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On June 18 2011 17:31 AKA. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 17:27 mcfrog wrote:On June 18 2011 16:56 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry. There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially. Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports. Players that go to Korea and do well gain fame and some amount of fortune which they can use to their advantage once they leave to draw bigger crowds to other tournaments since so many people watch the GSL. If a foreigner won Code S he would be a huge draw for any other tournament he participated in. This is true, however because he is forced to live in korea to compete there, the likelihood of him strengthening our esport is limited, and would be to a much lesser degree than he grows korean esports since he'd really add to foreign subscribers. On the other hand if that player won the major league in the US, then went on to play a global tourney and won that, wow would that have an impact on US esports.
Our esports are weak because esports is still relativity new and our tournaments aren't made to develop players like the Korean ones are, which is why players that go to Korea come back better than they were even if they were only there for a month. Cutting out Koreans from NASL and MLG does nothing to solve that problem it just uses them as scapegoats. Winning a NA only competition right now isn't impressive because the competition is so weak, which is why guys like Naniwa almost ripped everyone to bits at MLG Dallas. I rather have our players go to Korea, get better, and come back to show off their skills than watch weak competition as there needs to be major changes in the NA scene if the players are to ever improve other than cutting all the Koreans out.
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On June 18 2011 17:45 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 17:20 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 17:05 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:56 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry. There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially. Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports. Actually what the MLS is doing is exactly what the MLG is doing just on a much higher scale. The MLS is paying foreign players exponentially more money than the average MLS player (154,000avg which is insanely skewed by the few foreign superstars, some NA MLS pros make 42,000k/yr, while Beckham gets 6.2million and those other 6 foreign superstars get 1m+.). Also most of the international superstars don't live in the US, they play in our shitty league for an easy payday and commute between the seasons. Now tell me how is this any different than Korean superstars coming to American tournaments/leagues for easy pay days that also grow our scene due to the attention and viewers they bring in. What is the fundamental difference? I'd love to hear it.. -they don't live in the US -they are making WAY more money -they are much better than the rest of the leagues players -they are being brought in and paid more to gain attention to the less popular sport hmmm, seems oddly familar... -They do live in the US ~If Koreans want to just live here during MLG or w/e season that fine. Not arguing against that at all. Free flights to a tourney every few weeks is another story. -If they make more money that they would in korea, many will move here. fantastic -If they are better cool, if not w/e. they should play for the country of their residence. -Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating american stars will grow the sport long term. -Many of them don't live in the US, you can say that if you'd like but it holds no merit. Beckham did purchase a home in 2007 in Beverly Hills but spends most of his time back home in England. As of 2011 I'm not even sure if he still owns the Beverly Hills home. This is completely irrelevant anyway, and totally arbitrary. -So what is going to be your arbitrary timeline for it to be OK for foreigners to come and stay, 3 days tournament not long enough? If they stay in the US for 3 months is that good? 6 months? 21 days? 98 days? Is it OK for Korean teams to send their players every 3 months for 3 days to win MLG? Since you're completely hung up on the physical time they are within the countries borders, what is it going to be for you to think it is OK? "Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating American stars will grow the sport long term." You have yet to demonstrate why that would be the case as opposed to myself and others offering real world examples of how sports have grown in the past, or how money actually works. I'd love, fucking LOVE to go watch an MLS game and have someone say "hmm I'm not sure about this, do these players on the field actually LIVE IN THE US? Hmm, I'm not sure if I can support this, I need to know exactly where these players are from and if they are living within the US." Because guess what, that's never fucking happened EVER. People only care about watching good, entertaining soccer games. I've also never read about NA soccer players crying about better foreigners coming into the MLS with 10x their salary. Let me ask you this would the MLS fail if in the 2012 season if 75% of their players come from clubs in brazil and only reside in the US during the season? (Here a hint: nobody would care if they level of play and entertainment stayed the same or got better.)
We are working with a loose definition of "living here" when it comes to people so rich they can go to Italy for breakfast. However, they do earn their salary here, whereas the Koreans earn theirs in Korea, then come to the US to earn our tourney prizes. These soccer pros are not earning pay in two country's at once (from the sport, excluding side money like doing commercials).
