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On June 20 2011 08:54 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 08:12 pAzand wrote:
Every country/region should have a EPS with professional players and teams. But we need the big tournaments to, like Dreamhack/MLG/NASL/IEM. And for those, everyone are welcome, just like the foreigners are welcome to the GSL and to the teamhouses/GOM foreigner house to train and compete but the problem is, like stated in various shows and discussions that Code A don't give enough money for the foreign players. What we need are both more players competing in Korea and better team houses in the west. The foreign scene has gone a long way but if you don't put in the time other players (Koreans, Huk, Jinro) do, you can't expect to compete. The chance to train that hard is out there for many foreigners but they rather take the easy money and the easy route in the west, I'm glad the Koreans come over and compete for our prize pools.
On a sidenote, the NASL shouldn't be played online, it should be like the GSL, I guess that's what CatZ is saying and who can really argue with that? It would have been amazing but you gotta start somewhere right? And the big names like Nada, MC, July and Boxer gives so much more revenue than only NA/EU players, hopefully leading to something more, something worthy of the western scene? Korea is the only country where you can have an offline tournament taking place all month every month. None of those other countrys have enough good players to make it financially viable. If the NASL were offline then A) the standard of play would be pretty poor and most people wouldn't watch or would watch it a lot less and B) The country is far too big, it would require the entire NA scene to relocate to California or whichever city they chose to host it in, which is again unrealistic. Even if there were a European equivalent, the Germans, Eastern Europeans, French etc.. can't/won't just relocate to Sweden at the drop of a hat. Korea is a smallish country with a massive player base which makes a continuous LAN tournament viable.
It think it's a bit of a self-centered argument, honestly.
Picture what's happening right now from Korea's perspective. Foreigners are saying they wouldn't take the Code A spot if they placed in MLG, but they might consider the Code S spot. GSL can't even pay Foreigners to come to their tournament, despite having a legitimate claim to the highest concentration of skill in the world.
On top of that, people start asking Koreans to earn their place in foreign tournaments rather than being granted a spot based on their performance in a tournament no foreigner can see themselves winning.
Korea is facing a crisis right now: If the GSL can't attract foreigners and all the top tier Koreans continue seeing success in foreign tournaments, the GSL is going to start losing its legitimacy. That's good news for MLG, NASL, IPL etc. because they're the ones that benefit from having the best players in the world at their tournament.
But what happens if the GSL is no longer hosting the top Koreans? It becomes a National league whose sole purpose is to showcase mid-tier Koreans who can't cut it in MLG with the top tier Koreans and Foreigners.
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On June 20 2011 10:13 Fugue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 08:54 lunchforthesky wrote:On June 20 2011 08:12 pAzand wrote:
Every country/region should have a EPS with professional players and teams. But we need the big tournaments to, like Dreamhack/MLG/NASL/IEM. And for those, everyone are welcome, just like the foreigners are welcome to the GSL and to the teamhouses/GOM foreigner house to train and compete but the problem is, like stated in various shows and discussions that Code A don't give enough money for the foreign players. What we need are both more players competing in Korea and better team houses in the west. The foreign scene has gone a long way but if you don't put in the time other players (Koreans, Huk, Jinro) do, you can't expect to compete. The chance to train that hard is out there for many foreigners but they rather take the easy money and the easy route in the west, I'm glad the Koreans come over and compete for our prize pools.
