small to mid level size online tournaments. Cause the euopean players wins all the NA tournaments.
Seems like a long-winded and contrived attempt to explain things that could be stated in fewer and more obvious words.
I doubt he was thinking about net exports or Lithuania and the European Union when he thought about the idea of Koreans playing in the NASL (seriously? lmao!!). He's primarily a StarCraft 2 player trying to win tournaments and make money, not an economics researcher.
This is just taking the idea of "I don't like Koreans in the NASL" and trying to come up with whatever you can to support it. Weak arguments at best.
I love at this like any other sport that I watch. Here's an analogy. I watch basketball and football because I love watching certain teams play. Maybe they aren't the best but they are entertaining, it doesn't matter who they are paired up against its still enjoyable to me. Some people say they want to see the best play, well then watch GSL if you think the Koreans are the best. I would like to take this discussion to two extremes. Let's say there is nobody but Koreans in the NASL, how does it look are an American eSport then? Also, lets look at chess for example. Everyone wanted to see Kasprov beat Deep Blue, but no one wants to watch Deep Blue crush Kasprov every chess match.
Some remarks on your economical point (GDP=C+I+G+(X-M) applied to SC2).
1. In your formula, the GDP is in currency, usually the dollar. And it's the same when you apply it to Sc2. However i personnally wouldn't agree that we're looking for more or less dollars in the scene, Sc2 -even considered as a sport- is a spectacle before everything else. And having good spectacles is not only linked with tons of money.
2. Even if X-M is negative when the koreans are coming, how does it weight relatively to the rest of the formula ? I mean, even if the koreans were taking some thousands of dollars, let's say something like 200 000$ a year, is it really that much compared to the money in the foreign scene. Relate this to the first point, and we can wonder if it's really a problem for us to have koreans taking a small percentage of our earnings.
3. Having a negative trade balance is not always a problem, it is sometimes necessary. A modern economy cannot produce any goods without importations of raw materials or fuels. That's a problem only if the deficit is huge and/or for a long time.
4. As it have been said, koreans bring hype and interest to the game. If you wanna go on with economical analogy, let's say that they have a positive impact on the demand inside the foreigner scene. So there's a positive output, a growth of your GDP resulting from a greater C (people paying 20 bucks to have a nice stream), a greater I (new companies involved), and possibly a greater G (at least the chinese government gives money to Esport). The question is : is this positive output bigger than the negative X-M ?
I stop there with the theory. The fact is simple, if there were like 5 koreans to each big event (> 3/4/5-000$ prizepool, i don't have an exact number) of the foreign scene, that would be a huge problem. There are not at the moment, and it doesn't seem likely to happen shortly. Don't panic Catz, it'll be fine :D
On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote: I disagree with Catz completely. GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL. If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best. Stop complaining and practice more. That's the harsh reality. By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best. I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans. In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP.
Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online?
Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
^^ OSL and MSL in BW is still going on and it always has the top 10 players in the world playing at every single tournament and it has lasted for a while.
It's not about region, he is mentioning koreans exclusivly he isn't talking about players from europe or the rest of asia, or any of the other continents.
OSL and MSL indeed... and how many new players do you see in the BW scene? How prolific is BW esport outside of Korea?
Exactly.
so are you saying..
tiger woods phil mickleson ernie ells vijay singh Jim Furyk etc.
hurt golf? These are perrennial top 10 players (or were last time i followed golf) everyone expects them to do well in every single event..
Roger Federer Rafal Nadal Djokovich andy roddick etc.
are these guys hurting tennis?
These are two huge individual sports that have global appeal and both go in waves of total domination by the highest echelon until the new generation comes in. People want to watch the best players in the world, always.
Your comparison to starcraft is misguided as its such a new sport but even in the small time scale pro starcraft has been around we've had many different players go in and out of the top 10 and dominate the scene. We've had the oov years, the nada and boxer phases, yellows perrennial silver medals, saviors tear, and now the stranglehold of flash and jaedong. This is no different than Roger Federer winning damn near every major global tournament over the last 5-6 years, and tennis isn't going anywhere.
I personally feel starcraft should be built along the lines of other major individual sports with huge global tournaments allover the world. If you want to make a living sure you can probably scrape by playing local leagues, tournaments etc., but if you want to be a consumate professional you have to be talented and extremely hardworking.
On June 18 2011 00:56 TheSasquatch wrote: I love at this like any other sport that I watch. Here's an analogy. I watch basketball and football because I love watching certain teams play. Maybe they aren't the best but they are entertaining, it doesn't matter who they are paired up against its still enjoyable to me. Some people say they want to see the best play, well then watch GSL if you think the Koreans are the best. I would like to take this discussion to two extremes. Let's say there is nobody but Koreans in the NASL, how does it look are an American eSport then? Also, lets look at chess for example. Everyone wanted to see Kasprov beat Deep Blue, but no one wants to watch Deep Blue crush Kasprov every chess match.
I look at it like wanting to watch the CFL or arena football instead of the NFL. The second rate talent in these leagues cant make it to the big time so they compete in lesser leagues. Ur analogy of watching lesser teams doesnt really make sense cause its basically whats going on right now anyway. Crappy teams still play in the same leagues as the good teams when it comes to football or basketball. A better analogy for ur point would be that u enjoy watching less skilled teams in lesser leagues which are segregated from the big leagues. For example if u like a certain CFL or NBDL team (lol)
On June 17 2011 12:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: basically I see this as catz arguing that all non north americans should be excluded from the NASL to promote the north american scene which is a backwards argument in itself. Without the highest level of competition it's gonna produce much less revenue, and much less prize money.
QFT.
Right now there aren't many NA players that I want to watch play because when you compare them to higher level players they just aren't good at all. I wonder how many people tune into NASL just to see Foreigners play. For instance, I've always watched Drewbie when he streamed, he was fun to watch, he'd talk to his viewers and produce interesting games. During NASL though I don't care to watch his games because he won't be there commentating or having a fun time and if he's not doing that he won't get my attention because I don't think he is one of the top-level terrans in the world. Instead I'd rather watch NaDa because he is one of the best and most consistent sc2 terrans so far.
If the best of the best aren't in a tournament, who cares. There are tons of low level tournaments that get run weekly and they probably always have at most 1k viewers and that's just because it's a bunch of no-name players that people don't really care for. They only get the 1k viewers because they have that 1 random good player that everybody wants to watch.
If NASL didn't have Korean/Foreigner players I feel it wouldn't die off, it just wouldn't be racking in the 10k+ viewers it does everytime it streams.
Can anyone tell me, how its fair that foreigners are playing catch up with the koreans? And how are they expected to make a living if koreans are all taking prize money?
Korea has had nearly 10 years of RTS experience and team houses and infrastructure while the west has barely anything. Why can't we wait to develop our own scene a bit before inviting all the koreans to curbstomp us at every LAN?
On June 18 2011 01:11 Sandro wrote: Can anyone tell me, how its fair that foreigners are playing catch up with the koreans? And how are they expected to make a living if koreans are all taking prize money?
Korea has had nearly 10 years of RTS experience and team houses and infrastructure while the west has barely anything. Why can't we wait to develop our own scene a bit before inviting all the koreans to curbstomp us at every LAN?
you are overestimating the difference, the difference is actually small enough that playing better players develops YOU, i would agree with you if koreans were 2 leagues above, they are not.
Catz's argument basically boils down to; It's too hard for the North Americans to compete against Koreans therefore Koreans should be excluded to make things easier for North Americans, because making it easier will give more motivation to North American players.
The assumption that making things easier is better motivation I think is flawed. Not everyone wants things to be handed to them on a silver platter, some people actually like to climb the real mountain.
At the end of the day however, it's clear that spectators want to see the best players, and spectators are where the money is really at, so thankfully that's what will drive these decisions. Not some self entitled whine by players who have a bad attitude about improving.
On June 18 2011 01:11 Sandro wrote: Can anyone tell me, how its fair that foreigners are playing catch up with the koreans? And how are they expected to make a living if koreans are all taking prize money?
Korea has had nearly 10 years of RTS experience and team houses and infrastructure while the west has barely anything. Why can't we wait to develop our own scene a bit before inviting all the koreans to curbstomp us at every LAN?
Seems like you didn't read the thread. No pros make a dependable living off of tournament winnings. It's a combination of salary, coaching, streaming, and prizes.
What exactly is this infrastructure you're talking about? Team houses are 100% achievable for foreigners and would in fact save money compared to living individually (8 people paying for 8 apartments + utilities vs 8 people paying for 1 larger apartment + shared utilities.) It's less comfortable living in close proximity to that many people but aspiring Korean pros have already made that sacrifice, even the ones that don't get salary and haven't even qualified for code A yet.
On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote: I disagree with Catz completely. GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL. If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best. Stop complaining and practice more. That's the harsh reality. By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best. I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans. In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP.
Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online?
Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
^^ OSL and MSL in BW is still going on and it always has the top 10 players in the world playing at every single tournament and it has lasted for a while.
It's not about region, he is mentioning koreans exclusivly he isn't talking about players from europe or the rest of asia, or any of the other continents.
OSL and MSL indeed... and how many new players do you see in the BW scene? How prolific is BW esport outside of Korea?
Exactly.
And while he does focus a lot on koreans specifically in that video, he also brings up the european tournament and says it's a good thing, and that's against both NA and Korea. Just like in soccer, there are non-swedish people playing in the clubs, but they have moved to sweden and are working for the club. It's not that simple in SC2 where as long as you have a computer, internet and is awake at the right time, you can join every single tournament you want.
I see a bunch of new faces and some that have returned to bw after they finish school. No offense but Sweden isn't gonna attract the best talent into their soccer leagues because the clubs are too small and nobody gives a shit in the mainstream about swedish soccer except swedes. So if we have major tournaments that aren't attracting the best players then the world will just not give a shit about NA SC scene. It will be go to Korea again. All because a few people just don't have motivation and drive to play whoever they get in a round and beat them.
Thats pretty much what I am saying and I think it hits on Catz point. North American needs time to compete on the same level as the Koreans, but if they are going to play in our league then they need to take some kinda of risk just like any other athlete going to play in another country. Idra took a risk going to Korea, to play in the GSL and train to be a better SC player. I don't think they should getting all expense paid trip to MLG etc. to have a chance of taking that money back to Korea. I think Koreans for the most part are better than "Foreigners" at this point, so giving them free invites is just like handing free money and a vacation, how nice. I understand MLG's logic in doing so to raise more excitement for MLG, but like I said in my chess comparison. I'd love to see a foreigner (Kasprov) beat a korean(Deep Blue) at MLG, but I dont want to watch embrassing match after match.
On June 17 2011 23:34 Dizz wrote: What if a U.S. NBA team got seeded into a foreign country's basketball league playoffs and won the whole thing. I'd imagine that would turn a lot of people off in that country, and if it kept happening, they'd stop watching. The Olympics and all international competitions have their place, and so doesn't national competitions. I want to watch both kinds of competitions in SC2 and Korean invites are killing the latter.
Just my .02.
If a NBA team played in the Swedish basketball league I can promise you that noone here would whine about it and it would be great for the sport in Sweden. Basketball isn´t big here but it would get alot of attention.
Noone is preventing anyone from making national Starcraft leagues, go ahead and do it if you think it´s a great business opportunity. NASL and other leagues will do what they think is in their best interest.
Television screening would make more money, stadiums organising events would get more money. Clubs would get less money, because they would be 1 place behind always. A lot of buzz around new players in teams would gone, everyone would just report how NBA team is doing. Players would get less money and be less motivated to train.
I think that CatZ has perfect point, Its like matchmaking.. I don't want to play against master and GM players (i'm platinum), because I will get frustrated loosing. And if there would be money involved.. than no way I would play.
In Sweden the teams get the money from tickets sold so they would earn more and probably get more sponsors because of all the hype around the league. But basketball is very different from Starcraft so it´s a bad example.
National and regional tournaments are good for Starcraft and maybe they are lacking in the US atm, I don´t know, I just know about the international ones because those are what´s interesting to me as a spectator. As many others have pointed out, there are alot of smaller tournaments in Europe with only European players. There are some national tournaments in Sweden aswell but nothing big, the most famous one is probably Rakaka's road to Korea which Sase won and got a trip to Korea. Those smaller tournaments get nowhere near as much attention and the prizemoney is average at best but it´s great that they exist.
I don´t think the solution is banning Koreans from MLG and NASL, they are doing their thing with international events. The money will always be where the interest from fans is, find a way to make an interesting league with only American players. If a national league works in Germany then surely it can be done in a much bigger country like the US where SCII is booming as witnessed at the last MLG event. The only question is who will make it happen, the opportunity surely is there.
however because he is not a 1st place contender in any tournament i would take what he says with a grain of salt. Not that his opinion does not matter, but his impact in the tournaments seems very minimal, imho.
tbh this kinda mirrors football? lol generally the leagues with foreign players(ie usually the best) get the most attention.(PL, La Liga) and more money/sponsors etc? not sure
CatZ arguments are all very childish and do nothing to promote esports.
World-class competitive athletes got that way because they love to compete. They always want to challenge themselves to be the best. To be the best, you've got to beat the best. I find it hard to believe a competitive player would say, "I don't want to play against the best."
Economic arguments being made are actually backwards. People aren't going to pay big bucks to see 3rd rate talent. They are only going to pay big bucks to see the big leagues. Money doesn't create talent. It rewards talent. Talent comes from hard work and dedication and only pure desire to be the best will sustain you.
This is such bullshit. There are already tons of minor tournaments just floating around online and off. There ARE regional tournaments too. I live in the DC area and there's at least 2 I'm aware of (probably more if I bothered to look). The prize pools are all miniscule compared to MLG or Dreamhack or any other major tournaments. And you know what? They SHOULD be. If you want to make this a full time career, then you better get a hell of a lot better. The major tournaments SHOULD be won by the best players in the world, whoever they may be. Else, why should I watch them? To see scrubs play? There's plenty of minor tournament streams for that. People who are interested in the minors already have plenty of options. I want to see the best of the best for my money. I'm already pissed that some major non-Korean tournies are charging way more than the GSL for lesser competition.
Recently, some Koreans have been looking to join foreign teams. GOOD!!! Maybe if more of them come over, we'll start producing more polished players ourselves because of the better practice partners. The solution is not to segregate but to lure the best players over to our leagues and improving the level of play. Look at USA soccer. We were complete crap when it was first started but then we imported a lot of good players from other countries and our home grown guys started getting better in turn.
Adapt. Play better. That's all you need to worry about. The scene will grow with or without you. If it's all Koreans next tourney, good. Maybe some of them will stick around this time. That's how the US gets a good chunk of its talent. We import it.
On June 18 2011 01:26 TheSasquatch wrote: Thats pretty much what I am saying and I think it hits on Catz point. North American needs time to compete on the same level as the Koreans, but if they are going to play in our league then they need to take some kinda of risk just like any other athlete going to play in another country. Idra took a risk going to Korea, to play in the GSL and train to be a better SC player. I don't think they should getting all expense paid trip to MLG etc. to have a chance of taking that money back to Korea. I think Koreans for the most part are better than "Foreigners" at this point, so giving them free invites is just like handing free money and a vacation, how nice. I understand MLG's logic in doing so to raise more excitement for MLG, but like I said in my chess comparison. I'd love to see a foreigner (Kasprov) beat a korean(Deep Blue) at MLG, but I dont want to watch embrassing match after match.
Both you and Catz are forgeting sth. If its the time that NA to compete on the same lvl that by the same time Koreans will be a few lvl higher. PS. MLG participants get all paid trip to korea for a month... How many decided to go? What rank was Thorzain in mlg? what happend to all the so called pros before him in ranking?
Lets say there is a local league where only people living inside North America are allowed to attend. Each season there is a winner from NY, LA, Toronto, Miami etc.. This league would gain local sponsorship. The local sponsorship funding in marketing departments (ie. Dr. Pepper) would say "hey, we want to find something that is cool today that kids can relate to, and I like Kiwikaki because hes a winner and gets very far in many tournaments hes attending, and the local fans in NA love him. Let's sponsor him. Let's also sponsor the league that that he attends a lot".
Now there is another league in NA, where there are top players from around the world can attend. Where Koreans win about 80% of the tournaments. The local marketing department says hey we dont notice any local guys that North Americans can relate to who are winning on a consistent basis. Let's look somewhere else to sponsor. Therefore, less money in the local scene for local guys, and there you have it. No extra incentive for parents of the kids, or for the adults playing this game to take it seriously. They have to find regular jobs, even though they had potential to be good, but no chance of making a living out of gaming.
Also I'd like to expand Catz's soccer point. Lets say the league has 10 teams, and they have Manchester united as a team in this league as well. Manchester wins the trophy every season. Will people come out to watch ManU play? Will this generate money? Yes. Only for the game that they show up out of the entire season schedule. In the long term, will this be viable? NO of course not! All the other 9 teams wont be able to survive because they dont win, or win only once in every 5 years. Unless revenue sharing is implemented.
Bottom line, if you want a foreign scene to thrive.. you need active foreign players and incentive to give them a chance to be successful.
On June 18 2011 02:01 Cartel wrote: Also I'd like to expand Catz's soccer point. Lets say the league has 10 teams, and they have Manchester united as a team in this league as well. Manchester wins the trophy every season. Will people come out to watch ManU play? Will this generate money? Yes. Only for the game that they show up out of the entire season schedule. In the long term, will this be viable? NO of course not! All the other 9 teams wont be able to survive because they dont win, or win only once in every 5 years. Unless revenue sharing is implemented.
Manchester United have won 12 of the last 19 Premier League titles. Arsenal and Chelsea won 6 of the other 7.
The Premier League is the most popular league in the world.
La Liga is totally dominated by Barcelona and Real Madrid. Studies show that people prefer lopsided competitions, with favorites and underdogs, over an even one.
On June 17 2011 23:34 Dizz wrote: What if a U.S. NBA team got seeded into a foreign country's basketball league playoffs and won the whole thing. I'd imagine that would turn a lot of people off in that country, and if it kept happening, they'd stop watching. The Olympics and all international competitions have their place, and so doesn't national competitions. I want to watch both kinds of competitions in SC2 and Korean invites are killing the latter.
Just my .02.
If a NBA team played in the Swedish basketball league I can promise you that noone here would whine about it and it would be great for the sport in Sweden. Basketball isn´t big here but it would get alot of attention.
Noone is preventing anyone from making national Starcraft leagues, go ahead and do it if you think it´s a great business opportunity. NASL and other leagues will do what they think is in their best interest.
Television screening would make more money, stadiums organising events would get more money. Clubs would get less money, because they would be 1 place behind always. A lot of buzz around new players in teams would gone, everyone would just report how NBA team is doing. Players would get less money and be less motivated to train.
I think that CatZ has perfect point, Its like matchmaking.. I don't want to play against master and GM players (i'm platinum), because I will get frustrated loosing. And if there would be money involved.. than no way I would play.
Um...doesn't work that way buddy. So if the competition is too good, players would get less money and be less motivated to train? So what you're saying is that players are more motivated to train if the competition is weak? That just breeds complacency, we have economics to prove that.
Matchmaking is totally different. You are a casual player, of course you would want to play against people your skill. If you suck, why do you deserve to make money in the first place? Makes no cents at all.
On June 18 2011 02:01 Cartel wrote: Great thread and I agree with Catz and OP.
Here's my take on it:
Lets say there is a local league where only people living inside North America are allowed to attend. Each season there is a winner from NY, LA, Toronto, Miami etc.. This league would gain local sponsorship. The local sponsorship funding in marketing departments (ie. Dr. Pepper) would say "hey, we want to find something that is cool today that kids can relate to, and I like Kiwikaki because hes a winner and gets very far in many tournaments hes attending, and the local fans in NA love him. Let's sponsor him. Let's also sponsor the league that that he attends a lot".
Now there is another league in NA, where there are top players from around the world can attend. Where Koreans win about 80% of the tournaments. The local marketing department says hey we dont notice any local guys that North Americans can relate to who are winning on a consistent basis. Let's look somewhere else to sponsor. Therefore, less money in the local scene for local guys, and there you have it. No extra incentive for parents of the kids, or for the adults playing this game to take it seriously. They have to find regular jobs, even though they had potential to be good, but no chance of making a living out of gaming.
Also I'd like to expand Catz's soccer point. Lets say the league has 10 teams, and they have Manchester united as a team in this league as well. Manchester wins the trophy every season. Will people come out to watch ManU play? Will this generate money? Yes. Only for the game that they show up out of the entire season schedule. In the long term, will this be viable? NO of course not! All the other 9 teams wont be able to survive because they dont win, or win only once in every 5 years. Unless revenue sharing is implemented.
Bottom line, if you want a foreign scene to thrive.. you need active foreign players and incentive to give them a chance to be successful.
It's strange that you would make that argument with the amount of foreign players England imports for soccer. I want the Koreans to take it one step further and actually establish teams in the states (or join some). Get into a Korean arms race.
You guys are all confusing the economics of the situation. The personal income of Catz or other foreign players does not equate to the overall scene's success unless the audience weighs seeing someone of their own ethnicity as their overriding concern. If that were true, the NBA wouldn't be successful (90% black). What should happen is that our major leagues and tournaments should attract the very best players to have some sort of permanent or semi-permanent presence, which in turn allows integration of our most dedicated players into their training regime. What organizers should be doing is insisting upon more player exchange and establishment of combined teams/houses. That's how you get better.
I understand and sympathize with some of the arguments from Catz. Koreans can win the foreign tournaments but foreigners can hardly compete in GSL because GSL requires you to be in korea for a long period. There is something to be said about that as it is easier for koreans to embrace the pro-gamer life and thus they are already getting far ahead of the non-koreans. Making tournaments more exclusive to regions won't solve this problem imo. First of all the examples of GSL and the german league are not really possible for some others, america is simply too big and widespread to actually have a league where people attend in person. Gaming and RTS isn't popular enough outside korea to host a long event where people have to attend in person, as a result the events outside korea are just focussed on a few days which is fine really.
The fact that koreans are much better then foreigners now is simply a result of culture imo. Starcraft is much bigger in korea and therefore there are actually gaming houses and much more dedication there, for foreigners to stand a chance in the future they simply need that same dedication probably with gaming houses as well. If anything some players could unite and form these houses for example the swedish players or the germans or whatever but right now I simply don't see it happening.
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that.
also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors.
Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah.
even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income.
This is 100% false. The top earners are all still Korean. The only people to earn almost as much as them is Sjow/WhiteRa by winning 1st in several smaller tournaments.
On June 17 2011 12:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: basically I see this as catz arguing that all non north americans should be excluded from the NASL to promote the north american scene which is a backwards argument in itself. Without the highest level of competition it's gonna produce much less revenue, and much less prize money.
QFT.
Right now there aren't many NA players that I want to watch play because when you compare them to higher level players they just aren't good at all. I wonder how many people tune into NASL just to see Foreigners play. For instance, I've always watched Drewbie when he streamed, he was fun to watch, he'd talk to his viewers and produce interesting games. During NASL though I don't care to watch his games because he won't be there commentating or having a fun time and if he's not doing that he won't get my attention because I don't think he is one of the top-level terrans in the world. Instead I'd rather watch NaDa because he is one of the best and most consistent sc2 terrans so far.
If the best of the best aren't in a tournament, who cares. There are tons of low level tournaments that get run weekly and they probably always have at most 1k viewers and that's just because it's a bunch of no-name players that people don't really care for. They only get the 1k viewers because they have that 1 random good player that everybody wants to watch.
If NASL didn't have Korean/Foreigner players I feel it wouldn't die off, it just wouldn't be racking in the 10k+ viewers it does everytime it streams.
Also 100% false. IPL has NA players only and doubled NASL's viewership each time they were on together.
Catz is afraid of the Koreans. He's afraid of the time commitment, the risk, the potential payoff, and is weighing his concerns vs. a better paying career. Obviously, he just doesn't have enough passion for making it in esports to tough it out. There are struggling athletes in all sports just scrapping by. They go undrafted. They become tennis instructors or little league coaches. They join some random foreign country's league. They could have done something else with their lives. What about the 95% of SC2 wannabe pros in Korea? There's much heavier competition to even make it on a team. I doubt someone like Catz would have gotten picked up from their ladder. A lot of them still depend on their parents or are scrapping by and barely subsisting.
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that.
also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors.
Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah.
even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income.
This is 100% false. The top earners are all still Korean. The only people to earn almost as much as them is Sjow/WhiteRa by winning 1st in several smaller tournaments.
On June 17 2011 12:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: basically I see this as catz arguing that all non north americans should be excluded from the NASL to promote the north american scene which is a backwards argument in itself. Without the highest level of competition it's gonna produce much less revenue, and much less prize money.
QFT.
Right now there aren't many NA players that I want to watch play because when you compare them to higher level players they just aren't good at all. I wonder how many people tune into NASL just to see Foreigners play. For instance, I've always watched Drewbie when he streamed, he was fun to watch, he'd talk to his viewers and produce interesting games. During NASL though I don't care to watch his games because he won't be there commentating or having a fun time and if he's not doing that he won't get my attention because I don't think he is one of the top-level terrans in the world. Instead I'd rather watch NaDa because he is one of the best and most consistent sc2 terrans so far.
If the best of the best aren't in a tournament, who cares. There are tons of low level tournaments that get run weekly and they probably always have at most 1k viewers and that's just because it's a bunch of no-name players that people don't really care for. They only get the 1k viewers because they have that 1 random good player that everybody wants to watch.
If NASL didn't have Korean/Foreigner players I feel it wouldn't die off, it just wouldn't be racking in the 10k+ viewers it does everytime it streams.
Also 100% false. IPL has NA players only and doubled NASL's viewership each time they were on together.
That's because NASL stream sucks and the tournament is poorly conceived and run. People lost interest after the initial excitement.