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On June 18 2011 17:51 mcfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 17:31 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 17:27 mcfrog wrote:On June 18 2011 16:56 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry. There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially. Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports. Players that go to Korea and do well gain fame and some amount of fortune which they can use to their advantage once they leave to draw bigger crowds to other tournaments since so many people watch the GSL. If a foreigner won Code S he would be a huge draw for any other tournament he participated in. This is true, however because he is forced to live in korea to compete there, the likelihood of him strengthening our esport is limited, and would be to a much lesser degree than he grows korean esports since he'd really add to foreign subscribers. On the other hand if that player won the major league in the US, then went on to play a global tourney and won that, wow would that have an impact on US esports. Our esports are weak because esports is still relativity new and our tournaments aren't made to develop players like the Korean ones are, which is why players that go to Korea come back better than they were even if they were only there for a month. Cutting out Koreans from NASL and MLG does nothing to solve that problem just using them as scapegoats. Winning a NA only competition right now isn't impressive because the competition is so weak, which is why guys like Naniwa almost ripped everyone to bits at MLG Dallas. I rather have our players go to Korea, get better, and come back to show off their skills than watch weak competition as there needs to be major changes in the NA scene if the players are to ever improve other than cutting all the Koreans out.
I actually argued in favor of people going to korea, because they actually are forced to live their and commit to the GSL.
People are making the same arguments i responded to 5 pages past and have been takeing recent posts out of the context I set up for them. Since no one can be bothered to actually read the thread before posting, and I'm far to lazy to reiterate it all, I'm stopping until I see a post of sustenance.
Plus at one point during this I had a pro gamer thank me, which kinda made it all worth it already 
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On June 18 2011 17:50 oxxo wrote:
Olympic basketball and NBA are very different games. The rules and reffing are completely different. The fact that the US can win while playing a different game every year just shows how inferior other countries are to us. There's also the fact that there's many NBA players on the other teams.
You can't use the argument both ways, if foreign players are playing in the NBA then the different rule set is a disadvantage to them as well.
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On June 18 2011 17:56 AKA. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 17:51 mcfrog wrote:On June 18 2011 17:31 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 17:27 mcfrog wrote:On June 18 2011 16:56 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry. There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially. Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports. Players that go to Korea and do well gain fame and some amount of fortune which they can use to their advantage once they leave to draw bigger crowds to other tournaments since so many people watch the GSL. If a foreigner won Code S he would be a huge draw for any other tournament he participated in. This is true, however because he is forced to live in korea to compete there, the likelihood of him strengthening our esport is limited, and would be to a much lesser degree than he grows korean esports since he'd really add to foreign subscribers. On the other hand if that player won the major league in the US, then went on to play a global tourney and won that, wow would that have an impact on US esports. Our esports are weak because esports is still relativity new and our tournaments aren't made to develop players like the Korean ones are, which is why players that go to Korea come back better than they were even if they were only there for a month. Cutting out Koreans from NASL and MLG does nothing to solve that problem just using them as scapegoats. Winning a NA only competition right now isn't impressive because the competition is so weak, which is why guys like Naniwa almost ripped everyone to bits at MLG Dallas. I rather have our players go to Korea, get better, and come back to show off their skills than watch weak competition as there needs to be major changes in the NA scene if the players are to ever improve other than cutting all the Koreans out. I actually argued in favor of people going to korea, because they actually are forced to live their and commit to the GSL. People are making the same arguments i responded to 5 pages past and have been takeing recent posts out of the context I set up for them. Since no one can be bothered to actually read the thread before posting, and I'm far to lazy to reiterate it all, I'm stopping until I see a post of sustenance. Plus at one point during this I had a pro gamer thank me, which kinda made it all worth it already
Honestly I don't completely agree with how the Korean system is set up and don't think we should try to emulate it exactly. We should take advantage of the internet to reduce cost for organizers and players.
People are focusing too much on MLG/NASL. In Europe they have multiple small and mid level tournaments that provide enough for players like White Ra but aren't big enough to attract outside attention which is why Koreans don't come over so there is no reason to ban them from entering.
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On June 17 2011 11:55 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 11:51 Datum wrote:
The problem with this is that the comparison between progamers and countries is silly. While his argument may be financially motivated, it isn't economically motivated. It has nothing to do with trade or commerce. Prize money doesn't benefit national esporta scenes nearly as much as it does progamers.
I'm not disagreeing with the argument (or agreeing with it), I'm simply disagreeing with your analysis of it. Yes, that is correct. The argument misconceives the economics of this whole thing. Esports is a global phenomena and nationhood is largely irrelevant. Another thing: people don't care about the nationality of players as much as some people think.
Actually the nationality point is arguable. I will use China as an example: almost nobody was interested in basketball until Yao Ming is famous. No one was interested in tennis until Li Na shocked everyone. (by no one, I mean no chinese)
but I agree with not comparing progaming and national economy, it is just way too small to be much of contribution.
But the protectionism and open market operation argument still stands.