On a sidenote, the NASL shouldn't be played online, it should be like the GSL, I guess that's what CatZ is saying and who can really argue with that? It would have been amazing but you gotta start somewhere right? And the big names like Nada, MC, July and Boxer gives so much more revenue than only NA/EU players, hopefully leading to something more, something worthy of the western scene? Korea is the only country where you can have an offline tournament taking place all month every month. None of those other countrys have enough good players to make it financially viable. If the NASL were offline then A) the standard of play would be pretty poor and most people wouldn't watch or would watch it a lot less and B) The country is far too big, it would require the entire NA scene to relocate to California or whichever city they chose to host it in, which is again unrealistic. Even if there were a European equivalent, the Germans, Eastern Europeans, French etc.. can't/won't just relocate to Sweden at the drop of a hat. Korea is a smallish country with a massive player base which makes a continuous LAN tournament viable. It think it's a bit of a self-centered argument, honestly. Picture what's happening right now from Korea's perspective. Foreigners are saying they wouldn't take the Code A spot if they placed in MLG, but they might consider the Code S spot. GSL can't even pay Foreigners to come to their tournament, despite having a legitimate claim to the highest concentration of skill in the world. On top of that, people start asking Koreans to earn their place in foreign tournaments rather than being granted a spot based on their performance in a tournament no foreigner can see themselves winning. Korea is facing a crisis right now: If the GSL can't attract foreigners and all the top tier Koreans continue seeing success in foreign tournaments, the GSL is going to start losing its legitimacy. That's good news for MLG, NASL, IPL etc. because they're the ones that benefit from having the best players in the world at their tournament. But what happens if the GSL is no longer hosting the top Koreans? It becomes a National league whose sole purpose is to showcase mid-tier Koreans who can't cut it in MLG with the top tier Koreans and Foreigners.
Except MLG, in every other tournaments, Koreans have to pay for the expense at their own pockets. If one day foreign tournaments attract a lot of Koreans, they will stop going to those because chances that Koreans eliminating each other and all broke are pretty high. GSL will always be the biggest stage, from production, player quality, quantity,.v.v.v. and free.
That being said, after reading the other thread about GSL:WC, I think it might be the next big thing.
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Catz is a basement dwelling dweeb absolute trash at sc2 kid gets sent to the dumpster by combatex and hes the epitome of bad. Man up mads
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I read quite a few of these posts and i'll aim to address some issues
Living in south korea is generally much more expensive than living in usa. I believe the house prices/rent of the average us home is very cheap compared with south korea (london prices = expensive!) which means koreans actually need to earn a lot more just to have the same standard of living. See 4) below for more info.
there are plenty of foreigner game houses, in which the most famous one is the TLO game house with tlo morrow thorzain and others and i believe there was a ROOT gaming house also.
I believe in 'starcraft one' there wasn't much support for gamers but now with na/eu gamers making money from streaming and coaching due to the internet and also from big sponsorship teams (i mean 50k viewers from day9 dreamhack = lotsa advertising revenue) there is much more potential for na/us players to be a progamer full time as long as they cut costs and manage their money...i.e live with their parents etc. You need to make sacrifices to be the best. You don't see the top tennis players like federer and nadal living in mansions when they were young. They were tight with money and they earned their way to the top. Same with the vast majority of sportsmen and women.
Koreans are dedicated because they commit 100%! Some even drop out of school to play starcraft. I believe boxer did this and now he is rich and has a 1 million + fan club. You have to take a risk in life to earn a big reward. Bigger the risk, bigger the reward usually. People seem to have a misguided perception that all korean progamers are raking in the money. The reason why ogs teams play in a team house with many bunk beds to a room is so they can maximize the use of their salaries. You really think koreans like living with 4 people to a room? who does? answer = nobody, but they make sacrifices because they believe they can win. I don't believe many korean sc2 progamers earn a lot of money so they live in team houses to maximize the use of their income. Once na/eu players do that (and they are doing that as we speak), this will be a good environment to improve.
I don't understand the hate on koreans. I believe koreans are the key for sc2 to be a successful esport. sponsors in na/eu are now working on team houses and following in the korean footsteps to minimize costs and to provide a gaming environment for their players. Sure, koreans are dominating games at the moment, but i have seen all the mlg and dreamhack games and the na/foreigners definately are putting up a fight. Sure the koreans might win eventually but a lot of the games are 2-1, so they aren't one sided.
Also, look at huk as a shining example. Even the koreans said that huk is more dedicated that koreans at sc2 and it shows. He is doing awesome at dreamhack atm and playing really well. It just goes to show that with some dedication to the game, you can achieve a great deal.
like i stated before. The issue with na/eu players is not an issue of race or potential. The na/eu players definately have the potential, including catz, but you need to have the right work ethics and mentality. huk has the right work ethics and he seems to be getting the right mentality now, so keep an eye on him and on naniwa and thorzain and fxo since they are going to korea.