On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote: I disagree with Catz completely. GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL. If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best. Stop complaining and practice more. That's the harsh reality. By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best. I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans. In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP.
Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online?
Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
^^ OSL and MSL in BW is still going on and it always has the top 10 players in the world playing at every single tournament and it has lasted for a while.
It's not about region, he is mentioning koreans exclusivly he isn't talking about players from europe or the rest of asia, or any of the other continents.
OSL and MSL indeed... and how many new players do you see in the BW scene? How prolific is BW esport outside of Korea?
Exactly.
And while he does focus a lot on koreans specifically in that video, he also brings up the european tournament and says it's a good thing, and that's against both NA and Korea. Just like in soccer, there are non-swedish people playing in the clubs, but they have moved to sweden and are working for the club. It's not that simple in SC2 where as long as you have a computer, internet and is awake at the right time, you can join every single tournament you want.
BW never made it outside of korea because gaming wasn't as big of a culture back then, and when BW first came out it was made popular in korea because they needed a cheap source of entertainment in a bad economy, and PC bangs were cheap, so eventually people started to get addicted and many dropped out of school to play this game, and eventually it became big and it gained a lot of presteige. By that time, you have a bunch of gamers who plays hours and hours everyday competeing against people who played it for fun and entered tournaments, and just got sweeped. Now in SC2, its a fresh game different from BW and you now have foreigners who have taken up the occupation of actually becoming a progamer. The skill levels aren't much different, and progaming is now actually an occupation outside of Korea. The thing is the people want the growth of e-sports, but do you want to watch people who pour their heart and soul into the game and give up practiacally everything compete or would your rather see some randoms that half asses their practice and play then get sweeped and complain.
Here's an example : a person that puts in 10-12 hours a day vs a genius who doesnt put in any time, the genius could win at first, but eventually the person who puts forward the effort will surpass the genius.
On the other hand, a Genius who puts forward the effort vs a non genius who doesn't put in the effort will always stay on top.
On June 18 2011 01:39 out4blood wrote: CatZ arguments are all very childish and do nothing to promote esports.
World-class competitive athletes got that way because they love to compete. They always want to challenge themselves to be the best. To be the best, you've got to beat the best. I find it hard to believe a competitive player would say, "I don't want to play against the best."
Economic arguments being made are actually backwards. People aren't going to pay big bucks to see 3rd rate talent. They are only going to pay big bucks to see the big leagues. Money doesn't create talent. It rewards talent. Talent comes from hard work and dedication and only pure desire to be the best will sustain you.
Totally agree
His reply is nonsense. In e-sports general for example I am a fps fan also so I also watch a lot of the bigger tournaments and if his idea he imposed it would be ridiculous and this goes for all online games. For me anyways I always want to see the best compete with the best.
I was not a big fan of catz nor I disliked them but with this posting I have lost all respect for catz.
1)Those who are very serious about the game and can beat Koreans.
2) Those who are good at the game but not as serious. These can't beat Koreans.
I personally feel Catz falls under 2, and so do alot of foreigners like Lz, Incontrol, Slush, etc. These guys are amazing players, and can occasionally take a Game off of top Koreans. But they aren't really the best. They made a good name by playing lots of small tournaments.
People like Jinro, Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Morrow, Huk. Can put the hurt on Koreans. Catz is just complaining because as long as Koreans participate his performance will never excel because he's simply not at their level. Thats understandable being that he wants to make a living. Sadly people want the best, and you can't have the best without Koreans.
On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote: I disagree with Catz completely. GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL. If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best. Stop complaining and practice more. That's the harsh reality. By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best. I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans. In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP.
Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online?
Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
And you've failed to understand reality completely. 'Bigger' tournaments still requires revenue. Revenue comes from viewership and sponsorship (and sponsorship comes from viewership as well.) Viewership/sponsorship comes from interest in the tournament, which thus comes from the level of competition.
Would it be nice if every tourney had a $10k prize pool, including my local Seattle tournament? Sure. But welcome to reality, where MLG would not have been nearly as big without Koreans participating, and certainly not as big without Koreans OR Europeans participating (people are forgetting that regional doesn't just mean no Koreans at MLG, it means NO EUROPEANS TOO.)
Playing better people will in turn make you better. Sure you can play people around your skill level and have a fun time, but will you improve nearly as fast? Probably not. I love having Korean players (not only because I'm Korean) because they're very entertaining to watch and you can see the hours upon hours of practice and work paying off.
I don't really think the explanation really changes much. Tournaments will invite players who bring them the most interest and revenue. Fans will pay based on whoever has the most interest, or the most interesting event. As much as this was made to be an economic discussion, I feel like this basic economic fact is plainly ignored in the original post and by Catz.
I think any gaps between the Korean and non-Korean scenes can be filled by the escalation that goes with competition. Players constantly get better in virtually every way, competition gets much harder. What needs to happen that didn't happen enough in BW is foreign interest to be similar to Korean interest. A big part of that is actually competing directly with Koreans, in my opinion.
also makes me kinda ;/ towards ret, flying some random girl out to EU that he just met that's hooked up with multiple people that weekend? mergh.. seems desperate.
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that.
also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors.
Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah.
even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income.
This is 100% false. The top earners are all still Korean. The only people to earn almost as much as them is Sjow/WhiteRa by winning 1st in several smaller tournaments.
On June 17 2011 12:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: basically I see this as catz arguing that all non north americans should be excluded from the NASL to promote the north american scene which is a backwards argument in itself. Without the highest level of competition it's gonna produce much less revenue, and much less prize money.
QFT.
Right now there aren't many NA players that I want to watch play because when you compare them to higher level players they just aren't good at all. I wonder how many people tune into NASL just to see Foreigners play. For instance, I've always watched Drewbie when he streamed, he was fun to watch, he'd talk to his viewers and produce interesting games. During NASL though I don't care to watch his games because he won't be there commentating or having a fun time and if he's not doing that he won't get my attention because I don't think he is one of the top-level terrans in the world. Instead I'd rather watch NaDa because he is one of the best and most consistent sc2 terrans so far.
If the best of the best aren't in a tournament, who cares. There are tons of low level tournaments that get run weekly and they probably always have at most 1k viewers and that's just because it's a bunch of no-name players that people don't really care for. They only get the 1k viewers because they have that 1 random good player that everybody wants to watch.
If NASL didn't have Korean/Foreigner players I feel it wouldn't die off, it just wouldn't be racking in the 10k+ viewers it does everytime it streams.
Also 100% false. IPL has NA players only and doubled NASL's viewership each time they were on together.
hard to say though, NASL possibly has less viewership because: 1. It is pool stage right now, and there's so many games that it gets boring after a while. 2. IPL I feel at least, has way better production value and better commentators (although I'm really not a big fan of TotalBiscuit.).
Also. To be honest, even if Koreans and Europeans weren't in the tournament, I still don't think CatZ would place in Top 5.
I agree with Catz, although I think we need both things. For example I think the NASL is fine with many Koreans but I also think they should have additional leagues that are only for the USA.
I think that the NASL is clearly not a "North American" only league despite the name. I think the NASL should still have invites from Europe and Korea in order to remain an ELITE league!
On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote: I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
You don't have to feel like you can win the tournament to work hard. Not every 32 teams in the World cup thinks they can win it, but they all have a goal, be it round of 16, quarterfinal or others. Set a goal, and train and work towards it!
Exactly. It's about pride as a player and the inner competitor in each individual that should drive them to work hard. Those that succeed are those that get motivation from within and the desire to be at the top. if someone has to incentivise you the whole way, then this isn't the right career to pursue.
On June 18 2011 04:57 Okasai wrote: Quote: Also. To be honest, even if Koreans and Europeans weren't in the tournament, I still don't think CatZ would place in Top 5. EndQuote
Perhaps you'd like to include past MLGs too where CatZ didn't even make it out of the open bracket. And I'm not just talking about this time where he was against July and there was that whole no-show disqual. Other times too he hasn't made it out. l o l.
You mention the financial struggles of trying to be an improving progamer here in the US, but you made the voluntary choice to start ROOT from scratch. I don't know the full details, (so I'll try to avoid saying something incorrect) but as we saw from it's recent acquisition by Complexity -- it's extremely hard to support your own progaming team financially and be a top competitive player at the same time.
I think this is true in Korea as well. By undertaking the challenge of being the founder of a new team, your willing to accept the fact that a good chunk of your time will be tied up in things that have nothing to do with playing sc2.
Look at oGstheWind. By being the coach, he understands that he has let his days as a comptitive player have left him. Look at oGsSpunky, another top player in the beta. He strictly handles the business side of oGs now. At a certain point, you need to realize that you wanted to start something amazing in ROOT, and I for one wish you succeeded, but you can't honestly expect to be as good of a gamer as you could of been. This is just the way it is. It has nothing to do with Koreans coming over and supposedly 'hampering' the ESPORTS growth in the US. Didn't you hear recently that TSL is one of the very few teams with salaried players? The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
There need to be events that mid-level pro's can win and make a decent money off of. If all events with good money have all the top korean pro's in them, then many of the mid-level pro's will never get to make a living from gaming. End of story.
I say keep NASL as it is, but create other events that suit the needs of the players that below the very top. With prize money.
You mention the financial struggles of trying to be an improving progamer here in the US, but you made the voluntary choice to start ROOT from scratch. I don't know the full details, (so I'll try to avoid saying something incorrect) but as we saw from it's recent acquisition by Complexity -- it's extremely hard to support your own progaming team financially and be a top competitive player at the same time.
I think this is true in Korea as well. By undertaking the challenge of being the founder of a new team, your willing to accept the fact that a good chunk of your time will be tied up in things that have nothing to do with playing sc2.
Look at oGstheWind. By being the coach, he understands that he has let his days as a comptitive player have left him. Look at oGsSpunky, another top player in the beta. He strictly handles the business side of oGs now. At a certain point, you need to realize that you wanted to start something amazing in ROOT, and I for one wish you succeeded, but you can't honestly expect to be as good of a gamer as you could of been. This is just the way it is. It has nothing to do with Koreans coming over and supposedly 'hampering' the ESPORTS growth in the US. Didn't you hear recently that TSL is one of the very few teams with salaried players? The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
yeah as i've said repeatedly, this is not about myself, im not speaking on my behalf, as I mentioned plenty of times before in this thread, even if everything I hoped for happened, my chances to win anything in my current shape are slim. Im talking about Esports in general and its growth in this hemisphere, not about me making more $
There need to be events that mid-level pro's can win and make a decent money off of. If all events with good money have all the top korean pro's in them, then many of the mid-level pro's will never get to make a living from gaming. End of story.
I say keep NASL as it is, but create other events that suit the needs of the players that below the very top. With prize money.
That's a crock of crap
If these mid level pro's really wanted to win money they should practice harder. Simple
On topic what you said, I say there's no such thing as mid level pro. Pro in e-sports means playing it for a living because you love it and you have a passion for it and not only that but for income also.
If you want to join the pro scene and if your not going to dedicate 100 percent in it than there is no point. There's no justifying mid level-pros. LOL what a crock of crap haha
There need to be events that mid-level pro's can win and make a decent money off of. If all events with good money have all the top korean pro's in them, then many of the mid-level pro's will never get to make a living from gaming. End of story.
I say keep NASL as it is, but create other events that suit the needs of the players that below the very top. With prize money.
That's a crock of crap
If these mid level pro's really wanted to win money they should practice harder. Simple
On topic what you said, I say there's no such thing as mid level pro. Pro in e-sports means playing it for a living because you love it and you have a passion for it and not only that but for income also.
If you want to join the pro scene and if your not going to dedicate 100 percent in it than there is no point. There's no justifying mid level-pros. LOL what a crock of crap haha
and next thing you know some one will be asking for tournaments for "low level pros" with huge prize money. a tournament where mid level pros aren't allowed, so we can win alot of money to become mid level.
You mention the financial struggles of trying to be an improving progamer here in the US, but you made the voluntary choice to start ROOT from scratch. I don't know the full details, (so I'll try to avoid saying something incorrect) but as we saw from it's recent acquisition by Complexity -- it's extremely hard to support your own progaming team financially and be a top competitive player at the same time.
I think this is true in Korea as well. By undertaking the challenge of being the founder of a new team, your willing to accept the fact that a good chunk of your time will be tied up in things that have nothing to do with playing sc2.
Look at oGstheWind. By being the coach, he understands that he has let his days as a comptitive player have left him. Look at oGsSpunky, another top player in the beta. He strictly handles the business side of oGs now. At a certain point, you need to realize that you wanted to start something amazing in ROOT, and I for one wish you succeeded, but you can't honestly expect to be as good of a gamer as you could of been. This is just the way it is. It has nothing to do with Koreans coming over and supposedly 'hampering' the ESPORTS growth in the US. Didn't you hear recently that TSL is one of the very few teams with salaried players? The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
yeah as i've said repeatedly, this is not about myself, im not speaking on my behalf, as I mentioned plenty of times before in this thread, even if everything I hoped for happened, my chances to win anything in my current shape are slim. Im talking about Esports in general and its growth in this hemisphere, not about me making more $
:S - Well maybe I misunderstood then... either way... i hope with your recent move to Complexity you'll have more time to be that "home grown" talent that you think will spur NA E-sports growth
On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote: All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that.
also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors.
Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah.
even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income.
This is 100% false. The top earners are all still Korean. The only people to earn almost as much as them is Sjow/WhiteRa by winning 1st in several smaller tournaments.
On June 17 2011 12:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: basically I see this as catz arguing that all non north americans should be excluded from the NASL to promote the north american scene which is a backwards argument in itself. Without the highest level of competition it's gonna produce much less revenue, and much less prize money.
QFT.
Right now there aren't many NA players that I want to watch play because when you compare them to higher level players they just aren't good at all. I wonder how many people tune into NASL just to see Foreigners play. For instance, I've always watched Drewbie when he streamed, he was fun to watch, he'd talk to his viewers and produce interesting games. During NASL though I don't care to watch his games because he won't be there commentating or having a fun time and if he's not doing that he won't get my attention because I don't think he is one of the top-level terrans in the world. Instead I'd rather watch NaDa because he is one of the best and most consistent sc2 terrans so far.
If the best of the best aren't in a tournament, who cares. There are tons of low level tournaments that get run weekly and they probably always have at most 1k viewers and that's just because it's a bunch of no-name players that people don't really care for. They only get the 1k viewers because they have that 1 random good player that everybody wants to watch.
If NASL didn't have Korean/Foreigner players I feel it wouldn't die off, it just wouldn't be racking in the 10k+ viewers it does everytime it streams.
Also 100% false. IPL has NA players only and doubled NASL's viewership each time they were on together.
You can only compare the "foreigner only x mixed players" factor when everything else is equal.
IGN Pro League has insanely higher production value, more stable stream, a huge website behind to atract non-typical sc2 viewers and runs elimination matches, while NASL regular-season sometimes generate pointless games.
As a silly counterpoint, I'd bet that the TSL, with mixed players, had a much higher viewership than IGN Pro League.
As like most people on this thread, I agree that it would be beneficial for local scenes to have regional tournaments to motivate amateur players, but professional events should be the arena for the best of the best, regardless of race, gender, age or nationality.
The only way for mid-level SC2 pros to make money is if SC2 takes off in a really huge way. Only then will the money trickle down to them. As it is, SC2 is mainly tournament winners and big personalities making the most money.
If a player is not as talented in SC2, perhaps they can channel their social talents to market themselves and the game to make the scene bigger. Then there will be more interest, more sponsors, more money, etc and that's how they make a living.
They don't do it by trying to bar competitors from participating.
On June 18 2011 02:01 Cartel wrote: Also I'd like to expand Catz's soccer point. Lets say the league has 10 teams, and they have Manchester united as a team in this league as well. Manchester wins the trophy every season. Will people come out to watch ManU play? Will this generate money? Yes. Only for the game that they show up out of the entire season schedule. In the long term, will this be viable? NO of course not! All the other 9 teams wont be able to survive because they dont win, or win only once in every 5 years. Unless revenue sharing is implemented.
Manchester United have won 12 of the last 19 Premier League titles. Arsenal and Chelsea won 6 of the other 7.
You forgot Liverpool.
But to get back to the matter at hand: Imagine Sweden or Denmark did NOT have a developed football culture, and wanted to start one up - it might raise awareness and attract vievers to have United, Chelsea and Arsenal come and play in the league - at first. All the people that followed the english competition would love to see them participate in a more local setting.
But why would local sponsors find that interesting in the long run? Sponsors that the local clubs would need to finance their talent and club development if they were to hope for some day matching the guests from the established and way better league. I could see it not being so. If the local talent is constantly placing as 4ths, 5ths or worse, wheres the attraction of the sponsors?
Now, the disparity on the SC2 scene is not ALL that bad. And the viever base might have VERY little interest in anything but the top level play. It is obviously its own scenario. And as pointed out in the example above, inviting the best players in the world to compete locally might indeed boost the local scene and generate interest.
But the impact of it on the long term growth of the scene locally is something that should at least be considered. You can disagree with Catz. But he should not be ridiculed for bringing it up. It is a very valid concern and discussion. Worthy of a more deliberated contribution than "You are just afraid. Get better".
I suspect that the low interest in lower tier tournaments to some extent has to do with them being so fragmented/happenstance. Most people have no relation to them, because the reason for them means nothing to the potential spectator. "If they are not deciding whos is the best of the best, why should I care?". Those tournaments mainly are of interest to the players, hardly anyone else.
There needs to be something more than money on the line. Even at the lower level. Especially at the lower level I would say.
Imagine a EU/NA equivalent of KESPA organising local tournaments from the ground up. City > County > State > National tournaments/Pro circuit. All of sudden you would have players at a much more dispersed level range being relatable and being known to viewers and potential sponsors in the corresponding sphere. You would have staggered goals, instead of being the best or noone.
Even in solo sports like tennis and golf a lot of the players have risen out of similar amateur tournament structures - if I am not mistaken.
Let me finish by stating that there are obvious holes and problems with every comparison made in the above. I acknowledge that.
But its worth having a discussion about it that is a little more nuanced than "Get better.". Because I fail to see how that will push our favourite hobby towards getting the kind of coverage and exposure we would like for it to get.
You mention the financial struggles of trying to be an improving progamer here in the US, but you made the voluntary choice to start ROOT from scratch. I don't know the full details, (so I'll try to avoid saying something incorrect) but as we saw from it's recent acquisition by Complexity -- it's extremely hard to support your own progaming team financially and be a top competitive player at the same time.
I think this is true in Korea as well. By undertaking the challenge of being the founder of a new team, your willing to accept the fact that a good chunk of your time will be tied up in things that have nothing to do with playing sc2.
Look at oGstheWind. By being the coach, he understands that he has let his days as a comptitive player have left him. Look at oGsSpunky, another top player in the beta. He strictly handles the business side of oGs now. At a certain point, you need to realize that you wanted to start something amazing in ROOT, and I for one wish you succeeded, but you can't honestly expect to be as good of a gamer as you could of been. This is just the way it is. It has nothing to do with Koreans coming over and supposedly 'hampering' the ESPORTS growth in the US. Didn't you hear recently that TSL is one of the very few teams with salaried players? The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
yeah as i've said repeatedly, this is not about myself, im not speaking on my behalf, as I mentioned plenty of times before in this thread, even if everything I hoped for happened, my chances to win anything in my current shape are slim. Im talking about Esports in general and its growth in this hemisphere, not about me making more $
So it's well and easy to say "I want esports to be bigger" yada yada, but you've offered zero solutions. Saying 'there should be regional tournaments with big prizes' is not a solution, as people have already pointed out that regional tournaments simply aren't as big/popular and thus do not attract the viewership needed for big prizes.
You don't seem to understand that things have a cause and effect. MLG Columbus was big. If you magically said all Koreans were banned, it wouldn't have been as big. So your solution of banning Koreans from events doesn't solve anything. You basically bring up a problem and propose no good solutions, and that is the issue at hand.
yeah as i've said repeatedly, this is not about myself, im not speaking on my behalf, as I mentioned plenty of times before in this thread, even if everything I hoped for happened, my chances to win anything in my current shape are slim. Im talking about Esports in general and its growth in this hemisphere, not about me making more $
I'm sorry, but in the weeks prior to MLG, Idra said he was practicing 3 hours a week. And (although Scoots is free to correct me) his management must have been fine with that. I don't think they are alone in that regard. I don't see how you can even begin to build an argument around "the practice they get is better than the practice we get" when our top pros are not even practicing nearly as much as theirs. If you want to prove it is an infrastructure issue and not an effort one you need to first meet that effort.
You don't see the korean pros casting,coaching, or messing around on streams. If foreign pros want to subsidize their income with those things they need to be willing to accept the consequences and lose the prize money to players who invest their time into practicing instead of PR (don't even need to use koreans here, look at Thorzain and Naniwa). You seem to think foreign pros deserve both, prize money and spending time on PR, they don't.
also makes me kinda ;/ towards ret, flying some random girl out to EU that he just met that's hooked up with multiple people that weekend? mergh.. seems desperate.
Why should we feel bad about the guy? Instead, we should be happy for the guy who got cheated on multiple times because it's better to find out now that his ex was a cheating whore and avoid further and future emotional scars.
I like CatZ and I understand his position on the matter but I think the OP does a bad job defending him or “trying to explain his argument”. Quite in fact I think he or she is doing the opposite.
Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
What does that mean? To exemplify your statement this is like “I can be Latino but I am racist against black people”. Hate to break it to you but this is still racism. I could have an argument like this: More Peruvian people in esports =more foreign people in general More foreign people in general= More competition More Competition=More chances of nationals losing to foreigners.
Therefore
More Peruvian people = More chances of nationals losing to foriegners.
This faulty, generalized "logic" also applies both ways, ironically.
A simple economical formula that most students know:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
What CatZ is talking about is the "(X-M)" part which stands for net exports. It is the diffrence of export versus import. When import is higher than export (money leaks) GDP is smaller. If consumers buy more foreign products than local ones, net export is negative. In other words, buying goods from a foreign country fuels money to that country's economy, while your country gets into shit financial situation if this phenomena is en masse.
Here's a real world example, one that was given to me by a macroeconomics proffesor in my university, an example that is very relevant to me.
Lithuania joined the European Union. The small(er) business here were bought out by foreign competitors. The products that people buy are often products of foreign companies. This makes import high and export low. If this negative isn‘t compesated by other factos in the formula the national debt is piling up as net export remains negative. That‘s where This leads to huge economical tendencies that I won't go into about.
Now imagine that different countries are different Starcraft e-sports scenes with a completely free trading market. The growing "western" and the "already-developed" korean scene. The western scene is developing and is starting to create some revenue, however the korean scene, which is already big, competes for the same money. Money is leaked from the western scene into the korean scene via prize pool (as korean players are better financed, received better conditions and training for years, while western players could only do this as a hobby). It is natural for the korean scene to dwarf the underdeveloped western scene. A korean winning a foreign tournament means more money for korean e-sports. If a korean stays and competes in North America, he is part of THAT scene. This is why CatZ does not oppose koreans STAYING to compete in NA tournaments. Stricly speaking the „already developed“ scene would suck funds out of the „developing“ one. This is why Koreans winning foreign tournaments can be POTENTIALLY bad for foreign eSports.
Granted, this is only pize pool money we‘re talking about. It is also unfair to say that all of the money will remain in one particular scene, afterall there is a fair trade going on between the two. However, you have to admit the point remains valid.
Being an economist myself, I can tell you the macro example you provide to defend CatZ argument is poor if not invalid. Countries can choose, economically speaking, between having a deficit or a surplus for their country. Both of these have intertemporal effects on the current and future status of a country. That’s the whole reason of X>M or X<M. Keep in mind this is one of the most simplistic macro models.E-Sports is not the same because we aren’t buying/selling players, we are increasing competition and I can tell you that many economists under the ceteris paribus assumption will agree that more competition is better.
Sure some money goes to the player and the team. However, more competition, more matches and more players. This increases viewership to both domestic and international viewers. More viewership translates into more popularity which translates into more money gain from sponsors and more money gained from ads, should the event involve ads. This is better for E-Sports as a whole, ceteris paribus.
CatZ logic is pretty much the same grudge a few Americans hold against Latinos for “job stealing”. If somebody is willing to work harder for less money than you, he or she should get the job. Going back e-sports, Korea is a very collectivist society that translates into more dedication to status quo patterns. Ergo, this dedication creates proficiency over time that allows players to do better and thus excel at this game. So now that you put it this way, an argument could be “Let’s not have Brazilian team in the World Cup because some of the money will go back to Brazil instead of staying in the country that is hosting the World cup” Many other examples exist in the media.
Also its professor not proffesor . I think your macroeconomics professor would be ashamed of this post.
WTF does this have anything to do with the conversation at hand? I don't agree with Catz but slandering him with this stupid shit is deplorable.
For that I do feel sorry for the guy but it was best he found out. Slandering him on that, well you can't really he didn't do anything wrong there. Not the bfs fault just the girl likes to go around.
To the point if your going to slander him do it for the right reasons.
I seriously think he should have re thought or reworded what he said because to me and most of the people in this thread agrees that his statement is quite the bs and I can def agree.
At least if your going to give an excuse give a excuse that's reasonable with proof or evidence. I found the info shit to be all over the friggen place and not making any sense. His argument is ridiculous, so ridiculous I find and stupid and making him look like a fool.
As everyone has stated in this thread, we even got people saying their economist and stating his quote stupid as F$%^ lol. And I stated this not because I love korean players I have tons of foreigner favorites like idra, whitera, jinro, huk and the list goes on.
Every reply Catz has made, I don't even know if this guy has a brain lol. Arguing and trying to prove something without research and analysis is brainless.
