EPTCatz's argument explained - Page 26
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AKA.
76 Posts
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Quarz
448 Posts
On June 18 2011 14:34 NineteenSC2 wrote: The fact is Korea has decent players sprouting & participating in NA tournaments (which are then streamed here), way too rapidly. I feel like we're still watching the same old NA players compete that we saw when the beta just came out. The problem is, these new Korean players popping up every now and then reduce the hype & "passion" if you will, for NA viewers. It's like seeing a soccer game and you have Brasil (which everyone knows and loves) face against a team nobody knows about. I mean, it's just not fun. Not to mention, if we start to like a Korean player we cannot find any replays or information of him to really "attach" ourselves or root for that player in the future. If we had more North American players participating in NA tournaments, fans would be able to connect with these players. Next big tournament you'll see another Korean that nobody knows about, but wait, hes famous in Korea so it's okay. This is really hurting E-Sports in general. I for one hardly watch tournament streams now because, well, I can't watch two NA players that I really love go head to head and play a simple decent game. Here's a simple analogy that I hope makes sense to everyone: There's a tennis team with 100 players. They're all local players from Canada. Each week 20 of the players face each other one on one, however, the lineup is different every time. Each week 5 new players are added and 5 old players are removed. Now if you have 3 random players (i.e Koreans) & 2 local players (i.e Canadians) coming in, there's no real game. The crowd will lessen because there are now 3 less players they know about. Now if one of those 3 players ends up winning the whole thing, the crowd is left with an amazing player, who's really just a stranger. MLG and NASL is considered to be highest Tournements in NA. If they want to count as high Tournement you have invite Koreans simple as that. MLG and NASL aren't some random tournements. Your Tennis analogy is bad. If this organisers of this canadian open wants that their canadian open should be considered one of the big Tennis tourneys you have to invite big players. It is like english Tennis players whine that they dont win wembley because of Nadal and Federer. | ||
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XenoX101
Australia729 Posts
Yeah I fail at quotes, fixed  . | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
On June 18 2011 15:24 Quarz wrote: MLG and NASL is considered to be highest Tournements in NA. If they want to count as high Tournement you have invite Koreans simple as that. MLG and NASL aren't some random tournements. Your Tennis analogy is bad. If this organisers of this canadian open wants that their canadian open should be considered one of the big Tennis tourneys you have to invite big players. It is like english Tennis players whine that they dont win wembley because of Nadal and Federer. Not really, it's perfectly legitimate to have a national, or continental tourney and still be popular and "high." The NFL has not suffered for not inviting foreign teams, nor have the thousands of professional teams that play in national leagues around the world. Your tennis example is also bad, once again, no one said that global tournaments shouldn't happen, just that they should be the result of finding the best in each country via national leagues. Just like every sport in the world. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
The most important thing we can do right now is hold huge draw (viewers/attention) tournaments to keep the momentum going and continue to build an infrastructure. Having Koreans and other ACTUAL professional level players is key to this. These people will consistently perform well or win tournaments and build fan bases. The biggest events in SC2 history in terms of viewership have been the GSL and big international tournaments where people from all over the world are competing with great competition. These tournaments generally have mega prize pools and tons of HYPE. The exception is MLG whose prize pool is laughable but still they maintain a lot of respect for their tournament because of the competition and team representation. Eventually as ESPORTS hopefully grows to the level of other second tier (read: not the NFL or NBA, or the other highest echelon sports) individual sports in the west things will balance out. There will be more than enough local homegrown tournaments and events that bad amateur level NA players can earn a living just like golfers that are good enough to qualify for PGA tour cards but have no hopes of winning a major. The people who follow the weekly cups aren't the people who are going to make esports explode. The ones that gain all of the attention are the huge international leagues like the NASL, GSL, MLG, and DreamHack. Investors and sponsors want to see big stream numbers, big attendance numbers and a potential to see a ROI. They don't care who the players are or where they are from, they care that consumers give a shit about the tournament they're sponsoring or hosting. The only way for esports to grow is to get more money, esports and SC2 are a business. Some people really need to grow up. Not everyone gets a piece of the pie, not everyone is good enough to make a living in video games. ESPORTS isn't for kids, its business | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