Point is, the future is bright for the foreigners and the koreans. Please don't hate on koreans when they give us so much joy watching them play. Everybody knows that nobody would wanna watch nasl if they give slots to players like gretorp or machine (no insult to them but they aren't in form atm) compared with koreans.
we need koreans and foreigners na/eu players aren't far behind! Sometimes you need to take a beating to learn and become stronger.
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On June 20 2011 10:20 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 10:13 Fugue wrote:
It think it's a bit of a self-centered argument, honestly.
Picture what's happening right now from Korea's perspective. Foreigners are saying they wouldn't take the Code A spot if they placed in MLG, but they might consider the Code S spot. GSL can't even pay Foreigners to come to their tournament, despite having a legitimate claim to the highest concentration of skill in the world.
On top of that, people start asking Koreans to earn their place in foreign tournaments rather than being granted a spot based on their performance in a tournament no foreigner can see themselves winning.
Korea is facing a crisis right now: If the GSL can't attract foreigners and all the top tier Koreans continue seeing success in foreign tournaments, the GSL is going to start losing its legitimacy. That's good news for MLG, NASL, IPL etc. because they're the ones that benefit from having the best players in the world at their tournament.
But what happens if the GSL is no longer hosting the top Koreans? It becomes a National league whose sole purpose is to showcase mid-tier Koreans who can't cut it in MLG with the top tier Koreans and Foreigners.
Except MLG, in every other tournaments, Koreans have to pay for the expense at their own pockets. If one day foreign tournaments attract a lot of Koreans, they will stop going to those because chances that Koreans eliminating each other and all broke are pretty high. GSL will always be the biggest stage, from production, player quality, quantity,.v.v.v. and free. That being said, after reading the other thread about GSL:WC, I think it might be the next big thing.
How do you figure? If foreign tournaments attract a lot of Koreans, maybe those who don't consider themselves top tier won't come out, but it's not like MLG is the only event attended by Koreans right now. MC won Dreamhack; if the prize pools in foreign tournaments keep expanding then they'll be even more contested.
And with GSL adapting their schedule to include breaks for these events, there's all the more opportunity. But that's not going to attract any more foreigners to GSL. It is the best they can do to ensure top Korean talent keeps coming to GSL, but that still means it can't claim to be showcasing the best in the world.
The GSL needs to do something to attract top tier foreign pros. If GSL:WC does it, then all the better. But I see it as a bit of an admission that the future center for SC2 is going to be outside Korea.
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There ARE already small little tourneys cropping up all over the place. You just have to keep an eye on the SC2 Tourneys thread, open it up, and see for yourself that there really are events that appear.
The unspoken story that Catz is not covering, is for every 1 Korean progamer who "makes it", how many thousands of other no-name gamers, who don't. It just seems like he wants a reality where anyone who wants to become a pro-gamer, can just go ahead and ditch their life and suddenly rake in the dough. In fact this is like anything else, the barrier to entry is incredibly high.
The reality is this. There are going to be people with day jobs - who need to keep doing, what they're doing, in order to stay alive and pay the bills, with SC2 being a secondary thing for them.
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What you say is correct to an extent. The problem is, it doesn't apply very well to this particular situation and it is misleading because of this. You are using inexact parallels for your examples and your explanation, which don't apply to the actual situation.
Thanks for the writeup, but I don't feel it is very applicable to the situation.
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On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:
r TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
If someone is embarrassed of their career, they're in the wrong career.
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On June 20 2011 12:14 Fugue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 10:20 canikizu wrote:On June 20 2011 10:13 Fugue wrote:
It think it's a bit of a self-centered argument, honestly.
Picture what's happening right now from Korea's perspective. Foreigners are saying they wouldn't take the Code A spot if they placed in MLG, but they might consider the Code S spot. GSL can't even pay Foreigners to come to their tournament, despite having a legitimate claim to the highest concentration of skill in the world.