Catz maybe it's time to train 5-8 hours a day or more and improve your game instead of putting out a stupid ass statement.
For all who disagree read the whole thread before you reply
That guy really needs to learn to man up and deal with his own problems rather than imploring the internet to publicly degrade those who wrong him. Yes he could have been totally in the right in that situation(Keep in mind we're only dealing with one side of the story.), but he threw away any validity from that argument by farming out his anger to the Reddit community, which happens to have a pretty large population of misogynistic, "nice guys" who are happy to eat this sort of story up to fuel their hate for, "whores".
WTF does this have anything to do with the conversation at hand? I don't agree with Catz but slandering him with this stupid shit is deplorable.
For that I do feel sorry for the guy but it was best he found out. Slandering him on that, well you can't really he didn't do anything wrong there. Not the bfs fault just the girl likes to go around.
To the point if your going to slander him do it for the right reasons.
I seriously think he should have re thought or reworded what he said because to me and most of the people in this thread agrees that his statement is quite the bs and I can def agree.
At least if your going to give an excuse give a excuse that's reasonable with proof or evidence. I found the info shit to be all over the friggen place and not making any sense. His argument is ridiculous, so ridiculous I find and stupid and making him look like a fool.
As everyone has stated in this thread, we even got people saying their economist and stating his quote stupid as F$%^ lol. And I stated this not because I love korean players I have tons of foreigner favorites like idra, whitera, jinro, huk and the list goes on.
Every reply Catz has made, I don't even know if this guy has a brain lol. Arguing and trying to prove something without research and analysis is brainless.
Catz maybe it's time to train 5-8 hours a day or more and improve your game instead of putting out a stupid ass statement.
For all who disagree read the whole thread before you reply
Thank you and have a nice day ^^
You're actually degrading the quality of the argument you support with this post. If English isn't your first language I apologize for coming down on you too hard, but really consider reading your post before you make it. Portions of this are either somewhat incomprehensible or unnecessarily vitriolic.
When you are done enjoying yours, could you leave a note here explaining which of the many "he"'s you are referring to in your post is which? The mess of references to the aforementioned bf, OP and Catz makes it seem to me that the suggested thread reading should start with yourself perhaps?
Don't worry. We are going to make an exception on this one, so explaining yourself will not subtract from your Internet Forum Tough Guy points.
WTF does this have anything to do with the conversation at hand? I don't agree with Catz but slandering him with this stupid shit is deplorable.
For that I do feel sorry for the guy but it was best he found out. Slandering him on that, well you can't really he didn't do anything wrong there. Not the bfs fault just the girl likes to go around.
To the point if your going to slander him do it for the right reasons.
I seriously think he should have re thought or reworded what he said because to me and most of the people in this thread agrees that his statement is quite the bs and I can def agree.
At least if your going to give an excuse give a excuse that's reasonable with proof or evidence. I found the info shit to be all over the friggen place and not making any sense. His argument is ridiculous, so ridiculous I find and stupid and making him look like a fool.
As everyone has stated in this thread, we even got people saying their economist and stating his quote stupid as F$%^ lol. And I stated this not because I love korean players I have tons of foreigner favorites like idra, whitera, jinro, huk and the list goes on.
Every reply Catz has made, I don't even know if this guy has a brain lol. Arguing and trying to prove something without research and analysis is brainless.
Catz maybe it's time to train 5-8 hours a day or more and improve your game instead of putting out a stupid ass statement.
For all who disagree read the whole thread before you reply
Thank you and have a nice day ^^
You're actually degrading the quality of the argument you support with this post. If English isn't your first language I apologize for coming down on you too hard, but really consider reading your post before you make it. Portions of this are either somewhat incomprehensible or unnecessarily vitriolic.
yes my english is not that great but i am still learning^^ grammer police instead of being a grammar police why dont you put your 2cents in than instead of just saying its vitriolic
lol vitriolic trying to be smart online ok i get it oh look i forgot to type a period and forgot my capitals and comma sss
my reply to you denmark read the whole thread and you'll get your answer ^^ tough guy? lol okays if you say so
WTF does this have anything to do with the conversation at hand? I don't agree with Catz but slandering him with this stupid shit is deplorable.
For that I do feel sorry for the guy but it was best he found out. Slandering him on that, well you can't really he didn't do anything wrong there. Not the bfs fault just the girl likes to go around.
To the point if your going to slander him do it for the right reasons.
I seriously think he should have re thought or reworded what he said because to me and most of the people in this thread agrees that his statement is quite the bs and I can def agree.
At least if your going to give an excuse give a excuse that's reasonable with proof or evidence. I found the info shit to be all over the friggen place and not making any sense. His argument is ridiculous, so ridiculous I find and stupid and making him look like a fool.
As everyone has stated in this thread, we even got people saying their economist and stating his quote stupid as F$%^ lol. And I stated this not because I love korean players I have tons of foreigner favorites like idra, whitera, jinro, huk and the list goes on.
Every reply Catz has made, I don't even know if this guy has a brain lol. Arguing and trying to prove something without research and analysis is brainless.
Catz maybe it's time to train 5-8 hours a day or more and improve your game instead of putting out a stupid ass statement.
For all who disagree read the whole thread before you reply
Thank you and have a nice day ^^
You're actually degrading the quality of the argument you support with this post. If English isn't your first language I apologize for coming down on you too hard, but really consider reading your post before you make it. Portions of this are either somewhat incomprehensible or unnecessarily vitriolic.
yes my english is not that great but i am still learning^^ grammer police
Not so much grammar as tone. If you can get your point across poor grammar isn't the greatest of issues. Just when you say something like:
Every reply Catz has made, I don't even know if this guy has a brain lol.
It's taking what should be an discussion about what is best for E-sports and throwing in personal insults. Anyways, I for the most part agree with the stance you have as well. It's fine to disagree with Catz and/or others, I'd just try to avoid vilifying them. That's just my advice. Feel free to consider me an overbearing and patronizing ass, I can definitely see how I'd be coming across as such at the moment.
Hmm seems you've changed the tone of your reply in the time I was responding to you, well again such is your right. Though I doubt it will win you many supporters.
What would happen to British football (not soccer) if they allowed NFL teams to compete in their leagues? It would utterly destroy British football as they would have little chance to win. Yes the NFL would give better games, but if you want to see who's the best you have a world tournament.
If the American team wants to move to Britain, and commit to them that's fair.
So my question to you is:
Should British pro football teams just "get better" or should they be allowed their own league?
The fact is in NO sport (except where two close countries have an agreement) do teams from other countries compete in local leagues, they have WORLD tourneys to compete with each other, otherwise a few teams would travel the world cleaning up every tournament, and it would destroy the sport as a whole.
This example is why North America should have its own league for people who actually reside here.
WTF does this have anything to do with the conversation at hand? I don't agree with Catz but slandering him with this stupid shit is deplorable.
For that I do feel sorry for the guy but it was best he found out. Slandering him on that, well you can't really he didn't do anything wrong there. Not the bfs fault just the girl likes to go around.
To the point if your going to slander him do it for the right reasons.
I seriously think he should have re thought or reworded what he said because to me and most of the people in this thread agrees that his statement is quite the bs and I can def agree.
At least if your going to give an excuse give a excuse that's reasonable with proof or evidence. I found the info shit to be all over the friggen place and not making any sense. His argument is ridiculous, so ridiculous I find and stupid and making him look like a fool.
As everyone has stated in this thread, we even got people saying their economist and stating his quote stupid as F$%^ lol. And I stated this not because I love korean players I have tons of foreigner favorites like idra, whitera, jinro, huk and the list goes on.
Every reply Catz has made, I don't even know if this guy has a brain lol. Arguing and trying to prove something without research and analysis is brainless.
Catz maybe it's time to train 5-8 hours a day or more and improve your game instead of putting out a stupid ass statement.
For all who disagree read the whole thread before you reply
Thank you and have a nice day ^^
You're actually degrading the quality of the argument you support with this post. If English isn't your first language I apologize for coming down on you too hard, but really consider reading your post before you make it. Portions of this are either somewhat incomprehensible or unnecessarily vitriolic.
yes my english is not that great but i am still learning^^ grammer police
Not so much grammar as tone. If you can get your point across poor grammar isn't the greatest of issues. Just when you say something like:
Every reply Catz has made, I don't even know if this guy has a brain lol.
It's taking what should be an discussion about what is best for E-sports and throwing in personal insults. Anyways, I for the most part agree with the stance you have as well. It's fine to disagree with Catz and/or others, I'd just try to avoid vilifying them. Anyways that's just my advice. Feel free to consider me an overbearing and patronizing ass, I can definitely see how I'd be coming across as such at the moment.
Hmm seems you've changed the tone of your reply in the time I was responding to you, well again such is your right. Though I doubt it will win you many supporters.
If you read my post I actually defended Catz with the reddit bs. People flaming and slandering him for that it's 100 percent not his fault. Anyways there are other sides to the story and I did defend him because I don't think he should be flamed for that. What I stated was if your going to slander do it for a reason.
Yeah I agree with you, I guess I wasn't happy with his responses in this thread. I'm not trying to win any supporters, I'm just trying to get my point across. Yeah that statement was a lil harsh but I typed it in after reading his replies though.
On June 18 2011 11:54 AKA. wrote: What would happen to British football (not soccer) if they allowed NFL teams to compete in their leagues? It would utterly destroy British football as they would have little chance to win. Yes the NFL would give better games, but if you want to see who's the best you have a world tournament.
If the American team wants to move to Britain, and commit to them that's fair.
So my question to you is:
Should British pro football teams just "get better" or should they be allowed their own league?
The fact is in NO sport (except where two close countries have an agreement) do teams from other countries compete in local leagues, they have WORLD tourneys to compete with each other, otherwise a few teams would travel the world cleaning up every tournament, and it would destroy the sport as a whole.
This example is why North America should have its own league for people who actually reside here.
So what your saying is that european players should also be banned cause they are better then NA players as now? They are like the CFL not as good as NFL but can also destroy British Football (American football).
I'm not sure I can buy this until it's stops being about Korea alone, it just isn't fair to single them out just because they have the highest concentration of good players, and more of a gaming culture.
This is the same as Women having Seperate leagues.
If we let guys play in womens leagues... Women would get DESTROYED
Same as NFL and CFL.
Koreans should move to North America if they want to compete.
Sorry END OF STORY. Same with European Players.
Allowing Korean + Euro players will KILL NA Scene.
Edit:
BTW Catz duno if this Means something but you are THE ONLY NON TERRAN I will watch.
So... Thanks again for speaking out as I have been thinking this same thing for a LONG Time.
Big up for speaking out and taking all this shit that ppl on TL are giving you.
I honestly think some1 needs to get catz behind the scences in tournaments... Stop inviting the Koreas FFS... If you want Koreans vs NAs or Euros make a match like the Korea vs the World...
On June 18 2011 11:54 AKA. wrote: What would happen to British football (not soccer) if they allowed NFL teams to compete in their leagues? It would utterly destroy British football as they would have little chance to win. Yes the NFL would give better games, but if you want to see who's the best you have a world tournament.
If the American team wants to move to Britain, and commit to them that's fair.
So my question to you is:
Should British pro football teams just "get better" or should they be allowed their own league?
The fact is in NO sport (except where two close countries have an agreement) do teams from other countries compete in local leagues, they have WORLD tourneys to compete with each other, otherwise a few teams would travel the world cleaning up every tournament, and it would destroy the sport as a whole.
This example is why North America should have its own league for people who actually reside here.
So what your saying is that european players should also be banned cause they are better then NA players as now? They are like the CFL not as good as NFL but can also destroy British Football (American football).
That depends how they set it up. We could either have an agreement with europe that we can compete there and they here, or to separate each.
The situation with Korea where they can compete here, but we cant compete there without moving is just wrong.
On June 18 2011 12:04 Random321321 wrote: I'm not sure I can buy this until it's stops being about Korea alone, it just isn't fair to single them out just because they have the highest concentration of good players, and more of a gaming culture.
This is a misunderstanding that many people are making.
We didn't make it about Korea, they did by not allowing us into their league without moving there. It's not a fair system, and is not about the fact that they have the best gamers (that's just what brings it to light). If Koreans let us in via the internet, this would not be as big of a deal.
I agree 100% with everything CatZ said. I thought this exact same thing with MLG. I don't see how watching the koreans dominate all the NA and EU players would benefit E-Sports globally. I'm sure plenty of players were discouraged by this.
However, on a spectator side.. fuck that was cool as shit to watch.
1. GSL so far provides the highest prize money, and i dont see them excluding foreigners.... it's just that the foreigners have all failed to take that money back to the u.s. due to lack of skills, experience, or creativity.
2. So if we all acknowledged that the koreans are better sc2 players and think that we should exclude them from the North American scene, then how will the North American players ever improve or get to the level of koreans?
people improve their games by playing people that are better than them... if you isolate yourself and never play people that are better than you, how will you ever grow as a player?
i think by having the koreans in the NA tournaments, it will only help the NA players improve much faster.
On June 18 2011 12:04 Random321321 wrote: I'm not sure I can buy this until it's stops being about Korea alone, it just isn't fair to single them out just because they have the highest concentration of good players, and more of a gaming culture.
This is a misunderstanding that many people are making.
We didn't make it about Korea, they did by not allowing us into their league without moving there. It's not a fair system, and is not about the fact that they have the best gamers (that's just what brings it to light). If Koreans let us in via the internet, this would not be as big of a deal.
Foreigners can't enter Korean tournaments without being there because they're live in person tournaments. If you really want to exclude Koreans and Europeans from NASL, make it always a live and in person setting for the games.
Like his analogy with soccer. USA sucked shit in soccer but now are good... why? because they started leagues inside USA which not only motivated but made the soccer players in a way better because they trained harder saying i want to win this shit. Now instead of doing the league but at the time when they sucked shit and they instead did a world league kind of thing where they would play against the best (spain italy brazil blah blah) everytime they played a game or tournament, they would get better but at a much slower rate and always be demoralized. Plus if they would win people would just be like yea brazil knows they suck so they didnt try half the game.
I completely agree with him. It's nice to have mlg's and world tournaments where you get to see the best of both worlds but there needs to be tournaments with nice prize pools where a north american can be like ok i'm going to train for this tournament harder since i have a better chance of winning this(in turn making them better since they're motivated to train for it and all the practice) than lets say an mlg.
On June 18 2011 11:54 AKA. wrote: What would happen to British football (not soccer) if they allowed NFL teams to compete in their leagues? It would utterly destroy British football as they would have little chance to win. Yes the NFL would give better games, but if you want to see who's the best you have a world tournament.
If the American team wants to move to Britain, and commit to them that's fair.
So my question to you is:
Should British pro football teams just "get better" or should they be allowed their own league?
The fact is in NO sport (except where two close countries have an agreement) do teams from other countries compete in local leagues, they have WORLD tourneys to compete with each other, otherwise a few teams would travel the world cleaning up every tournament, and it would destroy the sport as a whole.
This example is why North America should have its own league for people who actually reside here.
So what your saying is that european players should also be banned cause they are better then NA players as now? They are like the CFL not as good as NFL but can also destroy British Football (American football).
That depends how they set it up. We could either have an agreement with europe that we can compete there and they here, or to separate each.
The situation with Korea where they can compete here, but we cant compete there without moving is just wrong.
I don't know what you mean by what is unfair since jinro and huk are competing in Korea. FXOpen is joining them soon. The reason why NA players can't compete in korea can also apply to the korean can compete here. GSL is running every month so there is little room for Korean to participating in all foreign tournaments. If Not all Korean teams have the Sponsor backing to sent them to us consider how expensive the airplane ticket is. Almost 2/5 top prize for MLG.
On June 18 2011 12:04 Random321321 wrote: I'm not sure I can buy this until it's stops being about Korea alone, it just isn't fair to single them out just because they have the highest concentration of good players, and more of a gaming culture.
This is a misunderstanding that many people are making.
We didn't make it about Korea, they did by not allowing us into their league without moving there. It's not a fair system, and is not about the fact that they have the best gamers (that's just what brings it to light). If Koreans let us in via the internet, this would not be as big of a deal.
Many issues
Theres going to be a flamewar because of lag and hacking.
Also if that were the case why wouldn't MLG be online?
why are the koreans this much better at sc2 than the north americans right now? the game came out at the same time, the top level people spend roughly the same amount of time playing the game... so what is it?
people like destiny and other streamers... i see them on playing ALLLLL THE TIME. so north american's top players play 12 hours a day, and koreans dont sleep and play 24 hours?
There is far more to the NA scene than just MLG and NASL. There are plenty of small tournaments where players have no worry of meeting a Korean or even a player of Idra's caliber. People are acting like players like MMA pop up in every single tournament instead of a extreme select few. The best thing about Koreans in MLG and whatnot is it helps foreign players see how they stand with the Koreans without having to go to Korea.
On June 18 2011 12:04 Random321321 wrote: I'm not sure I can buy this until it's stops being about Korea alone, it just isn't fair to single them out just because they have the highest concentration of good players, and more of a gaming culture.
This is a misunderstanding that many people are making.
We didn't make it about Korea, they did by not allowing us into their league without moving there. It's not a fair system, and is not about the fact that they have the best gamers (that's just what brings it to light). If Koreans let us in via the internet, this would not be as big of a deal.
Many issues
Theres going to be a flamewar because of lag and hacking.
Also if that were the case why wouldn't MLG be online?
Hmm some thinking to do lol
Some thinking on your part perhaps, did you not watch the video? "via the internet" doesn't mean playing the tourney online, it means signing up and qualifying online, then flying there and back.
On June 18 2011 12:05 RudrA wrote: I agree with CatZ
This is the same as Women having Seperate leagues.
If we let guys play in womens leagues... Women would get DESTROYED
Same as NFL and CFL.
Koreans should move to North America if they want to compete.
Sorry END OF STORY. Same with European Players.
Allowing Korean + Euro players will KILL NA Scene.
Edit:
BTW Catz duno if this Means something but you are THE ONLY NON TERRAN I will watch.
So... Thanks again for speaking out as I have been thinking this same thing for a LONG Time.
Big up for speaking out and taking all this shit that ppl on TL are giving you.
I honestly think some1 needs to get catz behind the scences in tournaments... Stop inviting the Koreas FFS... If you want Koreans vs NAs or Euros make a match like the Korea vs the World...
Except women and men have separate leagues cause of physical differences that are scientifically accepted and generally accepted by everyone. There is no racial difference between Koreans and non-Koreans. Hell, if that were so then Select would be as good as the top Korean players.
Also, women's leagues are not as big or prestigious as men's leagues typically (there are exceptions probably.) Unless you think the WNBA is more popular than the NBA. So in your hypothetical situation, the NA league would just be a giant joke and everyone would follow the EU/KR scene and just flat out ignore NA. So your idea KILLS the NA scene, if anything.
On June 18 2011 12:24 syrianrue wrote: just a bunch of excuses it seems like.
why are the koreans this much better at sc2 than the north americans right now? the game came out at the same time, the top level people spend roughly the same amount of time playing the game... so what is it?
people like destiny and other streamers... i see them on playing ALLLLL THE TIME. so north american's top players play 12 hours a day, and koreans dont sleep and play 24 hours?
The game came out at the same time.
However, the supporting infrastructure of the 2 scenes was nowhere near close.
Korean was ready to support a massive switch over from sc1 to sc2 and was fast on letting pros have decent practice regimes.
Also, because of their massive amounts of practice in sc1, they were more used to practicing a lot in sc2. Remember. In Korea, you were able to making a living out of just playing sc1.
That was not the case in NA, so a lot of ppl could not practice as much as the koreans, as they needed secondary jobs.
Plus. Ladder in NA is NOT a good practice. Even at the top GM level. That is why most pros have a very high winrate in the NA server. Its becuase most of the opponets they meet are far inferior. (Probably the only practice you can get is 'refining' your mechanics and reading some bullshit builds from your opponents. )
Just because you play the game for similar times (I doubt this is the case for most players though. ) there is a massive difference in HOW they spend that time.
On June 18 2011 12:04 Random321321 wrote: I'm not sure I can buy this until it's stops being about Korea alone, it just isn't fair to single them out just because they have the highest concentration of good players, and more of a gaming culture.
This is a misunderstanding that many people are making.
We didn't make it about Korea, they did by not allowing us into their league without moving there. It's not a fair system, and is not about the fact that they have the best gamers (that's just what brings it to light). If Koreans let us in via the internet, this would not be as big of a deal.
Many issues
Theres going to be a flamewar because of lag and hacking.
Also if that were the case why wouldn't MLG be online?
Hmm some thinking to do lol
Some thinking on your part perhaps, did you not watch the video? "via the internet" doesn't mean playing the tourney online, it means signing up and qualifying online, then flying there and back.
You should have clarified that than, just saying via internet to clear things up.
Yeah I've already thought it out. Anything online is at risk of hacks and lag. Look at how mush hackers were caught in sc2 so far and by some of the players that you would never though would do such a thing. Not to mention latency.
Secondly how about language barrier. You state that but it's not as easy as it seems for gomtv to run qualifiers here. Not only that you have to consider financially. Also out of all the people who do make it and really let's be honest what would the percentage be that would top 1st place. Not saying it won't happen but if the NA scene had that mush pro players as korea than maybe it would be worthwhile for them to do it. Than again if you are really that good you wouldn't need qualifiers and just crush koreans lol.
On June 18 2011 11:54 AKA. wrote: What would happen to British football (not soccer) if they allowed NFL teams to compete in their leagues? It would utterly destroy British football as they would have little chance to win. Yes the NFL would give better games, but if you want to see who's the best you have a world tournament.
If the American team wants to move to Britain, and commit to them that's fair.
So my question to you is:
Should British pro football teams just "get better" or should they be allowed their own league?
The fact is in NO sport (except where two close countries have an agreement) do teams from other countries compete in local leagues, they have WORLD tourneys to compete with each other, otherwise a few teams would travel the world cleaning up every tournament, and it would destroy the sport as a whole.
This example is why North America should have its own league for people who actually reside here.
So what your saying is that european players should also be banned cause they are better then NA players as now? They are like the CFL not as good as NFL but can also destroy British Football (American football).
That depends how they set it up. We could either have an agreement with europe that we can compete there and they here, or to separate each.
The situation with Korea where they can compete here, but we cant compete there without moving is just wrong.
I don't know what you mean by what is unfair since jinro and huk are competing in Korea. FXOpen is joining them soon. The reason why NA players can't compete in korea can also apply to the korean can compete here. GSL is running every month so there is little room for Korean to participating in all foreign tournaments. If Not all Korean teams have the Sponsor backing to sent them to us consider how expensive the airplane ticket is. Almost 2/5 top prize for MLG.
Ok I don't get how there's so many people who don't understand that the GSL excludes foreigners. You have to LIVE in Korea to play in the GSL, you can't just fly out for a tourney. This is not wrong, this is just like any major sport. If a British team wants to play in the NFL, they have to MOVE HERE, and vice versa, but they are allowed (it would just be extremely difficult).
The "not fair" part comes when Britain allows NFL teams to play in Britain while remaining (and playing) in the US, but not vice versa.
On June 18 2011 12:04 Random321321 wrote: I'm not sure I can buy this until it's stops being about Korea alone, it just isn't fair to single them out just because they have the highest concentration of good players, and more of a gaming culture.
This is a misunderstanding that many people are making.
We didn't make it about Korea, they did by not allowing us into their league without moving there. It's not a fair system, and is not about the fact that they have the best gamers (that's just what brings it to light). If Koreans let us in via the internet, this would not be as big of a deal.
Many issues
Theres going to be a flamewar because of lag and hacking.
Also if that were the case why wouldn't MLG be online?
Hmm some thinking to do lol
Some thinking on your part perhaps, did you not watch the video? "via the internet" doesn't mean playing the tourney online, it means signing up and qualifying online, then flying there and back.
You should have clarified that than, just saying via internet to clear things up.
Yeah I've already thought it out. Anything online is at risk of hacks and lag. Look at how mush hackers were caught in sc2 so far and by some of the players that you would never though would do such a thing. Not to mention latency.
Secondly how about language barrier. You state that but it's not as easy as it seems for gomtv to run qualifiers here. Not only that you have to consider financially. Also out of all the people who do make it and really let's be honest what would the percentage be that would top 1st place. Not saying it won't happen but if the NA scene had that mush pro players as korea than maybe it would be worthwhile for them to do it. Than again if you are really that good you wouldn't need qualifiers and just crush koreans lol.
The Koreans shouldn't allow us to do any of that, and neither should we allow them. Yet we do, despite your listed difficulties. We do, and they don't, an imbalance that gives us the shaft.
Also, on TL it is assumed that poster have at least read/watched the OP, it does not fall on me to reiterate the video.
On June 18 2011 11:54 AKA. wrote: What would happen to British football (not soccer) if they allowed NFL teams to compete in their leagues? It would utterly destroy British football as they would have little chance to win. Yes the NFL would give better games, but if you want to see who's the best you have a world tournament.
If the American team wants to move to Britain, and commit to them that's fair.
So my question to you is:
Should British pro football teams just "get better" or should they be allowed their own league?
The fact is in NO sport (except where two close countries have an agreement) do teams from other countries compete in local leagues, they have WORLD tourneys to compete with each other, otherwise a few teams would travel the world cleaning up every tournament, and it would destroy the sport as a whole.
This example is why North America should have its own league for people who actually reside here.
So what your saying is that european players should also be banned cause they are better then NA players as now? They are like the CFL not as good as NFL but can also destroy British Football (American football).
That depends how they set it up. We could either have an agreement with europe that we can compete there and they here, or to separate each.
The situation with Korea where they can compete here, but we cant compete there without moving is just wrong.