They're going to make an online tournament and invite all the big names because it's a lot cheaper to do it all online, and it just doesn't make sense to only invite players who are x miles away from the server. If CatZ wants tournaments to make make decisions that would have made sense 10 years ago and not be as successful as they should be given their size then he has no idea what's good for esports. And most Koreans don't even join these smaller tournaments anyways because of latency issues so the problem has already been solved; you see plenty of new faces in them anyways. I think he's only upset since his small chances of winning big tournaments are diminishing faster with the introduction of Korean players. | ||
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Gojira621
United States374 Posts
He is NOT saying Koreans should not be allowed in non-Korean leagues, but rather that the non-Korean leagues like MLG and NASL should really establish themselves first and then gradually invite some Koreans to come play. Having champs from North American and Europe help encourage players in that area because they have something to hold onto. | ||
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Quarz
448 Posts
On June 18 2011 15:36 AKA. wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 18 2011 15:24 Quarz wrote: MLG and NASL is considered to be highest Tournements in NA. If they want to count as high Tournement you have invite Koreans simple as that. MLG and NASL aren't some random tournements. Your Tennis analogy is bad. If this organisers of this canadian open wants that their canadian open should be considered one of the big Tennis tourneys you have to invite big players. It is like english Tennis players whine that they dont win wembley because of Nadal and Federer. Not really, it's perfectly legitimate to have a national, or continental tourney and still be popular and "high." The NFL has not suffered for not inviting foreign teams, nor have the thousands of professional teams that play in national leagues around the world. Your tennis example is also bad, once again, no one said that global tournaments shouldn't happen, just that they should be the result of finding the best in each country via national leagues. Just like every sport in the world. NFL is the highest League in the world for AF. Anyway AF is a Team game and Teams are not comparable to a single player. Your NFL example only makes sense if in NFL foreigner players are now allowed but i doubt there are not allowed. You could also whine that Dirk Nowithky and his Teams has von the NBA championship because he is a german and NBA is a NA Baskatball league. NASL and MLG wants to be considered on of the big leagues, so it logical to invite EU and Kr player. | ||
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Gojira621
United States374 Posts
On June 18 2011 15:53 Quarz wrote: NFL is the highest League in the world for AF. Ayyway AF is a Team game and Teams are not comparable to a single player. Your NFL example only makes sense if in NFL foreigner players are now allowed but i doubt there are not allowed. You could also whine that Dirk Nowithky and his Teams has von the NBA championship because he is a german and NBA is a NA Baskatball league. NASL and MLG wants to be considered on of the big leagues, so it logical to invite EU and Kr player. the nba had long established itself as being dominated by americans before europeans and other foreign players slowly leaked into the league. Now there are gradually more europeans because the nba has grown internationally and has that solid american background where the best in the world want to come compete because they know thats where the best talent plays, not just because it is all-americans, but because the best foreign players are there as well. | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
On June 18 2011 15:53 Quarz wrote: NFL is the highest League in the world for AF. Ayyway AF is a Team game and Teams are not comparable to a single player. Your NFL example only makes sense if in NFL foreigner players are now allowed but i doubt there are not allowed. You could also whine that Dirk Nowithky and his Teams has von the NBA championship because he is a german and NBA is a NA Baskatball league. NASL and MLG wants to be considered on of the big leagues, so it logical to invite EU and Kr player. Wrong on all points. In my argument the NFL is Korea, using a system that DOES NOT allow foreign teams to compete in the american league. If the team moves to the USA sure they have a chance of getting into the NFL, but that's not counter to mine or Catz point, but in support of it. "For Dirk Nowitzki, the only thing that could come close to being an NBA champion for the first time was celebrating it with the fans in his adopted hometown of Dallas." Thats quoted from CBSSports.com, Dirk Nowitzki lives in Dallas, throwing your whole point out the window. Catz and I agree that if you move here to compete that's 100% legitimate, but to fly here to clean up and leave every few weeks is not, Korea doesn't allow it, the NFL doesn't allow it, the NBA doesn't allow it, no pro sport in the world that I know of allows it. | ||
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Shaok
297 Posts
I'm sure someone else has already said it, but things like this always get too heated and there are way too many pages and too little time for me to see for myself unfortunately. | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