On top of that, people start asking Koreans to earn their place in foreign tournaments rather than being granted a spot based on their performance in a tournament no foreigner can see themselves winning.
Korea is facing a crisis right now: If the GSL can't attract foreigners and all the top tier Koreans continue seeing success in foreign tournaments, the GSL is going to start losing its legitimacy. That's good news for MLG, NASL, IPL etc. because they're the ones that benefit from having the best players in the world at their tournament.
But what happens if the GSL is no longer hosting the top Koreans? It becomes a National league whose sole purpose is to showcase mid-tier Koreans who can't cut it in MLG with the top tier Koreans and Foreigners.
Except MLG, in every other tournaments, Koreans have to pay for the expense at their own pockets. If one day foreign tournaments attract a lot of Koreans, they will stop going to those because chances that Koreans eliminating each other and all broke are pretty high. GSL will always be the biggest stage, from production, player quality, quantity,.v.v.v. and free. That being said, after reading the other thread about GSL:WC, I think it might be the next big thing. How do you figure? If foreign tournaments attract a lot of Koreans, maybe those who don't consider themselves top tier won't come out, but it's not like MLG is the only event attended by Koreans right now. MC won Dreamhack; if the prize pools in foreign tournaments keep expanding then they'll be even more contested. And with GSL adapting their schedule to include breaks for these events, there's all the more opportunity. But that's not going to attract any more foreigners to GSL. It is the best they can do to ensure top Korean talent keeps coming to GSL, but that still means it can't claim to be showcasing the best in the world. The GSL needs to do something to attract top tier foreign pros. If GSL:WC does it, then all the better. But I see it as a bit of an admission that the future center for SC2 is going to be outside Korea.
What I meant is: in MLG, MLG has a player exchange program, so they pay expense for the Koreans to come over there. But in all other tournaments, such as Dreamhack, Koreans have to take money out of their own pockets to come to compete. If there're 10 koreans attend in the even, only 4 makes it profitable, the rest wills suffer a lost. No matter how big the prize pool expands, if there're only 3,4 prize for top 3,4, the Koreans can't take a chance in their pocket for long. It was addressed in OMG/SOTG by MLG dude I think.
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On June 20 2011 13:09 Witten wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:
r TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer".
If someone is embarrassed of their career, they're in the wrong career.
Seriously, that's the most self conscious thing I've ever heard. That's more of a reflection of TT1's self confidence issues than any inherent hatred of video games in American/Western culture.
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The premise for Catz' argument is not valid. The prize pools for tournaments like MLG and the NASL are peanuts compared to the ad revenue generated. The buzz and excitement caused by famous koreans participating in these leagues creates ad revenue that far outweighs the impact of their taking prizes.
That ad revenue is then invested in growing the local e-sports scene.
A free market fosters growth, protectionism fosters stagnation.
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On June 17 2011 18:25 inamorato wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 18:19 drop271 wrote:On June 17 2011 18:17 Kickboxer wrote:
You can never beat Koreans if you don't compete with them on a regular basis.
That's a fact. WhiteRa, Dimaga and TT1 did.... You've derailed this thread for your personal emotion for so long. If you were so schooled on their record vs Koreans you probably wouldn't continue to argue the skill level of foreigners vs Koreans. The only one you named to beat a Korean in a best of AT a live event is Dimage at GSL World Championship, which was Nestea. Then he lost immediately and was eliminated. Take your national pride out of it for long enough to realize that currently, Koreans are much better than foreingers.
Dreamhack spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +So um, how's Huk going?
Foreigner + teamhouse = competitive
More foreigners need to follow suit if they want to keep up.
