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On June 18 2011 16:36 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 16:26 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:18 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:06 TheOne85 wrote:
The problem that CatZ was trying to explain, and I know this because hes trying to argue the same thing that iNcoNtroL and everyone has said before is that the koreans coming over and owning the scene early will deter the competition and will kill the entire drive of americans (aka the people living in NA - aka young people trying to start their lives) and in-turn destroy the efforts to grow the scene in north america. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is accurate and one of the major parts to the argument.
I'm sure someone else has already said it, but things like this always get too heated and there are way too many pages and too little time for me to see for myself unfortunately. then they aren't good enough or dedicated to be professionals. what kind of scene is this if we are striving to build our bronze medal leagues? What are we a bunch of lazy gamers who don't want to try as hard but want the fame and fortune of being a pro level player/athlete? Hmm the American way after all! like i said before esports grows with business interest, not whiny kids that want to be gamers for a living. international and koreans specifically grow our scene due to the numbers they pull in. the numbers the businesses that may invest in esports actually care about. Good lord dude you don't get anyone's point. It should be possible to be an AMERICAN professional gamer, you shouldn't have to be 1-16 in the world. If E-Sports is to grow to normal sport levels, it HAS to be localized or there's just no money for growth. Imagine if in order to be a pro football team you had to compete with the best teams in the world every time so that only the top 16 in the world get any real money. America would have every pro team! That's just lame and the sport would never grow, except in america. No what you (and people in this thread with your opinion) don't understand is that is impossible, AT THIS STAGE OF ESPORTS DEVELOPMENT. Localized tournaments do not get enough attention or business interest to support professional gaming (making your entire income from playing in tournaments and from sponsors). The only way this will ever be possible is to continue to have marquee tournaments with huge stars that get tons of stream views and numbers investors/sponsors care about. The real money in SC2 as an esport is in Korea, we need to siphon there success to build our own. The rest of your post is nonsense. It already IS possible to be an American professional gamer, why isn't there? Because 4 koreans are invited to MLG? Because the NASL has a handful? Your football analogy is equally as silly because there are salary caps. These salary caps spread talent across the teams (COMPRISED OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD). MLB would be a better example as they have no cap and the most money can afford the most talent. Are you saying it's not worth it to play MLB if you aren't on the Yankees or the Red Sox? Don't be ridiculous. However, like I've been saying it's ridiculous to compare esports to any major sport at this point. Esports cant afford a seat in an NFL stadium if you put them into comparison terms of scale. At this point those sports are so gigantic you don't have to be the best player in the world (someone in the NFL/MLB) to 'make a living' you can play in triple A, Arena Football, CFL, or other international leagues. The point is you don't start with triple A and hope it becomes the NFL, that's going backwards. You start with the best players in the world to GROW the sport, once the sport is big enough to self sustain, tiers will develop just like it has in every major sport on the planet.
You took that football example way to literally, I was only talking about the general structure as an analogy...
I did not compare the scale nor salary. I did not speak of buying talent or anything you said really. That was not the point of the analogy. Would you prefer i used minor league baseball? Do I have to come up with the perfect sport analogy for you to be able to comprehend my point? Unbelievable...stay on topic.
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On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
But the problem with that is that there are not enough really good American players to even fill a 16 player tournament as it is now.
Well you wanted an tournament like the GSL and I doubt there are alot of players in the GSL who live on the other side of Korea. I never called you stupid, I said that the idea of having an local tournament at the stage where we are at now in a country spread over three timezones is stupid. Not you or Catz, just the idea.
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On June 18 2011 16:43 Krejven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. But the problem with that is that there are not enough really good American players to even fill a 16 player tournament as it is now. Well you wanted an tournament like the GSL and I doubt there are alot of players in the GSL who live on the other side of Korea. I never called you stupid, I said that the idea of having an local tournament at the stage where we are at now in a country spread over three timezones is stupid. Not you or Catz, just the idea.
You are correct, there is not enough pro american gamers to create an american GSL. That wont change with the current system either. We need to be able to grow outside of koreas shadow, much the same way american soccer is growing, or we'll never have an american GSL.
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On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here.
http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/
Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN.
When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible.
For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
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On June 18 2011 12:14 Souljah wrote:
I agree 100% with everything CatZ said. I thought this exact same thing with MLG. I don't see how watching the koreans dominate all the NA and EU players would benefit E-Sports globally. I'm sure plenty of players were discouraged by this.