I don't know what you mean by what is unfair since jinro and huk are competing in Korea. FXOpen is joining them soon. The reason why NA players can't compete in korea can also apply to the korean can compete here. GSL is running every month so there is little room for Korean to participating in all foreign tournaments. If Not all Korean teams have the Sponsor backing to sent them to us consider how expensive the airplane ticket is. Almost 2/5 top prize for MLG.
Ok I don't get how there's so many people who don't understand that the GSL excludes foreigners. You have to LIVE in Korea to play in the GSL, you can't just fly out for a tourney. This is not wrong, this is just like any major sport. If a British team wants to play in the NFL, they have to MOVE HERE, and vice versa, but they are allowed (it would just be extremely difficult).
The "not fair" part comes when Britain allows NFL teams to play in Britain while remaining (and playing) in the US, but not vice versa.
Def don't agree
If you put the prize money together from all the small tournaments and big ones in America and compare it to the GSL and all their small tournaments pay a lot higher not to mention sponsers etc...
The main issue here is there is no one that has truly dominated koreans yet. What I mean by this is if your good enough than obviously you'd go over there and just take the house. Is that not correct? My two cents I just feel there is no foreigners that have reached a bonjwa status championship level that can crush any koreans. I feel in term of top players vs the koreans there is not enough top foreigners.
This is coming from someone who always roots for foreigners vs koreans, so keep that in mind.
Example: Let's say hypothetically say around 20 foreigners came out of no where. All bonjaws godly 2000apm and came and rocked korea. What would their reaction be?
They'd build a fucking statue of these foreigners, yea thats right I said it statue....
On June 18 2011 12:24 syrianrue wrote: just a bunch of excuses it seems like.
why are the koreans this much better at sc2 than the north americans right now? the game came out at the same time, the top level people spend roughly the same amount of time playing the game... so what is it?
people like destiny and other streamers... i see them on playing ALLLLL THE TIME. so north american's top players play 12 hours a day, and koreans dont sleep and play 24 hours?
people have given their opinions in order to answer that question dozens of times in this thread. why don't you try reading some of it?
hint: the quality of the practice one gets is very important.
On June 18 2011 12:04 Random321321 wrote: I'm not sure I can buy this until it's stops being about Korea alone, it just isn't fair to single them out just because they have the highest concentration of good players, and more of a gaming culture.
This is a misunderstanding that many people are making.
We didn't make it about Korea, they did by not allowing us into their league without moving there. It's not a fair system, and is not about the fact that they have the best gamers (that's just what brings it to light). If Koreans let us in via the internet, this would not be as big of a deal.
"They"? Is CatZ responsible for the rules for NA tournaments? I don't see why Korean players should be punished because of the rules of the tournament scene in Korea, it is not within their control.
Again, it seems clear they are being singled out because the players are good, and the rest of these reasons are just a posteriori justifications.
On June 18 2011 12:04 Random321321 wrote: I'm not sure I can buy this until it's stops being about Korea alone, it just isn't fair to single them out just because they have the highest concentration of good players, and more of a gaming culture.
This is a misunderstanding that many people are making.
We didn't make it about Korea, they did by not allowing us into their league without moving there. It's not a fair system, and is not about the fact that they have the best gamers (that's just what brings it to light). If Koreans let us in via the internet, this would not be as big of a deal.
"They"? Is CatZ responsible for the rules for NA tournaments? I don't see why Korean players should be punished because of the rules of the tournament scene in Korea, it is not within their control.
Again, it seems clear they are being singled out because the players are good, and the rest of these reasons are just a posteriori justifications.
Are NFL teams "being singled out because the players are good" by not letting them win Canadian prize money?
They are not responsible for the fact that the NFL doesn't let Canadian teams play!
Please read every part of a conversation before taking a piece out of context.
CatZ's explanation seems like a weasly way to avoid competition to me; unless cataz can provide us with a reason as to why you think the NA can not compete with the koreans
is it because they spend more time at this game? personally, i dont think so. in counter strike, on the server where i play (NA) i see kids with no life who would play all day, everyday. so the koreans in sc2 is better because they spend more time at this game? if so, perhaps you just lack the dedication?
Are they more creative at this games and are more willing to try new things?
Or is is because their tournaments have larger prize pool, so therefore, it incensitize their players to spend more time, more energy, and more brain power to strife to better themselves over the opponenets they encounter?
if so, couldn't NA simply provide better tournament prizes to encourage the NA players?
I really hate seeing these ridiculous self defeating explanation acknowledging that the koreans are better at this game.
Also, do you play this game to make money off tournament prizes? or do you play this game becasue you love the game and because you want to strive to be the best?
On June 18 2011 12:54 syrianrue wrote: CatZ's explanation seems like a weasly way to avoid competition to me; unless cataz can provide us with a reason as to why you think the NA can not compete with the koreans
is it because they spend more time at this game? personally, i dont think so. in counter strike, on the server where i play (NA) i see kids with no life who would play all day, everyday. so the koreans in sc2 is better because they spend more time at this game? if so, perhaps you just lack the dedication?
Are they more creative at this games and are more willing to try new things?
Or is is because their tournaments have larger prize pool, so therefore, it incensitize their players to spend more time, more energy, and more brain power to strife to better themselves over the opponenets they encounter?
if so, couldn't NA simply provide better tournament prizes to encourage the NA players?
I really hate seeing these ridiculous self defeating explanation acknowledging that the koreans are better at this game.
Also, do you play this game to make money off tournament prizes? or do you play this game becasue you love the game and because you want to strive to be the best?
Should a basketball player in India have to beat the players in the US in order to make a living in India?
By your argument US basketball teams should be able to go to India and win all their pro income. This would kill Indian basketball, but they should just L2P right?
Apologies for the bolding but some things need to be made 100% clear in this post.
The real thing is that not every big league should be a global league, it doesn't matter who is competing, Koreans, Europeans, Whatever.. The end result is that only the best players in the entire world will win the prize money, that is not a feasible framework for any pro gamers except for the absolute best, and makes it extremely difficult for up and coming players to make a living.
This is where people will argue "Oh but if you just train harder you can be the best and if you are truly talented up and comer you can easily make it to the top" No, this isn't realistic, even if all the countries had an equal amount of best players, the top 8-16 would still be the only players making money in the prize pool.[/b] Mid-level pros wouldn't win any tournaments that pay out if this is where the future of esports is going (and to suggest that everyone can be top-level is ambitious but again highly unrealistic).
Furthermore, how much fun is it really to know that every league has the same players, the same winners and the same level of play (no, no mid-level play those players won't bother in this format), we need a variety of leagues to suit a variety of players, it is really that simple and even Korea knows this. Why are there two tournaments, Code A and Code S in the GSL, Both paying out a reasonable amount? It's because they understand the top level players shouldn't be in direct competition with the lower level players.
We can achieve the same simply by making some leagues nation specific or state specific (unless they are willing to fly overseas and without us paying for the flights -.-), and as mentioned umpteen times earlier this is precisely how other sports accomodate to the various levels of play, world champions, national champions, state champions etc. Why do you think there was a WCG USA on top of the WCG World? It's for this same reason. And just think if there was no segregation of WCG USA and WCG World, you would probably not have heard of Day[9] or Artosis, this was their claim to fame.
u.s. basketball is good because of the african american that play in it. there's a reason why majority of the professional basketball players in the u.s. are african americans as opposed to the league years ago.
it's more due to the physical differences of the races. or do you think u.s. basketball team with only white players can easily defeat a european team? i dont think so.
now if the african nations have enough money to provide a nurturing environment for their athletes... wouldn't you think they would be able to compete?
the problem is... they dont have the finance, they're not a first world country. --------------------------------------
America HAS money. if america really want to develop better sc2 players, they certainly can. perhaps instead of arguing back and forth and thinking of ways to deny the other players from coming to NA to compete..... the time might be better spent on how we could encourage/accelerate the infrastructure of the NA sc2 competitive scene. more prizes, more sponsors, more public exposrues.
On June 18 2011 12:54 syrianrue wrote: CatZ's explanation seems like a weasly way to avoid competition to me; unless cataz can provide us with a reason as to why you think the NA can not compete with the koreans
is it because they spend more time at this game? personally, i dont think so. in counter strike, on the server where i play (NA) i see kids with no life who would play all day, everyday. so the koreans in sc2 is better because they spend more time at this game? if so, perhaps you just lack the dedication?
Are they more creative at this games and are more willing to try new things?
Or is is because their tournaments have larger prize pool, so therefore, it incensitize their players to spend more time, more energy, and more brain power to strife to better themselves over the opponenets they encounter?
if so, couldn't NA simply provide better tournament prizes to encourage the NA players?
I really hate seeing these ridiculous self defeating explanation acknowledging that the koreans are better at this game.
Also, do you play this game to make money off tournament prizes? or do you play this game becasue you love the game and because you want to strive to be the best?
Should a basketball player in India have to beat the players in the US in order to make a living in India?
By your argument US basketball teams should be able to go to India and win all their pro income. This would kill Indian basketball, but they should just L2P right?
On June 18 2011 12:54 syrianrue wrote: CatZ's explanation seems like a weasly way to avoid competition to me; unless cataz can provide us with a reason as to why you think the NA can not compete with the koreans
is it because they spend more time at this game? personally, i dont think so. in counter strike, on the server where i play (NA) i see kids with no life who would play all day, everyday. so the koreans in sc2 is better because they spend more time at this game? if so, perhaps you just lack the dedication?
Are they more creative at this games and are more willing to try new things?
Or is is because their tournaments have larger prize pool, so therefore, it incensitize their players to spend more time, more energy, and more brain power to strife to better themselves over the opponenets they encounter?
if so, couldn't NA simply provide better tournament prizes to encourage the NA players?
I really hate seeing these ridiculous self defeating explanation acknowledging that the koreans are better at this game.
Also, do you play this game to make money off tournament prizes? or do you play this game becasue you love the game and because you want to strive to be the best?
Should a basketball player in India have to beat the players in the US in order to make a living in India?
By your argument US basketball teams should be able to go to India and win all their pro income. This would kill Indian basketball, but they should just L2P right?
thank you. lets take your example, provided India's basketball had the acceptance / the following that the NBA has or similar in smaller numbers, India's basketball if left alone could potentially eventually compete with any other country, we have the fanbase and the following in NA and EU to make our own scenes grow stronger and more powerful too.
there are plenty of tournaments that koreans don't attend. the only NA tournaments they attend are NASL and MLG. the only reason why nasl was able to field such a big prize pool is because they invited international players.
most people wouldn't care about watching matches like catz vs drewbie or cruncher vs fenix. his example of a $3000 florida only tournament is a total joke. nobody on the internet would give a damn about the tournament, so how is that tournament organizer supposed to make a return from their investment?
you can't field big prize tournaments for players that can't draw flies to shit.
his argument and logic is totally solid, but the NASL isn't interested in being fair, all they care about is getting lots of viewers, and the korean pros competing helps out.
Running a primarily lan based tournament in North American over a significant period of time similar to how the GSL is done in Korea is extremely prohibitive. Keep in mind the region is 250 times the size of South Korea, and even within South Korea all the major pro gaming teams are concentrated within a much smaller area than the actual breadth of the entire country. So anything with major lan elements would be nearly as prohibitive to many North American players as those from overseas.
Anything with a major online component such as NASL for example would really be remiss as a business enterprise to disallow players who are not North American residents to play in their tournaments. There are many fans who are far more interested in the proposition of a league that is open to all rather than one limited to a specific geographical region. Especially one that is considered a secondary region in terms of skill. In addition there is very little if any additional cost to the tournament organizers that would maybe make them inclined to limit participation from said international players. As such there is no real economic incentive for organizers of big tournaments to run a league specifically for the North American region. As the majority of data that exists suggests that such a proposition would be less profitable for the investors, organizers and sponsors.
Long story short North American players are probably just going to have to get used to the situation, because unless someone wants to start a, "major" league only for them out of pure altruism, everything is likely to stay the same.
Whether or not the need to step up, or get out of the way will prove to be a positive or negative influence for the North American scene is really at the moment an unanswered question.
What CatZ is trying to say is that it is simply not fair that koreans get to compete in our biggest tournaments while staying in korea and competing in the GSL at the same time. Allowing Koreans or even Europeans to compete in the North American Star League is absurd, it should not even be named the North American Starleague, just "Starleague." What the NASL is right now is a global online tournament where the koreans only have to travel to North America is when they know they are going to walk away with at least $25,000. CatZ is 100% correct when it comes to growing eSports internally. Especially for someone like me, who is an up and comer and wants to make a name for himself and become a dominant force in the starcraft community, feels like crap when in order to qualify for our North American leagues I would have to beat the biggest names in the world, which discourages new talent. How many new names did you see making NASL application videos, little to none because what kind of Masters league idiot would even attempt to beat oGsMC or Naniwa, and better yet, who would even get picked through an application process. Making a name for yourself in the starcraft community is something that is very difficult to do, maybe too difficult. What it boils down to is, eSports should be a profession. Money is always what it comes down to. Someone should be able to say when asked, I am a professional video game player, and they need to be able to say that without being one of the best starcraft players in the nation. Being a professional at anything implies that they should be able to make a living off of it, and in this case, the average Grandmaster player cannot.
But when it comes to a viewers standpoint and entertainment value, the producers of the Starleague would not give us anything less than the best for how hyped it was, and it has not failed. In that regard, yes, if thats how you want the world of starcraft to be, centrated around korea, then everything should be going quite nicely for you. The MLG/GSL partnership makes it where our best players are shipped off to Korea to play in the GSL, simply putting Korea on an even higher pedestal, making Korea some sort of prize that should be sought after.
I'm going to get hated for saying this but I feel it's also the fan's expectations' fault. As others have said the Koreans do bring the money to Western Esports. But this is because everyone has such a high expectation of wanting to see the 'absolute best' players, almost just because they are the 'absolute best'. It means slightly less significant tournaments such as Dreamhack have a significant incentive to bring koreans into the tournament, even though the rest of the players are of a lower level and the tournament is not a big one; these players are disadvantaged by the huge jump in skill level. If we weren't so damn high-maintenance and realised that even players like Huk, Axslav, CatZ, Painuser are still in 0.01% upper percentile of players then smaller leagues could still prosper and we wouldn't need the backing of a company like IGN to bring in viewers to these tournaments. Just think how few viewers the IPL would get if it was a more amateur tournament with the same player pool. It's a sad time for SC2 when fans don't care enough about their own nation's players simply because their play isn't at the utmost highest level.
Poll: Would you buy a pass to pro sc2 gaming events without koreans?
No, because I want to see the best vs the best (28)
85%
NASL (2)
6%
No, I wouldn't (2)
6%
Don't Care (1)
3%
MLG (0)
0%
IEM (0)
0%
Dreamhack (0)
0%
Other (0)
0%
No, because I only watch foreigners (0)
0%
33 total votes
Your vote: Would you buy a pass to pro sc2 gaming events without koreans?
(Vote): NASL (Vote): MLG (Vote): IEM (Vote): Dreamhack (Vote): Other (Vote): No, I wouldn't (Vote): No, because I want to see the best vs the best (Vote): No, because I only watch foreigners (Vote): Don't Care
Poll: Your opinion if there were no koreans
Foreign players should improve play (12)
75%
By letting Koreans compete NA will step up their game and give us better games (4)
25%
That would only mean players from NA can particpate if we exclude koreans and everyone else (0)
0%
Will it make the NA scene a lot stronger? (0)
0%
No, MLG and NASL will love a lot of viewers (0)
0%
Other- Specify (0)
0%
16 total votes
Your vote: Your opinion if there were no koreans
(Vote): That would only mean players from NA can particpate if we exclude koreans and everyone else (Vote): Will it make the NA scene a lot stronger? (Vote): By letting Koreans compete NA will step up their game and give us better games (Vote): No, MLG and NASL will love a lot of viewers (Vote): Foreign players should improve play (Vote): Other- Specify
edit NASL Will lose a lot of viewers not love sigh basically what I did was take, well try to anyways most of the people's argument in this thread so let's see how it holds up
I think what Catz is trying to say, which I agree with largly, is from the perspective of a pro gamer. People who may look at tournaments and want to compete and become a pro gamer may get discouraged if korean players are there to take the money that they would need to win to get their confidence up/ start playing more professionally and contribute to the gaming aspect of the esports scene.
i think is good the koreans play in NASL and MLG it lest the other players know how far behind or how close they are to the korean players, and i think that if they do a tournament for NA only with big price money most NA players would just get as good as it takes to win that tournament but not as good as they can to compete world wide.
On June 18 2011 13:51 nichan wrote: i think is good the koreans play in NASL and MLG it lest the other players know how far behind or how close they are to the korean players, and i think that if they do a tournament for NA only with big price money most NA players would just get as good as it takes to win that tournament but not as good as they can to compete world wide.
This is why we need global tournaments as well as national and local tournaments, so they can do well nationally even if they do poorly on a global scale.
Seriously all of you who believe what catz is saying must not really know how the world runs. How in the world would it be in anyone's best interest to put money up for players no one wants to watch? That would never help a sponsor's bottom line. Do you not think every sport in the world is the same exact way it is in starcraft? What percentage of athletes make their living off of their sport? I bet you it's a smaller percentage than in SC due to the huge pool of people playing sports. I can play SC2 for 5 hours a week and be in the 95th percentile...... I played basketball in high school and if I kept doing it for 5 hours a week I wouldn't have made it to the 75th percentile.
On June 18 2011 13:51 nichan wrote: i think is good the koreans play in NASL and MLG it lest the other players know how far behind or how close they are to the korean players, and i think that if they do a tournament for NA only with big price money most NA players would just get as good as it takes to win that tournament but not as good as they can to compete world wide.
This is why we need global tournaments as well as national and local tournaments, so they can do well nationally even if they do poorly on a global scale.
Yes but I don't think people will watch those tournaments knowing that the players that are playing those tournament are not as good as other players is like watching high school football when you can be watching college or the NFL
or it might be like watching the NFL but with high school player i think in time people just wont watch.
On June 18 2011 13:51 nichan wrote: i think is good the koreans play in NASL and MLG it lest the other players know how far behind or how close they are to the korean players, and i think that if they do a tournament for NA only with big price money most NA players would just get as good as it takes to win that tournament but not as good as they can to compete world wide.
This is why we need global tournaments as well as national and local tournaments, so they can do well nationally even if they do poorly on a global scale.
Yes but I don't think people will watch those tournaments knowing that the players that are playing those tournament are not as good as other players is like watching high school football when you can be watching college or the NFL
or it might be like watching the NFL but with high school player i think in time people just wont watch.
It's not like that at all, being the best in your country is a far, far bigger achievement than being the best in your high school, and the players are still of a very high caliber.
The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game.
Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone:
There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger.
Catz instead of complaining about other tournaments accepting foreign participants maybe you should consider creating your own league something like the American League? There are PLENTY of online tournaments you can play for a smaller price pool with an higher chance of success. It is called North American STAR league! Not North American Amateur League! To have a Star league and not have the actual stars would be stupid.
You say that it is not possible to make a living off Starcraft, yet there are tons of people making alot of money through playing. You should not live on price pool money, you don't see any athletes live on nothing but the money they make from the olympics, why should Starcraft players be able to? You might say that only the top top top players can make a living off it, then why are players such as Trump who is not a pro tournament player able to quit his job and focus only on Starcraft?
And you say that it's unfair for koreans to live in korea and participate in the GSL and still do online qualifications for NASL and similar. WHY is this not possible for you? You say money, it cost too much. But do you not think it cost just as much for the koreans? There is nothing stopping you from moving to korea and play in the GSL and qualify for the NASL from Korea except your own skill and the reason you do not want to live there. Until you make the sacrifice to live in the Starcraft mecca of the world you can not complain over the people who currently live there, it may not be fair but guess what? Life ain't fair.
How many Koreans are able to participate in the MLG? How many Koreans are there that are better than 90% of the foreign players who participate? If you get good enough, sponsors will make it possible for you to live in Korea (just look at the Liquid team). But until then do not complain about the best players in the world participating in the most prestigious leagues.
Summary: Do not whine about fighting the best players in the world in Star leagues if you want more smaller tournaments then do something about it. Do you think IGN, NASL or even the EGcup would be possible without Starcraft players initiative? Get sponsors and set up your own tournament, sure it might be hard, but to talk about no one doing it and not actually doing anything yourself is just plain lazy.
This is like soccer(football) in the US, the US has it's own national league, and it has time to develope, but no one really gives a shit about it, but when the world cup came around recently, everyone started to watch it as the best US representatives played for a shot at the finals in the world cup, they went in as major underdogs, and most people even Americans thought they weren't going to win the championship, but people still watched and supported it regardless. You had a lot more people watch the world cup, and got more interested in soccer, because the best of the best for each country was playing it generates more interest than decent but second rate players playing each other.
On June 18 2011 13:23 CatNzHat wrote: his argument and logic is totally solid, but the NASL isn't interested in being fair, all they care about is getting lots of viewers, and the korean pros competing helps out.
so.. then you would have to agree that inviting the koreans was a good thing??
After all being 'fair' to random NA players isn't going to GROW ESPORTS which you seem to champion so diligently. What will grow ESPORTS is to have a huge tournament in NA that gets a ton of views and exposure, something the koreans have brought to the NASL.
People are seriously out of their minds with this 'debate.' Hey guys, newsflash ESPORTS is NOTHING yet, not everyone is going to have a fair chance at making a living through ESPORTS. There simply isn't enough money or attention in the sport to give everyone a chance, yet...
The most important thing we can do right now is hold huge draw (viewers/attention) tournaments to keep the momentum going and continue to build an infrastructure. Having Koreans and other ACTUAL professional level players is key to this. These people will consistently perform well or win tournaments and build fan bases.
The biggest events in SC2 history in terms of viewership have been the GSL and big international tournaments where people from all over the world are competing with great competition. These tournaments generally have mega prize pools and tons of HYPE. The exception is MLG whose prize pool is laughable but still they maintain a lot of respect for their tournament because of the competition and team representation.
Eventually as ESPORTS hopefully grows to the level of other second tier (read: not the NFL or NBA, or the other highest echelon sports) individual sports in the west things will balance out. There will be more than enough local homegrown tournaments and events that bad amateur level NA players can earn a living just like golfers that are good enough to qualify for PGA tour cards but have no hopes of winning a major.
The people who follow the weekly cups aren't the people who are going to make esports explode. The ones that gain all of the attention are the huge international leagues like the NASL, GSL, MLG, and DreamHack. Investors and sponsors want to see big stream numbers, big attendance numbers and a potential to see a ROI. They don't care who the players are or where they are from, they care that consumers give a shit about the tournament they're sponsoring or hosting.
The only way for esports to grow is to get more money, esports and SC2 are a business. Some people really need to grow up. Not everyone gets a piece of the pie, not everyone is good enough to make a living in video games. ESPORTS isn't for kids, its business.
On June 18 2011 15:01 primebeef wrote: This is like soccer(football) in the US, the US has it's own national league, and it has time to develope, but no one really gives a shit about it, but when the world cup came around recently, everyone started to watch it as the best US representatives played for a shot at the finals in the world cup, they went in as major underdogs, and most people even Americans thought they weren't going to win the championship, but people still watched and supported it regardless. You had a lot more people watch the world cup, and got more interested in soccer, because the best of the best for each country was playing it generates more interest than decent but second rate players playing each other.
Yes but if foreign soccer teams came to america and won all our games then making money as an american soccer player would be impossible, and there would never be a competitive american team in the world cup.
I agree it should be done the way soccer and other sports are done, but that's actually the opposite of your argument. No one ever said there shouldn't be global tournaments.
Edit: What is all this about being "fair" to NA players, we just want starcraft here run like it is in Korea, or like every other sport in the world is run, as that is a proven way to grow a sport.
On June 18 2011 14:34 NineteenSC2 wrote: The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game.
Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone:
There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger.
MLG and NASL is considered to be highest Tournements in NA. If they want to count as high Tournement you have invite Koreans simple as that. MLG and NASL aren't some random tournements. Your Tennis analogy is bad. If this organisers of this canadian open wants that their canadian open should be considered one of the big Tennis tourneys you have to invite big players. It is like english Tennis players whine that they dont win wembley because of Nadal and Federer.
On June 18 2011 14:34 NineteenSC2 wrote: The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game.
Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone:
There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger.
MLG and NASL is considered to be highest Tournements in NA. If they want to count as high Tournement you have invite Koreans simple as that. MLG and NASL aren't some random tournements. Your Tennis analogy is bad. If this organisers of this canadian open wants that their canadian open should be considered one of the big Tennis tourneys you have to invite big players. It is like english Tennis players whine that they dont win wembley because of Nadal and Federer.
Not really, it's perfectly legitimate to have a national, or continental tourney and still be popular and "high." The NFL has not suffered for not inviting foreign teams, nor have the thousands of professional teams that play in national leagues around the world.
Your tennis example is also bad, once again, no one said that global tournaments shouldn't happen, just that they should be the result of finding the best in each country via national leagues. Just like every sport in the world.
People are seriously out of their minds with this 'debate.' Hey guys, newsflash ESPORTS is NOTHING yet, not everyone is going to have a fair chance at making a living through ESPORTS. There simply isn't enough money or attention in the sport to give everyone a chance, yet...
The most important thing we can do right now is hold huge draw (viewers/attention) tournaments to keep the momentum going and continue to build an infrastructure. Having Koreans and other ACTUAL professional level players is key to this. These people will consistently perform well or win tournaments and build fan bases.
The biggest events in SC2 history in terms of viewership have been the GSL and big international tournaments where people from all over the world are competing with great competition. These tournaments generally have mega prize pools and tons of HYPE. The exception is MLG whose prize pool is laughable but still they maintain a lot of respect for their tournament because of the competition and team representation.
