On June 20 2011 07:19 Numy wrote: I see so it's no longer about how close the skill is or the growth. It's just about winning.
Haha, that had me laughing. Seriously, if winning is everything, why don't they cheese every Korean. As far as I know, all foreigners try to play straight up in order to test their skill. And a bit off topic, why is someone like Huk able to keep up with the Koreans? It's not as Koreans as a race are good at starcraft. If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW. And I don't know if everyone thinks that this is beneficial to the "growth of e-sports".... :S
On June 20 2011 07:19 Numy wrote: I see so it's no longer about how close the skill is or the growth. It's just about winning.
Haha, that had me laughing. Seriously, if winning is everything, why don't they cheese every Korean. As far as I know, all foreigners try to play straight up in order to test their skill. And a bit off topic, why is someone like Huk able to keep up with the Koreans? It's not as Koreans as a race are good at starcraft. If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW. And I don't know if everyone thinks that this is beneficial to the "growth of e-sports".... :S
A lot of foreigners probably would cheese Koreans if they thought they had a significantly better chance by cheesing. But judging from the fact that the kr ladder is extremely all-in heavy and korea has produced some of the most brutal all-ins in SC2, i think the Koreans are pretty good at holding cheeses.
On June 20 2011 06:51 Malgrif wrote: i guess the notion that foreigners can compete with koreans is now pretty much dead. i don't see why people think the gap will ever close, koreans are just way more dedicated to the game then foreigners. there's no way that the foreign scene will catch up with the current esports infrastructure. oh well i guess sc2 is becoming another brood war where koreans are the kings of the game, kinda makes me lose interest in the game tbh
So you prefer to watch little league baseball over mlg baseball? The koreans are and always will be the best at this game, big deal. Watch the sport for the sport, and not for the race of the players. You don't see people complaining about the nba being uninteresting because it's dominated by black people do you? If you enjoy watching foreigners play, then watch the foreigners play and cheer for them with all your heart. If you like watching korean play then do the same. In the end just like the game for the game.
On June 20 2011 06:51 Malgrif wrote: i guess the notion that foreigners can compete with koreans is now pretty much dead. i don't see why people think the gap will ever close, koreans are just way more dedicated to the game then foreigners. there's no way that the foreign scene will catch up with the current esports infrastructure. oh well i guess sc2 is becoming another brood war where koreans are the kings of the game, kinda makes me lose interest in the game tbh
That's like saying I won't watch any more football, since Brazilians are SO GODDAMN GOOD at it. Sigh... That's just plain ridiculous. Whenever brazil rolls any world championship not played in europe, I just watch in awe of their marvelous skill. Same thing with koreans in SC2. To be the best, you have to beat the best, there's no way around that.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
On June 20 2011 07:19 Numy wrote: I see so it's no longer about how close the skill is or the growth. It's just about winning.
Haha, that had me laughing. Seriously, if winning is everything, why don't they cheese every Korean. As far as I know, all foreigners try to play straight up in order to test their skill. And a bit off topic, why is someone like Huk able to keep up with the Koreans? It's not as Koreans as a race are good at starcraft. If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW. And I don't know if everyone thinks that this is beneficial to the "growth of e-sports".... :S
Cheesing is not neccessarily the best way to win and because Korean ladder has some of the most heinous cheese all the time they're pretty used to it. Look at MC, the number of people trying to all in/timing rush him is pretty high and he just holds it time and time again.
Or look at July in the open bracket at MLG where he just got chain 4 gated/10 pooled and crushed everyone. Sjow also tried a cheese against July today and lost as well.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
There's a decently large number of NA/EU gamers who don't need to work a job in order to pay the bills. If they have the dedication they can. Just look at Sase who's been practicing so hard recently and then think most of the Koreans have been doing that for a year and a few years in Brood War.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
Koreans did the same back at the beginning of sc1. So basically you want reward without any sacrifice? If you aren't willing to take the risk, then you aren't deserving of the reward. At the beginning of sc1, before the infrastructure was established, people dropped out of schools and quit their jobs in order to dedicate their lives to starcraft. That commitment is what pushed them to the top. Foreigners seem to only want the easy way out.
Losira vs MMA was damn entertaining. Losira vs MC was damn entertaining as well. I don't understand how they could be considered "not exciting".
Losira vs MC was exciting, yes. Losira vs MMA, kinda one-sided and quick.
Thing is, for those 2 series we got a TON of series with Koreans taking out foreigners in one-sided games. Is the trade-off really worth it?
There have been many, many more games between two non-Koreans that were just as, if not more, one-sided in MLG. IdrA was completely dominating all his opponents, including MC, before he ran into MMA. Should he not have been playing either then? You might as well just say "Just take all top players out and make MLG a tournament for mediocre players fighting out some cringeworthy games".