However, on a spectator side.. fuck that was cool as shit to watch.
Precisely 
And thats one of the "problems" of the issue. Atm there might not be a good alignment between what the audience wants and what is best long term for the non-korean scene. "Might not" being the key phrase.
And why its worth talking and speculating about,
Speculate/philosophy a little on how the e-sports scene can grow in EU/NA(regions outside Korea really ) - and THEN relate that to Catz argument.
It seems to me that a lot of comments are not taking that step and just kneejerking to the "Koreans are just better, live with it and get better".
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On June 18 2011 16:40 AKA. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 16:36 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:26 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:18 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:06 TheOne85 wrote:
The problem that CatZ was trying to explain, and I know this because hes trying to argue the same thing that iNcoNtroL and everyone has said before is that the koreans coming over and owning the scene early will deter the competition and will kill the entire drive of americans (aka the people living in NA - aka young people trying to start their lives) and in-turn destroy the efforts to grow the scene in north america. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is accurate and one of the major parts to the argument.
I'm sure someone else has already said it, but things like this always get too heated and there are way too many pages and too little time for me to see for myself unfortunately. then they aren't good enough or dedicated to be professionals. what kind of scene is this if we are striving to build our bronze medal leagues? What are we a bunch of lazy gamers who don't want to try as hard but want the fame and fortune of being a pro level player/athlete? Hmm the American way after all! like i said before esports grows with business interest, not whiny kids that want to be gamers for a living. international and koreans specifically grow our scene due to the numbers they pull in. the numbers the businesses that may invest in esports actually care about. Good lord dude you don't get anyone's point. It should be possible to be an AMERICAN professional gamer, you shouldn't have to be 1-16 in the world. If E-Sports is to grow to normal sport levels, it HAS to be localized or there's just no money for growth. Imagine if in order to be a pro football team you had to compete with the best teams in the world every time so that only the top 16 in the world get any real money. America would have every pro team! That's just lame and the sport would never grow, except in america. No what you (and people in this thread with your opinion) don't understand is that is impossible, AT THIS STAGE OF ESPORTS DEVELOPMENT. Localized tournaments do not get enough attention or business interest to support professional gaming (making your entire income from playing in tournaments and from sponsors). The only way this will ever be possible is to continue to have marquee tournaments with huge stars that get tons of stream views and numbers investors/sponsors care about. The real money in SC2 as an esport is in Korea, we need to siphon there success to build our own. The rest of your post is nonsense. It already IS possible to be an American professional gamer, why isn't there? Because 4 koreans are invited to MLG? Because the NASL has a handful? Your football analogy is equally as silly because there are salary caps. These salary caps spread talent across the teams (COMPRISED OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD). MLB would be a better example as they have no cap and the most money can afford the most talent. Are you saying it's not worth it to play MLB if you aren't on the Yankees or the Red Sox? Don't be ridiculous. However, like I've been saying it's ridiculous to compare esports to any major sport at this point. Esports cant afford a seat in an NFL stadium if you put them into comparison terms of scale. At this point those sports are so gigantic you don't have to be the best player in the world (someone in the NFL/MLB) to 'make a living' you can play in triple A, Arena Football, CFL, or other international leagues. The point is you don't start with triple A and hope it becomes the NFL, that's going backwards. You start with the best players in the world to GROW the sport, once the sport is big enough to self sustain, tiers will develop just like it has in every major sport on the planet. You took that football example way to literally, I was only talking about the general structure as an analogy... I did not compare the scale nor salary. I did not speak of buying talent or anything you said really. That was not the point of the analogy. Would you prefer i used minor league baseball? Do I have to come up with the perfect sport analogy for you to be able to comprehend my point? Unbelievable...stay on topic.
Ugh, I'm done with you. You've lacked any semblance of critical thinking.
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On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry.
There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially.
Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
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On June 18 2011 15:13 AKA. wrote:
Edit: What is all this about being "fair" to NA players, we just want starcraft here run like it is in Korea, or like every other sport in the world is run, as that is a proven way to grow a sport.
Important point that.
It is amazing how many here are saying that Catz should just do like the Koreans - when Catz is basically advocating that the regional league should be run like the Korean ones.
Live there to fight there.
And then have global events on top.