Eventually as ESPORTS hopefully grows to the level of other second tier (read: not the NFL or NBA, or the other highest echelon sports) individual sports in the west things will balance out. There will be more than enough local homegrown tournaments and events that bad amateur level NA players can earn a living just like golfers that are good enough to qualify for PGA tour cards but have no hopes of winning a major.
The people who follow the weekly cups aren't the people who are going to make esports explode. The ones that gain all of the attention are the huge international leagues like the NASL, GSL, MLG, and DreamHack. Investors and sponsors want to see big stream numbers, big attendance numbers and a potential to see a ROI. They don't care who the players are or where they are from, they care that consumers give a shit about the tournament they're sponsoring or hosting.
The only way for esports to grow is to get more money, esports and SC2 are a business. Some people really need to grow up. Not everyone gets a piece of the pie, not everyone is good enough to make a living in video games. ESPORTS isn't for kids, its business
Most tournaments that aren't big enough to run huge events AREN'T GOING TO MAKE A REGIONAL TOURNAMENT.
They're going to make an online tournament and invite all the big names because it's a lot cheaper to do it all online, and it just doesn't make sense to only invite players who are x miles away from the server.
If CatZ wants tournaments to make make decisions that would have made sense 10 years ago and not be as successful as they should be given their size then he has no idea what's good for esports.
And most Koreans don't even join these smaller tournaments anyways because of latency issues so the problem has already been solved; you see plenty of new faces in them anyways.
I think he's only upset since his small chances of winning big tournaments are diminishing faster with the introduction of Korean players.
CatZ is so right on so many levels. He hit the nail on the head near the end when he was talking about how discouraging it is to see a non-Korean beat a Korean and the forums are just pages of posts about how it was lag, the Korean didn't try hard, it's late, they have exams, they're more focused on GSL, etc. How are the north american or european players supposed to be encouraged to get better and be great when all they ever hear is how them beating Koreans is a fluke victory every single time.
He is NOT saying Koreans should not be allowed in non-Korean leagues, but rather that the non-Korean leagues like MLG and NASL should really establish themselves first and then gradually invite some Koreans to come play. Having champs from North American and Europe help encourage players in that area because they have something to hold onto.
On June 18 2011 14:34 NineteenSC2 wrote: The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game.
Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone:
There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger.
MLG and NASL is considered to be highest Tournements in NA. If they want to count as high Tournement you have invite Koreans simple as that. MLG and NASL aren't some random tournements. Your Tennis analogy is bad. If this organisers of this canadian open wants that their canadian open should be considered one of the big Tennis tourneys you have to invite big players. It is like english Tennis players whine that they dont win wembley because of Nadal and Federer.
Not really, it's perfectly legitimate to have a national, or continental tourney and still be popular and "high." The NFL has not suffered for not inviting foreign teams, nor have the thousands of professional teams that play in national leagues around the world.
Your tennis example is also bad, once again, no one said that global tournaments shouldn't happen, just that they should be the result of finding the best in each country via national leagues. Just like every sport in the world.
NFL is the highest League in the world for AF. Anyway AF is a Team game and Teams are not comparable to a single player. Your NFL example only makes sense if in NFL foreigner players are now allowed but i doubt there are not allowed.
You could also whine that Dirk Nowithky and his Teams has von the NBA championship because he is a german and NBA is a NA Baskatball league.
NASL and MLG wants to be considered on of the big leagues, so it logical to invite EU and Kr player.
On June 18 2011 14:34 NineteenSC2 wrote: The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game.
Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone:
There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger.
MLG and NASL is considered to be highest Tournements in NA. If they want to count as high Tournement you have invite Koreans simple as that. MLG and NASL aren't some random tournements. Your Tennis analogy is bad. If this organisers of this canadian open wants that their canadian open should be considered one of the big Tennis tourneys you have to invite big players. It is like english Tennis players whine that they dont win wembley because of Nadal and Federer.
Not really, it's perfectly legitimate to have a national, or continental tourney and still be popular and "high." The NFL has not suffered for not inviting foreign teams, nor have the thousands of professional teams that play in national leagues around the world.
Your tennis example is also bad, once again, no one said that global tournaments shouldn't happen, just that they should be the result of finding the best in each country via national leagues. Just like every sport in the world.
NFL is the highest League in the world for AF. Ayyway AF is a Team game and Teams are not comparable to a single player. Your NFL example only makes sense if in NFL foreigner players are now allowed but i doubt there are not allowed.
You could also whine that Dirk Nowithky and his Teams has von the NBA championship because he is a german and NBA is a NA Baskatball league.
NASL and MLG wants to be considered on of the big leagues, so it logical to invite EU and Kr player.
the nba had long established itself as being dominated by americans before europeans and other foreign players slowly leaked into the league. Now there are gradually more europeans because the nba has grown internationally and has that solid american background where the best in the world want to come compete because they know thats where the best talent plays, not just because it is all-americans, but because the best foreign players are there as well.
On June 18 2011 14:34 NineteenSC2 wrote: The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game.
Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone:
There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger.
MLG and NASL is considered to be highest Tournements in NA. If they want to count as high Tournement you have invite Koreans simple as that. MLG and NASL aren't some random tournements. Your Tennis analogy is bad. If this organisers of this canadian open wants that their canadian open should be considered one of the big Tennis tourneys you have to invite big players. It is like english Tennis players whine that they dont win wembley because of Nadal and Federer.
Not really, it's perfectly legitimate to have a national, or continental tourney and still be popular and "high." The NFL has not suffered for not inviting foreign teams, nor have the thousands of professional teams that play in national leagues around the world.
Your tennis example is also bad, once again, no one said that global tournaments shouldn't happen, just that they should be the result of finding the best in each country via national leagues. Just like every sport in the world.
NFL is the highest League in the world for AF. Ayyway AF is a Team game and Teams are not comparable to a single player. Your NFL example only makes sense if in NFL foreigner players are now allowed but i doubt there are not allowed.
You could also whine that Dirk Nowithky and his Teams has von the NBA championship because he is a german and NBA is a NA Baskatball league.
NASL and MLG wants to be considered on of the big leagues, so it logical to invite EU and Kr player.
Wrong on all points. In my argument the NFL is Korea, using a system that DOES NOT allow foreign teams to compete in the american league. If the team moves to the USA sure they have a chance of getting into the NFL, but that's not counter to mine or Catz point, but in support of it.
"For Dirk Nowitzki, the only thing that could come close to being an NBA champion for the first time was celebrating it with the fans in his adopted hometown of Dallas."
Thats quoted from CBSSports.com, Dirk Nowitzki lives in Dallas, throwing your whole point out the window.
Catz and I agree that if you move here to compete that's 100% legitimate, but to fly here to clean up and leave every few weeks is not, Korea doesn't allow it, the NFL doesn't allow it, the NBA doesn't allow it, no pro sport in the world that I know of allows it.
The problem that CatZ was trying to explain, and I know this because hes trying to argue the same thing that iNcoNtroL and everyone has said before is that the koreans coming over and owning the scene early will deter the competition and will kill the entire drive of americans (aka the people living in NA - aka young people trying to start their lives) and in-turn destroy the efforts to grow the scene in north america. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is accurate and one of the major parts to the argument.
I'm sure someone else has already said it, but things like this always get too heated and there are way too many pages and too little time for me to see for myself unfortunately.
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
On June 18 2011 16:06 TheOne85 wrote: The problem that CatZ was trying to explain, and I know this because hes trying to argue the same thing that iNcoNtroL and everyone has said before is that the koreans coming over and owning the scene early will deter the competition and will kill the entire drive of americans (aka the people living in NA - aka young people trying to start their lives) and in-turn destroy the efforts to grow the scene in north america. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is accurate and one of the major parts to the argument.
I'm sure someone else has already said it, but things like this always get too heated and there are way too many pages and too little time for me to see for myself unfortunately.
then they aren't good enough or dedicated to be professionals. what kind of scene is this if we are striving to build our bronze medal leagues? What are we a bunch of lazy gamers who don't want to try as hard but want the fame and fortune of being a pro level player/athlete? Hmm the American way after all!
like i said before esports grows with business interest, not whiny kids that want to be gamers for a living. international and koreans specifically grow our scene due to the numbers they pull in. the numbers the businesses that may invest in esports actually care about.
On June 18 2011 14:34 NineteenSC2 wrote: The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game.
Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone:
There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger.
MLG and NASL is considered to be highest Tournements in NA. If they want to count as high Tournement you have invite Koreans simple as that. MLG and NASL aren't some random tournements. Your Tennis analogy is bad. If this organisers of this canadian open wants that their canadian open should be considered one of the big Tennis tourneys you have to invite big players. It is like english Tennis players whine that they dont win wembley because of Nadal and Federer.
Not really, it's perfectly legitimate to have a national, or continental tourney and still be popular and "high." The NFL has not suffered for not inviting foreign teams, nor have the thousands of professional teams that play in national leagues around the world.
Your tennis example is also bad, once again, no one said that global tournaments shouldn't happen, just that they should be the result of finding the best in each country via national leagues. Just like every sport in the world.
NFL is the highest League in the world for AF. Ayyway AF is a Team game and Teams are not comparable to a single player. Your NFL example only makes sense if in NFL foreigner players are now allowed but i doubt there are not allowed.
You could also whine that Dirk Nowithky and his Teams has von the NBA championship because he is a german and NBA is a NA Baskatball league.
NASL and MLG wants to be considered on of the big leagues, so it logical to invite EU and Kr player.
Wrong on all points. In my argument the NFL is Korea, using a system that DOES NOT allow foreign teams to compete in the american league. If the team moves to the USA sure they have a chance of getting into the NFL, but that's not counter to mine or Catz point, but in support of it.
"For Dirk Nowitzki, the only thing that could come close to being an NBA champion for the first time was celebrating it with the fans in his adopted hometown of Dallas."
Thats quoted from CBSSports.com, Dirk Nowitzki lives in Dallas, throwing your whole point out the window.
Catz and I agree that if you move here to compete that's 100% legitimate, but to fly here to clean up and leave every few weeks is not, Korea doesn't allow it, the NFL doesn't allow it, the NBA doesn't allow it, no pro sport in the world that I know of allows it.
To play and train Baskatball you have to be there. Pretty simple. It was NASL dicision to play some aspects of this tournement online. Why you have to be in NA if you have to play online. If NASL is like GSL then you have to be there. You have to argue with the NASL organisators why they shouldn't allowed Kr. But NASL guys are not r sponsible for that the NA players are not good at SC2. Your argument ist flawed, because the origanisators of those tournements has others interests than Catz and yours. If Catz think he is so right he can search for sponsors to support his NA-only league with huge prize pools. But what the NASL guys do with their money is only their choice.
On June 18 2011 16:06 TheOne85 wrote: The problem that CatZ was trying to explain, and I know this because hes trying to argue the same thing that iNcoNtroL and everyone has said before is that the koreans coming over and owning the scene early will deter the competition and will kill the entire drive of americans (aka the people living in NA - aka young people trying to start their lives) and in-turn destroy the efforts to grow the scene in north america. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is accurate and one of the major parts to the argument.
I'm sure someone else has already said it, but things like this always get too heated and there are way too many pages and too little time for me to see for myself unfortunately.
then they aren't good enough or dedicated to be professionals. what kind of scene is this if we are striving to build our bronze medal leagues? What are we a bunch of lazy gamers who don't want to try as hard but want the fame and fortune of being a pro level player/athlete? Hmm the American way after all!
like i said before esports grows with business interest, not whiny kids that want to be gamers for a living. international and koreans specifically grow our scene due to the numbers they pull in. the numbers the businesses that may invest in esports actually care about.
Good lord dude you don't get anyone's point. It should be possible to be pro gamer by being among the best in AMERICA, you shouldn't have to be 1-16 in the world. If E-Sports is to grow to normal sport levels, it HAS to be localized or there's just no money for growth. Imagine if in order to be a pro football team you had to compete with the best teams in the world every time so that only the top 16 in the world get any real money. America would have every pro team! That's just lame and the sport would never grow, except in america.
Obviously I can't truly decipher the motives behind his statements but it sounds like a case of "Oh no someone from far away is better than me, therefore it's his fault and he must leave." >_>
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
On June 18 2011 14:34 NineteenSC2 wrote: The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game.
Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone:
There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger.
MLG and NASL is considered to be highest Tournements in NA. If they want to count as high Tournement you have invite Koreans simple as that. MLG and NASL aren't some random tournements. Your Tennis analogy is bad. If this organisers of this canadian open wants that their canadian open should be considered one of the big Tennis tourneys you have to invite big players. It is like english Tennis players whine that they dont win wembley because of Nadal and Federer.
Not really, it's perfectly legitimate to have a national, or continental tourney and still be popular and "high." The NFL has not suffered for not inviting foreign teams, nor have the thousands of professional teams that play in national leagues around the world.
Your tennis example is also bad, once again, no one said that global tournaments shouldn't happen, just that they should be the result of finding the best in each country via national leagues. Just like every sport in the world.
NFL is the highest League in the world for AF. Ayyway AF is a Team game and Teams are not comparable to a single player. Your NFL example only makes sense if in NFL foreigner players are now allowed but i doubt there are not allowed.
You could also whine that Dirk Nowithky and his Teams has von the NBA championship because he is a german and NBA is a NA Baskatball league.
NASL and MLG wants to be considered on of the big leagues, so it logical to invite EU and Kr player.
Wrong on all points. In my argument the NFL is Korea, using a system that DOES NOT allow foreign teams to compete in the american league. If the team moves to the USA sure they have a chance of getting into the NFL, but that's not counter to mine or Catz point, but in support of it.
"For Dirk Nowitzki, the only thing that could come close to being an NBA champion for the first time was celebrating it with the fans in his adopted hometown of Dallas."
Thats quoted from CBSSports.com, Dirk Nowitzki lives in Dallas, throwing your whole point out the window.
Catz and I agree that if you move here to compete that's 100% legitimate, but to fly here to clean up and leave every few weeks is not, Korea doesn't allow it, the NFL doesn't allow it, the NBA doesn't allow it, no pro sport in the world that I know of allows it.
To play and train Baskatball you have to be there. Pretty simple. It was NASL dicision to play some aspects of this tournement online. Why you have to be in NA if you have to play online. If NASL is like GSL then you have to be there. You have to argue with the NASL organisators why they shouldn't allowed Kr. But NASL guys are not r sponsible for that the NA players are not good at SC2. Your argument ist flawed, because the origanisators of those tournements has others interests than Catz and yours. If Catz think he is so right he can search for sponsors to support his NA-only league with huge prize pools. But what the NASL guys do with their money is only their choice.
I agree NASL money their choice, but that's not relevant to a hypothetical argument, I never said we should force people to spend money a certain way.
However, it is in the best interest of NASL to grow e-sports in america, so in my opinion they should disallow non-residents from competing, for reasons I've stated a dozen times.
On June 18 2011 16:06 TheOne85 wrote: The problem that CatZ was trying to explain, and I know this because hes trying to argue the same thing that iNcoNtroL and everyone has said before is that the koreans coming over and owning the scene early will deter the competition and will kill the entire drive of americans (aka the people living in NA - aka young people trying to start their lives) and in-turn destroy the efforts to grow the scene in north america. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is accurate and one of the major parts to the argument.
I'm sure someone else has already said it, but things like this always get too heated and there are way too many pages and too little time for me to see for myself unfortunately.
then they aren't good enough or dedicated to be professionals. what kind of scene is this if we are striving to build our bronze medal leagues? What are we a bunch of lazy gamers who don't want to try as hard but want the fame and fortune of being a pro level player/athlete? Hmm the American way after all!
like i said before esports grows with business interest, not whiny kids that want to be gamers for a living. international and koreans specifically grow our scene due to the numbers they pull in. the numbers the businesses that may invest in esports actually care about.
Good lord dude you don't get anyone's point. It should be possible to be an AMERICAN professional gamer, you shouldn't have to be 1-16 in the world. If E-Sports is to grow to normal sport levels, it HAS to be localized or there's just no money for growth. Imagine if in order to be a pro football team you had to compete with the best teams in the world every time so that only the top 16 in the world get any real money. America would have every pro team! That's just lame and the sport would never grow, except in america.
No what you (and people in this thread with your opinion) don't understand is that is impossible, AT THIS STAGE OF ESPORTS DEVELOPMENT. Localized tournaments do not get enough attention or business interest to support professional gaming (making your entire income from playing in tournaments and from sponsors).
The only way this will ever be possible is to continue to have marquee tournaments with huge stars that get tons of stream views and numbers investors/sponsors care about. The real money in SC2 as an esport is in Korea, we need to siphon there success to build our own.
The rest of your post is nonsense. It already IS possible to be an American professional gamer, why isn't there? Because 4 koreans are invited to MLG? Because the NASL has a handful? Your football analogy is equally as silly because there are salary caps. These salary caps spread talent across the teams (COMPRISED OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD). MLB would be a better example as they have no cap and the most money can afford the most talent. Are you saying it's not worth it to play MLB if you aren't on the Yankees or the Red Sox? Don't be ridiculous.
However, like I've been saying it's ridiculous to compare esports to any major sport at this point. Esports cant afford a seat in an NFL stadium if you put them into comparison terms of scale. At this point those sports are so gigantic you don't have to be the best player in the world (someone in the NFL/MLB) to 'make a living' you can play in triple A, Arena Football, CFL, or other international leagues. The point is you don't start with triple A and hope it becomes the NFL, that's going backwards. You start with the best players in the world to GROW the sport, once the sport is big enough to self sustain, tiers will develop just like it has in every major sport on the planet.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
On June 18 2011 16:06 TheOne85 wrote: The problem that CatZ was trying to explain, and I know this because hes trying to argue the same thing that iNcoNtroL and everyone has said before is that the koreans coming over and owning the scene early will deter the competition and will kill the entire drive of americans (aka the people living in NA - aka young people trying to start their lives) and in-turn destroy the efforts to grow the scene in north america. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is accurate and one of the major parts to the argument.
I'm sure someone else has already said it, but things like this always get too heated and there are way too many pages and too little time for me to see for myself unfortunately.
then they aren't good enough or dedicated to be professionals. what kind of scene is this if we are striving to build our bronze medal leagues? What are we a bunch of lazy gamers who don't want to try as hard but want the fame and fortune of being a pro level player/athlete? Hmm the American way after all!
like i said before esports grows with business interest, not whiny kids that want to be gamers for a living. international and koreans specifically grow our scene due to the numbers they pull in. the numbers the businesses that may invest in esports actually care about.
Good lord dude you don't get anyone's point. It should be possible to be an AMERICAN professional gamer, you shouldn't have to be 1-16 in the world. If E-Sports is to grow to normal sport levels, it HAS to be localized or there's just no money for growth. Imagine if in order to be a pro football team you had to compete with the best teams in the world every time so that only the top 16 in the world get any real money. America would have every pro team! That's just lame and the sport would never grow, except in america.
No what you (and people in this thread with your opinion) don't understand is that is impossible, AT THIS STAGE OF ESPORTS DEVELOPMENT. Localized tournaments do not get enough attention or business interest to support professional gaming (making your entire income from playing in tournaments and from sponsors).
The only way this will ever be possible is to continue to have marquee tournaments with huge stars that get tons of stream views and numbers investors/sponsors care about. The real money in SC2 as an esport is in Korea, we need to siphon there success to build our own.
The rest of your post is nonsense. It already IS possible to be an American professional gamer, why isn't there? Because 4 koreans are invited to MLG? Because the NASL has a handful? Your football analogy is equally as silly because there are salary caps. These salary caps spread talent across the teams (COMPRISED OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD). MLB would be a better example as they have no cap and the most money can afford the most talent. Are you saying it's not worth it to play MLB if you aren't on the Yankees or the Red Sox? Don't be ridiculous.
However, like I've been saying it's ridiculous to compare esports to any major sport at this point. Esports cant afford a seat in an NFL stadium if you put them into comparison terms of scale. At this point those sports are so gigantic you don't have to be the best player in the world (someone in the NFL/MLB) to 'make a living' you can play in triple A, Arena Football, CFL, or other international leagues. The point is you don't start with triple A and hope it becomes the NFL, that's going backwards. You start with the best players in the world to GROW the sport, once the sport is big enough to self sustain, tiers will develop just like it has in every major sport on the planet.
You took that football example way to literally, I was only talking about the general structure as an analogy... I did not compare the scale nor salary. I did not speak of buying talent or anything you said really. That was not the point of the analogy. Would you prefer i used minor league baseball? Do I have to come up with the perfect sport analogy for you to be able to comprehend my point? Unbelievable...stay on topic.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
But the problem with that is that there are not enough really good American players to even fill a 16 player tournament as it is now.
Well you wanted an tournament like the GSL and I doubt there are alot of players in the GSL who live on the other side of Korea. I never called you stupid, I said that the idea of having an local tournament at the stage where we are at now in a country spread over three timezones is stupid. Not you or Catz, just the idea.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
But the problem with that is that there are not enough really good American players to even fill a 16 player tournament as it is now.
Well you wanted an tournament like the GSL and I doubt there are alot of players in the GSL who live on the other side of Korea. I never called you stupid, I said that the idea of having an local tournament at the stage where we are at now in a country spread over three timezones is stupid. Not you or Catz, just the idea.
You are correct, there is not enough pro american gamers to create an american GSL. That wont change with the current system either. We need to be able to grow outside of koreas shadow, much the same way american soccer is growing, or we'll never have an american GSL.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
On June 18 2011 12:14 Souljah wrote: I agree 100% with everything CatZ said. I thought this exact same thing with MLG. I don't see how watching the koreans dominate all the NA and EU players would benefit E-Sports globally. I'm sure plenty of players were discouraged by this.
However, on a spectator side.. fuck that was cool as shit to watch.
Precisely
And thats one of the "problems" of the issue. Atm there might not be a good alignment between what the audience wants and what is best long term for the non-korean scene. "Might not" being the key phrase.
And why its worth talking and speculating about,
Speculate/philosophy a little on how the e-sports scene can grow in EU/NA(regions outside Korea really ) - and THEN relate that to Catz argument.
It seems to me that a lot of comments are not taking that step and just kneejerking to the "Koreans are just better, live with it and get better".
On June 18 2011 16:06 TheOne85 wrote: The problem that CatZ was trying to explain, and I know this because hes trying to argue the same thing that iNcoNtroL and everyone has said before is that the koreans coming over and owning the scene early will deter the competition and will kill the entire drive of americans (aka the people living in NA - aka young people trying to start their lives) and in-turn destroy the efforts to grow the scene in north america. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is accurate and one of the major parts to the argument.
I'm sure someone else has already said it, but things like this always get too heated and there are way too many pages and too little time for me to see for myself unfortunately.
then they aren't good enough or dedicated to be professionals. what kind of scene is this if we are striving to build our bronze medal leagues? What are we a bunch of lazy gamers who don't want to try as hard but want the fame and fortune of being a pro level player/athlete? Hmm the American way after all!
like i said before esports grows with business interest, not whiny kids that want to be gamers for a living. international and koreans specifically grow our scene due to the numbers they pull in. the numbers the businesses that may invest in esports actually care about.
Good lord dude you don't get anyone's point. It should be possible to be an AMERICAN professional gamer, you shouldn't have to be 1-16 in the world. If E-Sports is to grow to normal sport levels, it HAS to be localized or there's just no money for growth. Imagine if in order to be a pro football team you had to compete with the best teams in the world every time so that only the top 16 in the world get any real money. America would have every pro team! That's just lame and the sport would never grow, except in america.
No what you (and people in this thread with your opinion) don't understand is that is impossible, AT THIS STAGE OF ESPORTS DEVELOPMENT. Localized tournaments do not get enough attention or business interest to support professional gaming (making your entire income from playing in tournaments and from sponsors).
The only way this will ever be possible is to continue to have marquee tournaments with huge stars that get tons of stream views and numbers investors/sponsors care about. The real money in SC2 as an esport is in Korea, we need to siphon there success to build our own.
The rest of your post is nonsense. It already IS possible to be an American professional gamer, why isn't there? Because 4 koreans are invited to MLG? Because the NASL has a handful? Your football analogy is equally as silly because there are salary caps. These salary caps spread talent across the teams (COMPRISED OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD). MLB would be a better example as they have no cap and the most money can afford the most talent. Are you saying it's not worth it to play MLB if you aren't on the Yankees or the Red Sox? Don't be ridiculous.
However, like I've been saying it's ridiculous to compare esports to any major sport at this point. Esports cant afford a seat in an NFL stadium if you put them into comparison terms of scale. At this point those sports are so gigantic you don't have to be the best player in the world (someone in the NFL/MLB) to 'make a living' you can play in triple A, Arena Football, CFL, or other international leagues. The point is you don't start with triple A and hope it becomes the NFL, that's going backwards. You start with the best players in the world to GROW the sport, once the sport is big enough to self sustain, tiers will develop just like it has in every major sport on the planet.
You took that football example way to literally, I was only talking about the general structure as an analogy... I did not compare the scale nor salary. I did not speak of buying talent or anything you said really. That was not the point of the analogy. Would you prefer i used minor league baseball? Do I have to come up with the perfect sport analogy for you to be able to comprehend my point? Unbelievable...stay on topic.
Ugh, I'm done with you. You've lacked any semblance of critical thinking.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
On June 18 2011 15:13 AKA. wrote: Edit: What is all this about being "fair" to NA players, we just want starcraft here run like it is in Korea, or like every other sport in the world is run, as that is a proven way to grow a sport.
Important point that.
It is amazing how many here are saying that Catz should just do like the Koreans - when Catz is basically advocating that the regional league should be run like the Korean ones.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Actually what the MLS is doing is exactly what the MLG is doing just on a much higher scale.
The MLS is paying foreign players exponentially more money than the average MLS player (154,000avg which is insanely skewed by the few foreign superstars, some NA MLS pros make 42,000k/yr, while Beckham gets 6.2million and those other 6 foreign superstars get 1m+.). Also most of the international superstars don't live in the US, they play in our shitty league for an easy payday and commute between the seasons.