I personally thinks that protectionism is the way to go, the amount of protection is what should be the main point of argument.
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On June 18 2011 19:28 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 11:55 AndAgain wrote:On June 17 2011 11:51 Datum wrote:
The problem with this is that the comparison between progamers and countries is silly. While his argument may be financially motivated, it isn't economically motivated. It has nothing to do with trade or commerce. Prize money doesn't benefit national esporta scenes nearly as much as it does progamers.
I'm not disagreeing with the argument (or agreeing with it), I'm simply disagreeing with your analysis of it. Yes, that is correct. The argument misconceives the economics of this whole thing. Esports is a global phenomena and nationhood is largely irrelevant. Another thing: people don't care about the nationality of players as much as some people think. Actually the nationality point is arguable. I will use China as an example: almost nobody was interested in basketball until Yao Ming is famous. No one was interested in tennis until Li Na shocked everyone. (by no one, I mean no chinese) but I agree with not comparing progaming and national economy, it is just way too small to be much of contribution. But the protectionism and open market operation argument still stands. I personally thinks that protectionism is the way to go, the amount of protection is what should be the main point of argument.
Actually you're confusing cause and effect. Basketball grew popular in China, which caused more interest amongst Chinese youth to play basketball, which led to the CBA and cultivating players like Yao Ming.
The CBA started in 1995, Yao Ming was born in 1980, so he was 15 at the time the CBA was started.
Either way, the ironic part of your analogy is that it works against Catz' argument, considering there's quite a lot of black players in the CBA. I presume most are from the US, so if CBA is analogous to NASL and NBA is GSL, then clearly the lack of a non-Chinese player ban has not killed the basketball scene in China, seeing as how popular basketball is in China and players like Yao Ming gaining attention he otherwise would not.
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On June 18 2011 17:56 blah_blah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 17:50 oxxo wrote:
Olympic basketball and NBA are very different games. The rules and reffing are completely different. The fact that the US can win while playing a different game every year just shows how inferior other countries are to us. There's also the fact that there's many NBA players on the other teams. You can't use the argument both ways, if foreign players are playing in the NBA then the different rule set is a disadvantage to them as well.
lol caught. Buy anyways, I can understand both sides of the argument here. For example, you could consider Korean's coming to American tourneys as being the same as NBA players deciding to play for a second team in a less prestigious league.
I find it difficult to see if this were to happen, would that inject growth into the lower league or would the probable dominance of the NBA players eventually wash out all the non NBA ones?
However, one thing is pretty certain, if the Western tourneys want more prestige than being second level, then they are gonna have to invite the best players.
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People have limited time.
Do people want a large spread(and by large spread I mean x10 more than you can actually watch) of mediocre television shows or a sizable number of impressive television shows?
Sure, you can grow the overseas Esports scene. You can split the ten best players into ten leagues but who would watch all of them? Do you want to see the the ten best players playing against each other in the same league or do you want to see the ten best players playing against no-names? Do you want to see top players playing against each other or do you want to separate them so that we can see no-names play? Do you want even better matches from the best players or more matches by mediocre players?
Speaking in economic terms, it is better to invest in a country that has a comparative advantage. Korea has the comparative advantage now.
There are players who are studying part-time in the Code S and Code A league. If the money from gaming was enough such that they could give up studying you can see even better matches from them. Imagine if Code A and Code S had 64 players each and if every Code A match was like a current Code S match and every Code S match was like a GSTL final.
Would you rather have less competitions but better players or would you rather have more competitions and more no-names?
The opportunity cost of preventing top Korean players(and by top Korean players I mean all GSL players) who are now competing in overseas tournaments from future overseas tournaments means that they will have lesser incentive to play. Imagine if the future Code S matches are the standard of today's Code A. Do you really want it? Would people want to watch it? Also, with a smaller concentration of viewers in the GSL, GSL ticket prices would also rise and the player base will contract.
Imo, money should be invested in Korean players(to be more precise Korean standard players, which includes foreign players who play at that level). Korean standard foreign players would have no problem having Koreans in any competition they play since they are equal with them. There is not much value in over-expansion such that we gain more good players at the expense of the best players.
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On June 18 2011 14:34 NineteenSC2 wrote:
The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game.
Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone:
There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger.
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Wtf, I'm sorry but the part about replays must be the dumbest piece of evidence ever. You can see videos of Losira, July, MMA and MC plastered all over GOMTV.net. If you're too cheap to pay for it that's your own problem, but the content is there and available to you.
In fact your overall argument holds no water.
If your favorite NA players were any good at the game, maybe they'd get far enough to matchup against each other. Lol, don't blame the Koreans, blame your NA players.