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On June 18 2011 16:56 AKA. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry. There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially. Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Actually what the MLS is doing is exactly what the MLG is doing just on a much higher scale.
The MLS is paying foreign players exponentially more money than the average MLS player (154,000avg which is insanely skewed by the few foreign superstars, some NA MLS pros make 42,000k/yr, while Beckham gets 6.2million and those other 6 foreign superstars get 1m+.). Also most of the international superstars don't live in the US, they play in our shitty league for an easy payday and commute between the seasons.
Now tell me how is this any different than Korean superstars coming to American tournaments/leagues for easy pay days that also grow our scene due to the attention and viewers they bring in. What is the fundamental difference? I'd love to hear it..
-they don't live in the US
-they are making WAY more money
-they are much better than the rest of the leagues players
-they are being brought in and paid more to gain attention to the less popular sport
hmmm, seems oddly familar...
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The major problem with SC2 isn't that Koreans are beating us in our own major tournaments, it's that there's no local scenes. You have MLG, NASL, and some other online tourneys. There needs to be support from LAN centers. You NEED a local community unless you want to end up the same was as Brood War. Also support your local LAN center, don't let them die like arcades did.
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This whole thread is the "Should NASL invite Koreans?" discussion recycled all over again.
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On June 18 2011 13:12 coL.CatZ wrote:
thank you. lets take your example, provided India's basketball had the acceptance / the following that the NBA has or similar in smaller numbers, India's basketball if left alone could potentially eventually compete with any other country, we have the fanbase and the following in NA and EU to make our own scenes grow stronger and more powerful too.
This must be why the Chinese Basketball League and the Canadian Football League turn out such huge numbers of world-class players, right? There is little appeal for fans in watching a clearly inferior product (which limits the amount of sponsorship dollars such a league can potentially receive), and the inevitable result of a two-tiered system with non-interacting leagues is that the superior league will use the lower league as a de facto farm system and will lure away sufficiently good players. It's absurd to think that the lower league will catch up to the superior league in quality of play over time, this has basically never happened in the history of competition.
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On June 18 2011 17:05 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 16:56 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry. There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially. Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports. Actually what the MLS is doing is exactly what the MLG is doing just on a much higher scale. The MLS is paying foreign players exponentially more money than the average MLS player (154,000avg which is insanely skewed by the few foreign superstars, some NA MLS pros make 42,000k/yr, while Beckham gets 6.2million and those other 6 foreign superstars get 1m+.). Also most of the international superstars don't live in the US, they play in our shitty league for an easy payday and commute between the seasons. Now tell me how is this any different than Korean superstars coming to American tournaments/leagues for easy pay days that also grow our scene due to the attention and viewers they bring in. What is the fundamental difference? I'd love to hear it.. -they don't live in the US -they are making WAY more money -they are much better than the rest of the leagues players -they are being brought in and paid more to gain attention to the less popular sport hmmm, seems oddly familar...
-They do live in the US
~If Koreans want to just live here during MLG or w/e season that fine. Not arguing against that at all. Free flights to a tourney every few weeks is another story.
-If they make more money that they would in korea, many will move here. fantastic
-If they are better cool, if not w/e. they should play for the country of their residence.
-Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating american stars will grow the sport long term.
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I never really thought about a lot of these points before, but I almost completely agree with CatZ. Well said.
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On June 18 2011 17:19 blah_blah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 13:12 coL.CatZ wrote:
thank you. lets take your example, provided India's basketball had the acceptance / the following that the NBA has or similar in smaller numbers, India's basketball if left alone could potentially eventually compete with any other country, we have the fanbase and the following in NA and EU to make our own scenes grow stronger and more powerful too.
This must be why the Chinese Basketball League and the Canadian Football League turn out such huge numbers of world-class players, right? There is little appeal for fans in watching a clearly inferior product (which limits the amount of sponsorship dollars such a league can potentially receive), and the inevitable result of a two-tiered system with non-interacting leagues is that the superior league will use the lower league as a de facto farm system and will lure away sufficiently good players. It's absurd to think that the lower league will catch up to the superior league in quality of play over time, this has basically never happened in the history of competition.
It happens all the time, unexpected countries beat us at Olympic basketball, we got better at soccer ect.