Now tell me how is this any different than Korean superstars coming to American tournaments/leagues for easy pay days that also grow our scene due to the attention and viewers they bring in. What is the fundamental difference? I'd love to hear it..
-they don't live in the US -they are making WAY more money -they are much better than the rest of the leagues players -they are being brought in and paid more to gain attention to the less popular sport
The major problem with SC2 isn't that Koreans are beating us in our own major tournaments, it's that there's no local scenes. You have MLG, NASL, and some other online tourneys. There needs to be support from LAN centers. You NEED a local community unless you want to end up the same was as Brood War. Also support your local LAN center, don't let them die like arcades did.
On June 18 2011 13:12 coL.CatZ wrote: thank you. lets take your example, provided India's basketball had the acceptance / the following that the NBA has or similar in smaller numbers, India's basketball if left alone could potentially eventually compete with any other country, we have the fanbase and the following in NA and EU to make our own scenes grow stronger and more powerful too.
This must be why the Chinese Basketball League and the Canadian Football League turn out such huge numbers of world-class players, right? There is little appeal for fans in watching a clearly inferior product (which limits the amount of sponsorship dollars such a league can potentially receive), and the inevitable result of a two-tiered system with non-interacting leagues is that the superior league will use the lower league as a de facto farm system and will lure away sufficiently good players. It's absurd to think that the lower league will catch up to the superior league in quality of play over time, this has basically never happened in the history of competition.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Actually what the MLS is doing is exactly what the MLG is doing just on a much higher scale.
The MLS is paying foreign players exponentially more money than the average MLS player (154,000avg which is insanely skewed by the few foreign superstars, some NA MLS pros make 42,000k/yr, while Beckham gets 6.2million and those other 6 foreign superstars get 1m+.). Also most of the international superstars don't live in the US, they play in our shitty league for an easy payday and commute between the seasons.
Now tell me how is this any different than Korean superstars coming to American tournaments/leagues for easy pay days that also grow our scene due to the attention and viewers they bring in. What is the fundamental difference? I'd love to hear it..
-they don't live in the US -they are making WAY more money -they are much better than the rest of the leagues players -they are being brought in and paid more to gain attention to the less popular sport
hmmm, seems oddly familar...
-They do live in the US ~If Koreans want to just live here during MLG or w/e season that fine. Not arguing against that at all. Free flights to a tourney every few weeks is another story. -If they make more money that they would in korea, many will move here. fantastic -If they are better cool, if not w/e. they should play for the country of their residence. -Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating american stars will grow the sport long term.
On June 18 2011 13:12 coL.CatZ wrote: thank you. lets take your example, provided India's basketball had the acceptance / the following that the NBA has or similar in smaller numbers, India's basketball if left alone could potentially eventually compete with any other country, we have the fanbase and the following in NA and EU to make our own scenes grow stronger and more powerful too.
This must be why the Chinese Basketball League and the Canadian Football League turn out such huge numbers of world-class players, right? There is little appeal for fans in watching a clearly inferior product (which limits the amount of sponsorship dollars such a league can potentially receive), and the inevitable result of a two-tiered system with non-interacting leagues is that the superior league will use the lower league as a de facto farm system and will lure away sufficiently good players. It's absurd to think that the lower league will catch up to the superior league in quality of play over time, this has basically never happened in the history of competition.
It happens all the time, unexpected countries beat us at Olympic basketball, we got better at soccer ect.
The chinease basketball and canadian football have naught to do with being an inferior product, sports fans have clearly demonstrated the ability to be insanely supportive of awful teams. It has to do with the cultural popularity of the sport in general, if we moved the NFL to canada it wouldn't necessarily be an instant hit.
You bring up a point that if the US simply isn't culturally accepting of esports then it will not grow by my logic. I agree, however if this is the case we a screwed with or without Koreans here, so I choose to not bring up that point.
I do think that, unlike canadian football, the US is ready to push esports to a new level given proper conditions, but in this I could be wrong.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Players that go to Korea and do well gain fame and some amount of fortune which they can use to their advantage once they leave to draw bigger crowds to other tournaments since so many people watch the GSL. If a foreigner won Code S he would be a huge draw for any other tournament he participated in.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Players that go to Korea and do well gain fame and some amount of fortune which they can use to their advantage once they leave to draw bigger crowds to other tournaments since so many people watch the GSL. If a foreigner won Code S he would be a huge draw for any other tournament he participated in.
This is true, however because he is forced to live in korea to compete there, the likelihood of him strengthening our esport is limited, and would be to a much lesser degree than he grows korean esports since he'd really add to foreign subscribers.
On the other hand if that player won the major league in the US, then went on to play a global tourney and won that, wow would that have an impact on US esports.
On June 18 2011 17:26 AKA. wrote:It happens all the time, unexpected countries beat us at Olympic basketball, we got better at soccer ect.
The countries that beat the US in olympic basketball had most of their starters playing in the NBA. I don't think you can seriously argue that this would have happened if Argentina or Spain had all their players only competing domestically. You are actually proving my point for me.
On June 18 2011 17:26 AKA. wrote: The chinease basketball and canadian football have naught to do with being an inferior product, sports fans have clearly demonstrated the ability to be insanely supportive of awful teams. It has to do with the cultural popularity of the sport in general, if we moved the NFL to canada it wouldn't necessarily be an instant hit.
Basketball is really popular in China, and the CFL actually puts up very respectable attendance figures. These teams are supported by fans! The point is that leagues such as these can be successful up to a point. But it's not as if either league has closed the skill/talent gap with the NBA/NFL, or as if the Chinese Basketball League has approached the revenues of the NBA despite the gigantic, growing Chinese economy. This is because fans are not stupid, they can support their local leagues and whatnot, but ultimately they want to see the best players play. And sponsors recognize this and allocate their sponsorship dollars accordingly.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Actually what the MLS is doing is exactly what the MLG is doing just on a much higher scale.
The MLS is paying foreign players exponentially more money than the average MLS player (154,000avg which is insanely skewed by the few foreign superstars, some NA MLS pros make 42,000k/yr, while Beckham gets 6.2million and those other 6 foreign superstars get 1m+.). Also most of the international superstars don't live in the US, they play in our shitty league for an easy payday and commute between the seasons.
Now tell me how is this any different than Korean superstars coming to American tournaments/leagues for easy pay days that also grow our scene due to the attention and viewers they bring in. What is the fundamental difference? I'd love to hear it..
-they don't live in the US -they are making WAY more money -they are much better than the rest of the leagues players -they are being brought in and paid more to gain attention to the less popular sport
hmmm, seems oddly familar...
-They do live in the US ~If Koreans want to just live here during MLG or w/e season that fine. Not arguing against that at all. Free flights to a tourney every few weeks is another story. -If they make more money that they would in korea, many will move here. fantastic -If they are better cool, if not w/e. they should play for the country of their residence. -Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating american stars will grow the sport long term.
-Many of them don't live in the US, you can say that if you'd like but it holds no merit. Beckham did purchase a home in 2007 in Beverly Hills but spends most of his time back home in England. As of 2011 I'm not even sure if he still owns the Beverly Hills home. This is completely irrelevant anyway, and totally arbitrary.
-So what is going to be your arbitrary timeline for it to be OK for foreigners to come and stay, 3 days tournament not long enough? If they stay in the US for 3 months is that good? 6 months? 21 days? 98 days? Is it OK for Korean teams to send their players every 3 months for 3 days to win MLG? Since you're completely hung up on the physical time they are within the countries borders, what is it going to be for you to think it is OK?
"Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating American stars will grow the sport long term."
You have yet to demonstrate why that would be the case as opposed to myself and others offering real world examples of how sports have grown in the past, or how money actually works. I'd love, fucking LOVE to go watch an MLS game and have someone say "hmm I'm not sure about this, do these players on the field actually LIVE IN THE US? Hmm, I'm not sure if I can support this, I need to know exactly where these players are from and if they are living within the US." Because guess what, that's never fucking happened EVER. People only care about watching good, entertaining soccer games. I've also never read about NA soccer players crying about better foreigners coming into the MLS with 10x their salary.
Let me ask you this would the MLS fail if in the 2012 season if 75% of their players come from clubs in brazil and only reside in the US during the season? (Here a hint: nobody would care if they level of play and entertainment stayed the same or got better.)
On June 18 2011 13:12 coL.CatZ wrote: thank you. lets take your example, provided India's basketball had the acceptance / the following that the NBA has or similar in smaller numbers, India's basketball if left alone could potentially eventually compete with any other country, we have the fanbase and the following in NA and EU to make our own scenes grow stronger and more powerful too.
This must be why the Chinese Basketball League and the Canadian Football League turn out such huge numbers of world-class players, right? There is little appeal for fans in watching a clearly inferior product (which limits the amount of sponsorship dollars such a league can potentially receive), and the inevitable result of a two-tiered system with non-interacting leagues is that the superior league will use the lower league as a de facto farm system and will lure away sufficiently good players. It's absurd to think that the lower league will catch up to the superior league in quality of play over time, this has basically never happened in the history of competition.
It happens all the time, unexpected countries beat us at Olympic basketball, we got better at soccer ect.
The chinease basketball and canadian football have naught to do with being an inferior product, sports fans have clearly demonstrated the ability to be insanely supportive of awful teams. It has to do with the cultural popularity of the sport in general, if we moved the NFL to canada it wouldn't necessarily be an instant hit.
You bring up a point that if the US simply isn't culturally accepting of esports then it will not grow by my logic. I agree, however if this is the case we a screwed with or without Koreans here, so I choose to not bring up that point.
I do think that, unlike canadian football, the US is ready to push esports to a new level given proper conditions, but in this I could be wrong.
Olympic basketball and NBA are very different games. The rules and reffing are completely different. The fact that the US can win while playing a different game every year just shows how inferior other countries are to us. There's also the fact that there's many NBA players on the other teams.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Players that go to Korea and do well gain fame and some amount of fortune which they can use to their advantage once they leave to draw bigger crowds to other tournaments since so many people watch the GSL. If a foreigner won Code S he would be a huge draw for any other tournament he participated in.
This is true, however because he is forced to live in korea to compete there, the likelihood of him strengthening our esport is limited, and would be to a much lesser degree than he grows korean esports since he'd really add to foreign subscribers.
On the other hand if that player won the major league in the US, then went on to play a global tourney and won that, wow would that have an impact on US esports.
Our esports are weak because esports is still relativity new and our tournaments aren't made to develop players like the Korean ones are, which is why players that go to Korea come back better than they were even if they were only there for a month. Cutting out Koreans from NASL and MLG does nothing to solve that problem it just uses them as scapegoats. Winning a NA only competition right now isn't impressive because the competition is so weak, which is why guys like Naniwa almost ripped everyone to bits at MLG Dallas. I rather have our players go to Korea, get better, and come back to show off their skills than watch weak competition as there needs to be major changes in the NA scene if the players are to ever improve other than cutting all the Koreans out.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Actually what the MLS is doing is exactly what the MLG is doing just on a much higher scale.
The MLS is paying foreign players exponentially more money than the average MLS player (154,000avg which is insanely skewed by the few foreign superstars, some NA MLS pros make 42,000k/yr, while Beckham gets 6.2million and those other 6 foreign superstars get 1m+.). Also most of the international superstars don't live in the US, they play in our shitty league for an easy payday and commute between the seasons.
Now tell me how is this any different than Korean superstars coming to American tournaments/leagues for easy pay days that also grow our scene due to the attention and viewers they bring in. What is the fundamental difference? I'd love to hear it..
-they don't live in the US -they are making WAY more money -they are much better than the rest of the leagues players -they are being brought in and paid more to gain attention to the less popular sport
hmmm, seems oddly familar...
-They do live in the US ~If Koreans want to just live here during MLG or w/e season that fine. Not arguing against that at all. Free flights to a tourney every few weeks is another story. -If they make more money that they would in korea, many will move here. fantastic -If they are better cool, if not w/e. they should play for the country of their residence. -Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating american stars will grow the sport long term.
-Many of them don't live in the US, you can say that if you'd like but it holds no merit. Beckham did purchase a home in 2007 in Beverly Hills but spends most of his time back home in England. As of 2011 I'm not even sure if he still owns the Beverly Hills home. This is completely irrelevant anyway, and totally arbitrary.
-So what is going to be your arbitrary timeline for it to be OK for foreigners to come and stay, 3 days tournament not long enough? If they stay in the US for 3 months is that good? 6 months? 21 days? 98 days? Is it OK for Korean teams to send their players every 3 months for 3 days to win MLG? Since you're completely hung up on the physical time they are within the countries borders, what is it going to be for you to think it is OK?
"Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating American stars will grow the sport long term."
You have yet to demonstrate why that would be the case as opposed to myself and others offering real world examples of how sports have grown in the past, or how money actually works. I'd love, fucking LOVE to go watch an MLS game and have someone say "hmm I'm not sure about this, do these players on the field actually LIVE IN THE US? Hmm, I'm not sure if I can support this, I need to know exactly where these players are from and if they are living within the US." Because guess what, that's never fucking happened EVER. People only care about watching good, entertaining soccer games. I've also never read about NA soccer players crying about better foreigners coming into the MLS with 10x their salary.
Let me ask you this would the MLS fail if in the 2012 season if 75% of their players come from clubs in brazil and only reside in the US during the season? (Here a hint: nobody would care if they level of play and entertainment stayed the same or got better.)
We are working with a loose definition of "living here" when it comes to people so rich they can go to Italy for breakfast. However, they do earn their salary here, whereas the Koreans earn theirs in Korea, then come to the US to earn our tourney prizes. These soccer pros are not earning pay in two country's at once (from the sport, excluding side money like doing commercials).
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Players that go to Korea and do well gain fame and some amount of fortune which they can use to their advantage once they leave to draw bigger crowds to other tournaments since so many people watch the GSL. If a foreigner won Code S he would be a huge draw for any other tournament he participated in.
This is true, however because he is forced to live in korea to compete there, the likelihood of him strengthening our esport is limited, and would be to a much lesser degree than he grows korean esports since he'd really add to foreign subscribers.
On the other hand if that player won the major league in the US, then went on to play a global tourney and won that, wow would that have an impact on US esports.
Our esports are weak because esports is still relativity new and our tournaments aren't made to develop players like the Korean ones are, which is why players that go to Korea come back better than they were even if they were only there for a month. Cutting out Koreans from NASL and MLG does nothing to solve that problem just using them as scapegoats. Winning a NA only competition right now isn't impressive because the competition is so weak, which is why guys like Naniwa almost ripped everyone to bits at MLG Dallas. I rather have our players go to Korea, get better, and come back to show off their skills than watch weak competition as there needs to be major changes in the NA scene if the players are to ever improve other than cutting all the Koreans out.
I actually argued in favor of people going to korea, because they actually are forced to live their and commit to the GSL.
People are making the same arguments i responded to 5 pages past and have been takeing recent posts out of the context I set up for them. Since no one can be bothered to actually read the thread before posting, and I'm far to lazy to reiterate it all, I'm stopping until I see a post of sustenance.
Plus at one point during this I had a pro gamer thank me, which kinda made it all worth it already
On June 18 2011 17:50 oxxo wrote: Olympic basketball and NBA are very different games. The rules and reffing are completely different. The fact that the US can win while playing a different game every year just shows how inferior other countries are to us. There's also the fact that there's many NBA players on the other teams.
You can't use the argument both ways, if foreign players are playing in the NBA then the different rule set is a disadvantage to them as well.
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Players that go to Korea and do well gain fame and some amount of fortune which they can use to their advantage once they leave to draw bigger crowds to other tournaments since so many people watch the GSL. If a foreigner won Code S he would be a huge draw for any other tournament he participated in.
This is true, however because he is forced to live in korea to compete there, the likelihood of him strengthening our esport is limited, and would be to a much lesser degree than he grows korean esports since he'd really add to foreign subscribers.
On the other hand if that player won the major league in the US, then went on to play a global tourney and won that, wow would that have an impact on US esports.
Our esports are weak because esports is still relativity new and our tournaments aren't made to develop players like the Korean ones are, which is why players that go to Korea come back better than they were even if they were only there for a month. Cutting out Koreans from NASL and MLG does nothing to solve that problem just using them as scapegoats. Winning a NA only competition right now isn't impressive because the competition is so weak, which is why guys like Naniwa almost ripped everyone to bits at MLG Dallas. I rather have our players go to Korea, get better, and come back to show off their skills than watch weak competition as there needs to be major changes in the NA scene if the players are to ever improve other than cutting all the Koreans out.
I actually argued in favor of people going to korea, because they actually are forced to live their and commit to the GSL.
People are making the same arguments i responded to 5 pages past and have been takeing recent posts out of the context I set up for them. Since no one can be bothered to actually read the thread before posting, and I'm far to lazy to reiterate it all, I'm stopping until I see a post of sustenance.
Plus at one point during this I had a pro gamer thank me, which kinda made it all worth it already
Honestly I don't completely agree with how the Korean system is set up and don't think we should try to emulate it exactly. We should take advantage of the internet to reduce cost for organizers and players.
People are focusing too much on MLG/NASL. In Europe they have multiple small and mid level tournaments that provide enough for players like White Ra but aren't big enough to attract outside attention which is why Koreans don't come over so there is no reason to ban them from entering.
On June 17 2011 11:51 Datum wrote: The problem with this is that the comparison between progamers and countries is silly. While his argument may be financially motivated, it isn't economically motivated. It has nothing to do with trade or commerce. Prize money doesn't benefit national esporta scenes nearly as much as it does progamers. I'm not disagreeing with the argument (or agreeing with it), I'm simply disagreeing with your analysis of it.
Yes, that is correct. The argument misconceives the economics of this whole thing. Esports is a global phenomena and nationhood is largely irrelevant.
Another thing: people don't care about the nationality of players as much as some people think.
Actually the nationality point is arguable. I will use China as an example: almost nobody was interested in basketball until Yao Ming is famous. No one was interested in tennis until Li Na shocked everyone. (by no one, I mean no chinese) but I agree with not comparing progaming and national economy, it is just way too small to be much of contribution. But the protectionism and open market operation argument still stands.
I personally thinks that protectionism is the way to go, the amount of protection is what should be the main point of argument.
On June 17 2011 11:51 Datum wrote: The problem with this is that the comparison between progamers and countries is silly. While his argument may be financially motivated, it isn't economically motivated. It has nothing to do with trade or commerce. Prize money doesn't benefit national esporta scenes nearly as much as it does progamers. I'm not disagreeing with the argument (or agreeing with it), I'm simply disagreeing with your analysis of it.
Yes, that is correct. The argument misconceives the economics of this whole thing. Esports is a global phenomena and nationhood is largely irrelevant.
Another thing: people don't care about the nationality of players as much as some people think.
Actually the nationality point is arguable. I will use China as an example: almost nobody was interested in basketball until Yao Ming is famous. No one was interested in tennis until Li Na shocked everyone. (by no one, I mean no chinese) but I agree with not comparing progaming and national economy, it is just way too small to be much of contribution. But the protectionism and open market operation argument still stands.
I personally thinks that protectionism is the way to go, the amount of protection is what should be the main point of argument.
Actually you're confusing cause and effect. Basketball grew popular in China, which caused more interest amongst Chinese youth to play basketball, which led to the CBA and cultivating players like Yao Ming.
The CBA started in 1995, Yao Ming was born in 1980, so he was 15 at the time the CBA was started.
Either way, the ironic part of your analogy is that it works against Catz' argument, considering there's quite a lot of black players in the CBA. I presume most are from the US, so if CBA is analogous to NASL and NBA is GSL, then clearly the lack of a non-Chinese player ban has not killed the basketball scene in China, seeing as how popular basketball is in China and players like Yao Ming gaining attention he otherwise would not.
On June 18 2011 17:50 oxxo wrote: Olympic basketball and NBA are very different games. The rules and reffing are completely different. The fact that the US can win while playing a different game every year just shows how inferior other countries are to us. There's also the fact that there's many NBA players on the other teams.
You can't use the argument both ways, if foreign players are playing in the NBA then the different rule set is a disadvantage to them as well.
lol caught. Buy anyways, I can understand both sides of the argument here. For example, you could consider Korean's coming to American tourneys as being the same as NBA players deciding to play for a second team in a less prestigious league.
I find it difficult to see if this were to happen, would that inject growth into the lower league or would the probable dominance of the NBA players eventually wash out all the non NBA ones?
However, one thing is pretty certain, if the Western tourneys want more prestige than being second level, then they are gonna have to invite the best players.
Do people want a large spread(and by large spread I mean x10 more than you can actually watch) of mediocre television shows or a sizable number of impressive television shows?
Sure, you can grow the overseas Esports scene. You can split the ten best players into ten leagues but who would watch all of them? Do you want to see the the ten best players playing against each other in the same league or do you want to see the ten best players playing against no-names? Do you want to see top players playing against each other or do you want to separate them so that we can see no-names play? Do you want even better matches from the best players or more matches by mediocre players?
Speaking in economic terms, it is better to invest in a country that has a comparative advantage. Korea has the comparative advantage now.
There are players who are studying part-time in the Code S and Code A league. If the money from gaming was enough such that they could give up studying you can see even better matches from them. Imagine if Code A and Code S had 64 players each and if every Code A match was like a current Code S match and every Code S match was like a GSTL final.
Would you rather have less competitions but better players or would you rather have more competitions and more no-names?
The opportunity cost of preventing top Korean players(and by top Korean players I mean all GSL players) who are now competing in overseas tournaments from future overseas tournaments means that they will have lesser incentive to play. Imagine if the future Code S matches are the standard of today's Code A. Do you really want it? Would people want to watch it? Also, with a smaller concentration of viewers in the GSL, GSL ticket prices would also rise and the player base will contract.
Imo, money should be invested in Korean players(to be more precise Korean standard players, which includes foreign players who play at that level). Korean standard foreign players would have no problem having Koreans in any competition they play since they are equal with them. There is not much value in over-expansion such that we gain more good players at the expense of the best players.
On June 18 2011 14:34 NineteenSC2 wrote: The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game.
Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone:
There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger.
[/QUOTE]
Wtf, I'm sorry but the part about replays must be the dumbest piece of evidence ever. You can see videos of Losira, July, MMA and MC plastered all over GOMTV.net. If you're too cheap to pay for it that's your own problem, but the content is there and available to you.
In fact your overall argument holds no water.
If your favorite NA players were any good at the game, maybe they'd get far enough to matchup against each other. Lol, don't blame the Koreans, blame your NA players.
I also find it funny that CatZ comes in here, says "i'm not referring to myself" and then also adds "i still think my opinion is right", but then never really looks at what other people are saying, nor really replies to them to try and argue his viewpoint.
On June 19 2011 10:30 ct2299 wrote: I also find it funny that CatZ comes in here, says "i'm not referring to myself" and then also adds "i still think my opinion is right", but then never really looks at what other people are saying, nor really replies to them to try and argue his viewpoint.
agreed
you basically just summarized this thread thank you
The video starts with catz saying that non koreans can compete with koreans then suddenly he starts going on another tangent by saying that koreans shouldn't play in the nasl. Well, clearly koreans are better players and the chances of them winning an 'offline' tournament is much higher compared with eu and then na players. You can see it in the nasl and at the last dreamhack when mc won it. If non koreans had a good chance of winning, then having koreans compete wouldn't be an issue.
Also, it's not as if korea and their players are taking prize money out of non korean tournaments because gsl has a partnership with mlg to bring na/eu players to korea. (it's quite obvious the code s/code a spots are for non koreans since the players they send from korea are usually already in code s/code a.
Also i believe naniwa and thorzain are going to korea and staying with a korean team. Also huk and jinro have been there for ages and the gsl/koreans are actually trying their best to foster a international gaming environment for everybody.
I remember in the gsl supertournament, many foreign players didn't want to risk going to korea to play for a share of the prize pool since they might go there and have a negative return after accommodation and upkeep costs. The fact is a lot of koreans play in a pretty tough environment, having progaming houses etc. Tlo is also in a progaming house but that's the first time i've heard of that from a western team. I think the reason why koreans and europeans have much better results than americans (except idra) is because they play to become better rather than play to win.
American culture is basically winner takes all. Nobody remembers second best. I mean most of these american style idioms state winning is everything. That's why a lot of americans cheese and play to win and get angry and nerdrage online. Europeans also have this issue but to a lesser extent, and for the koreans, this is something that rarely happens. Koreans play to become better and it has shown in the way koreans have now become much better at sc2 in 2011 than europeans and american players, whereas in 2010 the field was much more even.
Having more of the prize pool go to americans/europeans would mean it would be easier financially to play sc2 as a career but then they still need to have a 'korean' style attitude to work.
I think the american ladder is definately the weakest 'big' server alongside na/korea/china because a lot of the players just play to win rather than play to improve. I think there are some american players who have a good attitude that means they can improve as a player if, and only IF they move to korea, such as incontrol, idra (i know he went there before), select (he is korean but i'll call him us for simplicity), sheth, slush, moonan and others. But it really depends on them if they want to make the move or not. If you wanna be a progamer, then you gotta go to the mecca of sc2 gaming and that's korea. I believe elky was one of the first foreigners who went to korea to play starcraft professionally and it didn't hurt him since he became a rich poker player. The point is, koreans in general have a much better attitude and that really helps them mentally. I believe the na/eu players are weaker compared to the koreans because of their game knowledge of timings etc is much less complete and because their mentality is weaker also.
I believe that if any na/eu player goes to korea for 6 months to a year, then they will definately become much stronger as a player. Na/eu tournaments need koreans since it helps the eu/na players develop as players which is the next best thing if you can't go to korea to stay and play.