Not that I think an offline tournament is the only one that matters. Online is as much of a test of skill. You could argue lag, but its not just me that disagrees, Jinro does too
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On June 20 2011 10:13 Fugue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 08:54 lunchforthesky wrote:On June 20 2011 08:12 pAzand wrote:
Every country/region should have a EPS with professional players and teams. But we need the big tournaments to, like Dreamhack/MLG/NASL/IEM. And for those, everyone are welcome, just like the foreigners are welcome to the GSL and to the teamhouses/GOM foreigner house to train and compete but the problem is, like stated in various shows and discussions that Code A don't give enough money for the foreign players. What we need are both more players competing in Korea and better team houses in the west. The foreign scene has gone a long way but if you don't put in the time other players (Koreans, Huk, Jinro) do, you can't expect to compete. The chance to train that hard is out there for many foreigners but they rather take the easy money and the easy route in the west, I'm glad the Koreans come over and compete for our prize pools.
On a sidenote, the NASL shouldn't be played online, it should be like the GSL, I guess that's what CatZ is saying and who can really argue with that? It would have been amazing but you gotta start somewhere right? And the big names like Nada, MC, July and Boxer gives so much more revenue than only NA/EU players, hopefully leading to something more, something worthy of the western scene? Korea is the only country where you can have an offline tournament taking place all month every month. None of those other countrys have enough good players to make it financially viable. If the NASL were offline then A) the standard of play would be pretty poor and most people wouldn't watch or would watch it a lot less and B) The country is far too big, it would require the entire NA scene to relocate to California or whichever city they chose to host it in, which is again unrealistic. Even if there were a European equivalent, the Germans, Eastern Europeans, French etc.. can't/won't just relocate to Sweden at the drop of a hat. Korea is a smallish country with a massive player base which makes a continuous LAN tournament viable. It think it's a bit of a self-centered argument, honestly. Picture what's happening right now from Korea's perspective. Foreigners are saying they wouldn't take the Code A spot if they placed in MLG, but they might consider the Code S spot. GSL can't even pay Foreigners to come to their tournament, despite having a legitimate claim to the highest concentration of skill in the world. On top of that, people start asking Koreans to earn their place in foreign tournaments rather than being granted a spot based on their performance in a tournament no foreigner can see themselves winning. Korea is facing a crisis right now: If the GSL can't attract foreigners and all the top tier Koreans continue seeing success in foreign tournaments, the GSL is going to start losing its legitimacy. That's good news for MLG, NASL, IPL etc. because they're the ones that benefit from having the best players in the world at their tournament. But what happens if the GSL is no longer hosting the top Koreans? It becomes a National league whose sole purpose is to showcase mid-tier Koreans who can't cut it in MLG with the top tier Koreans and Foreigners.
lunchforthesky:
Well if we take Dreamhack ( and WCG + others?) they have regional qualifiers around Europe leading up the the main event, don't need to use the exact format as the GSL uses. Then we can have a league of our own (Europe/NA) but we also need these big international events and that's the first step we got to take.
Fugue:
Well that's a bit exaggerated, the GSL will be the big thing in the best scene (Korea) for the forseeable future. + Show Spoiler +With Huk's sucess in Dreamhack more foreigners should realize that a couple of months in Korea really is a investment and a "sacrifice" in their career that's important to make.
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As i said before in my 2 posts in this forum thread
1) watch out for huk
2) we need koreans and huk showed if u adopt the korean mentality and mindset and work ethics you can persevere!
grats to huk and all of TL!
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On June 20 2011 17:38 cosimorondo wrote:
The premise for Catz' argument is not valid. The prize pools for tournaments like MLG and the NASL are peanuts compared to the ad revenue generated. The buzz and excitement caused by famous koreans participating in these leagues creates ad revenue that far outweighs the impact of their taking prizes.
That ad revenue is then invested in growing the local e-sports scene.
A free market fosters growth, protectionism fosters stagnation.
The original poster added his own opinion to what catz had said. Catz at no point in the argument displays that the monetary gain from winning tournaments is what is going to develop foreign e-sports. He specifically mentions
ICONS.
Here is what (I believe) catz was saying.
The reason e-sports in Korea are so developed, and are accepted by the culture, is because there are "pop-star" like icons that developed from the e-sports scene, and they're Koreans (not just by ethnicity, but by nationality).
