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syrianrue
United States56 Posts
why are the koreans this much better at sc2 than the north americans right now? the game came out at the same time, the top level people spend roughly the same amount of time playing the game... so what is it? people like destiny and other streamers... i see them on playing ALLLLL THE TIME. so north american's top players play 12 hours a day, and koreans dont sleep and play 24 hours? | ||
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mcfrog
14 Posts
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AKA.
76 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:21 gosu86 wrote: Many issues Theres going to be a flamewar because of lag and hacking. Also if that were the case why wouldn't MLG be online? Hmm some thinking to do lol Some thinking on your part perhaps, did you not watch the video? "via the internet" doesn't mean playing the tourney online, it means signing up and qualifying online, then flying there and back. | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:05 RudrA wrote: I agree with CatZ This is the same as Women having Seperate leagues. If we let guys play in womens leagues... Women would get DESTROYED Same as NFL and CFL. Koreans should move to North America if they want to compete. Sorry END OF STORY. Same with European Players. Allowing Korean + Euro players will KILL NA Scene. Edit: BTW Catz duno if this Means something but you are THE ONLY NON TERRAN I will watch. So... Thanks again for speaking out as I have been thinking this same thing for a LONG Time. Big up for speaking out and taking all this shit that ppl on TL are giving you. I honestly think some1 needs to get catz behind the scences in tournaments... Stop inviting the Koreas FFS... If you want Koreans vs NAs or Euros make a match like the Korea vs the World... Except women and men have separate leagues cause of physical differences that are scientifically accepted and generally accepted by everyone. There is no racial difference between Koreans and non-Koreans. Hell, if that were so then Select would be as good as the top Korean players. Also, women's leagues are not as big or prestigious as men's leagues typically (there are exceptions probably.) Unless you think the WNBA is more popular than the NBA. So in your hypothetical situation, the NA league would just be a giant joke and everyone would follow the EU/KR scene and just flat out ignore NA. So your idea KILLS the NA scene, if anything. EDIT: spelling | ||
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nAgeDitto
United States428 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:24 syrianrue wrote: just a bunch of excuses it seems like. why are the koreans this much better at sc2 than the north americans right now? the game came out at the same time, the top level people spend roughly the same amount of time playing the game... so what is it? people like destiny and other streamers... i see them on playing ALLLLL THE TIME. so north american's top players play 12 hours a day, and koreans dont sleep and play 24 hours? The game came out at the same time. However, the supporting infrastructure of the 2 scenes was nowhere near close. Korean was ready to support a massive switch over from sc1 to sc2 and was fast on letting pros have decent practice regimes. Also, because of their massive amounts of practice in sc1, they were more used to practicing a lot in sc2. Remember. In Korea, you were able to making a living out of just playing sc1. That was not the case in NA, so a lot of ppl could not practice as much as the koreans, as they needed secondary jobs. Plus. Ladder in NA is NOT a good practice. Even at the top GM level. That is why most pros have a very high winrate in the NA server. Its becuase most of the opponets they meet are far inferior. (Probably the only practice you can get is 'refining' your mechanics and reading some bullshit builds from your opponents. ) Just because you play the game for similar times (I doubt this is the case for most players though. ) there is a massive difference in HOW they spend that time. | ||
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gosu86
208 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:29 AKA. wrote: Some thinking on your part perhaps, did you not watch the video? "via the internet" doesn't mean playing the tourney online, it means signing up and qualifying online, then flying there and back. You should have clarified that than, just saying via internet to clear things up. Yeah I've already thought it out. Anything online is at risk of hacks and lag. Look at how mush hackers were caught in sc2 so far and by some of the players that you would never though would do such a thing. Not to mention latency. Secondly how about language barrier. You state that but it's not as easy as it seems for gomtv to run qualifiers here. Not only that you have to consider financially. Also out of all the people who do make it and really let's be honest what would the percentage be that would top 1st place. Not saying it won't happen but if the NA scene had that mush pro players as korea than maybe it would be worthwhile for them to do it. Than again if you are really that good you wouldn't need qualifiers and just crush koreans lol. | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:20 lazyfeet wrote: I don't know what you mean by what is unfair since jinro and huk are competing in Korea. FXOpen is joining them soon. The reason why NA players can't compete in korea can also apply to the korean can compete here. GSL is running every month so there is little room for Korean to participating in all foreign tournaments. If Not all Korean teams have the Sponsor backing to sent them to us consider how expensive the airplane ticket is. Almost 2/5 top prize for MLG. Ok I don't get how there's so many people who don't understand that the GSL excludes foreigners. You have to LIVE in Korea to play in the GSL, you can't just fly out for a tourney. This is not wrong, this is just like any major sport. If a British team wants to play in the NFL, they have to MOVE HERE, and vice versa, but they are allowed (it would just be extremely difficult). The "not fair" part comes when Britain allows NFL teams to play in Britain while remaining (and playing) in the US, but not vice versa. | ||
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zTz
United States476 Posts
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AKA.