The chinease basketball and canadian football have naught to do with being an inferior product, sports fans have clearly demonstrated the ability to be insanely supportive of awful teams. It has to do with the cultural popularity of the sport in general, if we moved the NFL to canada it wouldn't necessarily be an instant hit.
You bring up a point that if the US simply isn't culturally accepting of esports then it will not grow by my logic. I agree, however if this is the case we a screwed with or without Koreans here, so I choose to not bring up that point.
I do think that, unlike canadian football, the US is ready to push esports to a new level given proper conditions, but in this I could be wrong.
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On June 18 2011 16:56 AKA. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry. There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially. Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports.
Players that go to Korea and do well gain fame and some amount of fortune which they can use to their advantage once they leave to draw bigger crowds to other tournaments since so many people watch the GSL. If a foreigner won Code S he would be a huge draw for any other tournament he participated in.
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On June 18 2011 17:27 mcfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 16:56 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry. There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially. Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports. Players that go to Korea and do well gain fame and some amount of fortune which they can use to their advantage once they leave to draw bigger crowds to other tournaments since so many people watch the GSL. If a foreigner won Code S he would be a huge draw for any other tournament he participated in.
This is true, however because he is forced to live in korea to compete there, the likelihood of him strengthening our esport is limited, and would be to a much lesser degree than he grows korean esports since he'd really add to foreign subscribers.
On the other hand if that player won the major league in the US, then went on to play a global tourney and won that, wow would that have an impact on US esports.
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On June 18 2011 17:26 AKA. wrote:It happens all the time, unexpected countries beat us at Olympic basketball, we got better at soccer ect.
The countries that beat the US in olympic basketball had most of their starters playing in the NBA. I don't think you can seriously argue that this would have happened if Argentina or Spain had all their players only competing domestically. You are actually proving my point for me.
On June 18 2011 17:26 AKA. wrote:
The chinease basketball and canadian football have naught to do with being an inferior product, sports fans have clearly demonstrated the ability to be insanely supportive of awful teams. It has to do with the cultural popularity of the sport in general, if we moved the NFL to canada it wouldn't necessarily be an instant hit.
Basketball is really popular in China, and the CFL actually puts up very respectable attendance figures. These teams are supported by fans! The point is that leagues such as these can be successful up to a point. But it's not as if either league has closed the skill/talent gap with the NBA/NFL, or as if the Chinese Basketball League has approached the revenues of the NBA despite the gigantic, growing Chinese economy. This is because fans are not stupid, they can support their local leagues and whatnot, but ultimately they want to see the best players play. And sponsors recognize this and allocate their sponsorship dollars accordingly.
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On June 18 2011 17:20 AKA. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 17:05 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:56 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:47 crms wrote:On June 18 2011 16:38 AKA. wrote:On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote:On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote:
You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't.
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer.
About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/m-l-s-salary-figures-released/Here is just more for you to think about. MLS, major league soccer is Americas attempt to get a big American league for soccer, a sport we generally don't care about. Look at how they've tried to build the sport. Nobody gave a shit about the MLS as it was comprised of bad Americans and foreigners that weren't good enough for premiere leagues. Some strategies they've had? Invite the biggest international star to come over and build attention (David Beckham). Also check out the salaries the top 7 highest paid players (the only players making $1 million, which is peanuts compared to what EU stars make) all but 1 aren't even AMERICAN. When your country doesn't care about a sport (soccer or in our case, starcraft/esports etc.) you aren't going to magically build it to any substantial level by having mediocre games between NA only players. If this is what you want for NA ESports, an MLS equivalent where a European players salary could cover multiple teams entire payrolls than cool, I guess we as Americans can cheer on our AMERICAN players who are completely terrible. For me? I'd rather build America as THE international esports hub, I want the biggest and the best tournaments to be held in America. I want people from all over the world to relocate to America if they want to seriously pursue esports. I want NA Starcraft to be the Korean Brood War. However, we will never get there catering to NA only players who aren't good enough to compete at an international level, sorry. There's nothing wrong with the fact the foreign players came to america and spurred the growth of soccer, the fact is the came here, lived here, worked here, and played for us. By making it so that Koreans have to live here to earn our prize pools, they will be helping our esports and not Koreas when and if they do. And they will, because eventually the money will make it worth it, and there will be less competition initially. Right now its the opposite, we have good players in Korea growing their esports. Actually what the MLS is doing is exactly what the MLG is doing just on a much higher scale. The MLS is paying foreign players exponentially more money than the average MLS player (154,000avg which is insanely skewed by the few foreign superstars, some NA MLS pros make 42,000k/yr, while Beckham gets 6.2million and those other 6 foreign superstars get 1m+.). Also most of the international superstars don't live in the US, they play in our shitty league for an easy payday and commute between the seasons. Now tell me how is this any different than Korean superstars coming to American tournaments/leagues for easy pay days that also grow our scene due to the attention and viewers they bring in. What is the fundamental difference? I'd love to hear it.. -they don't live in the US -they are making WAY more money -they are much better than the rest of the leagues players -they are being brought in and paid more to gain attention to the less popular sport hmmm, seems oddly familar... -They do live in the US ~If Koreans want to just live here during MLG or w/e season that fine. Not arguing against that at all. Free flights to a tourney every few weeks is another story. -If they make more money that they would in korea, many will move here. fantastic -If they are better cool, if not w/e. they should play for the country of their residence. -Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating american stars will grow the sport long term.