I know a lot of this is off topic but i think most of it relates to the topic at hand.
All I can say, after watching MLG and DH - my hopes for foreigners being competitive against Koreans seems slimmer and slimmer.
Some people just say they wanna see good quality games - but I think the excitement of "who is going to win" is at least as important. Right now, it seems that Koreans always get to the top4, and the foreigners come trailing after. Korean vs foreigner? The Korean will win, but no matter - we'll get a exciting final series, because then it'll only be Koreans left! Too bad even those series are rarely very exciting either.
I don't mind Koreans winning events, its just boring from a spectators point of view when they dominate so hard. Next some will say foreigners just have to get better - well, what if they never do? Should we accept that SC2 is doomed to become another Korean circle-jerk like its predecessor?
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example.
You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate.
The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia.
So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is.
The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care.
The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Actually what the MLS is doing is exactly what the MLG is doing just on a much higher scale.
The MLS is paying foreign players exponentially more money than the average MLS player (154,000avg which is insanely skewed by the few foreign superstars, some NA MLS pros make 42,000k/yr, while Beckham gets 6.2million and those other 6 foreign superstars get 1m+.). Also most of the international superstars don't live in the US, they play in our shitty league for an easy payday and commute between the seasons.
Now tell me how is this any different than Korean superstars coming to American tournaments/leagues for easy pay days that also grow our scene due to the attention and viewers they bring in. What is the fundamental difference? I'd love to hear it..
-they don't live in the US -they are making WAY more money -they are much better than the rest of the leagues players -they are being brought in and paid more to gain attention to the less popular sport
hmmm, seems oddly familar...
-They do live in the US ~If Koreans want to just live here during MLG or w/e season that fine. Not arguing against that at all. Free flights to a tourney every few weeks is another story. -If they make more money that they would in korea, many will move here. fantastic -If they are better cool, if not w/e. they should play for the country of their residence. -Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating american stars will grow the sport long term.
-Many of them don't live in the US, you can say that if you'd like but it holds no merit. Beckham did purchase a home in 2007 in Beverly Hills but spends most of his time back home in England. As of 2011 I'm not even sure if he still owns the Beverly Hills home. This is completely irrelevant anyway, and totally arbitrary.
-So what is going to be your arbitrary timeline for it to be OK for foreigners to come and stay, 3 days tournament not long enough? If they stay in the US for 3 months is that good? 6 months? 21 days? 98 days? Is it OK for Korean teams to send their players every 3 months for 3 days to win MLG? Since you're completely hung up on the physical time they are within the countries borders, what is it going to be for you to think it is OK?
"Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating American stars will grow the sport long term."
You have yet to demonstrate why that would be the case as opposed to myself and others offering real world examples of how sports have grown in the past, or how money actually works. I'd love, fucking LOVE to go watch an MLS game and have someone say "hmm I'm not sure about this, do these players on the field actually LIVE IN THE US? Hmm, I'm not sure if I can support this, I need to know exactly where these players are from and if they are living within the US." Because guess what, that's never fucking happened EVER. People only care about watching good, entertaining soccer games. I've also never read about NA soccer players crying about better foreigners coming into the MLS with 10x their salary.
Let me ask you this would the MLS fail if in the 2012 season if 75% of their players come from clubs in brazil and only reside in the US during the season? (Here a hint: nobody would care if they level of play and entertainment stayed the same or got better.)
We are working with a loose definition of "living here" when it comes to people so rich they can go to Italy for breakfast. However, they do earn their salary here, whereas the Koreans earn theirs in Korea, then come to the US to earn our tourney prizes. These soccer pros are not earning pay in two country's at once (from the sport, excluding side money like doing commercials).
???
Wait, so to appease you, Korea should send over a ringer to join a foreign team to earn foreign money?
On June 20 2011 06:25 Bagi wrote: All I can say, after watching MLG and DH - my hopes for foreigners being competitive against Koreans seems slimmer and slimmer.
Some people just say they wanna see good quality games - but I think the excitement of "who is going to win" is at least as important. Right now, it seems that Koreans always get to the top4, and the foreigners come trailing after. Korean vs foreigner? The Korean will win, but no matter - we'll get a exciting final series, because then it'll only be Koreans left! Too bad even those series are rarely very exciting either.
I don't mind Koreans winning events, its just boring from a spectators point of view when they dominate so hard. Next some will say foreigners just have to get better - well, what if they never do? Should we accept that SC2 is doomed to become another Korean circle-jerk like its predecessor?
Losira vs MMA was damn entertaining. Losira vs MC was damn entertaining as well. I don't understand how they could be considered "not exciting".
i guess the notion that foreigners can compete with koreans is now pretty much dead. i don't see why people think the gap will ever close, koreans are just way more dedicated to the game then foreigners. there's no way that the foreign scene will catch up with the current esports infrastructure. oh well i guess sc2 is becoming another brood war where koreans are the kings of the game, kinda makes me lose interest in the game tbh
On June 20 2011 06:25 Bagi wrote: All I can say, after watching MLG and DH - my hopes for foreigners being competitive against Koreans seems slimmer and slimmer.
Some people just say they wanna see good quality games - but I think the excitement of "who is going to win" is at least as important. Right now, it seems that Koreans always get to the top4, and the foreigners come trailing after. Korean vs foreigner? The Korean will win, but no matter - we'll get a exciting final series, because then it'll only be Koreans left! Too bad even those series are rarely very exciting either.
I don't mind Koreans winning events, its just boring from a spectators point of view when they dominate so hard. Next some will say foreigners just have to get better - well, what if they never do? Should we accept that SC2 is doomed to become another Korean circle-jerk like its predecessor?
Except most of the koreans haven't dominated so hard. In fact the games have been intense for the most part. MLG? MMA was basically dead and gone vs show but pulled a great comeback. Idra beating MC first day. Thorzain going 4-3(I think) vs MC etc. etc. Currently at Dreamhack similar situations have happened as well. People just don't care about the games, they only care about the drama and who comes out on top. If they actually watched properly they would see how freaking close half these games have been.
When 2 super high level players meet and one plays flawlessly while the other makes a mistake it often looks like a steamrolling but in fact the game was super close. I think people are just racist and don't like to admit it. Rather funny for me when racism is something that was so big so recently in my country. It's kinda obvious that's what's happening.
Losira vs MMA was damn entertaining. Losira vs MC was damn entertaining as well. I don't understand how they could be considered "not exciting".
Losira vs MC was exciting, yes. Losira vs MMA, kinda one-sided and quick.
Thing is, for those 2 series we got a TON of series with Koreans taking out foreigners in one-sided games. Is the trade-off really worth it?
Seems my above paragraph was more suited for this reply but same notion applies here. Some games are one sided, same as any tournament but so many aren't.
How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
Calling it racism is a pretty non-related argument tbh. I just want an exciting tournament from a spectators POV, but so far they don't seem to deliver.
On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote: How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
Calling it racism is a pretty non-related argument tbh. I just want an exciting tournament from a spectators POV, but so far they don't seem to deliver.
Im quite sure the vast majority of the people do find tournaments like mlg, tsl, dreamhack exciting. You are a minority.
Instead of removing the koreans, get your heads down and practice... or else you're not worthy of the title professional gamer.
and how do you think this will work? i guess its safe to assume that 1) you have to make enough money to make a living from your gaming to be a professional gamer and 2) that the korean scene had a headstart skillwise
so what i see happening is that the koreans dominate the events in the EU und US, which means less price money stays with the EU/US scene, which then means fever professional gamers in EU/US, which then means the skillgap between KOR and EU/US increases even further
in the end there will be very very few people who make their living of of gaming in the EU/US because there is no way non-koreans can practice as much without winning any money and further there will be no value in sponsoring EU/US players that cant compete at any event
scene in the US/EU might die and i guess that is what catz was worried about
On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote: How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
Calling it racism is a pretty non-related argument tbh. I just want an exciting tournament from a spectators POV, but so far they don't seem to deliver.
Im quite sure the vast majority of the people do find tournaments like mlg, tsl, dreamhack exciting. You are a minority.
I do find the overall tournament exciting, as well as the foreigner games and such.
I just find that the Koreans take away from the excitement rather than add to it.
Catz wants to be able to be competitive at tournaments. That's all it comes down to. And who can blame him? I would be the same way if I were working my butt off to become among the best players.
On June 20 2011 06:25 Bagi wrote:
I don't mind Koreans winning events, its just boring from a spectators point of view when they dominate so hard. Next some will say foreigners just have to get better - well, what if they never do? Should we accept that SC2 is doomed to become another Korean circle-jerk like its predecessor?
Koreans aren't dominating anywhere near the level that they did/do in BW. And I seriously doubt it will ever be like that, mainly because SC2 is different in that mechanics aren't quite as important.
Plus I think since the foreigner SC2 E-sports community is fairly big, we should see more sponsorship and therefore more player homes. I don't feel as the gap has widened between foreigners and Koreans since the game came out. If anything the gap is narrowing ever so slightly.
On June 20 2011 06:54 namedplayer wrote: one simple question...
what if Ukrainians are so good, what if Swedish are as good as Koreans? you wanna ban them all?
swedish already own NA, so with catz's logic we need to exclude swedes and koreans. great intellectual we have there catz truly amazing
yes that was brought up many times lol totally agreed and the problem here still lays that catz still think he's correct but won't respond to anyones question or at least further argue on his topic
On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote: How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
I say they close because the individual games were close. Sure you can ignore the actual play and just look at the statistics but well that's just silly way to judge things.
So do you guys think competitive = ban the high skilled player ? sigh DH and MLG will be bored without asian just practice and become a pro .. right now i think catz is not a pro (only pro in terms of money pool and not wanna challenge better player ??)
On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote: How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
I say they close because the individual games were close. Sure you can ignore the actual play and just look at the statistics but well that's just silly way to judge things.
Not really, because whether the games are "close" or not is such a relative term.
You say they were close, I say they really weren't, at least not in the scope of a full series - who has actual proof to support his claim?
On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote: How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
I say they close because the individual games were close. Sure you can ignore the actual play and just look at the statistics but well that's just silly way to judge things.
Winning is all that ever matters. Koreans went something like 26-3 at MLG and are currently 23-1 at Dreamhack. Almost all Sc2 games are 'close' until one guy loses, it's how the game works.
On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote: How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
Calling it racism is a pretty non-related argument tbh. I just want an exciting tournament from a spectators POV, but so far they don't seem to deliver.
Im quite sure the vast majority of the people do find tournaments like mlg, tsl, dreamhack exciting. You are a minority.
I do find the overall tournament exciting, as well as the foreigner games and such.
I just find that the Koreans take away from the excitement rather than add to it.
You're in a minority there. Far, far more people watch GSL than watch IGN Pro League (discounting Korean viewers), clearly most people want to see the best players regardless of nationality.
I don't understand why people don't find games featuring koreans exciting. I mean, I get to see the best players performing in mostly nail biting games, I love that!. MC vs losira on MLG was amazing, MMA destroying everyone with his insane multitasking was spectacular.
What foreigners need to do is practice more if they want to be up to korean's standards. Idra himself has been noted to be practicing only 3 hours a day for a while now. How does he expect to defeat MC, who practices like 10+ hours daily, in a starcraft-filled environment with some of the best players in the world, and has to play imporant matches around the world like, everyday?
Of course he'll get crushed. As huk's great performance shows, it's the work ethic which makes koreans so skilled at this game. Foreigners need to adapt or die. Now that they're fully dedicating themselves into it, I expect Nani, T-Zain, Sase, and FXO players to rise above the rest of the foreigners, with korean like training.
I think money right now is an issue, but if events keep bringing koreans in (and thus, the viewer counts: Make no mistake, koreans increase viewer counts), sponsors will make a stronger appearance, and then foreigners will be able to dedicate themselves to training. But it requires a lot of commitment to match koreans, it's sort of a lifestyle, and I'm not sure most foreigners have the mindset required to adopt it.
The day we start barring players from major tournaments due to the sole reason of them being too good is the day I stop watch esports. I can't believe people are actually suggesting this.
On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote: How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
Calling it racism is a pretty non-related argument tbh. I just want an exciting tournament from a spectators POV, but so far they don't seem to deliver.
Im quite sure the vast majority of the people do find tournaments like mlg, tsl, dreamhack exciting. You are a minority.
I do find the overall tournament exciting, as well as the foreigner games and such.
I just find that the Koreans take away from the excitement rather than add to it.
You're in a minority there. Far, far more people watch GSL than watch IGN Pro League (discounting Korean viewers), clearly most people want to see the best players regardless of nationality.
I love watching GSL and Korean vs Korean, because I know they'll be evenly matched and the skill level is extremely high.
I don't particularly enjoy Koreans vs foreigners so far, because I can tell who is going to win 95% of the time before the games even start.
On June 20 2011 07:19 Numy wrote: I see so it's no longer about how close the skill is or the growth. It's just about winning.
Haha, that had me laughing. Seriously, if winning is everything, why don't they cheese every Korean. As far as I know, all foreigners try to play straight up in order to test their skill. And a bit off topic, why is someone like Huk able to keep up with the Koreans? It's not as Koreans as a race are good at starcraft. If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW. And I don't know if everyone thinks that this is beneficial to the "growth of e-sports".... :S
On June 20 2011 07:19 Numy wrote: I see so it's no longer about how close the skill is or the growth. It's just about winning.
Haha, that had me laughing. Seriously, if winning is everything, why don't they cheese every Korean. As far as I know, all foreigners try to play straight up in order to test their skill. And a bit off topic, why is someone like Huk able to keep up with the Koreans? It's not as Koreans as a race are good at starcraft. If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW. And I don't know if everyone thinks that this is beneficial to the "growth of e-sports".... :S
A lot of foreigners probably would cheese Koreans if they thought they had a significantly better chance by cheesing. But judging from the fact that the kr ladder is extremely all-in heavy and korea has produced some of the most brutal all-ins in SC2, i think the Koreans are pretty good at holding cheeses.
On June 20 2011 06:51 Malgrif wrote: i guess the notion that foreigners can compete with koreans is now pretty much dead. i don't see why people think the gap will ever close, koreans are just way more dedicated to the game then foreigners. there's no way that the foreign scene will catch up with the current esports infrastructure. oh well i guess sc2 is becoming another brood war where koreans are the kings of the game, kinda makes me lose interest in the game tbh
So you prefer to watch little league baseball over mlg baseball? The koreans are and always will be the best at this game, big deal. Watch the sport for the sport, and not for the race of the players. You don't see people complaining about the nba being uninteresting because it's dominated by black people do you? If you enjoy watching foreigners play, then watch the foreigners play and cheer for them with all your heart. If you like watching korean play then do the same. In the end just like the game for the game.
On June 20 2011 06:51 Malgrif wrote: i guess the notion that foreigners can compete with koreans is now pretty much dead. i don't see why people think the gap will ever close, koreans are just way more dedicated to the game then foreigners. there's no way that the foreign scene will catch up with the current esports infrastructure. oh well i guess sc2 is becoming another brood war where koreans are the kings of the game, kinda makes me lose interest in the game tbh
That's like saying I won't watch any more football, since Brazilians are SO GODDAMN GOOD at it. Sigh... That's just plain ridiculous. Whenever brazil rolls any world championship not played in europe, I just watch in awe of their marvelous skill. Same thing with koreans in SC2. To be the best, you have to beat the best, there's no way around that.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
On June 20 2011 07:19 Numy wrote: I see so it's no longer about how close the skill is or the growth. It's just about winning.
Haha, that had me laughing. Seriously, if winning is everything, why don't they cheese every Korean. As far as I know, all foreigners try to play straight up in order to test their skill. And a bit off topic, why is someone like Huk able to keep up with the Koreans? It's not as Koreans as a race are good at starcraft. If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW. And I don't know if everyone thinks that this is beneficial to the "growth of e-sports".... :S
Cheesing is not neccessarily the best way to win and because Korean ladder has some of the most heinous cheese all the time they're pretty used to it. Look at MC, the number of people trying to all in/timing rush him is pretty high and he just holds it time and time again.
Or look at July in the open bracket at MLG where he just got chain 4 gated/10 pooled and crushed everyone. Sjow also tried a cheese against July today and lost as well.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
There's a decently large number of NA/EU gamers who don't need to work a job in order to pay the bills. If they have the dedication they can. Just look at Sase who's been practicing so hard recently and then think most of the Koreans have been doing that for a year and a few years in Brood War.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
Koreans did the same back at the beginning of sc1. So basically you want reward without any sacrifice? If you aren't willing to take the risk, then you aren't deserving of the reward. At the beginning of sc1, before the infrastructure was established, people dropped out of schools and quit their jobs in order to dedicate their lives to starcraft. That commitment is what pushed them to the top. Foreigners seem to only want the easy way out.
Losira vs MMA was damn entertaining. Losira vs MC was damn entertaining as well. I don't understand how they could be considered "not exciting".
Losira vs MC was exciting, yes. Losira vs MMA, kinda one-sided and quick.
Thing is, for those 2 series we got a TON of series with Koreans taking out foreigners in one-sided games. Is the trade-off really worth it?
There have been many, many more games between two non-Koreans that were just as, if not more, one-sided in MLG. IdrA was completely dominating all his opponents, including MC, before he ran into MMA. Should he not have been playing either then? You might as well just say "Just take all top players out and make MLG a tournament for mediocre players fighting out some cringeworthy games".
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
I think most progamers don't have a 9-5 job. If you really have the dedication, it is possible. That's why I have so much respect for players like Naniwa, Thorzain or even the FXO team.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
How did the koreans do this when it all started? Ppl act like its all easy to be a programer in korea but ever thought how much work it required to get there?
On June 20 2011 06:51 Malgrif wrote: i guess the notion that foreigners can compete with koreans is now pretty much dead. i don't see why people think the gap will ever close, koreans are just way more dedicated to the game then foreigners. there's no way that the foreign scene will catch up with the current esports infrastructure. oh well i guess sc2 is becoming another brood war where koreans are the kings of the game, kinda makes me lose interest in the game tbh
So you prefer to watch little league baseball over mlg baseball? The koreans are and always will be the best at this game, big deal. Watch the sport for the sport, and not for the race of the players. You don't see people complaining about the nba being uninteresting because it's dominated by black people do you? If you enjoy watching foreigners play, then watch the foreigners play and cheer for them with all your heart. If you like watching korean play then do the same. In the end just like the game for the game.
if i wanted to watch the best i'd watch GSL, but since i don't speak korean i don't really feel connected to any of the players as i can't read their interviews or see their involvement or influence in their community. there's nothing emotionally enticing about watching the korean scene for me, i don't play the game and i'm probably the embodiment of a casual in sc2, so being part of the community is very important for me to derive enjoyment out of watching the game. To that end if foreigners have no chance against the koreans then watching the games become less and less interesting because there is no sense of community when "skilled korean player x" outclasses "skilled foreign player y". Think about TSL3 Thorzain vs Naniwa, that produced some major discussion and drama ("CHILL GET OUT" lol). now think about the recent MLG MMA vs Losira, MMA won and that was that. i don't think banning the koreans is right in terms of competitive play, but if the koreans keep on winning the prize money in foreign tournaments then the foreign scene will obviously begin to become discouraged and die out and if that happens then i have no more interest in watching sc2
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
Koreans did the same back at the beginning of sc1. So basically you want reward without any sacrifice? If you aren't willing to take the risk, then you aren't deserving of the reward. At the beginning of sc1, before the infrastructure was established, people dropped out of schools and quit their jobs in order to dedicate their lives to starcraft. That commitment is what pushed them to the top. Foreigners seem to only want the easy way out.
if everyone startet at zero, just like back at the beginning of sc1, then yeah, its true. but tell me, do you think there is a chance a dedicated EU/NA player can make up the 4, 5, maybe 6 years of expierience that the best koreans have in a decent amount of time? there may be 1 or 2 player a year with so much raw talent that they can pull it off in maybe 6 month, but you cannot call 2 player a sc2 scene.
and you can only practice so much if you have to spend half of your playingtime grinding all the daily cups with mediocre competition just to make a living when all the big events are practically unwinable atm
On June 20 2011 08:08 gosu86 wrote: I find it funny that everyone in this thread is saying oh yea but in na or whatever we got to work 9-5 and how are you suppose to practice? lol
the argument is so flawed because you can apply the same concept to the koreans
what ya got to say now
code s koreans live in a house dedicated to sc2, all their living expenses are taken care of and their only real responsibility is to play sc2. top foreigners don't have that.
Every country/region should have a EPS with professional players and teams. But we need the big tournaments to, like Dreamhack/MLG/NASL/IEM. And for those, everyone are welcome, just like the foreigners are welcome to the GSL and to the teamhouses/GOM foreigner house to train and compete but the problem is, like stated in various shows and discussions that Code A don't give enough money for the foreign players. What we need are both more players competing in Korea and better team houses in the west. The foreign scene has gone a long way but if you don't put in the time other players (Koreans, Huk, Jinro) do, you can't expect to compete. The chance to train that hard is out there for many foreigners but they rather take the easy money and the easy route in the west, I'm glad the Koreans come over and compete for our prize pools.
On a sidenote, the NASL shouldn't be played online, it should be like the GSL, I guess that's what CatZ is saying and who can really argue with that? It would have been amazing but you gotta start somewhere right? And the big names like Nada, MC, July and Boxer gives so much more revenue than only NA/EU players, hopefully leading to something more, something worthy of the western scene?
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
Koreans did the same back at the beginning of sc1. So basically you want reward without any sacrifice? If you aren't willing to take the risk, then you aren't deserving of the reward. At the beginning of sc1, before the infrastructure was established, people dropped out of schools and quit their jobs in order to dedicate their lives to starcraft. That commitment is what pushed them to the top. Foreigners seem to only want the easy way out.
if everyone startet at zero, just like back at the beginning of sc1, then yeah, its true. but tell me, do you think there is a chance a dedicated EU/NA player can make up the 4, 5, maybe 6 years of expierience that the best koreans have in a decent amount of time? there may be 1 or 2 player a year with so much raw talent that they can pull it off in maybe 6 month, but you cannot call 2 player a sc2 scene.
and you can only practice so much if you have to spend half of your playingtime grinding all the daily cups with mediocre competition just to make a living when all the big events are practically unwinable atm
Then the foreigner scene will never catch up. Not that I didn't already know that. I personally have no problem with a segregated scene like in sc1 since I watch the game for the game. But others will not feel the same way I do.
On June 20 2011 08:08 gosu86 wrote: I find it funny that everyone in this thread is saying oh yea but in na or whatever we got to work 9-5 and how are you suppose to practice? lol
the argument is so flawed because you can apply the same concept to the koreans
what ya got to say now
code s koreans live in a house dedicated to sc2, all their living expenses are taken care of and their only real responsibility is to play sc2. top foreigners don't have that.
FXO / Root (before they left) / EG / Swedish House have something to say about that.
Tim Thomas is way too good to be playing in the NHL and is clearly OP, he should not have been allowed to play in the SCF
Dirk Nowitzki is way to tall and is completely OP, who can block his shots.. way too good for the NBA he shouldn't be allowed to play in the NBA finals
A true sports/e-sports fan shouldn't care about who's playing or what country they are from. We wanna see awesome games played by the best of the best
On June 20 2011 08:20 Powerforged2 wrote: Tim Thomas is way too good to be playing in the NHL and is clearly OP, he should not have been allowed to play in the SCF
Dirk Nowitzki is way to tall and is completely OP, who can block his shots.. way too good for the NBA he shouldn't be allowed to play in the NBA finals
A true sports/e-sports fan shouldn't care about who's playing or what country they are from. We wanna see awesome games played by the best of the best
That pretty much sums it up :p you can't ban players cause they are too good.
I understand that they don't go to Korea for GSL, but seriously, banning Korean for league???? Why don't they just stop playing sc2 and get an actual job, these kids are the ones who ruin the esports
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
What are you talking about, every single foreigner invited this DH plays SC2 fulltime already afaik. Stop making excuses.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
Destiny makes 4k USD per month just from streaming SC2 on JTV. He quit his day job to be a pro gamer. Also, most foreigner has a salary and expense paid to travel around the world for tournaments from their teams.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
How many top non-Korean progamers have 9-5 jobs?
Bomber goes to school full time and he appears to be shitting on everyone everwhere. He's an art student which technically doesn't really count, but still... it's some responsability.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
How many top non-Korean progamers have 9-5 jobs?
Bomber goes to school full time and he appears to be shitting on everyone everwhere. He's an art student which technically doesn't really count, but still... it's some responsability.
On June 20 2011 08:12 pAzand wrote: Every country/region should have a EPS with professional players and teams. But we need the big tournaments to, like Dreamhack/MLG/NASL/IEM. And for those, everyone are welcome, just like the foreigners are welcome to the GSL and to the teamhouses/GOM foreigner house to train and compete but the problem is, like stated in various shows and discussions that Code A don't give enough money for the foreign players. What we need are both more players competing in Korea and better team houses in the west. The foreign scene has gone a long way but if you don't put in the time other players (Koreans, Huk, Jinro) do, you can't expect to compete. The chance to train that hard is out there for many foreigners but they rather take the easy money and the easy route in the west, I'm glad the Koreans come over and compete for our prize pools.
On a sidenote, the NASL shouldn't be played online, it should be like the GSL, I guess that's what CatZ is saying and who can really argue with that? It would have been amazing but you gotta start somewhere right? And the big names like Nada, MC, July and Boxer gives so much more revenue than only NA/EU players, hopefully leading to something more, something worthy of the western scene?
Korea is the only country where you can have an offline tournament taking place all month every month. None of those other countrys have enough good players to make it financially viable.
If the NASL were offline then A) the standard of play would be pretty poor and most people wouldn't watch or would watch it a lot less and B) The country is far too big, it would require the entire NA scene to relocate to California or whichever city they chose to host it in, which is again unrealistic.