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
I think most progamers don't have a 9-5 job. If you really have the dedication, it is possible. That's why I have so much respect for players like Naniwa, Thorzain or even the FXO team.
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
How did the koreans do this when it all started? Ppl act like its all easy to be a programer in korea but ever thought how much work it required to get there?
On June 20 2011 06:51 Malgrif wrote: i guess the notion that foreigners can compete with koreans is now pretty much dead. i don't see why people think the gap will ever close, koreans are just way more dedicated to the game then foreigners. there's no way that the foreign scene will catch up with the current esports infrastructure. oh well i guess sc2 is becoming another brood war where koreans are the kings of the game, kinda makes me lose interest in the game tbh
So you prefer to watch little league baseball over mlg baseball? The koreans are and always will be the best at this game, big deal. Watch the sport for the sport, and not for the race of the players. You don't see people complaining about the nba being uninteresting because it's dominated by black people do you? If you enjoy watching foreigners play, then watch the foreigners play and cheer for them with all your heart. If you like watching korean play then do the same. In the end just like the game for the game.
if i wanted to watch the best i'd watch GSL, but since i don't speak korean i don't really feel connected to any of the players as i can't read their interviews or see their involvement or influence in their community. there's nothing emotionally enticing about watching the korean scene for me, i don't play the game and i'm probably the embodiment of a casual in sc2, so being part of the community is very important for me to derive enjoyment out of watching the game. To that end if foreigners have no chance against the koreans then watching the games become less and less interesting because there is no sense of community when "skilled korean player x" outclasses "skilled foreign player y". Think about TSL3 Thorzain vs Naniwa, that produced some major discussion and drama ("CHILL GET OUT" lol). now think about the recent MLG MMA vs Losira, MMA won and that was that. i don't think banning the koreans is right in terms of competitive play, but if the koreans keep on winning the prize money in foreign tournaments then the foreign scene will obviously begin to become discouraged and die out and if that happens then i have no more interest in watching sc2
If the foreigners are unwilling to accept this challenge and adapt to Korean training methods, then we will see the same as in BW.
srsly, how are the foreigners supposed to live and train like koreans when there is no chance at all for them to earn the money needed the live such a life? you just can't squeeze in 10+ hours of training after a 9-5 job. and you can't quit your job because there is just no way to ever be able to catch up with them over a short period of time.
Koreans did the same back at the beginning of sc1. So basically you want reward without any sacrifice? If you aren't willing to take the risk, then you aren't deserving of the reward. At the beginning of sc1, before the infrastructure was established, people dropped out of schools and quit their jobs in order to dedicate their lives to starcraft. That commitment is what pushed them to the top. Foreigners seem to only want the easy way out.
if everyone startet at zero, just like back at the beginning of sc1, then yeah, its true. but tell me, do you think there is a chance a dedicated EU/NA player can make up the 4, 5, maybe 6 years of expierience that the best koreans have in a decent amount of time? there may be 1 or 2 player a year with so much raw talent that they can pull it off in maybe 6 month, but you cannot call 2 player a sc2 scene.
and you can only practice so much if you have to spend half of your playingtime grinding all the daily cups with mediocre competition just to make a living when all the big events are practically unwinable atm
On June 20 2011 08:08 gosu86 wrote: I find it funny that everyone in this thread is saying oh yea but in na or whatever we got to work 9-5 and how are you suppose to practice? lol
the argument is so flawed because you can apply the same concept to the koreans
what ya got to say now
code s koreans live in a house dedicated to sc2, all their living expenses are taken care of and their only real responsibility is to play sc2. top foreigners don't have that.
Every country/region should have a EPS with professional players and teams. But we need the big tournaments to, like Dreamhack/MLG/NASL/IEM. And for those, everyone are welcome, just like the foreigners are welcome to the GSL and to the teamhouses/GOM foreigner house to train and compete but the problem is, like stated in various shows and discussions that Code A don't give enough money for the foreign players. What we need are both more players competing in Korea and better team houses in the west. The foreign scene has gone a long way but if you don't put in the time other players (Koreans, Huk, Jinro) do, you can't expect to compete. The chance to train that hard is out there for many foreigners but they rather take the easy money and the easy route in the west, I'm glad the Koreans come over and compete for our prize pools.
On a sidenote, the NASL shouldn't be played online, it should be like the GSL, I guess that's what CatZ is saying and who can really argue with that? It would have been amazing but you gotta start somewhere right? And the big names like Nada, MC, July and Boxer gives so much more revenue than only NA/EU players, hopefully leading to something more, something worthy of the western scene?
EPT