On June 18 2011 16:06 TheOne85 wrote: The problem that CatZ was trying to explain, and I know this because hes trying to argue the same thing that iNcoNtroL and everyone has said before is that the koreans coming over and owning the scene early will deter the competition and will kill the entire drive of americans (aka the people living in NA - aka young people trying to start their lives) and in-turn destroy the efforts to grow the scene in north america. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is accurate and one of the major parts to the argument. I'm sure someone else has already said it, but things like this always get too heated and there are way too many pages and too little time for me to see for myself unfortunately. then they aren't good enough or dedicated to be professionals. what kind of scene is this if we are striving to build our bronze medal leagues? What are we a bunch of lazy gamers who don't want to try as hard but want the fame and fortune of being a pro level player/athlete? Hmm the American way after all! like i said before esports grows with business interest, not whiny kids that want to be gamers for a living. international and koreans specifically grow our scene due to the numbers they pull in. the numbers the businesses that may invest in esports actually care about. | ||
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Quarz
448 Posts
On June 18 2011 16:06 AKA. wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 18 2011 15:53 Quarz wrote: NFL is the highest League in the world for AF. Ayyway AF is a Team game and Teams are not comparable to a single player. Your NFL example only makes sense if in NFL foreigner players are now allowed but i doubt there are not allowed. You could also whine that Dirk Nowithky and his Teams has von the NBA championship because he is a german and NBA is a NA Baskatball league. NASL and MLG wants to be considered on of the big leagues, so it logical to invite EU and Kr player. Wrong on all points. In my argument the NFL is Korea, using a system that DOES NOT allow foreign teams to compete in the american league. If the team moves to the USA sure they have a chance of getting into the NFL, but that's not counter to mine or Catz point, but in support of it. "For Dirk Nowitzki, the only thing that could come close to being an NBA champion for the first time was celebrating it with the fans in his adopted hometown of Dallas." Thats quoted from CBSSports.com, Dirk Nowitzki lives in Dallas, throwing your whole point out the window. Catz and I agree that if you move here to compete that's 100% legitimate, but to fly here to clean up and leave every few weeks is not, Korea doesn't allow it, the NFL doesn't allow it, the NBA doesn't allow it, no pro sport in the world that I know of allows it. To play and train Baskatball you have to be there. Pretty simple. It was NASL dicision to play some aspects of this tournement online. Why you have to be in NA if you have to play online. If NASL is like GSL then you have to be there. You have to argue with the NASL organisators why they shouldn't allowed Kr. But NASL guys are not r sponsible for that the NA players are not good at SC2. Your argument ist flawed, because the origanisators of those tournements has others interests than Catz and yours. If Catz think he is so right he can search for sponsors to support his NA-only league with huge prize pools. But what the NASL guys do with their money is only their choice. | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
On June 18 2011 16:18 crms wrote: then they aren't good enough or dedicated to be professionals. what kind of scene is this if we are striving to build our bronze medal leagues? What are we a bunch of lazy gamers who don't want to try as hard but want the fame and fortune of being a pro level player/athlete? Hmm the American way after all! like i said before esports grows with business interest, not whiny kids that want to be gamers for a living. international and koreans specifically grow our scene due to the numbers they pull in. the numbers the businesses that may invest in esports actually care about. Good lord dude you don't get anyone's point. It should be possible to be pro gamer by being among the best in AMERICA, you shouldn't have to be 1-16 in the world. If E-Sports is to grow to normal sport levels, it HAS to be localized or there's just no money for growth. Imagine if in order to be a pro football team you had to compete with the best teams in the world every time so that only the top 16 in the world get any real money. America would have every pro team! That's just lame and the sport would never grow, except in america. | ||
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obbob
Canada72 Posts
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Krejven
Sweden105 Posts
On June 18 2011 16:17 AKA. wrote: You either want starcraft to grow like any other sport, or you don't. Every other sport in the world has national leagues that require you to be a resident of the nation, and then those that progress to the top of those leagues compete against the best of other nations for a global title (unless it stops at the national level like the NFL). This fosters an environment that allows professionals to grow in america regardless of how they fair against the other countries until the global tourney comes around, very much like soccer as Catz tried to explain. If Brazilian teams came and competed in america during the regular season because the US has lots of money, it would absolutely destroy american soccer UNLESS they all move to the US in which case it becomes American soccer. About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