76 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:36 gosu86 wrote: You should have clarified that than, just saying via internet to clear things up. Yeah I've already thought it out. Anything online is at risk of hacks and lag. Look at how mush hackers were caught in sc2 so far and by some of the players that you would never though would do such a thing. Not to mention latency. Secondly how about language barrier. You state that but it's not as easy as it seems for gomtv to run qualifiers here. Not only that you have to consider financially. Also out of all the people who do make it and really let's be honest what would the percentage be that would top 1st place. Not saying it won't happen but if the NA scene had that mush pro players as korea than maybe it would be worthwhile for them to do it. Than again if you are really that good you wouldn't need qualifiers and just crush koreans lol. The Koreans shouldn't allow us to do any of that, and neither should we allow them. Yet we do, despite your listed difficulties. We do, and they don't, an imbalance that gives us the shaft. Also, on TL it is assumed that poster have at least read/watched the OP, it does not fall on me to reiterate the video. | ||
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gosu86
208 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:38 AKA. wrote: Ok I don't get how there's so many people who don't understand that the GSL excludes foreigners. You have to LIVE in Korea to play in the GSL, you can't just fly out for a tourney. This is not wrong, this is just like any major sport. If a British team wants to play in the NFL, they have to MOVE HERE, and vice versa, but they are allowed (it would just be extremely difficult). The "not fair" part comes when Britain allows NFL teams to play in Britain while remaining (and playing) in the US, but not vice versa. Def don't agree If you put the prize money together from all the small tournaments and big ones in America and compare it to the GSL and all their small tournaments pay a lot higher not to mention sponsers etc... The main issue here is there is no one that has truly dominated koreans yet. What I mean by this is if your good enough than obviously you'd go over there and just take the house. Is that not correct? My two cents I just feel there is no foreigners that have reached a bonjwa status championship level that can crush any koreans. I feel in term of top players vs the koreans there is not enough top foreigners. This is coming from someone who always roots for foreigners vs koreans, so keep that in mind. Example: Let's say hypothetically say around 20 foreigners came out of no where. All bonjaws godly 2000apm and came and rocked korea. What would their reaction be? They'd build a fucking statue of these foreigners, yea thats right I said it statue.... | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:24 syrianrue wrote: just a bunch of excuses it seems like. why are the koreans this much better at sc2 than the north americans right now? the game came out at the same time, the top level people spend roughly the same amount of time playing the game... so what is it? people like destiny and other streamers... i see them on playing ALLLLL THE TIME. so north american's top players play 12 hours a day, and koreans dont sleep and play 24 hours? people have given their opinions in order to answer that question dozens of times in this thread. why don't you try reading some of it? hint: the quality of the practice one gets is very important. | ||
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Random321321
32 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:12 AKA. wrote: This is a misunderstanding that many people are making. We didn't make it about Korea, they did by not allowing us into their league without moving there. It's not a fair system, and is not about the fact that they have the best gamers (that's just what brings it to light). If Koreans let us in via the internet, this would not be as big of a deal. "They"? Is CatZ responsible for the rules for NA tournaments? I don't see why Korean players should be punished because of the rules of the tournament scene in Korea, it is not within their control. Again, it seems clear they are being singled out because the players are good, and the rest of these reasons are just a posteriori justifications. | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:44 Random321321 wrote: "They"? Is CatZ responsible for the rules for NA tournaments? I don't see why Korean players should be punished because of the rules of the tournament scene in Korea, it is not within their control. Again, it seems clear they are being singled out because the players are good, and the rest of these reasons are just a posteriori justifications. Are NFL teams "being singled out because the players are good" by not letting them win Canadian prize money? They are not responsible for the fact that the NFL doesn't let Canadian teams play! Please read every part of a conversation before taking a piece out of context. | ||
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syrianrue
United States56 Posts
is it because they spend more time at this game? personally, i dont think so. in counter strike, on the server where i play (NA) i see kids with no life who would play all day, everyday. so the koreans in sc2 is better because they spend more time at this game? if so, perhaps you just lack the dedication? Are they more creative at this games and are more willing to try new things? Or is is because their tournaments have larger prize pool, so therefore, it incensitize their players to spend more time, more energy, and more brain power to strife to better themselves over the opponenets they encounter? if so, couldn't NA simply provide better tournament prizes to encourage the NA players? I really hate seeing these ridiculous self defeating explanation acknowledging that the koreans are better at this game. Also, do you play this game to make money off tournament prizes? or do you play this game becasue you love the game and because you want to strive to be the best? | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