-Many of them don't live in the US, you can say that if you'd like but it holds no merit. Beckham did purchase a home in 2007 in Beverly Hills but spends most of his time back home in England. As of 2011 I'm not even sure if he still owns the Beverly Hills home. This is completely irrelevant anyway, and totally arbitrary.
-So what is going to be your arbitrary timeline for it to be OK for foreigners to come and stay, 3 days tournament not long enough? If they stay in the US for 3 months is that good? 6 months? 21 days? 98 days? Is it OK for Korean teams to send their players every 3 months for 3 days to win MLG? Since you're completely hung up on the physical time they are within the countries borders, what is it going to be for you to think it is OK?
"Long run this will not help the sport become more popular, just create hype for an individual event, which becomes irrelevant when they show up to every one. Creating American stars will grow the sport long term."
You have yet to demonstrate why that would be the case as opposed to myself and others offering real world examples of how sports have grown in the past, or how money actually works. I'd love, fucking LOVE to go watch an MLS game and have someone say "hmm I'm not sure about this, do these players on the field actually LIVE IN THE US? Hmm, I'm not sure if I can support this, I need to know exactly where these players are from and if they are living within the US." Because guess what, that's never fucking happened EVER. People only care about watching good, entertaining soccer games. I've also never read about NA soccer players crying about better foreigners coming into the MLS with 10x their salary.
Let me ask you this would the MLS fail if in the 2012 season if 75% of their players come from clubs in brazil and only reside in the US during the season? (Here a hint: nobody would care if they level of play and entertainment stayed the same or got better.)
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On June 18 2011 17:26 AKA. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 17:19 blah_blah wrote:On June 18 2011 13:12 coL.CatZ wrote:
thank you. lets take your example, provided India's basketball had the acceptance / the following that the NBA has or similar in smaller numbers, India's basketball if left alone could potentially eventually compete with any other country, we have the fanbase and the following in NA and EU to make our own scenes grow stronger and more powerful too.
This must be why the Chinese Basketball League and the Canadian Football League turn out such huge numbers of world-class players, right? There is little appeal for fans in watching a clearly inferior product (which limits the amount of sponsorship dollars such a league can potentially receive), and the inevitable result of a two-tiered system with non-interacting leagues is that the superior league will use the lower league as a de facto farm system and will lure away sufficiently good players. It's absurd to think that the lower league will catch up to the superior league in quality of play over time, this has basically never happened in the history of competition. It happens all the time, unexpected countries beat us at Olympic basketball, we got better at soccer ect. The chinease basketball and canadian football have naught to do with being an inferior product, sports fans have clearly demonstrated the ability to be insanely supportive of awful teams. It has to do with the cultural popularity of the sport in general, if we moved the NFL to canada it wouldn't necessarily be an instant hit. You bring up a point that if the US simply isn't culturally accepting of esports then it will not grow by my logic. I agree, however if this is the case we a screwed with or without Koreans here, so I choose to not bring up that point. I do think that, unlike canadian football, the US is ready to push esports to a new level given proper conditions, but in this I could be wrong.
Olympic basketball and NBA are very different games. The rules and reffing are completely different. The fact that the US can win while playing a different game every year just shows how inferior other countries are to us. There's also the fact that there's many NBA players on the other teams.
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EPT