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I also find it funny that CatZ comes in here, says "i'm not referring to myself" and then also adds "i still think my opinion is right", but then never really looks at what other people are saying, nor really replies to them to try and argue his viewpoint.
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On June 19 2011 10:30 ct2299 wrote:
I also find it funny that CatZ comes in here, says "i'm not referring to myself" and then also adds "i still think my opinion is right", but then never really looks at what other people are saying, nor really replies to them to try and argue his viewpoint.
agreed
you basically just summarized this thread thank you
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I watched the video and it's a load of nonsense.
The video starts with catz saying that non koreans can compete with koreans then suddenly he starts going on another tangent by saying that koreans shouldn't play in the nasl. Well, clearly koreans are better players and the chances of them winning an 'offline' tournament is much higher compared with eu and then na players. You can see it in the nasl and at the last dreamhack when mc won it. If non koreans had a good chance of winning, then having koreans compete wouldn't be an issue.
Also, it's not as if korea and their players are taking prize money out of non korean tournaments because gsl has a partnership with mlg to bring na/eu players to korea. (it's quite obvious the code s/code a spots are for non koreans since the players they send from korea are usually already in code s/code a.
Also i believe naniwa and thorzain are going to korea and staying with a korean team. Also huk and jinro have been there for ages and the gsl/koreans are actually trying their best to foster a international gaming environment for everybody.
I remember in the gsl supertournament, many foreign players didn't want to risk going to korea to play for a share of the prize pool since they might go there and have a negative return after accommodation and upkeep costs. The fact is a lot of koreans play in a pretty tough environment, having progaming houses etc. Tlo is also in a progaming house but that's the first time i've heard of that from a western team. I think the reason why koreans and europeans have much better results than americans (except idra) is because they play to become better rather than play to win.
American culture is basically winner takes all. Nobody remembers second best. I mean most of these american style idioms state winning is everything. That's why a lot of americans cheese and play to win and get angry and nerdrage online. Europeans also have this issue but to a lesser extent, and for the koreans, this is something that rarely happens. Koreans play to become better and it has shown in the way koreans have now become much better at sc2 in 2011 than europeans and american players, whereas in 2010 the field was much more even.
Having more of the prize pool go to americans/europeans would mean it would be easier financially to play sc2 as a career but then they still need to have a 'korean' style attitude to work.
I think the american ladder is definately the weakest 'big' server alongside na/korea/china because a lot of the players just play to win rather than play to improve. I think there are some american players who have a good attitude that means they can improve as a player if, and only IF they move to korea, such as incontrol, idra (i know he went there before), select (he is korean but i'll call him us for simplicity), sheth, slush, moonan and others. But it really depends on them if they want to make the move or not. If you wanna be a progamer, then you gotta go to the mecca of sc2 gaming and that's korea. I believe elky was one of the first foreigners who went to korea to play starcraft professionally and it didn't hurt him since he became a rich poker player. The point is, koreans in general have a much better attitude and that really helps them mentally. I believe the na/eu players are weaker compared to the koreans because of their game knowledge of timings etc is much less complete and because their mentality is weaker also.
I believe that if any na/eu player goes to korea for 6 months to a year, then they will definately become much stronger as a player. Na/eu tournaments need koreans since it helps the eu/na players develop as players which is the next best thing if you can't go to korea to stay and play.
I know a lot of this is off topic but i think most of it relates to the topic at hand.
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CatZ's NASL record thus far:
![[image loading]](http://i55.tinypic.com/28wnk3c.jpg)
i dont think all his opponents were koreans. perhaps he just needs to figure out a way to play better?
meanwhile, ret, a non-korean is 8-1
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what a shame they dont live in the UK for example where we have no tournaments or LANs what so ever - expect for i-play
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All I can say, after watching MLG and DH - my hopes for foreigners being competitive against Koreans seems slimmer and slimmer.
Some people just say they wanna see good quality games - but I think the excitement of "who is going to win" is at least as important. Right now, it seems that Koreans always get to the top4, and the foreigners come trailing after. Korean vs foreigner? The Korean will win, but no matter - we'll get a exciting final series, because then it'll only be Koreans left! Too bad even those series are rarely very exciting either.
I don't mind Koreans winning events, its just boring from a spectators point of view when they dominate so hard. Next some will say foreigners just have to get better - well, what if they never do? Should we accept that SC2 is doomed to become another Korean circle-jerk like its predecessor?