On June 18 2011 16:20 Quarz wrote: To play and train Baskatball you have to be there. Pretty simple. It was NASL dicision to play some aspects of this tournement online. Why you have to be in NA if you have to play online. If NASL is like GSL then you have to be there. You have to argue with the NASL organisators why they shouldn't allowed Kr. But NASL guys are not r sponsible for that the NA players are not good at SC2. Your argument ist flawed, because the origanisators of those tournements has others interests than Catz and yours. If Catz think he is so right he can search for sponsors to support his NA-only league with huge prize pools. But what the NASL guys do with their money is only their choice. I agree NASL money their choice, but that's not relevant to a hypothetical argument, I never said we should force people to spend money a certain way. However, it is in the best interest of NASL to grow e-sports in america, so in my opinion they should disallow non-residents from competing, for reasons I've stated a dozen times. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
On June 18 2011 16:26 AKA. wrote: Good lord dude you don't get anyone's point. It should be possible to be an AMERICAN professional gamer, you shouldn't have to be 1-16 in the world. If E-Sports is to grow to normal sport levels, it HAS to be localized or there's just no money for growth. Imagine if in order to be a pro football team you had to compete with the best teams in the world every time so that only the top 16 in the world get any real money. America would have every pro team! That's just lame and the sport would never grow, except in america. No what you (and people in this thread with your opinion) don't understand is that is impossible, AT THIS STAGE OF ESPORTS DEVELOPMENT. Localized tournaments do not get enough attention or business interest to support professional gaming (making your entire income from playing in tournaments and from sponsors). The only way this will ever be possible is to continue to have marquee tournaments with huge stars that get tons of stream views and numbers investors/sponsors care about. The real money in SC2 as an esport is in Korea, we need to siphon there success to build our own. The rest of your post is nonsense. It already IS possible to be an American professional gamer, why isn't there? Because 4 koreans are invited to MLG? Because the NASL has a handful? Your football analogy is equally as silly because there are salary caps. These salary caps spread talent across the teams (COMPRISED OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD). MLB would be a better example as they have no cap and the most money can afford the most talent. Are you saying it's not worth it to play MLB if you aren't on the Yankees or the Red Sox? Don't be ridiculous. However, like I've been saying it's ridiculous to compare esports to any major sport at this point. Esports cant afford a seat in an NFL stadium if you put them into comparison terms of scale. At this point those sports are so gigantic you don't have to be the best player in the world (someone in the NFL/MLB) to 'make a living' you can play in triple A, Arena Football, CFL, or other international leagues. The point is you don't start with triple A and hope it becomes the NFL, that's going backwards. You start with the best players in the world to GROW the sport, once the sport is big enough to self sustain, tiers will develop just like it has in every major sport on the planet. | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
On June 18 2011 16:28 Krejven wrote: About NFL why it stops on a national level, well that is because it's pretty much only in the US that you play that sport so it's a shitty example. You realize that what you and Catz are arguing for is an local tournament just like the one in Korea where you have to live in a specific town. So it won't be a tournament anyone from the US can participate in every week it will be located in a specific town where the only players able to play in it are those who either live in the area or those who can consider moving to that area. But since you do not want to move you won't be able to participate. The only reason the GSL is a viable option is korea is due to the size of the country and the dedication of the players. They are willing to live 10 people in a tiny apartment and play according to a fixed schedule in a town or country far from their home. Catz clearly is not ready for this and I doubt he would be if an "national league" would start in New York for example or Boston or maybe philadelphia. So you want an National tournament like the GSL in a country that spreads over three timezones, it's just plain stupid. Sorry but that's what it is. The NFL was an example, and intelligent person could change the sport and country to suit their preference and make the same point, but that might be asking to much of you. Change the sport to soccer, and make america the weak country in the example I don't care. The rest of your post is simply wrong, sure there could be town tournaments that lead to state tournaments that lead to a national tournament, but that's unlikely to happen, Catz just wants an american league for american pros, like all our other sports. The size of america hasn't stopped pro soccer, or pro football or anything. They are localized by teams, and the internet makes it so teams don't even have to be together for starcraft. So calling me stupid show a lack of insight on your part, and a rude streak that I have mirrored here. | ||
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