On June 18 2011 12:54 syrianrue wrote: CatZ's explanation seems like a weasly way to avoid competition to me; unless cataz can provide us with a reason as to why you think the NA can not compete with the koreans is it because they spend more time at this game? personally, i dont think so. in counter strike, on the server where i play (NA) i see kids with no life who would play all day, everyday. so the koreans in sc2 is better because they spend more time at this game? if so, perhaps you just lack the dedication? Are they more creative at this games and are more willing to try new things? Or is is because their tournaments have larger prize pool, so therefore, it incensitize their players to spend more time, more energy, and more brain power to strife to better themselves over the opponenets they encounter? if so, couldn't NA simply provide better tournament prizes to encourage the NA players? I really hate seeing these ridiculous self defeating explanation acknowledging that the koreans are better at this game. Also, do you play this game to make money off tournament prizes? or do you play this game becasue you love the game and because you want to strive to be the best? Should a basketball player in India have to beat the players in the US in order to make a living in India? By your argument US basketball teams should be able to go to India and win all their pro income. This would kill Indian basketball, but they should just L2P right? | ||
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XenoX101
Australia729 Posts
The real thing is that not every big league should be a global league, it doesn't matter who is competing, Koreans, Europeans, Whatever.. The end result is that only the best players in the entire world will win the prize money, that is not a feasible framework for any pro gamers except for the absolute best, and makes it extremely difficult for up and coming players to make a living. This is where people will argue "Oh but if you just train harder you can be the best and if you are truly talented up and comer you can easily make it to the top" No, this isn't realistic, even if all the countries had an equal amount of best players, the top 8-16 would still be the only players making money in the prize pool.[/b] Mid-level pros wouldn't win any tournaments that pay out if this is where the future of esports is going (and to suggest that everyone can be top-level is ambitious but again highly unrealistic). Furthermore, how much fun is it really to know that every league has the same players, the same winners and the same level of play (no, no mid-level play those players won't bother in this format), we need a variety of leagues to suit a variety of players, it is really that simple and even Korea knows this. Why are there two tournaments, Code A and Code S in the GSL, Both paying out a reasonable amount? It's because they understand the top level players shouldn't be in direct competition with the lower level players. We can achieve the same simply by making some leagues nation specific or state specific (unless they are willing to fly overseas and without us paying for the flights -.-), and as mentioned umpteen times earlier this is precisely how other sports accomodate to the various levels of play, world champions, national champions, state champions etc. Why do you think there was a WCG USA on top of the WCG World? It's for this same reason. And just think if there was no segregation of WCG USA and WCG World, you would probably not have heard of Day[9] or Artosis, this was their claim to fame. | ||
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syrianrue
United States56 Posts
it's more due to the physical differences of the races. or do you think u.s. basketball team with only white players can easily defeat a european team? i dont think so. now if the african nations have enough money to provide a nurturing environment for their athletes... wouldn't you think they would be able to compete? the problem is... they dont have the finance, they're not a first world country. -------------------------------------- America HAS money. if america really want to develop better sc2 players, they certainly can. perhaps instead of arguing back and forth and thinking of ways to deny the other players from coming to NA to compete..... the time might be better spent on how we could encourage/accelerate the infrastructure of the NA sc2 competitive scene. more prizes, more sponsors, more public exposrues. ^------ this might help. On June 18 2011 13:00 AKA. wrote: Should a basketball player in India have to beat the players in the US in order to make a living in India? By your argument US basketball teams should be able to go to India and win all their pro income. This would kill Indian basketball, but they should just L2P right? | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On June 18 2011 13:00 AKA. wrote: Should a basketball player in India have to beat the players in the US in order to make a living in India? By your argument US basketball teams should be able to go to India and win all their pro income. This would kill Indian basketball, but they should just L2P right? thank you. lets take your example, provided India's basketball had the acceptance / the following that the NBA has or similar in smaller numbers, India's basketball if left alone could potentially eventually compete with any other country, we have the fanbase and the following in NA and EU to make our own scenes grow stronger and more powerful too. | ||
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svi
405 Posts
most people wouldn't care about watching matches like catz vs drewbie or cruncher vs fenix. his example of a $3000 florida only tournament is a total joke. nobody on the internet would give a damn about the tournament, so how is that tournament organizer supposed to make a return from their investment? you can't field big prize tournaments for players that can't draw flies to shit. | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
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