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On June 18 2011 17:52 AKA. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 17:45 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 17:20 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 17:05 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:56 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry. There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially. Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports. Actually what the MLS is doing is exactly what the MLG is doing just on a much higher scale. The MLS is paying foreign players exponentially more money than the average MLS player (154,000avg which is insanely skewed by the few foreign superstars, some NA MLS pros make 42,000k/yr, while Beckham gets 6.2million and those other 6 foreign superstars get 1m+.). Also most of the international superstars don't live in the US, they play in our shitty league for an easy payday and commute between the seasons. Now tell me how is this any different than Korean superstars coming to American tournaments/leagues for easy pay days that also grow our scene due to the attention and viewers they bring in. What is the fundamental difference? I'd love to hear it.. -they don't live in the US -they are making WAY more money -they are much better than the rest of the leagues players -they are being brought in and paid more to gain attention to the less popular sport hmmm, seems oddly familar... -They do live in the US ~If Koreans want to just live here during MLG or w/e season that fine. Not arguing against that at all. Free flights to a tourney every few weeks is another story. -If they make more money that they would in korea, many will move here. fantastic -If they are better cool, if not w/e. they should play for the country of their residence. -Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating american stars will grow the sport long term. -Many of them don't live in the US, you can say that if you'd like but it holds no merit. Beckham did purchase a home in 2007 in Beverly Hills but spends most of his time back home in England. As of 2011 I'm not even sure if he still owns the Beverly Hills home. This is completely irrelevant anyway, and totally arbitrary. -So what is going to be your arbitrary timeline for it to be OK for foreigners to come and stay, 3 days tournament not long enough? If they stay in the US for 3 months is that good? 6 months? 21 days? 98 days? Is it OK for Korean teams to send their players every 3 months for 3 days to win MLG? Since you're completely hung up on the physical time they are within the countries borders, what is it going to be for you to think it is OK? "Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating American stars will grow the sport long term." You have yet to demonstrate why that would be the case as opposed to myself and others offering real world examples of how sports have grown in the past, or how money actually works. I'd love, fucking LOVE to go watch an MLS game and have someone say "hmm I'm not sure about this, do these players on the field actually LIVE IN THE US? Hmm, I'm not sure if I can support this, I need to know exactly where these players are from and if they are living within the US." Because guess what, that's never fucking happened EVER. People only care about watching good, entertaining soccer games. I've also never read about NA soccer players crying about better foreigners coming into the MLS with 10x their salary. Let me ask you this would the MLS fail if in the 2012 season if 75% of their players come from clubs in brazil and only reside in the US during the season? (Here a hint: nobody would care if they level of play and entertainment stayed the same or got better.) We are working with a loose definition of "living here" when it comes to people so rich they can go to Italy for breakfast. However, they do earn their salary here, whereas the Koreans earn theirs in Korea, then come to the US to earn our tourney prizes. These soccer pros are not earning pay in two country's at once (from the sport, excluding side money like doing commercials).
???
Wait, so to appease you, Korea should send over a ringer to join a foreign team to earn foreign money?
On June 20 2011 06:25 Bagi wrote:
All I can say, after watching MLG and DH - my hopes for foreigners being competitive against Koreans seems slimmer and slimmer.
Some people just say they wanna see good quality games - but I think the excitement of "who is going to win" is at least as important. Right now, it seems that Koreans always get to the top4, and the foreigners come trailing after. Korean vs foreigner? The Korean will win, but no matter - we'll get a exciting final series, because then it'll only be Koreans left! Too bad even those series are rarely very exciting either.
I don't mind Koreans winning events, its just boring from a spectators point of view when they dominate so hard. Next some will say foreigners just have to get better - well, what if they never do? Should we accept that SC2 is doomed to become another Korean circle-jerk like its predecessor?
Losira vs MMA was damn entertaining. Losira vs MC was damn entertaining as well. I don't understand how they could be considered "not exciting".
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On June 20 2011 06:40 JinDesu wrote:
Losira vs MMA was damn entertaining. Losira vs MC was damn entertaining as well. I don't understand how they could be considered "not exciting".
Losira vs MC was exciting, yes. Losira vs MMA, kinda one-sided and quick.
Thing is, for those 2 series we got a TON of series with Koreans taking out foreigners in one-sided games. Is the trade-off really worth it?
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Instead of removing the koreans, get your heads down and practice... or else you're not worthy of the title professional gamer.
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i guess the notion that foreigners can compete with koreans is now pretty much dead. i don't see why people think the gap will ever close, koreans are just way more dedicated to the game then foreigners. there's no way that the foreign scene will catch up with the current esports infrastructure. oh well i guess sc2 is becoming another brood war where koreans are the kings of the game, kinda makes me lose interest in the game tbh
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EPT