If E-sports in North America was to truely grow to the extent it has in Korea, then it would have to be accepted by the general culture, and not just us "nerds".Our peers, our parents, our officials, would have to begin to recognize the level of skill and professionalism it takes to be a pro gamer; thats not going to happen by pointing at Korea and say "look at them".
An analogy I could think to compare this too, is that we need a "pizza" or a "chimichunga" to help e-sports flourish in the USA. What I mean by this, is how many of your average american citizens are familiar with types or Russian, German, of South African cuisines? How many are familiar with Latin, or Italian meals?
Where was the pizza invented? -- America (by an Italian immigrant).
Ultimately, what it comes down to--
We need our own pro-scene to exist, for e-sports to become popular here.
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Don't get caught up in the prize money - that's not true motivation.
If you look at any competitive industry the onus is on being the best and playing with the best. Most professional athletes have to invest serious amounts of work and money into their sport, I'm talking at least a decade, just to play for free at the collegiate level. Once they get there, they get pimped out by advertisers, broadcasters, and university's all for the slim hope of being picked to play in the big leagues.
If you want e-sports to thrive here you have to do 1 of 2 things:
1) Be these best in the world
2) Consistently graduate pros that can be considered some of the best in the world
However, you want to cut it up, you need to establish the Korean scene as something that is entertaining for Americans and something that Americans can be good at. Then you dominate it or become a part of it. You rise and fall together. If you try to do something completely isolated, who's going to care? You won't be the best in the world and there's nothing to connect you to the best in the world.
How do you consistently graduate pros that can compete well in Korea? You hire proven Korean coaches and Pros and use them as the lure for people to join a homegrown league/team/ house that will better prepare them for the GSL than any other place can.
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On June 21 2011 08:32 .Mthex- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 17:38 cosimorondo wrote:
The premise for Catz' argument is not valid. The prize pools for tournaments like MLG and the NASL are peanuts compared to the ad revenue generated. The buzz and excitement caused by famous koreans participating in these leagues creates ad revenue that far outweighs the impact of their taking prizes.
That ad revenue is then invested in growing the local e-sports scene.
A free market fosters growth, protectionism fosters stagnation. The original poster added his own opinion to what catz had said. Catz at no point in the argument displays that the monetary gain from winning tournaments is what is going to develop foreign e-sports. He specifically mentions ICONS. Here is what (I believe) catz was saying. The reason e-sports in Korea are so developed, and are accepted by the culture, is because there are "pop-star" like icons that developed from the e-sports scene, and they're Koreans (not just by ethnicity, but by nationality). If E-sports in North America was to truely grow to the extent it has in Korea, then it would have to be accepted by the general culture, and not just us "nerds".Our peers, our parents, our officials, would have to begin to recognize the level of skill and professionalism it takes to be a pro gamer; thats not going to happen by pointing at Korea and say "look at them". An analogy I could think to compare this too, is that we need a "pizza" or a "chimichunga" to help e-sports flourish in the USA. What I mean by this, is how many of your average american citizens are familiar with types or Russian, German, of South African cuisines? How many are familiar with Latin, or Italian meals? Where was the pizza invented? -- America (by an Italian immigrant). Ultimately, what it comes down to--We need our own pro-scene to exist, for e-sports to become popular here.
The scene in Korea started small before going big, icons didn't emerge overnight. The scene in the US is focusing on being big instead trying to establish numerous small tournaments. Those small tournaments are important because they help SC creep into the general public as they might notice a local tournament at a game shop or something but be ignorant of teamliquid and major gaming events without someone telling them or being into the scene.
Koreans aren't the problem, the fact that the scene consists of mostly international tournaments which very few players can ever hope to profit from no matter who wins being that only those at the top get anything is the problem. Also people are relying too much on getting the word out via the internet instead of using a combination of techniques to inform people.
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Just be like Huk and follow your dream even if it leads you to an uncomfortable life style in Korea. It is reaping the benefits for him right now.
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hate the analogies with real sports...cause you can play soccer online...and basketball...
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EPT