Even if there were a European equivalent, the Germans, Eastern Europeans, French etc.. can't/won't just relocate to Sweden at the drop of a hat.
Korea is a smallish country with a massive player base which makes a continuous LAN tournament viable.
every single foreigner invited this DH plays SC2 fulltime already afaik.
foreigner = everyone not from korea? cause i was referring to foreigners as gamers not from the korean scene. and i highly doubt that all those invited to dreamhack play SC2 fulltime...
just look at their winnings for the year up to the 1st of june
every single foreigner invited this DH plays SC2 fulltime already afaik.
foreigner = everyone not from korea? cause i was referring to foreigners as gamers not from the korean scene. and i highly doubt that all those invited to dreamhack play SC2 fulltime...
just look at their winnings for the year up to the 1st of june
Streaming, coaching, sponsors, teams. Not that guys like that are living as Kings (some might have jobs) but prize money isn't something any players rely on to pay bills.
Starcraft 2 is a solo game, like tennis, golf or boxing. Comparing Starcraft 2 to team sports like football or basketball is a flawed comparison. One thing you'll notice with individual sports is that the competitors compete worldwide, not just nationally.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
How many top non-Korean progamers have 9-5 jobs?
Bomber goes to school full time and he appears to be shitting on everyone everwhere. He's an art student which technically doesn't really count, but still... it's some responsability.
Yeah, Nada has been (or at least had been until recently) a full time college student while producing consistently good results in GSL as well. It's not that all foreigners are busy with their 9-5 jobs, many of them just don't seem to be willing to put in the amount of practice time players living in Korea are committing every day.
On June 20 2011 09:25 Gamegene wrote: Honestly I have to ask who watches the craftcup or the iccup or the other smaller tournaments on a regular basis; that's right. No one.
On June 20 2011 08:12 pAzand wrote: Every country/region should have a EPS with professional players and teams. But we need the big tournaments to, like Dreamhack/MLG/NASL/IEM. And for those, everyone are welcome, just like the foreigners are welcome to the GSL and to the teamhouses/GOM foreigner house to train and compete but the problem is, like stated in various shows and discussions that Code A don't give enough money for the foreign players. What we need are both more players competing in Korea and better team houses in the west. The foreign scene has gone a long way but if you don't put in the time other players (Koreans, Huk, Jinro) do, you can't expect to compete. The chance to train that hard is out there for many foreigners but they rather take the easy money and the easy route in the west, I'm glad the Koreans come over and compete for our prize pools.
On a sidenote, the NASL shouldn't be played online, it should be like the GSL, I guess that's what CatZ is saying and who can really argue with that? It would have been amazing but you gotta start somewhere right? And the big names like Nada, MC, July and Boxer gives so much more revenue than only NA/EU players, hopefully leading to something more, something worthy of the western scene?
Korea is the only country where you can have an offline tournament taking place all month every month. None of those other countrys have enough good players to make it financially viable.
If the NASL were offline then A) the standard of play would be pretty poor and most people wouldn't watch or would watch it a lot less and B) The country is far too big, it would require the entire NA scene to relocate to California or whichever city they chose to host it in, which is again unrealistic.
Even if there were a European equivalent, the Germans, Eastern Europeans, French etc.. can't/won't just relocate to Sweden at the drop of a hat.
Korea is a smallish country with a massive player base which makes a continuous LAN tournament viable.
It think it's a bit of a self-centered argument, honestly.
Picture what's happening right now from Korea's perspective. Foreigners are saying they wouldn't take the Code A spot if they placed in MLG, but they might consider the Code S spot. GSL can't even pay Foreigners to come to their tournament, despite having a legitimate claim to the highest concentration of skill in the world. On top of that, people start asking Koreans to earn their place in foreign tournaments rather than being granted a spot based on their performance in a tournament no foreigner can see themselves winning.
Korea is facing a crisis right now: If the GSL can't attract foreigners and all the top tier Koreans continue seeing success in foreign tournaments, the GSL is going to start losing its legitimacy. That's good news for MLG, NASL, IPL etc. because they're the ones that benefit from having the best players in the world at their tournament. But what happens if the GSL is no longer hosting the top Koreans? It becomes a National league whose sole purpose is to showcase mid-tier Koreans who can't cut it in MLG with the top tier Koreans and Foreigners.
On June 20 2011 08:12 pAzand wrote: Every country/region should have a EPS with professional players and teams. But we need the big tournaments to, like Dreamhack/MLG/NASL/IEM. And for those, everyone are welcome, just like the foreigners are welcome to the GSL and to the teamhouses/GOM foreigner house to train and compete but the problem is, like stated in various shows and discussions that Code A don't give enough money for the foreign players. What we need are both more players competing in Korea and better team houses in the west. The foreign scene has gone a long way but if you don't put in the time other players (Koreans, Huk, Jinro) do, you can't expect to compete. The chance to train that hard is out there for many foreigners but they rather take the easy money and the easy route in the west, I'm glad the Koreans come over and compete for our prize pools.
On a sidenote, the NASL shouldn't be played online, it should be like the GSL, I guess that's what CatZ is saying and who can really argue with that? It would have been amazing but you gotta start somewhere right? And the big names like Nada, MC, July and Boxer gives so much more revenue than only NA/EU players, hopefully leading to something more, something worthy of the western scene?
Korea is the only country where you can have an offline tournament taking place all month every month. None of those other countrys have enough good players to make it financially viable.
If the NASL were offline then A) the standard of play would be pretty poor and most people wouldn't watch or would watch it a lot less and B) The country is far too big, it would require the entire NA scene to relocate to California or whichever city they chose to host it in, which is again unrealistic.
Even if there were a European equivalent, the Germans, Eastern Europeans, French etc.. can't/won't just relocate to Sweden at the drop of a hat.
Korea is a smallish country with a massive player base which makes a continuous LAN tournament viable.
It think it's a bit of a self-centered argument, honestly.
Picture what's happening right now from Korea's perspective. Foreigners are saying they wouldn't take the Code A spot if they placed in MLG, but they might consider the Code S spot. GSL can't even pay Foreigners to come to their tournament, despite having a legitimate claim to the highest concentration of skill in the world. On top of that, people start asking Koreans to earn their place in foreign tournaments rather than being granted a spot based on their performance in a tournament no foreigner can see themselves winning.
Korea is facing a crisis right now: If the GSL can't attract foreigners and all the top tier Koreans continue seeing success in foreign tournaments, the GSL is going to start losing its legitimacy. That's good news for MLG, NASL, IPL etc. because they're the ones that benefit from having the best players in the world at their tournament. But what happens if the GSL is no longer hosting the top Koreans? It becomes a National league whose sole purpose is to showcase mid-tier Koreans who can't cut it in MLG with the top tier Koreans and Foreigners.
Except MLG, in every other tournaments, Koreans have to pay for the expense at their own pockets. If one day foreign tournaments attract a lot of Koreans, they will stop going to those because chances that Koreans eliminating each other and all broke are pretty high. GSL will always be the biggest stage, from production, player quality, quantity,.v.v.v. and free.
That being said, after reading the other thread about GSL:WC, I think it might be the next big thing.
I read quite a few of these posts and i'll aim to address some issues
Living in south korea is generally much more expensive than living in usa. I believe the house prices/rent of the average us home is very cheap compared with south korea (london prices = expensive!) which means koreans actually need to earn a lot more just to have the same standard of living. See 4) below for more info.
there are plenty of foreigner game houses, in which the most famous one is the TLO game house with tlo morrow thorzain and others and i believe there was a ROOT gaming house also.
I believe in 'starcraft one' there wasn't much support for gamers but now with na/eu gamers making money from streaming and coaching due to the internet and also from big sponsorship teams (i mean 50k viewers from day9 dreamhack = lotsa advertising revenue) there is much more potential for na/us players to be a progamer full time as long as they cut costs and manage their money...i.e live with their parents etc. You need to make sacrifices to be the best. You don't see the top tennis players like federer and nadal living in mansions when they were young. They were tight with money and they earned their way to the top. Same with the vast majority of sportsmen and women.
Koreans are dedicated because they commit 100%! Some even drop out of school to play starcraft. I believe boxer did this and now he is rich and has a 1 million + fan club. You have to take a risk in life to earn a big reward. Bigger the risk, bigger the reward usually. People seem to have a misguided perception that all korean progamers are raking in the money. The reason why ogs teams play in a team house with many bunk beds to a room is so they can maximize the use of their salaries. You really think koreans like living with 4 people to a room? who does? answer = nobody, but they make sacrifices because they believe they can win. I don't believe many korean sc2 progamers earn a lot of money so they live in team houses to maximize the use of their income. Once na/eu players do that (and they are doing that as we speak), this will be a good environment to improve.
I don't understand the hate on koreans. I believe koreans are the key for sc2 to be a successful esport. sponsors in na/eu are now working on team houses and following in the korean footsteps to minimize costs and to provide a gaming environment for their players. Sure, koreans are dominating games at the moment, but i have seen all the mlg and dreamhack games and the na/foreigners definately are putting up a fight. Sure the koreans might win eventually but a lot of the games are 2-1, so they aren't one sided.
Also, look at huk as a shining example. Even the koreans said that huk is more dedicated that koreans at sc2 and it shows. He is doing awesome at dreamhack atm and playing really well. It just goes to show that with some dedication to the game, you can achieve a great deal.
like i stated before. The issue with na/eu players is not an issue of race or potential. The na/eu players definately have the potential, including catz, but you need to have the right work ethics and mentality. huk has the right work ethics and he seems to be getting the right mentality now, so keep an eye on him and on naniwa and thorzain and fxo since they are going to korea.
Point is, the future is bright for the foreigners and the koreans. Please don't hate on koreans when they give us so much joy watching them play. Everybody knows that nobody would wanna watch nasl if they give slots to players like gretorp or machine (no insult to them but they aren't in form atm) compared with koreans.
we need koreans and foreigners na/eu players aren't far behind! Sometimes you need to take a beating to learn and become stronger.
It think it's a bit of a self-centered argument, honestly.
Picture what's happening right now from Korea's perspective. Foreigners are saying they wouldn't take the Code A spot if they placed in MLG, but they might consider the Code S spot. GSL can't even pay Foreigners to come to their tournament, despite having a legitimate claim to the highest concentration of skill in the world. On top of that, people start asking Koreans to earn their place in foreign tournaments rather than being granted a spot based on their performance in a tournament no foreigner can see themselves winning.
Korea is facing a crisis right now: If the GSL can't attract foreigners and all the top tier Koreans continue seeing success in foreign tournaments, the GSL is going to start losing its legitimacy. That's good news for MLG, NASL, IPL etc. because they're the ones that benefit from having the best players in the world at their tournament. But what happens if the GSL is no longer hosting the top Koreans? It becomes a National league whose sole purpose is to showcase mid-tier Koreans who can't cut it in MLG with the top tier Koreans and Foreigners.
Except MLG, in every other tournaments, Koreans have to pay for the expense at their own pockets. If one day foreign tournaments attract a lot of Koreans, they will stop going to those because chances that Koreans eliminating each other and all broke are pretty high. GSL will always be the biggest stage, from production, player quality, quantity,.v.v.v. and free.
That being said, after reading the other thread about GSL:WC, I think it might be the next big thing.
How do you figure? If foreign tournaments attract a lot of Koreans, maybe those who don't consider themselves top tier won't come out, but it's not like MLG is the only event attended by Koreans right now. MC won Dreamhack; if the prize pools in foreign tournaments keep expanding then they'll be even more contested.
And with GSL adapting their schedule to include breaks for these events, there's all the more opportunity. But that's not going to attract any more foreigners to GSL. It is the best they can do to ensure top Korean talent keeps coming to GSL, but that still means it can't claim to be showcasing the best in the world.
The GSL needs to do something to attract top tier foreign pros. If GSL:WC does it, then all the better. But I see it as a bit of an admission that the future center for SC2 is going to be outside Korea.
There ARE already small little tourneys cropping up all over the place. You just have to keep an eye on the SC2 Tourneys thread, open it up, and see for yourself that there really are events that appear.
The unspoken story that Catz is not covering, is for every 1 Korean progamer who "makes it", how many thousands of other no-name gamers, who don't. It just seems like he wants a reality where anyone who wants to become a pro-gamer, can just go ahead and ditch their life and suddenly rake in the dough. In fact this is like anything else, the barrier to entry is incredibly high.
The reality is this. There are going to be people with day jobs - who need to keep doing, what they're doing, in order to stay alive and pay the bills, with SC2 being a secondary thing for them.
What you say is correct to an extent. The problem is, it doesn't apply very well to this particular situation and it is misleading because of this. You are using inexact parallels for your examples and your explanation, which don't apply to the actual situation.
Thanks for the writeup, but I don't feel it is very applicable to the situation.
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: r TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
If someone is embarrassed of their career, they're in the wrong career.
It think it's a bit of a self-centered argument, honestly.
Picture what's happening right now from Korea's perspective. Foreigners are saying they wouldn't take the Code A spot if they placed in MLG, but they might consider the Code S spot. GSL can't even pay Foreigners to come to their tournament, despite having a legitimate claim to the highest concentration of skill in the world. On top of that, people start asking Koreans to earn their place in foreign tournaments rather than being granted a spot based on their performance in a tournament no foreigner can see themselves winning.
Korea is facing a crisis right now: If the GSL can't attract foreigners and all the top tier Koreans continue seeing success in foreign tournaments, the GSL is going to start losing its legitimacy. That's good news for MLG, NASL, IPL etc. because they're the ones that benefit from having the best players in the world at their tournament. But what happens if the GSL is no longer hosting the top Koreans? It becomes a National league whose sole purpose is to showcase mid-tier Koreans who can't cut it in MLG with the top tier Koreans and Foreigners.
Except MLG, in every other tournaments, Koreans have to pay for the expense at their own pockets. If one day foreign tournaments attract a lot of Koreans, they will stop going to those because chances that Koreans eliminating each other and all broke are pretty high. GSL will always be the biggest stage, from production, player quality, quantity,.v.v.v. and free.
That being said, after reading the other thread about GSL:WC, I think it might be the next big thing.
How do you figure? If foreign tournaments attract a lot of Koreans, maybe those who don't consider themselves top tier won't come out, but it's not like MLG is the only event attended by Koreans right now. MC won Dreamhack; if the prize pools in foreign tournaments keep expanding then they'll be even more contested.
And with GSL adapting their schedule to include breaks for these events, there's all the more opportunity. But that's not going to attract any more foreigners to GSL. It is the best they can do to ensure top Korean talent keeps coming to GSL, but that still means it can't claim to be showcasing the best in the world.
The GSL needs to do something to attract top tier foreign pros. If GSL:WC does it, then all the better. But I see it as a bit of an admission that the future center for SC2 is going to be outside Korea.
What I meant is: in MLG, MLG has a player exchange program, so they pay expense for the Koreans to come over there. But in all other tournaments, such as Dreamhack, Koreans have to take money out of their own pockets to come to compete. If there're 10 koreans attend in the even, only 4 makes it profitable, the rest wills suffer a lost. No matter how big the prize pool expands, if there're only 3,4 prize for top 3,4, the Koreans can't take a chance in their pocket for long. It was addressed in OMG/SOTG by MLG dude I think.
On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote: r TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
If someone is embarrassed of their career, they're in the wrong career.
Seriously, that's the most self conscious thing I've ever heard. That's more of a reflection of TT1's self confidence issues than any inherent hatred of video games in American/Western culture.
The premise for Catz' argument is not valid. The prize pools for tournaments like MLG and the NASL are peanuts compared to the ad revenue generated. The buzz and excitement caused by famous koreans participating in these leagues creates ad revenue that far outweighs the impact of their taking prizes.
That ad revenue is then invested in growing the local e-sports scene.
A free market fosters growth, protectionism fosters stagnation.
On June 17 2011 18:17 Kickboxer wrote: You can never beat Koreans if you don't compete with them on a regular basis.
That's a fact.
WhiteRa, Dimaga and TT1 did....
You've derailed this thread for your personal emotion for so long. If you were so schooled on their record vs Koreans you probably wouldn't continue to argue the skill level of foreigners vs Koreans. The only one you named to beat a Korean in a best of AT a live event is Dimage at GSL World Championship, which was Nestea. Then he lost immediately and was eliminated. Take your national pride out of it for long enough to realize that currently, Koreans are much better than foreingers.
So um, how's Huk going? Foreigner + teamhouse = competitive More foreigners need to follow suit if they want to keep up.
Not that I think an offline tournament is the only one that matters. Online is as much of a test of skill. You could argue lag, but its not just me that disagrees, Jinro does too
On June 20 2011 08:12 pAzand wrote: Every country/region should have a EPS with professional players and teams. But we need the big tournaments to, like Dreamhack/MLG/NASL/IEM. And for those, everyone are welcome, just like the foreigners are welcome to the GSL and to the teamhouses/GOM foreigner house to train and compete but the problem is, like stated in various shows and discussions that Code A don't give enough money for the foreign players. What we need are both more players competing in Korea and better team houses in the west. The foreign scene has gone a long way but if you don't put in the time other players (Koreans, Huk, Jinro) do, you can't expect to compete. The chance to train that hard is out there for many foreigners but they rather take the easy money and the easy route in the west, I'm glad the Koreans come over and compete for our prize pools.
On a sidenote, the NASL shouldn't be played online, it should be like the GSL, I guess that's what CatZ is saying and who can really argue with that? It would have been amazing but you gotta start somewhere right? And the big names like Nada, MC, July and Boxer gives so much more revenue than only NA/EU players, hopefully leading to something more, something worthy of the western scene?
Korea is the only country where you can have an offline tournament taking place all month every month. None of those other countrys have enough good players to make it financially viable.
If the NASL were offline then A) the standard of play would be pretty poor and most people wouldn't watch or would watch it a lot less and B) The country is far too big, it would require the entire NA scene to relocate to California or whichever city they chose to host it in, which is again unrealistic.
Even if there were a European equivalent, the Germans, Eastern Europeans, French etc.. can't/won't just relocate to Sweden at the drop of a hat.
Korea is a smallish country with a massive player base which makes a continuous LAN tournament viable.
It think it's a bit of a self-centered argument, honestly.
Picture what's happening right now from Korea's perspective. Foreigners are saying they wouldn't take the Code A spot if they placed in MLG, but they might consider the Code S spot. GSL can't even pay Foreigners to come to their tournament, despite having a legitimate claim to the highest concentration of skill in the world. On top of that, people start asking Koreans to earn their place in foreign tournaments rather than being granted a spot based on their performance in a tournament no foreigner can see themselves winning.
Korea is facing a crisis right now: If the GSL can't attract foreigners and all the top tier Koreans continue seeing success in foreign tournaments, the GSL is going to start losing its legitimacy. That's good news for MLG, NASL, IPL etc. because they're the ones that benefit from having the best players in the world at their tournament. But what happens if the GSL is no longer hosting the top Koreans? It becomes a National league whose sole purpose is to showcase mid-tier Koreans who can't cut it in MLG with the top tier Koreans and Foreigners.
lunchforthesky: Well if we take Dreamhack ( and WCG + others?) they have regional qualifiers around Europe leading up the the main event, don't need to use the exact format as the GSL uses. Then we can have a league of our own (Europe/NA) but we also need these big international events and that's the first step we got to take.
Fugue: Well that's a bit exaggerated, the GSL will be the big thing in the best scene (Korea) for the forseeable future. + Show Spoiler +
With Huk's sucess in Dreamhack more foreigners should realize that a couple of months in Korea really is a investment and a "sacrifice" in their career that's important to make.
On June 20 2011 17:38 cosimorondo wrote: The premise for Catz' argument is not valid. The prize pools for tournaments like MLG and the NASL are peanuts compared to the ad revenue generated. The buzz and excitement caused by famous koreans participating in these leagues creates ad revenue that far outweighs the impact of their taking prizes.
That ad revenue is then invested in growing the local e-sports scene.
A free market fosters growth, protectionism fosters stagnation.
The original poster added his own opinion to what catz had said. Catz at no point in the argument displays that the monetary gain from winning tournaments is what is going to develop foreign e-sports. He specifically mentions ICONS.
Here is what (I believe) catz was saying.
The reason e-sports in Korea are so developed, and are accepted by the culture, is because there are "pop-star" like icons that developed from the e-sports scene, and they're Koreans (not just by ethnicity, but by nationality).
If E-sports in North America was to truely grow to the extent it has in Korea, then it would have to be accepted by the general culture, and not just us "nerds".Our peers, our parents, our officials, would have to begin to recognize the level of skill and professionalism it takes to be a pro gamer; thats not going to happen by pointing at Korea and say "look at them".
An analogy I could think to compare this too, is that we need a "pizza" or a "chimichunga" to help e-sports flourish in the USA. What I mean by this, is how many of your average american citizens are familiar with types or Russian, German, of South African cuisines? How many are familiar with Latin, or Italian meals? Where was the pizza invented? -- America (by an Italian immigrant).
Ultimately, what it comes down to--
We need our own pro-scene to exist, for e-sports to become popular here.
Don't get caught up in the prize money - that's not true motivation.
If you look at any competitive industry the onus is on being the best and playing with the best. Most professional athletes have to invest serious amounts of work and money into their sport, I'm talking at least a decade, just to play for free at the collegiate level. Once they get there, they get pimped out by advertisers, broadcasters, and university's all for the slim hope of being picked to play in the big leagues.
If you want e-sports to thrive here you have to do 1 of 2 things:
1) Be these best in the world 2) Consistently graduate pros that can be considered some of the best in the world
However, you want to cut it up, you need to establish the Korean scene as something that is entertaining for Americans and something that Americans can be good at. Then you dominate it or become a part of it. You rise and fall together. If you try to do something completely isolated, who's going to care? You won't be the best in the world and there's nothing to connect you to the best in the world.
How do you consistently graduate pros that can compete well in Korea? You hire proven Korean coaches and Pros and use them as the lure for people to join a homegrown league/team/ house that will better prepare them for the GSL than any other place can.
On June 20 2011 17:38 cosimorondo wrote: The premise for Catz' argument is not valid. The prize pools for tournaments like MLG and the NASL are peanuts compared to the ad revenue generated. The buzz and excitement caused by famous koreans participating in these leagues creates ad revenue that far outweighs the impact of their taking prizes.
That ad revenue is then invested in growing the local e-sports scene.
A free market fosters growth, protectionism fosters stagnation.
The original poster added his own opinion to what catz had said. Catz at no point in the argument displays that the monetary gain from winning tournaments is what is going to develop foreign e-sports. He specifically mentions ICONS.
Here is what (I believe) catz was saying.
The reason e-sports in Korea are so developed, and are accepted by the culture, is because there are "pop-star" like icons that developed from the e-sports scene, and they're Koreans (not just by ethnicity, but by nationality).
If E-sports in North America was to truely grow to the extent it has in Korea, then it would have to be accepted by the general culture, and not just us "nerds".Our peers, our parents, our officials, would have to begin to recognize the level of skill and professionalism it takes to be a pro gamer; thats not going to happen by pointing at Korea and say "look at them".
An analogy I could think to compare this too, is that we need a "pizza" or a "chimichunga" to help e-sports flourish in the USA. What I mean by this, is how many of your average american citizens are familiar with types or Russian, German, of South African cuisines? How many are familiar with Latin, or Italian meals? Where was the pizza invented? -- America (by an Italian immigrant).
Ultimately, what it comes down to--
We need our own pro-scene to exist, for e-sports to become popular here.
The scene in Korea started small before going big, icons didn't emerge overnight. The scene in the US is focusing on being big instead trying to establish numerous small tournaments. Those small tournaments are important because they help SC creep into the general public as they might notice a local tournament at a game shop or something but be ignorant of teamliquid and major gaming events without someone telling them or being into the scene.
Koreans aren't the problem, the fact that the scene consists of mostly international tournaments which very few players can ever hope to profit from no matter who wins being that only those at the top get anything is the problem. Also people are relying too much on getting the word out via the internet instead of using a combination of techniques to inform people.
So basically CatZ doesn't want Koreans who live in Korea to play in the NA SC2 tournament scene right? Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
It seems like CatZ is looking at this only from a player's point of view, which makes sense since he is a player and a good one at that, but esports isn't all about the players, it's an industry, and like any industry its purpose is to make money for those who invest in it. When an industry grows, you can tweak it to your liking since you'll have a big enough foundation that you can take a few risks without bringing the whole thing down, but getting there without your big names is impossible.
By excluding the players that he wants to exclude you make the competitor's product look so much better it's ridiculous. By excluding these players you're cutting off all the interest that these big names generate. It's crippling your profits from the beginning. Not smart.
I can see where he wants NA esports to go, and that'd be awesome if it got there, but you can't get there by excluding your biggest players simply because of some misconception that this will make the NA esports scene grow, when it's quite obvious that it will in fact hurt it.
How many of you that purchased NASL tickets would have done so if there were no Korean players like Boxer, MC, Nada or JulyZerg participating? How many of you would have just watched the GSL instead?
My point being.. you have to make it grow with what works, then when it's big enough that you can start taking risks by changing things up, that's when you do it. Not when the NA esports scene is still in its infancy.
Edit: Rewatched the interview, and it's hard to get a clear idea of what he's arguing, but it seems like he wants Koreans to have to come to the US to play in the NASL like foreigners have to go to Korea to play in the GSL, meaning change the NASL format to a GSL style offline tournament in the US. It's currently not viable for many reasons which have already been covered. The way NASL is doing things currently is the best way to make a GSL style tournament in the US viable at some point in the future.
It also seems like this is a convenient obstacle since he states his opinion pretty bluntly, "the NASL shouldn't have 10 Koreans in it." Kind of hard to not draw conclusions from that statement.
EPT
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